Designing the perfect outdoor space is like creating your own personal slice of paradise, and let me tell you, that's exactly what Eric G and Joe Raboine, VP of Design at Oldcastle APG, dive into in this chat. We kick things off by exploring the evolution of outdoor living, from basic decks and patios to full-fledged outdoor sanctuaries that blend aesthetics with functionality. Joe shares some killer insights on biophilic design—yeah, that’s just a fancy way of saying we need to reconnect with nature. We also tackle the nitty-gritty of planning these spaces, emphasizing that good design isn’t just about pretty things; it’s about creating environments that foster connection and wellness. So, whether you’re dreaming of a cozy fire pit or a swanky outdoor kitchen, this episode is packed with tips and tricks to help you turn that backyard into the ultimate hangout spot!

Planning the perfect outdoor space isn’t just about aesthetics; it’s about creating a sanctuary that blends seamlessly with nature and enhances our well-being. In this engaging episode, Eric G sits down with Joe Raboine, VP of Design at Oldcastle APG, to explore the exciting world of outdoor living design. They dive deep into the evolution of outdoor spaces, discussing how recent trends reflect a growing recognition of the importance of connecting with nature. Joe shares insights from his extensive experience in the industry, explaining how outdoor spaces have transformed from simple decks and patios into multifunctional areas designed for relaxation, entertainment, and wellness. They emphasize that the right outdoor space can serve as an antidote to the stresses of modern life, offering a much-needed escape from our screen-dominated existence.

One of the standout themes in their conversation is the significance of thoughtful design in outdoor spaces. Joe highlights the importance of planning and working with design professionals to avoid common pitfalls, such as poorly executed projects that lead to costly mistakes. He passionately advocates for biophilic design, explaining how incorporating natural elements can enhance our emotional and psychological well-being. Listeners are encouraged to think critically about their outdoor spaces, considering factors such as functionality, aesthetics, and connection to the surrounding environment. With a wealth of examples and tips, this episode serves as a masterclass in outdoor living design, inspiring homeowners to reimagine their backyards as extensions of their homes and lifestyles.

Takeaways:

• Creating the perfect outdoor space is all about a seamless connection with nature and thoughtful design that elicits emotion.
• Investing in outdoor living spaces offers incredible ROI, making it a cost-effective way to enhance your living experience without major renovations.
• Proper planning and professional design are essential; it's like building a house without a blueprint if you skip this crucial step.
• Lighting can dramatically transform an outdoor area, adding a tenfold improvement in ambiance and usability during evening gatherings.

Links referenced in this episode:

• belgard.com
• moistureshield.com
• oldcastleapg.com

Companies mentioned in this episode:

• Monument Grills
• Old Castle apg
• Belgard
• Moisture Shield

To get your questions answered by Eric G give us a call in the studio at 833-239-4144 24/7 and Eric G will get back to you and answer your question and you might end up in a future episode of Around the House.

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We love comments and we would love reviews on how this information has helped you on your house! Thanks for listening! For more information about the show head to https://aroundthehouseonline.com/

Information given on the Around the House Show should not be considered construction or design advice for your specific project, nor is it intended to replace consulting at your home or jobsite by a building professional. The views and opinions expressed by those interviewed on the podcast are those of the guests and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of the Around the House Show.

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Foreign.

Welcome to around the House with Eric G. Your trusted source for all things home improvement.

Whether you're tackling a DIY project, hiring it out, or just trying to keep your home running smoothly, you're in the right place.

With over 30 years of remodeling experience, certified kitchen designer Eric G. Takes you behind the scenes with expert advice, industry trends, and the latest innovations for your home.

Home it's everything you need to know without the fluff.

Now, here's your host, Eric G. Welcome.

To the around the House show, the next generation of home improvement.

I'm Eric G. Thanks for joining me today.

This hour is brought to you by my friends at Monument Grills.

If you're looking for that new outdoor barbecue that is affordable and it's gonna last more than just a couple years, check them out@montymcrills.com we are going to be talking speaking of barbecues, we're going to be talking outdoor living today, which in the summertime is one of my favorite subjects to talk about.

And I go way back with this company.

I've done a lot of different things with their many brands.

But today we've got Joe Rabone, VP of design at Old Castle apg And you guys have got like one of the widest brands out there.

Joe, welcome to around the House, brother.

Awesome.

Eric, I'm glad to be here and looking forward to the conversation, man.

Thanks.

You guys have got so many brands that so many people probably even know about out there.

You've got a fun job there under a huge umbrella of outdoor living.

Yeah, we're sometimes we say we're the biggest company people may not know of.

We have a whole suite of products across brands to really help bring any outdoor living space to life.

Yeah, it's a lot of fun, fun.

Company to be a part of.

Yeah, you guys have big stuff out there from Belgard.

When it comes to pavers and block and moisture shields and the keeps going on and on.

You get into some of the other stuff like sack crete that you see at your home center.

There's just a lot of different stuff from fencing to pools to everything else.

Yep.

Yeah, it's interesting.

I've been a part of the company for about a dozen years, but prior to that I was a vendor and prior to that I was a contractor.

It's interesting to see the evolution of really going from a masonry hardscape company to a full outdoor living company.

As you said, we've got composite decking, railing, fencing, all the above, all the ingredients, cool finishes to to bring Those spaces to life, which is a lot of fun.

And you get to play with the design of all this, which I think is super cool because that's the fun part in my book.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think you and I share a commonality there, for sure.

I, I could design all day, every day, all night.

I love that.

I love, I love the idea that the products we use fundamentally, they're the building blocks.

Right.

Of these spaces.

And the design is really though, what drives all of it.

And using design to create an illicit emotion and really create a space that is a sanctuary place to entertain, place for health and wellness.

To me, I just, I love that.

I love creating spaces that connect people to each other and to nature and yeah, it's.

It's a dream job for sure.

And I think the industry itself is in a really cool spot.

Tons of excitement.

I feel like even though I've been in this industry over 30 years, I feel like we're just getting started in what's possible with outdoor living.

I think it's only been the last five to 10 years that we've really seen it take off out there.

I still say it's the cheapest investment you can make in your house that gives you a bunch of space to live in and enjoy without the massive project of adding on to your.

To your residence.

Yeah, it's just a great buy.

Yeah.

A lot of people don't think of it that way.

I think if you look at the average cost of an addition or even new construction being 250, 350 a square foot outdoor living space, a full blown, all bells and whistles could be half that or much less.

And granted it doesn't necessarily always have a roof on it, but the same features are there as you'd have on the interior of all the living spaces, the cooking spaces, lighting, sound, all of those things.

And, and it has incredible roi, which people ask me that question all the time.

Like the space itself, you should be buying these spaces for what they can do for you personally.

Clearly ROI is important, but I always feel like that shouldn't be the driver in why you do something or not.

But yeah, it's been, it's been a radical transformation in the past 30 years, that's for sure.

No kidding.

It was that wood deck, it was maybe a patio paver.

And that was where we were stuck for about 40 years, it seemed.

And then all of a sudden it exploded probably 15 or 20 years ago.

Yep.

And then we started to really get into.

You'd see houses with amazing architecture outside and the landscape architecture.

But really calling that an outdoor living space really took off.

And I'm sure you've seen the trends change from where you started back then to man, the world is your oyster right now.

Yeah, it's crazy, I think, and there's been a fundamental shift in how people think about the space.

And I know you probably read some of this as well.

Especially in the last five years since the pandemic, people's mindsets about outdoor living in general change.

But I think just there's a growing awareness of this need for nature and how our brains respond to being in a natural environment and how important that is for us on a day to day basis.

And you can see this information literally everywhere now, where it's becoming, I would say common knowledge that outdoor living spaces and nature in general isn't an.

It's a, it isn't a nice to have, it's a need to have.

And I think we all experienced that over the last five years.

And you look at what implications that has and the science that's coming out to support this, it goes way beyond creating a space for entertainment.

And all those things are clear, clearly part of it.

But I would say there's this worldwide macro trend of biophilic design and this idea that where we live and work and play in the built world, that we need to do a better job of connecting that indoor outdoor space and connecting it also with the local ecosystem.

So the idea of outdoor living, I think, has become much more holistic in its approach.

And that shift, I would say, is a fundamental.

It's a sea change right within our industry and it forces people to look at these spaces in a much different way.

And for me, I love design.

I love, as I said, I love creating these spaces.

Understanding that, and for a company like Oldcast, clearly understanding that is a key part of our business, but also disseminating that information out into the world to our network of designers, dealers, contractors, homeowners, that these spaces can really, truly impact your life in a profound way that goes beyond even some of our conscious understanding.

And this is where the neuroscience part comes in, which I could nerd out on this all day long and go down a long rabbit hole.

But I just think it's fascinating as we learn more about it.

Oh, it's great, man.

I built an outdoor kitchen space in my backyard where I've got a wood fired pizza oven, a big huge domed one that I built.

I've got the barbecue, it's partially covered, partially not.

I can't be sitting out there cooking a pizza.

And this happened this last year.

And I look up and I see a bald eagle sitting in my neighbor's tree.

Sitting there.

Yeah.

And I.

You just don't get that living inside, cooking in the kitchen, in most kitchens at least, and you're just out with nature.

And quite frankly, in the summertime, when I'm out doing it, or in the fall, in the winter, I don't want what I'm cooking outside heating up and smelling up the house.

Anyway, the other night I was barbecuing and I was going to put it on the.

I was going to cook it in the house and I'm like, I'm just going to run out and throw it in the barbecue because that way I don't have the house smelling like salmon all night.

Now, you think about years ago, people, the homesteaders, had outdoor kitchens, right.

They had summer kitchens where they had this separate for that same reason.

It is interesting.

I've had this discussion many times over the years, and people, I'll be talking more about this kind of more emotional side of what's driving people.

Yeah, that's true.

Why?

What about the guy who wants to smoke a cigar and watch the game and hang out with his buddies and builds this outdoor kitchen, puts TV out there?

And I said, all right, I can guarantee that guy has a kitchen, probably has a fireplace, all those same things on the.

Why would he spend 50 or 100,000 to do it outside?

Because it feels better.

Right.

And why does it feel better?

And for us, that.

That's the question.

Why are we so drawn to these outdoor spaces?

And I think this is where the scientific community comes in.

We're actually involved with several organizations that are studying this.

And what's fascinating is it's not made up of just people from the industry.

We're talking about the medical community, psychiatrists, architects, artists, professors who study fractal geometry, neuroscientists who study how our brains react to subconscious stimuli.

And it's absolutely stunning how this data is showing us that, number one, we have an incredible nature deficit in this country.

And really the built world, the average American spends, If we're lucky, 20, 30 minutes a day outside and we're spending six, seven, eight hours on screens.

Right?

And so, yeah, we see this direct correlation between stress, anxiety, depression and screen time.

And the irony of this is I love technology.

I design all day, but it doesn't take long.

Like, we all just know it when you go outside and you go for a walk or you just.

Within minutes, you just Decompress, and you don't even have to do anything.

You're just naturally more relaxed.

And that's really the fundamental driver, we believe, of why people want these space.

But I think it's up to us to draw that out and also educate them on the benefits of it.

It's funny, I put an A TV outside in my area, but what I found is I stream music video channels like it's 80s on MTV.

So when I'm outside, I'm not watching some series television show.

I got music in the background like it's music.

Yeah.

And if I want to look up and see what that band's doing, they're up there.

And then these days, my little hack for that is I don't go out and spend $4,000 on outdoor TV.

Since it's covered.

I just recycle my TV that I took out of the living room two years ago when I upgraded.

I throw it out there, and when I'm done, I go recycle it.

It's like the last of life for it.

It's been outside for four years and it's done great.

Yeah, it's durable enough.

Yeah.

No, it's true.

And they're inexpensive enough to today too, that a lot of people are doing that.

You don't need the big weatherproof tv.

You need to keep it weather covered from the weather.

But they'll last a long time if you take care of them, that's for sure.

Sure.

If I get blowing snow or something weird that could get in there, I just go out and throw some garbage bags and some gaff tape around it.

It's good to go.

And then I take it down again.

It'll be fine.

Yeah.

If for $4,000 difference, I can sure do that.

But there's so many great values when you get outside and start designing from the technology that goes into products.

We had our redwood and cedar and southern yellow pine decks going across the country into what was the first generations of composites.

And then heck, I've got moisture shield decking on my deck, which is an old castle brand.

And when I go walking across with bare feet, my wood deck is.

That's on the side is actually hotter than the composite deck, which is exactly the opposite if it was another decking product.

So it's amazing how technology is starting to really step in.

And moisture shield's nothing new with that reflective heat technology.

Yeah.

It's interesting.

You're right.

That all of this continues to evolve.

And when you talk to people like you're in the landscape you're out there living.

Oh, you guys are the brick guys.

The foundational products haven't necessarily changed from the ingredient level, but the technology certainly has.

With different finishes and esthetics, with textures, color, heat reflecting technology, recycled content.

We are right in the in line, I would say, with what's going on in the digital age, especially when it comes to design and all the other things that bring those spaces to life, that to me is what's exciting.

I mean, it is absolutely exponentially growing and is outdoor living right now is right on par with.

It's either number one, two, maybe three, depending on who's doing the research of spaces people want.

Which I think speaks volumes where forever it was kitchens and used to be rec rooms.

And it's always shifting, but you can see how people are prioritizing it, which I think is fascinating.

It is.

And I think people get out there and they go, wow, I've got this blank slate of a house.

Maybe they've got a builder special where they've got that little concrete pad out back off the patio slider coming off the dining room kitchen or whatever, and they've got this massive dream.

And my first thing I tell people when they're looking at this is I think the biggest mistake that I see people make is not the proper planning or bringing in the design professionals to actually get you the game plan before you get started.

It's like building a house without a blueprint.

If you don't have it, you're going to be in trouble.

Yeah, I use the same analogy.

I also use the car analogy.

I said, can you imagine if you, you wanted to go buy a car but you had to just, you show up and ask a mechanic to put a bunch of pieces together and make something.

I said, that's basically what happens a lot.

And people were like, yeah, it's expensive.

You're going to recoup that 10 times over.

If you're doing a larger project to get a quality design, make sure you plan all those things.

And there, there's a lot of insights that the designers have, right, that they're seeing more projects, they're pulling data from wherever that you don't always get.

I absolutely always say you should invest on that front end.

And even if I tell contractors, you might be the best installer in the world, but a poorly designed project will still be a poorly designed project.

And no matter how good you install, it just is.

Oh yeah.

And there's nothing more frustrating for the end user, homeowner or whoever else that now has to tear up part of their paver patio, take apart part of their deck, and bring heavy equipment into the finished backyard because they want to put gas for the fire pit.

I actually just ran into this problem today.

I still.

I get pulled into lots of projects, as you'd imagine with my background, but same thing, right?

It's just a lot of times too, people don't have the budget, so they don't.

They like, I'm just going to do this.

I'm just going to do the pool for now and do this later.

If you don't plan for it all at the beginning, it just.

It's going to cost you way more over the long term because you did for that exact reason.

Right.

Where you're not thinking about utilities or foundations or access or all the above, and you just made everything way more complicated for the next guy that's showing up.

Think about all the electrical you have to put in back there with dedicated circuits.

And if you're putting a pool, that's one thing.

If you got a hot tub, another.

But you could have three or four circuits in an outdoor living space out there.

If you're not careful, by the time you put appliances and everything else in.

Oh, yeah, you need to.

That should be your first step, is planning where that stuff goes.

That way you've got it torn apart once and you can build from there.

And you can do things like you said, where you maybe stub a gas line in or maybe you put in a foundation for a kitchen, but you're going to cover it with a planter until you're ready to build it or a lot of ways to create efficiency.

If you think through it on the front end, and we talk to homeowners about that all the time, that's actually one of the.

One of the driving forces behind us acquiring the yards and design company is trying to get in on the front end of it just to alleviate some of that.

Because if you look at the interest in out there living for us, our thought is how do we deliver the product, which is really the space to the consumer in a more streamlined way.

And it really starts with design and obviously education and product, all those things come together, but the design really drives all and people are more design savvy than they've ever been.

So got to make sure you have the right colors and textures and patterns and all those things as well.

But pulling it all together is a work of art.

It's like the difference between a chef and buying the ingredients.

Right?

Yeah.

You got to have A great recipe, otherwise the meal stinks.

Right.

That's the thing.

And yes, they're more design savvy.

However, they can be so much more dangerous if it's a DIY project.

Because just because you've got 12 things that look good in your Pinterest folder doesn't mean this is all going to work together.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yep.

It's tough.

It's tough.

And then what happens is the project gets going, they get halfway done, they realize they're in over their head, and maybe they even hired the wrong landscape contractor to come work on it.

And then somebody has to come in, design it, fix it, put it back together.

Yeah.

And it's never less money.

Yeah.

And it's tough, too, because unlike I would say, building a home where people are used to that and there's a pretty.

Pretty consistent process out there, living in many markets is still, I would say, somewhat unregulated.

And there are very few what I would call outdoor living, general contractors.

So.

So even though you might have designers, a big challenge for us is also finding ways to streamline it where, you know, as you might have 10 GCs on a.

Or 10 subcontractors on a project.

Plumber, electrician, mason, pool guy, all those different facets of the trades, and they all have to be coordinated.

You got to make sure it all works together.

So that.

That part's a little bit of a challenge.

And again, we've got tools we're trying to help with on that.

Design's a big piece of that.

But for sure, I mean, they.

So I would say you see this big gap where people.

There's a.

An expectation where they want these spaces, but they aren't easy to get.

They're complex.

There's a lot of choices that need to be made with materials and all the above.

And so I can't stress enough.

As you said, planning and design is absolutely critical to getting that put together in an efficient way.

No question.

And I think one of the biggest things that people miss as well out there when the project's all said and done is don't forget the lighting.

The lighting can take that project and put a 10x on the end of it.

As far as how it looks in the evening and how you use it as well.

Yeah, no, for sure.

And we.

I hear this often, right.

We don't do lighting.

It's.

Oh, man, it.

The homeowner may not even think about it because they're like, oh, I have a porch light.

And then they realize it's like a spotlight when they're sitting out there.

And to retrofit any those spaces, that's an absolute nightmare.

If you're not offering lighting as part of this, man, you're doing your customer a disservice for sure.

I'm saying I have an outlet on the back of the house by the faucet, so I'm good on the power.

Yeah, exactly.

No one's putting.

No one's putting power strips outside to run their outdoor living.

You have to deal with it all at once.

And again, it's so easy to run cable when the landscapers are out there working on stuff before they have all the stuff in.

So you're not digging stuff up, tunneling under, edging, whatever you're doing.

Yeah.

Just do it on the front end as part of the plan.

And it's so much easier than to make it a weekend project or having a professional out for a week doing it when you're trying to get it done correctly.

Yeah.

And I think the other thing I like to talk to designers about, or contractors as well, is like, you really, you need to do a lot more on the front end with.

With asking questions.

Right.

Things like what how many people will use in this space, how often we use it, what are you going to use?

What are you trying to accomplish with the space?

And then even dig into what type of furniture are you envisioning?

Like, people might be thinking, I want a big, deep seating sectional and I want a farm table that seats 12.

And yeah, you go through the whole thing and then you design.

Someone designs, and they can only put a bistro table there.

I've seen this happen so many times.

So you have to understand what they're thinking or at least ask the question.

And they.

If they don't know, dig into it a little bit because it'll ultimately drive what that project will look like and how it'll be sized and shaped and all that.

But you're so right because foundationally, there's a post coming off that cover, Right?

That's right.

Where somebody wants to put that L shape exterior, sectional, couch, because they didn't think about which way that was going to face.

And now they're in trouble because it's broken up and they got to come up with a different furniture choice.

Yeah, no, absolutely.

Yeah.

That is cool.

Lots to consider.

There is.

And what are you seeing in trends right now, Joe?

There's so many things that are happening and so many things firing off.

If you were going to say, for 20, 25, what are you seeing out there?

As far as the expansion of this and all the beauty that's happening in the backyard or even front yard space.

Yeah, that's a great question.

I something that we study a lot and I try to connect with.

And I think I'll go back to the beginning with the wellness trend.

I think I would say this is a long term macro trend where again, people are realizing that these are important spaces and they're thinking about them differently.

And really what that leads to is if I think about this space as something that I use on a daily basis and I'm hoping to achieve a better quality of life and overall health, and better health and well being and also function, it's radically different than thinking about, I need a place that I can party and entertain six times in the summer.

Totally different value proposition.

So some of the things, the trends that come off of that, I would say all these are interconnected to some degree is when you think about some of the fundamental principles of biophilic design.

Well, number one would probably be really that connection physically and visually to the exterior.

You mentioned before where someone had a patio door or a window.

Right.

And so thinking about, like, how do we create a space that helps draw people out visually?

So it might be where you position a fireplace or a water feature or a pool and how it's viewed from the inside, but then how do I access that space more seamlessly?

And you think about zero edge transitions, even nanowalls, large French doors, retractable screens, or even pass throughs where you have an indoor kitchen that opens up a window and all of a sudden there's someone on the outside and there's a bar there.

Right.

So you have this seamless, flowing transition between.

I think yes, some of those things can be expensive, but a lot of that also is just a design choice.

And I think it's interesting to talk to other designers on the inside.

Oftentimes those choices, again, they don't necessarily cost any more money.

It's just thinking of, hey, I'm going to build an indoor kitchen.

Where should I put the outdoor kitchen?

And by the way, this homeowner is very interested in growing an herb garden.

Or maybe they have a brick oven like you said, and, or like to grill.

And maybe I would put a salsa garden here in a raised bed or a vertical garden.

And just thinking about it in a much more holistic view from a holistic viewpoint.

And the other part of that I would say is thinking through how can I connect this space to.

Because this is something I would say the majority is leaning toward, and certainly millennials and Gen Z's are, is how do I make a bigger impact or less of an impact to the natural environment?

And so that may be sustainable product, recycled content, but it also a big shift is thinking of where can I add a pollinator garden?

How can I do some stormwater capture?

How can I improve biodiversity in this area?

Or how can I draw butterflies into my backyard where you start to immerse all the senses and they're thinking about all of it connected instead of again going back to what it used to be, where I just want a place to have a killer barbecue this weekend.

That's a big part of it too.

But the value proposition is way different.

And people, if you're going to use a space every day, especially if you're in a pretty a nice climate that's fairly year round, you're going to, you're willing to invest more in thinking about, I'm going to be out here every day.

I might put an outdoor shower in.

I'm going to do yoga out here, I'm going to work from home, so I need a wi fi booster, I need some shade because it's hot right here and I'm going to be out here during the day.

All those things start to change.

And again, if you're not thinking about this, as a designer, I always thought this isn't about manipulation.

This is about understanding your client and giving them the best possible environment for their life.

Right.

And how they could you can help them prove their life.

And if you come in with that attitude and you're sincere about it, that's something you can't fake, man.

The contractors who are embracing this, designers who are have so much work that you start talking about, hey, I understand you asked for a patio.

I want to talk about health and wellness and what you hope to achieve with this space.

Totally different conversation.

The homeowner's.

What are you talking about?

I asked you to put pavers in.

I understand that you asked me that, but I want to tell you a little bit about what we know about the importance of being outside and how this space can impact you, your children, your neighbor, your family.

And man, I've had this conversation many times over the last few years and people get emotional about it because most people, I don't think, understand why they want this space.

But it's absolutely intrinsic.

It's fundamental in our DNA that we are drawn out to these outdoor spaces.

And I think when you start to connect the dots, it seems so obvious, right?

Like you said, yeah.

I'm outside, I see this bird, and I feel the wind.

I feel the sun on my face.

Like the muse.

Everything just.

Everything feels better.

And.

Yeah.

So I think when you dig into that, the conversation then becomes so different.

Like, we.

We can talk about product later.

And I realize I work for a manufacturer and that's important to us, but product should be way down on the discussion list.

You need to solve these first, and that'll help solve that later on.

Yeah.

One of my favorite tricks as a kitchen and bath designer is we were doing that kitchen, dining room or whatever, and the door went out to the patio from there.

And we were doing an outdoor space as well, or they were even planning an outdoor space and maybe they had a covered area, was to bring the tile that was in the kitchen, if it would work outside, to bring that through the nanowall or door system.

Yep.

And take it out into that entry out there to make it inviting so it seems like it's seamless, that outside is still on the inside.

And then as it went out into the elements, you could transition over into a complimentary or color matching decking product.

And it just looks absolutely stunning.

And technology these days and the selection of materials has made that so much easier to do.

And it's just so darn inviting when it all makes sense.

Yeah.

And it's interesting.

I've.

As you said, when you get those space, the ones that are done really well, you'll be in those spaces.

I've been to events and I've been to people's homes that have them.

And as you have, and you think all of a sudden you realize you're like, wait a minute, I'm not actually in the house anymore.

I'm actually out on a porch.

But I feel like I'm in the kitchen.

And those insane.

That blurring of the lines is really think about how engaging that is.

Right.

Where.

Or if you're in the house, you're like, what is going on out there?

And it pulls people out of there, gets us off our screens, off our devices, and we're out engaging with the natural world, having conversations, food, and all of the above.

It's what.

It's really what life is about at the end of the day, is trying to create a space that fosters those types of interactions, which I think is what really is what's driving people to want these types of spaces.

It's funny, I'm in the Pacific Northwest, so we.

We have some winners that are less than desirable at times to be hanging out outside.

But it could be 50 degrees outside.

And if I've got a dinner party at my house and I'm outside cooking pizzas, for instance, all of a sudden 3/4 of the people at 10 o' clock at night are standing outside with their jackets on in front of the heaters, hanging out.

And they could be inside where everything else is going on.

But everybody just tends to gather outside.

Almost like you see when you have a dinner party and people are in the kitchen, they tend to go around that as well.

And so people really like to be where the action is.

And if you're using that outdoor space correctly, you've just now doubled or tripled the size of the people you can have over because you've got the space to do it.

Yeah, we are absolutely drawn to the elements.

Fire, water, the music, all those things.

And again, you look, you start to pull up some of the science behind this and it's just, it's fascinating.

It.

I was reading something the other day and was talking about how when we stare into a fire, it triggers the production of stem cells in our body.

And it's just, it's instantaneous.

And so it literally is like a magnet for it, for humans.

And you're right, if you're, if you have a wood fired brick oven or you've got a fire pit, I don't care what's going on nearby.

It's like, boom, people are there.

And it's just those are some of the coolest, most memorable experiences that we have.

I feel is having these visceral, ancient experiences, which I, that, that's the type of thing that drives me.

I love making things, I love designing, but helping to create those is just, I think is super cool.

I can't imagine a better place to be in, in terms of an industry or profession.

Yeah, no question.

And we're seeing some interesting trends.

I live outside of Portland, Oregon here, and I just saw something come across last week or in the last couple of weeks on my desk that popped across that the whole city had done a burn ban for fire pits and everything else from July 1st all the way through the end of the year.

Yeah.

And my head wasn't like, oh my gosh, we're doing that.

I'm like, how many people now are out getting ready to plan for their gas outdoor fire pit because they're not going to spend the summer without their fire pit.

Yeah.

So I was just kind of laughing going, there's going to be another way of people doing it.

There goes the firewood.

But here comes the Backyard renovation.

It is interesting.

There has been a shift in the last 10 years and a lot of large municipalities like metro areas have banned wood burning and gas.

Gas has come a long way.

It's easy.

It's not.

No, not messy.

Looks great.

So I think if you look across the board, probably 65, 70% of all fire features now are gas in the outdoor space.

A lot of it, I think is driven by convenience.

I'm a purist, I love a wood fire.

There's nothing better, but same it.

Gas is convenient too.

I get it.

And done in the right way, it can still be very effective.

Yeah, it works really well.

And I think if anything, if you're a wood person and you're planning your space, bring the gas out close to it so you got it as an option.

So that way if they do ban it down the road or you get into a fire situation where they're like, yeah, hey, it's dry.

It's not going to be for another year.

You got some options.

So you.

The pipe doesn't cost you that much getting that out there.

Yeah.

Just have the plan for it.

Yeah, absolutely.

And even the electric ones now are even not bad looking.

It's just.

It wouldn't be my cup of tea, but it's another easy, convenient option and it still gives you the feeling of having that space.

Yeah, it's.

It'll continue to evolve and we'll look for ways to streamline it, but I think gas is here to stay and it's just going to continue to proliferate.

No question.

Joe, we can't not talk products here because there are so many things out there that.

And here's the thing, when you're planning an outdoor space, you only know what you know.

Yeah.

And your designer only knows what they know.

Yep.

So there's so many great products out there that maybe aren't front of mind for people that they should be thinking about when they're doing that space.

Yeah, no, I.

It's funny, I get prodded often at work, like, hey, man, I get your passion about this other stuff, but we have to still sell some things.

They're all related.

Right.

So I'll take Belgard for instance, and what we've done and what we're doing with.

With the hardscapes.

Right.

You look at, obviously there's a whole price continuum and we do projects all the way from bags of aggregate.

Right.

That someone may drop down and build a fire on, all the way up to million dollar projects that are outdoor spaces.

But I would say the hardscape is typically the foundational product l the pavers, the retaining walls, all the above.

And what we've done over the last few years to make things easier is we've transitioned.

We've actually re platformed our pavers to be all modular so they all work together.

They're all based on a 3 by 3 inch increments.

They're 60 millimeters thick, and you can mix and match and create patterns, and you have these consistent patterns.

So what that does is just streamlines things instantly where you don't have to relearn patterns and whatnot, but from a designer's perspective, like, we can create literally any type of pattern that you want, even some of the geometric patterns that have been around for millennia.

So it's also helped us introduce new textures.

So a lot of the organic kind of natural textures that are fundamental for biophilic design.

Things like tooled, almost artisan style, things like textiles, really inspiration drawn from nature.

We're doing more of that.

We're doing more with color, and we're really giving the designer this kind of.

This kind of palette that they can work from in a way that they've never been able to before.

And beyond that, with the acquisition of, somewhat recently of companies like Moisture Shield, rdi, Catalyst for Railing, we're starting to look at all these products as one so much.

If you're designing a kitchen, you're not just looking at the cabinet face or the finish.

You're looking at the knobs, all the hardware, everything countertop.

We're looking at outdoor space that way, where it's actually forcing the way that we design product to radically change.

So it's pretty cool because, again, people.

That's how people buy things, right?

If you go buy furniture, you want to see it accessorized, put in a room, what's the wall color?

What's the rug look like?

This is the same idea, but with outdoor products.

So it's super exciting to be on the, I would say, forefront of that, of just how do we take what we have as a manufacturer and all this information we have and boil it down and.

And package it up in a way that the design community and the homeowners can look at and go, oh, that.

That makes a lot of sense.

It's like buying a car.

Like, I'll buy that.

I Love that.

Ford F150 looks great.

I'll take all of it.

I don't need to design it all from scratch.

I already see what I like, so it's the same idea.

I Would say there's.

When it comes to Belgard, some of the stuff that, that you guys been doing, from that papyrus to even that empire kind of herringbone style that you have, it's just transformational how a paver can look that's different than anybody else.

Yeah, Yeah.

I always say it's funny.

Thank you.

By the way, a paver is like a paver machine, is like a big play doh machine.

You can literally make anything.

It's just a media, right.

Where the nuances come in terms of it's the color.

We do things with face mix or durafusion as we call it, different cleaning and sealing techniques post process.

So it's really taking that raw product and creating something that's unique and cool and is flexible.

And so some of the things, like papyrus is a good example where again, we're playing around with textures that historically you never would have seen in a concrete paver and quite frankly see them in natural stone either.

It's a completely new approach.

And so things like textiles, there's.

It literally is endless.

There are textures everywhere.

And so we're trying to draw inspiration from the natural world and try to implement some of those textures as well.

It's funny when the first time I saw a picture of papyrus, I went spelgard getting into tile.

What's going on there?

Yeah, that's a compliment.

But I was like, wow, that's a whole different look.

And it's so amazing to think of what you can do when you jump down that rabbit hole of, okay, let's throw away what many people think of a traditional paver and go a different direction.

Yeah.

And I think it's interesting.

So I think there's two kind of dichotomies happening with design and one on one hand for outdoor design.

And really I think everything right is people are leaning much more modern and modular and more transitional.

Right.

Most people aren't still willing to make the full jump to full modern minimalist, but somewhere in between.

But you're seeing this big resurgence.

I would say also that obviously kitchens and baths is where you're seeing it first, is people are playing with color and pattern and texture in rich hues and greens and warm tones and really getting really creative.

And I think that's cool because I think that is going to translate to the outside as well, where people will feel more adventurous to do things maybe were in the past.

They're like, you know what, just give me a three piece Ashler slate texture and I'm good.

I think you'll Start playing around with pattern much more, which.

And you start thinking of a color pattern, texture, man, you can do some really cool stuff if you're, if you're open to it.

So I hope that's where we're going because it feels like that's where we're at.

I guarantee, I think we are right there.

If you think about where we were at here recently, the last probably started here four or five years ago, design wise.

And we're seeing the mainstream now, but we were in the.

How many different versions of gray and white and black can we put together with some textures and thanks, Chip and Joanna, but we did that to death.

And now color, yeah, color and texture has really come in now and you're seeing bold colors and you're right, and I hadn't thought about it until you just brought it up, but if people are comfortable with color and texture inside, naturally that's going to work its way outside as well.

Yeah.

And I think it's funny when you talk about pattern and even geometrics and things like that, I think a lot of people like, ah, that's too modern.

But man, you go back throughout history, go look at old cathedrals, old homes, and look at very, what you would say are traditional or even old fashioned things were full of geometric patterns.

So when you start to play with color and texture and pattern, I think we're just getting started for the.

I love this stuff.

And I, yeah, I hope, look, I'm a fan of large format, clean lines, minimalism too.

There's a place for that.

But I think again, it's.

And this is what's interesting about this science behind it, our brains are actually hardwired for geometry and beauty and that comes from the building blocks of fractal patterns in nature.

And so there are things that we can do with pattern that elicit the similar feelings that we would get when we're in a natural space.

And so I think the design community is just starting to understand that and it'll have implications that go beyond what we're talking about today.

But as we move into the future, I just think it's cool and I'm really happy to see that people are much more adventurous, it seems, than they have been in the past to experiment with that stuff.

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

I had a question on product for you.

Is Catalyst something that's new for you guys with your fencing or is that something that I just missed?

No.

So this past, this past year at the builder show, we unveiled Catalyst.

And Catalyst is a new brand.

Prior to that we had, I don't even know how many, a lot of different brands.

They were all over the place with our metal fencing and composites and vinyl and all those things.

And it was very confusing.

It was even confusing for me.

And I work here.

And so the thought was, what?

How can we simplify this?

Cause again, in the minds of the consumer, it's a fence.

Right.

Just show me what you have for fences.

I don't want to navigate the all, all this other stuff.

And so that was really, no pun intended.

The catalyst behind Catalyst is to, let's just make this easy and easy to understand.

And man, it's been, I know from, for me, it's been a lifesaver to just navigate what we have from a design perspective.

But for the consumer, it's made their lives easier as well.

And again, you can see this kind of connection starting to happen between our other brands.

And looking at Catalyst, for instance, there's a, like a rotomolded wood grain product called Breckenridge that has this kind of wood, almost like a vertical wood grain.

Right.

How do those colors impact what we're doing with walls and pavers?

And we got to make sure that they make sense together.

Otherwise people are like, I don't know, I need to see a sample.

Yeah.

And so it's just prior to us coming together and acquiring these companies, we wouldn't have asked that.

Probably we would have just felt, I don't care.

Figure it out yourself.

But, but so those kind of things again, I think are leading to this streamlined design, design driven approach.

Yeah.

I have to admit, and this is going to sound like some self help group here, but I was an early adopter of another brand's composite slash decking, fencing, tracks and say it.

Oh, you did say it.

That's good.

I did say it.

Holy smokes.

And my parents live in eastern Washington.

My mom's there now.

And that aged like milk.

Yeah.

Didn't work well.

Yeah.

And I'm gonna have to go over there and redo their fence one of these days because it in that they got, they get a lot of heat, they're in desert.

So it's almost like desert southwest as far as climate in the summertime.

And it has drooped and dragged just like any other.

I mean, that was so original.

That was the original kind of wood fiber plastic composite, which no one is making products like that anymore anymore because for that very reason again, that was an early attempt and wow.

There's a reason why they didn't make that anymore.

Yeah, it's interesting.

You look back, it's just like anything 30 years ago or so when it was launched.

And I think we were no different with moisture shield.

It's just you have this new.

It's like discovering fire.

What can we do with it?

And you do all these different things, you realize some of them don't work the greatest.

And then over time, you add technology and change all that and all and whatnot.

But yeah, it's no different with other products.

And I think the benefit the consumer has that's buying today across pavers walls, all that is, hey, we've done all the testing, whether we liked it or not, over the last 30 years.

And the products we make today are absolutely incredible and are on par with the latest in technology across the board.

Yeah, it's so different when you're a new adopter on a brand new product.

But, you know, these days, when it comes into the composites, that technology has been around and it has been improved and improved.

And of course, with the testing out there, that's done, everybody in your business, I'm sure, knows exactly what its limitations are.

And of course, there's that safety thing where you're like, even though I'm sure on the design side, you want to do something, you've got somebody, you're going, it's not the best idea, even though it sounds cool.

Yeah.

Now, there's always that balance between the production team, sales, marketing, product development, you want to push the boundaries, but you also, and you want to be first, but you got to make sure it's going to last and work well.

And we're no different than anybody else in that regard.

And we do our best to try and launch products that we know are going to last and will be low maintenance.

And I would say the good thing, and this is something when you're working with a company like us that's so big and has such a footprint, like we're not going anywhere and if there's a problem, I guarantee we will take care of it no matter what.

And that's something that we really, truly hang our hats on and are proud of.

Yeah.

And I tell you what, I mean, I've got that.

I've had probably, what, four years or so, five years on my moisture shield decking.

And that stuff looks as good as it did the day I put it down.

And the cool thing with it is I have weather.

I could have an inch and a half of freezing rain on it.

I've had tree branches come out from trees that are 100ft up.

Yeah.

And 117 degree days when we had that thing about three years ago on it and two big dogs and it still looks good.

So it's amazing how well stuff these days when it comes into composites and things like that, how it holds up and how it delivers and.

Very impressive.

Yeah, we've had some new.

We have a new product called Stratos, which is actually capable.

It's 40% lighter and you can span on two foot center.

Whoa.

And it's a cap product.

And you look at the technology, our we.

Our product, we're so confident in the water repellency of our product.

You can actually submerge it in water and it won't void our warranty, which I think is fascinating.

So if you're building docks or if you live in Seattle or Portland, water, where water is a big problem.

In fact, where I live, we get 70 inches a year up in North Georgia.

So.

Yeah, so it's gotta.

If it doesn't withstand water, man, you got some problems.

But then heat's the other big part.

Right.

With temperatures in certain states going up, man, you got to think about that.

If you get.

If you get the wrong color, it doesn't have heat repellency.

You literally can scorch your feet, which is.

Or your pet's feet, which is not good.

Even worse.

Yeah, it's worse.

So lots to consider.

But it's good to see technology's kept up and we're solving those problems.

And yeah, like I said, there.

There are more options than ever to create a low maintenance, beautiful space than ever before in the colors and palettes that you want, which is pretty cool.

Yeah, that is cool.

Before we run out of time, what other brands of stuff are hot right now that you guys.

We could sit here for another two hours, do a Joe Rogan style thing and talk about product, but just because it's a mile deep, I'd have.

I'd be on page two of the list of things that we could be talking about.

But you guys have the whole outdoor space covered, which is cool.

But what are some of the leading stuff that you guys are doing?

Just to touch on a few cool top points there.

Yeah.

When we look at what's interesting, again, if you go back to our history was primarily hardscape masonry.

And now that we're in all the other pieces, the reality is, and this is what led to a lot of this is most projects have.

They may have a deck on part of it.

They may have a stone wall, natural stone steps, all of the above.

And.

But a lot of these projects, people, from a design perspective, they also really prefer, I would say, mixed materials.

And number one, we're making sure, as I mentioned, that all these products kind of work together and that we're thinking about color palettes and design and shape and all that texture, all that kind of holistically.

We're also looking at solutions that.

For instance, there's a product called Instadeck which is a revolutionary product.

It's actually designed.

It's the same thickness as a paver and it's designed to be laid on the same substrate, same base prep as a paver would be.

The cool part about that is you can now get a grade flush level deck, look right at grade level and you can even use it around a pool where it's technically permeable because the water would flow through the joints, the spacers.

But you can mix and match pavers as well.

So you can bring that look of that deck right down into the landscape.

And if you want to, you could blend it with pavers and create patterns and whatnot.

But it.

So that's one example of we're just looking at our materials differently.

And a solution like that.

You've been in construction like to do something like that without that system, man, you're just.

You're talking about a little bit of engineering and probably had a.

Going to have some issues with it down the road at some point with building a structure underneath, trying to anchor it all the above.

And not creating my own second swimming pool under my deck that my winter rains have a place to go.

It's like.

Exactly.

Oh yeah, it would be like just another swamp pool underneath there.

So that would be horrible.

But that changes everything.

To give you that seamless transition where you could come down those stairs and transition into that and really make some really cool design features with that.

Yeah, absolutely.

So then also thinking through, as you mentioned, lighting and making sure we have the different lighting components to support that entire space from the deck all the way down the fencing and rail piece.

That's huge.

Different railing styles.

We have a new cable rail, elevation cable rail, which is a pre strung cable rail which you basically just open it up and you tighten it down and it's got like this pulley system so you don't have to go and tighten every individual cable up.

These are examples of.

We're trying to make sure what we're doing is also easier to install.

Not just beautiful, not on point with design, which those things are key.

But we also know that that labor is a challenge.

Right.

And so our pool of labor is probably not going to get any larger.

This may in fact may shrink.

So we got to figure out solutions to improve the speed of it.

And that's an example of that.

Insta deck, again, is I would say, another example of that.

So we're looking through that lens.

So we see design, installation, color, texture, all those things working and in unison to make sure we're reinventing the way we approach it.

Yeah, I love railing options because so many people get done with planning the deck and they go, now I got to do the railing.

And then they cringe because they know what they got to spend on railing to get something cool.

And if you can do something that saves on the labor that really helps that project get off the ground.

Yeah, for sure.

The other thing I would say is also a macro trend is that the yards, American yards are shrinking like radically as and sheesh, no kidding.

Anybody who's been around a big city can see that.

Right.

They're jamming as many houses they can in a small lot.

And so it's making us rethink product design and even how this, what an outdoor living space means.

We're looking at it through the lens of an outdoor living space might be someone's balcony living in an apartment building all the way down to 10, 10 by 20 foot area that's off the side of an alley or on the side yard or the front yard.

And so we also then are thinking if you have a very narrow space, for instance a 12 inch deep block doesn't work, you need something narrower.

And so what does that look like?

And so our products, like our Art Forms modular panel system were born out of that idea is is taking a relatively thin product and basically bolting it together with stainless hardware to alleviate the need to build a really heavy gravity based planter seat, wall, bench, kitchen, that type of thing.

So all these things cross over.

But yeah, I mean looking, stepping back, going, what is an outdoor living space consist of?

Where are they at?

We also see a big shift towards multifamily.

People live in multifamily, whether condos or apartment complexes still want an outdoor living space.

Right.

So those are more community oriented, but really does affect product design and overall design.

And we're looking through consistently through that lens as well as the commercial piece.

Yeah, it's interesting and to jump on that.

My girlfriend's got a beautiful townhouse and it's 72 inches of depth off the back wall back there of space.

It's nice and wide There's a lot of space there, but there's a six foot fence that you're in a box.

So design wise, how do you make this look with a limit of space and access?

Yeah, no, that's for sure.

That's exactly where we're at.

And it's funny because I think even a lot of the contracting and design community will just write off certain areas like that.

Wow.

They don't have the half acre, one acre lot that were used to.

But those same people, a lot of cases, I would say they have the disposable income to do it.

They have the will to do it.

And so you may need to get creative with using angular design.

Maybe there's built ins, there's vertical gardens, there's trellises.

Right.

You're creating a hybrid space, perhaps.

Or maybe you need to shift the whole outdoor living space to the front yard.

And you're seeing this happen with a lot of new construction, which was the original outdoor living space, by the way, if you go back far enough.

Amen.

But what is interesting, because I think you can still achieve a lot in a very small space.

And I always, I related back to indoor.

If you imagine if I had a 10 by 12 foot dining room, for instance, like, that's a pretty decent sized dining room, right?

Sure.

But a lot of people in their mind are like, I don't have enough space.

When they have a detached garage and you actually measure it, it's 25ft from the house and the lot's 50ft wide.

You're like, you realize you've got over a thousand square feet back here, and they don't because they're thinking their mind of this big, beautiful, expansive yard.

But when you start designing it, you're like, wow, I can really do a lot in this space.

So part of it is on us, I think, to inspire and show people that through our marketing, through some of the design tools we have through companies like Yardsen.

And we're doing that.

But I think it's just a shifting mindset of how do we meet the consumer, where they're at today with the current trends that are happening with construction overall.

And that's a big one that we're focused on, man.

No kidding.

And it's so amazing when people get the chance to rethink.

And again, that's where bringing that professional is.

Because sometimes as homeowners and even as contractors that are just out there that are maybe doing that remodel, but need to address the outdoor space as part of the project, sometimes People are, you're standing in the middle of the forest and you can't see the trees.

Sometimes bringing that fresh eyed professional that does this for a living is the smartest way to get that project off the ground.

And planning is always the key to success with any outdoor project from where I come from.

Yeah, no, 100%.

Yeah.

So, Joe, what have we not missed?

Because we're running out of time.

What have we not talked on here?

What have we missed again?

We could go for hours and go down some pretty deep rabbit holes, but what else have we not talked about?

Real quick as we wrap this up.

Yeah, we covered a lot of ground literally.

And I would just reiterate from our perspective again that I think, and this is a worldwide macro trend with all construction is this idea of this nature in built world connection.

And how do we redesign our the places we live, work and play to, to better foster that connection with the outdoor world.

And again, a lot of it's visual, a lot of it's connection, a lot of it's functional and design related.

It's all related.

But I would say for those who are listening, if you're in this space and you're a designer, you're a builder, you're a homeowner, dig in and do some research.

And we're going to be publishing some things throughout the coming year on some of the data that's out there.

But I can't stress enough.

I think the outdoor space is an antidote for a lot of the issues that plague our society in a way.

Right.

Where I think we all know we're addicted to screens.

We all know that certain things aren't quite right.

We're all, I think, longing for authentic experiences and relationships and natural experiences.

And the spaces that we build and whether we really understand it or not, are creating a vehicle for people to have those experiences.

And if you start from there, man, I just think the whole narrative changes and I only see upside from this point on for our industry and even beyond.

And so I think understanding that, learning that and then sharing that with your clients is absolutely huge and it'll be transformational.

Amen.

And if people are going to spend some screen time, they should be on your website designing and planning that space so they can escape it.

So where's the best place for them to do that?

Yeah, I would say probably for out there living in General, I'd say belgard.com, moistureshield.com or you can go right to oldcastleapg as well.com and you can see all of our brands on there.

Yeah.

That's a great website by the way.

It's got a great umbrella to really guide you into the products you might be looking at.

Oldcastle apg.

That's a great place to find stuff.

Yeah, absolutely.

To link into other sites and you can go down that rabbit hole and see all the stuff you never knew we made.

Exactly.

Joe, thanks for taking the time today, brother.

I appreciate it.

It's great bringing a professional like yourself that's got the experience and the knowledge and sharing with the audience out there so people can make the right decisions and get that backyard living or even front yard living if you're going old school.

Yeah.

For your dreams and get that built correctly.

Thanks for taking the time.

Oh man, I appreciate Eric.

It's been a pleasure and I look forward to forward to connecting some sometime again in the future.

We'll make sure make that happen.

I'm Eric G. Thanks for tuning in to around the House.

Thank you for tuning in to the first hour of the around the House show.

We will see you next time.