Summary

In this episode of the Raising Expert podcast, host Finlay speaks with Dougal Fleming, an environmental consultant at Middlesex University. Dougal shares his journey from outdoor adventure to environmental consultancy, emphasising the importance of cultural insights gained through travel. The conversation delves into the concept of 'nature positive' businesses, which aim to create more nature than they consume, and discusses examples of innovative companies that embody this philosophy. Dougal highlights the need for businesses to regenerate natural systems and the challenges they face in doing so. In this conversation, Dougal discusses the importance of remanufacturing and the hidden costs of consumer products on nature. He emphasizes the need for businesses to adopt nature-positive practices and the role of investors in supporting these initiatives. The discussion also covers the complexities of biodiversity credits, the significance of carbon accounting, and the necessity of investing in ecosystem services. Dougal highlights the importance of community building through business and the potential for innovation with nature to create sustainable solutions for future generations.

takeaways

• Dougal Fleming is an environmental consultant at Middlesex University.
• His journey includes outdoor adventure and cultural learning.
• Nature positive businesses create more nature than they consume.
• Regeneration is essential for sustainability in business.
• Cultural insights from travel enhance understanding of nature.
• Outdoor instructing can help process complex emotions.
• Mycelium is a key player in waste decomposition and life creation.
• Businesses need to evolve to support ecological systems.
• There are few examples of truly nature positive companies.
• The journey towards nature positive is long but necessary. Remanufacturing can save 85% of embodied carbon.
• The true cost of products includes environmental impact.
• Businesses need to assign a value to nature.
• Investors are increasingly interested in nature-positive companies.
• Biodiversity credits are complex but essential for investment.
• Carbon accounting is a crucial first step for businesses.
• Investing in ecosystem services can yield long-term benefits.
• Community engagement is vital for sustainable business practices.
• Innovative approaches can help integrate nature into business.
• The future requires collaboration and responsibility towards nature.

titles

Hello and welcome to the Raising Expert podcast. I'm joined today by Dougal Fleming. Hey Dougal.

Hello, hi Finlay

How are you doing?

Very well, thank you. Yeah, very well indeed.

Good. Listen, it's lovely to have you on the show. I appreciate you taking the time to talk to us. I'm going to introduce you as a colleague, you know, and that we're working on a project together through Middlesex University. And I know you've just taken on a role there, an environmental consultant, but I'm now going to let you tell us in your own words.

what it is you do and then we'll maybe just have a little chat about your backstory and how did you end up doing what you're doing. So over to you.

Yeah, brilliant. Yeah, very happy to just having, I'm fresh out the packet at Middlesex. Had my first day there this week. Obviously we've been...

collaborating a bit. I've been up there a few times and they're doing amazing work. Well, I say we are doing amazing work at the Centre for Enterprise and Environmental Development Research. I was at University of Brighton's Clean Growth UK as a Green Innovation Advisor for businesses. And during that time, we were on a project called Integrating Finance into Biodiversity. And phase one of that project, we were supporting the University of Portsmouth's

Professor Joe Preston in doing stakeholder engagement for how do investors invest into biodiversity of the marine space? And we identified a few of the key problems as to why there isn't huge amounts of institutional investments going into protecting and regenerating our seascape. And so that was sort of phase one of the project. Phase two then got launched and led by the Center for Ecology

and hydrology. They sort of invited all participants in phase one to apply to be part of phase two. So I got sent to Queen Mary University one fine day and with very little information really as to what to expect. But what I found was a room full of the kind of leading lights around the country in biodiversity and finance.

and I was in there and listened and sort of tried to scope the room a little bit and to be honest I was kind of...

all struck and it was such an exciting space to be in and I really thrive off that energy of of intellect, insight, passion and action. So when that happened I then went away and thought well how can we be involved? I tried to structure a project for academics at Brighton but for one reason or another it didn't happen so I sort of with a colleague wrote myself into the project, dare I be so bold and we got the go ahead so

My contract at Brighton ended, fixed term contract ended, and I was able to then take that funding and offer it out to Middlesex. And Dr. Robyn Owen, who we both work with now quite closely, said, you know, yes, Dougal, we'd love to have you. And we'd love to have your skill set and your energy and your passion.

So yeah, here's a position and that's basically where we are now, which is to deliver a capacity and innovation section for this really exciting NERC funded project.

over the next couple of years. So it'll be a sort of keeping my finger on the pulse and then coming alive in the probably about 14 months when my part of the project starts which is around hosting workshops to help the people, the stakeholders, the academic leads within the project understand how we're going to deliver the report at the end.

I got it. That was brilliant. It is an exciting time for you. And I maybe didn't realize that we were in a transfer window. So there was a transfer happened at that just exactly at the right time and you were available in transfer market. it was brilliant. Right. These things don't happen quickly, do they?

Yes, there was an elongated move, yes.

So maybe it gives me a chance to just let listeners, because you mentioned your work in the investment piece and maybe just to of frame up what we're doing together a little bit more before we move on. So we're talking the end of November 24 and we are prospecting for nature positive businesses to join us in a training program that'll.

and

kickoff in January 25, over a 16 week period, quite a nice pace, not too intensive, and then culminate in a pitching event. So to an audience of investors on the 15th of May. so obviously we're gonna draw on all your experience on what the barriers are and maybe why there isn't so much investment flows into these.

So that's going to be fascinating doing that. You know, we think we've come up with some of the solutions. So that maybe just frames it and makes sense a little bit. And obviously I bring my skills and experience on the kind of coaching side if you like. But thanks for that. I learned a few things there and the terms that you use and so on. Let's go back.

a little bit. I don't want to be unkind when you're not a fresh faced graduate. Tell us little bit more about the journey to get here. Listen, I don't mind if we go back a little bit. I think it's always interesting to hear about people's journey and why they're doing what they're doing.

you

Yeah.

Yes, so well if we're going right back, my mother and father met. They did a course in miracles and back in the day it was a kind of, I don't know if you know the Course in Miracles book, but I was basically a product of that. know, soon after they started studying this course, I came into existence. My father's from Tunbridge Wells, my mother's from Southampton and so they decided to settle squarely in the middle in Lewis, which is one of the best towns in the world. know, I've tried my best to travel around and find

other places, but I do love my hometown of Lewis and East Sussex. It's a truly unique place full of very intelligent people doing a variety of things. Dare I say we lack a bit of real industry, but there's a, it's a kind of rebellious town, know, Tom Payne's from here, Virginia Woolf, Charleston, you know, we have a football club that pays its women the same as the men. We've got a bonfire night where we blow up.

those leaders who have forsaken us each night. So I've kind of had this amazing experience of growing up in this town with incredible parents and incredible family and a good network around me. I mean, you know, never, never ever underestimate how fortunate and grateful I am to have had this sort of base to come from. And so

Yeah, growing up here, it's just been a lot of fun and a big learning curve really. So when I left college and I started at universities, I tried, I did try, but I had too much energy and I would have been diagnosed with ADHD had I been in the US and probably medicated. But actually, I have an auntie out in the west coast of Ireland who rang me up and said, there's an outdoor adventure course, I think it would suit you well, do want to come and do it?

So instead of carrying on with my second year at Kingston University in furniture and product design, having already finished only one year at Southampton University doing business entrepreneurship, I sort of jumped at the chance. And so I spent a year training as a kayak guide, rock climbing instructor, hill walking instructor, amongst other things. And so with those qualifications, I then spent eight years in the West Coast of Ireland.

going throughout South America and Europe, basically trying to integrate into small mountainous communities as a big lanky Englishman with a very Scottish name and learning the language, trying to integrate, understand the cultures, understand the patterns of behaviour within those places, understand the natural cycles as well. So I was in Ecuador, in Chile, in France, Italy, Spain, and...

I think I learned so much in those times, not just about people and culture, which I absolutely adore, but also about nature and about the systems and the cycles that nature goes through. I wasn't expecting to learn those lessons. I really wanted to go for adrenaline sport and, know, throw myself down big rivers and jump off big cliffs on skis on my feet or whatever.

and live quite a hedonistic lifestyle, but at the same time, doing it on a shoestring and proving to myself I didn't need lots of money to enjoy myself, that my wellbeing was actually something that I had control of rather than...

I had to be focused on earning lots of money. So that was kind of my formative 20s and I lived seasonally. And I think that both blessed me and cursed me to some extent trying to blend back into the UK. Because when I came back, I started working for my father doing business development role. He designs, makes and installs bespoke kitchens. And so I really understood the process of both winning work.

Hmm.

and then delivering that work in a very complex process. So we have a warehouse where we factory, where we make all of the furniture. It all comes in. It's all handmade. It's all bespoke. It's very high end. then delivering that, fitting that, was a huge, I mean, I already knew the business fairly well, but then I was in a business development role.

creating new pipelines and so on. And that was all well and good, but I then kind of got the innovation bug and wanted to look at the circular economy and how can we really lace the circular economy into our businesses. And aware of the kind of fact that my father's the founder and there was a culture within the business of let's get better rather than bigger or innovate and evolve in the ways that I was looking to do. A job at the University of Brighton came up and with Zoe Osmond,

Marco Pico and Joe Carpenter and others. I just loved it. I know it was it was literally like oxygen to me.

It was difficult to learn how to do it. It took me a while to start spinning all the plates, getting all the projects going, but I had already started to consult with businesses about the circular economy and about how they could incorporate principles of the circular economy into their business model using the strategizer canvas. And then I just got to do that full time, you know.

integrating into local authorities and building on my role as a non-exec director at the Sussex Chamber of Commerce, I could sort start to work across multiple sectors and start to help business owners to kind of think about where their next steps might be to reduce their carbon emissions and increase their beneficial impact on the environment, but also make money.

So yeah, mean, in a nutshell, that's me.

No, that's brilliant, Dougal. Thanks for sharing that. And I think it is interesting to go back to those formative years. That sounds like a fantastic time over in the West of Ireland. Finding yourself developing those skills and then going on that journey, emotional and physical journey, wasn't it, through your 20s.

We've ended up at this part of the conversation a couple of times and this we can't turn it into a sort of outdoor or ski podcast because we share some of those passions and we've ended up in quite a similar space. Obviously my time in the Alps is not so dissimilar learning by making mistakes, but I really like that almost that.

Coming up.

Yeah.

anthropological element of your learning of going into these vastly different cultures as well as this young Englishman abroad, as you said. So you try and integrate, but you see things obviously from your viewpoint, don't you? then bringing that back, it's not surprising that you've gone into that innovation space because I think people who learn languages and go to different cultures just realize there's a different way of doing stuff.

Yeah, there's a different way of expressing yourself than what you've been taught to. So, you know, I mean, even the notion of, know, I love running in the rain and in English, that's how you say it. And in Welsh, you say, I run through the rain. In Polish, you say, I run on the rain. And in French, you say, I run under the rain. And so just even the concept of moving through a space, moving through rain, rain is a concept, you know, and I actually prefer the Welsh, I run through the rain.

Right, so.

Yeah.

because it's just that way of reframing how you see something. There's cultural touch points that you have when you're abroad. You're just much more open to receiving new information. And I suppose then I became, I crave new information and learning. And whilst I live in Sussex, where I kind of know the culture, I understand it, I understand the people.

I'm always looking to challenge myself and learn new things. having just recently been to China, every single touch point was just a major learning experience. And you can probably overanalyze it, but at the same time, I just love being open to new information. I really do think that academia needs to evolve. It needs a little bit of disruption in terms of how it teaches, how we learn, what we're learning, and why. I think we're taught to think far too much with one side of our brain and demonstrate that that side of

of our brain is evolving and growing rather than it being a much more holistic and physical approach. So the benefit of outdoor instructing is that you're learning whilst exercising. So I still do kayak and cycle tours of the South Downs to try to help people to process some of the stress and strain that they experience in their Monday to Friday. kind of, you know, most times during the tour, we'll kind of get people to stop, still take a breath.

maybe and whilst they've been exercising and maybe invoke a moment of stress, know, frustration, anxiety, whatever it might be, and let the moment that they're in, try to inform and quell those negative emotions that can impede clear and rational thought. you know, at its highest form, that's what I try and do. And I suppose, again, that's from a journey of having led so many outdoor

experiences that actually it can do that if you regularly access that space. It can be a pathway, can be a framework for processing complex emotions or all that sort of stuff. And subsequently I've, you know, I do it quite a lot and I've never really been majorly stressed. So yeah, I'm a lucky boy.

there we go, proofs in the pudding. That's brilliant. And I love that philosophy. And, you know, I dare say that translates over into business and maybe a little bit like academia, as you're saying, you know, listen, it's a little bit prescriptive, isn't it? Rather than stopping and putting the head up a little bit and looking at the view or appreciating, you know, it's almost a mindfulness piece, isn't it? You know, more of the detail and so on. So

and

I'm sure that you bring that sort of ethos into your sort of coaching work and the innovation domain. And I'm looking forward to our session on 16th of Jan, when you're gonna like pick that up with the cohort. And very quickly, before we move on, you would appreciate that. I love that the take on the rain through the different languages.

But you would have realized working on the West Coast of Ireland and your visits to Scotland that we've got not just a different way of talking about rain, but a number of different ways to describe rain and vocabulary a little bit like the Eskimos and the snow, right? So that's entirely different. So listen, that's great. Let's maybe now kind of move more into your domain and the domain that we're going to be working in together. Nature, nature positive.

Yeah.

And listen, there's quite a lot of greenwashing, isn't there? So I would love to hear your take on what is a genuine nature positive business and why we're using that term and what kind of unpack it for us if you like, or if you could.

Yeah, so I think this is basically now become my North Star. And this is what excites me so much. So I have worked quite hard to kind of be in this space with you doing this. And I recognise that from the cohort that you took through initially, it's a really exciting space to be in from the work I'd done initially, that there's lots of companies now who want to be circular, who want to start being a purpose driven company.

And so that is very much the zeitgeist. It's very much the finger on the pulse if you set up a business today You know through through a purpose-led company It's not going to be to use more of the Earth's finite resources and and deplete it quicker You know most people realize that there is a ecological systems emergency occurring. So and Yeah, it's

It is a really exciting space. so just as an explanation, nature positive to me basically means creating more nature through the process of doing business than you use in a nutshell. Now in reality,

our economic system is not set up to facilitate that. So that doesn't really happen, right? Companies don't grow more trees, plants, facilitate more habitats for animals than they consume. Because in the process of doing business, you'll use metal, glass, oil, gas, water, you know, all of the raw materials and resources that

are required even just to run an office with computers and laptops or to produce widgets, you're going to be using the Earth's finite resources and at no stage is it part of a conventional business model to grow plants systematically or enrich soil or clean the air or remineralize water. But every other natural system on Earth does that. And so where I've kind of...

Where my business consultancy is led is like I can help businesses make more money. I can, you know, talk to founders, directors, can talk to managers, could inspire people to continue this evolution. But what I really want to do is to try to help companies realize that we have an impact on the earth and to be part of the natural systems, we do have to try and regenerate. Even the word sustainability is about sustaining our ability to be on earth. Now, my contention is

that we aren't there. We don't run a sustainable model. We haven't, we don't run a model that can sustain. So what we need to do first is to regenerate and being nature positive means creating more nature than we use, as I say. So once we start doing that and once we've entered a space within the world of business that we are generating more nature, then we can sustain. And so there's a sort of step change to get there and

And it is very difficult to use examples of companies who do that because there aren't really many. There are some and certainly some who are trying to do it and we are in this space and supporting that. let's take some examples. A small example locally is the compost club. So they take food waste and they compost it and they then create nutrient rich soil and it can take sort of it can take what?

four months, six months to create nutrient rich soil. The longer you leave it, the more nutrient rich it is. And then sell that nutrient rich soil to farms, allotments, to independent people, wherever it might be. And there is a scale at which that operates. There's a kind of optimal size, I would suggest. And actually one of the companies who went through your IntelliDigest does something similar.

Yeah, I thinking of them. Yeah, yeah, good.

And so that to me, mean, essentially, here we have Amy Burnett sending us email Zoom links, one of our other colleagues and previous guests. So, you know, that's an example of a company, because essentially mycelium is the only real thing that I can see that actually digests waste and creates life. And it's this ancient evolved, it's not a plant, it's not an animal, somewhere in between. It's an intelligent life form that digests waste and creates life.

quite beautiful the way it does that and we we could spend the rest of our lives happily learning and studying what mycelium does but actually we could try and learn to harness it so another great example is a company called biome who I took some shares out in during during lockdown when you know we sat around had a bit more time biome are really interesting and essentially they they're bioarchitects

Yeah.

And they train strains of mycelium to decompose waste and then to create biomaterials and biomatter. mean that's they do a lot more other things and they've got applications like lampshades like instead of plasterboard you can get wall insulation and they also have a methodology for creating modular construction.

But it essentially is centred around how do we harness that relationship that nature has been refining for billions of years. So what does nature positive company look like? To me, that's what it is. However, we're in this world where we are at the foothills of entering this long journey through the mountain range to get to the summit or the promised land on the other side, whatever it might be. So to me, I I also do lot of work with remanufacturing and companies who are

manufacturing and that means taking a product like a laptop or a car part or a solar panel or a wind turbine or in the case that I saw recently a forklift truck. Taking an end-of-life product and a forklift truck, let's take that for example, lasts 15 years before it basically is broken.

So by taking that forklift truck apart, you can then clean it and identify which parts are broken, which parts basically do need to be thrown away and recycled, which parts could be reconditioned, which parts need new, which parts can be reused or cleaned and then reassembled as good as new. And it then gets warrantied and certified as such. Now, by doing that,

you stop finite materials being required to make a new one and you stop it going to landfill or being buried or being burned. So there's a double saving from what the economy requires as a kind of consistent through flow. there's actually 85 % of embodied carbon, you know, as a rule of thumb can be saved through remanufacturing, which to me is nature positive in our current definition. But as we evolve,

you.

through to the next phase, I don't think it will be, you know, because it's not actually contributing to making nature, it's just saving nature's strain put upon it. Another quick example is a tin of beans. So a tin of beans costs 45p in the supermarket, say, maybe a pound now through inflation. But the point is that it costs the earth the tin, it costs the earth the glue, the packaging, the beans, the sauce, and...

that's just at the sale price. Once the beans have been finished, it then costs the earth to try to bring that metal back into circulation through reheating it and melting it and so on, or maybe it just goes into landfill and gets thrown away in that way.

So the point is that the real cost to nature is a lot higher than what we're paying. And so the company who's making the beans isn't paying it. We, the consumer, aren't paying it. The supermarket isn't paying it. It's the earth that's paying it. So we need a value for nature. And I think that's where we're starting to get to with biodiversity credits, which is that we can start to incorporate into decisions we make a value for nature.

That's brilliant Dougal. Just those few minutes that you've answered that question is such a great little seminar for me and hopefully listeners. And obviously what we're trying to do is get this message out that you're evangelizing about. But also hopefully it's helpful for our program. So people that are thinking about applying for the course, I think that's a great little.

piece to go, you do I fit in there? Cause what I've taken from that is right, listen, we have to think about regenerating before becoming sustainable. That's a big piece for me, but there's this spectrum and there's, know, if you get to that place where you like the compost club, fantastic. But there's really entry points, others where you go, well, you know, I'm, I'm doing as much as I can in my piece. So let's, let's open up the dialogue with, those people.

And so thanks for that. There's some real fantastic little sound bites in there that we'll pull out and I'll use again, hopefully in different ways. Let's move to the investor piece. Because I guess the other part of this is a little bit is raising awareness for investors or maybe even educating them. Because you've made this point a couple of times, listen, you want to help.

businesses make money and be profitable, but also be a nature positive business, right? And they're not exclusive. So, you know, I really like about that. Cause I think you could just drift into the purely sustainable piece and forget that to make business people, it has to be attractive to business people and investors, right? Not everyone kind of gets that or agrees with me on that.

Mm.

More and more in my work, I am seeing ethical investors and people that are looking to invest their time and money in projects more like you've just described, which is great. But maybe very quickly, the learnings around those barriers of investment, how would you summarize that?

Yeah, it's a really good point, Finlay, and I think we need to be really clear on advice, both for the investment community in terms of what you should be looking for from these companies, but also to companies and saying, what can you expect from this investment piece? And I think that's basically our role through this Innovation Accelerator, isn't it, really, to get companies and investors ready for that.

So yeah, I mean in my experience, classically what an investor is looking for is 10x within five years. And that's very difficult for a nature positive company to demonstrate. It is possible, it can happen. But 10x of pounds, it is difficult.

10x of pounds plus biodiversity credits, maybe not so much. And so I think that's where, if I have a message for the investment community who are increasingly looking for impact along with their investments. So if we look at sort of environmental and social benefits, if you, so if you want to make the biggest bang for your buck, probably investing a small amount in a community choir.

know, community choirs, people get together, they sing, they unite, they harmonize, they co-spire. Like that is the crux of community. And it would have happened a lot when we all went to church, we would have gone to church and sing.

people don't go to church so much anymore. So where do we get together and sing? Where do we celebrate our existence on earth? Where do we eat and feast and dance together? We don't so much. So if I was an investor and I had all the money in the world, I'd be going to villages and saying, right, let's just invest in your culture. And that's how, that's for me, culture is food and dance and music. And I'm not very good at cooking, dancing or singing, but I do try all of them. So, but let's be realistic. So.

You know, I think what we need to do as business consultants who help companies along the way is we need to develop a value for nature. So we need to say, you know, the value of what Biome are doing, what Compost Club are doing, of what multiple different sustainable companies are doing, like re-manufacturers are doing, is that they're affecting nature in this way. And...

and the benefit of that biodiversity uplift is the most complex thing to measure. It's a fiendishly complex thing to measure and it's very difficult to standardise so that an investor will want to say, I've just bought £500 worth of biodiversity or £5 million worth of biodiversity. But we're getting there. There are methodologies that are being published.

basically as we speak the Krauser methodology for the seed index the Wallacea methodology through replanet that there are some really exciting developments that just been a Published a framework on what do high integrity biodiversity credit markets look like and just quickly on that You know carbon credits have taken a heavy hit and you mentioned earlier greenwashing I Actually as a greenwashing occurs by Coca-Cola Unilever, know the biggest companies in the world who say

the high impact on the environment, same as fossil fuel companies.

The biggest problem we have, think, is actually green hushing. It's companies who are fearful of green washing, so they don't say anything, but they're doing stuff. They might have put solar on their roof, they might have changed their light bulb to LEDs, they might have done the sort of early cost saving bits that really do take significant chunks out of their energy usage. so what carbon accounting is, is it's the simplest way that you can see a business's impact on the environment.

So if a business wants to start understanding how to become nature positive, the first step is carbon accounting, is to calculate all of the different five main hotspots. So your energy and buildings, your transport, your products and services, your waste streams and...

diesel. Now that's more accurate than saying they spent, you know, three million pounds or two million pounds on diesel, you know, because that's then a figure that changes depending on the price you bought for. So so an activity spend is more accurate. And I think that's, you know, it's better to be more accurate. But the point is get started, get calculating, because then you can understand where are your hotspots, and you can take actions to to reduce that. And so

Sure.

Mm-hmm.

Once you've calculated it, once you've reduced it a little bit, you can then aim towards carbon neutral. And the way you achieve carbon neutral is buying carbon offsets. So you go to a mangrove plantation in the tropics, and you spend a little bit of money on helping to plant mangroves. Now mangroves mitigate wave power, sequest carbon, create oxygen, create a habitat, and...

you know for for birds and fish to live around so there's multiple benefits of mangroves. So the term carbon offset has also become like you know you're just greenwashing. Well no that's how you deliver the benefit of projects that are you know taking care of at the moment biodiversity.

through the guise of carbon credits. But as we look at mangroves as an ecosystem service for biodiversity, they're far more complex than just carbon credits. And that's why we need biodiversity, because there are multiple benefits. So the Sussex Bay project is looking to restore 100 miles of coastline between Bogner Regis and Canberra Sands.

And that will involve kelp, seagrass, oyster beds, salt marshes, which are the four key ecosystem services that we can measure along the south coast.

And we need companies to invest in them. We need companies to take responsibility and say, we haven't got all the data on kelp yet, but we're going to start investing in kelp restoration. And we need businesses that use kelp who can be scalable, who can scale 10X in five years because their feedstock is kelp and we're growing kelp now. So there's a whole systems approach to tuning into nature, which is really what I'm so excited and motivated and inspired to try and

engender through our innovation accelerator and others as we go. So for the investment community, like is there anything more exciting? you've, you know, we don't live in a free market economy, let's be honest. Like if you're doing VC investment, there's a bit of risk to it, but essentially you're still making money. Otherwise you wouldn't do it. You know, the real fun is can you rebuild ecosystem services to build climate resilience along floodplains, along rivers, along coastlines, you know, up in the highlands, up in the woodlands?

build epiphyte forests where we've got lichen, we've got mushrooms growing on lichen, growing on trees and and try to give a foothold for bees, birds and butterflies who have taken a huge hit over the last few years. And this is the challenge of our time and we'll either succeed together or fail together.

Wise words, Dougal. It's brilliant listening. You've given us some really good examples and what I'll do is I'll make sure that I've got the links to those from you, the case studies that you've name checked a couple of times and drop them into the show notes and hopefully people that have been listening or as they're listening, they can go and do some further research because there are some great examples out there. But also this is really quite.

dynamic as you're saying, you know, that we're kind of living through the development of this. And I think it's worth pointing out that colleagues on the program that we're working on are developing a toolkit, right, for use to help the businesses sort of quantify what they're doing. So yeah, we talk about the 10X return for investors, but could it be 5X in financial terms?

but if they understand what they're getting in the nature positivity or regeneration element, because you're right, people are excited about those things as individuals, as angel groups, as VCs. Genuinely, I've seen a real shift in the 10 plus years that I've been working in this space because we're all aware as humans, how important this is, but how much fun it can be as well.

All

listen, they get a bit of bad press. I, I took a little bit of a punt, on some BrewDog shares while back and I bought into the brand and the story. you know, they're from the Northeast of Scotland, like I am. And so you kind of felt quite connected to them. I thought there was a great story. and part of their story has become, about rewilding and about nature positivity. So I actually went and helped them.

plant some trees in their lost forest. And by the way, there was quite a big crowd of us out on our mountain bikes that day. And I think that's a good example of us as consumers and shareholders, and that might sound all very capitalist and so on, but there we were, know, cycled. It was community, absolutely, yeah.

I'm

You're building community. mean, that's, yeah, yeah. And I think that's what increasingly businesses are wanting to do because why, what's the point in making money? Well, it gives you choices and what are you going to choose to do? And actually building community is a great one. I Patagonia have done more than anyone, I think, really in terms of that, in terms of making nature, giving nature a place on the board or making nature the only shareholder, isn't it? And,

I think that's so inspiring. I think all companies should, in their customer analysis, have nature as one of their customers. How do we serve nature as a customer? How do you build community as part of your business? And I think you build longer, solid brands.

Andy Bennett actually who works for InnoVet UK, he released a really good graphic recently on I'm not sure whether he did it or whether he found it from elsewhere but I'll give him the credit because he's a good man and I like him a lot. Nature and Biodiversity Investment Trusts who only invest exclusively in this space are the Gaia Fund, the NIA Trust, the First 30 Investing in Nature, Symbiotic Projects

Brain Forest, Sand River, Superorganism and Wedgatle.

So they are the ones who exclusively invest in nature and biodiversity projects. And then there's climate and nature investors. And then there's ones who have a broader interest in at least one nature investment. And then that's a really good graphic that I'll share in the show notes. Because I think it will really help companies who are looking to raise start to approach investors. Because I think that's the other thing as well. There's a big separation between a company who wants to raise and a company who's got a really great idea.

And there's a sort of a fear of approaching a VC. then I've had that experience myself, really, with the company, and saying, well, you're not quite ready to approach them. Well, most VCs I know are looking to invest in companies. And whilst you don't want to show them the back of a fag packet ideas, you want to show them something a little bit more polished. I really do think there's a lot of benefit in just starting the conversation and approaching them.

and just saying what do you think about this idea and what do I need to do to take it to the next level and again we are essentially doing that right we're doing that in a slightly more formulaic, formatic way and you've got that great experience of your network.

But finding the investors that are specific to your area, I think it's really important. And then it's on us as innovation accelerator, kind of coordinators and facilitators to bring high quality prospects to these investors. Because I want these investors who've taken a stance to make money off of the back of our ideas. Because if we can get a couple of proven cases that can do 10X in five years,

great because that speaks the traditional language. What I really want is companies who do

when we have to be basically carbon neutral.

We really need to know what are we going to be growing? How are we going to grow the materials we want? Do we have to use steels or can we use trees? Can trees form the corner posts of our buildings? Why not innovate with nature? Why not use biomimicry as part of the fingerprint for how we're going to do this? I get so excited when I see biomimetic ideas and concepts like Biome's thing. currently working on a project with a guy who is a circular product designer.

Jake Gooderson and we're looking to start to 3D print using an innovative methodology which doesn't involve sort of toothpaste and infrared but it's more dust and low temperature spraying with a binder to create

Yeah, biomimetic shapes out of biomaterials so that they're also designed to die. a chair, how long does a chair last? Well, you know, I've got, I'm actually sitting on one of my grandma's chairs, so it's probably the best part of a hundred years old.

Likewise, actually, as it happens. Yeah.

The link continues. So a good chair is a good chair, but most chairs literally will last five to 10 years now. So why not design a chair to last five to 10 years so that when it's finished, we can inject it with mycelium, submerge it in water for three days, and then put it out on the ground, and it can then rejoin the earth. And it will bring nutrients to the earth. That's the idea.

And just on that, just in case there are any biologists listening, I do think the mycelium we use has to be local to the area which it's being returned to because mycelium is such an incredible and such a kind of unique...

entity on earth, the different locations create their own. And that's why food grown in a certain location will taste different to another food in another location is because the earth has learned how to decompose its own matter in its own locations. So I think there's a really important piece there on knowing and understanding what are geospecific

bio patterns and that includes shapes and forms of trees, of corals, of seabeds, of river beds, of land structures etc. So I don't think it can be underestimated how important it is to be reflective and responsive to the postcode in which something has come from, including businesses.

So yeah, the more biomimetic we can be in business, I think the more in tune we are with our land, with our homeland, and the better we can serve the people of that space.

That's brilliant, thank you. I think I've learned more on this call than on any other. So I think that's a positive reflection on you and your experience and your way of expressing what could be complex. I think you've got a nice way of putting stuff. that's brilliant. Listen, I'm just going to very quickly summarize that last piece because I think you spoke about what we're trying to achieve out of the program.

You

place.

And I was trying to think, what would I see as a success? That list of focused investors that you spoke about, and we'll share that list to try and get as many of them in the room as possible on 15th of May. But also it's a two-sided thing. So as you said, to help prepare the ventures as well as we can, take away some of that fear.

Right, so with the training that we deliver over that 16 week period, so that they feel comfortable in that engagement. And I guess we'll probably need a catch up in about 12 months time to say, right, well, how successful were we in that matchmaking on the two sided thing? So let's put something in the diary for then, Dougal. But thank you very much for your time today. It's been brilliant talking to you.

Yeah, bless you, Finlay. I think it's an important thing we're doing. We are creating the pipeline by which early and young stage companies can really get their ideas fleshed out, understood in a supportive and collaborative environment so that, you know, the investors who are out there who are looking to make a big impact with their money can have investable opportunities in the coming years. So, you know, it may be that out of our cohort of 20

None of them get invested. You know, that's the reality that may happen. Now, obviously we'd like for all of them to get invested or 10 of them to get invested in. But I'm looking at the long term here. And I think, you know, with the programme that we've got, we've put together the sort of learnings that are out there. I think there are long term learnings in there and sort of ideas that people won't forget. You know, they're sort of brain worms that get in there and keep worming. And that's testimony to your network and to the work that you've been doing.

and the sorts of collaborations that we can make through Middlesex and East London and UK Centre for Ecology and Hydrology and Kingston and other places. it's, you know, again, I think it's such a collaborative space. know, there's room for everyone to get involved here. It's the challenge of our time. Are we able to invest in the ecosystem services we need? And there's so many examples around the world at the moment. mean, Valencia most recently and the flooding that they've had, you know, wherever you have a high density

of buildings and strain put upon drainage systems and you haven't put in place proper ecosystem services or properly understood that, then the cost of trying to repair a devastated space can be so, so high. you know, there's amazing stuff. Big picture Scotland, by the way, I want to put a quick shout out to them because they're doing amazing stuff. They are leading the UK in terms of rewilding and the sorts of projects they're involved with.

Yeah, and I guess that, you know, the way that they engage with businesses is a really interesting...

topic as well. Maybe not quite the closing comment, but essentially, yeah, I really feel like we have it in our power to build the world anew, as Tom Paine, a founding father of Lewis, once said. then, and yeah, there's, there's everyone's trying to do it as quick as they can. But essentially within this space, everyone's, as far as I'm concerned, a good person trying their best. And that's all we can do. You know, there's no higher bar than just trying your best to be, to be a good person. And

and to take responsibility. yeah, mean, bless you. It's been a delight to speak to you and I look forward to collaborating further as we go forward.

That's brilliant. Yeah, a bit of pace and a bit of patience as well. That's what we need here. So that's brilliant. Listen, Dougal, thank you very much and we'll talk to you soon.