Selling into schools is rarely as straightforward as most teams expect.

District leaders are navigating competing priorities, long approval cycles, staffing challenges, and increasing pressure to justify every decision. At the same time, EdTech companies are trying to build trust, move deals forward, and prove their value in a crowded market.

Nancy Livingston, CEO of the National Summer School Initiative (NSSI), joins Elana for an honest conversation about what actually drives K-12 purchasing decisions and why so many organizations misunderstand the realities of selling into education.

Drawing from experience on both sides of the table, Nancy shares what surprised her most after moving from district leadership into sales, where deals typically stall, and why trust-building looks very different in education than in other industries.

The conversation explores the tension between empathy and momentum, the hidden complexity of procurement, and the role marketing plays in helping districts feel informed, confident, and ready to move forward.

If your team is trying to better understand how decisions really happen inside schools, this episode offers a grounded look at the process behind the partnership.

What You’ll Learn

• Why K-12 sales cycles are far more complex and relationship-driven than most teams expect
• How empathy, trust, and timing shape whether deals move forward or stall out
• Why the status quo is often a stronger competitor than another vendor
• What district leaders actually look for before committing to a partnership
• How procurement, funding structures, and internal approvals quietly influence decision-making
• The role marketing plays in building credibility long before a sales conversation begins

Why it Matters

Too many organizations approach education sales as a faster-moving commercial process. But school systems do not make decisions in isolation, and they rarely move quickly without trust, alignment, and internal clarity.

Nancy’s perspective is a valuable reminder that successful partnerships are built through patience, responsiveness, and a real understanding of how districts operate. For marketers especially, this shifts the work away from pushing urgency and toward creating the kind of credibility and education that helps decisions move forward over time.

Hi everyone, welcome back to another episode of All Things Marketing and Education. Today I have a special episode for you. I am talking with Nancy Livingston. She is the CEO of the National Summer School Initiative, known as NSSI.

I have the privilege of working alongside Nancy as a marketing lead. And Nancy has recently taken over all of the sales initiatives within her organization, selling to schools and districts. And together, we're coming to you to really tell you what we do on the backside. What does it truly take to sell in this market? And how should marketing and sales work together for this?

I'm going to tell you a little bit of a spoiler. It takes deep collaboration. It takes trying things that align with market shifts. It takes using that data based on our past initiatives to inform our future moves and then doing it over and over again. So I am here to debunk that.

we have it all figured out. It's all about deep collaboration. And in fast moving markets like this, it's about doing things, learning from them, and getting better and better. I love this conversation because it is so, so honest. It's not about theory. It's about actually doing.

I would love you to stick around to the end where we talk about, okay, let me stop there. We're almost done. And don't miss the lightning round at the end. Nancy shares one signal that tells that.

And don't miss the lightning round at the end. Nancy's chairs one signal that tells her a deal is actually moving forward. And it's a really good one. So enjoy the conversation.

Hello, Nancy, welcome to the show. Welcome to All Things Marketing and Education, and I'm excited to have this conversation with you.

Thank you, I'm excited to be here today.

Yeah, and we were just talking pre show. I'm like, you know, this is an informal conversation, but I'm just so glad you're willing to share and have this transparency because it's this this episode is going to be a little bit about a sneak peek behind the hood of working of what it's really like to roll up your sleeves. And we can listen to so many podcasts about how you sell and how you market. But very rarely do we get into it.

Okay.

this is hard or I tried this or we're still figuring it out because it's changing all the time. So for those of you listening, this is going to be a kind of behind the scenes honest conversation and I'm excited to get into it. ⁓ Before we get into all of that, I want to talk a little bit about your background because I think it'll help.

Thank you.

Yeah.

others,

especially as we think about education in particular. So you recently stepped into leading sales into the National Summer School Institute. Right, pause. Why did I say Institute? Initiative, right? Okay, I'll take that from the top, Bill. I usually don't do this,

That's

Yes, initiative. Yeah, I was going to correct you, but you got it.

So before we get into it, I want to talk a little bit about your background. So you recently stepped into a leading sales role within the National Summer School Initiative, NSSI.

You have a deep background in education. And I'm wondering, like, as you were making this transition, where before you were leading the helm, and now you're leading the helm and leading sales as well, did you have one of these moments that you were like, gosh, I really didn't expect that to begin with, as you're really navigating the complexities of selling into K-12 schools and districts?

That's such a good question. So I started my career as a teacher and moved up and was a CAO and a chief schools officer for some networks in New York and in Tennessee. And in that role, I was the buyer, right? And managing relationships with partners and vendors was, I would probably say like the 10th thing on my list, right? I had to manage principles. I had to look at data. I had to do classroom observations.

Not had to, but I got to. And you know, like that's where my time was, you know, responding to parents, coaching team members. And so getting back to the vendor who wants to show you this really new, cool thing just doesn't always hit the priority list each week. And now I am that person. And I think one of the things that has been most surprising for me, and I should realize it because I've been on the other side, was just how long that timeline is

to get from introduction to in partnership with an organization, with a district, or the school. And it shouldn't be that surprising for me, but now experiencing from the other side where that is your main thing every day in and day out is building partnerships. You're trying to work towards that goal. You're trying to bring on ⁓ new partners. And that's the thing you're concentrating most. So it's hard. ⁓ can almost, even though I was sat in the seat, and I can really empathize with that buyer.

Um, I, know, you're, you're away from it and you forget what their, their day to day is like. And so I think one of the things I've been trying to do, um, is instead of being so focused on like, how do I accelerate this timeline or how do I move it to close? It's well, we're going on a journey for a while together and let's, let's narrate what that journey is going to look like. Here's what we're going to start with. Here's what you're going to first learn about us. Here's what you're going to learn about us next. And as we go through those steps together, we learn more about each other.

our needs, the challenges our partners are facing. And then I think we can, ⁓ the timeline will still be long, but I think because we'll be pasting it and identifying what's the right thing to do right now, and that fits their timeline as well, and transparently talking about timelines, I think it'll get us out of that, I've got to accelerate it, I need to move it to close. And it really is about what is it going to take to be partners and what do we need to learn about each other?

to see if a partnership is actually right.

Yeah, and as soon as you start to accelerate it, well not unnecessarily, but at a speed that they're not willing to go, you can jeopardize it all. And I know that you coming from an educator background just talking about...

Yes.

hey, I've been on the other side. I know I'm juggling 10 million other things. So that empathy is critical. But I also think on the district and school level side, they can almost smell it. It's like, you just want to close a deal. You might not care about me. And I love how you talked about its journey. And for those of you that are listening, yes, we know we have long sales cycles. We want to make sure that we are meeting them with what they want throughout the process.

But know it's gonna be multi-touch, it's gonna be very highly customizable. ⁓ Many of the people on our show talk about it being a partnership of really caring about, we've got some issues, how can we help step in? Or maybe we're not the right partner for right now.

Yeah. Yes. That piece is really, I think, vital. I think a lot of people in education ⁓ know John Cotter's theory of change. And so when you are trying to manage change, you start with a small guiding coalition. You're kind of rolling out one piece at a time, getting people really excited, getting some small wins before you can actually scale that change. And a lot of new superintendents, when they come in, they look at across, what can I do? Superintendent tenures are short.

And they really have to think about what is the pace of change they're trying to drive and how do the different strategies align to that strategy. But if you go too fast, you're going to have like organ rejection, right? And we don't want that to happen. we might start building some of those relationships with superintendents or chief academic officers, find out where they are in that strategic plan. Okay, maybe it's in two summers that we come up. Maybe we do a small pilot.

one summer so you can see what it's like working with us. And we do that with a really influential teacher who can talk about what it was like working with NSSI, what they learned, what they thought about the materials. ⁓ Because teachers still have a ton of influence about that ability to scale within a district. And partly being a summer only organization right now, ⁓ we have to look for those smaller opportunities sometimes before we can go to a bigger one that aligns with that superintendent's time.

Yeah, when we build communities, my colleague Porter Palmer has told me this ⁓ phrase is moving at the speed of trust. And that is critical because what you're doing, every single touch point is saying, hey, let me hear about your problem. Let me hear about your challenge. Let's move through it. ⁓ Let's get into your background a little bit because we foreshadowed it. But I imagine we have some pros where you can empathize.

Yes. ⁓

Yes.

But there might also be some cons when it comes from an education background. Are there times where it's made it a little harder or are there times that you're like, oh God, I got this because I've been there. Can talk a little bit about it? Because some of our audience comes from, they've been educators, they've been classroom educators, they've been school and district leaders, and now they might be transitioning over in the education and tech brand side.

Yes.

Yes.

Yeah.

you know, being able to at least say, okay, I'm going to recognize this and go from there.

I mean, I think the biggest advantages, I'll talk advantages first, but ⁓ for me it's just been like, I have a lot of knowledge about teaching and learning. And I'm like really passionate about effective pedagogy, about the curriculum and the content we put in front of children on a day-to-day basis. And I think that people can see that in me when I'm talking to them about what we do in the books in our program and the math problems and how the math program is structured. Like it gets me up in the morning, it's exciting.

⁓ And so that is a place where I can build connection with people really quickly and build that expertise and pedagogy and content. I think the challenge sometimes is I can over identify with their hesitation. ⁓ Perhaps it's like I've been a skeptical buyer and I know what that's like. so sometimes I've given too much space for people to make decisions instead of

really helping to shape the decisions they need to make and making sure I'm providing the right information at the right time to them. And I think I've gotten better at this, but I think initially I like, I don't know if it's the right fit right now versus what are the layers they're telling me as they're telling me about their summer programming and how do I unpack those layers of information to see if there's an entry point.

⁓ But I definitely can over identify on the skeptical side at times.

Awesome. And as you were talking, I was thinking in my head as a vendor, gosh, it's so nice to almost talk to a peer or a former peer, someone who gets it. And someone who like when you say, I've gotten I'm passionate about this, you can't take that you can't even teach that. And so I love that, you know, that authenticity that former educators will bring into this role.

But at the same time, it can be a little hindering because a lot of things you're learning on the fly too. And you might be overly empathetic in certain times. You're like, yeah, I get you. Like maybe we'll talk in two years, but a salesperson will be like, two days, I'm giving you two days. All right. Well, why don't we move into... ⁓

Okay.

Yeah.

A question that I've been thinking about, and I actually mentioned it last on my last podcast around competitors in this space. And somebody actually I'll put a link to the show notes, but someone in on ⁓ LinkedIn talked about a lot of times other education organizations, ed talk organizations, think they're competing against other renders and they can name and you are, we can surely name like, you know, people that have similar products and services.

But in reality, your biggest competitor is that status quo. It's like, well, we've already always been doing it this way, and that inertia of changing. ⁓ Or, and sometimes in your case too, it's also the status quo, but it's like, I can just find some people internally to try to do it. ⁓ So talk to me little bit about how you've seen this play out and how it.

Mm-hmm.

changes your approach to messaging and positioning because you are not alone. Every education organization is dealing with it. And how do we get it to be almost like a hot button issue because you've been in that seat and there's 10 million other things to think about.

Yeah.

Yeah. No, I 100 % agree that our biggest competitor is doing what they've been doing and continuing to, and then that means two things. One, they've built it themselves or they are as a more of different schools in the district can do different things. And so what happens is they don't really have a way to measure the total efficacy of their summer program or what about different programs worked because everyone was doing something different.

So we definitely see that a lot. A couple of things that have been helpful, you know, as we've been having those conversations. One is districts have adopted HQIM during the school year. They've seen the benefit of having teachers do the same thing across schools. Like, ⁓ we should do that in our summer program, right? Like there becomes a understanding that like it's okay that in the summer program, we're also doing something similar. The second is really on the opportunity cost side.

So even if, let's say they had had a team of teachers build the summer program that had been used, ⁓ that team may not have the capacity to go back every year, really study the data, make changes to it, make sure it's also usable for the other teachers across the district in a really easy way. And because we're focused on summer, we get to do that. Like we get to look at all the data every year. We can make those updates to the program. So what our partner gets the following year is better than what they got before.

⁓ And then we can keep measuring, did those changes have an impact on student learning? Did those changes have an impact on teacher growth? And so they're able to outsource that to us. And when they outsource that to us, they now have a lot more time to do a couple of things. One, they can get ready for the school year. They can start planning their PD for the summer that they're going to use to get their teachers on board during the year. So that's one thing that we see. The other is...

When you think about summer school programming, generally speaking, there's an academic portion and an enrichment portion. If you can outsource your academic side to a trusted partner, you can really focus on what do want that enrichment piece to look like? What gets kids excited about coming to school? What are the partnerships, community organizations we want to bring into the summer programming? And that is really community specific. That's hard to scale one product to do that because of those differences across communities.

where on learning multiplication tables and learning how to do division better or reading a novel, those are things we can do. There's a lot of ⁓ scalability across that work. And so we can save people time so they can focus on that other aspect. That has been helpful as helping to frame ⁓ opportunity costs for people, their time. ⁓ You're getting time back. You're not just getting this product, you are getting time back, which all of us need back. ⁓ And then I think...

You know, I think this, ⁓ you know, this question of switching costs, like if we're using one curriculum and now we're going to use a different one. ⁓ Teachers are used to this and now they have to change. I think for us, what we've, ⁓ it's really important for us is that all of our materials are easy to use. It is not going to be hard to wrap your head around all the pieces. I think one of the gaps in some of the HQIM right now,

is it takes so much training to unpack all of the pieces and learn how to do this routine and this routine, that it does take many hours of professional learning and coaching on each aspect. And sometimes the materials are really dense and you have to like wade through it. And so partly, you know, our value proposition is look, this is going to be easy for your teachers to use it straightforward. There's clarity. There's also choice for teachers.

⁓ And I think when they see it, they're like, ⁓ this is not, this is giving some, our folks easier to use materials, especially as teachers are teaching out of grade level sometimes out of their typical school in the summertime. But I think we are, you know, being able to show how you're making it easier and not adding a new burden in learning the program.

Yeah, and I'm just taking notes here because you're saying a lot of things and some of what I do is like, okay, I got to do this, this, and this and it's really helpful. think, you know, switching costs are huge. ⁓ The opportunity costs is sometimes when we talk to schools and districts, they don't value their time in a way like, I don't know how to explain it. But like for me, from an agency perspective, I'm like, regardless of what you do, here's how much time it'll take. Here's how much it costs you.

And then sometimes there's also the, we did it. We can check it off our list or strategic plan. But there's not that ⁓ innovation afterwards. There's not that time for reflection to really say, how can we improve? Or how does it directly link to the things that we care about? And so it's kind of like doing it for doing its sake is one.

really trying to combat that myth a bit, making sure that you can prove it's super easy to implement. You're not gonna need 10 hours, you're not gonna need all these time of PD just to get people feeling comfortable at the bare minimum of using the product. And then we also worked on just, all of that together, let's look at what like...

Yes.

what it would cost you. And so what I thought was fun that we did is we did a build versus buy. So and we made it super easy. Sometimes you can make it a checklist. We actually created a calculator too. You can even create a quiz about it too. So people when your buying season is happening and you're coming up against this and if number one competitor is I can just do it internally or I can do what I've always been doing before.

Yep.

Mm-hmm. Yep.

come up with something to say, let's be neutral. Let's just help you figure it out. And we can actually assess the costs on both sides. Sometimes it actually might make sense for them to go another way. And they'll respect you more for that. And it's a great conversation. And again, it's one part in the journey of a very long journey.

Totally.

the

Yeah.

So I just wanted to pull out the, you mentioned things like switching costs, like really looking at ROI in particular, making sure it's easy to implement as possible. ⁓ Those are the things that we're trying to navigate when we're like, okay, status quo, let's hear how it's working for you. Yeah, and I think the harder part is how do we make this a top tier issue?

What are you getting out of it?

And so sometimes really aligning it with the latest research. Hey, did you know that summer school does X, Y, Z? And it aligns with a lot of the problems you're seeing in the academic school year. So really for those of you that say, I don't have my internal research, start making sure you're grabbing and curating from other research out there. Like we just did a webinar on the latest research around it and walked people through it. So that part of your job is to demystify and make it

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep.

a top issue because they're not going to be aware of how your product aligns with everything and what it could potentially do.

No.

Right. Yeah, I mean, I think that ⁓

And I was like, huh, something has happened that this information hasn't gotten out there or hasn't lived. And then how do we quickly tell that story and share with people so that they know they're making strong decisions when they're designing their programs.

Yeah, and I can't think of a better role that content marketing plays. So we have this content engine that maybe starts with a webinar, might be a live event, might be video based series, might be social media, might be email complementing it, might be paid. So those of you that are orchestrating lots of things in your marketing funnel, really, how do we become top of funnel? How do we become?

Mm-hmm.

helpful in this space that we care about and content marketing really helps. And then we're just saying, hey, it helps you close deals too, if we can justify with the research. All right. ⁓ I'm going to ask you a really hard question because it's something that probably changes day to day. ⁓ And we're not experts. was just, we were kind of talking before and we're rolling up our sleeves together and really saying, OK, what works this quarter actually may not work next quarter.

Yeah.

you

Yeah.

Yes.

The acceleration

of everything influencing K-12 education is the fastest I've ever seen. But with all of that said, I know people are always asking, hey, what's actually working? What have you found that actually closes deals in the pipeline the most? Like if you can prove X, Y, Z, or if you do this combination, I know this is a stupid question because it's not always the same thing, but I hope it sparks something. like, what's that?

Yeah.

Yeah.

combo that you're like, gosh, generally if I hit these things, I have like an 80 % chance of closing a deal.

I was just going through our deal list from this year and we were at board meeting at the end of April and I was trying to get ready ⁓ and some of our deals are still getting to close ⁓ and just trying to figure out how long did each cycle take and ⁓ what was the pathway? How many touch points did we have? What were those touch points? Who was involved on our team? ⁓ And I sort of the... ⁓

There's a couple of things that I feel like have been most important to closing the deals. One is this trust aspect that they trust you and what you're doing. like, think the trust starts with seeing data of like, what results have you gotten with other partners, with other districts? How, what's your renewal rate with those partners when we're able to say, this partner has come back four years in a row or five years in row. They've been a partner with.

In Texas, they don't care that much that New York City Public Schools is our biggest partner. And so which is great, which is fine. And so I think it's just one of those things that, you know, do you have validity in their context and can you point them to references to people they can go talk to? And that's actually one of the best things is making those connections so we so people can share what has worked. We have videos that do that, but I feel like it's that one on one phone call sometimes that really does make a difference. ⁓

The other thing around the closing of the deals, what I have seen is sometimes there is a sense of like the urgency on the partner side. The way summer school budgeting sometimes is done is later than you would expect. It's not necessarily early in the budget. know, they don't always know in October what their budget is going to be for summer school. And they may not know that till March. ⁓ And so

being flexible and giving them enough information early so that when March comes, they're able to make a decision and have the information they need to move forward. I think it's really important. But then things start moving pretty quickly. ⁓ But when that urgency is coming from the partner, you're able to meet it. we're working with a new partner right now. And we have a lot of ducks in a row to get ready for them. And we've been incredibly responsive and incredibly helpful for them as they've been getting ready to bring something to their board.

And so I think being able to be responsive, not a 24 hour turnaround. Here's the two hour turnaround on the thing you requested. ⁓ So sometimes it goes slow and then it goes really fast and you've got to be able to be ready to move fast when they need you to. And I think that does show trust. And then that's what they also expect of us in the summer when we were running the summer programs. That's a good indicator for them. I think where we have seen ⁓

deal stall, and I think this is a little on my own learning curve in sales, ⁓ has been understanding the different procurement processes for different districts. ⁓ And what does it need board approval? And who are the decision makers involved? And when any of the steps or requirements aren't clear, ⁓ it slows things down, but it also can prevent things from moving forward. Because the right people haven't necessarily

been in the room or hearing everything. And I was thinking about it, it was interesting. When I was a CIO and I would go to buy something, I'd always have to go back to the finance team like every time, be like, what is the process? What do I do again? And it was like a reminder to me recently of like, ⁓ all of my curriculum people who are thinking about math and reading all day in the districts we work with also probably need the reminder too. And so sometimes I work into the assumption that they know what their financial.

process is for the procurement team, but they may or may not, right? And so I think asking those questions upfront and earlier in the process is something I've got to be better about so ⁓ that we can avoid any of those issues.

Yeah, and maybe going back to like that magic hard question I asked you around like what closes deals the most. ⁓ You said definitely the pure X, having that credibility, making sure that you're facilitating introductions, but maybe also on the content marketing side we're displaying it as well. So just in case you want to listen to things on demand. ⁓

Mm-hmm.

making sure they have the information when they need it and being proactive. I think that that's really key. And you're even talking about some nuances in your buying cycle and you're not alone. We can talk about generalizations of the K-12 buying cycle. Yes, but everyone's kind of a little different. And I love how you're pointing out yours is different. And then we need together from marketing and sales to say, okay, this is the information they need at this time. How do we want to do it?

⁓ Are there sales enablement things that that marketing can do to give you stuff as well? So I love kind of a little bit of all of that ⁓ You said procurement is always the thing that kind of bites you ⁓ But I know I know another thing that bites us is funding so they could be bought on and they're like yes Okay, I want to work with you and we've decided it and we need it and I know if I work with you We're gonna you know do all the things we need to hit our goals

But my gosh, last minute, can't find funding.

Right.

It's really, ⁓ if you look at some of the districts across the country, whether they're NSSI partners or not NSSI partners, who run effective summer school programs, one of the things they're all really good at is braiding funds. So they pull a little bit of Title I and they pull a little bit of Title II and there may be some Title III and some Title IV and they have a state funding stream and they have a grant.

fund, like they get the Chamber of Commerce involved and they're giving a little bit of grants to support summer programming. And I, though, you know, Tuscaloosa, Alabama is one that's really, really does this quite well. Madison in Wisconsin has done this, like there's when, but that is not always known by everybody how to do that and how to do the accounting for that. And it's something I think we as a team are also educating ourselves on so we can give people better recommendations.

Have you looked here? Or did you know about this? Or do you know how to access this? And I think that more more clarity we can give partners in different avenues, they can become more sophisticated than in braiding those funds from the different ⁓ streams.

Yeah, and as I start, you I work with a good amount of education organizations and sometimes they say, we want to work with all states. And then like, gosh, you know, every state has different procurement needs. They've got different funding sources. They have different goals. Their governor has set different initiatives that they said that they're held accountable for. So a lot of the times we try to work together and say, okay, what are those key states you want to focus on first?

Yes.

Okay.

your beachhead, you know? And then how can we attract them and bring in that whole of content marketing, but also from your outbound perspective, what can we do to reach out to people, ⁓ to target them at conferences, to have emails, phone calls, all of those things? So.

Yes.

focus is better in so many different ways, especially as you were trying to think about, gosh, funding sources. Not only do they need to figure it out, but your team internally needs to know 50 plus ways to do it. And that is so hard.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, right. We could like, we couldn't, we're not like, we're too lean to be able to have that level of expertise. And I think we're able, but we can be experts in certain places and really target our, our limited resources in those places. I think this year we took like our first attempt at being more geographic specific in about four different places. And we saw some results from that. And we saw more traction in those areas because of that focus.

⁓ And I'm really excited about next year because I think we're sort of just like tip of the iceberg, right? We, you know, like now I can see, okay, these are the conferences and then this is how the webinars are going to align to the conferences. And this is how the email and my newsletter can align to those pieces as well. And there's like a more consistent story and it's hitting the same people multiple times. Because you need to hear the same thing multiple times before you're like, okay, yeah, I want to talk to those people. So.

Yeah, and

landing pages are your best friend marketers, segmenting emails are your best friend folks, know, targeted paid campaigns, all of these things will work to help get into that depth too.

Awesome. Well, I mean, that was the question I even had is like, we're to get into the whole depth versus breadth thing. You you want to be known and it's like, you know, if you go to a PR agency and everyone says, well, my audience is everyone, that's the number one flag for a PR agency. They're like, no, but who is your goal? And how do we measure success? And maybe there's some low hanging fruit we can easily identify. And maybe there's some places we want to identify in the long term.

Yes.

Right. Yeah.

Okay.

because it has a longer potential for our success as an organization. So these are the questions we should be thinking about. And then also in K-12, we know that the top four or five states are targeted by every single ed tech company. And what's my chance and can my organization scale if I get a big deal quickly? So those are all questions I'd love for you all listening to talk internally. I'm sure some of these have come up, I'm sure.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

But it's always good to understand, especially as we start thinking about the next academic school year and buying cycle is like, all right, do we go broad? If we're having success on more of a focused approach, how do we expand? To what level do we expand? ⁓ good stuff also makes my head hurt. ⁓ All right, so I'm gonna kind of bridge the gap here in this question. For marketers that are trying to support sales,

Yeah.

What you know, and you now on the sales side, what do you wish more teams understood about how decisions really get made inside districts? You know, like, I think maybe it's also it's a twofold question of like, how do you would like marketing to work with you from a sales capacity? ⁓ And

I don't know, I think just let's start there because I think that there's other things around like making sure that your team approaching schools and districts really understood the sales cycle and their top challenges too, but.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

I think one thing that is important about who we are as an organization is that we are a nonprofit and we are a mission and we are beholden to that mission first to accelerate student learning and deepen teacher practice through summer learning. So we are always, ⁓ that's like that impact and being able to impact those two things is just something that's what I think about all day. ⁓

And I think as we are trying to spread that mission, and somebody's like, sell the mission versus sell the product. ⁓ We're saying like summer is part is part of your teaching and learning strategy, right? When we're saying that to a district, we need to get integrated into the other parts that you're doing. And we need to be able to tell that story through the marketing of what happens when it becomes part of the strategy and how.

That is a change teacher practice. How does it accelerate student learning? And I think ⁓ that is hard to do, I think, right? Because it feels more esoteric or I don't know. ⁓ And so I think what it's been really good as we're continuing to work together and as the marketing strategy aligns with the sales strategy ⁓ is telling real stories from our

partners and lifting up the work of the people we already work with and sharing that and sharing the impact they are seeing. ⁓ You know, we haven't there's I was with talking about the perspective partner recently and I was like, I'll probably know I'll be in the Bay this summer and let like, let's set up ⁓ a visit. And she's like, could we also go visit another partner? And I was like, ⁓ yes, we can arrange that. And so you can because you're going to be a first year partner with us. You want to go see it at

a partner who's been doing it for five years to like see what that difference might look like, what journey you might be on as you continue to work with NSSI. ⁓ And I was like, this will be great. How do we set up more of these learning opportunities for our partners, which is also really helpful if you're going deep in an area. ⁓ But I really want to figure out how do we lift up more of the stories of what our partners ⁓ are seeing because of integrating summer into their teaching and learning strategy.

Yeah, and if that is the thesis, it's like, how do we then take that on the conference circuit where we're at but we're also talking to people at networking events and booths? ⁓ How do we elevate that in an experiential way as possible through video and case studies? ⁓ How do we get on other like how do we

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

do it with the lens of really authentically telling the story. And like you said, people want to see it implemented with people like districts that look like them. Or like, okay, Texas wants to see Texas, but rural wants to see rural, small wants to see small, ⁓ diverse wants to see diverse. So like those are the aspects where, know, okay, yes, we've done it multiple times. Let's show you.

Mm-hmm.

You ready? Yes!

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

⁓

so I love that that being like the rolling kind of common denominator of all of this and, it's the most authentic way, to be honest. That's why I love kind of working and partnering with you as you come from an educator background, you know, that that's what sold you and you can get that passion to shine through. We're not just trying to sell it for selling sake. This keeps us up at night. Yeah. ⁓ well,

Mm-hmm.

Let's talk about what's next. So there, everything is changing all the time with sales and marketing. Even right now, we're doing a last minute campaign targeting specific states. We're jumping in to help people find funding. There's all sorts of things that we're trying to be reactive, but also be proactive and be agile enough that we can spot trends and go, let's try one more thing. Anything we can do to inform the next year's plans as much as possible. So what do you?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

hope or with some plans kind of for the next evolution of sales and marketing or what we're going and I can talk a little bit about what we're doing as well.

Yeah, yeah,

that would be great. ⁓ No, I do think doubling down on those state-specific strategies is really important and making sure that the calendar for everything really aligns. mean, Alana, you always bring out the calendar. You're like, here's the calendar. When is this thing going out? And when is this thing? And how does this talk to this? ⁓ So I think being really committed to that calendar ⁓ and what emails have to flow at various times, what communications, what... ⁓

you know, how are we leveraging LinkedIn to push out some of those messages as well? and then to those more targeted audiences, I'm not the SEO expert of how that's all gonna work, but that is part of it and leveraging our resources there. I think the other thing is we, you know, one of the things this year is different team members on our lean NSSI team have gotten to be involved in sales and marketing or sales in different ways.

And some of them have found, like love certain aspects of it. And coming up with a plan, like, how are we leveraging our different team members who can really talk about this nerdy thing in math and get them in front of people? ⁓ know, Carrie Hubbard, is our chief program officer, is an incredible presenter and really knows a ton about instructional leadership. So how do we get her into these states specifically so people can see the quality of what we do?

And we've done it a little bit, we haven't done it enough. And we need to accelerate ⁓ people, the velocity of people like seeing us do our work. So they're like, they kind of know more what NSSI is all about. So.

Yeah. And that also helps with implementation handoff too, because then they end up having a relationship before they even sign a contract and they respect to them as well. So when Carrie jumps on a call or Robert from the math side, it really helps showcase the passion, not just that you have, but that your team has and the expertise behind it. ⁓ I thought that's what you're going to say too, in the beginning, when I asked you what closed deals, because I know that when you bring a bigger team on, that also gives you a

Bye bye.

Yes.

as help at

time.

as well. ⁓ I think as reflecting on this question, coordination is key. but making sure you're coordinating to a point where you're not just doing things to say you're so busy, and you're doing all of these things. It's how do they all help each other and complement each other and not cannibalize each other. Because sometimes we work for brands and we just give them content. And sometimes they'll just launch it all at the same time. And their launch is just, you know, and I'm like, but what

and

Great.

in it. Yep.

You know, so give the space for your new whatever you're launching campaign content to breathe and then coordinate that and make sure you have a promotion around multiple channels. So I'd rather everybody listening today not go and say I'm gonna do 20 million campaigns for the next academic school year. It's more about how can I do less?

Thank

and make sure I have time to really promote it and really look at what's working. So less is more, coordination, getting ahead is super important. We're all a really lean team. I've been lucky to partner with NSSI on a fractional basis, but we get a lot done. So it's all about organization, prioritization, and having a team that's just like, okay, this isn't working.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

let's jump into something else or let's try something. So making sure that if your team is resistant to change, you got to professionally develop them or create some culture that they're excited about trying new things and innovating. Cause that's kind of all what we do is we will build on the things that work, but at the same time, you're still trying to figure out, okay, let's try this new thing because this is no longer working or we ran into a snag.

Yeah.

I think

this spring we canceled one thing in March, we're not going to do that anymore. And then we changed something for our May event. ⁓ And then we're like, you asked a really good question of me, you have these assets of your mentor teachers. How are you leveraging that strength? And then we started iterating on some ideas of how to leverage that strength more effectively. that's leading to this new campaign that we're going to try. So I think there's... ⁓

just being flexible, being willing to change things as new information comes in ⁓ and just being pushed to be creative is really powerful.

Yeah. And the thing I think that we're constantly and everyone here, even if you're small or a large team listening to this, all you're trying to do is say, how can I scale what's working? How can I do more, but in the most effective way? And so you got to build in time for reflection, but you got to really look at what is unique for your brand. And for us, we started looking at NSSI and saying, gosh, you've got some mentor teachers that can scale on the ground. What are we doing? Maybe we can build in some more advocates, maybe, you all of the things.

Mm-hmm.

So I want you all to think about an inventory. It's not just your own marketing team. It's everyone around you and your ecosystem. Yeah. And what's unique to your brand. So I'll leave it with that. There's so much more we can talk about with marketing, but I hope for those of you listening, this was not a, we've got it all figured out conversation, but I want you to understand that this takes a lot of collaboration between marketing and sales. And we got to figure out how is this year in this buying

Okay.

Yeah, it's your asset map.

cycle going to be different from next year? What are the insights that we can do to inform next year? There's all sorts of goodness I hope you took away from just us rolling up our sleeves together. So thank you, Nancy. ⁓ Well, you're not going anywhere yet because we end all of our podcasts with something what we call a lightning round. It sounds very violent. I swear we're not going to kill you with this, but it's real fun. Couple of questions. Just don't overthink them. Kind of one word, one phrase that comes to mind.

Thank you, Alana. This was fun. It was not scary at all.

Yes.

Okay.

So here we go. ⁓ One sales assumption in ed tech that you just think is absolutely wrong.

⁓ Swag, go ahead and grab a t-shirt and that'll close the deal, right? ⁓ One common misconception about summer learning in particular.

You get a lot of them.

I

like, which one am I picking here? You're like, pick the first one. That academic work isn't fun.

And maybe fun doesn't improve learning outcomes. ⁓ The best signal that a deal is actually moving forward. When they do this, you're like, okay, I've got a really good shot here.

Yeah.

I think when they see the curriculum and they're like, ⁓ this makes sense. And there's just like a relief, their shoulders drop in that moment. Yeah.

rather than a scowl, right?

And one marketing activity that you think consistently helps sales?

Anyway.

Bye!

I ⁓ think the I think the webinars are powerful tools ⁓ and I think that's something we have to keep building on to figure out right content, right time. ⁓ But I think they are really powerful.

Yeah. And I think the mix of partner webinars, internal where we're putting them on ourselves, just inviting our audience. ⁓ And then what I want to get into is on-demand webinars too. So there's so many things that we can do with webinars across the board. They're really powerful, but it's about consistency too. So sometimes we work, I work with other clients and it's like three events and they're like, you know what, you really haven't built it up yet. ⁓ So consistency in marketing is key too.

Yeah.

⁓ All right, ⁓ would you rather, would you rather get one big district sale or five smaller ones? And we're talking about the same amount.

I think it depends on where those five are. If they're all five located in the same area in one of our target states, I'd take that actually.

Yeah, and part of me is like, gosh, if I have five smaller deals, that's five times the opportunity to upsell too. ⁓ But the big district, sometimes people are like, you're partnering with LA USD or you were partnered with, know, so there's New York City, whatever. Okay, last but not least, I know that you're based in your hometown of Nashville. What is the most underrated thing to do in Nashville?

Mm-hmm.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Like we know what people do generally. You see them. You see them on the strip. What's the local perspective here?

Yeah, they go to Broadway. Yeah. Yes.

⁓ One of my favorite things is to go to a place called Station Inn on Sunday night for the pickin' party. And musicians just come and they play and they sit in the middle and you can just come and bring your instrument and you can play and you can just come in and listen and grab a beer, grab some popcorn. ⁓ And it's like sometimes just amazing people will come in and you're like, my gosh, I'm here. This is happening. ⁓

And it's a funny little building that's teeny tiny amongst all these like tall hotels. So it is like old Nashville preserved.

that. And just for a moment, I'm like, what are we picking? And then I was like, okay, shut up, Philana.

⁓

We have a lot of pick and parties. all start in like end of April. The pick and parties start at Older Park in town. They're great.

⁓

well, Nancy, thank you so much for coming on the show. I appreciate like what we're talking about in marketing you are demonstrating right now is just like innovation. Let's be agile. Let's share. And we're all in it to help each other in education, too. So thank you for being a guest. And for those of you that are listening, you know, the number one thing I ask you all is I don't want you to change your entire practice by listening to this podcast.

I want you to think about one thing Nancy said or maybe I said to say, well, I'm gonna think about that. I might change that. So that is your challenge. Thank you all for listening. We will see you next time on All Things Marketing and Education. Take care, everyone.

Yay, all done.

Yeah! ⁓