In this episode of "The Life Shift Podcast," Meg Gluth shares her journey through life's challenges marked by anxiety, addiction, and personal loss. Meg's story is one of transformation, resilience, and introspection, highlighting her shift from societal expectations to personal fulfillment. The episode offers listeners an insightful exploration of the complexities of self-discovery and the strength found in embracing one's true identity.

Takeaways:

• A significant life change or loss often triggers the journey to sobriety.
• Finding support from others who understand your struggles can lead to healing.
• Embracing authenticity allows individuals to navigate through grief and emotional challenges.
• It’s essential to recognize the difference between physical sobriety and emotional sobriety.
• Alcohol can serve as a coping mechanism, but it ultimately leads to deeper issues.
• Acknowledging our shared human experiences can foster connection and understanding with others.

Societal Expectations and Identity

Meg discusses her upbringing in a culture of scarcity, where societal pressures significantly influenced her early life. Growing up in a small town, she faced the challenges of fitting into predefined roles. This section delves into the impact of external expectations on personal identity and the struggle to pursue a path aligned with one's true self, highlighting the courage needed to break free from societal constraints.

Overcoming Addiction and Anxiety

The episode provides a candid look at Meg's battle with anxiety and her reliance on alcohol as a coping mechanism. As a highly functioning alcoholic, Meg navigated the pressures of her professional and personal life. This takeaway emphasizes the importance of recognizing unhealthy coping strategies and the bravery required to address the underlying issues, serving as a cautionary tale about the dangers of masking emotions.

Path to Personal Fulfillment

Meg's journey evolves into a transformation narrative, shifting from a checklist-driven life to one focused on personal fulfillment. She underscores the importance of self-awareness and pursuing passions beyond traditional career success. This takeaway offers a compelling message about the ongoing journey to find joy and purpose, encouraging listeners to embrace change and seek fulfillment in all aspects of life.

Guest Bio

Megan Gluth is the owner and CEO of Catalynt Solutions, Inc., a leading US-based chemical distributor. Under her leadership, TRInternational was recognized as part of the 2023 Middle Market Fast 50 list. Megan was honored as one of the Business Journal’s Middle Market Fast 50 Leaders of 2023 and won the Ernst & Young Entrepreneur Of The Year® 2023 award. Her story is a testament to resilience and the critical importance of compassion and empathy in leadership.

Connect with Meg Gluth

• https://www.megangluth.com/
• https://www.linkedin.com/in/megan-gluth/

Resources: To listen in on more conversations about pivotal moments that changed lives forever, subscribe to "The Life Shift" on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate the show 5 stars and leave a review! ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️

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Meg: 00:00:41

Yeah, I mean, for me, there's a saying in recovery programs and sort of elsewhere in life that when the pain of your current circumstances exceeds the potential pain of the unknown, you're going to go there. So I was afraid of giving up drinking. You got to remember, this is my coping mechanism. Drinking forever. For as long as I can remember, I didn't know.

I couldn't imagine, like, going to a wedding without drinking. I couldn't imagine, like, camping without drinking, like, for me. And maybe a listener hears that and is like, well, that's ridiculous.

But for somebody who's got this as like a steady part of their life, and how I coped with, like, being in social situations, how I felt comfortable in my own skin, to take that away from me felt like, now what am I going to do? Like, this is the worst thing ever.

But I think that what started to happen is that I felt so miserable, that the miserable that I was feeling about myself was so overpowering that I was willing to risk the miserable of not knowing how to handle myself at a wedding or not knowing how to just socialize or, God forbid, like, deal with feeling like sort of a social outcast or anything, you know, anything like that, with feeling anything. I have an aunt and uncle. I'm still super, super close to them who had been sober for a really long time.

And I called them and I said, I have a problem and I need help.

Matt: 00:02:11

Today's guest is Meg Gluth Bohan.

In this episode, Meg opens up about her upbringing in a small town, which was marked by scarcity and these societal expectations that she didn't quite fit into, in her opinion. And we really talk about how these early experiences shaped her into the person that she is today.

We will explore her battle with an and addiction and how she navigated the pressures of being this highly functioning alcoholic in both her personal and professional life. But Meg's story isn't just about sobriety. It's also about grief.

She shares her journey through personal loss and the eventual path to self discovery and fulfillment. Her insights into embracing authenticity and finding joy beyond these conventional success metrics really offer invaluable lessons for us all.

There are multiple parts of Meg's story that I know will resonate with so many of you, because it really is just about this human journey and how we can move through really hard moments and pick ourselves back up and really remind ourselves that everything is going to be okay. So without further ado, here is my conversation with Meg Gluth Bohan. I'm Macgill Hooley.

And this is the Life Shift candid conversations about the pivotal moments that have changed lives forever. Hello, my friends. Welcome to the Life Shift podcast. I am sitting here with Meg. Hello, Meg.

Meg: 00:03:49

Hi, Matt.

Matt: 00:03:50

You are on the. Probably almost as far as you can go across the States from me right now.

Meg: 00:03:57

I think so. I think that this. If I were to fly to you, I think it might be the longest intercontinental flight we can do.

Matt: 00:04:03

So you're sitting in beautiful Seattle. Is it true that it's always kind of cloudy and rainy or are there nice days?

Meg: 00:04:10

That is not true at all. But if you're a jerk and you're looking to move here, then it's absolutely true.

Matt: 00:04:17

Terrible. Do not show up. No, we were just talking before recording. I have not been there yet. The closest I've been.

I had a friend that lived in Vancouver, Washington, and so, like, I'm making my way there.

Meg: 00:04:29

You are. You are.

Matt: 00:04:31

Well, thank you for wanting to be a part of the Life Shift podcast.

We were mentioning this before, but this journey I could never have imagined for myself two and a half years ago when I started it and really selfishly wanted to come on and kind of unpack my own baggage of my own Life Shift moment. And it just. It turns out that someone like me, that. I mean, I lost my mom when I was 8, and my life suddenly changed. My parents live states apart.

All these things were so different in my life. And 20 plus years of trying to grieve that journey was like a nightmare because I just didn't have the tools.

And now all these conversations that I get to have on the Life Shift podcast, a little portion of that kid in me gets healed in some way. And I just never could have imagined this journey. So thank you for being a piece of that healing puzzle.

Meg: 00:05:19

100%. Thanks for giving me the privilege.

Matt: 00:05:22

I just love it. And I love hearing people's stories, even if they're hard stories, because I think there are.

If we're lucky enough to get to a point of reflection, to be able to look back on these moments, there are some silver linings in even the hardest of moments and the things that we can learn and grow from. So I just. Just so honored that you want to be able to do that with me.

ittle bit about who meg is in: 2024

Meg: 00:05:53

Absolutely. Let me start with the easy part, like, who am I on paper? Because the rest of it, I think, is a. That's an ever evolving process. My name is Meg.

I am the owner and CEO of Catalent Solutions, which is a manufacturing and raw materials distribution company headquartered out of Seattle, Washington. I have my headquarters here in Seattle. I love the Pacific Northwest and I love to be outside year round, so it bodes well for me.

And I have a manufacturing facility in Chicago, so maybe a little bit less year round activity there. And I have a team of amazing people and an amazing business that spans the globe. Prior to doing this, I was a lawyer.

So I licensed in three states and one of which is in the Midwest where I went to college and law school and had that little part of my story and part of my identity as well, which actually rolled really well into becoming a businesswoman. I think that the pragmatism required of being an attorney has served me well and I bring a little of that with me.

I'm a mom, I have two daughters that I adore. And as noted, I like to be outside.

I like to engage with the world around me and most recently have really been sort of interacting with the question of what, what do I do outside of business and personal?

What do I do to sort of give back in the world and maybe, maybe move towards my fulfillment questions as much as I've moved towards those which are success questions.

Matt: 00:07:28

Yeah, no, that resonates so much. I think that I've in my 40s now have been kind of navigating that like what brings me joy, what are the things that really matter? And.

And maybe during this global pandemic, I think a lot of people have kind of had this certainly resurgence of like, oh, am I doing this because I want to? Or am I doing this because at some point in my journey of growing up, society told me that I had to do this, this and this.

Meg: 00:08:00

That's right.

Matt: 00:08:01

To be successful. I call it a checklist Life like I lived very much that. I think mine was a lot of trauma based. Losing a parent that young felt like abandonment.

So I always felt like if I'm not perfect and hit all the marks, my dad is also going to leave my grandmother, you know, like.

But I internalized that so much and my whole life was like, get good grades, go to the best college, get a degree, get another degree, get a good job, get a promotion. And then at 40 I was like, oh, I guess. And it coincided with the pandemic. I turned 40 during the pandemic. So brilliant.

It's like, yeah, time to trying to lean into things that really matter these days. So it sounds like you're on that upswing as well. 100% finding the fulfillment.

Do you still find that checkmark life important for you or is it more just like a means to an end? Now you have a successful going thing, you're going to keep that going?

Meg: 00:08:55

Yeah, I mean, I think when you get to a certain place in business, like you sort of can't quit until you really quit. Do you know what I mean?

So like as long as I'm engaged in this and as long as I'm committed to this, and I am, because I'm still passionate about this and I still really enjoy like the daily engagement of my work, as long as I'm doing that, then I think that does come with a certain amount of like sort of checklisty kind of stuff. Like there are metrics to hit.

There is a measure of what it is to have a successful going concern as a business and I have to do that and it's my responsibility to sort of lead us there and to strategize that and envision that. It does feel less like work most of the time for me now and I think part of that is maybe my age a little bit.

I too crossed the 40 year line, 40 yard line a few years ago.

And I mean that's not like old by any stretch and I'm not saying that, but I, but I do think that it, if I look at how I thought about my life in my 20s and even my 30s, like there is some amount of like settling down, like you get your kind of jitters out maybe. And I think I look at this more now as like, okay, wouldn't it be cool if we built this? Wouldn't it be cool if we made this acquisition?

Wouldn't it be cool if.

And then did so in the context of a successful for profit enterprise without feeling like I have this pressure to perform or prove myself that maybe I had when I was a little bit younger.

Matt: 00:10:25

So maybe more risks, more risk taking with things like that or because before maybe they're more calculated risks. Like I know there's an 80% chance that I'm going to be successful doing this, but maybe now it's like that would be fun to try.

Meg: 00:10:37

Yeah, I think the nature of the risk is a little different. Right. Like obviously I've shared, I came from a legal background so I had this way of being really measured and really methodical in risk.

Now I might say that my gut is something that I can lean on a little bit more and feel actually like that's its own legitimate thing, like it's its own data point that I find Absolutely paramount to any other.

Matt: 00:11:05

Yeah. And this is, this is. I mean, we're not even into your story yet.

But I'm wondering if having children also, seeing them grow, seeing them make decisions and learn different things, does that inspire you in different ways too? Because as a 20 year old, maybe you didn't have the same responsibilities or able to witness those kind of things.

Meg: 00:11:23

Thank God. Like, if there's a gratitude moment of my life, I'm like, thank God I wasn't a parent in my 20s. We'll get to that in my story.

But yeah, I mean, I look at my kids now like kids are so close to source still. I mean, my children are young, they're five and seven, and they're so close to what I call source.

But like that origination point of just kind of going where the wind blows them a little bit and what feels right and, and that can look a lot like impulsive emotion, reaction and all that kind of stuff. But for me, like, I'm like, oh, these kids, like, know what they feel. They know who they are, they know what makes them feel good.

They know what they're about, they know what they crave. They don't have this garbage around they're supposed to want or what everybody in the room thinks of them.

Like, there's none of that shit going on in my kids. And it's really inspiring for me and kind of gives me a chance to look at the world that way through those eyes again, I would imagine.

Matt: 00:12:17

And we all had it at one point, and then somewhere along the way we kind of lost it.

So maybe that's the perfect step into like, painting a picture of your story before your life shift moment of like, where you lost that and how do you find out again?

Meg: 00:12:32

You know, there's all these cool little like, memes and things like that that are like, do you remember when you lost your, you know, your childhood naivete and all that? And I really don't. I've always felt sort of like an old soul. And part of that, I think I grew up in poverty.

I grew up in a small town in, in rural Iowa. Cool place to be from. No, no disrespect there. I'm not throwing shade on anything, but. But we struggled and a lot of the people around us struggled.

And so there was sort of this atmosphere of like, scarcity and sort of never enough and, and that maybe that maybe that it would never be possible, you know, and so I remember just sort of the weight of that sort of being on me a lot and that Landed. And I feel like looking back on it, it landed on a lot of my peers. There was also a lack of what I'm going to call, like, proper coping mechanisms.

A lot of people that I witnessed. And then I participated in this myself, too. Like, we didn't. I didn't grow up in a culture. And this is no slam on my family, actually. We.

We were all part of a cultural system, sort of this really stoic Scandinavian breed of really not talking about how we felt or really identifying emotion. And people went to great lengths to cover that.

Matt: 00:13:53

I don't think that was just your cult. I mean, I feel like that was 80s, I think, so 90s. Yeah.

Meg: 00:13:58

Like, yeah. I mean, I'm no expert of the generation, but we just. No one talked about anything hard, you know, and if you did, you were like, that weird kid.

And we didn't have any of those.

Matt: 00:14:13

I was the kid with the dead mom. Like, I wasn't allowed to say anything. Yeah. So I totally understand. Like, you just don't have the tools. Like, nobody gave us those.

That permission slip.

Meg: 00:14:23

Not at all. But interestingly too, like, a really generous of spirit culture, too. Right.

Like, when somebody died in my community, like, the whole town showed up with, like, casseroles and, you know, just like, saturated fats and carbohydrates and like, it was really, really interesting how that worked, too. But one of the. One of the things about that I. I always phrase this as saying, like, if.

If you take the ACEs score, the adverse childhood experiences, I probably score pretty high on that. And. And so what happened as I grew up is that I had this inner life of really, like, what do I do with these emotions? What are emotions?

What am I feeling? A lot of, like, turmoil, discomfort in my own skin. And that manifested as I got older with a lot of, like, anxiety, social or otherwise.

A lot of being really unsure and not rooted at all in who I am and what am I about and what. I mean, if you can't say even, like, what you feel in a situation, it's really hard to then say who you are. And I definitely had a lot of that.

And I found alcohol to be such a, like, wonderful, soothing substance for me.

Matt: 00:15:32

Kind of push things down for sure.

Meg: 00:15:34

that I'm gay in rural Iowa in: 1990

Whatever, you know, like, when I figured this out and the culture is restrictive and I didn't know one person who was like, I, you know, like, I just is absolutely, like, Devastating for me. And so for me it was really important to cope and to have some outlet. And alcohol became that.

I graduated from high school and I went to college and I got kicked out of college like almost right away. Just partying, just being an irresponsible ass, you know what I mean? I'm just going to own it.

I'd love to sit here and blame whatever, but at the end of the day, that's on me. I couldn't cope and I didn't do well with that. I eventually went back to college and then got into law school.

And when I was in law school, I was halfway through my law school career when my partner, wife, marriage wasn't legal at that time, but we had a deeply committed relationship. I was diagnosed with ovarian cancer and she died soon after I became a licensed attorney and pretty young. I was young and so was she.

Matt: 00:16:59

And you weren't prepared for that either as far as like emotions and those kind of things, right? Because you had just been pushing those down.

Meg: 00:17:06

No, I didn't deal with anything that I had had the previous 20 some odd years, you know what I mean? So here I am in my late 20s and the only thing I know to do is to continue to drink.

And so I sort of, I look at this now and I'm like, well, that makes a ton of sense. Like that was a pretty obvious, like two plus two equals four. You did it before, that's how you're going to do it.

So life before some moment of transition looks a lot like somebody who's actually doing link really well, has a lot of potential, she's got an earnestly good heart, but a lot of stirred up garbage inside of her and not a lot of healthy outlet for that.

Matt: 00:17:47

Right? Yeah. I mean it feels very. I mean, I'm sorry that you had to experience that loss.

I know what, losing my mother suddenly and then later in life, losing my grandmother to cancer and watching that process, I know how devastating that drawn out process, even if it's a shorter drawn out process, just knowing that that's going to happen is so traumatic. And if we don't have the tools, like you probably didn't have the tools to process, it's. It's overwhelming.

It is because the only, like I feel like there's this performative nature, like we know how to be happy, we know how to be successful, we don't know how to do those other things.

We don't know how to grieve, we don't know how to be sad, maybe angry we could probably play that one because society thinks that those are the okay ones, but trying to mask those things can get really overwhelming.

Meg: 00:18:38

Yes.

Matt: 00:18:38

Did it, did it escalate things or did you just kind of stay on this steady path of like, push those down, keep performing, totally escalated moment.

Meg: 00:18:49

Also really like, okay, I. If you want to like, functioning. I was the definition, picture perfect definition of a functioning, highly functioning alcoholic.

Like, and here's the thing. That's what made it so hard for me to know that I had a problem. I didn't drink at work. I didn't drink before work. I didn't.

Like, I was so duty bound and so like rigid in an obligation. And that's part of the reason that I was suffering too. Right.

Like, I'm already trying to work off the sin of not marrying a man and being a farmer's wife here. You know what I mean? Like, I, like I had some, some acceleration behind that and I just really wanted to do well.

I also felt like even having been a lawyer at all was a gift given the fact that where you came from. Yeah. And, and how badly I had botched my earlier educational experiences. I mean, there was a certain amount of like, guilt motivation.

The problem for me is that I would lock that up and stuff it all in and perform and be highly effective. And then when, when game time was over, I'd just lose it. Like, I would just fall apart into this addiction.

Matt: 00:20:00

What did that look like? Just, I mean, I don't know. Like, if you're working till 7 o'clock, you're working on these cases, you're doing whatever, you go home.

What is, what does the in between time look like for someone that's highly functioning in that way where you don't connect the dots? Or maybe you did connect the dots, but you just suppressed that connection.

Meg: 00:20:18

It looks like a lot of binge drinking. I mean, every single weekend of my life looked, you know, utterly ridiculous and frankly, almost immem. Like not memorable. You know what I mean?

For me. And you spend every.

You know, for me it was like I'm getting up every Saturday morning wishing that Friday night never happened, making myself promises about what a better person I'm going to be, like all this kind of stuff, only to be drinking again by 11 at brunch and feeling, feeling like just a. What's wrong with me? Why am I a person that has like no ability to, to manage this?

Matt: 00:20:53

Because you were holding it together 12 hours of the day.

Meg: 00:20:56

That's right.

Matt: 00:20:56

Otherwise. Yeah, that's exhausting.

Meg: 00:20:59

But is you holding it together when you're pretending to. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know.

Matt: 00:21:03

It is. I would venture to say so. I mean, someone, like, had this addiction to grief depression. I feel like this.

This period of my twenties where I used my not being able to process the grief of losing my mom as, like, a crutch ye use. And it's exhausting because you're holding it together for everyone else. So I can kind of.

I think you are holding it together because you are performing. Everyone sees that you are successful. Everyone sees that you are meeting all the metrics and you're doing all the things. That's exhausting.

So I can imagine you can't be a full person when you get home because you're just exhausted.

Meg: 00:21:38

That's right. And I don't know if you have this experience or not, but grief reaches a point too, where, like, you can't feel sad because that's.

That just burns and it sucks and all of the negative emotions around that. But also there's a guilt that comes with feeling happy. Like, you truly are trapped at some point when you don't process and don't deal with grief.

And I was certainly.

Matt: 00:21:59

If you don't know how to do it.

Meg: 00:22:00

Yeah, that's right.

Matt: 00:22:02

Now I tell people, like, if there's a sad moment, like, or you're in grief stage and you happen to laugh, that's okay too.

Meg: 00:22:10

Right.

Matt: 00:22:10

Because you're human and, like, you're allowed to experience all. I just lost my dog recently. And, like, it hit me in ways that. I mean, I lost my mom. Like, I thought, like, I could. I could.

Lost my best friend slash grandmother, like, thought I could handle it. My dog, like.

Meg: 00:22:26

Yeah.

Matt: 00:22:27

And I had to give myself so much grace.

Meg: 00:22:29

Yeah.

Matt: 00:22:30

In the. If I was watching TV and I laughed about something, it's like. Or if I just had to break down, you know? And so I think you're right. You have the.

There is this weird space of, like, you feel like you have to be depressed but not too sad, but you can't also be happy.

Meg: 00:22:45

So also your depression and your sadness is a really good excuse.

You can get some miles on those tires while you're failing to show up when you said you would, or when you're, you know, acting a fool or whatever it is. Like, whatever drunken antics I participated in or whatever commitments I blew or whatever bad friend I was, like, whatever any of that was.

I had this amazing excuse. My wife died.

Matt: 00:23:12

Like, and everyone else would give you that excuse, too, because they probably didn't have the tools on how to help you help yourself.

Meg: 00:23:20

That's right.

Matt: 00:23:21

Because we're afraid of that. You know, walking up to someone and saying, hey, do you need something? Yeah, I'm here.

Meg: 00:23:29

No one wants to talk about it. They're freaked out about it. And no one wants to bug you because it's almost like you're this sort of wobbly vase on a table.

If they push you too hard, you might fall off and crack. And this is their problem then, and they don't want that.

Matt: 00:23:42

We're trained to have solutions, though.

It's just like the example of you said in your community when people died, people would come over with casseroles and things like that because that's something they can do. They don't want to talk you through it. They just want to bring you something so that you.

I mean, it's great, it's nice, it's kind and all that, but it's just something like we, as humans, we feel like I have to do something, so this is what I can do.

Meg: 00:24:05

That's right.

Matt: 00:24:06

That's right. And I would imagine it's the same when you're facing someone that's deeply in grief.

Also suppressing feelings from growing up, but also dealing with an addiction that stems from that.

You said there would be moments you would wake up on a Saturday and regret the night before, make promises to the world that you would change all these things. So somewhere in you, you knew that this was not the way that you should be processing things. True or.

Meg: 00:24:34

Yes.

Matt: 00:24:35

Okay.

Meg: 00:24:35

And I also knew that I'd lost control of it. Like, so there is a story that I would tell myself. And now I joke about it because I'm actually really open about this now.

Like, I don't have any tolerance for shame, mine or anyone else's on this. Like, I'm a human being having a human experience. But I used to tell myself that I was going to go, it's Friday night, the work week is done.

I'm going to go have one glass of wine. Matt, I've never had one glass of wine a day in my life. It's never happened. Never happened.

Matt: 00:25:06

Depends how big the glass is.

Meg: 00:25:07

That's right. And. And there's nobody who knew me that would ever participate in that theater either. Like, who would think that's true? So that's a little lie.

That's like the lie that starts the whole shebang for the weekend or maybe it's a week long vacation or, you know, whatever. But when you start lying to yourself, like that it corrodes you from the inside out.

And everything I would say to myself after that, this is only one glass of wine, like, everything after that was a lie too.

And when you wake up the next morning and you feel like complete shit and you know that you were going to end up there because you just, you always do and you wanted to do differently and you lied to yourself, knowing you're lying. Like, I mean, like, even if you're not a person that, like, I was, I didn't end up in jail. I didn't end up like, none of these things.

But, like, the degradation of my internal self respect is no different than someone who did.

Which is why when people I know end up in jail, you know, people I know from recovery and things like that, like, I don't judge them because the difference between me and them is just a couple of circumstances, but the way we feel inside is exactly the same.

Matt: 00:26:25

Yeah. How do you fight that when you, or do you, do you think that that daytime version of you is successful, happy those things, or are you kind of just.

Is that a lie to yourself as well because you're performing all day in this I'm fine kind of mood? Do you lie to yourself that that's the good side and there's another side that's not, or in those moments back.

Meg: 00:26:48

Then, I didn't see any separation. So I just felt like 100% of the time I'm a terrible person.

Even if I had a good, great week at work, successful, winning a trial, you know, whatever it is, like, I could never be truly happy because I was always like, but you're a liar. You know, like, but you, you can't, you don't have any willpower. I mean, now I know this to be different.

I know that again, I was a human having a human experience. I had some great moments and I had some bad moments. And none of those moments, good or bad, are 100% who I am.

But at the time, I didn't experience it that way. I felt like I had a lack of self respect.

Matt: 00:27:24

And that just grow. Does that grow? Does that snowball. Does that just.

Meg: 00:27:27

Yes.

Matt: 00:27:28

And then at what point does the snowball hit that wall, that metaphorical wall where it's like it's not rolling anymore? Is there, is there a max out point? You said you never got in trouble, if you will, like legally, which I guess is good as a lawyer.

But how does that, how does that progress to a point where, I mean, it seems like you feel differently these days.

Meg: 00:27:52

Yeah, I mean, for me, there's a saying in recovery programs and sort of elsewhere in life that when the pain of your current circumstances exceeds the potential pain of the unknown, you're going to go there. So I was afraid of giving up drinking. You got to remember, this is my coping mechanism. Drinking forever.

Matt: 00:28:14

A teen.

Meg: 00:28:15

Yeah. Like, for as long as I can remember, I didn't know. I couldn't imagine, like, going to a wedding without drinking.

I couldn't imagine, like, camping without drinking. Like, for me. And maybe a listener hears that and is like, well, that's ridiculous.

But for somebody who's got this as, like, a steady part of their life, and how I coped with, like, being in social situations, how I felt comfortable in my own skin, to take that away from me felt like, now what am I going to do? Like, this is the worst thing ever.

But I think that what started to happen is that I felt so miserable, that the miserable that I was feeling about myself was so overpowering that I was willing to risk the miserable of not knowing how to handle myself at a wedding or not knowing how to.

To socialize or, God forbid, like, deal with feeling, like sort of feeling a social outcast or anything, you know, anything like that with feeling anything. I have an aunt and uncle. I'm still super, super close to them, who had been sober for a really long time.

And I called them and I said, I have a problem and I need help. And they were like, duh. Like, you know, they'd seen it. Like, I wasn't telling anybody anything they didn't know, and they really helped me.

d my last drink in October of: 2011

But they were instrumental in saying, we're going to show you how people do this, and we're going to walk with you as you do it. And they normalize the experience of just not being good at it. And that was life changing. Yeah.

Matt: 00:29:58

They made you feel like you. You weren't alone in this journey.

Meg: 00:30:01

That's right.

Matt: 00:30:02

And if there was a misstep, it would also be okay.

Meg: 00:30:06

Yes.

Matt: 00:30:07

I mean, but, like, you reach out for help. Like, that's. That's huge. I would say that that's. That's a big, like, pat on the back. Like you were ready to do that and reach out. What did that take?

A lot. Did you have any false starts or anything like that? Or was that just one and done?

Meg: 00:30:24

I feel like I probably had a hundred false starts. Like, I Had a hundred times of telling myself I was going to make that phone call and I was going to do that.

And then it was like, I'll do that tomorrow. I'll do that.

Matt: 00:30:35

Was it always them? Were they always the call, always going to be them?

Meg: 00:30:39

I.

There are people in the world, and I guess this is a lesson I've learned and something now that, like, whatever else I do in my life, I want to be one of these people.

There are people in the world who, by their very energy, they emit a frequency of, you can come to me, however you are, whoever you are, and I'm going to be with you in that. I'm not going to judge you, and I'm not going to get up on a high horse and all this kind of stuff. And they just have always had that about them.

So it was always going to be them taking me. And also it had to be them. I needed to talk to somebody who had had the experience of doing what I was going to do.

And when somebody's been where you are, you know that they know how to get out. You also know they're not going to kick you while you're down laying there, because they've been there. And so, yeah, it was always going to be them.

Matt: 00:31:31

Well, I mean, I don't want to say this sounds terrible, but how lucky are you to have people like that that were models of comfort and success in the journey that you wanted to take? I mean, yes.

And good for you for reaching out, because I think that's probably one of the harder parts of that journey is to just make that call and be like, I can't do it. I could graduate law school. I could win all these cases. I could be successful. But I need your help on this.

Yeah, I need your help to become the full person that I want to be. The person that can feel all the things, whether they're good, bad, or indifferent. And did.

When did you start feeling those good, bad and indifferent, or allowing yourself or processing those. Was that like, a scary part of that journey? Because I can imagine the addiction itself was probably hard enough.

Meg: 00:32:24

You know, it's interesting because I. I always describe, like, my journey through recovery is sort of like the same thing as any educational journey.

Like, right away, you're at kindergarten. I just learned right away how to, like, how to go through a weekend without getting drunk. Like, baby steps. How do you wake up?

What do you do on Saturday if you're not at a bottomless mimosas brunch? You know, like, and. And so was Your life. That's right. What do you do on Friday after work if you're not going to happy hour with everybody?

Like, I didn't know Matt. I had no idea what to do on a Friday night after work. Not a clue. And so. Or if I was going to do it, it was going to involve alcohol. I loved hiking.

I liked kayaking. But we were going to take booze along. Right? Like, you know what I mean?

Like, it was just so it started like that, and then eventually you get these skills, and then you're working on the next one and the next one and the next one, and pretty soon you're in this graduate level program of learning the difference between physical sobriety and emotional sobriety and what it is to sit with a feeling, to have a feeling, come and dwell with you for a little bit and be present with you for a little bit, and you not make that mean anything other than I'm sad and just be with it until it leaves. And to feel, to really fully experience that. Like, now when I get sadness, I have time to look at what is the texture of this sadness?

What is this about? Like, I can be with that. I used to fear that so much. I would do anything to avoid it.

But we're talking about the better part of a decade or more to get to that place. For me, some people do it a lot faster, but I had to really work through that.

Matt: 00:34:08

Is it because of your aunt and uncle that your journey was like. I don't want to say the word linear, but like curriculum based in the way that you kind of describe this school?

Or is that just your nature of, like, milestone kind of person? Because I would imagine there's that 12 step. So I guess that's kind of like a curriculum, if you will.

Meg: 00:34:30

Yeah, it's both. So I'm. I'm naturally like your Type A, you know, I probably got a little OCD action going on here, you know.

Matt: 00:34:39

Checklist.

Meg: 00:34:40

Yeah. Yeah. You know, so I tend to be a person that tries to move linear through things.

And you and I both know that a lot of emotional process isn't at all linear. So that's its own head trip. But what was cool about the way they handled it? And then I did go to aa. You know, I'm not particularly endorsing any.

There's a million ways to get sober, and I think they're all valid.

Matt: 00:35:00

But what was cool about that works for you?

Meg: 00:35:02

That's right. What was cool about that for me is that it was like, you do this and then you do this and then you do this and then you do this.

And I needed that because I'm telling you, I didn't know what to do after I got off work on Friday. Okay, like, and so it started like that.

Then as you become more comfortable, as I became more comfortable with like myself alone in a space which was a shit show to get there then, then I can freestyle it a little bit. Maybe it's not as linear. Maybe today I will tell you that, you know, I've been present in this day today, in this business day.

Like I've had some just things that have been really angering to me. Like I'm not perfect. Like I'm going to regress to like, you know, coping with my anger in a way that I'm not super proud of.

But like the me today now will be like, oh, I recognized I'm off and it's time to get back. You know what I mean? And I can go and I can handle that in a different way. Not linear, but like aware. If that makes sense.

Matt: 00:36:01

Yeah, A self awareness is a, is a hard thing on both sides. If you don't have it, it's really difficult. But when you do have it, it's also really difficult because you're like, oh God, what did I just do?

Meg: 00:36:12

That's right.

Matt: 00:36:12

Because I'm a human, right? And I'm going to make every mistake in the book and you know, but I'm going to learn from those moments.

I'm thinking of your, your sobriety journey and do you think that the recovery for you has been will always be more physical or emotional?

Meg: 00:36:31

Emotional?

Matt: 00:36:32

Was there any physical challenges that you had to go through with? I mean, if your body was being fueled by said, I don't know for.

Meg: 00:36:41

So long, I remember. So alcohol is a poison. Okay. Like it's so interesting to me because like we live in a society where it's like a completely acceptable.

It is the only drug that feels unacceptable if you're not doing it right. But if you look at the science surrounding alcohol, like actually really hard on your body.

And even if you are not a person that's like in full, like they call them the dts, you know, like full physical withdrawal. Like I didn't realize like how tired I was. When you drink a lot, your body doesn't rest, you don't get good sleep.

I mean most people will tell you that if you drink tonight, you're not going to have the greatest night of sleep. Your body is working so hard overnight to filter that out. So tomorrow you Feel kind of wrecked.

Like I had months of just literally detoxing some of that from my system and feeling really like alcohol is a sugar. Turns out I really like. So then all of a sudden I was like, wanting to eat carbs all the time. It was like all this weird stuff.

Like there was a physiological component to that and the habitual, physical side. Like, you don't realize how comfortable you get picking something up and putting it to your mouth when you're sitting.

Matt: 00:37:51

Like a smoker, I would imagine.

Meg: 00:37:52

Yes. And so there was just a lot of that that I didn't become aware of until I was no longer doing it, you know, like where that came in.

But the bulk of my life work here. Like, the consistent to be always sober. I don't miss drinking anymore. Like, I don't think about it anymore. And in fact, the, the.

The demands on my life and where I'm at professionally and the responsibilities I have, like, I just, I don't have that. I can't do that. I need to work out every day. I'm a daily meditator.

Like, I do a lot of things to feed the machine here, to keep me at the performing the way I need to perform in my life and the way I want to. So I don't miss the alcohol.

My God, I miss the escape and the number of times that I will tell you to this day, 13 years past a drink, I just wish that I could have what it feels like to be after that, like, second glass of wine. I miss that. Matt, I'd be lying if I didn't say that I loved that feeling.

Matt: 00:38:49

What was that feeling for you?

Meg: 00:38:50

For me, that feeling was like the absolute, like, sigh. It was a giant sigh. I just feel, like, so relaxed, you know, and.

And I joke now with people who knew me when I drank and people who have helped me, you know, get sober, which is a huge team of angels. I always joke, like, man, I'm just going to go for that one glass of wine. And, you know, we all joke. Yeah, me too. You know, whatever. But it.

But I'm chasing that feeling. I teach yoga now. I love teaching yoga. I love, like, the feeling that I get from that.

But it's not as quick and instantaneous as pouring a glass of red wine.

Matt: 00:39:23

It's a lot harder too.

Meg: 00:39:24

It is. And so I miss that. I'd be lying if I didn't say that.

But knowing that I miss that and knowing that I want that feeling of like, oh, man, I really need to relax. Like, that's a skill. I Didn't have when I was a drinker.

Matt: 00:39:38

Yeah. You were just chasing that feeling, not knowing why. And now you have the ability to recognize it and then find potential substitutes, if you will.

Meg: 00:39:48

That's right.

Matt: 00:39:48

Even though yoga will take you a while to get there. Yeah, it's a lot more work. And then you got to take a shower after. And it's this whole.

Meg: 00:39:54

That's right.

Matt: 00:39:54

That goes along with it. Yeah.

No, I mean, I think it's really interesting from someone that has never had, like, a substance type addiction, but grief and bottling emotions will bring up all sorts of other addictions.

Meg: 00:40:07

That's right.

Matt: 00:40:07

Whether that's eating. I mean, I experienced disordered eating as a child because it was something I could control.

Meg: 00:40:13

That's right.

Matt: 00:40:14

You know, and I. All sorts of terrible things that I probably should never say out loud.

But it's, you know, it's those things we're looking for, that escape we're looking for. Or in some cases, it's the other side. Like, it sounds like you are looking to mask feeling. And then.

And then sometimes when you're in that grief journey, I don't know if, you know, if you had this when you were in your grief journey after you lost your wife, was this, like, seeking actual feeling?

Meg: 00:40:40

Yeah.

Matt: 00:40:41

Like, am I numb? Am I anything? Do I exist? And so it's just really.

I love that you say you're comfortable sharing the story and sharing how you feel and even admitting that you miss that feeling. Because there are other people out there that also miss that feeling, that also are thinking, I can't say this out loud.

People are going to think XYZ about me. And it's like, these are the stories that people need to be telling.

These are the stories that you, growing up in rural Iowa, needed to hear, that people were going to get through these things. They were going to get through the challenges. They were going to move through poverty and into something successful.

And then you could see that that was a possibility, and then you wouldn't have pushed. You know, it's like, thank you for just being open with this story, because I know it's like, not glamorous, right?

Meg: 00:41:31

No, not at all.

But here's the thing where I'm at in my life, like, I have a reasonable amount of success, and now then with that comes power, and there's a certain amount of like. So I have a duty to say that. I mean, I think we all do a little bit. Tell the truth. Tell the truth. Tell the truth.

Matt: 00:41:44

Because yourself too, for sure.

Meg: 00:41:46

But, like, you know, you said something just a little bit ago, like, all these things you'd never admit. Like, the truth is, like, we're not on the podcast. Yeah, Right. We all need to, like, understand. Like, this is a timeless concept.

Like, I was raised in the church, right? And there's this verse in the book of Ecclesiastes, which is an old, old book. Like, there's nothing new under the sun.

There's nothing that I'm dealing with that hasn't been dealt with by, like, a gazillion other people for millennia, right? Maybe their drug looked different. Maybe the way they made booze looked different. People have had sex addictions for millennia.

People have had food addictions for millennia. People have lied and didn't know why. Like, I mean, all of whatever your big ugly is, whatever mine is, like, somebody's done that.

And I feel like we got to just tell the truth. I like. I. Because it does two things. I feel like it frees me to say, you know, this happened. I did this. I'm not proud of it, but, like, it frees me.

And also the other side of that is it answers this, like, sacred obligation I have to free someone else. Because in my saying that, like, then somebody hears that, then they're not alone either, right?

Matt: 00:43:02

That's a. Permission. It is to be truthful. I mean, you and I, we grew up in a time period in which people didn't. It was only the good things that we shared.

It was only the successes, the promotions, the trophies, the this, that or the other. And we were not conditioned, most of us were not conditioned to feel comfortable saying that, like, today sucked.

Meg: 00:43:25

That's right.

Matt: 00:43:26

You know, and here. And that's okay. And, like, maybe tomorrow will be better, maybe it won't.

But, like, it's okay, because like you said, we're just, like, doing this human experiment here of, like, on this earth. We're just trying to, like, get through it. And to your point, probably the person next to you is feeling the same way.

Meg: 00:43:42

Don't you feel, though, a little bit, like, sometimes it's reminiscent? Like, I. I try not to engage all that much with social media, but, like, don't you feel like we're on that path again where, like, we.

Why are you showing me the highlight reel of your life? Like, we both know that's bullshit. You know what I mean?

Matt: 00:43:58

I don't do it. I tell people when I am a vulnerable, hot mess.

Meg: 00:44:05

Good.

Matt: 00:44:05

And for me, I do it the same reason you say that we should just tell the truth, because there is someone out there that will come across that post and will go, me too.

Meg: 00:44:18

Yeah.

Matt: 00:44:18

Thank you. You know, I've heard, I've heard from people that say, I'm not ready to share this publicly, but your post made me feel this way.

Meg: 00:44:28

Yeah, I love that.

Matt: 00:44:30

And to your point, it frees us. It's out there in the world. Also, I don't know about if this is true for you. Much scarier in my head than when I put it in paper or told somebody.

Meg: 00:44:41

Yes.

Matt: 00:44:42

Then you don't have to run from it anymore. It's already out there. So you kind of, you do, you free yourself and you process it out loud.

And the people that can handle that, that are around you, that are with those are your people. And if they can't handle you at your most truthful.

Meg: 00:44:57

That's right.

Matt: 00:44:58

They're not ready.

Meg: 00:44:59

That's right. It's beautiful that you're doing that because it's like that, that private message, like, that's the good stuff.

That person saying to you, like, you did something for me today, like that you can't, you can't beat that. That's life. That's.

Matt: 00:45:14

That's it right there, you know, And I think, and I don't know if you do this, if you think back to the younger version of yourself and had you come across someone like you now, or if, you know, if I was this 10 year old, a couple years removed from losing his mom and thinking like, oh crap, I'm supposed to be happy all the time. I can't make mistakes. Am I going to like make it through this? I'm pretending that everything's okay, but it's not.

And I saw someone else out there, maybe that was a little bit older, that was successful and had a dead parent. Like, maybe I would have been like, oh, release the shame.

You know, like, it felt like it took me till I was like 30 something to realize that I was letting that 8 year old in me make all the decisions. And I was like so ashamed to try to go to therapy.

And then I'm like, and I'm telling everyone in the world, just find a therapist that works for you, that fits your mold. It took me five people to find the right one, interview them, find the right person and get that crap out of your head and out of your heart.

Meg: 00:46:14

Exactly.

Matt: 00:46:15

So messy. I love that you're. I mean, thank you for telling this story.

I know you have multiple life shifts in your life and whatnot, but this is so important for people to hear because addiction is something it doesn't have to be alcohol. It doesn't have to be. It's just a mask. Right?

Meg: 00:46:32

I think we're all a little bit addicted. Like, this is my theory. Like, and then the question is just really, like, what are you aware that you're addicted to? Like, but I think we're all.

And maybe your addiction fluctuates throughout life and maybe it's something different. But maybe you're addicted to your own victim story. Maybe you're addicted like whatever it is in any given day. Like, ouch.

No, I mean, like, I've been there. Like, again, I got some miles on those tires. I got out of a lot of bad behavior with that.

Matt: 00:47:02

So that, you know, it's very easy. 100%. Yeah. No, I agree. Yeah. I say my grief journey was very much like, it was super sad.

And at one point I got really mad about it and then I was like, oh, oh, I can use this as an excuse. Like if something in a good way, like, if something good happens, oh, it's because she died.

If I do something wrong, then, well, I couldn't have been perfect because she died, you know, and it was like. But it is that once you get that self awareness enough, you're just like, oh, why did I. But you gotta forgive it and move.

Meg: 00:47:36

Through it and then you look at it and go, how can I use this to help somebody else?

Matt: 00:47:40

Like, fair.

Meg: 00:47:41

Because again, that's the, that's like the one good addiction I think, like to be like, wow, it feels like I have a five year old.

And she said to me that she started kindergarten and she, it's a big deal to be a kindergartner because she's in a mixed age classroom, the kind of this learning setting, right. So she's the oldest and I said, how was your day today, honey? And she's like, mom, I'm tired. I was really busy. I'm a helper.

And I was like, yeah, you are. Like, you're helping now. And she goes, I love helping people though. It just feels so good. And she didn't say it because she wanted like accolades.

She said it because she's five and that's how she felt. And I was like, oh my God, you're totally right. Like, be this way forever.

Matt: 00:48:19

How do I cultivate, right? How do I cultivate this to like stay around? No, I, I love that. That's. Kids are. If they can stay kids forever, wouldn't that be nice?

Or stay that feeling close to the source? Is that what you said?

Meg: 00:48:32

Yeah, they're close to source.

Matt: 00:48:34

I love that. Yeah. No, it's. If you. I keep thinking of this, like, version of you that was so, like, on the outside, successful.

From our eye, from a stranger's eyes. Like, when in her cases, she's. She's a lawyer. She's accomplished so much. And then you close your door at night and you're not great. Do you.

Do you look back and do you feel like a completely different person, or do you feel like a different version of yourself? Like, what does that reflection on that version of you look like in your head, intuitively?

Meg: 00:49:07

Like, I know that's still me. Right. We're always a. We're always, of course, an evolving thing, but I don't feel like I know her. Do you know what I mean?

Like, and maybe that's its own thing. Like, I. I don't. I'm not her anymore. We do get to change, Matt. We get to change and evolve and grow.

And so I don't disrespect her and I don't disown her. I understand that. She's part of me, but also, that's not who I am anymore. And that's okay, too.

Matt: 00:49:37

Yeah. But also, you got to make these intentional changes, too. Right. Like, I feel that must feel so rewarding in its own way.

Like, when you do have accomplishments now, you're like, yeah, like, I made this happen. It's not a crutch anymore. You don't have these other things, excuses. It's like, I did all this.

Meg: 00:49:59

Yeah. And the same is true with my mistakes. I can own those, too. And I don't have to.

Like, I don't have to feel like that's like some death nail to my, you know, my ability to succeed in life. Like, I can take both. That doesn't mean it's easy. That is not.

I don't want to come here and sit and tell people, like, oh, man, I just, you know, I hammer through everything.

Matt: 00:50:20

Life's perfect.

Meg: 00:50:21

Not at all. Not at all. I'm constantly learning how to do this.

The skill I have today is that there is a shorter space between me falling off awareness and coming back on. And as that space lengthens, it's a check engine light for me to go, hey, how you doing with your daily practices?

How are you doing with your, you know, you're being embodied and being aware of what's going on. And it's not a derailing. It's just like, hey, it's been busy. Why don't you come on back? You know? And that doesn't have to be a flogging moment.

It's just a. It's a thing. It's a thing to note and then to get back on.

Matt: 00:51:02

This is a weird question, but do you have any friends that were your friends then that are still your friends now?

Meg: 00:51:09

Very few. When you drink, your best friend is alcohol. And everybody else, sadly, is part of the cast and crew of that theater Sometimes.

And it is also true that alcoholics tend to hang out with other alcoholics. Just a sort of pragmatic thing. So a lot of the people that I hung out with then are still doing that and I can't go do that with them anymore. Matt.

A lot of the people that were friends with me then are friends with me now. But maybe we're in a different kind of friendship. Right. Maybe it's more of an acquaintanceship. And then there are a few people that are just.

It never mattered to them, you know, they could ride in either place. But that number is. We can count those people on one hand and I'm not using all the fingers.

Matt: 00:52:02

Well, I can imagine that for some, this new version of you, this fully self aware version of you that's like taking life in your own hands and kind of like navigating this ship. Wow, that was a lot of metaphors. I can imagine that might be a lot for some people too.

Meg: 00:52:19

Sure.

Matt: 00:52:19

That that knew the other version of you. Right.

Meg: 00:52:21

Yeah.

Matt: 00:52:22

And so it's. It's a lot harder to. To fully embrace someone that fully understands themselves.

Meg: 00:52:28

Yes.

Matt: 00:52:29

And it's a good thing when you do, but it's a lot harder. Right. Yeah. No, I, I love this for you. I love that you found this space and the self awareness and just sharing this journey.

Because you said, like you said someone could be listening now that might be on the precipice, might be in that snowball effect, might be putting the. Picking up the phone and then putting it down. I don't think people do that anymore.

But they're about to dial it on their cell phone and then they stop. Maybe they hear your story and they do call their aunt or uncle or whoever that is in their life and make that decision.

Meg: 00:53:01

I hope so. I'm rooting for them.

Matt: 00:53:04

Oh, and I'm rooting for the idea that we all just live in truth and like we start sharing more and just unburdening ourselves with the things that we probably don't need to hold on, shame to or for.

Meg: 00:53:17

Yes.

Matt: 00:53:19

Now I'm thinking I like to kind of wrap these conversations up and I'm wondering if if this version of Meg could go back to the Meg that was in rural Iowa, pushing down. I'm never going to get out of this. I need to start drinking. And anything.

Anything you would want to tell that younger version of you about this journey you're about to go on or things to think about along this journey, I.

Meg: 00:53:47

Would very simply say, keep going. And somebody has patented the term, I think. But it really does get better.

Matt: 00:53:54

It does.

Meg: 00:53:55

Those are super reassuring things to say to a kid. That's what I would say. Keep going. And it really does get better. Just trust me on that.

Matt: 00:54:02

Yeah. And I see you. Yeah, I see you. You. You are worthy of all the things. It's interesting to think back. I don't know if you think this way as well.

I think back, if this moment in my life didn't happen, I would not be the person that I am today. And the things that I know now and the people that I talk to and have this weird.

Gratefulness is the wrong word, but yeah, gratefulness for the experiences that happened because of my trauma. Do you feel the same? Like this journey, this alcohol addiction, and all these things were just part of getting you to this version of you?

Meg: 00:54:38

Yeah, all of it. I'm grateful for all of it. I thank all the teachers in my life, even the. Even the ones that were hard to learn from. I'm tough as nails, Matt.

I don't think that comes any other way. I'm grateful for that.

Matt: 00:54:53

Can't be taught that. No life teaches you that, but you're tough as nails. But also feel very welcoming and soft in the right spaces, too.

Meg: 00:55:03

I hope so. I mean, listen, that's my life goal. Like, that is the true life goal. I talk about that energy coming off of my aunt and uncle.

I met a bunch of people like them. I just. That's who I want to be when I grow up, is somebody who can be with somebody. And the people in the room know that.

Hey, wherever you're at, that's okay. That's okay. Just be cool. We're going to be all right. Like, that's a. That's what I aspire to do.

Matt: 00:55:30

I get that vibe from the long time that I've known you, this hour that we've had together. I do know you do put off that energy.

Meg: 00:55:39

Thank you.

Matt: 00:55:39

It's not anything you say. It's more the feeling that you provide. So, you know, I, too, am grateful that you've had this journey because it's brought you to this version.

It's like I said earlier, kind of heals a certain part of me by sharing these conversations, the things that we should be doing with the people around us that we just kind of wave to and don't say anything to, you know?

Meg: 00:56:02

Yeah. For sure.

Matt: 00:56:03

So healing. So if people want to, like, get in your space, maybe learn more about you.

Meg: 00:56:08

Yeah.

Matt: 00:56:09

Connect with you, tell you that you know your story mattered to them and changed something, how can they find you? What's the best way?

Meg: 00:56:16

Go through my website, www.megangluthbohan. all1word.com and start there. I will tell you, like, if you send me a private message on LinkedIn, I'm just not going to read it.

I get like a gazillion of those a day. But, but I do want to know you. I do want to hear who you are. So that's a great place to start. And I'm sure that'll be in your show notes too.

Matt: 00:56:38

Yeah, we'll definitely have the link directly for them so they can find it and don't have to spell it out and those things. So, yeah, please, if.

If something that, that Meg said today resonated with you as you're listening, please reach out and through her website, however that works for her, I think she would love to hear that.

And I think I can speak for both Meg and myself that if you know someone in your life that you think might like to hear this conversation, please share it with them. You never know what part of this conversation will hit someone else. So thank you for that.

Thank you for just being open and willing to have this conversation.

Meg: 00:57:13

Meg, thank you for the same. This has been great.

Matt: 00:57:17

Well, I appreciate you. I appreciate everyone listening.

And I think I'm just going to close off and say I will be back next week with a brand new episode of the Life Shift podcast. Thanks again. For more information, please visit www.thelifeshiftpodcast.com.