How much of your energy goes into being the version of yourself you think the room expects? For many senior leaders, that performance runs quietly in the background all day, and it is exhausting. You spend years climbing toward the room where the big decisions get made, only to arrive and quietly wonder whether the person doing the job is actually you.

This episode explores what changes when you stop managing a persona and start leading from who you already are.

My guest Erin Judge calls the hierarchy we all defer to the "fictional ladder," and once you see it that way, the distance between the newest person in the room and the most senior starts to look a lot smaller. What becomes possible when you trust that the thoughts in your own head are as worth saying as anyone else's?

We also explore a deceptively simple idea for handling feedback: rather than rebuilding yourself every time someone pushes back, you keep your essence and adjust the dial.

Erin Judge (Ngāti Tūwharetoa) has built her career inside some of New Zealand's most complex systems: child welfare, criminal justice, and sector-wide public reform. She came from a low socio-economic background, was the first in her family to go to university, and was admitted to the bar at 21. She went on to become Chief Legal Officer at Oranga Tamariki and helped establish the Government Legal Network. These days she works for herself, moving between Iwi, NGOs and the public sector, and the value she brings is holding several of those worlds at once and helping each one see where the other is coming from.

You'll learn:

• How to tell the difference between leading and managing, and why chasing the title is the wrong prize
• Why the newest person in the room might be the most valuable, and how to give them permission to speak
• How dialling your strengths up or down beats trying to become someone you're not
• Why every strength carries a shadow, and what it costs to hide behind the thing you're good at
• How understanding someone's motivation changes the way you influence them
• Why seeking out hard things, and views that rile you, builds the kind of resilience that lasts
• How to lead for impact that outlives your tenure, without needing the credit
• Why a breadth of experiences often matters more than deep technical expertise

Timestamps:

(05:03) - Journey to Authentic Leadership

(10:00) - Resilience Through Adversity

(25:41) - Understanding Perspectives and Influencing Change

(28:05) - The Duality of Superpowers

(35:18) - Leading vs Managing

(39:39) - Creating Lasting Impact Beyond Tenure

Other References

• Supernormal, by Meg Jay
• Range: Why Generalists Triumph in a Specialized World by David Epstein
• Proverb: planting trees whose shade you'll never sit in

You can find Erin at:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/erin-j-16001153

Check out my services and offerings https://www.digbyscott.com/

Subscribe to my newsletter https://www.digbyscott.com/subscribe

Follow me on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/digbyscott/

I would say it's not about you. Don't make it about yourself. You know, try and impact the people that are around you. As individuals, we can only have so much impact on the world. I'd much rather create the ripple that impacted a hundred people, that impacted a thousand people. But it's got nothing to do with us. We're just, you know, temporary messengers.

The only thing standing between you and your most effective leadership is the energy it costs you to be someone you're not.

Well this is something that's taken me years to work out and really own how to lead in my own way. And my guest today, Erin Judge, is a role model to help anyone accelerate the shift from imposter to authentic leader. Erin spent her career in some of New Zealand's most complex systems, child welfare, criminal justice, and sector-wide public reform. And throughout all of that, she's worked out what it means to lead authentically, without ego, without hierarchy, and for something that outlasts the role that you hold.

In this conversation we're covering conviction, identity, and what real impact looks like when you stop making it about yourself. Hi, I'm Digby Scott and this is Dig Deeper, a podcast where I have conversations with depth that will change the way you lead.

Hey Erin, welcome to the show. Good to have you here. Question. How would you describe what you're here to do on the planet? Just a small question to start with.

Yo to they

I love it. And I think about this question quite a lot. So for me, I think about justice, fairness, equity. I've been thinking about these things since I was about, I don't know, three years old. I've always just had that real sense of, you know, that's not fair. That doesn't feel right my whole life. So I've made a career and my whole personal life as well is actually just around the pursuit of justice.

The question that is begging to be asked is so where does that come from? In my research, do I read correctly that you wanted to set up a law firm or become a lawyer when you were like nine years old or something?

Yep, that's right. I don't know where that part came from because I didn't know any lawyers. I don't even know where I got the concept of law from, but somewhere within me, perhaps I was a lawyer in a past life or something, I had this idea that I wanted to be a lawyer. And then thankfully I got to do that. So strange to have to be born with that instinct, but for some reason I was.

So I'm not hearing, it was 'cause I had this role model and you know, they modelled, you know, the principles of justice, fairness and equity. It was just there.

Yeah, so I think it probably really kicked in when my brother was born when I was two and I felt this real sense of responsibility for him. And then a strange thing for a child to think, but also a greater sense of responsibility for making the world a good and fair place for all people who were vulnerable. He was vulnerable because he was a child. And I've just never lost that. And everything that's happened in my life has just really deepened that drive.

It started really close to home, as things often do. And I find it fascinating that that flame has continued to burn into the age and stage you're at now. Was it ever in doubt for you that this is a thing that was the thread of your life?

Not for a second. I am definitely am not a super organised person and I don't have a plan and I didn't have, you know, a 50 year plan that I'm tracking along. But the sense of what I want to do with my time has always been there. And I think it's deepened. I remember when I was at Oranga Tamariki, I was talking to my boss about an issue that I was grappling with. And he said to me, I bet nobody invites you to parties. And I said

Not the second time for sure, because this isn't a job for me. This isn't nine to five. This is what I think about at three AM. It's what I spend my time reading about. I wouldn't say it's all that I care about, but it's the bulk of what I care about.

Yeah, that distinction between kind of like a vocation and a job, right? It's this is the thing that I'm here to do in the planet. I'm glad you I asked you that question. Yeah. So I thought, what's the question I can start with, Erin here? So I'll ask a big chunky one like that. But you just went straight there. You knew it. But there's a difference between conviction and competence, right? So you can deeply believe this stuff, but you also got to grow the competence. Tell me about that journey, because I get the sense that.

It probably wasn't a straight line.

Absolutely not. So I didn't know anyone that had been to university. Nobody in my extended family had, you know, pursued higher education or anything like that. I certainly didn't have, you know, mentors or sponsors or scholarships or anything kind of setting me up for life. I did whip through law school and I did it very quickly because I needed to get through the other end and make some money.

And then when I was admitted to the bar, the judge said that he had done some research and he thought I was probably the youngest lawyer that had been admitted to the bar. I was 21 and that seemed pretty cool, but that was not my driver. I don't think I've had a gold medal in my life. I'm pretty sure I've never had a trophy. Like that's not me. I was just rushing through so that I could make some money. But the start of my career.

How old were you at the time?

It was difficult. I was very fortunate that I got an in with a ministry through a paper that I was doing at uni. But I felt like a fraud the entire time. I didn't know how to operate in the workplace. I didn't know what professional was. So I think my instinct being from Hastings, being from quite a low socioeconomic background, having always felt like an outsider in those, I guess, high end spaces.

My instinct was to be as different from myself as I could be. So I felt like I was acting all day, every day. The only thing that got me through was that I was naturally smart. So I did do a good job, despite the fact that it was really hard personally.

Can I just rewind? You'd say your instinct was to act, I can't remember exact words, but to be someone different. Exactly. What was that about?

Exactly. I had gone to school in Havelock North, but the people that I went to school with had a pretty different, not just life but intergenerational setup from what I had. And I think I learned pretty early on to just try and be a bit of a chameleon and fit into whatever space I was in.

What was the cost of that for you?

huge. Just exhaustion. When you're trying to be someone that you're not, your mind is running the entire time. Like who was I meant to be today? What's this persona meant to be wearing? What word would this person use in this situation? It is exhausting.

my God. Can you think of a specific story or time where you were really striving to fit in? Yeah, tell us about that.

Okay. One comes straight to mind, so this is from high school, so this is really gonna age me this story, but back in Havelock North in the nineties, the thing to wear were Barkers track pants, those horrible men's Barkers track pants, and an eartex and boat shoes. Now we did not have the money for Barkers track pants, but I had a lot of jobs cleaning.

plucking leaves off grapevines, babysitting. And so I eventually saved out the $115 required for these Barkers track pants. And then when mufti day came around at school, I was so excited because finally I was going to fit in with these track pants. But all I had to wear with them was this kind of striped polo shirt that I had from the op shop. And so I walked into school and one of the kind of classic mean girls just looked at me and said, nice fake airtext.

And my track pants meant nothing. All of that effort that I had put into, you know, trying to fit in had the counter effect. So I should have learned then, like, just give it up. You're not a boat shoes kind of gal. But unfortunately I didn't learn in that moment. I kept going.

What do you reckon that high school age version of Erin, what advice would they have loved to get from the current version of Erin?

Probably something like, Yep, you're a bit weird, but you know, you're cool. You're fine. Keep going. You'll be all right. Man, you should see your house when you're older. Man, you should see this cool job you're gonna have. You should see this husband that you're gonna have. You should see these amazing defense you're gonna have. Like, you're fine.

You'll be right. Just keep going. There is something to say you have to go through that. You can't just short circuit that stuff. You've got to learn the hard way about what you're not. And they're those blind alleys are the things that teach you the most. Yeah. That sounds like it's what's happened to you. You couldn't be the person you are now by not having experienced the stuff you'd experienced.

Right. definitely.

That's true. And I have worked with and come into contact with people that have never experienced hardship in life.

what do you notice?

That there's just a real lack of resilience. And when things go wrong, they fall apart. Whereas when things go wrong for me, I think, yeah, I know how to do this. I'll stay up with worse than this. This is fine. the manager didn't like the paper we wrote. Like, who cares? That's not even in my top million problems of this week. You know, with someone kind of falling apart in front of you, that that's the worst thing that's ever happened to them. So I'm really grateful for

Everything that has made me as resilient as I am.

I love that. And there's something about this idea of actually going and finding hard stuff. So I'd start my career as a chartered accountant. You did law. I did accounting. And I remember I did the three years and you become chartered and all of that. And then I went travelling because I thought this is not my path. I don't know what it is, but I need to go and explore the world. So I did that and I found myself I'd worked in a ski resort in Banff in Canada in the Rockies.

It was good fun. It was beautiful, you know, big party town and had a great time. But I found myself kind of a bit beige. I was like, life's pretty good. Now what do I do next after the ski season finished? And I thought, well, I could go and, you know, find something else cruisy to do. Or I could find out what I'm capable of. And I was a little bored, I think. And I ended up not seeking this out. It sort of showed up on my radar. I ended up

Doing a season of commercial salmon fishing off the west coast of Vancouver Island on the west coast of Canada. Hardest job to this day I've ever done. Three months living on a boat, 18 hour days catching fish. But there I found myself thinking at the time, if I can do this, I can do anything. You know, if I can go from chartered accounting to this and

learn how to do it and be good at it. Well, I can go anywhere. And that was, I think at some level I was looking to test myself. So I went and decided to do that. As opposed to adversity coming to me and then me having to deal with it. I kind of sorted it out. And I feel that's unusual.

There is, but thank goodness you did.

absolutely. Because I never went back to chart accounting. But it opened up the world because I was like, well, I can go any direction I want now because I know I can handle it, you know. And I get that sense with you too, that there's just in that story of you know that you know the manager doesn't like your report. Well, big deal. How have you built that? Do you have a an approach, a mantra, or how do you go about growing that sense of resilience?

It's happened slowly. So in a way I think of my life as kind of being the half where I was trying to fit in and trying to be someone I thought I wasn't. And then the second half where I was just myself. But it wasn't as stark as that. And the way that I actually, I guess, grew my confidence and leaned harder into myself was as I climbed the ladder, you know, the fictional ladder, and I was exposed to, you know, great leaders, chief executives.

ministers, judges, like there's people that are absolutely the top of their field. I could see that the thought patterns they were going through when they were making decisions or grappling with problems were the exact same process that I was going through in my head. So if I was in a big board meeting and there was some really difficult decision being made, I would think, you know, but we've really got to think about that trade-off and all, but that stakeholder's not going to like it. And then all of these thoughts that I had as a junior person.

I would hear coming out of the mouths of these brilliant leaders. And I realised that the gap between, you know, kind of junior and the absolute top of creme de la creme is not actually very large. And something about that, I guess, shifted my brain chemistry.

Tell us a little bit more. What happened when you started to shift that brain chemistry? Like how did you start to behave differently?

I just became more and more myself. So instead of thinking, you know, what would the chief legal officer say in this circumstance when I was the chief legal officer or what would a brilliant lawyer say in this circumstance? I just said what I thought and what I thought was good advice and what I believed to be true. And you know, you kind of dip your toe in the water of that and say, Well, I might say this thing, and it's probably a bit unhinged, and I'm not sure it's what they're expecting, but I'll just see what happens.

And what I found was that people really appreciated that. And over time I think I got a bit of a reputation for being the one who said the thing that nobody else would say, but everyone was thinking.

The elephant in the room stuff.

Yeah. In a very careful way.

Yeah, so thoughtful. And it also seemed to be serving a couple of purposes. One was serving the room, but it was also serving your own growth. It was serving you busting some myths in your own head, an imposter or whatever it was, right? There was like, let me just try this out. There's a couple of things here that coming up. One is you said the fictional ladder. I love that. Like this fictional ladder and then the fictional story between the bottom rung and the top rung and how small that is. Why do we call it a ladder? And how does that

Let it get in our way. 'Cause it now you get me thinking about it's like, Yeah, that's annoying.

It is so stupid. So what I have said in the last few roles that I've been in, where we've welcomed a new person into the team, particularly if they are the most junior person, is this is the most brilliant person in our team for at least the next six months because they don't buy into our systems, they haven't been burnt out, they can see the wood for the trees or whatever that's saying is. Like they can see things that we can't see anymore and we need to listen to them.

A new person, please tell us what you can see because we can't see it anymore. So, you know, having experience, being new, being a technical expert, being a jack of all trades, all of these things are so valuable. And I'm really passionate about people just finding what they're bringing to the table and then all coming together at the right time. I think that's how we solve, you know, these massive problems that are the ones that keep me awake most nights.

What you're saying is you need all voices around the table and you're giving permission for the newest person to play an equal role, as is just as valuable as everyone else.

Exactly. And it's not just their work experience that's valuable, it's their life experience. So when I helped establish the Government Legal Network and we were interviewing for the very first round of graduates, one of the biggest things we were testing was their life experience. And a question that we asked in every interview was what is the hardest thing you've ever been through and how did you get through it? Because yes, maybe they've only worked in an office for a week.

But if they have supported a family member through cancer or worked in the warehouse every Sunday all throughout their school, like they have experiences that are so valuable.

You know, there's that book Range by David Epstein. He talks about what we actually need is not the deep technical competence, but we need a range of experiences across a range of domains that then we can draw from because we have more experience to go, okay, yeah, I haven't seen this specific situation before, but I've seen this pattern before. Exactly. And I've had to do something similar that I reckon will work here.

And whenever I've hired people, I'm looking for that as well. Like, tell me about your life experience and your range. Tell me about your range. You remember when having gaps in your CV was a bad thing? You know, it was like, well, what happened in those two years? I used to work in recruitment, you know, and it was like, well, you clearly aren't committed to your career. Well, actually, no, I went and worked in an orphanage or I went and travelled in, you know, Central Africa and I learned how to meet different sorts, whatever it might be.

That's the stuff that I always found those folks were way more interesting, but way more capable.

Absolutely, because every time you go into a different space, and this is probably why I do change jobs quite often, you know, you take off the lens of the place that you're in and you put a new lens on. And it always blows my mind that no matter how much I think I'm immune to just becoming like sucked into the system that I'm working in, the day that I leave, I can see things that I couldn't see while I was part of the machine. So I love that. Just getting out of your career.

Going and working on your golf swing, like whatever it is, those things are so good for everything.

Right. How do you do that now? How do you structure your life to make sure that that's present there? That ability to step back from the system.

Well, I have my absolute dream job now. So I'm working for myself and I have a range of clients. So Iwi, NGO, public sector still. I don't have private sector, but every day I just get to take on and take off lenses all day. And the value that I bring is actually from holding those multiple portfolios at once. So being able to talk to someone in the public sector about what they can expect when they're engaging with Iwi on a matter.

And talking to Iwi and saying, this is what the Crown is going to say to you when they come. And this is how you might want to approach that. That is actually the value that I bring, is that I can see both sides and help people see where each other's coming from. And then in terms of things that aren't working, there's not very much of that. But I work from home, I go for lots of walks, practice yoga, got a home sauna. I've got a lot of good things going on to look after myself. So I'm living the absolute dream right now.

You are lighting up as you talk about it. A couple of things. I was curious about why not private sector. Is that a deliberate choice or is it a not yet thing? What's that about?

No, it's not deliberate. It's probably just not where my experience is. So I don't have the connections there. I probably have too much work on right now, but I can't imagine who from the private sector would reach out to me when I just don't have those relationships. At some point I would love that because I think if we want to solve inequity, child abuse, poverty, all of those things, in my mind.

EWE, community, public sector, private sector, philanthropy all have to come together. And there's a couple of lenses I don't know yet.

Yeah, yeah. So maybe that's in your future by the sounds of it. Yeah, you and I, yeah, we have our dream jobs. And I think we were talking offline about we've probably got some ADHD and we love to join dots that others don't see and all that stuff. A lot of people listening to this will be in a leadership role, management role, whatever it might be. They'll be on the payroll. So you've been there. How might you suggest someone in a role like that learns to be able to get perspective to get out of the system?

see the woods for the trees when you're in the system day to day.

It's has to be very intentional. But there are lots of things that we can do. So I've spent a lot of my time in my payroll jobs, spending time with people in other parts of the system. So if someone rings me and says, Hey, I've got this problem, can you talk to me about it? I'll say, Let's have a coffee and then I'll try and listen more than I speak. Because I really want to understand. Like let's say in my last role I was employed by the Ministry of Justice, but I worked with police a lot.

I really wanted to understand how was this problem manifesting for them? What was their motivation? What are they grappling with? What's the context in which they're operating? Because that was how I could give good advice by was by really understanding where other people can come from. And then I also just think seeking out voices and, you know, reading things from views that you know aren't going to align with your own views to really understand.

What is the counter to this? You know, there's nothing like the racist uncle at the barbecue to give you the other perspective of what you know, what do other people think about this situation?

I really like that. There's something about being okay with learning to be uncomfortable and seeking out that view that might just rile you, but not get riled, but just to go, huh, all right. What can I learn from this? I love that y you've got the learning orientation here.

I can understand almost any perspective. So I don't share most perspectives, but I really can understand them. And you know, people have the views that they do because of the life experiences that they have. So if you had only ever grown up as a farmer and Gore, and these are the people you are friends with, and this is the school that you went to, and these are the things you'd done in your life, and you know, you'd never left New Zealand or whatever, of course you were going to have different views to someone that

you know, grew up in a different country and has worked, you know, five different careers. Like that's just inevitable. That's just human nature. So I really love to understand why people think what they think. And then sometimes, you know, gently see if I can shift their thinking or throw a bit of a stone in there and see if it lands.

See what happens. How is that a superpower?

I think because I can really hear and understand people and I can very quickly assess their motivation. It doesn't mean I'm always right, but I think most of the time I'm pretty on the money. And if you understand where someone's coming from, let's say we're talking about the justice system and someone has the view that, you know, everyone should be locked up and the key thrown away. Like if you understand that the only experience of the justice system was that they have been burgled and it ruins their life and

then it had on all of these flow-on implications for them. Then as soon as you can understand where they're coming from, then you know how to communicate in a way that might help them see another perspective. So you know, I always think about things like saying to someone, you know, would you steal? No, no, of course not, I'd never steal. Well what if you were hungry? No, no, I would never steal, absolutely not. What if your kids were hungry and you had no other way of getting food? Maybe.

So yeah, you can always give people more rounded perspectives.

I really like that. It's a framework I use when I'm teaching leaders about the idea of influence. And I say there's three elements. There's me, message, and messenger. And me is actually not you. It's the audience. It's the person you're speaking with. That's me. And by even just calling me me, you're having to step into my shoes, my world, understand me, what drives me, what matters me, what shapes me, what I won't negotiate on, all of those things. Then there's

The messenger, which is you, as in the one who's maybe trying to understand and then maybe poke and influence. So how are you showing up? What's shaping you? What unconscious biases do you have? Understanding that. And then there's the message, which is well, what's the point that we're trying to land on together? Or what's the thing that's emerging through this dialogue, through this conversation? So me, message, messenger, they're all three elements at play.

And often I think we forget about the me. It was like, well, I've got my message and this is what they need to hear and they're wrong. I'm gonna show them that they're wrong, which is not a particularly strong way to influence. And what I'm hearing is you're embracing those three ideas, me, message, messenger.

And there's nothing better than when you come away from those conversations and you've changed your mind.

Absolutely. I think that's a rare perspective, Erin. There's nothing better when you walk away from conversation having changed your mind. I suspect you're in the minority with a lot of views. I think there's a lot of people who would say, No, no, I need to get my point heard. That's what success means to me.

For me, I'm not driven by me or my point. I'm driven by a few kind of key outcomes like equity. I can see multiple paths to get there. So if I'm trying to have a conversation with someone because I think that they can help ultimately drive equity, and then that path gets closed because they say, No, no, you're wrong. That system's never gonna work. And I think, they're right, that system is never going to work. Then I just immediately move to the next path.

You got a higher outcome in mind.

Absolutely. There's a moment in time that I've got to form a relationship with someone and challenge my own thinking and, you know, how cool. That path's gone. On to the next one. When I was the chief legal officer for Oranga Tamariki, I used to say to the senior leaders, you know, don't ask me if section thirteen applies. Tell me what you want to achieve and I will tell you five different ways to safely get there. And they'll all be legal and one of them will be quick and one of them will be cheap. And

One of them will be the right one and I'll try and push you, you know, down that one. But don't ask the narrow question. Just tell me where you're trying to get to and I will walk you through to get you to that place safely and legally.

Outcome over process, right? I want to come back to the superpowers thing. So I asked you, how is that a superpower? And you said, well, you know, I get to learn more and get the broader perspective, et cetera. You and I both think a little bit about the shadow side of what people are good at. Tell me about your thinking there, because I think this is a fascinating area. We're always trying to go, yeah, be good at that, but there's also a there's another side to superpowers.

Absolutely.

I do think about superpowers a lot and there's an amazing book. I can't remember the author off the top of my head, but the book is called Supernormal. And it's about how our formative years overdevelop parts of our brain. So there are things that I can do so well and so easily that I don't even really value them because they come so easily. And yet when I get in a lift and then I step out of the lift, I don't know which way to turn. Like I have no spatial awareness.

So there are parts that are so overdeveloped and then there are parts that are really undeveloped. And unfortunately for my TDL learning languages, the learning languages part is in the underdeveloped. But you know, when we talk about kind of performance and performance development plans and those kind of things, we always have the, you know, hey Jim or Jane, here's the things that you're good at and here's the things that you need to work on. And as humans, we really focus on those things that we need to work on.

And we just skip over those things that we're good at. My philosophy, and I think how I've moved from having almost no confidence, well, actually no confidence at all in my early career to being really comfortable with who I am now is by just leaning harder and harder into the things that I'm good at and not worrying about those other things. And then of course, the things that I'm not good at, the great news is there are.

Billions of people in the world and there's someone else that's good at that thing. And I will find that person and I'll say, you, you do that bit. I'm rubbish at that bit. And, you know, if you're rubbish at it, you probably don't like it. I'm rubbish at that thing and I do not like it. I'm going to double down on this thing that I'm good at.

So I want to hear there is no and own your awesomeness. Yeah, yeah. It's interesting because I was also thinking about how or when only doing that can limit you. I'll give you an example. I'd love to get your take on this. So last week I was thinking about how I'm really good and you picked up on this asking questions that get people to think. I'm really good at creating spaces where bringing people together.

To create immediate high trust environments. I'm really good at that. And I'm really good at listening and picking up themes and patterns in what people and groups are saying. They're things I've honed for years, and I reckon I've got some mastery in them. Yet I'm also confronted by something that this came across my radar the other day where I was like, yeah, and

What am I hiding behind? Well, how am I using these strengths to hide behind something else that could help me grow and be even more effective? So for I think specifically for my case, I've really had to learn in the last few years, including being a host on this podcast, doing exactly what I'm doing now, which is sharing my story and sharing my perspective and my viewpoints, not asking others what they think, which is I'm naturally good at doing.

develop the talent for it. But there's something about me hiding, I think, from, you know, putting my view out there in the world, because why do other people don't like it? That's my story. That's my situation. So there's this sort of overusing my superpowers because that's the safe place for me to play. What comes up at for you as I share that?

couple of things actually. So yes, I do think that you're very good at asking questions and holding space. And I like when you share your story. I think that that really adds value. What I think about is I guess the duality of the things that we are good at and the things that we think that we're not good at. So I think about things like being aggressive and assertive, which, you know, they're on the spectrum of being the same thing. But if you're considered assertive, people are like, great.

Let's get that assertive person to, you know, negotiate this contract for us. But if you're considered aggressive, then nobody wants to play with you. But they're the same thing, right? So I'm always thinking about how you dial things up and dial things down. And the story that comes to mind is I was in a meeting with a group of lit managers that I led, and we were debating something pretty tense.

And one of them got really aggressive and started like cross the line into being inappropriate. So I called the meeting to a halt. I said, No, you know, you've gone too far. This is behaviour is unacceptable. We are shutting this meeting. And John Doe, I'm gonna give you a call. We closed the meeting. I got on the phone to him and he started going off. And he said

well then, I'm just not going to share my views anymore. Like if that's what you want, if you just want someone timid, that's fine. Like that's what I'm gonna be, that's what I'm gonna be. And I said to this person, like your passion is the number one thing that I love about you. Like that is your strength, like that is who you are. I just need you to tone it down, like dial it down twenty percent and be more careful about you know when and how you are sharing that with people. But I think as humans, when we get negative feedback,

Or even if we, you know, are giving ourselves the feedback, our instinct is to throw that out. So if someone calls me aggressive, okay, well I'm just gonna sit there like a timid kitten in the corner for an hour on because I'm so scared that people are gonna continue to hold that view, instead of going, well, maybe I'll just move to the assertive end because everyone wants the assertive person in those circumstances.

I love that dial up, dial down. It's language I use a lot as well. It's not this or that. There's degrees. And so what you're doing is you're saying don't lose the essence of what you're about. Keep that, just moderate how it shows up.

It's all about balance.

That's a really powerful frame for feedback, isn't it? You know, it's like there's manaakitanga here, right? It's like you want to honour the essence of them. And I love how you pointed that out. Like, here is the core of what you're about. This is who you are. We don't want to lose that. We just need to channel it. It's that sort of language. Man, what if managers could just do a bit more of that sort of feedback giving?

And sometimes it's about context. Sometimes it's like that level of passion is fine when you're in a room with me. That level of passion is not fine when we are in a room with people that don't know you or when we're talking about this sensitive topic or whatever it may be. So

Me message, messenger right there, right? Know the me that's in front of you, right? Know the context that those me's are in. Adapt, think. Bring your messenger energy, but then think about what's going to serve the outcomes that we're here for and the people that wanna move towards where we want to all get to. There's a real nuance in that, I think. We've been talking sort of in this territory of

management and managing people and stuff. And I know you've been noodling on this idea of leading versus managing. Where's your head at with that stuff? I know it's an old argument, it's been around forever. What's the latest thinking from Erin Judge on this?

Well, I guess I think about it the most when I'm in I guess mentoring conversations or having a coffee with someone that's in the part of their that's on the invisible ladder, on the fictional ladder, but they're not on the rung that they want to be. So the conversation's normally something like, you know, I just really need to get into a leadership position or I really need people to see my leadership abilities and I need this promotion.

But the thing with leadership, and what I always say is, you know, being a manager and being a leader are not the same thing at all. You know, being a manager, you're managing people or you are managing projects or you are managing systems. And if you are a good manager, then you also happen to be a leader. But you can be a leader without being a manager. And that is how I've got every job that I've ever had is by being given something.

And then leading it, whether I was in a leadership role or not, you know, taking the little thing that I'm responsible for and really delivering on that thing and going above and beyond and working out who needs to be part of working on this thing and bringing them into the tent. So I always think you've got to be a leader first and demonstrate leadership with whatever responsibility you have. And then the management will come. But you can't chase that. That's not the prize. Like you can be a leader.

you know, in your family with your pets on the sports field, like that's not a job description.

If I was to be a fly on the wall and I was see Erin leading, or if for that matter, anyone leading, and I could go, okay, she's leading, she's not managing, what would be the two or three distinguishing features that would say, okay, she's leading there?

I'd be very adaptable depending on like just in line with our conversation, depending on where we are, who we're with, what the kaupapa is. So I'm very comfortable at, you know, being the person at the front saying, hey team, hey troops, this is what we're all working on. But I am equally comfortable being the person sitting there, you know, writing the bullet points for the person at the front, smiling at the person at the front, you know, cheering them on.

Like leadership I think is about being what the people around you need in that moment and that changes all the time.

Another guest, Christian Penny, is be coming on the podcast soon. We had a chat a while ago and he was saying actually the most effective leadership was when you look at a situation, you go, So who is the best person now to step in? And enabling that, that's a form of leadership. But then also the person to step in leads as well. It's not I'm the leader, so therefore I should do this. It's like, well, who is the best person? What form of leadership's required right now?

Absolutely.

And sometimes that means, you know, you're rolling up your sleeve and you're writing a document at three AM. And sometimes that means you're not even touching the document. You're not even reviewing the document. It's got nothing to do with you. You've put the right people in charge. You've made sure they've got what they need to do the job and you're leaving them to it. Like it just changes. And you have to be able to adapt.

You keep saying that word adapt, right? Adaptability and the questions around well, who, what's the role for me right now, what's the role required? How can I best contribute? All of that stuff.

And I think for me, always with those outcomes. So I'm always just chasing these same few prizes and my mind is constantly going, What is the best use for me in this day to help advance toward this goal? And maybe, you know, it's not even being in the room and I'm fine with that. I just want to deal with inequity and poverty and prison systems bursting at the seams. Like I wanna fix those things. And whatever role I can play in that day, I'm

Happy to play that role.

Wanna ask you a question about the version of Erin that is around in I don't know, fifty years time, right? And you're looking back over your life. You've had this deep conviction since you were two or three years old. And if you look back over the arc of your life, what do you want to be able to see and say around what's happened and your contribution?

You know, there's that saying around leaders don't ever sit in the shade of the tree that I've planted or something like that. And I think both fortunately and unfortunately, we will never understand our impact on the world. So I hope that I have created space for other people to step forward. I hope that I've created a ripple effect where I gave someone the confidence to do the cool thing that I could never do. I'm one of those people that's never satisfied. I'm always looking up the mountain.

to see how far we have left to climb. I never look down. So unfortunately I can't see a deathbed moment where I think, good one, Erin, you did enough. Are we thinking of those 10 things that I never quite got to? But I hope that I have some kind of impact so that all of the people that have got more years left than me can keep pedalling.

Let's check in in fifty years, shall we? Hopefully not that long. come on.

I don't think I'll be around. We'll see how much yoga I get in.

Yeah, true, right? Yeah. Is there anything we haven't touched on that you'd like to just kick around before we wrap up?

Think we've had a good go. What about you?

I wanted to ask you a little bit about this idea of lasting impact, because this is a theme I keep talking about on the podcast. And I reached out to you originally because I noticed you would finished up your formal role. You put a beautiful post on LinkedIn, your last kind of employed role, I suppose. We don't have a huge amount of time to dive into it today, but if you were to think about, I guess it's linking back into what we've just been talking about, the idea of leading from a place of creating lasting impact.

Yeah, if there was one piece of advice you might give to a leader who is looking to lead for impact beyond their tenure, what would you say to them?

I would say it's not about you. Don't make it about yourself. You know, try and impact the people that are around you. You know, as individuals, we can only have so much impact on the world. I'd much rather create the ripple that impacted a hundred people, that impacted a thousand people. But it's got nothing to do with us. We're just, you know, temporary messengers. Yep, that's right.

Yeah, doing our bit, right?

people find you, if they want to connect with you, how would they link in with you?

Well, I am linked on LinkedIn, as you said. That's pretty much it because I'm all about the work, so it's not I don't have any beautiful cooking to post on Instagram or anything like that.

Yeah, also. So find Erin Judge on LinkedIn. I just want to reflect out loud and I'll ask you the same question. So for me, what's got me thinking about this is this idea of dialing up and dialing down from your essence rather than wholesale change. I really like that. This idea that we are who we are who we are, right? We're we're not gonna change the fundamental wiring about who we are and what matters to us, but we can adapt.

And I think that nuancing is so powerful for people to think about. It's like, well, yeah, don't make me who I'm not. Just enable me to serve in a way that serves the context better. Let me think about that. So that's something that I'm taking away. What about you? What what have you been reminded of? What have you learned? What's come up for you in our chat?

One thing that is definitely underdeveloped in my brain is I don't have the frameworks to express the experiences that I've had. But as we've been talking, you have talked about a number of frameworks that you are already aware of and already applying your leadership training. So you've reminded me that it would be so great to have some more intelligent ways to frame these concepts than my war stories. So thank you. And

You gave me a great book recommendation that I will go and track down as well.

Good stuff. I reckon maybe we'll have to have a coffee and we can kick around frameworks. I geek on that stuff all the time. So we can do that. Yes. Yeah, all right. Happy to help. Hey Erin, so good. Thank you so much. We'll see you soon.

I need more framework.

Thanks, Digby.

You know, another idea that's just got me thinking from that conversation with Erin is the fictional ladder. This idea that we have a hierarchy, we have a ladder, we have

these made-up gaps between the people at the so-called top and the most junior people and even that language of senior juniors it's like we've all got something to bring and I love the way Erin gives permission for everyone to contribute just through the framing. You know the most valuable person in the room is our newest person. How cool is that? And I wanted to ask her, you know, what happens when people push back against that? Didn't get there. So curious about that. What have you experimented with?

If you're someone who's experienced and you want to invite other voices in, if you said something like that, what would happen? Something for you. Wondering what this has got you thinking? Love it if you think of someone else you think would value hearing the conversation between Erin and I. Love it who could share this episode. That would be brilliant. I'd be so grateful to you. Thank you again to Gabby White, my practice manager, for corralling me, herding me, like a cat.

getting me to the chair to have these conversations. I love these conversations. Also to Kane Power for making the audio sound brilliant. Thank you, mate. Until next time, I'm Digby Scott. This is Dig Deeper. Go well.