Is your bleeding heart holding you back from achieving financial freedom in your business? Whether you like it or not, your success—and your personal happiness—are tied to your money mindset. If you’re like most business owners, your relationship with money could use some work.

In today’s episode of Deeply Rested, I’m joined by Tiffany McLain, creator of Lean In. MAKE BANK., to help you heal your money mindset and build the business of your dreams.

You’ll learn: 

• How Tiffany’s bleeding heart and low fees inspired her to become a premium fee advocate
• 2 key questions to ask yourself before starting a second business (and avoid burnout)
• The truth about running two businesses—and the boundaries you need to protect your sanity
• Tiffany’s 4-step process to charge guilt-free premium fees so you can achieve financial freedom while doing more good in the world—Step #3 is GOLD!

If you want to stop overworking and undercharging, and finally run a business that gives you the financial freedom you deserve, this episode is for you.

Tiffany is humble, wise, and incredibly inspiring. I can’t wait for you to hear this conversation!

Connect with Tiffany

Get the Fun with Fees Calculator: https://leaninmakebank.com/fee-calculator/

Mentioned in this episode:

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Meagan

Hello, and welcome back to the Deeply Rested podcast. Is your bleeding heart, holding you back from achieving financial freedom in your business? Whether you like it or not the success of your business and your personal happiness depend on your money mindset. And if you're like most business owners, your relationship with money needs help.

Today's guest is licensed therapist and clinical fee strategist, Tiffany McLain. Tiffany is here to help us understand exactly what we need to do to heal our relationship with money so that we can become deeply rested while building the businesses of our dreams. Tiffany and I originally recorded this conversation for my fundraising event, The Rest and Success Code.

The four step process Tiffany shares in this interview is more important now than ever. So get comfortable and prepare to heal your money mindset with Tiffany McLain.

Tiffany, welcome. I am so happy that you are here.

Tiffany

Thank you. I am very excited that you invited me.

Maegan

Yes, well, I want to dive in and start our conversation today with some information about you. Because most of the people who follow you, Tiffany probably don't know that you are a person who needs a lot of downtime. It's easy, right? When we see people who are highly visible online to assume that they are high energy go-go-go hustle and grind, working 24/7. And something that I know about you from our relationship is that, that's actually not true. You're, you are someone who needs a lot of time for rest and moves at a slow pace sometimes. So tell me more about, you know who you actually are. Let's bust some Tiffany myths here.

Tiffany

I love that you started out with this. And for people listening, the the secret is, before we started, Megan said, is it still true for you that you need a lot of downtime? And I struggled even answering because I want to be the person who can go go go. Yeah, yeah. In a, I'm in therapy with an analyst, psycho analyst two times a week. And a few weeks back, I said to her, Oh, I'm finally, I think I have limits. And so really even acknowledging to myself that I cannot do everything, I can't be a partner, to my romantic partner, and do all the things in the household as a parent, the emotional labor, take care of my family, run, run a multiple six figure business and take care of myself. I want to believe I can do all of it. And the reality, especially over the past couple of years is not only can't I, but I don't want to. And so yeah, I actually need to rest, spend a lot of time with my kids, sleep a lot. And if I don't do those things, I can't function well.

Maegan

Unknown Speaker

Oh, what a great question. I'll go back even to before I knew I wanted to move beyond one on one therapy. When I was at my interview for grad school to be doing a clinical psychology program, I knew that I wanted a private practice. And I knew that I couldn't say I want to have a private practice. I felt like if I say that I'm already betraying the cause, or I'm not showing up.

Maegan

You hadn't even started the cause yet. What?

Tiffany

For community mental health, and I'm like, I, I know that I can't say I want to make money and I want to help people. That's how I want to do it. I had to come in and say, Oh, well, even playing myself small, Oh, you know, I really just want to get back in whatever it takes, and I don't, you know, I, maybe community mental health forever. That's what I felt like.

Maegan

Look at my bleeding heart. Look at it.

Tiffany

Exactly. You can see it coming through my shirt in this interview. Right? So even then, I felt like as a therapist, or somebody who wanted to help people, there was not space for me to be absolutely honest about that.

Maegan

Yeah.

Tiffany

As I moved into private practice, I think it, I'm not sure how it became clear to me, I started following different business people in the online space. I knew I had, you know why? Because I had the belief of, I have to keep my fees low, if that's what it takes to give back and really do this work. So in order to do private practice, in that way, I need another business on the side, that business is going to be the business because it's it's unethical and unfair to actually charge premium fees in private practice so that I forgot about that. But that's why I actually started my side business in the first place.

Maegan

Was your first side business, Hey Tiffany? Or was it something else?

Tiffany

I started, Hey Tiffany was the first, that was me really going into it. Before that I had a fantasy about doing psychoanalytic marketing, I'm really into psychoanalysis for people to know, that was a foundational belief that helped understanding that orientation really changed my life. So I was like, I want to help psychoanalysts market their practice better, because we need more people to know about this, I quickly realized that was a terrible idea. And so I created Hey Tiffany, because I knew I wanted to work with therapists. I made a choice. I'm going to work with therapists, something around their practices and marketing, but I don't know what, so let me just start a brand based on me. And then we'll see where it goes, as I learn more about who wants who I want to serve.

Maegan

That's so brilliant. And actually, it's my favorite thing about having a personal brand is you don't have to know exactly where you're going. Because the brand is, is you. So if the brand is you, it gets to pivot and evolve with you as you figure out who you are and what kind of work you want to do in the world over time. So what a great case study of the the evolution of a personal brand. I love that this side business started for you because you needed an avenue to make money, and you didn't see how that would be possible in your private practice. So it kind of started from a real place of scarcity.

Tiffany

Yeah. Absolutely.

Maegan

And over time it evolved into what it is today. I'm wondering, there's always this period for therapists who pivot and want to start something beyond one on one therapy, where we have our feet in, you know, two different ponds, right? We have one foot in our private practice, and we're still seeing therapy clients and running the private practice. And then we now have a foot in another pond, which is whatever our new businesses and our new venture, and that time, that transition time, we're straddling two businesses can be really challenging. And I'm just wondering for you, Tiffany, what was that like for you in the beginning to be splitting your time and attention between these two businesses?

Tiffany

Maegan

It is I mean, I don't know knowing you. I say yes, probably it would have.

Tiffany

Probably yes.

Maegan

I think that that is an important distinction, right? If you start a new business purely from a place of scarcity, and in there isn't any sort of fuel source of ambition or inspiration or seeing a bigger vision for your career, to back it up, you're gonna fizzle and burnout. Like, I think you have to have some, there has to be some other reason that you're pursuing a bigger path. Or else you just aren't going, you're not going to keep doing it. It's too much work.

Tiffany

That's true. That's absolutely right.

Maegan

So, okay, you're in private practice, you really believe you're going to be broke for the rest of your life, because bleeding heart, like that's the path. So you have to start another business to create wealth and abundance for yourself. So you start doing this other business, you create, Hey Tiffany, your personal brand, your dad says to you, you're crazy, you can't do both. And let me say something about that. I think most people who want to start another business don't have the luxury of completely shutting down their first business. Like I think about myself, you know, when I started building businesses beyond private practice, I was the sole breadwinner for my family. So it wasn't an option to shut down the private practice. If I could have done that I would have. If you're listening to this conversation, and you have that safety net and your life right now to like, shut down thing number one to start thing number two, like your, your path will be easier. But most of us don't. Most of us have to really strategically start the new project, and as that grows and becomes sustainable, then we can walk away from the work that's maybe not fueling us in the way that we need it to anymore. And that's what your journey looked like. It was five years of leaning in to Lean In, Make Bank growing that, reducing your therapy caseload. And then you arrived at the point where it made sense to walk away from therapy work and to pursue Lean In, Make Bank 100%. Am I tracking that correctly?

Tiffany

That's correct. Yes.

Maegan

So what would you say were some of the challenges you faced during those years when you were trying to run? Well, you weren't trying, when you were running both of those businesses simultaneously?

Tiffany

I continue to, it took me a long time to get clear about my fees. So the thing that I was teaching therapists, the reason I chose to focus on money in therapy and raising fees, is because that was a struggle that I wanted to understand. And I saw so many therapists struggling with it, one of the things that I became aware of is we don't actually have a limitless amount of time. And I think one of the things that therapists like to avoid is grief, loss, the reality of our limitations. And so we do keep our fees low or think we can both see people at a low fee and have infinite time to build another business on the side. So I continue to grapple with the real relational challenges of getting clear that I actually needed to make more money. I live in San Francisco, I looked this up recently, I believe the poverty line for an individual in San Francisco is $85,000.

Maegan

Wow. Wow.

Tiffany

That's the poverty line! So some fantasy of like, I can charge 150 per session and live in the city I've chosen to live in is actually impossible. So for me the continued struggle of I love these clients I'm working with, I want to keep doing this work, and they're not going to pay me these, folks I'm working with are not going to pay me $2,000 an hour. And in fact, doing one to one work at $2,000 an hour, I'm still not gonna be able to make the impact I want to make. So the first the biggest obstacle was my continued internal conflict around what does it mean to actually charge premium fees, create something that makes a lot of money? Am I allowed to do that? And what's the cost some fantasy costs back to your idea of scarcity? The second one is over the course of that five years, I went from having a private practice and having a little Lean In, Make Bank on the side or Hey Tiffany on the side and having one child and then just this year, a second child and the reality of time it's even more, it's crystal clear. I literally do not have the time to do all of the things. And so having to make a choice, I have to make a choice about what kind of life I want to have and what that costs, and then make decisions based on that.

Maegan

I like how you're naming two variables here. One variable, thinking about the one on one therapy, private practice business, one variable is can I make the amount of money I need to make to live the life that I want to live? No, there was there was no scenario in which that math would add up for you. And the second variable that I I heard you name is impact. And I think that's really important, too, is if you wanted a greater impact, and that the impact you wanted, you couldn't achieve in a one on one private practice setting. Tell me more about like, where impact played into this for you?

Tiffany

Maegan

Tiffany

Interesting. I'm going to, because I eventually went into Lean in, Make Bank, I'm going to start the other way. What was the, what's the cost on my clients? And I think a lot of therapists who are doing one to one work can relate to this. I love, this still to this day, the clients I was working with, I miss them, right? I think about them. And so for me to think about, well, what does it mean to go into this, put all my eggs in the scalable business basket meant a lot of grief and loss and sadness. First to make the decision, then to communicate that decision. And then I continued to work with my clients for six more months, as we transitioned them. It was a. it was a. it's like a death. I wanted that those relationships and the work and who they were going to become that I was going to miss out on. So I'll say the first thing is, it's not, therapists are thinking about making this leap. And they're saying it's too hard or I can never be the one to do it. It is hard. It's crushing and it's not easy. So if even people see me out there talking about having made the switch, there was much sadness, tears, processing of what that meant. It was not an easy process. So I'll start that way. On the other hand, thinking about the sacrifices that were made to the idea of Lean In, Make Bank because it was still so small. And I was, you know, taking little launches. I couldn't learn what I needed to learn to scale the business, I didn't have time to even learn the what does it take to grow a business to really be able to help my students? At the time when I started LIMB, I was running it a few times a year. And I'd really go all in. And that was hard work. I'm having 40 people in the cohort, meeting with them regularly, following all of their journeys. As one person, I didn't have the systems or processes in place to also show up for those students in the way I wanted. I did, but I couldn't do it twice a year, I couldn't do it month after month, week after week. So to really show up for these therapists who are having life changing moments as they understand how to charge premium fees, how they understand how to put in clearer boundaries, getting real about time and having to make choices that are difficult. In order for me to really show up and do that work, I needed a team, I needed systems, I need to understand what it meant to actually build a business. All of that took time. And if I wasn't spending that time, I couldn't actually help my therapists in the way I ultimately wanted to either.

I mean, that's like, a five minute masterclass what you just said, right? Accept that this is going to be hard work, accept that there is going to be a ton of grief and sadness that you have to feel, and accept that you can't do it on your own. Right, you need a team, you need systems, if you want to build something scalable, so that your impact grows and expands. You need to accept that you will do that with a team in place, you will not do that by yourself, and accept that all of this takes years to unfold. And I think that's another place a lot of people get tripped up is they want really fast results. They want to decide today that they are not going to be therapist anymore and expect at this time next year that they've got, you know, a multiple six figure business that pays the bills. And no, it doesn't work that way, like this process takes time. And yeah, just just wanted to reflect that back, Tiffany because I feel like you just listed off like all of the truths about making this transition from private practice to a next level business.

Let me also be clear about one more thing. I don't know, I don't know why this was the case. But I also knew that I was not going to burn myself out. Community Mental Health was tons of hours, grad school is a ton of hours, postgraduate trading, just working so many hours in order to get licensed. And I would look around and see my friends who I really looked up to who had online businesses and private practices, or even one or the other, just working all the time, whether they had kids or not, constantly. And so I also my, again, I don't know why this was, but I always made an intentional choice. I'm not going to do that. So even if my business is slow, I cannot be on Facebook, Instagram, Tik Tok, Twitter, whatever, I cannot be on all those places. I know that about myself. And I don't want to. So I'm actually going to sit back and maybe take a month or two months or a quarter of just doing one thing, while I learn how can I scale up while working from nine to three. And having that nine to three also include lunch and a walk. I'm not going to ever, I'm not going to be a 5am to 8pm business because I know that's actually not a scalable business, a scalable business to me meant, how do I learn to spend this much time and energy so that this business will be able to be sustained for 1, 5, 10, 15 years?

Maegan

Beautiful. I think that that is the lesson if you are listening to this and you're thinking about starting a new business or expanding beyond one to one therapy, set your time boundaries early and protect them with your life. You know, it's, that's it.

Tiffany

Because it is your life.

Maegan

It literally is your life. Yeah, exactly. It's one of my favorite books is Essentialism. I don't know if you've read it. There's a quote from Essentialism. I'm sure I'm butchering it, but he says something along the lines of if you don't prioritize your life, someone else will prioritize it for you. And that just like, made my brain explode when I read it and just put so many things into perspective. And I feel like what you're saying is how we protect ourselves from living a life that is dominated by other people's expectations and needs. If you want to grow your business, you can totally do it. And you can do it as a highly sensitive person. You can do it if you have very low levels of energy, if you set boundaries early and often and hold them and protect them around your time and energy. So I love what you said, I wanted to do everything. But I would do it between nine and three and if that meant that it unfolded and evolved slowly, so be it. That's what it meant. And here you are today with the Lean In, Make Bank Academy and it's a brilliant program that so many therapists have experienced and know about. So you are just, I feel such a beautiful testament, Tiffany, to what you can accomplish, while also prioritizing your own personal needs. And I really appreciate you sharing these really personal aspects of your journey with us today. It's really great.

Tiffany

My pleasure. I'll add one more piece. Yeah. Which is when when we as therapists are doing all of the things and when I was doing all of the things, the fact of the matter is 97% of those things are unnecessary. And we're doing them to fill up the time because we're afraid of doing the hardest things.

Maegan

Yeah.

Tiffany

When thinking about what it took to actually go all in on the Lean In, Make Bank Academy, I realized, actually just holding a boundary exhausted me. Making a decision that was going to impact another person, I processed it for hours in therapy, hours with my business besties, hours with my business mentors and coaches, by the way, those people all cost a lot of money, except for friends. So if I said, Okay, I'm gonna make this hire, or I gotta let this person go, that was hours of energy. So if you're imagining, like, I'm gonna answer all these emails today, that's not actually the thing that's gonna make your business move forward, or I'm gonna be on Instagram and respond to everybody, what's gonna move your business forward is making hard decisions that force you to grow and that are scary and anxiety provoking. And those things need a lot of space to be able to actually move forward and do them.

Maegan

Tiffany

Absolutely. That's right. Yeah.

Maegan

Okay. Okay, let's pivot. And let's talk about some money. Yeah, I am so excited to talk about money, because, for me, bottom line, I want business owners to be deeply rested. And I want them to see that they can absolutely be deeply rested without sacrificing business growth without sacrificing profitability. But they can only do it if they're brave enough to charge premium fees. What are your thoughts about that idea Tiffany?

Tiffany

You're absolutely on with this. And I think you said this, but I'll, I'll reinforce what you've already said, because I know you do this work, you actually cannot build a sustainable, long term business, without it being profitable. And without you being deeply rested, you cannot do it. So it's not like a hey, I want to create this business, and I want to have time to rest and I want to have profit, you actually cannot create that business without being deeply rested and without having a profitable business.

Maegan

Yeah, it's the money. I mean, every, everything, all of the wisdom you've shared in the conversation today is vitally important. You need space for deep work, you need to accept that this process will create deep, painful emotional experiences for you. You need support, you need a team, you need systems. All of that is true. But you can't do any of it if you're not charging premium fees that are commensurate with what your business needs to thrive, and what you personally need financially to live a comfortable and abundant life. It really, it's like the fee is a stopgap you know, if you allow yourself to charge what you need to charge, everything else can flow organically and beautifully and easily from that point. But if you are fighting with yourself around money, and you're not charging enough to create space and abundance in your business, everything else will be a challenge. And yet people still struggle so profoundly with these and with money. So please tell me fee goddess Tiffany McLain, why are people struggling so so desperately to charge what they need to charge to run thriving businesses?

Tiffany

Holy mackerel. Money is a symbol. We know that, I mean, if we actually let ourselves know that, we know that money is a symbol for attachment, loss, grief, a death, relationship, everything having to do with human relationships is projected onto and into money. So going back to this idea of you have to charge premium fees in order to have everything else fall into place. One of the things that I don't chuckle at it, I don't know if the if I'm kind of sad, a sad chuckle, like a sad clown chuckle. When therapists started our program, Lean In, Make Bank and they think that instead of raising my fee, I'm gonna start a second business, and that's gonna be where I have my money. And meanwhile, they're seeing 30 clients at you know, $25 per session with the fantasy that the way they're going to get out of that is by creating a second business.

Maegan

Yeah, so I'm so exhausted, so what I'm gonna do, what I'm gonna do, so I'm not tired anymore, is keep seeing 30 clients a week, and then I'm going to add a whole nother business on top of that, and give me six months, I'm gonna feel much better and you and I are both laughing like, No, that is not going to happen for you, you are about to kill yourself.

Tiffany

It's absolutely right, there was a fantasy that I'm going to I'm going to create a course about boundaries, put it up online. And that course is going to be the thing that saved me from the inability and the refusal to set boundaries right here in my business right now. So one of the things when we think about premium fees, those are actually, it's just a symbol. Premium fees are a symbol of getting clear about your reality, even though it's terrifying to see, I have student loans I'm not paying off, I never go on vacation. And if I do, I'm terrified about missing out on the income. If my partner died, which happens, if I have a partner at all, if my partner dies, I can't support me or the kids. Like if we're not looking at all of that when we're charging $78 per session. And so number one premium piece is about getting real about what does it mean to actually take care of oneself and one's family? And how much does that cost? What does it mean to look at these clients who I love? Or who I may be envious of and resentful towards? What does it mean to them to look at them and say, here's what I'm doing with my team moving forward. And that may mean we don't work together and have them say, You're abandoning me? You're doing just like my family did? How could you do it? You're greedy and selfish. I loved you, and you don't love me back? Oh, my God. Premium fees means actually looking at all of that stuff in the face and doing the internal work to do it anyway, and see who you are and what you become on the other side of that, once you've learned those lessons. Yes, we are going to be able to do, create a scalable business, but you cannot...

Maegan

You can do anything.

Tiffany

Absolutely. You can do anything. Yeah, we had somebody recently who graduated from our program, she'll be in an upcoming episode of the Money Sessions, mom of three, single mom of three, who had historically been in relationships that were problematic, but she needed the income and the stability, was part of her calculus, like these relationships don't feel great, but I need help with my kids. She was able to make her own money through going through the process of Lean In, Make Bank. She said at the end, I get goosebumps thinking about it. Because again, it's not about money. She said, Tiffany, I got out of those relationships. And I'm single and I'm gonna stay single because I know I can pay for my own insurance and I can take care of my kids with my own money. I am no longer in these other relationships. Story after story after story of freedom. Yes, that's right, freedom. I'm rubbing, for those who can't see I'm rubbing my arm. Yeah, because it gives me goosebumps every time I hear these stories.

Maegan

It's really profound, just to name and I love how how simple you're making this, like people are afraid to charge premium fees, because it's not really about the fee. It's that simple. And then it's like super complicated at the same time, but at least we're saying it in one sentence, right? It's like you're not actually, it's not the money. It's like Let's stop talking about the money and let's start talking about what this symbolizes for you and what changing your relationship with money will mean for your life, for your business for your relationships, because I agree when you start, when I started thinking about money in a different way, everything in my life changed. And I do think it's terrifying. And we're therapists we know this right? It's terrifying to step into a new space in our lives when we don't know what all will change as a result of putting on a new skin suit. Right? If I put on like the confident unapologetic, you know, fiercely protective of my boundaries and my, and my needs, if I like put that on, what else is going to change? It's really scary.

Tiffany

Yeah, absolutely.

Maegan

And if you want to grow your business, if you're ambitious, if you have visions for creating exponential growth or you know, expanding your impact, you can't do any of it, if you don't want to burn out without first addressing your relationship with money, and figuring out what you need to do, to charge premium fees for the work that you are doing in the world.

Tiffany

Absolutely. And the last I looked 75% of Americans decided money as their number one stressor. So even if you say, I'm going to do it, I'm going to burn out because I'm really committed to the work, if you are not dealing with your money stuff, you are absolutely placing a limit on your ability to help your clients grow. You are limiting their growth, by virtue of not doing your own money work full stop period. You are doing them a disservice as their therapist, and they should go somewhere else, because you're missing a huge swath of the work by not actually addressing your money stuff and what it means because you can't help your clients do the same.

Maegan

So how do you recommend therapists do this work?

Tiffany

Sure, four things. There are four things that I think about are essential, and that I've seen over the years have been essential to therapists being able to do this work. One community. You have to have therapists around you who are struggling in the way you are and also moving through it. You must know people who are able to do it both at your level and beyond in order for you to be able to succeed. You can't do it if you're surrounded by scarcity driven, you got to be on insurance, you got to keep your fees low people. That's number one. Number two, back to this.. Do you have a question about that before I go forward?

Maegan

I don't I'm just writing it down to soak it in. I just want to write it down.

Tiffany

Yeah, community is every, you can't do any of it if you don't have community.

Maegan

I totally agree. And I would say that is true, too for anyone who wants to build a business beyond private practice, like you have to be in community with other- it can be therapists, but doesn't have to be. It could be just other people who are pivoting from this very kind of small and insular business model to putting themselves out there in the world in a bigger way. If you don't have other people around you who are experiencing that same thing, I don't, you need it. So yes, community, check. Number Two.

Tiffany

Number two, you got to do your mindset work. Your unconscious, and I, the mindset is so overused, I think about in terms of what are your deeply seated beliefs about money, terrors, anxieties? What's the thing that keeps your head in the sand? What are your stories? And what are your beliefs around how having more money, becoming friends with money? What are your stories about how that's gonna destroy all of your relationships? And if you're refusing to look at that you can't move forward. So you have to start doing the unconscious, uncovering work around money and your projections on money.

Maegan

And I'm just curious, Tiffany, do you do this deep mindset work with your students in Lean In, Make Bank?

Tiffany

Absolutely, yes.

Maegan

Great. I think that's I mean, I promise I'm not just like trying to sell Tiffany's program right now. But I wanted to clarify that piece, because I feel like the mindset, the deep emotional work, is where most people get stuck in the process. Because most what I, what I hear all the time from my business coaching clients is Maegan, I went to therapy, and I tried to talk to my therapist about my money stuff. And they just changed the topic. They're like, so where do I, where do I go, you know, if my therapist can't help me, process the symbolism and the meaning of money in my life, like how do I do that work? This is a gap that you are filling with Lean In, Make Bank is creating that container in that space where people can have the hard conversations that most people in the world are not capable of having with us.

Tiffany

And the thing that I, I just got a little dizzy, because I'm like, This is so exciting. I gotta keep clear, the thing that I'm so excited about is in our program, because we start with community, we actually teach therapists how to do that work with each other. Very intentional, very specific directions and instructions around how to contain those conversations within a community. So when therapists start doing this work, and many of them, and many of them unfortunately end up leaving their therapists, their own therapist for this reason you're describing, they have an entire community that they've learned how to have trusting, safe, challenging, scary conversations with to help them move on to the third thing you have to do. Okay, number three, get real about what your financial situation is. Yeah, the fun with fees calculator, which we'll give to folks, actually do the math. How many hours a day do I want to work? How many days a week? How many weeks a month? And how many months a year right? How many, how much do I want to work? What kind of lifestyle do I want to have? What are my current honest bills? What is my dream life if you actually let yourself dream and then within the time frame parameters you've set, how much will that cost per hour?

Maegan

It's just data.

Tiffany

That's right.

Maegan

It's just data. It's, and I'm so glad you're saying this. I mean, this is a pillar of my model. When I'm helping people figure out how to burnout-proof their business. It's what are, let's like, money, like you have to understand what you need to thrive in your life. Because if you don't, and I think this is why so many people do burnout, they get stuck in what I call the arbitrary more trap, right where they're just, all the time, it's like, oh, I finally had a five figure month, now I need a six figure year. And now I need a seven figure year. And now I need, and now I need, and it's just, you're constantly looking for more. Or on the flip side of that you are like completely under charging and not doing enough. And you're, you know, not making enough to make ends meet. Either way, your business has no structure, it has no strategy, because you haven't measured that against, not what society tells you you're supposed to do, but what you actually need. I mean, it's a game changer when people actually sit down and understand their numbers and go, Oh, well, now it's just data. And I see that I need to grow $20,000 a month to pay my expenses personally and in my business. So I have to charge X for my client work. It's not an emotional decision. It's a data decision.

Tiffany

Absolutely. And we see really them falling into the, they get into the program, if they're not following the steps, therapists, you got to follow the steps. They might get in and say I'm raising my fees by 20 bucks.

Maegan

Why?

Tiffany

Yeah. And then they get a couple of weeks in, and then they say, Oh, that was not enough. Can I raise my fees again? Or the opposite? I gotta charge 200. They're not, if they if you don't follow the system we've set up then you fall into the arbitrary, arbitrary more. I love that, or the arbitrary less so really getting clear about what do I need? What do I want? And then making your decisions based on that.

Maegan

Yeah. Money, in this sense, money should not be emotion based. Yes. And we're going to talk about the fun with fees calculator in a couple of minutes. But yes, it is this incredible tool Tiffany has created that will help you take the emotion out of it. So okay, let's recap. We have number step one, develop a community of therapists who are doing this work with you. Step two, peel back those layers and go really deep into the mindset work. And it's not just superficial money mindset, like it's not just saying like, I deserve to make a million dollars. Actually, nobody gives a shit about that, like this mindset work is really going deep into what does money symbolizes for me, what childhood traumas and attachment wounds are tied up in the value I place on my fee, blah, blah, blah, you got to do that really deep work. Step three, you get real about your personal finances so that you have some strategy, you can make some data informed decisions about what fees you charge and your business. And now we have number four, which is what?

Finally is playing the long game actually set up setting up marketing to play the long game. We don't teach marketing in our program. But we do teach you the mindset around doing one thing and doing it well, seeing what works and doing that thing versus going back to I'm doing all of the things a million times out of scarcity, but rather what do I need to do to find and develop relationships with the clients who have the capacity and desire to pay me $275 per session? What does it look like to create that system?

That's right. Well, now you're speaking my language, because that's what I do and Next-Level Therapist. So basically go take Tiffany's Lean In, Make Bank and then pop on over and do Next-Level Therapist with me. And you'll have completed all four steps. And this, my friends, is what we call shameless self promotion.

Tiffany

And, I'm glad to know this because we actually, in module four of our program, we literally say now go join a marketing program. That is your next step. So folks listening, say it one more time Megan, what's the program they're doing?

Maegan

Next-Level Therapist, and I'm gonna take it one step further and say, it isn't just about marketing, right? It's about for me, it's similar to the way you look about money, right? That it's not just about money, it's about really creating a whole ecosystem around yourself that allows you to think deeply about money and to set your fees in a very thoughtful and strategic way with marketing playing the long game because it is a long game. I think we talked about that at the beginning of this conversation, right? Neither one of us started this six months ago, we've been at this for, you know, moving close to a decade now. It takes time. But the same with marketing, you know, you don't just create, I think you use the example earlier of a therapist who's like, I'm gonna make a course about boundaries, and it's gonna make me rich, you know, you don't just make a course about boundaries and then pay for some Facebook ads, and think you're going to be rich, like you have to build a brand foundation. You know, you have to know what is my message? Who is my target audience? How am I going to create a long term strategy to attract the right people to my business, who feel that they can trust me and who want to pay a premium fee for what it is I have to deliver. I hope people listening can just hear how all of these pieces fit together. And it takes time. And it takes multiple investments to help you learn how to build an entire business ecosystem. And it all starts with money. It's why I'm so happy that you're here talking to us about this, because if you don't figure out your money shit early, you will struggle so hard in expanding your business. So just do yourself a favor, like skip the line. And like, go work with Tiffany or whoever you need to work with to figure out your money stuff. Because once you start charging premium fees, everything in your life will get easier, and everything will become clearer, I just really, really believe this. And you'll have more time and space to rest. Because you don't have to kill yourself seeing 35 clients a week to barely pay your credit card bill.

Tiffany

That's right. I love talking about this ecosystem. So many of the therapists come into our program, work the steps, and they finally have space in their life. And for a little while they rest. And then most of them are ambitious. So then once they've rested, once they're making money, once they see that, they don't have to actually work that hard. And in fact, by working less you're doing, you're much more effective, they then go on to create their podcast, their next level program. And so I'm really glad you're doing this and teaching this and this is a trajectory that becomes so possible, once you raise your fees and set your limits on your time.

Maegan

It's so possible and coming full circle, a reminder, you can do all of this, as a person who has lower energy, you do not have to be super extroverted, you don't have to thrive on four hours of sleep at night. Like you can be low energy, you can need a lot of sleep, you can want to work five hours a day, you can take three months a year of vacation like you can, like that's possible for you. Now, that's not some future vision that you know, maybe you'll attain, once your business hit seven figures, no, you can have, you can build this now. Regardless of what kind of person you are, or how much energy you have, it's just so important to me that people really hear that from you and me, Tiffany that like, Hey, if you need somebody to look at who's like done it, look at Tiffany, look at me, this is possible for you too. Yeah, wow. Tiffany, the work that you're doing. It's so powerful. And I just want ,I just wish it. I wish grad schools would like make students take Lean In, Make Bank as a mandatory course requirement.

Tiffany

I think they need to invest in that for their students. I couldn't agree more.

Maegan

I do too. We'll talk about that business plan later. Okay, great. So, to sum it all up, you need a community of therapists, you need to do your deep mindset work. You need to get real and clear about your own personal finances and connect that strategically to the way that you charge fees and your business. And you need to prepare to play the long game, get really clear on your brand. Get clear on your offerings, get clear about how you want to live your life and what difference you want to make in the world and create a sustainable plan that will take you from here to there over a 5-10 year period because this doesn't happen overnight. Sound right to you?

Tiffany

Perfect. Wow, I gotta record that somewhere.

Maegan

Well, here we are. I'll send you a copy of this. Okay, Tiffany, I have two little bonus questions for you at the end here. Question number one, what are your personal red flags that clue you in that you are starting to edge towards burnout? What are your red flags?

Tiffany

Uh, I'm like, am I burning out? Here's a, here's what is happened yesterday. In the new year. Yesterday was the first work day of the new year. And I had planned a gym time in there going to go to the gym. And then I realized, oh, this emergency happened in my business that I got to address. Wow. Here's the first moment, it's happening right now, I did not strategize clearly around. Here are the things I'm going to do intentionally. And then here's a half hour for anything that might pop up in that day that I didn't anticipate. Oh, and by the way, I'm still breastfeeding my child. So really, a very thoughtful around if I say I'm going to do X, my self care thing, and that thing looks like it's gonna get pushed? Red flag number one, I got to rethink how I'm scheduling my days and weeks.

Maegan

Great. That is a super helpful red flag right? When you start sacrificing the things that keep you sane and healthy. You need to take a big step back and just get curious, because if you keep doing that, you will land yourself in burnout. Yes. Okay. That's how Tiffany knows she's getting close to burnout. And last question, Tiffany. What are your favorite ways to rest?

Tiffany

Oh my gosh. Well, the reason this is so hard is because before the pandemic, my rest was getting massages. And we have again, you all know, two little one, little ones. So I've been we've been very COVID cautious. So I haven't been doing that. But absolutely, when I can go and get a massage where I'm getting worked on my body, and I'm not taking care of anyone. That is my number one favorite way to rest. I'm sure there are others. But that's the one I know.

Maegan

Well, how do you rest now that it is COVID? And you are home with two kids? Putting you put you on the spot. But I want to hear because how many people listening to this conversation are in the same exact boat, it's probably not luxurious. So let's just like, own and celebrate the mundane here for a moment.

Tiffany

Most days, I go to bed early because we're up a lot. Yeah, maybe I go to bed between 8:30 and nine now that the baby's sleeping through the night before that it was seven. So if there's a chance before, after all the kids go to sleep, and I go to sleep, my partner and I Andrew will maybe watch a show, watch some kind of fantasy show or something like good television, it has to be high quality. So maybe a half hour or an hour of TV will be like, in a pandemic time I'm going to chill out and do this.

Maegan

I mean, I like to watch TV to rest in non-pandemic times. And now I just watch more TV because there are fewer things to do. I mean, that feels so real Tiffany, thank you for sharing. How do you rest like you watch some really good TV something that allows you to escape, you go to bed early. And when it's available to you, you get a massage. And you know, you could you could just send your husband or your partner, excuse me, a like an online course about how to give your partner great massages.

Tiffany

Yeah, so for Christmas, actually, now I'm going out more he got me a winter ritual massage. So I did that last week, an hour and a half. And they did all the stuff I didn't even know could happen in a massage. That sounds a little sexual, haha.

Maegan

I like it. Let's keep telling me more things.

Tiffany

So that was actually a like, wow, that was amazing. So he did that for me. And I'm gonna start doing that for myself going and getting regular massages, probably monthly.

Maegan

Thank you for sharing. I think like, let's normalize that we all need to do more restful activities, and we've got to schedule it in and the second you start wiping it off of your schedule and replacing it with more work, you need to get really curious about you know, am I living my life in the right way? Or do I need a serious adjustment? Beautiful. Tiffany, I learned so much from you today, you have so much wisdom to share and the fact that you are where you are with the Lean In, Make Bank Academy, you have stepped away from being a therapist, and you've done that through a pandemic, through having two kids, through doing your own deep therapeutic work, I think is such a beautiful testament of what is possible for everyone listening to this conversation. So thank you for sharing. And for anyone listening who wants to learn more from Tiffany, you can connect with her on Instagram at Lean In, Make Bank. And most importantly, if you are ready to take a look at your fees, and even if you don't think you need to raise your fees, if you if you want to just use this data driven approach of understanding your own finances to see if you're charging the right fee. You can download Tiffany's fun with fees calculator, which will help you set your fee once and for all. No confusion, no drama, you put in your numbers, Tiffany does the math for you and then tells you based on the data, this is what your fee needs to be, you can grab that at HeyTiffany.com slash Fee Calculator. We will also include the link to the fun with fees, calculator in all of our communications to you. Tiffany, thank you so much for being here.

Tiffany

Thank you.

Maegan

Wow. Tiffany doesn't hold back any punches. I love how she gets right to the heart of some of the hardest parts of being a business owner. I learn so much about my relationship with money and myself every time I sit down with Tiffany. I hope today's conversation has opened some new doors to healing for you, too.

If you want to learn about Tiffany, you can visit her website at leaninmakebank. com. And if you want help calculating what your fees should really be, download her fun with fees calculator at leaninmakebank. com slash fee dash calculator. I'll put those links in the show notes and I'll talk to you again next week.