Episode 7 – The JudgeMental Podcast: Judicial Accountability, Real Courtroom Stories, and Why It Matters

In this powerful episode, hosts Hugh and Christine —two seasoned lawyers and the minds behind Judge-y —pull back the curtain on the realities of the family court system. They celebrate the launch of their podcast, share the overwhelming feedback from listeners, and issue a call to action for both attorneys and the public to demand more from the judiciary.

Key Topics:

• The importance of judicial accountability and transparency, and why it’s time to judge the judges.
• Personal stories from the courtroom: the trauma caused by abrupt custody decisions, the emotional toll on families, and the challenges attorneys face when advocating for their clients.
• Honest conversations about the fear lawyers feel when speaking out against judges, and why it’s crucial to put clients first—even at personal or professional risk.
• A candid look at the mental health crisis in the legal profession, including the high rates of attorney burnout and suicide.
• Listener questions: How to choose the right attorney, what to look for in legal representation, and why communication and trust are essential.
• A viral “judge moment” dissected: the pros and cons of Zoom court, courtroom etiquette, and the human side of legal proceedings.
• The myth of the “one big club” in the legal system, and why Hugh and Christine are committed to exposing and changing the status quo.

Interactive Elements:

• The hosts answer questions submitted via social media and encourage listeners to keep sending their stories and concerns.
• Listeners are invited to follow, share, and engage with Judge-y on all platforms, and to participate in the movement for better courts.

Call to Action:

If you care about justice, transparency, and real change in the courts, this episode is for you. Join the conversation, share your experiences, and help hold the system accountable—one story at a time.

Connect with Judge-y:

• Website: judgey.com
• TikTok: @judge_y
• Instagram: @judgingthejudges
• Host: @KentuckyChristine

Send in your questions, stories, and viral judge clips for a chance to be featured in future episodes!

You are listening to

The Judgemental Podcast.

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We're Hugh and Christine, the Minds

Behind Judgy, the revolutionary app

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that empowers you to judge the judges.

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It's pastime for judicial accountability

and transparency within the courts.

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Prepare for sharp insights, candid

critiques, and unshakable honesty from

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two lawyers determined to save the system.

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We need some justice.

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Justice, my fine justice.

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And I wanna ring, be in public.

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I wanna ring, be in public crowd.

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Yeah.

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Christine: All right.

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Welcome to the Judgmental podcast.

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Today we are gonna celebrate

our first podcast drop Today we

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are getting amazing feedback.

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We also have a message for the attorneys.

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We've got a message for the public.

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We've got a call to action for y'all.

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We're also gonna talk about the issues

that we experienced in court, and

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most importantly, we're gonna address.

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Some of the questions that

you've submitted to my

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Facebook, TikTok, Instagram.

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Ask us questions.

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Ask us questions.

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Ask us questions.

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Hugh, how you feeling today?

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Hugh: Awesome.

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I think yeah, a little bit tired.

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Yeah.

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Late night of work to get

stuff over to the finish line.

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I think it'll be easier next

time we running into some.

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Some, platform gatekeeping.

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'cause we submitted before we got

verified on there and yeah, all

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the growing pains, so that's fine.

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Yes.

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I mean, having

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Christine: a podcast was

literally a dream of mine.

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Like I'm, this is so fun.

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I know it's a heavy topic.

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But this is really fun and I do think

we're gonna make a huge difference.

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Hugh: Well, good.

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I mean, that's.

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I wouldn't be doing it if

I didn't feel that we were.

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Christine: And I kind of wanna start

with a message to attorneys and I

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wanna talk about, I've got nothing

but positive feedback from lawyers.

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And I want attorneys to realize,

'cause I do know, and we've talked

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about this before, that there is this

fear and speaking out against them.

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Because against whom?

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Against the judges.

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Because they'll retaliate against you.

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But I want you to think about it like

this, and I am guilty of not fighting

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the system and bucking the system as much

as I should have while I was practicing.

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I, I mean, 100%.

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A lot of guilt.

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That being said, I think when

clients come to you, you have to

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be an advocate for your client.

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The pendulum is swinging and

clients don't wanna hire lawyers

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that are scared of judges.

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What do you think?

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Hugh: I agree.

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I think that's feedback I

got for a long time mm-hmm.

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Was that I would fight the judge back

and I would be told thank you afterwards

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because, you know, if, if my client

was just getting run over the, I, I

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remember how uncomfortable it was early

in my career where I just thought, I,

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is it my place to say something here?

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Mm-hmm.

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I think that was completely inappropriate,

but I , I wouldn't speak out and

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I just, I, it was hard to sleep.

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Yeah, I would, I would

just be so upset about it.

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And when I finally just started pushing

back a little bit, when I would see

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something incorrect, I never, ever

received, I don't believe a single

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time where a client said, oh, maybe

we should have calmed down, or maybe

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we shouldn't have done that 100.

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And, and I will say to the attorneys

out there , that are afraid of doing it.

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Could it affect other cases you

have in front of that judge?

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Absolutely.

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I experienced it.

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But my point of view was always that

I was an advocate for that client and

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that case in that courtroom, and I

could not be thinking about my business.

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I could not be thinking

about the other cases.

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Now I was fortunate enough to

be part of a team, and if I.

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Spoke out or did something that

would put me at odds with the judge.

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I had other attorneys that could handle

other matters that were in front of

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that same judge so that I, you know,

I got to think about that as well.

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So you had the opportunity

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Christine: really kind of to think about

it, like for a cooling off period, which

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I didn't have as a solo practitioner.

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Yeah.

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Hugh: No, no, no.

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I agree.

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But I, I think you have to advocate

for your client if your client's rights

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are not being, or they're, they're

being trampled on in some cases,

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and I know that sounds hyperbolic,

but that's what was happening.

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, There was nothing else to

do, but speak out about it,

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Christine: y'all.

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You can't believe how bad it

actually is in some instances.

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Like truly cannot believe

it unless you see it.

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Which I think is to segue to the

point of why we're doing judgy.

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'cause I will tell you, like even I

left about two years ago and , obviously

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super supportive family, super supportive

friends, all of the, the, a great network.

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But I was speaking to my mother after

I posted the baby case where the

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judge, without due process, made

the dad who'd been the sole provider

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for this baby hand the baby over

in open court without a hearing.

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And the court of appeals said this

was a gross miscarriage of justice.

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Like I remember my mom called

me and was like, holy shit,

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like that actually happens.

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Okay?

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And I was like, I've been telling

you for two years how bad it is.

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And she's like, . We believe you.

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But it's just different until

you see it with your own eyes.

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Hugh: It's heartbreaking when you see it.

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And I, hell, I was about, I still

am one of the most jaded people.

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You know, I think people from outside

of my legal world are a little bit

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afraid of how jaded I am and how,

, sort of numb I am to certain things.

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I was shocked at how shaken I was a

couple times where I would see a judge get

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angry and just take someone's child away.

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Right then and there and tell the

other side, you're gonna go pick

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the child up right now, they're

not gonna live with you anymore.

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And just like, do these things.

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Without thinking about what

the, the real world consequences

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for the parties or for the kid?

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Christine: Yeah, or the kid.

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Like the kid.

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Hugh: I'm talking about a 2-year-old.

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One time I saw it happen,

it immediately afterwards.

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And, , I tried to negotiate for some time

so there could be a conversation about,

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oh, you're not gonna live with us anymore.

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Even though the child had lived with

my clients from the time she was

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born I guess she came from home from

the hospital to my clients and the

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judge just decided to change things.

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He was upset, wanted to move things

forward, wanted to finalize the

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case, and said, oh, you know, the

biological mom had finally done

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everything that she needed to do.

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So the child just.

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I'm gonna go home right

after this hearing.

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The child was living out of town.

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My clients had driven in from out of town.

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So had the child ever had

an overnight straight?

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I don't know if we had started overnights.

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There may have been a few,

but Minimal overnights.

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But minimal.

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Oh, it was minimal.

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The, the regular visitation only started

a, a couple months before, 'cause

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it'd been years with, with nothing.

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So this was like almost.

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An unknown person.

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Yeah.

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This is somebody that the child was

still getting to know that then all

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of a sudden you're going to live

with this person immediately with no

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visitation to the person that raised

the child because they're not a party.

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So I can't order a visitation.

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Just you're cut off.

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Thanks for, you know, except for

there was never any thank you to the

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people that had raised the child.

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Just, okay, we're done.

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Now Child's going back right now.

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No transition period.

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Not even time for a conversation about it.

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Christine: And, and we're not

psychologists obviously, . I mean,

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we're human beings and we have Google

and there's no way, in my opinion, a.

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That that can't have caused significant

trauma attachment issues for that

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child that that child will suffer with

for the rest of that child's life.

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Like, I'm not even being dramatic,

like that child has been set up by

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this judge to be more likely to suffer

from substance abuse, eating disorders,

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abusive relationships all of those things.

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I mean, I know that probably upsets

you 'cause you know these people,

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but that's the reality in my opinion.

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Oh no.

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Hugh: Listen, they, they know

and have done their research.

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They were very intelligent clients and

it made it much harder because they knew

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mm-hmm.

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The

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Hugh: damage that it was going to do.

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They understood all of those

things to the extent that you can.

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Yeah.

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Hugh: You know, but they, yeah, and they

knew, and, and to this day, that's still

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the custodial situation of that case.

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And they were denied, , being a party.

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Now, you know, that, that was reversed

by the Court of appeals in that case.

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And, . Now they are a party, but you

know, they're making up for years

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and may be fighting for a child that

doesn't remember a whole lot about.

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Living with them and that they were,

or learn to disassociate at an early

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Christine: age was just like,

okay, there is no stability for me.

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Like I don't have a safe place

because someone wearing a black

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robe doesn't understand a basic

dignity humanity or respect.

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Hugh: I would, I would really like to

have, , conversations with a psychologist

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here on the podcast to talk about.

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You know, what types of issues that

can cause for children when that is

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done, because it happens so often

and I, when that happened, Hmm, I,

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I couldn't believe that that was a

regular part of what was going on.

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But because I fought in that case

and I filed appeals and I filed Ritz.

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I had people start reaching out

to me, other attorneys saying,

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I've got this nasty case.

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I don't, I've never dealt

with anything like this.

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Maybe you could help or maybe

you could help these people.

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And I started talking to people

almost on a weekly basis that

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something like that had happened.

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And that was just in one county.

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Yeah.

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And I realized that people from other

counties started reaching out to me.

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Then I started hearing from

people in other states mm-hmm.

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That were reaching out to me about similar

issues that they had had, and it was just.

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I don't know how they had found out.

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You know, about my case.

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I know that I, my clients had been

pretty activist in working, trying

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to change legislation to have rights

for people that were either foster

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parents or not foster parent, third

party caregivers and things like that.

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, But I was just amazed to find

out that this was happening.

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All over the place, probably

all over the country.

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I knew that it was happening

all over the state.

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Christine: A hundred percent.

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And that goes back, we talked

about this on a previous podcast.

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I wanna touch on it a little bit.

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'cause I'm in the same boat.

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I get so many questions

like, how did you not know?

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How did you not know?

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How did you not know?

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And I did know it was bad, but I didn't

know it was this bad because for the most

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part, most of my practice was resolved

in mediation and it certainly wasn't

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on the docket that you're talking about

this dependency, neglect and abuse.

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Sure.

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And you know, in hindsight.

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I realize if they were doing

this shit to my clients that were

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paying me great money, I mean,

225

00:09:54,468 --> 00:09:56,148

Hugh: imagine what they're

doing to people that don't have

226

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attorneys representing them every

227

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Christine: day.

228

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Hugh: Yeah.

229

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, And just for those listening in these

cases, the parents whose children are

230

00:10:04,928 --> 00:10:08,978

removed from have a right to counsel,

the child has a right to counsel.

231

00:10:08,978 --> 00:10:12,788

So they're provided with attorneys, the

third party caregivers who the children.

232

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What would be like an our placed with?

233

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Yeah,

234

00:10:14,873 --> 00:10:16,478

Christine: but what would be

an example of like third party?

235

00:10:16,478 --> 00:10:17,978

When you say that, you

mean like foster parents,

236

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grandparents, and, well, so foster

237

00:10:19,448 --> 00:10:20,708

Hugh: parents don't get custody.

238

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Mm-hmm.

239

00:10:21,128 --> 00:10:22,628

Foster parents have a child.

240

00:10:22,658 --> 00:10:25,088

Have the child, but custody

still remains with the cabinet.

241

00:10:25,088 --> 00:10:29,048

The cabinet has ultimate control with

third party caretakers, either family

242

00:10:29,048 --> 00:10:31,058

members, fictive, kin, someone like that.

243

00:10:31,868 --> 00:10:34,328

They actually have

custody of the child and

244

00:10:35,948 --> 00:10:36,878

Christine: on a temporary basis.

245

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On a

246

00:10:37,088 --> 00:10:39,578

Hugh: temporary basis, so it

can be snatched away from them.

247

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A moment's notice, which is often

exactly what happens and they have

248

00:10:44,048 --> 00:10:45,848

no right to counsel whatsoever.

249

00:10:45,848 --> 00:10:51,898

So I learned about this because it was

happening to clients with me fighting

250

00:10:51,898 --> 00:10:53,698

tooth and nail representing them.

251

00:10:53,698 --> 00:10:56,518

And I just couldn't imagine until

people started reaching out to

252

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me what was happening to people

that didn't have attorneys.

253

00:10:59,218 --> 00:11:00,928

Christine: And you were a

machine, I mean, your firm,

254

00:11:00,928 --> 00:11:01,913

y'all were in six states, right?

255

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Hugh: 5,

256

00:11:02,823 --> 00:11:03,793

Christine: 5, 6 offices.

257

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Hugh: Yeah.

258

00:11:04,213 --> 00:11:06,253

Christine: I mean, this

was a major machine too.

259

00:11:06,253 --> 00:11:09,133

This wasn't even like a

solo practitioner scenario.

260

00:11:09,283 --> 00:11:09,343

No.

261

00:11:09,348 --> 00:11:09,459

We had, we

262

00:11:09,464 --> 00:11:13,843

Hugh: had a lot of attorneys and we all

experienced, you know, similar things.

263

00:11:13,873 --> 00:11:17,483

Actually some of the attorneys, some of

my partners that I worked with were in

264

00:11:17,483 --> 00:11:19,163

states where they were appalled by that.

265

00:11:19,163 --> 00:11:23,003

And, and truth be told, they hadn't

seen that types of thing happen.

266

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But also, as you said, most of our

work especially, , attorneys at.

267

00:11:29,203 --> 00:11:33,083

Mid-size firms or even small attorneys

that have been in practice for a

268

00:11:33,083 --> 00:11:35,723

long time, they don't do a lot of

dependency, neglect, and abuse cases.

269

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I

270

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Christine: didn't like, literally,

like I said before, maybe

271

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Hugh: yeah,

272

00:11:37,978 --> 00:11:38,908

Christine: 10, 15 cases.

273

00:11:38,908 --> 00:11:38,998

A

274

00:11:38,998 --> 00:11:41,638

Hugh: lot of times you're dealing with

people that can't afford a private

275

00:11:41,638 --> 00:11:46,888

attorney or, you know, I, I did some

early on and, and actually enjoyed them

276

00:11:46,888 --> 00:11:50,218

because of what was at stake and that

you got to be in court an awful lot.

277

00:11:50,218 --> 00:11:51,598

So, earlier in my career, I did it.

278

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Unfortunately, I, I ended up with clients

most of the time who just wouldn't clean

279

00:11:56,218 --> 00:11:57,628

up and they wouldn't follow the orders.

280

00:11:57,628 --> 00:11:59,549

And it was just a foregone

conclusion that mm-hmm.

281

00:11:59,978 --> 00:12:02,798

Permanent custody was gonna be

granted to someone else eventually,

282

00:12:02,798 --> 00:12:05,758

because I'm dealing with someone

with substance abuse issues and they

283

00:12:05,758 --> 00:12:07,018

won't take advantage of the help.

284

00:12:07,068 --> 00:12:08,028

, And, you know, I was.

285

00:12:08,673 --> 00:12:11,283

I was getting them every chance

possible, but it kind of got me a

286

00:12:11,283 --> 00:12:16,843

little disillusioned with the process

until I had clients who hired me on

287

00:12:16,843 --> 00:12:18,493

circuit court, things like adoptions.

288

00:12:18,493 --> 00:12:21,963

I did a lot of adoption practice

and I did a lot of, complex, messy,

289

00:12:22,143 --> 00:12:24,693

contested adoptions, multi-state

adoptions, things like that.

290

00:12:24,963 --> 00:12:27,693

And they started reaching out to me and

there would be a dependency, neglect,

291

00:12:27,693 --> 00:12:31,443

and abuse component because there would

have to be a termination from the natural

292

00:12:31,443 --> 00:12:32,943

parent before the adoption could be done.

293

00:12:32,943 --> 00:12:36,243

And I started getting involved in those

cases for people that could afford my

294

00:12:36,243 --> 00:12:40,803

services and started seeing just how

irregularly the proceed proceeding were.

295

00:12:40,803 --> 00:12:41,228

How massive of the problem was.

296

00:12:41,228 --> 00:12:42,068

Yeah, I mean it, yeah.

297

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Absolutely shocking.

298

00:12:43,968 --> 00:12:47,688

Christine: And so you said like 47

legal words in a matter of Yeah.

299

00:12:47,748 --> 00:12:48,738

32 words.

300

00:12:48,738 --> 00:12:49,611

No, I didn't do that.

301

00:12:49,616 --> 00:12:49,813

Yeah.

302

00:12:50,268 --> 00:12:53,858

But, so we talked about temporary

custody, permanent custody, then

303

00:12:53,858 --> 00:12:56,348

circuit court actions and we're

really not given legal advice.

304

00:12:56,348 --> 00:12:59,168

But there was a court of appeals

opinion that came down I think

305

00:12:59,168 --> 00:13:03,248

last year, but on this dependency

neglection abuse docket, which is

306

00:13:03,248 --> 00:13:05,168

essentially a district court docket.

307

00:13:05,528 --> 00:13:10,208

Permanent custody doesn't really mean

permanent in the way listeners are.

308

00:13:10,208 --> 00:13:12,668

So people will think they have

this piece of paper like, oh

309

00:13:12,668 --> 00:13:14,318

yay, I got permanent custody.

310

00:13:14,318 --> 00:13:17,078

And then you get a lawyer, you

go file, file a circuit action.

311

00:13:17,108 --> 00:13:19,838

And that permanent custody

means little to not

312

00:13:19,898 --> 00:13:24,098

Hugh: Well, and you know, this is very

limited in scope to Kentucky as well.

313

00:13:24,098 --> 00:13:24,398

Christine: Yeah.

314

00:13:24,488 --> 00:13:26,708

Hugh: So, and that, that is a

term that you don't even hear use

315

00:13:26,708 --> 00:13:31,238

much in Kentucky, use it usually

just here in independency cases.

316

00:13:31,238 --> 00:13:31,328

Mm-hmm.

317

00:13:31,334 --> 00:13:31,774

And again.

318

00:13:32,639 --> 00:13:34,079

Not getting into legal too much.

319

00:13:34,079 --> 00:13:37,619

Legal analysis is certainly not

legal advice, but yeah, permanent

320

00:13:37,829 --> 00:13:42,569

custody in general is until a child

becomes an adult, is something that

321

00:13:42,569 --> 00:13:47,430

is always fluid and there's very

little you can do to, you know.

322

00:13:48,239 --> 00:13:50,939

There are circumstances where

you can imagine that a, a parent

323

00:13:50,939 --> 00:13:53,814

could never regain custodial

rights, but it's very rare.

324

00:13:54,014 --> 00:13:54,176

I mean, very rare.

325

00:13:54,329 --> 00:13:55,889

There's always something that can change.

326

00:13:55,919 --> 00:13:58,379

Christine: One of the biggest

annoyances I think people have with

327

00:13:58,379 --> 00:14:02,579

lawyers is the answer to any question

anyone ask ever is It depends.

328

00:14:02,669 --> 00:14:02,694

It depends.

329

00:14:02,694 --> 00:14:02,814

Yeah.

330

00:14:03,929 --> 00:14:04,021

It's definitely true.

331

00:14:04,164 --> 00:14:07,944

And it does, it depends, and I

think this is what's so important.

332

00:14:08,194 --> 00:14:09,934

Well, one, the laws are written terribly.

333

00:14:09,934 --> 00:14:13,474

The legislature needs to do some

work to clean up some of this mess.

334

00:14:13,804 --> 00:14:17,524

And I got a couple comments

like, well, the public doesn't

335

00:14:17,524 --> 00:14:18,694

care about what judges do.

336

00:14:18,694 --> 00:14:20,284

We all know that the public doesn't care.

337

00:14:20,284 --> 00:14:20,824

They're gonna vote.

338

00:14:20,884 --> 00:14:24,944

For the blondness of the blonde, blonde

on the street corner with the yard sign.

339

00:14:24,944 --> 00:14:25,724

You know what I'm saying?

340

00:14:26,414 --> 00:14:27,884

Hugh: I or the family name they recognize.

341

00:14:27,944 --> 00:14:28,574

Christine: Yes.

342

00:14:28,744 --> 00:14:32,194

But I think I really do, and I know

I'm gonna say this, , this is the

343

00:14:32,194 --> 00:14:33,874

second time I've used this verbiage.

344

00:14:33,874 --> 00:14:34,654

The pendulum has.

345

00:14:34,704 --> 00:14:35,814

Swung the other way.

346

00:14:35,814 --> 00:14:37,794

Legislatures, people, the public.

347

00:14:37,794 --> 00:14:43,434

If you care about this issue, you need

to follow share like this podcast.

348

00:14:43,494 --> 00:14:45,714

Also message your local legislature.

349

00:14:45,954 --> 00:14:49,704

There are massive movements in Arizona

and Idaho right now where they're doing

350

00:14:49,704 --> 00:14:53,904

task force to analyze what's happening in

family court and it's making global news.

351

00:14:55,844 --> 00:14:58,964

Hugh: I cannot wait to see because

I mean, it's, it is sort of

352

00:14:59,174 --> 00:15:00,464

the question I have in my mind.

353

00:15:00,514 --> 00:15:03,214

People are certainly reaching

out to us at numbers that I did

354

00:15:03,214 --> 00:15:07,314

not expect even, , being very

optimistic when we started this.

355

00:15:07,824 --> 00:15:13,414

But , I'm really curious to find

out in the next election cycle

356

00:15:14,614 --> 00:15:17,704

whether reality and conduct.

357

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Plays a role or if it's just simply

who shows up at more community

358

00:15:21,559 --> 00:15:23,839

events and who has more yard signs?

359

00:15:23,839 --> 00:15:24,139

I'm,

360

00:15:24,409 --> 00:15:25,579

Christine: here's what

I think we could do.

361

00:15:25,669 --> 00:15:26,564

I really do, and we, it would.

362

00:15:27,184 --> 00:15:29,524

Require the local bar to get unified.

363

00:15:29,914 --> 00:15:32,254

But so we've got the family bar, right?

364

00:15:32,254 --> 00:15:32,974

10 judges.

365

00:15:32,974 --> 00:15:35,204

We get a hundred attorneys

to put their name in a hat.

366

00:15:35,234 --> 00:15:38,654

We draw them all like, and

we'll draw 10 for division one.

367

00:15:38,654 --> 00:15:41,894

They all put their name in for

Division one, 10 for division two.

368

00:15:41,894 --> 00:15:43,664

So then you'll have 11 people running.

369

00:15:43,964 --> 00:15:46,424

It will be a absolute shit show.

370

00:15:46,424 --> 00:15:50,404

Some incumbents will get kicked out

and , they will realize there are

371

00:15:50,404 --> 00:15:52,654

more of us than there are y'all.

372

00:15:55,399 --> 00:15:58,189

I, I've proposed this before it would

373

00:15:58,189 --> 00:15:58,879

work.

374

00:15:59,329 --> 00:16:01,219

Hugh: You're telling me you

can find 10 people you think

375

00:16:01,219 --> 00:16:02,749

would be no good for the bench?

376

00:16:02,799 --> 00:16:02,889

Christine: For

377

00:16:02,889 --> 00:16:03,669

Hugh: each division,

378

00:16:03,789 --> 00:16:06,099

Christine: I can find a hundred

people that would be better for

379

00:16:06,099 --> 00:16:07,629

the bench than the 10 we got now.

380

00:16:09,009 --> 00:16:09,159

Hugh: Okay.

381

00:16:09,159 --> 00:16:10,554

And I've said it and I'll say it again.

382

00:16:10,554 --> 00:16:11,529

It's a different statement.

383

00:16:11,529 --> 00:16:14,649

, My, my thing I always thought

that, you know, it's one, one

384

00:16:14,649 --> 00:16:18,909

place to, I can point out errors,

I can point out inconsistencies.

385

00:16:19,374 --> 00:16:22,674

It's very different in clearly

recognizing there's a problem.

386

00:16:22,944 --> 00:16:25,344

And then there's another thing

about going in and doing it better.

387

00:16:25,464 --> 00:16:28,464

And I think that by the time you get

to the point where you understand

388

00:16:28,464 --> 00:16:33,084

what the problem is as an attorney,

you're not gonna go and be a judge or.

389

00:16:34,344 --> 00:16:36,394

You know, the , same thing

I thought with mediation.

390

00:16:36,394 --> 00:16:41,014

I've always been impressed with the

attorneys that I practiced against

391

00:16:41,014 --> 00:16:42,784

who could also be good mediators.

392

00:16:42,814 --> 00:16:42,904

Mm-hmm.

393

00:16:43,144 --> 00:16:47,854

Because switching between the

advocacy mode that I spent 20

394

00:16:47,854 --> 00:16:52,544

years developing, switching to a

neutral position I couldn't do it.

395

00:16:52,719 --> 00:16:56,004

I don't believe that while I was.

396

00:16:56,779 --> 00:16:58,999

Doing the litigation, I could do that.

397

00:16:58,999 --> 00:17:02,209

I think I would have to,

it would be a big shift.

398

00:17:02,209 --> 00:17:05,479

Now, I guess if you're not, you're as a

judge, you're not litigating at the same

399

00:17:05,479 --> 00:17:07,848

time, so I guess you can make that switch.

400

00:17:07,999 --> 00:17:10,608

But I think it would be quite the process.

401

00:17:10,608 --> 00:17:14,809

I think I would need some definite time

off after my, the litigation part of

402

00:17:14,809 --> 00:17:16,398

my career before I jumped into that.

403

00:17:16,534 --> 00:17:17,733

Christine: Well, I, I, I don't disagree.

404

00:17:17,733 --> 00:17:21,273

And that goes to show we got

a lot of retired judges that

405

00:17:21,273 --> 00:17:22,233

are out there mediating.

406

00:17:22,233 --> 00:17:22,324

Mm-hmm.

407

00:17:22,564 --> 00:17:24,214

And I think that's a real problem.

408

00:17:24,424 --> 00:17:27,983

Also, one of the real problems, you say

a hundred, , attorneys, now I'm saying

409

00:17:27,983 --> 00:17:31,704

attorneys that practice family law, would

they be better than the ones we have?

410

00:17:31,704 --> 00:17:32,694

And I do think they would.

411

00:17:32,694 --> 00:17:33,534

And here's why.

412

00:17:33,954 --> 00:17:36,444

Let's look at the current

bench that we have now.

413

00:17:36,474 --> 00:17:41,964

How many of the current 10

judges on the bench have ever

414

00:17:41,964 --> 00:17:44,634

represented a client in their life?

415

00:17:45,969 --> 00:17:46,989

Hugh: I don't know the answer to that.

416

00:17:47,259 --> 00:17:49,239

Christine: If you are a prosecutor,

you ain't never had a client.

417

00:17:50,139 --> 00:17:51,189

Hi Christine Ward.

418

00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:52,929

What have you been doing?

419

00:17:52,989 --> 00:17:58,239

She's never had a client, or if she

did, it was extraordinarily limited.

420

00:17:58,419 --> 00:17:59,949

I mean, how many people

have you represented?

421

00:18:00,099 --> 00:18:00,789

Thousands.

422

00:18:01,404 --> 00:18:02,214

Hugh: Oh, well over.

423

00:18:02,364 --> 00:18:02,634

Christine: Oh yeah.

424

00:18:02,634 --> 00:18:04,434

I mean, my public defender

rate is probably 10,000.

425

00:18:04,439 --> 00:18:08,904

I mean, I can't even, like I practiced

in 50 counties, maybe more, but until

426

00:18:08,904 --> 00:18:11,514

you actually, how the fuck, sorry.

427

00:18:11,664 --> 00:18:15,414

How can you get up on the bench, sit

there and make decisions about people's

428

00:18:15,414 --> 00:18:19,914

lives, and you have no idea of what

it's like to actually be able to tell

429

00:18:19,914 --> 00:18:22,284

a client, Hey, this is what the law is.

430

00:18:22,284 --> 00:18:23,274

Hey, this is my advice.

431

00:18:23,274 --> 00:18:24,414

Have you ever thought about it like that?

432

00:18:24,534 --> 00:18:27,534

Hugh: Yeah, I have, but , only

in the, only to the extent that.

433

00:18:28,644 --> 00:18:33,264

A judge is frustrated with me

because my client wants to go

434

00:18:33,264 --> 00:18:35,214

forward on something that Right.

435

00:18:35,304 --> 00:18:35,664

You know?

436

00:18:35,664 --> 00:18:36,954

But, but I think that's different.

437

00:18:37,014 --> 00:18:42,294

I mean, I, I, those times I get frustrated

because I think I do you, you really

438

00:18:42,294 --> 00:18:45,615

have never been in my shoes, and they're

not understanding that I can't gimme

439

00:18:45,615 --> 00:18:46,724

more facts, can't tell my client.

440

00:18:46,724 --> 00:18:51,464

So anyway, let's say you, we've

all had clients that they have

441

00:18:51,464 --> 00:18:52,604

something they wanna fight over.

442

00:18:52,604 --> 00:18:52,694

Mm-hmm.

443

00:18:52,934 --> 00:18:55,244

It's not frivolous or we wouldn't

be bringing it before the court.

444

00:18:56,069 --> 00:19:00,359

It isn't worth the money that they

are going to pay to fight over it.

445

00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:04,199

It's gonna take up court time from things

that really are much more important,

446

00:19:04,199 --> 00:19:05,579

but it's just a matter of principle.

447

00:19:05,579 --> 00:19:06,899

So that happens a lot.

448

00:19:06,899 --> 00:19:07,769

It's frustrating.

449

00:19:07,769 --> 00:19:10,319

It certainly is frustrating

to the attorneys.

450

00:19:10,349 --> 00:19:10,439

Mm-hmm.

451

00:19:10,889 --> 00:19:12,629

It's very frustrating to the courts.

452

00:19:12,749 --> 00:19:18,029

But when the judge would, a judge would

get frustrated with me because my client

453

00:19:18,029 --> 00:19:19,829

insists on going forward with something.

454

00:19:20,129 --> 00:19:25,289

And I could tell that they've never had

to have the client control part of their,

455

00:19:25,799 --> 00:19:29,939

you know, in their career and understand

how that works and understand that we

456

00:19:29,939 --> 00:19:31,889

don't get to tell our clients what to do.

457

00:19:31,889 --> 00:19:32,999

We advise them.

458

00:19:32,999 --> 00:19:33,089

Mm-hmm.

459

00:19:33,479 --> 00:19:37,139

And if they choose to go forward

with something, we have to advise

460

00:19:37,139 --> 00:19:39,654

them as whether that's wise or

best use of their time or money.

461

00:19:39,674 --> 00:19:40,979

But as long as it's not frivolous.

462

00:19:41,339 --> 00:19:43,199

Our job is to go in and hear that.

463

00:19:43,469 --> 00:19:44,939

That's where it really frustrated me.

464

00:19:44,944 --> 00:19:45,004

Yep.

465

00:19:45,009 --> 00:19:48,419

That when someone has never represented

clients and doesn't understand,

466

00:19:48,419 --> 00:19:51,119

and they're getting very, you know,

they're getting upset with me and

467

00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:53,249

acting like I'm wasting their time.

468

00:19:53,429 --> 00:19:53,519

Mm-hmm.

469

00:19:53,759 --> 00:19:58,729

Um, otherwise though that, that aspect

of it didn't bother me all that much.

470

00:19:58,809 --> 00:19:59,774

I think it's nuts.

471

00:20:00,524 --> 00:20:01,244

I, yeah.

472

00:20:01,274 --> 00:20:05,294

I don't know my, I in my career.

473

00:20:08,024 --> 00:20:12,164

I didn't know any judge that I practiced

in front of personally very well.

474

00:20:12,194 --> 00:20:15,104

There are some that are on the bench

now that I knew socially before

475

00:20:15,464 --> 00:20:20,194

but I didn't know them very well,

so I when interpreting how a judge

476

00:20:20,194 --> 00:20:23,764

was in, in the courtroom or how

they were in any given situation.

477

00:20:24,844 --> 00:20:27,904

I made sure I didn't make assumptions

about whether that judge had ever

478

00:20:27,904 --> 00:20:30,824

been through something or could

empathize because we haven't, , there's

479

00:20:30,824 --> 00:20:33,494

no way in the world I could sit

there on the bench and empathize

480

00:20:33,494 --> 00:20:35,114

with every situation that came in.

481

00:20:35,354 --> 00:20:38,204

Like, yeah, I, you know,

number one is a male.

482

00:20:38,204 --> 00:20:41,594

There's a, there's an entire category

of things that I can't empathize

483

00:20:41,594 --> 00:20:44,714

with when it comes to parenthood,

motherhood, those kinds of things.

484

00:20:44,924 --> 00:20:49,664

There are tons of life experience

that I have not had to suffer through.

485

00:20:49,664 --> 00:20:52,274

I've been very blessed and

fortunate in my life, so.

486

00:20:52,769 --> 00:20:57,539

I tried not to think about whether or

not this judge even understands what

487

00:20:57,539 --> 00:20:58,829

that's like, because you never know.

488

00:20:58,919 --> 00:21:00,569

You don't know what

people have been through.

489

00:21:00,569 --> 00:21:02,064

So I didn't think about it that way.

490

00:21:02,064 --> 00:21:05,304

When I was before the court, I did

think about the client control.

491

00:21:05,304 --> 00:21:08,364

And have you ever advocated, have

you ever had one of these arguments

492

00:21:08,364 --> 00:21:11,184

with a client because you would

know that I can't control this.

493

00:21:11,274 --> 00:21:12,779

Christine: Well, also

they would know that too.

494

00:21:13,614 --> 00:21:17,214

You would never wanna put an attorney in

a situation where they had to sit there

495

00:21:17,214 --> 00:21:22,134

and argue with you and then go outside

and get screamed at by their client.

496

00:21:22,404 --> 00:21:23,424

You know, you just wouldn't.

497

00:21:23,514 --> 00:21:25,884

That's not conducive for resolving cases.

498

00:21:25,884 --> 00:21:28,134

That's not conducive for families first.

499

00:21:28,134 --> 00:21:30,354

That's not conducive for

best interest of the child.

500

00:21:30,354 --> 00:21:34,104

It's conducive for you put on a black

robe, you think that you're God's

501

00:21:34,104 --> 00:21:36,264

gift to man, and you have judge itis.

502

00:21:36,264 --> 00:21:37,464

I mean, I am cranky today.

503

00:21:37,464 --> 00:21:39,324

I am not gonna lie because

of some of the things.

504

00:21:39,764 --> 00:21:42,194

, Okay, listen, y'all know

I'm on social media.

505

00:21:42,194 --> 00:21:42,944

I started this on TikTok.

506

00:21:43,214 --> 00:21:46,454

Hugh literally will not even

accept my LinkedIn friend request.

507

00:21:46,454 --> 00:21:46,694

Okay.

508

00:21:46,694 --> 00:21:49,244

That is his involvement in social media.

509

00:21:49,394 --> 00:21:49,814

Hugh: Yeah.

510

00:21:50,804 --> 00:21:52,154

I, it's certainly not intentional.

511

00:21:52,994 --> 00:21:57,644

I I did accept the, , the Facebook

request to control the judgy property on

512

00:21:57,644 --> 00:21:59,624

the day that it, it was going to expire.

513

00:21:59,954 --> 00:22:00,554

No, I did say that.

514

00:22:00,554 --> 00:22:01,304

I'm catching up.

515

00:22:01,484 --> 00:22:03,399

No, I hate I won't say

I hate social media.

516

00:22:03,399 --> 00:22:04,779

I hate being involved.

517

00:22:04,779 --> 00:22:05,229

I just.

518

00:22:05,624 --> 00:22:08,564

I don't know the personal

involvement in my personal life,

519

00:22:08,564 --> 00:22:09,974

it's not for me as a business.

520

00:22:10,304 --> 00:22:11,504

Yeah, perfectly fine.

521

00:22:11,594 --> 00:22:13,544

Christine: Well, that's what

makes us like a good duo.

522

00:22:13,544 --> 00:22:16,454

But I, the reason I get so

frustrated is because like,

523

00:22:16,454 --> 00:22:17,594

I'll be like, oh my goodness.

524

00:22:17,594 --> 00:22:20,699

Like I saw something positive

and then this morning I'll have.

525

00:22:21,219 --> 00:22:22,659

47 messages.

526

00:22:22,659 --> 00:22:24,099

That's like, you're

not gonna believe this.

527

00:22:24,099 --> 00:22:25,089

You're not gonna believe this.

528

00:22:25,089 --> 00:22:25,149

Yeah.

529

00:22:25,179 --> 00:22:29,199

Or there was actually a terrible case

out of I can't even think of where it's

530

00:22:29,199 --> 00:22:34,269

out of, but Elizabeth Weinstein, she

was a major in the movement talking

531

00:22:34,269 --> 00:22:35,499

about the problems in family court.

532

00:22:35,499 --> 00:22:39,469

And she passed away due to,

suspicious circumstances at 53.

533

00:22:39,469 --> 00:22:42,349

And there's actually an epidemic

of, , mothers committing

534

00:22:42,349 --> 00:22:43,429

suicide, which you may not know.

535

00:22:43,429 --> 00:22:46,319

You haven't been in the world long

enough to know that's going on.

536

00:22:46,399 --> 00:22:50,779

. But you just, it is so frustrating

to think that these people that

537

00:22:50,779 --> 00:22:53,989

have all of this control don't

even have the basic common sense

538

00:22:53,989 --> 00:22:58,219

to understand that exacerbating any

situation doesn't make it better.

539

00:22:58,519 --> 00:22:58,759

Hugh: Yeah.

540

00:22:58,759 --> 00:23:04,349

I, you know, there was a judge I practiced

in front of proudly 15, 16 years ago,

541

00:23:04,679 --> 00:23:09,524

and he would call me up to the bench.

542

00:23:10,494 --> 00:23:13,944

At the end of a hearing sometimes

and acting like he was angry, Mr.

543

00:23:13,944 --> 00:23:15,654

Barrow, I need to see you

at the bench right now.

544

00:23:15,654 --> 00:23:15,744

Mm-hmm.

545

00:23:15,984 --> 00:23:19,614

And I would get up there and he would ask

me about something completely unrelated

546

00:23:19,614 --> 00:23:21,054

to the case and just be joking around.

547

00:23:21,054 --> 00:23:22,764

I'd be like, oh, your client's

gonna think you're in trouble.

548

00:23:23,094 --> 00:23:29,034

And like it, to his extent, it was just,

you know, I would just like, ah ha, ha ha.

549

00:23:29,034 --> 00:23:29,544

That's funny.

550

00:23:29,544 --> 00:23:32,064

I appreciate a prank

as well as anyone else.

551

00:23:33,729 --> 00:23:38,319

You've just now made my client think,

right, that I've done something wrong.

552

00:23:38,349 --> 00:23:43,759

You're under, you're undermining me,

but you're undermining the client's

553

00:23:43,819 --> 00:23:48,079

understanding and faith in the court

system because if, just assuming

554

00:23:48,619 --> 00:23:52,099

the hearing that we just walked out

of was perfunctory, or it was just

555

00:23:52,099 --> 00:23:53,809

executed perfectly, it wasn't Yeah.

556

00:23:54,079 --> 00:23:56,329

You know, that we walked through

and did everything that I said

557

00:23:56,329 --> 00:23:59,179

was correct, and then you're gonna

call me up there in an angry way.

558

00:23:59,539 --> 00:24:03,349

Just to sort of mess with me because

you're ribbing me a little bit

559

00:24:03,409 --> 00:24:07,039

and you know, to a certain extent,

you know, like that's just kind of

560

00:24:07,039 --> 00:24:08,689

what colleagues do to each other.

561

00:24:09,019 --> 00:24:10,429

Is it to be funny?

562

00:24:10,429 --> 00:24:12,199

But outside of the courtroom right?

563

00:24:12,679 --> 00:24:16,449

Like, this same person played a

hilarious prank that I won't say at a,

564

00:24:16,449 --> 00:24:18,459

at a friend's, at a friend's wedding.

565

00:24:18,459 --> 00:24:21,759

And I just thought it was,

he, he, the guy was hilarious.

566

00:24:21,999 --> 00:24:25,809

Personally, but doing it in court,

right, it caused problems with

567

00:24:25,809 --> 00:24:26,950

my clients and it's just like.

568

00:24:27,654 --> 00:24:32,034

These people, you know, the attorneys

can walk away from it and, and

569

00:24:32,034 --> 00:24:34,014

leave the courtroom and you know it.

570

00:24:35,004 --> 00:24:37,824

It's one of those things that

everyone always finds funny or

571

00:24:37,974 --> 00:24:40,434

strange that attorneys could fight.

572

00:24:40,439 --> 00:24:40,729

Mm-hmm.

573

00:24:40,809 --> 00:24:43,164

Like they hate each other

in court and just fight so

574

00:24:43,164 --> 00:24:44,364

hard and then go get a drink.

575

00:24:44,424 --> 00:24:46,794

Just immediately walk outta court

and be like, Hey, good job in there.

576

00:24:46,794 --> 00:24:46,884

Mm-hmm.

577

00:24:47,124 --> 00:24:49,824

You wanna go grab a beer or whatever,

and we can talk about maybe, you know,

578

00:24:49,824 --> 00:24:52,164

the next, the things that we can do

to move this forward or whatever,

579

00:24:52,164 --> 00:24:53,664

and they can just put it aside.

580

00:24:54,084 --> 00:24:54,894

Same thing with judges.

581

00:24:54,894 --> 00:24:56,694

Judges and attorneys that know each other.

582

00:24:56,694 --> 00:24:59,124

You know, they do the same thing, but.

583

00:24:59,724 --> 00:25:01,494

There's just a time and a place.

584

00:25:01,524 --> 00:25:02,784

There's a time and a place.

585

00:25:03,274 --> 00:25:08,044

, The clients, once they, anything

happens in a courtroom where they

586

00:25:08,044 --> 00:25:10,869

don't think the process is working

correctly the way that it should.

587

00:25:12,034 --> 00:25:13,654

It affects everything else in the case.

588

00:25:13,714 --> 00:25:16,414

Christine: Well, imagine if you're at

the doctor and you're just talking to

589

00:25:16,414 --> 00:25:19,684

like a nurse practitioner, you're talking

to the doctor, and then you got another

590

00:25:19,684 --> 00:25:23,284

doctor that opens the door and is like,

I need to see you right this second.

591

00:25:23,584 --> 00:25:26,314

I mean, you would be in the doctor's

office, like, is something wrong with me?

592

00:25:26,374 --> 00:25:29,494

Hugh: And they're like, oh, you,

you have a a $3 99 cent bill.

593

00:25:29,494 --> 00:25:30,004

That's outstanding.

594

00:25:30,004 --> 00:25:31,294

Can you maybe pay that?

595

00:25:31,414 --> 00:25:31,624

Christine: Yeah.

596

00:25:31,624 --> 00:25:32,779

Or maybe it's just like,

which is just like, why

597

00:25:32,779 --> 00:25:33,604

Hugh: didn't you call me that way?

598

00:25:33,634 --> 00:25:34,024

Yeah.

599

00:25:34,024 --> 00:25:34,745

Christine: Or it's like maybe the.

600

00:25:35,244 --> 00:25:37,609

The, the head doctor

was just like, ha ha ha.

601

00:25:37,609 --> 00:25:39,439

I just wanted to play a trick

on you while you were sitting

602

00:25:39,439 --> 00:25:40,789

there caring for a patient.

603

00:25:41,059 --> 00:25:42,469

It's like you're a jackass.

604

00:25:42,469 --> 00:25:43,819

Like there's just,

605

00:25:44,059 --> 00:25:44,239

Hugh: yeah.

606

00:25:44,244 --> 00:25:45,619

I, I appreciate a good jackass.

607

00:25:45,619 --> 00:25:49,279

I'm, I definitely, I am a jackass,

not immune to being a jackass,

608

00:25:50,029 --> 00:25:53,539

but it would just cause so many

problems and it would just, problems

609

00:25:53,539 --> 00:25:55,309

the attorneys have to figure out

610

00:25:55,969 --> 00:25:57,439

Christine: one, , the stress on attorneys.

611

00:25:57,439 --> 00:26:00,079

I mean, and that's the other

message to attorneys too, like.

612

00:26:00,454 --> 00:26:03,364

I am, and , some of my followers

will get upset on this, but generally

613

00:26:03,364 --> 00:26:04,924

speaking I'm on attorney sides.

614

00:26:04,924 --> 00:26:08,884

There's obviously, oh, me too,

obviously nefarious attorneys.

615

00:26:08,914 --> 00:26:11,914

And I'd say, like we talked about

before, I'd say probably 20% of

616

00:26:11,914 --> 00:26:16,264

us got some things that, you know,

maybe some problems or not problems.

617

00:26:16,264 --> 00:26:17,104

We all got problems.

618

00:26:17,104 --> 00:26:20,854

But maybe lean on the side of like

not being on the up and up, just

619

00:26:20,854 --> 00:26:24,124

like probably law enforcement or

any sort of government agency.

620

00:26:24,124 --> 00:26:24,454

Right.

621

00:26:24,739 --> 00:26:27,169

Hugh: Yeah, I, I would have no

idea the percentage, but certainly

622

00:26:27,169 --> 00:26:28,579

every profession has, yeah.

623

00:26:28,579 --> 00:26:32,389

I'm making it up and I think the higher

the stress level in the profession mm-hmm.

624

00:26:32,659 --> 00:26:32,809

The.

625

00:26:33,379 --> 00:26:35,029

Probably the more prevalent it is.

626

00:26:35,029 --> 00:26:37,969

Again, that's an uneducated

guess, but from what I've seen,

627

00:26:38,059 --> 00:26:38,389

Christine: yeah.

628

00:26:38,439 --> 00:26:42,849

But like lawyers are so, like we talk,

there's a massive epidemic of Kentucky

629

00:26:42,849 --> 00:26:48,459

attorneys committing suicide and the

stress component of representing clients.

630

00:26:48,459 --> 00:26:51,639

I mean, seriously, there were times

during my career that were very

631

00:26:51,639 --> 00:26:53,379

dark, especially towards the end.

632

00:26:53,379 --> 00:26:57,249

And I'm sure you know, you've talked

about yours as well, like, so attorneys,

633

00:26:57,299 --> 00:26:59,249

. You shouldn't be spoken to like that.

634

00:26:59,279 --> 00:26:59,879

Do you know what I mean?

635

00:26:59,879 --> 00:27:02,489

There's never a scenario in which

you should be spoken to like that.

636

00:27:02,489 --> 00:27:05,459

There's never a scenario in which

you shouldn't be respected when

637

00:27:05,459 --> 00:27:07,169

you're doing your job adequately.

638

00:27:07,429 --> 00:27:07,939

Period.

639

00:27:07,939 --> 00:27:08,989

End of story.

640

00:27:08,989 --> 00:27:11,689

DM me, send me info time's up.

641

00:27:11,689 --> 00:27:14,959

Y'all are all like, I, you know, I got

20, 30 of y'all doing it right now.

642

00:27:14,959 --> 00:27:16,399

I'd like to get it up to a hundred.

643

00:27:16,519 --> 00:27:18,734

Hugh: Well, and I also

think it's important to.

644

00:27:19,589 --> 00:27:22,589

Remind people that it's all confidential.

645

00:27:22,709 --> 00:27:23,221

Christine: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah,

646

00:27:23,514 --> 00:27:23,804

Hugh: yeah.

647

00:27:23,809 --> 00:27:26,879

And even if it's just, yeah, I

don't wanna tell you what happened.

648

00:27:26,879 --> 00:27:27,959

I don't wanna get involved.

649

00:27:27,959 --> 00:27:30,809

I wanna send you the case number

that maybe you guys just wanna

650

00:27:30,809 --> 00:27:33,204

look at, and you'll see something

that you might wanna talk about.

651

00:27:33,929 --> 00:27:36,884

Fine with that, but always best

way to do it too, very confidential

652

00:27:36,884 --> 00:27:39,749

Christine: way do is in motion

hour send me somebody else's case.

653

00:27:40,139 --> 00:27:41,519

Y'all are doing that anyway.

654

00:27:41,519 --> 00:27:45,869

Also, I have a little algorithm for how

I decide to look up cases that's random

655

00:27:45,869 --> 00:27:47,699

before looking at the attorney's name.

656

00:27:47,699 --> 00:27:50,609

So I very well could draw your case

and you didn't even send it to me.

657

00:27:50,669 --> 00:27:52,559

And that's a message too

for the judge out there.

658

00:27:52,589 --> 00:27:52,739

That's

659

00:27:53,104 --> 00:27:53,879

Hugh: happened a couple times.

660

00:27:53,939 --> 00:27:54,359

Oh yeah.

661

00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:55,379

We've talked about cases.

662

00:27:55,379 --> 00:27:58,739

The attorneys have said,

who have you been talking?

663

00:27:58,739 --> 00:28:00,719

You know, they've asked who

have you talk to about the case?

664

00:28:00,719 --> 00:28:01,079

Nope.

665

00:28:01,169 --> 00:28:01,229

We.

666

00:28:01,919 --> 00:28:05,669

We found it, or somebody completely

unrelated to the case said, Hey,

667

00:28:05,674 --> 00:28:06,809

hey, you might wanna check this out.

668

00:28:06,809 --> 00:28:09,179

You'll never believe what happened at

motion hour or something like that.

669

00:28:09,179 --> 00:28:09,389

Yep.

670

00:28:09,419 --> 00:28:12,019

Christine: And also, huge shout

out to all the pro se followers.

671

00:28:12,019 --> 00:28:14,869

I got a lot of court watchers in

Louisville, , family court right now

672

00:28:15,109 --> 00:28:19,269

that are actually tipping me off to

things that are happening on zoom.

673

00:28:19,599 --> 00:28:22,359

Hugh: It's a conversation that

I think clients need to know

674

00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:24,099

the attorneys are having Yes.

675

00:28:24,099 --> 00:28:28,419

That they actually give a And this is

not just taking their money, billing

676

00:28:28,419 --> 00:28:33,159

the hour and then just being part of

a system that is doing these things.

677

00:28:33,164 --> 00:28:33,354

Yeah.

678

00:28:33,354 --> 00:28:33,994

Christine: Most of us care.

679

00:28:34,184 --> 00:28:34,474

Hugh: Yeah.

680

00:28:34,474 --> 00:28:38,169

Most of us care a lot and

most of us care so much

681

00:28:38,219 --> 00:28:40,204

Christine: that it physically

causes us families.

682

00:28:40,204 --> 00:28:40,404

It

683

00:28:40,404 --> 00:28:43,019

Hugh: causes problems, it causes

people to end their careers.

684

00:28:43,019 --> 00:28:45,359

It causes, unfortunately

people, , to end their lives.

685

00:28:45,364 --> 00:28:45,494

Mm-hmm.

686

00:28:45,874 --> 00:28:48,214

And you, you talked about the

attorneys committing suicide.

687

00:28:48,214 --> 00:28:50,494

I think we are now talking about it more.

688

00:28:50,494 --> 00:28:53,644

I don't, from my experience,

that hasn't changed.

689

00:28:53,914 --> 00:28:55,504

That was, that's been going on.

690

00:28:55,564 --> 00:28:59,844

I mean, I've What do you mean that

I've just counting, I'm thinking

691

00:28:59,844 --> 00:29:03,894

of the people that I knew that took

their own lives before I had kids.

692

00:29:03,894 --> 00:29:04,284

That's insane.

693

00:29:04,284 --> 00:29:06,354

And my kids are close

to going off to college.

694

00:29:06,444 --> 00:29:06,624

Yeah.

695

00:29:06,654 --> 00:29:08,874

So a long time ago this was happening.

696

00:29:08,874 --> 00:29:10,524

It was hitting close to home even then.

697

00:29:10,884 --> 00:29:17,214

I think the very healthy mental

health conversation that this country

698

00:29:17,304 --> 00:29:21,834

has had and people like generally

are having over the last decade is

699

00:29:21,834 --> 00:29:23,124

bringing a lot more of it to light.

700

00:29:23,124 --> 00:29:23,334

Yeah.

701

00:29:23,384 --> 00:29:26,684

, Christine: I would say like the

lowest of the lows in my practice

702

00:29:26,684 --> 00:29:29,448

actually was a hearing after

in front of Censored Censored.

703

00:29:29,498 --> 00:29:31,268

, It was right, it was during the pandemic.

704

00:29:31,268 --> 00:29:32,738

It was after my car accident.

705

00:29:32,738 --> 00:29:34,628

Did you know that her sister

had a traumatic brain injury?

706

00:29:35,723 --> 00:29:35,943

No.

707

00:29:36,143 --> 00:29:37,433

Christine: And she put

this on social media.

708

00:29:37,493 --> 00:29:40,553

She was so nice, like, oh my

gosh, Christine, are you okay?

709

00:29:40,553 --> 00:29:44,123

I mean, messaging me all the time,

liking every status, dah, dah, dah, dah.

710

00:29:44,183 --> 00:29:45,593

And I had a hearing in front of her.

711

00:29:45,593 --> 00:29:47,363

I remember I was so excited to

get back into the courtroom.

712

00:29:47,363 --> 00:29:49,033

I had pink shoes on that were wicked cute.

713

00:29:49,033 --> 00:29:50,953

And I used to be known for

my cute shoes in court.

714

00:29:51,143 --> 00:29:54,953

I'm in leggings right now, but I went

to this hearing in her in Rainbow Socks.

715

00:29:54,983 --> 00:29:55,554

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

716

00:29:55,628 --> 00:29:56,588

Rainbow sucks.

717

00:29:56,888 --> 00:30:00,848

And she was so horrific

to me and my client.

718

00:30:00,848 --> 00:30:03,818

I had some audio visual things that

I didn't realize from the fluorescent

719

00:30:03,818 --> 00:30:06,988

lights that were had been under

control, but the courthouse was so loud.

720

00:30:07,298 --> 00:30:10,748

Actually after the hearing,

I messaged the then chief.

721

00:30:11,073 --> 00:30:14,223

Tara Haggerty said, please, can I

come get acclimated to the courthouse?

722

00:30:14,223 --> 00:30:15,963

And she was like, I'll

open it up for you anytime.

723

00:30:15,963 --> 00:30:17,103

I'll do anything that you need.

724

00:30:17,133 --> 00:30:20,823

She was so kind and thoughtful, but

Censored was so horrific to my client.

725

00:30:21,183 --> 00:30:22,293

She yelled at her.

726

00:30:22,343 --> 00:30:22,883

. She could tell.

727

00:30:22,883 --> 00:30:25,133

We went up to the front and

I was like, judge my head.

728

00:30:25,133 --> 00:30:26,663

I'm a little discombobulated.

729

00:30:26,933 --> 00:30:28,313

She was so evil.

730

00:30:28,313 --> 00:30:31,433

That was like, I went home that day and I

was like, my life will never be the same.

731

00:30:31,433 --> 00:30:33,323

It was the lowest of the low.

732

00:30:33,423 --> 00:30:37,923

And I know how many people, how many other

attorneys that she did the same thing

733

00:30:37,923 --> 00:30:39,733

to, , and I should have said this sooner.

734

00:30:39,733 --> 00:30:42,673

I don't, I didn't even tell my significant

other at the time what a low that was.

735

00:30:42,673 --> 00:30:44,383

I mean, it was a really dark time.

736

00:30:44,383 --> 00:30:47,593

And I think hearing for other people

that have been in front of her,

737

00:30:47,593 --> 00:30:48,823

I don't think I'm alone in that.

738

00:30:49,093 --> 00:30:50,638

Hugh: Oh, there's no way

you're alone in that.

739

00:30:50,638 --> 00:30:50,838

Yeah.

740

00:30:51,163 --> 00:30:55,573

I think I've, I've talked to attorneys who

were new to practicing in Louisville who

741

00:30:55,573 --> 00:30:58,213

had their first hearing in her division.

742

00:30:58,843 --> 00:31:01,333

And we're just, didn't know what to say.

743

00:31:01,333 --> 00:31:04,543

Just walked out thinking, holy

shit, this is like, what in

744

00:31:04,543 --> 00:31:06,223

the world is going on here?

745

00:31:06,283 --> 00:31:07,183

Christine: And she could control it.

746

00:31:07,183 --> 00:31:09,403

'cause she was nice as

a peanut butter pie.

747

00:31:09,463 --> 00:31:10,843

Hugh: Well, you could control it too.

748

00:31:10,943 --> 00:31:12,833

I had a specific strategy for her court.

749

00:31:13,343 --> 00:31:19,223

I would set up some situation if the

other side was dishonest, which oftentimes

750

00:31:19,223 --> 00:31:23,603

were against people that have lied at

some, as in some aspect of their case.

751

00:31:24,353 --> 00:31:25,043

And I would.

752

00:31:25,958 --> 00:31:30,398

Set them up, and it may not be dispositive

of any major issue in their case.

753

00:31:30,398 --> 00:31:30,488

Mm-hmm.

754

00:31:30,728 --> 00:31:34,658

But I would set them up to where

I could catch them in a clear lie.

755

00:31:34,658 --> 00:31:37,748

I'd get them to say something,

I'd get them to triple down on it.

756

00:31:37,748 --> 00:31:40,388

I ask it five different ways,

so they can't say they didn't

757

00:31:40,388 --> 00:31:41,168

understand the question.

758

00:31:41,408 --> 00:31:44,438

Then I would just show that

they lied under oath and remind

759

00:31:44,438 --> 00:31:45,338

them that they're under oath.

760

00:31:45,338 --> 00:31:50,228

And she would get so mad that sometimes I

wouldn't speak again for minutes, because

761

00:31:50,228 --> 00:31:54,428

she would just tear into them and start

asking questions and would get so upset.

762

00:31:55,088 --> 00:31:58,298

That if you got to go first and that

set the tone for the hearing, it didn't

763

00:31:58,298 --> 00:32:00,548

matter what your client did at that point.

764

00:32:00,548 --> 00:32:04,358

Christine: Yeah, I just, I gotta segue

onto something else 'cause I'm gonna

765

00:32:04,358 --> 00:32:05,623

say, so something I shouldn't say.

766

00:32:05,623 --> 00:32:05,743

I,

767

00:32:06,518 --> 00:32:09,788

Hugh: you know, the funny thing was I

got used to her on in district court,

768

00:32:09,788 --> 00:32:13,118

and I wasn't in district court much, but

I practiced with some people and they

769

00:32:13,118 --> 00:32:15,788

would cover for me, I'd cover for them,

I'd go through and do the district court

770

00:32:15,788 --> 00:32:17,528

docket in the morning and she was just.

771

00:32:18,678 --> 00:32:22,488

One of the most pleasant people

that I ever went in front of

772

00:32:22,488 --> 00:32:23,418

on the district court docket.

773

00:32:23,628 --> 00:32:27,528

She would just as, she just handled things

efficiently, she went straight through.

774

00:32:27,738 --> 00:32:30,618

If you came through and you were

efficient and said the right

775

00:32:30,618 --> 00:32:33,708

things and you were very polite,

oh my gosh, you just got reward.

776

00:32:33,758 --> 00:32:39,158

Which was a shock to me because as a GAL,

she was the toughest GAL I'd ever seen.

777

00:32:39,158 --> 00:32:42,278

And I, I enjoyed working with

her because she worked her cases,

778

00:32:42,278 --> 00:32:43,748

she knew everything about them.

779

00:32:43,988 --> 00:32:48,698

She didn't just, you know, pretend

to have like a five minute interview

780

00:32:48,698 --> 00:32:51,458

with someone and then, you know,

try to tell a judge what to do.

781

00:32:51,458 --> 00:32:56,858

And this was back in the day when the gals

were FOCs and gals roll all into once you

782

00:32:57,338 --> 00:32:57,968

this, which means they wrote a report.

783

00:32:57,968 --> 00:32:59,648

Yeah, they wrote a report

and advised the court.

784

00:33:00,683 --> 00:33:05,663

She was not always on my side,

but you knew that she had done

785

00:33:05,663 --> 00:33:08,123

so much work on every one of

those cases, but she was tough.

786

00:33:08,123 --> 00:33:11,213

She made everybody cry,

men, women, everybody.

787

00:33:11,333 --> 00:33:13,703

So when I saw her on district court,

the district court bench, and she

788

00:33:13,703 --> 00:33:14,888

was so polite, I was just like.

789

00:33:15,878 --> 00:33:18,038

This must be more her

speed She seems very happy.

790

00:33:18,038 --> 00:33:21,008

So I, I just thought maybe it'd

be that way in family court and

791

00:33:21,008 --> 00:33:22,298

very quickly it was just like,

792

00:33:23,228 --> 00:33:23,618

Christine: oh my gosh.

793

00:33:23,918 --> 00:33:27,818

I mean the lives and that she ruined

or that she's affected negatively.

794

00:33:28,068 --> 00:33:30,078

I have tens of thousands probably.

795

00:33:30,438 --> 00:33:31,428

Hugh: I don't know about that.

796

00:33:31,428 --> 00:33:32,028

I know that

797

00:33:32,078 --> 00:33:32,768

, Christine: you wanna make a bet.

798

00:33:32,773 --> 00:33:37,898

Hugh: I've won, I've won in front of her

at hearings and I've had clients walk out.

799

00:33:38,423 --> 00:33:40,988

Shaking Uhhuh and just breakdown crying.

800

00:33:40,988 --> 00:33:41,348

Mm-hmm.

801

00:33:41,428 --> 00:33:43,253

And when they got it together

again, they said they never

802

00:33:43,253 --> 00:33:44,273

wanted to go in there again.

803

00:33:44,273 --> 00:33:45,173

And we had just won.

804

00:33:45,263 --> 00:33:45,353

Christine: Mm-hmm.

805

00:33:45,953 --> 00:33:47,333

Hugh: Like across the board won?

806

00:33:47,363 --> 00:33:49,793

No, and they would, we'd never go

in front of her again because they

807

00:33:49,793 --> 00:33:51,053

were so shaken from the experience.

808

00:33:51,053 --> 00:33:51,113

Her

809

00:33:51,113 --> 00:33:53,033

Christine: behavior was, there's

no question it was abusive.

810

00:33:53,033 --> 00:33:54,563

I don't even think we

have to say allegedly.

811

00:33:54,563 --> 00:33:58,373

I mean, she was verbally abusive to

most people at most times in court.

812

00:33:59,213 --> 00:34:05,453

So we got a question, and the question is,

who do you recommend that is not afraid

813

00:34:05,453 --> 00:34:09,112

to stand up to these FOCs gals and judges?

814

00:34:11,513 --> 00:34:11,842

Hugh: Wow.

815

00:34:12,413 --> 00:34:16,853

I think, I think it's important for us

to state that we aren't in the business

816

00:34:16,853 --> 00:34:19,973

of recommending or promoting any.

817

00:34:20,858 --> 00:34:22,717

Business or attorney?

818

00:34:22,878 --> 00:34:25,668

I think we can talk generally

about what to look for.

819

00:34:26,643 --> 00:34:30,842

From an attorney, I definitely

have a strong personal opinion on

820

00:34:30,873 --> 00:34:34,473

who isn't afraid , and who would

be great in those circumstances.

821

00:34:34,473 --> 00:34:38,297

But , in this capacity for the

Judgmental podcast and for judgy, , I'm

822

00:34:38,297 --> 00:34:41,148

not endorsing people and we're not

endorsing businesses at the moment.

823

00:34:41,148 --> 00:34:42,047

I, I think.

824

00:34:42,288 --> 00:34:44,297

Christine: Yeah, it's also a

dangerous, like a slippery slope.

825

00:34:44,297 --> 00:34:44,358

Yeah.

826

00:34:44,358 --> 00:34:47,388

Because what if, you know, I've been

out of the practice for a minute.

827

00:34:47,388 --> 00:34:49,547

What if it's just not a

good fit with that person?

828

00:34:49,547 --> 00:34:54,797

Like I'm uncomfortable just like saying

names and being like, Hey, I endorse you,

829

00:34:54,797 --> 00:34:56,808

but attorneys, this is the note for you.

830

00:34:57,018 --> 00:34:59,148

They're asking me who they should hire.

831

00:34:59,238 --> 00:34:59,658

Okay.

832

00:34:59,778 --> 00:35:00,528

Hugh: No, that's absolutely right.

833

00:35:00,528 --> 00:35:03,468

And people are looking for attorneys

uhhuh that actually do things.

834

00:35:03,468 --> 00:35:05,663

So from, , advising.

835

00:35:06,278 --> 00:35:09,368

Clients going to see an

attorney simply ask the fir.

836

00:35:09,368 --> 00:35:14,348

The most important thing I think when

selecting an attorney is that there's

837

00:35:14,348 --> 00:35:17,918

just a, and I won't say chemistry, you

don't have to like each other at all.

838

00:35:17,918 --> 00:35:17,978

No.

839

00:35:17,978 --> 00:35:19,388

In fact, a lot of times.

840

00:35:20,183 --> 00:35:23,423

You need someone that is sort

of, will hold a mirror up and it

841

00:35:23,423 --> 00:35:24,653

can be uncomfortable sometimes.

842

00:35:24,653 --> 00:35:28,463

Sometimes you need a little bit

of a back and forth in that to,

843

00:35:28,493 --> 00:35:30,263

to get the advice that you need.

844

00:35:30,268 --> 00:35:30,398

Mm-hmm.

845

00:35:30,478 --> 00:35:31,463

And to see the bigger picture.

846

00:35:31,913 --> 00:35:37,133

But the communication and understanding,

, that there has to be trust and

847

00:35:37,133 --> 00:35:38,213

there has to be communication.

848

00:35:38,513 --> 00:35:43,073

You have to trust that your attorney, when

they tell you this is the strategy that

849

00:35:43,073 --> 00:35:47,033

they are thinking in your best interest

and not doing what's expedient for them.

850

00:35:47,143 --> 00:35:51,463

You have to know that, and you will,

you tend to figure that out pretty

851

00:35:51,463 --> 00:35:54,283

quickly , when you're speaking with

an attorney, it needs to be a good

852

00:35:54,283 --> 00:35:58,783

fit, even if they're very different

from you, a different walk of life.

853

00:35:58,843 --> 00:35:59,953

You need to have that trust.

854

00:36:00,163 --> 00:36:04,513

You need to have similar communication

styles because , I, from my

855

00:36:04,513 --> 00:36:06,773

experience in the career most.

856

00:36:07,583 --> 00:36:10,013

Complaints with attorneys are

dealing with communication

857

00:36:10,103 --> 00:36:10,403

Christine: a hundred

858

00:36:10,403 --> 00:36:10,733

Hugh: percent.

859

00:36:10,803 --> 00:36:12,913

Christine: The most important

thing I would say is you wanna

860

00:36:12,913 --> 00:36:15,403

have an attorney that will tell

you what you don't wanna hear.

861

00:36:15,403 --> 00:36:15,493

Yeah.

862

00:36:15,853 --> 00:36:18,073

You have to have an attorney

that said will tell you something

863

00:36:18,073 --> 00:36:18,853

that you don't wanna hear.

864

00:36:18,853 --> 00:36:21,463

If your attorney says

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

865

00:36:21,463 --> 00:36:23,143

Why don't you just write

a six-figure blank check.

866

00:36:23,803 --> 00:36:24,493

Hugh: No, that's true.

867

00:36:24,553 --> 00:36:25,843

I, I think that's exactly right.

868

00:36:25,913 --> 00:36:30,203

But when you're interviewing attorneys,

ask them, ask them how they've stood

869

00:36:30,203 --> 00:36:32,003

up to, or if they've dealt with.

870

00:36:32,738 --> 00:36:36,758

An FOC or a GAL who has not done

their job, and if they've had to

871

00:36:36,758 --> 00:36:40,958

stand up to 'em, number one, if the

attorney tells you that they've never

872

00:36:40,958 --> 00:36:44,558

encountered that situation before,

then they've either never practiced

873

00:36:44,558 --> 00:36:47,708

in, actually practiced in family law,

or they're not telling you the truth.

874

00:36:48,158 --> 00:36:49,028

Number two.

875

00:36:50,318 --> 00:36:51,998

Not just asking them

how they've handled it.

876

00:36:51,998 --> 00:36:55,418

Ask for examples, because attorneys will

be able to say, look, I ran into this.

877

00:36:55,418 --> 00:36:56,498

Here's what I had to do.

878

00:36:56,528 --> 00:36:56,618

Mm-hmm.

879

00:36:56,858 --> 00:37:03,848

If they've taken active steps to remedy

the situation, or to maybe get the person

880

00:37:03,848 --> 00:37:09,038

removed or to do some extra discovery

to make sure that the facts of the case

881

00:37:09,038 --> 00:37:13,513

came out, even if the court appointed

person was not looking for them.

882

00:37:13,678 --> 00:37:16,768

Then you're probably dealing with

someone who knows how to handle

883

00:37:16,768 --> 00:37:18,118

it , and will protect your rights.

884

00:37:18,358 --> 00:37:20,668

Christine: Yeah, and I would say when

you're going to, and I'm working on

885

00:37:20,668 --> 00:37:23,308

putting something together like a

little template for what you should

886

00:37:23,308 --> 00:37:27,838

take to your attorney, but you need

to write down all your questions.

887

00:37:28,138 --> 00:37:31,348

Lawyers, it's a power imbalance

between a lawyer and a client,

888

00:37:31,378 --> 00:37:35,968

Avi, and we have a really good

ability to control the conversation.

889

00:37:36,503 --> 00:37:38,033

Compared to everyone else, I would say.

890

00:37:38,033 --> 00:37:38,393

Right?

891

00:37:38,603 --> 00:37:38,873

Hugh: Yeah.

892

00:37:38,903 --> 00:37:40,793

I mean, that's what we're

paid to do in court.

893

00:37:40,823 --> 00:37:41,108

Yeah, yeah.

894

00:37:41,108 --> 00:37:41,228

Yeah.

895

00:37:41,543 --> 00:37:42,173

And so

896

00:37:42,173 --> 00:37:46,073

Christine: you, we can get you off topic

even if we don't necessarily mean to Yeah.

897

00:37:46,103 --> 00:37:49,163

Like it's like you'll leave and you'll

be like, I had seven questions I didn't

898

00:37:49,163 --> 00:37:51,383

ask or I didn't see this scenario.

899

00:37:51,633 --> 00:37:53,343

I would really like

900

00:37:53,553 --> 00:37:54,213

Hugh: be direct.

901

00:37:54,273 --> 00:37:54,663

Christine: Yeah.

902

00:37:54,723 --> 00:37:55,773

And shop around.

903

00:37:55,833 --> 00:37:59,703

I mean, you're not gonna go spend

$10,000 without driving, you

904

00:37:59,703 --> 00:38:01,083

know, test driving a couple cars.

905

00:38:01,083 --> 00:38:02,763

Not that a car's 10,000,

but I mean down payment.

906

00:38:02,763 --> 00:38:02,913

But if

907

00:38:02,913 --> 00:38:04,413

Hugh: you find one that's

obviously a good fit.

908

00:38:05,058 --> 00:38:07,338

You know, and you, you wanna move forward.

909

00:38:07,338 --> 00:38:10,398

I mean, you generally should

know it when it's correct.

910

00:38:10,398 --> 00:38:14,958

It's strange to say it's like a

love, but I can feel I got, I like

911

00:38:14,958 --> 00:38:19,658

to say I got very good with when

I'm consulted with clients, you just

912

00:38:19,988 --> 00:38:21,368

knew that Oh yeah, that's gonna work.

913

00:38:21,458 --> 00:38:21,548

Yep.

914

00:38:21,548 --> 00:38:23,048

And that person will be hiring me.

915

00:38:23,048 --> 00:38:23,138

Mm-hmm.

916

00:38:23,138 --> 00:38:25,628

The other piece of advice is

just be very direct attorneys.

917

00:38:25,628 --> 00:38:26,408

Appreciate it.

918

00:38:26,523 --> 00:38:26,823

We do.

919

00:38:26,923 --> 00:38:29,228

It feels intimidating going

and speaking with an attorney.

920

00:38:29,228 --> 00:38:29,978

I understand.

921

00:38:30,218 --> 00:38:31,268

Or any professional.

922

00:38:31,268 --> 00:38:34,538

Like if I go, there's so many

people that I used to be.

923

00:38:35,078 --> 00:38:38,258

Intimidated to go speak with, 'cause it's

someone that has expertise that's outside

924

00:38:38,258 --> 00:38:39,938

of my wheelhouse and they're the expert.

925

00:38:39,968 --> 00:38:40,058

Mm-hmm.

926

00:38:40,778 --> 00:38:41,558

But just be direct.

927

00:38:41,618 --> 00:38:42,878

The attorneys appreciate it.

928

00:38:42,938 --> 00:38:43,088

Yep.

929

00:38:43,088 --> 00:38:48,008

I loved when people would come in

and grill me and ask me questions.

930

00:38:48,368 --> 00:38:51,218

It showed, number one, they were thinking

they knew what they were looking for.

931

00:38:51,503 --> 00:38:53,148

They knew what was important to them and

932

00:38:53,188 --> 00:38:54,228

Christine: I knew what

was important to them.

933

00:38:54,323 --> 00:38:54,473

Yeah.

934

00:38:54,473 --> 00:38:54,563

And

935

00:38:54,563 --> 00:38:55,193

Hugh: I could answer it.

936

00:38:55,193 --> 00:38:55,253

Yeah.

937

00:38:55,253 --> 00:38:57,623

And I could tell them if, if they

were off if they were asking me

938

00:38:57,623 --> 00:38:59,693

something that was irrelevant,

I would say I, I'll answer that.

939

00:38:59,693 --> 00:39:01,203

But I think you're asking

the wrong questions.

940

00:39:01,233 --> 00:39:01,383

Yep.

941

00:39:01,593 --> 00:39:04,673

But I those conversations

were so refreshing.

942

00:39:05,333 --> 00:39:08,903

It, it just extremely di extremely direct.

943

00:39:08,908 --> 00:39:08,968

Yep.

944

00:39:08,993 --> 00:39:09,113

Yep.

945

00:39:09,113 --> 00:39:11,843

If you come in and they have

a baby face, ask 'em how many

946

00:39:11,843 --> 00:39:12,743

times they've been to court.

947

00:39:12,923 --> 00:39:13,103

Yeah.

948

00:39:13,133 --> 00:39:14,153

Ask those things.

949

00:39:14,153 --> 00:39:19,013

Attorneys are, you know,

we are, we're big kids.

950

00:39:19,643 --> 00:39:19,915

We Yeah, yeah.

951

00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:20,378

We can, we we can handle it.

952

00:39:20,383 --> 00:39:20,663

Handle it.

953

00:39:21,083 --> 00:39:21,323

Yeah.

954

00:39:21,323 --> 00:39:22,313

We can completely handle it.

955

00:39:22,313 --> 00:39:23,183

And if we can't.

956

00:39:23,248 --> 00:39:25,048

Then you don't want that

person representing you.

957

00:39:25,108 --> 00:39:27,448

Christine: Yeah, I mean, and just to say

like, just because you have a baby face.

958

00:39:27,448 --> 00:39:31,818

I mean, when I started my practice

I was 29 and I probably at 29 had

959

00:39:31,818 --> 00:39:33,288

represented more people in court.

960

00:39:33,288 --> 00:39:37,488

Now, not family court, to be fair

at the time, but , then a lot of

961

00:39:37,488 --> 00:39:41,208

litigators too, so don't sometimes

the young ones that are ready to go.

962

00:39:41,398 --> 00:39:45,358

Also generally speaking, I think

anyone that worked at the public

963

00:39:45,358 --> 00:39:47,368

defender's office sure is a good hire.

964

00:39:47,738 --> 00:39:48,968

Hugh: We good lawyer, we Hi.

965

00:39:48,968 --> 00:39:49,148

Yeah.

966

00:39:49,148 --> 00:39:50,648

Well, we hired them as a firm.

967

00:39:50,678 --> 00:39:50,828

Yeah.

968

00:39:50,828 --> 00:39:53,198

Because they, they've been in

the courtroom more than anybody.

969

00:39:53,228 --> 00:39:53,528

Christine: Yeah.

970

00:39:53,623 --> 00:39:56,648

Hugh: I, I say that about the baby

face because I ran into that a ton.

971

00:39:56,768 --> 00:39:56,978

Christine: Yeah.

972

00:39:56,978 --> 00:39:57,128

And

973

00:39:57,128 --> 00:39:58,329

Hugh: I got asked that question a lot.

974

00:39:58,334 --> 00:39:58,863

Did you look young?

975

00:39:58,958 --> 00:40:02,043

And at first I was a little offended.

976

00:40:02,043 --> 00:40:02,443

Mm-hmm.

977

00:40:02,523 --> 00:40:04,598

And I just thought, oh,

someday my hair will be gray.

978

00:40:04,598 --> 00:40:06,548

And I, you know, I won't

get those questions anymore.

979

00:40:06,548 --> 00:40:09,038

But then I began to really appreciate it.

980

00:40:09,043 --> 00:40:09,203

Mm-hmm.

981

00:40:09,303 --> 00:40:12,483

. Attorneys spend their time advocating

for a client, they basically are

982

00:40:12,483 --> 00:40:14,673

selling the case to the court.

983

00:40:14,703 --> 00:40:14,793

Mm-hmm.

984

00:40:15,033 --> 00:40:17,343

Whether it's a jury,

whether it's the judge.

985

00:40:18,003 --> 00:40:22,863

By asking those questions, you give me a

chance to articulate things that I know in

986

00:40:22,863 --> 00:40:24,603

my head but don't necessarily think about.

987

00:40:24,903 --> 00:40:24,963

Yeah.

988

00:40:24,963 --> 00:40:28,023

And I, and by selling myself and

telling me why, , me telling you why

989

00:40:28,023 --> 00:40:31,323

I am a good fit for this case, it

makes me a better fit for the case.

990

00:40:31,383 --> 00:40:31,653

Christine: Yep.

991

00:40:31,983 --> 00:40:32,463

A hundred percent.

992

00:40:32,573 --> 00:40:37,763

So why do judges not follow KRS

statues and face no scrutiny

993

00:40:40,163 --> 00:40:43,943

So broad, but I think it goes to

the fact that judges don't face

994

00:40:43,943 --> 00:40:46,463

any scrutiny really ever at all.

995

00:40:46,463 --> 00:40:47,873

And that's what we're trying to change.

996

00:40:47,903 --> 00:40:48,173

Hugh: Yeah.

997

00:40:48,173 --> 00:40:50,933

, From a lawyer in practice, their

point of view, the scrutiny

998

00:40:50,933 --> 00:40:51,803

is the court of appeals.

999

00:40:51,808 --> 00:40:52,193

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1000

00:40:52,193 --> 00:40:56,513

You don't follow a statute, it, that's

what the Court of appeals is there for.

1001

00:40:56,543 --> 00:40:56,633

Mm-hmm.

1002

00:40:56,873 --> 00:41:02,393

And I will say through

a lot of my, my career.

1003

00:41:02,828 --> 00:41:07,028

I always had the feeling the court of

appeals just didn't worry too much with

1004

00:41:07,028 --> 00:41:11,318

family court cases that so many things in

family court I agree are discretionary,

1005

00:41:11,618 --> 00:41:13,593

that you would take things up that were.

1006

00:41:14,573 --> 00:41:15,743

Not discretionary.

1007

00:41:15,743 --> 00:41:19,343

Clearly a rule wasn't followed or a

law wasn't followed and they would just

1008

00:41:19,343 --> 00:41:22,043

act like it's disco discre, you know,

they didn't seem that interested in it.

1009

00:41:22,043 --> 00:41:26,213

Boy, that has shifted and the court of

appeals now looks for those violations.

1010

00:41:26,263 --> 00:41:31,183

I am very happy to see that they

are publishing cases that are

1011

00:41:31,183 --> 00:41:35,653

representative of things that

happen routinely in the court.

1012

00:41:36,303 --> 00:41:39,893

Christine: We got a question and

we've gotten some hate, question for

1013

00:41:39,893 --> 00:41:42,953

attorneys to hold judges accountable

who are attorneys belonging to the

1014

00:41:42,953 --> 00:41:46,103

same bar emoji like this, like, no way.

1015

00:41:47,408 --> 00:41:51,638

, Hugh: I can definitely see how

someone might feel that way, but

1016

00:41:53,978 --> 00:41:56,888

what do they think about attorneys

going after other attorneys?

1017

00:41:56,918 --> 00:41:58,568

That happens all the time as well.

1018

00:41:58,628 --> 00:42:00,518

It just, yeah, it's one big bar.

1019

00:42:00,518 --> 00:42:02,198

We've all been through the same training.

1020

00:42:02,783 --> 00:42:03,653

I just.

1021

00:42:05,528 --> 00:42:06,008

Christine: I don't know.

1022

00:42:06,713 --> 00:42:09,578

And I get this so much and I think it

maybe is new to you 'cause I can tell

1023

00:42:09,578 --> 00:42:12,248

a little bit from your reaction that

you're shocked that anyone would think

1024

00:42:12,248 --> 00:42:16,058

that we're literally two attorneys

that aren't practicing right now

1025

00:42:16,058 --> 00:42:17,558

because we couldn't take it anymore.

1026

00:42:17,708 --> 00:42:21,348

And we've dedicated, basically our

livelihood to holding judges accountable

1027

00:42:21,348 --> 00:42:25,458

and people think that we, it's like one

big club and it's smoke and mirrors.

1028

00:42:25,848 --> 00:42:30,318

And I'll say, I think the reason

for that is, is a lot of the whole

1029

00:42:30,318 --> 00:42:35,388

G-A-L-F-O-C court appointed practice

where everybody just sees like,

1030

00:42:35,388 --> 00:42:37,368

everybody's out to get me, we're one club.

1031

00:42:37,638 --> 00:42:41,808

Hugh: Well, I, one of the things I hated

most in my practice was when I would be

1032

00:42:41,808 --> 00:42:47,358

told by someone who was appointed on a

case or worked on a docket of some sort

1033

00:42:47,538 --> 00:42:50,598

you know, regularly worked in front of

one judge as a parent's attorney, GAL.

1034

00:42:51,478 --> 00:42:54,328

I, I understand what you're saying,

but that's just how we do it here.

1035

00:42:54,388 --> 00:42:54,658

Christine: Mm-hmm.

1036

00:42:55,018 --> 00:42:58,048

Hugh: Meaning forget the

rules, forget the law.

1037

00:42:58,078 --> 00:42:59,638

We sort of have a system worked out.

1038

00:42:59,638 --> 00:43:00,868

You better play along and we

1039

00:43:00,868 --> 00:43:02,398

Christine: get happy

hour after we're done.

1040

00:43:02,458 --> 00:43:04,258

Hugh: And that does happen.

1041

00:43:04,468 --> 00:43:04,558

Mm-hmm.

1042

00:43:04,798 --> 00:43:05,428

All the time.

1043

00:43:05,488 --> 00:43:11,048

So to a certain extent, , there are

clubs, but I can tell you that was

1044

00:43:11,048 --> 00:43:15,758

frustrating to the majority of the

attorneys that I knew, to the point of.

1045

00:43:16,853 --> 00:43:19,973

People were very angry about it

and, and people don't choose to look

1046

00:43:19,973 --> 00:43:21,533

the other way and people fight it.

1047

00:43:21,833 --> 00:43:27,383

I have a lot of colleagues that are filing

appeals and fighting that very sentiment

1048

00:43:27,383 --> 00:43:29,063

in that environment over in the court.

1049

00:43:29,478 --> 00:43:30,718

I think they, and sometimes

to their own detriment.

1050

00:43:31,028 --> 00:43:33,398

You know, being able to

go back in that division.

1051

00:43:33,578 --> 00:43:35,468

Christine: And I just think

that the avenue wasn't there.

1052

00:43:35,468 --> 00:43:39,608

Like I know I tried the avenues that

I thought I was supposed to go, I

1053

00:43:39,608 --> 00:43:41,018

told other judges what happened.

1054

00:43:41,228 --> 00:43:43,808

I told the judicial Conduct

Commission what happened, and

1055

00:43:43,808 --> 00:43:45,128

then nothing came from it.

1056

00:43:45,188 --> 00:43:49,508

And so I do think attorneys in the

day to day, it is not encouraged to

1057

00:43:49,508 --> 00:43:52,388

speak out about this bad behavior,

which is why you and I started this.

1058

00:43:52,388 --> 00:43:55,688

I mean, that's what our intent

behind it was, was just to make

1059

00:43:55,688 --> 00:43:57,518

everyone aware of what's happening.

1060

00:43:57,548 --> 00:43:57,968

Right.

1061

00:43:57,968 --> 00:43:59,048

Hugh: Yeah, absolutely.

1062

00:43:59,078 --> 00:43:59,528

And I.

1063

00:43:59,993 --> 00:44:04,523

I reached a stage in my career where

what I was doing to try to help

1064

00:44:04,523 --> 00:44:05,723

people and help families mm-hmm.

1065

00:44:05,963 --> 00:44:12,743

Was just being undermined by what I was

seeing and when considering a, a shift.

1066

00:44:13,543 --> 00:44:16,423

To do something different to try

something fresh and something different.

1067

00:44:16,473 --> 00:44:18,573

I try to take a more direct approach Yeah.

1068

00:44:18,873 --> 00:44:22,083

That might actually help people

in the future and can help people

1069

00:44:22,083 --> 00:44:24,783

avoid some of the trauma and some

of the problems that I saw for 20

1070

00:44:24,783 --> 00:44:26,103

years litigating in family court.

1071

00:44:26,553 --> 00:44:28,024

Christine: And I'm all

for like, let us earn.

1072

00:44:29,328 --> 00:44:33,348

Go in skeptical, but give us a

chance to show you what it is we're

1073

00:44:33,348 --> 00:44:34,458

trying to do and try to build.

1074

00:44:34,518 --> 00:44:36,978

That's what I would say to

these people that are like,

1075

00:44:37,008 --> 00:44:38,208

oh, you're, it's one big club.

1076

00:44:38,208 --> 00:44:39,138

Just give us a shot.

1077

00:44:39,138 --> 00:44:39,858

You know what I mean?

1078

00:44:39,978 --> 00:44:43,098

Hugh: Lawyers earn a lot

of the bad reputation.

1079

00:44:43,368 --> 00:44:43,458

True.

1080

00:44:43,458 --> 00:44:46,308

But there are plenty of people that

are never gonna listen to attorneys.

1081

00:44:46,428 --> 00:44:46,548

Mm-hmm.

1082

00:44:46,788 --> 00:44:47,928

Why are you commenting on it?

1083

00:44:47,928 --> 00:44:48,918

Why are you listening to it?

1084

00:44:48,923 --> 00:44:48,973

Mm-hmm.

1085

00:44:49,053 --> 00:44:51,168

If you're not gonna trust what

an attorney says anyway, go.

1086

00:44:51,468 --> 00:44:54,858

There's plenty of other videos or

cat videos or, you know, hateful

1087

00:44:54,858 --> 00:44:56,238

things to go look at online.

1088

00:44:56,748 --> 00:44:57,258

Cat videos.

1089

00:44:57,263 --> 00:44:59,443

You don't, you don't, you

don't have to watch, but.

1090

00:45:00,513 --> 00:45:01,503

Yeah, give us a shot.

1091

00:45:01,653 --> 00:45:06,303

Christine: But speaking of, let's

go on to our viral clip of the week.

1092

00:45:06,353 --> 00:45:11,813

And remember if you want us to analyze

one tag, judge underscore y on TikTok,

1093

00:45:11,843 --> 00:45:15,593

judging the judges on Instagram or

anything with me is Kentucky Christine.

1094

00:45:15,863 --> 00:45:20,603

And we every week are gonna look at judges

kind of, maybe not judges behaving badly,

1095

00:45:20,603 --> 00:45:22,763

but I would just say viral judge moments.

1096

00:45:22,763 --> 00:45:24,263

I think that's the better way to put it.

1097

00:45:24,263 --> 00:45:24,923

Do you know what I'm saying?

1098

00:45:24,923 --> 00:45:25,108

Yeah, that's smart.

1099

00:45:25,903 --> 00:45:32,653

So let me, we've gotten, I've gotten

17 text messages since we started this.

1100

00:45:32,653 --> 00:45:34,363

That shows how excited people are.

1101

00:45:34,663 --> 00:45:36,373

All right, let's watch.

1102

00:45:40,843 --> 00:45:41,623

At the same time.

1103

00:45:42,693 --> 00:45:47,818

Well, I, excuse me, Asia, who?

1104

00:45:51,443 --> 00:45:52,383

Hugh: Why are you so late?

1105

00:45:53,228 --> 00:45:54,428

She making a sandwich?

1106

00:45:54,433 --> 00:45:54,693

Mm-hmm.

1107

00:45:55,778 --> 00:45:57,488

Uh, because I have a paper right here

1108

00:45:57,788 --> 00:46:02,648

that shows my court started at one

o'clock, but then when I called, uh,

1109

00:46:03,698 --> 00:46:10,178

right here, if you can look on this

thing right here, it says one o'clock.

1110

00:46:14,288 --> 00:46:16,238

Christine: He's not looking at the

paper, he is looking at his docket.

1111

00:46:17,828 --> 00:46:19,238

Hugh: No, he doesn't appear to be looking.

1112

00:46:21,658 --> 00:46:27,113

It looks like I saw 9:00 AM I have,

well, I had one on one of those papers.

1113

00:46:28,178 --> 00:46:30,598

You're just showing abridge.

1114

00:46:39,008 --> 00:46:39,668

Excuse me.

1115

00:46:45,593 --> 00:46:46,193

I know.

1116

00:46:46,193 --> 00:46:49,133

Put your, put whatever, whatever

you're trying to prepare now

1117

00:46:49,343 --> 00:46:50,333

I'm trying be my daughter.

1118

00:46:51,503 --> 00:46:56,063

Get your coat, get, get, take your,

you gotta put your properly dressed on.

1119

00:46:56,288 --> 00:46:57,688

I don't, I properly dress.

1120

00:46:57,713 --> 00:46:58,793

I have on a t-shirt.

1121

00:46:59,033 --> 00:47:01,163

I'm properly Is that a rob?

1122

00:47:02,993 --> 00:47:03,803

It's a problem, sir.

1123

00:47:04,223 --> 00:47:04,973

Not even doing that.

1124

00:47:05,003 --> 00:47:06,113

Do you ask me a question?

1125

00:47:06,113 --> 00:47:06,923

I'm answering.

1126

00:47:07,013 --> 00:47:08,123

My daughter is sick.

1127

00:47:08,183 --> 00:47:09,833

I had to keep going from school.

1128

00:47:09,833 --> 00:47:11,033

I'm just trying to feed her.

1129

00:47:11,033 --> 00:47:11,693

That is it.

1130

00:47:15,698 --> 00:47:15,818

I'm

1131

00:47:15,818 --> 00:47:18,203

Christine: sorry that your daughter

is sick, but again, are you?

1132

00:47:18,203 --> 00:47:19,363

You okay?

1133

00:47:20,253 --> 00:47:20,963

Treat it as

1134

00:47:21,923 --> 00:47:22,043

I

1135

00:47:26,953 --> 00:47:27,243

have.

1136

00:47:27,243 --> 00:47:27,683

Clothes.

1137

00:47:32,233 --> 00:47:32,723

Clothes

1138

00:47:34,623 --> 00:47:34,843

Christine: it.

1139

00:47:36,308 --> 00:47:36,758

All right.

1140

00:47:36,758 --> 00:47:37,328

What do you think?

1141

00:47:37,628 --> 00:47:40,958

Hugh: I think this is a good

example of what can go wrong

1142

00:47:40,958 --> 00:47:41,888

with having Zoom hearing.

1143

00:47:42,413 --> 00:47:43,433

Or Zoom court.

1144

00:47:43,433 --> 00:47:43,553

Great.

1145

00:47:43,583 --> 00:47:47,123

And I know that you are not a fan of Zoom.

1146

00:47:47,123 --> 00:47:48,383

I absolutely love it.

1147

00:47:48,503 --> 00:47:53,123

I think it's important and a very

hard thing for judges to do to make

1148

00:47:53,123 --> 00:47:57,863

it still be court when people are

standing there in their own environment.

1149

00:47:57,893 --> 00:47:57,953

Yeah.

1150

00:47:57,953 --> 00:47:59,753

I think it's a constant frustration.

1151

00:47:59,753 --> 00:48:03,458

I know, especially during the pandemic,

the kinds of things we would see.

1152

00:48:03,863 --> 00:48:06,863

I mean, and as attorneys, you're

standing there, it's not on your case.

1153

00:48:06,863 --> 00:48:11,123

You're watching some person pro se

do something or you hear a toilet

1154

00:48:11,123 --> 00:48:13,583

flush because someone's got their

audio on while they're waiting

1155

00:48:13,583 --> 00:48:14,453

for their case to be called.

1156

00:48:15,173 --> 00:48:16,193

It was funny, you know?

1157

00:48:16,343 --> 00:48:16,403

Yeah.

1158

00:48:16,403 --> 00:48:20,123

For a little while it was

novel and funny, but to me.

1159

00:48:21,653 --> 00:48:24,503

, I agree here that he's

telling her You're in court.

1160

00:48:24,743 --> 00:48:26,453

This is a court proceeding.

1161

00:48:26,813 --> 00:48:30,653

I get that she is staying at

home with her kid who's sick.

1162

00:48:30,653 --> 00:48:31,223

That stinks.

1163

00:48:31,223 --> 00:48:31,853

I've been there.

1164

00:48:32,033 --> 00:48:32,513

I know.

1165

00:48:32,513 --> 00:48:33,593

I know how that is.

1166

00:48:33,953 --> 00:48:36,923

But you're still in a court of

law when you're appearing by Zoom.

1167

00:48:36,923 --> 00:48:38,093

You are still in a court.

1168

00:48:38,093 --> 00:48:39,443

You don't talk over the judge.

1169

00:48:40,023 --> 00:48:40,983

Christine: Well, I mean, it's Zoom too.

1170

00:48:40,983 --> 00:48:42,033

That's one of the problems though.

1171

00:48:42,033 --> 00:48:45,153

It's so hard to read the room because

somebody asked you a question.

1172

00:48:45,153 --> 00:48:45,478

I don't, you don't.

1173

00:48:45,478 --> 00:48:46,653

I immediately respond.

1174

00:48:46,653 --> 00:48:46,758

Don't think that

1175

00:48:46,758 --> 00:48:47,638

was hard to read the room.

1176

00:48:48,278 --> 00:48:51,093

I think that a very poor reading

of the, of the room, but she

1177

00:48:51,093 --> 00:48:53,493

Christine: had a picture up and

we don't know what the charge is.

1178

00:48:53,493 --> 00:48:57,003

So if it's like a traffic ticket compared

to, you know, we don't know that.

1179

00:48:57,003 --> 00:49:00,263

But she says I have something that

says I have to be there at one.

1180

00:49:00,263 --> 00:49:02,843

And he's like, well, I got something

that says I have to be here at nine.

1181

00:49:03,003 --> 00:49:03,753

Which y'all

1182

00:49:03,753 --> 00:49:04,893

Hugh: we know happens all the time.

1183

00:49:05,043 --> 00:49:09,093

Christine: I mean, literally happens

hundreds of times a day probably

1184

00:49:09,093 --> 00:49:10,323

in, oh, at least in Kentucky.

1185

00:49:10,323 --> 00:49:12,363

Hugh: But I don't know what

actually happened there if she was

1186

00:49:12,363 --> 00:49:14,073

told to be there at one o'clock.

1187

00:49:14,943 --> 00:49:17,013

Yeah, , I would see that

happen all the time.

1188

00:49:17,018 --> 00:49:19,593

And, and that's gonna happen when you,

when you have a court that processes

1189

00:49:19,653 --> 00:49:23,283

tens of thousands of cases if she's

in a large location especially.

1190

00:49:23,343 --> 00:49:23,643

Christine: Yeah.

1191

00:49:23,853 --> 00:49:28,653

Hugh: But I, I'm just, you know,

commenting on the interaction there, I.

1192

00:49:29,513 --> 00:49:32,753

I just can't imagine if I'm on the

bench and I'm constantly dealing with

1193

00:49:32,753 --> 00:49:39,323

people that are in a bathroom making a

sandwich and talking over with me, and.

1194

00:49:40,103 --> 00:49:40,223

Christine: Well,

1195

00:49:40,223 --> 00:49:40,763

Hugh: she's trying

1196

00:49:40,763 --> 00:49:42,143

Christine: to explain

why she's late though.

1197

00:49:42,173 --> 00:49:43,223

'cause he's like, why are you late?

1198

00:49:43,223 --> 00:49:47,363

And she's like, I got one o'clock and

I've got a piece of paper that says one.

1199

00:49:47,363 --> 00:49:48,113

He's like, no, no, no.

1200

00:49:48,143 --> 00:49:49,133

I've got nine.

1201

00:49:49,133 --> 00:49:49,823

And so agree.

1202

00:49:49,823 --> 00:49:51,563

You're on the wrong foot right there.

1203

00:49:51,653 --> 00:49:51,773

Yeah.

1204

00:49:51,803 --> 00:49:52,853

Also , okay,

1205

00:49:53,423 --> 00:49:57,563

Hugh: I, but it didn't help that the

camera was showing you making a sandwich.

1206

00:49:57,563 --> 00:49:57,983

I mean, for your

1207

00:49:57,983 --> 00:49:58,703

Christine: sick daughter.

1208

00:50:00,563 --> 00:50:02,183

Hugh: Understand that, but.

1209

00:50:03,113 --> 00:50:05,803

Christine: I don't, I mean, it's

not, I'm not asking for, I agree.

1210

00:50:05,803 --> 00:50:08,683

It's not a perfect way to, it's

not a perfect, I wouldn't advise

1211

00:50:08,683 --> 00:50:09,073

Hugh: do it.

1212

00:50:09,073 --> 00:50:11,713

I think it's, I think it

would be disrespectful to

1213

00:50:11,713 --> 00:50:12,648

someone that wasn't a judge.

1214

00:50:13,588 --> 00:50:18,328

If you're on a Zoom meeting with

somebody or you start off by saying,

1215

00:50:18,328 --> 00:50:19,588

I'm so sorry that I'm having to do that.

1216

00:50:19,588 --> 00:50:20,608

I mean, we've all had that.

1217

00:50:20,788 --> 00:50:20,908

Yeah.

1218

00:50:20,908 --> 00:50:25,378

I've had to attend a motion hour or

a hearing and start it from my car

1219

00:50:25,378 --> 00:50:26,848

because I was racing from another court.

1220

00:50:27,028 --> 00:50:27,088

Yeah.

1221

00:50:27,088 --> 00:50:29,158

Or I had one time I got rear ended.

1222

00:50:29,443 --> 00:50:32,593

And I had a hearing coming up and I had

to, I had to send someone from the office

1223

00:50:32,593 --> 00:50:36,403

over to cover for me, but I had to log

in from my car while I was waiting for

1224

00:50:36,403 --> 00:50:37,933

the police to be there to file a report.

1225

00:50:38,173 --> 00:50:39,013

It happens.

1226

00:50:39,133 --> 00:50:39,193

Yeah.

1227

00:50:39,193 --> 00:50:41,713

But I usually would start

that conversation by saying,

1228

00:50:41,713 --> 00:50:42,673

yeah, I'm sorry, your Honor.

1229

00:50:42,673 --> 00:50:43,723

This is what's going on.

1230

00:50:43,723 --> 00:50:45,658

This is why I'm sitting

in my car, whatever.

1231

00:50:46,173 --> 00:50:47,073

Christine: But let's back up.

1232

00:50:47,073 --> 00:50:50,403

Like now, if a lawyer were doing

that, I would have a very different

1233

00:50:50,403 --> 00:50:52,203

critique that is a pro se person.

1234

00:50:52,203 --> 00:50:55,773

And I'm not saying what she did was

perfect, but also it, it goes back

1235

00:50:55,773 --> 00:51:01,413

to judges just not understanding that

they work for the general public.

1236

00:51:01,653 --> 00:51:04,983

And I just don't see the necess,

like, I don't see meaning like,

1237

00:51:05,013 --> 00:51:08,343

oh, dress properly for court,

which she did have on a t-shirt.

1238

00:51:08,553 --> 00:51:10,503

I mean, she, it looked like

she had a robe, like, or maybe

1239

00:51:10,503 --> 00:51:11,853

her kid's blanket thrown over.

1240

00:51:12,003 --> 00:51:13,803

But I mean, in fairness,

what's the judge wearing?

1241

00:51:15,418 --> 00:51:16,048

Hugh: A robe over it.

1242

00:51:16,048 --> 00:51:17,428

So you can't sit a robe.

1243

00:51:17,488 --> 00:51:20,218

Christine: I mean, you know, it's

just like, pick your battles.

1244

00:51:20,218 --> 00:51:23,848

And to me it's one of those

condensation, wait, is that, that's

1245

00:51:23,848 --> 00:51:27,963

air conditioning, the condescending

notion that judges have LOL.

1246

00:51:28,023 --> 00:51:29,253

That's like my normal, , it's.

1247

00:51:29,898 --> 00:51:34,368

Bullet, county educated speak, but I, you

know, I don't necessarily think this judge

1248

00:51:34,368 --> 00:51:37,233

is like way outta line like the last,

when we watched by any means this, this

1249

00:51:37,238 --> 00:51:38,088

Hugh: doesn't bother me.

1250

00:51:38,138 --> 00:51:41,648

And I, that's strange to say, and we

probably disagree on some of these others.

1251

00:51:41,648 --> 00:51:46,143

I remember when I first started my

practice and was kind of appalled.

1252

00:51:46,873 --> 00:51:49,513

Because I mean, when you go to law

school and you do the training, you

1253

00:51:49,513 --> 00:51:52,243

think it's this great formal process

and you go to your first court

1254

00:51:52,243 --> 00:51:55,603

appearances, especially on a cattle

call docket or in district court mm-hmm.

1255

00:51:55,843 --> 00:51:57,883

Where a lot of the people are pro

se and they're sitting there and you

1256

00:51:57,883 --> 00:52:02,703

realize, oh, that person's wearing pajama

pants and like pink bunny slippers.

1257

00:52:02,733 --> 00:52:02,823

Mm-hmm.

1258

00:52:03,063 --> 00:52:07,143

That person is dressed head to

toe in, like marijuana, kind

1259

00:52:07,143 --> 00:52:08,793

of get up to show up for court.

1260

00:52:08,793 --> 00:52:11,793

There, there are things like that

that it bothered me only in as

1261

00:52:11,793 --> 00:52:14,793

much as, as like I felt that.

1262

00:52:15,713 --> 00:52:17,123

I could feel how serious this was.

1263

00:52:17,123 --> 00:52:18,323

It was very serious to me.

1264

00:52:18,383 --> 00:52:18,623

Yeah.

1265

00:52:18,623 --> 00:52:22,433

And I, and when a judge would speak out

and someone would walk up and they would

1266

00:52:22,433 --> 00:52:26,243

have a shirt that had no sleeves and they

were hanging out of it and like really

1267

00:52:26,243 --> 00:52:29,903

short, they would walk up, they would

make a comment about, next time you hear a

1268

00:52:29,903 --> 00:52:32,873

dress appropriately for coming to court or

1269

00:52:32,873 --> 00:52:35,693

, Christine: there's like the

socioeconomic difference between judges.

1270

00:52:35,723 --> 00:52:39,113

I get both sides of it now, but

speaking about marijuana t-shirts, I

1271

00:52:39,113 --> 00:52:42,143

mean, we got a judge here in Louisville

that wears marijuana earrings.

1272

00:52:43,103 --> 00:52:44,753

Well, and post about it on social media.

1273

00:52:44,753 --> 00:52:48,588

I, I hear what you're saying, but a

funny story about eastern Kentucky,

1274

00:52:48,588 --> 00:52:49,638

about what to wear to court.

1275

00:52:49,638 --> 00:52:52,608

There was this one guy that used to

come to district court, and I don't

1276

00:52:52,608 --> 00:52:53,748

know why he was in there all the time.

1277

00:52:53,748 --> 00:52:55,428

This was Eastern Kentucky, so

you'd have like the regular.

1278

00:52:55,563 --> 00:52:59,073

Every single time he'd come to court,

he would wear the person that ran

1279

00:52:59,073 --> 00:53:01,183

against the judge's, , campaign t-shirt.

1280

00:53:03,343 --> 00:53:07,393

Honestly, this judge was so cool and

thought it was funny, like, and you know,

1281

00:53:07,393 --> 00:53:11,093

it was just like a small town dig, but

he never took it out on the litigant.

1282

00:53:11,483 --> 00:53:12,173

But I digress.

1283

00:53:12,263 --> 00:53:12,623

Well, I mean, that

1284

00:53:12,623 --> 00:53:15,178

Hugh: could have been, you know,

if you were actually friends with

1285

00:53:15,183 --> 00:53:18,143

the person, they were doing that

just for fun at emotion hour.

1286

00:53:18,183 --> 00:53:20,283

I could see that being funny, but I mean.

1287

00:53:21,513 --> 00:53:21,933

Christine: Good for them.

1288

00:53:21,933 --> 00:53:24,513

And at least that judge was like,

okay, you didn't vote for me, but

1289

00:53:24,513 --> 00:53:26,283

I'm not gonna scream and yell at you.

1290

00:53:26,283 --> 00:53:27,033

You know what I mean?

1291

00:53:27,033 --> 00:53:27,453

But I mean,

1292

00:53:28,283 --> 00:53:32,543

Hugh: All in all honesty, if we are

saying that these judges, and especially

1293

00:53:32,543 --> 00:53:35,843

the ones that we've talked about

mostly on this podcast, are dealing

1294

00:53:35,843 --> 00:53:37,578

with things that are so serious Yeah.

1295

00:53:37,763 --> 00:53:37,823

Yeah.

1296

00:53:37,823 --> 00:53:38,138

To people.

1297

00:53:39,623 --> 00:53:41,723

You've gotta expect people

to take it seriously as well.

1298

00:53:41,723 --> 00:53:45,293

You can't expect it just to be the judges

that take it seriously if nobody else, if

1299

00:53:45,293 --> 00:53:50,123

you are in outwardly outward appearances,

not taking it serious yourself, I don't

1300

00:53:50,123 --> 00:53:51,563

know that you have much to complain about.

1301

00:53:51,623 --> 00:53:53,003

That's just sort of how I feel about it

1302

00:53:53,053 --> 00:53:54,643

. Christine: I think it's,

I'm a top down person.

1303

00:53:54,643 --> 00:53:55,813

I think we all get Yeah.

1304

00:53:55,843 --> 00:53:58,843

You know, we all learn from, , managers

and I having higher expectation

1305

00:53:58,843 --> 00:54:02,433

of a pro se litigant than I do

a person wearing the black robe,

1306

00:54:02,673 --> 00:54:04,593

but agree to disagree on this one.

1307

00:54:04,598 --> 00:54:04,983

Hugh: No, no, no.

1308

00:54:04,983 --> 00:54:05,733

I agree with that.

1309

00:54:05,823 --> 00:54:11,313

I, but I think that to the extent

that it gets tolerated and, you

1310

00:54:11,313 --> 00:54:15,223

know, a judge doesn't say something

about it, then it just I think what

1311

00:54:15,223 --> 00:54:17,713

we tolerate, we end up endorsing.

1312

00:54:18,598 --> 00:54:19,038

Christine: I hear ya.

1313

00:54:19,258 --> 00:54:20,548

Hugh: From a judge, pick your battles.

1314

00:54:20,548 --> 00:54:21,508

I get that, but

1315

00:54:21,898 --> 00:54:22,948

Christine: that's my jam with this one.

1316

00:54:22,948 --> 00:54:23,463

Pick your battles.

1317

00:54:23,463 --> 00:54:23,703

I would've been

1318

00:54:23,783 --> 00:54:25,343

Hugh: frustrated too, and, and, you know.

1319

00:54:26,338 --> 00:54:28,738

That while it happens all the time.

1320

00:54:28,738 --> 00:54:31,288

And that woman probably had

something that said 9:00 AM

1321

00:54:31,288 --> 00:54:32,668

and we know, I mean, why Yeah.

1322

00:54:32,673 --> 00:54:35,818

1, 1, 1 pm and was supposed to be there

at 9:00 AM 'cause I've seen that happen.

1323

00:54:36,118 --> 00:54:37,438

It's happened on cases that I've had.

1324

00:54:37,438 --> 00:54:37,528

Mm-hmm.

1325

00:54:37,528 --> 00:54:39,688

As an attorney gets screwed

up, that does happen.

1326

00:54:39,688 --> 00:54:42,598

But you also know that judge has been

sitting there and has heard so many

1327

00:54:42,598 --> 00:54:45,508

people probably that day say, oh, I,

I was told it was a different time.

1328

00:54:45,508 --> 00:54:46,108

And then people that just w

1329

00:54:46,618 --> 00:54:48,988

Christine: you have to do

the job you signed up for how

1330

00:54:48,988 --> 00:54:50,638

many people at McDonald's?

1331

00:54:50,648 --> 00:54:51,998

Don't like that job.

1332

00:54:51,998 --> 00:54:53,978

How many people changing your oil?

1333

00:54:53,978 --> 00:54:54,818

You know what I'm saying?

1334

00:54:54,818 --> 00:54:55,808

Blah, blah, blah.

1335

00:54:55,808 --> 00:54:55,868

I'm

1336

00:54:55,868 --> 00:54:57,728

Hugh: just, I'm just saying that

there's going to be some built-in

1337

00:54:57,728 --> 00:54:59,048

level of skepticism there.

1338

00:54:59,048 --> 00:55:02,318

'cause you're probably fed a line

of BS by a lot of people about that.

1339

00:55:02,318 --> 00:55:02,453

Sad me,

1340

00:55:02,453 --> 00:55:05,858

Christine: I have the job that I signed

up for and paid to, you know, run for

1341

00:55:05,858 --> 00:55:08,048

office or got appointed by a governor.

1342

00:55:08,108 --> 00:55:08,948

Hugh: Well, you might be.

1343

00:55:09,723 --> 00:55:12,538

You, you might get a different

reaction from a judge if you were

1344

00:55:12,538 --> 00:55:14,698

appearing and appearing professionally.

1345

00:55:15,298 --> 00:55:15,778

Christine: Boo hoo hoo.

1346

00:55:15,778 --> 00:55:16,558

I You're not making a

1347

00:55:16,558 --> 00:55:18,898

Hugh: sandwich and talking over the judge.

1348

00:55:19,138 --> 00:55:19,588

So,

1349

00:55:20,068 --> 00:55:20,398

Christine: but anyway.

1350

00:55:20,398 --> 00:55:22,228

Well, that is a great place to segue.

1351

00:55:22,278 --> 00:55:23,448

Y'all, we are so excited.

1352

00:55:23,448 --> 00:55:26,058

Like we really are on cloud nine today.

1353

00:55:26,058 --> 00:55:29,778

Our podcast dropped probably like three

hours ago when the feedback has been like.

1354

00:55:29,948 --> 00:55:30,698

So overwhelming.

1355

00:55:30,698 --> 00:55:31,958

Like honestly, I probably will cry.

1356

00:55:31,958 --> 00:55:32,978

I like tears of joy later.

1357

00:55:33,168 --> 00:55:33,798

And you're excited.

1358

00:55:33,798 --> 00:55:34,218

I can tell.

1359

00:55:34,218 --> 00:55:38,418

Like we are just like amped up and

we like, appreciate y'all so much.

1360

00:55:38,448 --> 00:55:40,158

Send us questions that you have.

1361

00:55:40,188 --> 00:55:44,148

This is a process judge y.com,

1362

00:55:44,398 --> 00:55:46,168

, judgey on all of the platforms.

1363

00:55:46,168 --> 00:55:50,188

If you search, tell us your stories

and if you are in the public and

1364

00:55:50,188 --> 00:55:54,448

you like this, seriously, they think

that they can control you with yard

1365

00:55:54,448 --> 00:55:57,688

signs and public action committees.

1366

00:55:57,863 --> 00:55:58,583

They're wrong.

1367

00:55:58,613 --> 00:55:59,003

Okay.

1368

00:55:59,003 --> 00:56:00,473

Like share, send info./