This week’s guest is Stefania Licari, actor, comedian, producer and medical doctor.

She attended drama school, became a doctor working in anaesthetics and intensive care, and went to clowning school in Paris. We get into all of this and how empathy towards her colleagues, patients and the audience really tie it all together.

During the pandemic, Stefania has a unique experience both working in medicine and as an actor doing online performances. She got through it with a mindset shift that she shares which would be useful for anyone at any time, even outside lockdowns.

We start with her reflections on her first Edinburgh Fringe in 2022. She is currently revamping her one-woman show, Medica, and taking it to the Vault Festival in London.

We chat about:

• Empathy and impact on patients
• Empathy as it occurs in acting
• Her love of the audience
• Pursuing both a medical career and a theatre one
• Having the right people around at the right time
• Performing as an actor and a comic
• The impact of Philippe Gaulier

Note from Rabiah (Host): 

You’ll hear that I almost saw Stefania’s show at Edinburgh. It was a wonderful and stressful time when I was at Fringe for a week. I loved the flying I did and helping a friend and loved seeing shows. I also performed more than I expected to and missed shows I wanted to see. I still have one person I have meant to write to since August to apologise! Stefania and I became online friends via Twitter and Instagram and I have been thrilled to see how her show has progressed. I’ll be there to see the updated version in February and can’t wait. One of the best parts of being involved in entertainment is being able to celebrate the talents of others while also being assured enough in yourself to do so. I am so happy Stefania is teaching me that. 

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Find Stefania

Website: https://www.stefanialicari.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/licaristefania/ 

Twitter: https://twitter.com/stefanialicari 

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/licaristefania/ 

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCe7fzGcBE_oSyuwdW2ncRPA 

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Mentioned in this episode:

Philippe Gaulier: https://www.ecolephilippegaulier.com/ 

Chris Head: https://www.chrishead.com/ 

Kristine Landon-Smith: https://kristinelandonsmith.com/ 

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More than Work Facebook, Instagram, Twitter: @morethanworkpod Please review and follow anywhere you get podcasts. Thank you for listening. Have feedback? Email morethanworkpod(at)gmail.com!

This is More Than Work, the podcast reminding

you that your self-worth is made up of more than your job title.

Each week I'll talk to a guest about how they discovered that for themselves.

You'll hear about what they did, what they're doing, and who they are.

I'm your host, Rabiah.

I work in IT, perform standup comedy, write, volunteer, and of course, podcast.

Thank you for listening.

Here we go.

Hey everyone, welcome back to More Than Work this week.

And my guest is Stefania Licari.

She's an actor, comedian, producer, and medical doctor, which is not

a combo that I usually hear about.

So, uh, we'll talk about that.

Thanks for being on More Than Work, Stefania.

Hi.

Thank you so much for having me.

Thank you.

Well, thank you.

I'm really excited to chat with you.

We've been following each other on Instagram for quite a while.

I almost saw your show at Edinburgh.

I'm gonna see it in a month.

So, I'm really glad we're finally able to connect.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you for almost seeing the show.

I think that's, that's a good step because, you know.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, exactly.

Easing into it.

So, where am I talking to you from today?

I'm London.

That's where I live.

I'm based in London.

Awesome.

So same, so we're, we're talking to each other from very closeby, but

not exactly in the same room, which is, I guess probably safe with all

the flues going around anyway, you

Exactly.

First of all, I mean, we, like I said, we connected on.

Instagram, I think it might have been, or on and on Twitter and stuff.

And it might have been just during Edinburgh, like I was, just checking out

who seemed cool to go see and you were one of the people and and then there was

like Luca Cupani also a Italian comedian, and then there's a bunch of other people.

But, , I guess how, first of all was Edinburgh for you?

I mean, it was a while ago, but that was an interesting experience as

someone who had never been there before.

And I didn't have a show, but you did.

So how was that

Well, it was my first time in as a performer.

It doesn't feel it was a long time ago.

It feels like, I don't wanna say I'm still traatized, but in

a way, it was a week ago.

So I'm just, uh, still recovering.

I would say it was one of the most challenging experience ever, but

also without sounding too cheesy, it was probably one of the best

ones ever, ever, at so many levels.

I absolutely immediately f fell in love with it.

The vibes were fantastic and I, and for me, every day it was like, I

can't believe my lack of being here.

It's amazing.

Like be surrounded by all the people that I know, that I like, that I worked

with, that I aspire to work with.

It was like we were in some kind of magical, I don't know, Harry Potter

movie where the entire Edinburgh, it was just a big artistic campus

and we were just seeing each other and hanging around with each other.

It's just, it was phenomenal.

So yes, very tiring, very exhausting.

I sold my soul for flyering like a mad woman every day for hours and hours.

But, absolutely really rewarding and satisfying.

So yeah, deep in my heart, I really look forward to the next one.

Yeah.

Well, and the flyering thing is funny, so people don't know what flyering is.

Cause a lot of people aren't in the, in the industry, so

to speak, who might listen.

But flyering is when you're really, you have a printed flyer about your

show and you're just handing it to people trying to get them to come.

Exactly.

you.

Well, you, you, you can try really hard and, uh, I, I, I think it's

actually really, really important part of the entire marketing

and, and the whole experience.

So, , because I have this mindset, then I need to make things, likable so I can

actually do properly, I realized at a very early stage that if I hated the

flyering and I saw it as, oh, I have to do what I don't want to do, there's

no way I would've done in any good way.

So I kind of self brainwashed.

And I told myself this was an incredible opportunity.

And it was, it really was.

Because what I realized, so I I I, I, I know this is gonna sound really crazy to

a lot of other artists that went flyering, but I really enjoyed the flyering because

that I used it as an opportunity to meet my audience and my potential audience.

So it was very beautiful actually.

It just extremely tiring and to do every day and then still

have a show, it's exhausting.

But it's such a great thing.

And you realize how much, , people already know about you or your show, what you want

to tell them, how you come across, what type of questions they ask you, that you

can also test some new material and jokes.

You learn how not to take anything personally, because some people might be

a little bit harsh in the way they refuse.

Uh, a flyer, for example.

And I think that's a good, , you know, training for when you might have hecklers

in the show or people working out.

I was very lucky I didn't have many, I still had possibly three

I counted because I was like, ah, you're working out on my show.

Oh my gosh.

Yeah, someone walking out.

That's, that's rough.

Uh, for sure.

well in Edinburght.

eh, also, uh, I don't know if it's just a nice, uh, soft excuse we tell

each others as artists, but we say, oh, don't worry, there's gonna be somebody

walking out because the shows are so close to each other in terms of timing.

So people just, you know, they, they have commitment, you know,

Mm-hmm.

it's nothing about you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's cool.

I flyered for a good friend of mine, for about the, the week that

I was there, and it was kind of in a way nice flyering for someone else

because it wasn't my name on the flyer necessarily, and I was able to say,

oh, I'm just doing this for my friend.

That's how much I believe in him, you know?

So that was kind of nice.

But, , I can imagine like, and I thought it was fun, but I was only doing it

for a week and for someone else, . So, but I like your attitude around it.

So I guess I, there's so much to talk to you about just because you have such

a diverse background for one thing, just being in the medical field and

also being a performer and a producer, and so I what came first for you at,

at the, as far as like even education, because you have gone to school for for

performance and for of course for medical.

You don't just jp into it like you could for comedy

Can you imagine, just trying out some new stuff for surgery

Yeah.

You're like, oh, decide I have a new five.

I can do this in five minutes.

open surgery nights, well, okay.

Chronologically, in terms of passion, it was acting because

I wanted to be an actress.

When I was very little.

I was five.

So for a few years, around five, up to 10, I was absolutely obsessed with acting.

And then life took a different course.

And my best second option was instead of getting to acting, getting to medicine.

so I trained as a doctor.

And then I moved to this country.

I'm originally from Italy.

And then I went to drama school.

Actually, I went to two drama schools, So then I qualified as an actor and, , I

did also comedy school in, uh, Paris with a ippe Gaulier comedy clown.

And then I've been working, uh, as an actor professionally

in the last decade basically.

And I'm still working at times as a doctor.

So I left the medical career such, and I work, uh, more on a lock room base.

My specialty is, uh, anesthetics and intensive care, so I work very

much intensive care, emergency operating theaters, stuff like that.

So yes, that's a that's a quick like CV in a nutshell,

Yeah, that's the Cliffs notes of your LinkedIn profile,

basically . First focusing on the, the part of you that's in the medical field,

then we'll go to the performance part.

, and a lot of artists during, you know, when Covid started, the had

really nothing to fall back on.

And I think some of the bravest people I know had nothing to fall back on because

like, I'm someone with a day job in IT.

So it was actually busier for me.

So did you end up going back to doing medical full-time during that time?

Or

For me, the pandemics were kind of extraordinary phases in

my life because I worked obviously a lot as a doctor because the requests,

especially of people with a specialty intensive care, uh, were absolutely

all over the roof for obvious reason.

But in the same time, I also worked quite a lot as an actress.

Everything was online obviously, but I did gigs online.

I produced a web series which won, uh, several nominations

and many awards internationally.

I focused on the writing.

I did, like cabaret character comedy standup gigs online.

So a did the enormous amount of auditions and some work, podcast interview.

Now, why am I say that is because, It's not just about, oh, look

at myself, how busy I was.

But, uh, what, uh, for me was the biggest learning experience during the

pandemic was how your mindset can help you to go through anything, no matter.

Hard it is.

And, uh, I'm a strong believer that we really give ourselves

the meanings of what's around us.

So let's go back to the very beginning, like March, 2020.

The pande, you know, lockdown the pandemic.

Suddenly I can't flight.

See my family in Italy, I'm completely isolated here.

And I start, see people getting really sick, die.

And then very quickly I get sick as well.

Very quickly, some of my colleagues, doctors and nurses get extremely sick

and some die in a matter of months.

My mood was, oh my God, this is a catastrophe and

I don't know how to handle.

I'm in total panic.

And then I told myself, I have two options; I can cry out and sit on a

sofa until this is over, or put myself together and switch completely the

way I look at all of this and I seek opportunities for me, for others.

Now, this sounds just a very nice motivational, cheesy message, but actually

completely change the way I approached things and uh, I think it had a huge

impact on not only my career, because that sets up , lots of new opportunities,

lot of exposure and work, but also had an impact on people around me.

So I, I really overlapped with acting and the medicine.

So when I was at work, I kept my mental sanity and my, my internal strengths

by, , connecting to my artistic side the most in, in a really crazy way.

And, that really, really, really helped me and saved me.

So I trying to look for moment of lightness and, , and a hor in

every, in every circstance, no matter how dramatic the moment was.

And that really helped me.

And then I start sharing this with other people around me, and that

really helped all the teams that were around, around me, the, the nurses,

the doctors, the medical students.

And I, and now when I was after the, the hospital, I started

doing a medical web series using obviously my kind of medical jokes.

And it just felt like, actually, actually we can empower ourself to find

access strategies and tools that can allow us to, to, to seek opportunities.

And what can I teach other people about my experience?

What value of be a doctor or can be in the acting field and what's the value

of be an actor can be while I'm in a hospital and we're trying to survive?

And all those skills that are like empathy, hanity that are in both

professions, but explored in a different way because the way you

learn empathy in acting is different, the way you learn empathy in medicine.

And I felt that there was a richness that, and a vocabulary.

and tools so that I could like really share with the two worlds.

And the impact I saw around me, both physically and online, was so overwhelming

and in such a positive way that really made me think, wow, actually this is a

great example how something that was so dramatic, like the pandemics to now to

be such a, a springboard in a way, such a life changing moment in a, a positive way.

By all means, wish it had not happened and I'm not taking away the, the, the

drama from so many people dying, even very close people, even colleagues.

But again, when we can't stop that happening, what can we do

internally to change ourself and to trying to get whatever we can so

somehow there is something new, a growth, , life coming out of this?

That's been my experience during pandemic.

Wow.

Yeah, and I, I relate in a way because I moved here right,

in the start of it basically.

So I'm, I officially moved in the very end of January, and then I moved into

my flat the day before the lockdown, and I was sick the day lockdown started.

I had a fever and which it was never confirmed covid, but I don't

know what else it would've been.

And, a lot of people asked me, you know, how was it?

And you know, oh, that's awful that you moved now and whatever.

And in a way I ended up doing a lot of different things and I got

to, you know, do comedy online.

I meet people that I probably wouldn't have met if I had been in like,

basements in London doing comedy.

And, then I did end up doing school, started the podcast and

worked, and I didn't miss anyone because I didn't know anyone here.

So it was interesting, and I know what you mean about just kind

of seeing it in a different way.

And that's not to take away, like you said, from others' experiences, but I'm

particularly really inspired even now by listening to you talk about this.

Cause I think the mindset can apply anywhere, right?

Because outside of a pandemic, we all end up facing personal issues or personal

setbacks or personal times of difficulty.

And, and the mindset, uh, shift that, that occurred for you, I think can

really apply to all those areas, you know, not just a pandemic.

Absolutely.

I mean, mindset is really, I don't know, more than 90% of

whatever happens in your life.

I suppose there is a likelihood of a coincidence, et cetera, but , the

rest is what we think, how we apply.

I believe that most the world is divided into categories;

the people that see a problem and see the problem and the people

that see how to solve it, you know, an opportunity and what it is.

Maybe it's a, it's a story of the, the glass half full.

But it's a very, very simple and clear difference in the mindset in

your life will change dramatically, depending which way you see that glass

Mm-hmm.

. Yeah, a hundred percent.

And so one more question just on the medical side, then

we'll just jp into all the art.

I'm thinking about when you were talking about empathy, looking two different ways

in medicine and in acting and or arts.

And then just thinking about my experience with certain physicians and I, I see

a lot of neurologists personally and I find that their personality has been

very similar in their communication styles and o other kind of doctors too

that they almost seem to lack empathy.

That's the patient point of view.

I don't think that's a controversial way to put it, but, whether that's true or

not of the individuals themselves, but you went into some field of medicine

in the anesthetics and intensive care, and I think you have to have a

different way of looking at things to work with patients that are that ill.

At least if intensive care over here means the same as in the US, the

people are quite ill at that point.

Do you know what brought you into that side of medicine?

I mean, some people don't choose, maybe, I don't know.

But what brought you into that and did maybe you having the sensitivities

of an artist also inform that decision to go into that part of

medicine versus some other part?

That's a really good question.

I mean, in a, in a simple level.

I remember when I started medical school, I was always fascinated by

the so-called the big stuff, . So the big emergency, the big medicine.

So, uh, things like intensive care emergencies, they always full of

like high adrenaline situations and uh, I always really like that.

, also because I guess I got into medicine cuz I like.

People . And I like, I like han stories and I always, I

always got really interested.

In fact, I think especially now retrospectively now that I'm mainly an

actor and an artist, I look back and even when I was doing Ali Manson, the

thing that always really fascinated me wasn't the science per se.

I was always pretty fascinating to understand how the body works , but is the

hanity around this is the stories, is the relationships between the patients and

the relatives, the patients and the stuff.

So I do believe maybe I always had a sensitivity of the, of an artist in

a way, maybe a little bit more than a, than another scientist per se.

Unfortunately, I have to admit that teaching empathy has never been a really

a focus in any medical school of graduate training anywhere in any country.

It's something you kind of supposed to learn as you go.

Uh, and I feel like lot of scientists are not necessarily the biggest

emotional empath, so they struggle and they never pick up with those skills.

I feel for me, it's very, very, very, I mean, it's fundamental.

In fact, it's most even more important to that what, uh what you do practically,

because quite often medicine.

, what we do is not necessary.

What makes a difference?

I mean, sometimes it is, but sometimes it isn't.

Sometimes it's a guess or could be the best option.

What me, it makes a lot of difference is actually how people feel that are treated.

That's absolutely crucial.

And I, I always have myself, I might not be the best assigned kids on

the planet, nor are aspire to be, but, boy, I'm very, I'm very good

in my, in my knowledge of, of course, and I've got a lot of experience.

But for me, the target is if I have a somebody in front of me and

need my help, how can I make their life better today because of me?

What can I offer that's gonna really make this experience and

it's very dramatic, it's very catastrophic, maybe slightly better?

And I think that's where empathy comes from.

That's, that's the beginning of looking for a hanity.

When you really see another han being and you think I wanna have an impact on

them preferably saving their life and and get them outta the hospital safe.

But also, if that is not possible, which very often is not possible in intensive

care, how can that experience be slightly more comfortable, more pleasant, more han?

So I wish other doctors very often, they use temperature a little bit more.

Quite cross the times with some of the colleagues.

They really like that.

there's a lot of, you know, excuses around, oh, too busy or No time or,

or not important or doesn't matter.

And, I, I, yeah.

I'm a . I'm a big advocate of like a really, really pause and have a

han connection before anything else.

Very crucial to me.

And I hate to be a patient.

I hate it.

So every time I'm patient myself, , I'm like, I need that.

Need somebody that is very sweet to me.

And understanding , I know how important it's

Yeah, for sure.

And there's some doctors who are great at it and I have one who, she

called me ahead of our appointment.

She's like, oh, I had time today.

So I'm trying to catch up with some of my patients before they come in cuz

I don't have time when they come in.

And I thought that was really interesting, but also kind of sad that like, you

go in and they don't have time for you, so she's trying to call people

outside of the time to catch up first.

And it was a cool approach though, cause then at least we were kind

of caught up and we could just, you know, hit the ground running

with like the plan basically.

but you see it's very, very rarely empathy only a question

of time because yes, it's nice if you have the opportunity to have a

longer chat, a deeper connection.

It only takes like one meaningful eyes contact , and you already see it in

the physiology of the person around you because they do feel seen and I,

you know, you just need a few seconds.

If you don't have any, anything more than that, that's the quality of

connection that matters, I believe.

that's a good point.

That is.

Thanks for listening so far, and I'm just going to Interrupt the podcast for

about a minute and a half or so to tell you about a podcast that I really love.

It's called Art Heals All Wounds, and it's by Pam Uzzell.

She works in documentary films and basically she's super easy

to listen to and has great guests, kind of like me, right?

I know that's what you're thinking.

One of my favorite episodes was when she had the directors

and creators of Crip Camp.

This Oscar-nominated film, documentary film on her podcast.

I learned so much from them and was really entertained.

But basically all her guests have a story to tell.

Art is how they express themselves.

The art could be what you think of as art, meaning something like

painting, or it could be writing or filmmaking or anything else.

So Pam's gonna tell you a little bit more about our podcast and then

we'll resume with this episode.

Thank you.

Do you want to change the world?

So do I.

On this podcast, we meet artists whose work is doing just that.

Welcome to Art Heals All Wounds.

I'm your host, Pam Uzzell.

Each week I interview an artist and talk about their work as creative thinkers.

Artists present us with some of the most compelling visions of ways that our

world could work better for everyone.

Art around environmental, social, and racial justice.

Gender-equity.

Ways to build community and bridge divisions and solace for grieving.

If we can see solutions to the things that prevent us from thriving as

individuals and societies, we can imagine implementing those solutions.

Once we imagine that we can become the people we want to be belonging

to communities that nurture everyone and living in societies based on

equity and justice, how do we change the world, one artist at a time.

I think we'll just start with Medico because that's your

current project that you're doing.

Talk about Medico and talk about what's going on with it this year.

Thank you.

Thank you for asking.

So, medical is a solo show.

It's co devised and directed by absolutely wonderful, wonderful, wonderful director

is, uh, Chris Head and, uh, dear friend as well, and a great mentor.

It's currently under revision, so I'm gonna start the new tour.

, next month I'm gonna have some previews in Islington at the Hope Theater and

then the premiere of the show at the Vault Festival on the 17th of February.

And so the show started last year and it toured for a year.

It's a medical comedy, and now it's kind of revised.

It's got some new material.

There's some new so-called hot stuff.

as I'm very excited.

It's the same concept, same structure with a lot, lot of new stuff.

It's really around me as, , as a doctor, as a foreign doctor

here, but also as an actor and how you put the two things together.

There's a lot to talk about immigration and without giving away too much that

I saw some, kind of agey stuff about some episode of racism or sexism.

So I want, I wanna share that because, I find this is very empowering to be able to

talk about such a delegated topics and an upsetting topics in an artistic setting.

Therefore, I'm hoping to inspire other people to voice up issues and, metabolize

them and, inspire others themselves.

is it autobiographical or is it like partly autobiographical?

Partly, you know, also just fiction.

I mean, all of us with comedy, I you, you do a different type of comedy

than I do, but there's some truth to it usually there's some premise

and then you kind of go off on, on your own and do what you want.

At least for me.

Is it, so how is it for you on that,

Yes, that's a lot of truth.

I mean, every single thing comes from a place of truth.

Obviously for comedic purposes, some of the stuff can be a

little bit enlarged, modified.

None of the patient's stories can be traceable.

The elemental truth for me is, is the beginning of a, of a comedy show.

And, and it really matters cuz I did, I did want my own voice to be heard.

so yeah, so that's a lot, a lot of truth,

Yeah.

. And for you, so I mentioned you did a different kind of comedy than me,

and that's because I'm more of a traditional standup observational comedy.

Especially any listeners in America know what the American standup style

is really, and you're more doing like acting in character comedy

well actually, I did the character comedy.

I did a lot to a clown.

I'm trained in clown and comedy itself, but, what the show is about as a

standup show with theatrical element.

So there's some singing, there's a lot of act out, but, uh, it's not character.

It started last year initially as character comedy in which there was a

novel overlapping of a character story.

Still a doctor, Italian doc in England and myself.

And initially what I wanted was to leave the.

Almost like on purpose, confused, which, what, what was the, the truth and what

was the fictional, because I just believe that also that's how you feel very

often when you are in medical setting.

You're just very confused with what's happening.

But now growing as an artist, growing to the show, I felt that I wanted to drop

completely the character side of it.

So it is fully me doing standup.

And again, elemental truth are more clear because also I'm touching topics that

are very personal and vulnerable and I, I wanted to make sure I realized it.

And actually this time I really wanted to make sure the audience

understood the truth behind that and not left thinking, oh, maybe that was

a fictional, because again, I feel touching topics that quite delicate

and, uh, I don't want any confusion.

, and again, there are some modifications, uh, because it's a

comedy show, , but the, the, the, driver is very much a real experience.

I guess the main difference, cuz you mentioned observational

comedy, so I'm not the, I'm not necessarily, , I'm an observation.

I'm not particularly topical comedy more like my own feelings, experience and

emotions, and I do a lot of act out.

So that's my style and a standup.

Yeah.

Yeah.

More personal narrative.

I'm, I do a lot of personal narrative kind of

Hmm.

Well maybe we're not so that different

No, no.

Now we're not, I mean, yeah.

Yeah.

Now that it's kind of d into being more of a traditional show, but like

with the act out elements of the music.

That's really cool too.

It's interesting for me to hear that, that you started out with one concept

and way of doing it and d it over time, and I, I think that's what a

lot of people maybe don't know or understand about any work of art that's

performed is that it will over time.

How did you feel when you realized you wanted to go somewhere else

with it and you had worked so hard on this piece in the first place?

Because a lot of the Edinburgh shows and the longer shows end up taking time

to do like a couple years or something.

So how's that process for you?

Yeah.

Well, in a way it has been a, it is been quite organic because again, the

show is, before it was a character standup hybrid with theater and

now is standup hybrid with theater.

So in, in terms of like some general structures, that is very still, very

soon, because again, I'm using my acting skills to experiment with

big, act out, with music, with a different type of performance than,

it's not a standard standard up.

But, it's a really good question because I remember after Edinburgh, when I sat

down with Chris and we were like, oh, what are we gonna do with the show?

Because the show worked extremely well.

So I was like, oh, we are gonna modify, we're gonna go somewhere else?

And then we decided to be ambitious and to modify some parts.

So there's a lot, lots of new material.

Which again, it's a bit scary cause I thought, oh wow, the show was working

very well, . But it's a solution.

And I think as an artist you have to, because it would've felt not authentic if

I had stayed there just for the comfort and or knowing the show was working.

And I found, well, I wanna, I wanna move on because I'm moving on.

I'm feeling more and more willing to, to share.

Personal things.

Before maybe I was slightly more resistant, so now I want

to, I want to inspire more.

And I, and I felt, because there's a lot to talk about, be an

immigrant, be a woman, and I feel like, wow, imagine if other women

or other immigrants felt inspired.

It's so cool to hear just hear about that evolution though

because you don't get to talk to people very often, like in this part of it where

you're gonna go into the next, next phase.

And I think for me, one thing that I would want people to just take from this too is

that you know it's okay for things to and change and for you to, your relationship

to change this material and then make it work for where you are with it too.

Mm.

it

It I think it needs to change.

And I, again, a comedy show.

We see a lot of successful comedy shows.

, we know they've been going on for like three, five years.

And I, I, I bet, you know.

I bet So they, they change though.

I mean, they need to change cuz otherwise, what's, what's the point?

It's not, it's not a film you just keep projecting.

So yeah.

Well, hopefully I will not regret changes.

We go back to the as well.

No, I'm very excited.

I feel it's a really stepping up in the quality of the show and, I'm excited.

I'm really, I fall in love with the standup and again, it, despite mine

is not a stand standup, cause I can't help having that acting side of me

is like, ah, But it's it's very, very much, much closer to, to stand up.

And I, I love standup.

I, I think is one of the most beautiful, wi intelligent and fine arts ever.

So my respect for, to, to all the, than comics, including yourself.

So, yeah, big time.

Yeah, it's fun.

And I'm, I, I mean, I'm still so, so new like three years in compared to

some people, but, it is really cool.

And so how did you go, how did you start standup?

I asse that was a lot later than when you were just, acting in the first place.

um, initially I'm traditionally trained in an

acting school in London age 15.

And then I took comedy and clown with gaulier and then I, I discovered

during that the passion for comedy.

So up to that I've been working in kind of standard plays.

I even did Shakespeare, so not necessarily comedy at all.

And then I did some darker comedy.

And during the lockdown, actually I started doing some online standup

courses and really enjoyed it.

I start performing as a character comedy.

and then I evolved I carried on and I've been, uh, apart from the shows,

I've been going around doing gigs both like paid gigs and open mic.

Yeah, in a way to the standard stand up, I'm fairly new too.

It's been a possibly three years.

I just felt I wanted to, to experiment with like, how does

an actor approach stand up.

I feel it's, it's a little bit different.

So that's, that's where I am in terms of experience and aspirations.

Yeah, and a lot of standup comics will end up acting.

You'll see that.

You'll see, you know, I, one that comes to mind for me is someone I

absolutely adores Marc Maron the US.

He, he has a podcast, but he's a standup comedian.

He came up in The Comedy Store and in, in New York and things like that.

And then he's had his own show.

Though it's hard to mention him and he's gonna get mentioned at

least twice this season now cause I'm gonna do it as Louis CK.

He was also doing standup comedy and then he had a show where he's acting.

And I mean, other than his personal issues, talented at both.

And you know, you have like Robin Williams who was acting, I guess

he was at Julliard, so that's more of an actor turned comic.

And I don't know if he was ever a traditional standup, but a lot of, lot

of people doing, doing one to the other.

But for you, you went acting to comedy.

And what is that difference for you?

Because in acting you're playing a character a lot of times someone else

wrote and, and in comedy, I mean, even though it doesn't seem like a lot of

us are a character on stage, we have to develop some sort of personality for stage

that's a bit different than the one on sitting here talking to you right now.

And so how's that process for you, like that comedy character versus

like, Meaning you stand up comedy character, not like a character.

Character and then like acting and how you prepare for that kind of role.

By all means I love both.

So my plan is not to leave the conventional acting at all, at all.

In fact, I think having your own standup experience can, can bring a

lot of value to when you go back other on stage, on TV set as a character.

I like, I love both.

I really do.

I feel the, the stand up on stage allows you to have your own voice express

and heard, and that's like one of the biggest tick in the boxes in my life

and is extremely empowering especially as a women, well especially as a

migrant, and that's an whole other story.

But also when it comes to acting conventionally so play somebody else

character, it's beautiful because again, that's another opportunity for

you to express empathy in a different way cuz you need a huge amount

of empathy to play somebody else.

And I, I always love that process.

So every time I have a character to play, especially the more the

character is far away from me, the more I focus on the similarities.

And I think there has been a, another, I know I always go back to the word empathy,

but there's been another big lesson in my life, how to develop empathy and a

really focusing on the similarities.

Once you find that connection, there is always a connection.

No matter what the character is, there is always gonna be a connection.

then you can start exploring the differences.

And I found that that process of character studying fascinating.

And the other thing is I'm a deeply insanely love with writing and playwright.

And I feel I was so blessed to have the opportunity to, to have so many amazing

contemporary playwrights and having the possibility to put on the scene

and on the stage or a tv something that came from the vision of somebody else.

I think it's very beautiful.

so yes, I, I wanna carry on in doing both.

Absolutely.

That's, that's really great.

After you did your formal degree in acting at a school in London,

what brought you into the clowning?

Cause I know a couple people who have done maybe that course.

I think one person I know did that course and some did similar.

But I've heard it's really, really difficult actually.

Oh yes.

Okay, well, let's put this way.

Really one of the life changing moments in my life has being a, going to go

in Paris, I, I look at him as the most human, phenomenal, extraordinary master

of comedy and clown ever, ever heard of.

Not even just the currently existing but ever heard of.

It's phenomenal.

The process is extremely tough.

There's the idea is to kind of breakdown habit and, maybe preconcept

or concept then others have put on you, which is very interesting.

And then find out what is your real nature, what is where your

community come from and use that.

So what I'm gonna be always extremely grateful to ippe is that he really

allowed me to reconnect with my roots.

Something that at the drama school in London has been a bit put aside.

Although the training was fantastic here, but in a way, I felt I wasn't

fully connected with my italianity.

and there's no way you can be a great actor if you are not fully connected

with yourself, whatever it means.

And obviously be a migrant for me, my origins is gonna be

number one thing to connect with.

So ippe really allowed me to discover that and reconnect with that.

So, I'm extremely, extremely grateful.

It was a really tough process but I'm I'm still sending him blessings, every day.

Every time I'm on stage.

So that's always a part of me and I'm imagine him and also sending him thanks.

[laughter]

And it was a bit of coincidence actually.

So there wasn't, I mean, I'm gonna sound a very lame answer, but

there wasn't a big aha moment.

There was somebody who mentioned, uh, him.

It was a tutor at the drama school.

Her name is Kristine Landon Smith.

Wonderful.

She had come across this training.

She was already teaching with more attention to what it means to teach

to international students which is something that still needs to be explored

a lot in drama schools in England.

She was a pioneer in that sense, very beautiful.

So I really connected with her methods and then she mentioned

ippe Gaulier and I just had a click of synchronicity inside myself.

And I looked it up on a website.

Two weeks later I was in Paris.

It was really like that.

And so it's one of those things I think it really was meant to happen.

I took the chance and, and it really changed the way I approached art.

What is really beautiful about him is also everything and acting starts from

an incredible love for the audience.

And you see, when you teach conventional act, when you learn a

conventional acting, there is very often this concept of the fourth

wall, which means basically you have.

A separation.

So a wall, a little, well, a metaphorical wall between you and the audience.

What Philippe really taught us is about having that audience always connected

with you, of course, in some place, because the nature,, what they are.

You don't interact with the audience.

So it doesn't mean necessarily interact with the audience, but it

means about having that connection and acting for the love of the audience.

And I think that, that, that is so beautiful and I'm, and I really, I really

felt that connected with me, that concept.

And , and I remember being in Edinburgh and having this

constant sense of gratitude.

Even when maybe the, the show wasn't the greatest itself, that particular day.

But I always felt, I'm so grateful that people are here.

I'm so grateful they're listening.

I'm so, I had this incredible gratitude and love.

And for me, audiences as concept is, is a sacred concept.

So yes, it's something that I, I really give the merit to the credit,

to Philippe for teaching us that, that humanity and that desire to, to

express the love for the audience.

Yeah, that's, that's something that also, I think

just as a mindset thing that you're really mastering by practicing it all

the time and, and every performance and yeah, it's, a lot of times the

audience becomes the enemy somehow.

Like, well, they're not reacting to us, but then that's not

expressed in gratitude for them.

That's really just kind of, you're performing for people that you

kind of are expressing that you don't really like very much, which

is kind of interesting, you know?

So the way you're looking at it is really a, a nice way.

And if, if we do think that what we give is what we get, then you know,

the reception should be a little bit better than, than the people

going, oh, the audience is terrible.

Yeah, no, absolutely.

I mean, in my concept, the audience is never, never, never, never the enemy.

Even in the worst hecklers I had.

somehow I, I, I don't know, I always, I always feel may, maybe

for me it's more like a concept.

The stage is a sacred environment, everything around it.

So I feel to be an actor, you, you have to have that humanity.

When you are a solo performer in particular, ,so when you, when

you're out in an ensemble, then your connection, so you are a

humanity, is with the other actors.

But when you are solo, your other actors is the audience.

And I used to not treat as enemies your actors in an ensemble.

So what would you treat as enemies your audience.

And even if they don't respond the way you would like to respond, I, I

learned that, that judgment doesn't make any sense because first of all,

uh, what does it mean they don't respond how I would like them to respond?

People have a different way of responding.

Sometimes they, you might misjudge the way they're responding

because you have preconcept.

So I am, you know, I'm very dubious when people say, oh, you have to know exactly

how you wanted the audience to feel.

Because I'm like, really?

Well, actually, that's a bit patronizing because audiences they're very clever.

They're very smart.

I don't wanna to outsmart them.

I'm not gonna tell them, I'm not gonna tell myself how I want them to feel.

I have a product, I'm offering my products with all, you know, my best efforts.

And then it's up to them to feel what they want to feel and whatever they

offer me back, I need to be ready as an artist to accept it without

the judgment, without saying, no, actually I wanted something else.

No, I may, I might want something else from my own performance.

But the audience, uh, yeah, I, I look at them as a sacred, yeah, I'm,

I really hope I'm gonna keep this forever because I think it's a good

place to be in relationship with the with the audience . So yes, it's a,

it's, it's, it's a very important, uh, cause I find sometimes some actors that

they, they're trying to outsmart them.

And I think they know better.

They get angry with the audience.

I was like, no.

Why?

Why?

Yeah, you, you see that quite a bit actually.

Like it's interesting.

So one thing you've mentioned in a few places, and I want to get into it a

little bit with you, is the side of this that comes from you being a woman in

two fields that I think women are still trying to find their way in, which is

like medical and comedy and acting, but then also as an immigrant to this country.

Now I'm an immigrant too, but I have a very different experience based on even,

you know, English was my first language.

I come from the United States.

That just puts you in a different position.

Generally it, it's a privileged position to be in, but definitely have

experienced as a woman some things that you've probably experienced.

And we even connected, I mean, you were very kind to reach

out to me after I posted.

I wasn't sure if I should have posted it, but I did about some catcalling

incident I had that was pretty scary.

And you reached out to me about that, which was really an amazing,

and again, empathetic response.

The way you responded to me was really kind.

But looking at both as a woman and as an immigrant, what does doing

this work and the arts mean to you?

And how, how has it changed maybe how you're doing it?

Yes, . That's, that's a fabulous question.

And , and thank you for the appreciation about that time that I reached out.

I did really feel you.

, so, and I still feel like extremely sorry that it happened to you.

That's, , they should never, never really happened to anybody.

Unfortunately, it really still happens a lot to women.

And of course now there's gonna be men say, oh, nobody happens to men as well.

Yes.

Okay.

But let's put in context . So when we talk about sexism, we

talk about women in general.

It's a question like quantity.

Sometimes people say, oh, but it's equally dangerous for a

man to be working late at night.

Like, is it, is it?

Actually, I don't think it is.

You know, it's just like when men can't see that they just, they haven't

either dated enough women or they don't have sisters, don't have daughters

because completely In which world do you live if you think we have that

quality in the freedom, we can walk around, move around and do stuff around?

We don't, we don't, anyway.

Well, yeah.

And honestly, like, I'll just say one thing to that too.

We're not speaking about their experience.

We're speaking about ours.

And when they speak about their experience, we don't tell them

that they're not having it.

But when we speak about our experience, we're told things like that.

But if men experience that, then they need to tell their story so that can change.

But as women, we're telling our stories so it can change.

And we don't need someone to tell us it's not our story

Absolutely, Absolutely, Now, as we mentioned earlier in mindset,

again, I think it's due to my mindset.

I look at these issues that I have experienced all my life by being a woman.

, and as you correctly mentioned by being a migrant.

So I experienced not only sexism, but also experience racism.

And because I guess in my mindset, I look at all of this and I feel I'm absolutely

no way in a position that I want to feel a victim of this, despite we are

victims, but I don't wanna sell victimize.

So what, what, what are the options?

What can I do?

What can I really do?

And I feel that you can do two things.

You can do your own small and very important battles every

day in your ordinary life.

And that's crucial.

And I always feel very sorry when I see other women not willing to do

the little step in the battle because unfortunately, ideally the society

will change and should change when a man are gonna make the change.

But we can't be here waiting for that to happen.

So let's, you know, , let's try to make the changes ourself.

So in your ordinary life is the little battle that are very, very crucial.

And then the second option is you do something big about it.

So either you are the judge of the Supreme Court in the States, Ruth

or, something big or you make art.

And I feel for me, having the possibility to have a voice as a woman

and be heard, it is been a really, one of the most empowering thing ever.

In on the top of this, be a migrant and feeling that I am creating my little

space in this country where there's a consistent group of people that are re

currently want to come and see and I hear my stories, I think it's been, uh

something that I don't know, it just warms my heart so deeply then literally

brings me to tears all the time.

And I feel it's almost like a breakthrough in the generations.

Cuz I'm the first migrant in a time my generations.

Definitely the first woman migrant.

And I, every time I go on stage, I feel I have this lines of ancestors

and my mom, my grandmothers, and great, great grandmother and,

uh, whatever opportunities they didn't have, I do have them now.

And, I have no intention to pass my life without grabbing those opportunity.

And what is that opportunity?

Is to have a voice and express it and be heard.

And I think because all the victimization and the abuse and the patronization,

then we had over generations as women.

I'm not just talking about my own family.

I mean, everybody, women now in the contemporary world, the

finally things are changing.

We have the opportunity to tell our stories, to inspire other

women, to inspire men as well.

Uh, let's do it.

And I, that's where I am in my life.

That's was my drive is really.

No, and that's great.

And it's, it's, there's a way to just use your voice, you're right.

And, and do things and for you making art.

And then if, and people who don't do that either.

there's still ways to do things, and one thing I try to do is

encourage people to find those ways.

That work for them, you know?

And it could have just been donating to a cause

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Exactly.

you know, sometimes.

Yeah.

And that's like an easy step or donating clothes to a place like a, a women's

shelter or volunteering there, whatever.

There's so many things to do that can make an impact in the way you can.

And I think the way you can being the other people, but the way you Stefania

are doing it is really extraordinary too.

It's like exposing your story to help others and that's, I think

one reason I wanted to talk to you today was just cause I see you doing

that and it's really inspiring, so thank you for doing that too.

Vulnerable act of sharing your story.

Even in comedy, it's very vulnerable

Yeah, no, absolutely.

I, I mean, I, I love comedy and I think when you have a story, that

you want to share, if you manage to make it in a comedic environment,

in a comedic way, it can be way more powerful is that, you know, we all

say about, you know, the tragic comic, uh, that can be really touching.

And I, and that's what I'm trying to do.

And I, I think also just to make clear, to inspire people, you don't

necessarily, as a woman, need to talk about issues that are related to women.

I think that any type of artist is aspiring, as I said, just the fact

that you make art is inspiring.

I, I'm choosing to because I feel it's about time and I feel because I care

about words so much and vocabulary, , things that are said have a different

part than when they, they aren't.

So, I think for me it's very important.

And for me, I'm a big advocate of really changing the little things,

the little gestures, the little vocabulary around, around women.

Uh, one of the things I mentioned in my show is, , some of the

patronizing undermining comments that you still get as a female doctor.

Like, oh, the pretty doctor, the, the young lady.

Was like, well, you don't refer to male doctors like that do youi?

Oh, I, you know, once I, I spoke with a patient after, literally saved

his life and then two days later it was awake and I said, I introduced

myself and said, I bet you don't remember, cuz you were very unwell.

They said like, oh, I never forget pretty faces.

I'm like, no.

Maybe you also remember that I'm very intelligent and actually saved your life.

What I really said was, well, I would appreciate if you remember me, for

also my knowledge, my intelligence rather than just the space.

, but if

Yeah.

you saw it, and it comes from everybody, patients and colleagues

and, uh, the treatment of female doctors is still significantly different

than the treatment of the doctors.

Anybody talks about this?

No.

No.

And, very often, it's just people will say, oh, but it's just a compliment.

I'm like, well, maybe call me by my title and not by the pretty

one So, this is, obviously these are, these aren't the main issues.

But the thing is, if we don't change the small things, how are

we gonna change the biggest things?

So I'm a big advocate how very, very important to use the right vocabulary

and even these things and then sound, oh, they just a little to bit subtle.

Whoa, , they, they, the foundation, right?

, so yes, big passion here from my side about this stuff.

That's great.

And I think, yeah, again, just using your voice in the way you can is,

and, and even on the small things, and you're right this, a lot of, you

know, there's that whole idea that you die by a thousand cuts, but I think

if you heal a thousand cuts, you can save things too, you know, and, and

they're just all small things, so,

I agree.

That was a lot of, I think, good wisdom there, but do you have any

advice or mantra that you'd like to share otherwise, and I just ask people

like if they have something that they like to share with an audience?

So,

in

a moment of difficulties, I always tell myself

"It's possible ,you making it home".

And this comes from a longstanding experience in running.

And I've done a lot of like races and stuff.

And every time I was in a difficult situation, like, I'm making home.

I'm making home.

It's possible.

It's possible.

And then I learned over the years, that is like the best mantra.

It's very simple.

It's possible.

It's possible.

So yes, here we are.

That's my mantra.

Huh.

Nice.

Cool.

And then let's go with the last set of questions.

These are called the Fun five.

And I just ask every guest these same set of questions.

What's the oldest T-shirt you have and still wear?

it's a dance t-shirt I bought like, roughly 20 years ago.

I still use, it's uh, one of my favorite t-shirts.

I, I love dancing and I dance very often.

I've been dancing for years.

So it's a dance t-shirt.

It say something very simple dance.

But now dance as, , as the noun, dance as a verb.

And I always think it's very fascinating because it's, it is almost like a comment

like, or dance and, you know, yeah, dance.

I tell myself very often, like, dance, just dance,

Cool.

All right.

And if every day was really like Groundhog's Day, like during the

pandemic, it just seemed like for a lot of us, I mean, you were, you had

a different experience with being in the medical profession and with the

acting, but for a lot of people it was just the same thing over and over.

What song would you have your alarm clock set to play every morning?

Again, I'm just an helpless, uh, optimistic.

My favorite song that I play all the time.

And uh, that would be the one I would have an alarm clock is unstoppable by Sia,

like, oh, I'm unstoppable, I'm invincible.

And I love this sentence.

She says, I don't need batteries to play.

Oh, I love it.

I love it.

So yes, that would be my song.

Cool.

Yeah, and you can dance, so that's great.

And then coffee or tea or neither?

that even a question?

You remember my nationality?

Yeah, I was gonna say I, the last I was, well

it sounds weird, but like, I had a guest from Italy last year.

Or his, his background, his Italian origin.

He's, he is born in England, but uh, he definitely had no

problem saying it was coffee.

Oh, totally.

It's like espresso forever.

cool.

Yeah.

And you like it strong, right?

I mean, I'm sure the coffee here to an American seems strong, but

it's not like, go to Italy if

you

Yeah.

No, no, absolutely.

I, I always travel with my little coffee espresso machine, because no

offense, this country's got a lot of very good things, but not of coffee.

Cool.

All right, and then this is one of my favorite questions cuz it really

just gets at who someone is in a way.

But can you think of a time that you laughed so hard and you cried like

recently or a long time ago, or just something that always makes you crack

up?

, , , it's actually my dog I realized, cause I got my vi some video.

My dog is in Italy with my family.

So I got some videos on my dog, which I replay very often.

So basically might have replayed like hundreds of times.

And I always laugh and I always think, wow, if people feel it towards my

jokes, the way I feel towards my dog, , I'm good for the future, I'm good.

It's just the funniest, the sweetest.

Then to analyze him, it's like, why is this so funny?

Maybe I can learn something from him.

I just think it's just naturally playful and is in the moment.

It's not trying to be funny.

Uh, maybe here, here, the lesson . Yeah.

Yeah.

. Nice.

All right.

And the last one, who inspires you right now?

This question is very difficult actually, cuz you're

talking to motivational freak.

So if you saw my library, I know any possible motivational

speakers from the last 25 years.

So, and then if it comes to artists and comedians, I don't wanna take anything

away from anybody, so I'm not gonna say names, but I think as a category of

human beings and professionals, I feel deeply inspired by professional athletes.

And I had and the opportunity to work with some of them as a, as a doctor.

Sometimes I work in sport match and stuff.

Lately there was a guy who got injured, professional athlete.

And I asked him, I said, what's your key, what's the key of success for you?

And he said, what?

I wake up in the morning and I tell myself it's possible.

I was like, okay, this is my quote too by way.

I was like, amazing.

That's also my mantra, but I thought, this is so right.

and and just to when you see them play and when you hear the stories and you

see how they talk to themselves when they are alone, when they're with others.

And you can see it's the mindset.

It's the discipline.

It is the passion.

It's what you tell yourself.

And, I'm a big believer tjat it's very important to put yourself in situation

when there is absolute silence.

Because when there is absolutely silence around you, you can hear to your own

voice is like your internal radio and learn what that voice tells you.

And if it doesn't tell you something that is empowering, then you have to change it.

Because once you have an internal voice, then it's empowering.

Then really everything is possible.

And you can see this with the professional athletes all the time.

So I'm extremely inspired by them as a category and I'm aspired to, to learn

some of the way they are for my own good.

Yeah, no, I think that's, yeah, that's super.

And my, I'll just mention it cuz I think he's amazing.

But I have a nephew who plays baseball and he inspires me and I'm

not a very athletic person at all.

I would, I don't even know why I said very, I'm not an athletic person, but

his dedication at 18 years old and since he was about five is amazing.

And so I totally know what you mean.

They just, they do it, you know, and they face difficulty almost every

game or match they do, some situation.

So that's super.

That's really cool.

so how do you want people to find you?

And if they heard this and want to do something, what do you want them to do?

Right.

Uh, my website, stefania licari dot com (stefanialicari.com) and,

uh, I'm on Instagram at licari stefania (@licaristefania).

I'm on Twitter.

My next show, is at the Vault Festival on the 17th of February,

and I've got a couple of previews on the 5th and the 6th of February

at the Hope Theatre in Islington.

That's about it.

There is any TV producer listening to this podcast, here we go.

I'm free after the 17th of February, clearly.

All right, cool.

Yeah, and if they're listening, maybe give me a shout too.

Okay, cool.

. Well, thank you so much, Stefania.

I really appreciate you doing this, and it was

Thank you.

Likewise.

Thank you for your time.

Thank you.

Thanks for listening.

You can learn more about the guest and what was talked about in the show notes.

Joe Maffia created the music you're listening to.

You can find him on Spotify at Joe M A F F I A.

Rob Metke does all the design for which I'm so grateful.

You can find him online based.

Searching Rob M E T K E.

Please leave a review if you like the show and get in touch if you

have feedback or guest ideas.

The pod is on all the social channels at at More Than Work pod (@morethanworkpod)

or at Rabiah Comedy (@RabiahComedy) on TikTok, and the website is more than

work pod dot com (morethanworkpod.com).

While being kind to others, don't forget to be kind to yourself.