Feed the cat, take the bins out, listen to this podcast. From the timeless paper and pen to the more recent digital calendar or kanban board, to-do lists - whatever their form - are an attempt to remove chaos and inertia from our lives. But do they work?

In this week’s podcast, we discuss the efficacy of to-do lists. We try to ascertain whether there is an optimal number of things that should go on a to-do list, delve into the great irony that to-do lists are rarely ever completed and attempt to discover if there is something fundamental about writing lists in the first place. We discuss the birth of early forms of writing, the psychological phenomenon known as the Zeigarnik effect and why studies show that producing a to-do list may bring you closer to achieving your goals. Finally, we disclose some of the things we just can’t seem to cross off our own to-do lists.

A few things we mentioned in this podcast:

• The Zeigarnik Effect
• The Cognitive Effect of Making Plans
• Going on Holiday? Leave the ‘To Do’ List at Home
• The Psychology of the To-Do List – Why Your Brain Loves Ordered Tasks

For more information on Aleph Insights visit our website https://alephinsights.com or to get in touch about our podcast email [email protected]

Hello and welcome to the Cognitive Engineering Podcast produced by me, Fraser McGruer for Aleph Insights. In this series of podcasts we take a look at interesting topics and discuss what we think they tell us about analysis and decision making. I'm here with Chris Wragg, Nick Hare and Jordan Fermanis of Aleph Insights and this week we're discussing to-do lists. I think Nick you're kicking us off, but do you keep to-do lists? I've got a much more sophisticated system than that. There's a hierarchy. It's not exactly, I don't, I'm actually not a big to-do list guy, but I've managed all of my other systems so that they're effectively a functional to-do list. So my... Wait, wait, wait. So before we get onto the Hare sort of to-do list universe, everyone keeps to-do lists. Chris, do you? Yes, I keep to-do lists, yes. And digital or just good old... Paper and pen. Jordan? Not really. Just not at all? Occasionally. So I'm interested to see how things get done with you. Yeah, or not. Yeah, right, exactly. I've got everything, you know, I have pen and paper, I've got full-on technology apps and I've got also even halfway in between where you can write stuff down on reusable notepads which also goes onto the internet. Yeah, so I've got them all but I'm you know, I'm not sure to what extent I get stuff done. Let's hear about the Nick Hare thing. We haven't talked about why we want to talk about this, but anyway, you go on. Well, I mean, look, are they a good idea? I think it's the gist. Or do they actually prevent you from getting the really important stuff done? But I mean, basically I have, and I think the reason we're talking about this is probably my feeling that I'm slightly tyrannized by my own system because, you know, and I feel like I'm pretty productive. And it's based on this system where, so first of all, I'm an inbox zero guy. Now that means that most of the time I don't actually have an empty inbox, but my aim is to get to an empty inbox. And I mean, of course, email inbox. Sounds like you're creating dissatisfaction in your life, go on. Right, but about 10 minutes every hour or something of that order, I will go into my email, you know, see if there's anything new, look at the typically five or six things that are in there and think, which one am I doing next? I've got to do one of them. And obviously, the one at the bottom, I, the oldest one gets kind of priority. So this suggests you don't have email notifications turned on. Right, no, I certainly don't have notifications. I bloody hate them. Right. But the point is that, so email is my primary task management system. Now you're going to say, but what if there's a task that isn't an email? Aha, here's my answer. Is that if I need to do something next Wednesday, I will put a calendar reminder in to my calendar and it will pop up in my inbox. So basically, that's the way I do it. And I think almost everything is either in my emails or it's going to be because it's in my calendar. And if I put something in my calendar, it will get done, like I will definitely do it. And I have a kind of incentive to do it because I want, desperately want to finish my inbox and get it empty. And I am not a kind of sit down, what five things do I have to do today kind of guy because I know that I can only ever do about one thing a day. But, you know, this system at least means. So if I want, if I'm going to have a bath, I know I have to actually make time for that. That goes in the calendar. You know, other people think this is ridiculous, but that is how I get stuff done is I go, what's in the, you know, practice, practice the piano because you've got your lesson on Thursday. It's like everything is in there. And so I know that I will get to it. Chris. Yeah, I mean, I think,

um, I think to do lists exist for everybody in some sense, right? I mean, in some form or another, that that there's something fundamental about them. I mean, if you look at if you if you look at it, you know, if you look at the birth of writing, for example, you know, five and a half thousand years ago in Mesopotamia, and subsequently, you know, created in other places around the world in parallel, you know, Mesoamerica, you know, a few thousand years later, and so on. And you look at what the writing was for instantly, you know, when it was in its more pictographic form. Very often, it is about, it is about lists of things, it's keeping track of things, their inventories, they might not be lists of things to do. But arguably, an inventory is similar to a to do list in that it's about keeping track of things you have to manage or complete or make sure you don't lose, you know. And so so I think, you know, one of our most fundamental forms of communication was kind of born from this idea of creating lists. So we could, you know, we could keep track of things that we're unable to hold in our head. And that's really what a what a list is. And but more than that, it's about, it's about a to do list is about our intent made manifest, right, the act of writing it down, is explicitly acknowledging to ourself, there is a thing, a thing to do. And you know, you've conceptualized it, and you put it down. So I think a to do list is something incredibly fundamental to our way of managing tasks, life, everything,

getting through this life. Yeah. So how are you? Are you? Are you just a pen and paper guy, pen and

paper guy, and every so often, the old list gets binned. And I, you know, the few remaining things on it, I put on it, I do that. But, you know, I think it's really instructive, what, what goes on the list, right? You know, I mean, you don't, you don't put have breakfast on your list. I mean, you know, unless you're Nick Hare. Yeah, you know, so, so it's obviously, it's obviously not about the maintenance of the routine. It's about things that either you feel the requirement to write down and commit to, or that you think you might forget otherwise. So but I think, you know, I think what goes on the to do list is very instructive about what these things are.

Oh, I mean, and also one of the good things. One of the things I think that's nice on the to do list, putting your bath in there is that you don't have to think about it anymore. But also you've created the time. I think we'll get to that. Yeah, first I want to know how Jordan is even alive. Absolutely. Well, before we do, though, before we do, what both you and I know, Chris, and something that Nick is missing out on life is that physical crossing off of something on a list. That's really nice. I want to talk about priorities in a bit. But anyway, and that goes back to what goes on the list as well. Jordan, how you look like an organized chap. You're, you're dressed, you're shaved, you've got socks and shoes on. You know, you look nice. How is he doing this? You have his email inbox telling him to shave. Yeah. So what's going on? How do you organize?

I think as Chris, I think I do have a to do list, but it's a mental, I think I keep a mental to do list. But that doesn't that drive you mental? I mean, Not really, because I'm slowly sort of, inevitably, things get missed. But I think they do with to do lists as well, or things get sort of left off. But no, I just, I guess I'm just not in the habit. I have a calendar, I have a calendar, I have a calendar, I guess. An electronic one. An electronic one, which I suppose is some kind of to do list. But yeah, no, I just.

You just keep it in your head. Yeah, I think there is a, there is an element, which is that the world will remind you of those things that are, you know, essential, like eating breakfast, you know, or, you know, other bodily functions, you know, you don't, you don't have to tell yourself to do those, they will come about. Likewise, you don't have to remind yourself to, you know, to run away if a lion shows up or something, you know, those are so.

Well, here's a question. Hang on, wait, I think the thing is that Chris has described the exact opposite of to do list people. And in a way, I'm a bit envious of them. Well, look, this is what I'm going to ask about, Nick. So, because what I'm interested to know, Jordan, if someone who knows you well, and they were asked to describe you, do you think that that person would say that you're organised? And the reason why I ask that is I think anyone who would be asked to describe Nick would say, no, he's not very organised. They might be right or wrong, but that's what they might say. But we've talked about this on a podcast before, which is designing systems around your life, is that you need those systems, Nick, as do I, to keep you organised. Okay. And maybe you're just a naturally, you got it together, Jordan.

I think I'm organised, but I think sometimes I might, not everything gets ticked off, which, but I'm not sure that's the same thing as being organised.

Okay. But I think that's absolutely right. I mean, that's the key thing. It's like, I feel it's almost a hare and tortoise situation, is that naturally organised people, people who can remember stuff and will do them and will think, oh, you know what? It's been a couple of days since I had a bath. I'll have one. They feel that they don't really need to do lists. And I know that I'm not like that. I won't have a bath unless I actually put it in the calendar. It will not occur to me, you know, to do that. And so, and I think in a way that means I end up actually being more organised. I feel like most of the time, it's me sending an email to someone and say, here's the thing that we need to do. You know, how are you getting on with this thing? Like, because I've got a reminder and it says, we've got to set up this meeting. So I'm like, well, okay. Well, it's almost always me doing that. It's like, I'm going to, but the alternative, of course, and as I said, people I'm quite sort of envious of are the, as Chris put it, the world will remind you kind of people when, look, if this was actually important, someone would phone me up and say, where's that thing? And then I'd do it. I can't live that way. I want to mention the Zeigarnik effect. Well, it's really jumping off point for the kind of theory here. But the Zeigarnik effect was, it's a Russian psychologist who, Bluma Zeigarnik, yeah, who had basically looked at the fact that waiters, well, good waiters, you know, in a nice restaurant will simply remember your order, right? You know, that you go in a really good restaurant where they don't even write it down. They just listen to what you're saying. And they go off and out comes your, you know, food with the shaved truffles. I've never been to a good enough restaurant. But I mean, look, good waiters don't need to write stuff down. Now, but the point is, they will remember your order, you know, perfectly, but until the minute is served, and then they cannot recall what you ordered, right? It gets deleted from their kind of working memory. And I feel like the more things I can get out of that, the better. The more things I can get out of my working memory, you know, if I have to, like I have all the time in my pocket, a permanent shopping list. And when I know that I need something, I'll write something on it. Yeah. And it's gone. And then I think, well, next time in a shop, I'll look at that. And I'll think, oh, yeah, I've got to get some more coffee. But I can't live like, you know, constantly thinking, oh, what was the three things I need to get eggs and something else? You know, I can't live like that. We'll come back on to this. I want to talk about priorities. Because how do you like buy eggs, you know, get my hair cut, invade Poland? You know, that's one of the things I struggle with. And I often get loads of stuff done on my list. But it's all like the get the haircut stuff. And I've yet to invade Poland. Chris? Well, I was sort of going to pick up on both those points,

really. I think that, you know, there's more to this, this zergonic effect than, than just simply the offloading of your sort of short, short term memory. You know, there's this whole kind of, you know, subsequent set of psychological kind of studies that have looked at, you know, the impact of writing down goals. But but fundamentally, that you will, you are more likely to remember an unfinished job than than one that is finished, right, which was the point Nick was making about the waiters. But what that means is when you when you write a list, the theory kind of goes that by writing something down, you are in effect, starting that task. That's the the kind of you've begun that task. So you write it down, you make it manifest. And then it sits in your short term memory, right? And is a source of angst, to some extent. Yeah, until it's completed. There's this kind of catharsis about the completion of an event. Wait, wait, wait, when it's not written

down, isn't that also angst? You know, because you haven't even started it. And it's gonna sit there bothering you until you've until you've at least written it down. And then it's like,

well, now it's in the system. Yeah, so so well, there's also an argument for the writing of it down, right, that that they've looked at the extent to which writing something down helps you realise there's a job that needs to be done. But I don't need to think about that now. So your focus can actually now attune to whatever it is you you happen to be doing at the moment, knowing that that job is parked somewhere. Whereas if you don't, your attentional focus is sort of split, if you keep it as a mental list, you know, when you've got this idea of, you know, I need to turn the iron off or something, it will sit there. And so there's this argument that writing lists is a way of reducing anxiety, but also, you know, because you the alternative is effectively a mental knot in your your handkerchief, which sits there and bothers you. But also that it's about commitment to the to the task and accountability to the task. And that when they've looked at people who write, you know, teams that write their goals down, they, you know, the studies they've done have shown it's more likely they will achieve those goals because they've they're effectively accountable for them and they've written them down. So it's not just about, okay, can I keep track of these things? There's, there seems to be more to the production of a to do list than than just that.

Jordan, how do you prioritise stuff? Because like I say, that's what I struggle with. I struggle with the thing with tasks that you sort of, you start it and you can kind of tick it off, but it's not completely finished. But also I struggle with priorities.

I think the key for me is not putting things off, like just doing the thing as quickly as possible. So just taking advantage, if you just if you know you have to do something, just not letting it linger and just go and do it.

JFDI. Yeah, I don't know.

I think that's the thing. If you put something off, then I feel like the chances of you doing it decrease dramatically. Okay, I mean, that's fine. But what about priorities?

I'm just going to link together what Chris has been saying, what Jordan said. Chris, obviously, the cognitive science is fairly clear that, you know, it is like in some sense better to write it down, like it's healthier in the way that you won't be badgered by your own subconscious. But being badgered by your subconscious is a way of getting stuff done. I feel like that's Jordan's strategy is to think, well, you know, actually, if I write this down, my brain will think I'm doing it. But actually, it's better for me to not do that, because then I'll actually do it instead of just like making a note to myself to do it later.

I also feel like you say you're tyrannized by your lists, to some extent. I also feel there is an element of creating a to do list, which is tyrannous, you know, they are by their nature Sisyphean, right? There's always the next thing on the list that I never finish my to do list, and it gives you this sense of like, you know, life being one long to do list with the last item being die, you know. And you keep putting it off. And so, you know, that sort of sense of constantly keeping track of what you've got to do, you know, there must be a freer and easier

prioritisation issue is an interesting one, because it's, it's, it's almost the question to me is what's the optimal number of things to be on your on your to do list? Because that is a question of prioritisation, right? So I think Nick has got himself to the stage where literally, you know, virtually everything that he actually has to do goes on a list. And, you know, that is clearly in itself stressful, right? Because you've got a million things on your list to do. And, and you've got to curate that list and maintain that list, which becomes a job in itself. But, you know, there is an argument, which, you know, some psychologists have argued, you know, the rule of three that a to do list should only ever have three things on it. But that to me feels I can remember three things, right? You know, it's like breathe, eat and, you know, sleep. I remember those things. But to me, it's more about when you get to the limits of, you know, that kind of the generation game thing of, you know, the cuddly toy and, you know, when it gets to the bounds of your ability to hold it in your head. Yeah, that's how many things you need on the list, but not absolutely everything. Yeah.

Listen, we need to draw to a conclusion soon-ish. I don't necessarily have a question. One thing I want to say, though, for me, this is... I've got a potential question. Great. I mean, we're not quite there yet, but pretty soon. But just to say this is important for me, actually, because I struggle with this kind of stuff. And, you know, I don't know if this is oversharing, but I recently went through quite a lengthy process at the end of which I was diagnosed with having ADD. OK, so I've officially, you know, been to a site, gone through a therapist and a psychiatrist. I could have told you that then. Well, here's the thing. For me, it was just a... I had not even, in the first minute of a therapy session, because I'd filled out information before, just saying, hey, this is who I am. And that's not why I was there. It was for other stuff, by the way. Well, actually, it was similar sort of stuff. Crazy, can we get you back to the subject?

He's lying on a couch at the moment. We're sat behind him.

But the point is I've gone through that and I've got attention deficit disorder. I don't have the hyperactivity. And this is what led me to that, actually, is I cannot get stuff done in my life, you know, and hopefully, you know, soon I will. Well, but don't forget that you are getting lots of stuff done. And the flip side of the zygonic effect is that you don't realise how much you've done, because once it's out of your head and off the to-do list, it literally gets deleted from your brain. And I find that sometimes you can have a day where you get to the end of it and you think, well, what have I done? I've done nothing. I haven't thought about anything. I haven't written anything. And then you look at all the emails you've sent and all the tasks you've done. And you're like, no, actually, this has actually been... Yeah, that was a great bath. No, but that, to me, is something, you know, being able to squeeze in time for a bath is an awesome win for me. So, you know, but of course, you don't remember that, you know. I think it reminds me of climbing a mountain, you know, where you are constantly looking at the slope ahead of you. And if you don't stop sometimes and turn around and say, wow, how high up I am, you know, you don't get a chance to enjoy the fruits of all of that effort. And I think you have many fruits that you should enjoy. First of all, wise words as ever from Nick Hare. But secondly, a nice mixture, mixing up of analogies there. Look, more or less, let's stop. Nick's got a question he wants to ask us. But before we do, anything anyone wants to say? Okay, Nick. Yeah. So what is the thing that has been on your to-do list for the longest? Wow. Okay. So if you've got, I mean, you may have something already, Nick. Yeah, well, I do have a few, like, eternal tasks, which generally are about... So I've been writing this paper for about three years now, which is about trying to create what I describe as a centrist manifesto. Basically, an argument that we should all be centrists and abandon the idea of political allegiances and all of that. And it's very well evidenced. It's chock full of footnotes and it's currently about two pages long. And I think if I get, if I, you know, it pops up on my to-do list and I then normally, I'm too busy to sit down and think about it. So I snooze it to, like, a week's time and it keeps cropping up. I mean, it's going to change the world, this thing. Yeah. I look forward to when it arrives. It has literally... Hardly anyone's tried centrism before. No, they have not in the way that I've got. I mean, this is, we're going to nail it once and for all. This is going to be the final statement for centrism. But I just never have time to sit down and actually, it requires thought. How long do you think this statement or mission is? I would be happy with 10 pages. You can do it, Nick. I'm thinking I'd push it through, I reckon, at some point. Maybe not this week, maybe next week. I know what's on my to-do list that's been there the longest and actually is a source of mental anguish, which is, I said brilliant, a way to get this stuff done is to put it on my calendar and have it repeating, which is basically exercise. So I have cycling and swimming and running on there, okay? And I've got them interspersed throughout the week and going into infinity and I just never bloody do them. And I just see them pop up. It just makes me feel really bad about myself, but I've not yet got around to organising myself to cancel them on my calendar. Yeah, and you don't want to. Put that on your to-do list.

Yeah, I need to put it on my to-do list, yeah. Let's have Jordan. I've got an injury that I've been carrying for a long time that requires surgery on my shoulder that I know I need to do, but I just haven't got around to it. You know you're living in a country with free healthcare and where it is.

You sound there like you're going to conduct the surgery yourself, just under local anaesthetics and lean over and get the scalpel out.

Yeah, well it might be a faster way of doing it if I do. Have you been to the GP about it? Yeah, yeah, I've had an MRI scan and I've just, I've done all the things leading up to the surgery. I just haven't done the surgery part.

Okay. But I will. But also you don't even need to do anything. You just need to say to someone I want to do it and they will sort out the rest, you know?

Maybe I need a to-do list. You need a to-do list, yeah.

Chris, you strike me as someone who just has done, you're a man, you're clearly a man who I can see that anything you have wanted to achieve in life and have written down, or you've then done it, yeah? So please don't disabuse me of this.

Yeah, well I wouldn't say that's true, but what I find difficult on to-do lists is that perpetual tasks, like you said, exercise, right? Well, when does that end? When do you get to scribble that one off? And this is one of the problems I think with to-do lists is I have sort of learning to surf down on my to-do list. Now I'm trying to do that, right? But it's comprised, you know, many different little bits that are required doing and it's going to be a kind of life's work. And it's, so that's been on my to-do list for a long time. I'm still trying to do it. I could probably do it a bit quicker, but it's still going to be a long time and I don't know what you do about those things.

Wouldn't a great footnote to this be that one day actually you can cross it off. You can say, I have learnt surf. Then you end up in the newspapers or drowning or getting bitten by a shark or something.

Well, then my last item is indeed ticked off on my life's to-do list.

All right, we'll stop there. As always, thanks for listening. If you have any thoughts or suggestions for topics, you can email us at podcast.alephinsights.com. We'd love to hear from you. Also, if you've enjoyed the podcast, Chris, what should you do?

You should write down on a list to subscribe or like us. You should.

You definitely should. Preferably both. Yeah.

And then do it immediately so you can cross it off.

Don't put it off. Don't put it off. Okay. Thanks as always for listening. I'm Fraser McGruer. We've been here with Jordan Fermanis, Chris Wragg and Nick Hare of Aleph Insights. Until next time. Goodbye.