If you’re looking for some book recommendations, Converge church planting leaders Lee Stephenson and Danny Parmelee have got you covered.

0:18 Lee and Danny talk about their reading habits and how they’ve changed during the pandemic.

2:14 Danny and Lee discuss their preferred learning processes.

3:31 Lee shares his first book recommendation: Can’t Hurt Me by David Goggins.

5:14 Danny’s first recommendation is The Start-Up J Curve by Howard Love.

7:32 Lee’s second book recommendation is Atomic Habits by James Clear.

8:52 The second book on Danny’s list is The Motive by Patrick Lencioni.

9:58 Lee talks about a surprising choice for him: Caffeine by Michael Pollan.

11:42 Danny’s last recommendation is The Vision Driven Leader by Michael Hyatt.

12:35 Lee encourages listeners to share their top three books from the past year. You can contact Lee and Danny at churchplanting@converge.org.

Lee Stephenson: Hey, everyone, welcome to the Unfiltered podcast. My name is Lee Stephenson, executive director of church planting with Converge.

Danny Parmelee: And I’m Danny Parmelee. And I oversee church planting for Converge MidAmerica and Southeast.

Lee Stephenson: Now I saw an interview with Rick Warren, that I think was done just a year or two ago where Rick was giving a tour of his library. Evidently, Rick reads a book a day. And has read a book a day since he was 14.

Danny Parmelee: That’s crazy.

Lee Stephenson: Like his library looks like a presidential library, like it’s just massive. I was shocked looking at that tour. Is that your habit?

Danny Parmelee: Yes. Yeah, definitely not. And it is interesting, because I mean, as a pastor, you are taught you have to read all the time. And I would always have people bringing me books from the congregation or even other leaders. And I would always feel just, maybe even just a little bit ashamed. I love learning. It’s just reading is not my way that I prefer to do it.

Lee Stephenson: What is your preferred learning process?

Danny Parmelee: Yes. So for me, it really is listening. So even in college, I had to sign off on books that I would read, and I would read them to get the grade because I’m really, really competitive. But I, in my undergrad, I only missed one college class. And that was because I was subpoenaed to go to court for something. So for me, I go to class, I sit and listen. And I actually don’t even take notes. Notes aren’t something that are that are helpful for me. So for me, I’m just an auditor. Just to learn that way. And so it’s the same way with learning leadership things and church planting things.

Lee Stephenson: I’m similar. I didn’t like sitting and taking notes. I, sometimes I would tick my professors off too because I just sit there and I thought I was smug. So I’m in the room. But I for me, my I don’t know what your habit is, when it comes to digesting material. I’ve tried to keep a habit of doing that minimum book a week. And that seems to be something that I can usually keep up with. And it comes in close. Sometimes it’s two in this week. You know, I missed a week, but I have an Audible that helps with that. So we’ve put it off long enough. We’re going to go through kind of our top three books from the past year that have challenged us, meant something to us, and with a quick description of why. How did it encourage us? How did it challenge us this past year? So my first book, I’ll just start there, is the book Can’t Hurt Me by David Goggins, not a churchy book. David was the only man that kind of go through the extreme levels of all of the different military. I don’t know what you would call it — challenges. So like, go through SEAL training, go through the Air Force medic training. He’s the only guy to successfully do all of those. And now he’s kind of an ultra-endurance marathon guy, which does just extreme stuff. And so he goes through some of his backstory, and then just talks about the mental toughness that’s been required for him to become who he is today, and it’s probably the most extreme ultra endurance, you know, marathoner when it comes to just whatever’s out there. He does and tackles at a high level. And this is a book I enjoyed reading, because it has that competitive element. But I think the thing for me personally, that was also really telltale was just the grit factor that this guy has just to push himself to the limits that are not normal. And realizing like our body has the ability to go beyond what sometimes we think it can and I think he put that in the ministry context that wonder how much more that God’s just saying, Hey, would you just push a little bit more, just trust me, like, we will get through this, I’m with you. And on the other side of this, you’ll be better for it. And so I just it strokes my personality, love the book, I would highly recommend it for somebody to just sit and kind of go through.

Danny Parmelee: That’s great. And if someone gave me the option right now of an ultramarathon or planting a church, I may just pick ultramarathon with the times that we’re in. So we’ll start off with mine is actually one that I just finished recently, a couple weeks ago, and it’s called The Start-Up J Curve. And it’s by Howard Love. This also is not a church book. It’s actually primarily about startups in general, but software kind of development startup, this kind of a little side passion of mine. But the reason why I’m sharing it on this podcast, because of course, as I’m listening to it, I’m listening even through the lens of the startup as it relates to church planting. And what’s so important, I think that’s maybe even a little bit of a shift or difference in how we have trained church planners is that we have them focus a lot on kind of the launch. And we kind of see it as an upward like, Hey, you start with two people in your living room, and then it grows to five and 10. And your budget continues to go up and up and up. And we kind of see this upward trajectory, where when he talks about general startup, that there’s this dip that kind of happens in the beginning, that’s of course, the J curve, kind of part of it. But the other big part, even within software development, which is called agile Scrum talks about iterations. And I think that that’s really important for church planters. Instead of like, hey, you’re going to package this perfect plan, you’re going to do this 30-page prospectus and then all you do is just execute it, is it you are experimental, you’re trying things and as you try different things, you’re going to get feedback, both from the community, feedback from your leaders, feedback from the volunteers, and then you have to shift and to change. And I just think that that’s something that we maybe haven’t even trained our church planters well enough that it’s not about just executing your 30-page prospectus and business plan, but are saying, we’re going to try some different things to reach people for Christ. And as we get feedback that’s positive, we’ll continue to go down that direction. But we may need to scrap stuff. But instead, we’ve told people, OK, you need this vision frame, you need this and you just stick to the plan, stick to the strategic plan. If you go away from the strategic plan, then you know, you’re kind of failing. So I just I really liked it. It’s a very quick lesson, so to speak, and it’s pretty engaging.

Lee Stephenson: But I would say, you know, this past season, everybody has been forced at a level to rethink that perspective. Yeah, I think that’s a healthy thing. For me, my second book, I would say, is Atomic Habits by James Clear, and I know it’s been around for a little bit. But when COVID hit, it was one of those moments even for me, just for a season, a self-reflection can go on, hey, this is an opportunity to slow down and rethink the rhythms of life. And where am I at? What needs to change? Now I have I feel like when everything shut down, I have margin. Right now I this is the time for me to recalibrate, where’s my heart? Where’s my head? Where’s my physical health? Are there things that need to change in order for long-term ministry and health to be able to continue and I just love James’ perspective. Like, he articulates things so well. And just walking through how our habits really shape who we are. And even the small things that you got to pay attention to, will help lead to great things down the road. And so if you haven’t read that, highly recommend it, any church plant, I think you should read it, because I do think it helps put it into perspective, why are you actually doing the things that you need to do and maybe you should scrap that and start actually focusing on this?

Danny Parmelee: That’s great. That was one of mine, as well, too, but not on my list. So my second one is The Motive by Patrick Lencioni. And again, he does just a great job of kind of using a story to kind of teach a larger principle. And I think the big thing as I was reading through that is just how church planters can have more of even a kingdom mindset. So within The Motive, there’s kind of this fictitious company that’s helped by another company and thinking how sometimes collaboration and just not having as church planters we’re so often insecure, or pastors in general, insecure about our territory, and we see the other, you know, the other churches and pastors out there as competition. And so we’re making all these decisions based on trying to kind of like protect ourselves instead of saying, hey, what if our motive really was to serve so kind of that hero maker thought process and mentality really comes out in the book and I think it’s just a good reminder for all of us that are in this is just kind of looking at our motives for doing things and how we can serve and help other people.

Lee Stephenson: That’s great. My last one, I’m straying from my normal formula. OK, so this may surprise people because it’s not like, but I really enjoyed the book. And I’m not a fiction reader. So it’s no matter what fiction didn’t make my list. But it’s a book called Caffeine. And it’s written by a guy named Michael Pollan. And he just goes through the history of how caffeine came to be and how it is used throughout society historically. And even when you think through Industrial Revolution, how the Industrial Revolution was pushed forward, just because of caffeine becoming more readily available. And it made you think through even your own personal addictions, what actually takes place physiologically from caffeine. I haven’t given up caffeine. I still drink my morning coffee. But I do regulate my caffeine a little differently than I did. I would say, before I read that, where I’m a little bit more cognizant of, it does have some effects, and even how it connects to our sleep is different than most of us would probably even realize. And it’s not that my sleep’s gotten better because of that, but I’m hoping that someday that that’ll change. But if you just kind of want to out of the normal reading, you know, that I really, really enjoyed the book and just taught me a lot. Somewhere it will get used in a sermon illustration too probably.

Danny Parmelee: That’s great. Yeah, I mean, I didn’t get to see your list before. And as you were starting to mention this, I was thinking, you know, maybe like this Fabio type of, you know, book, I’m like, Oh, we say this as unfiltered, but is Lee really about to cross the line right now? So you did it. Alright, my last one is Vision Driven Leader by Michael Hyatt. And then Michael Hyatt has just tons of great leadership stuff. There’s nothing that is blow you away that you’ve never heard before. But especially in the area of church planting. In the beginning, all you are doing is selling a dream and a vision, you’ve got nothing except for some ideas in your head. And from getting those first few team members, whether you’re doing a pioneer plant, or whether you’re even you know, being sent out from your home church and you have relationships, you are still having to cast vision that preferred future for people to follow. And of course, my hope and prayers as church planters are doing this, that it’s not just their own ideas, but they’re truly seeking the Lord and that that they are fulfilling really the vision that God has given them and not just some new and creative idea.

Lee Stephenson: I love it. Love it. Well, those are kind of our top three over the last year, we’d love to hear from you. What have you been reading this past year that’s meant something to you, challenge you and encourage you? Again, no fiction. But if you would drop us a line, either through social media, connect with Danny Parmelee, connect with me Lee Stephenson, or you could just email us at churchplanting@converge.org and we’d love to be able to just hear what you’re reading and add it to our list as well. Guys, until next time, keep it real.