Co-founder and CEO of Gotham Greens, Viraj Puri is on a mission to transform the way we approach our food system by growing greener foods in better ways. Through his work at Gotham Greens, Viraj and his team help to build and operate sustainable greenhouses in cities across America. Today, Viraj and Harry dive deep into the urban farming industry and why it is critical to educate a future workforce of engineers, scientists and farmers to ensure its continued success. They touch on Viraj’s inspiration for launching Gotham Greens, revitalizing communities and innovating for a sustainable future.
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04:27 – Harry welcomes Co-founder and CEO of Gotham Greens, Viraj Puri, to discuss his circuitous path to vertical farming, clean technology, and the origin story of Gotham Greens
18:46 – Early lessons Viraj learned and where he gleaned inspiration along the way
22:01 – What Viraj would have done differently if given the chance
24:55 – Educating talented new engineers and farmers in the vertical farming industry
28:57 – A mission-driven organization
32:43 – Viraj reflects on his personal growth as a CEO and mentors who have helped him grow along the way
36:01 – What the future holds for Gotham Greens
40:24 – A tough question Viraj has asked himself recently and what excites him most about the future of vertical and urban farming
45:03 – Harry thanks Viraj for joining the show and lets listeners know where they can learn more about Gotham Greens
“One can obviously deploy technology. But then one has to also ensure that there’s a captive marketplace for those goods and services.” (11:17) (Viraj)
“That’s what’s really cool about urban farming, broadly speaking, is that it touches on so many different socioeconomic themes such as public health, environmental education, urban planning. And then, of course, you can do it the way we do it. It’s much more commercial scale and a meaningful amount of food production and supply chain transformation.” (13:20) (Viraj)
“We were and continue to be a mission-driven organization that’s deeply rooted in this ethos of trying to make the world a better place and to use fewer resources to produce healthier food.” (24:30) (Viraj)
“I think that curiosity is a really important attribute or characteristic for strong leaders. And I think the fact that we built the business from the ground up has necessitated that sense of curiosity.” (34:00) (Viraj)
Gotham Greens Website – https://www.gothamgreens.com/
Gotham Greens Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/GothamGreens/
Gotham Greens LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/company/gotham-greens-farms/
Gotham Greens Twitter – https://twitter.com/gothamgreens/
Gotham Greens Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/GothamGreens/
Viraj’s LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/v-puri/
Cultivatd’s Website – https://cultivatd.com/
Cultivatd’s Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/cultivatdco/
Cultivatd’s Twitter – https://twitter.com/cultivatd
Cultivatd’s Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/cultivatd/
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Mentioned in this episode:
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Speaker:that's spelled C-U-L-T-I-V-A-T-D.com,
Speaker:or click the link in the show notes. Yeah, I think a lot of it
Speaker:ties back to personal values, you know, that were inculcated in
Speaker:me at a young age. I think professionally, I definitely
Speaker:came at it a little bit more from a climate change and sustainability
Speaker:lens, just reading about extreme drought conditions
Speaker:and water shortages, and that agriculture is the largest
Speaker:consumer of land on the planet and the largest consumer of fresh water and just
Speaker:all these other issues.
Speaker:Welcome
Speaker:to the Vertical Farming Podcast, weekly conversations with
Speaker:fascinating CEOs, founders, and agtech visionaries.
Speaker:Join us every week as we dive deep into the world of vertical
Speaker:farming with your host, Harry Duran. Vertical
Speaker:Farming Podcast, Season 5. Welcome back. If this is your first time listening, I'm
Speaker:sure you are in the right place. This is the one where we speak to
Speaker:fascinating CEOs and founders of the leading vertical farming companies from
Speaker:around the world. I'm your host, Harry Duran. I'm coming to you from
Speaker:Minnesota, specifically Brainerd, Deerwood,
Speaker:northern Minnesota, parts of the state that are relatively
Speaker:new for me. I've only been a resident of Minnesota for probably about
Speaker:3 years, and it's been fascinating as someone who grew up in New York and
Speaker:lived in LA and very familiar with big cities to acclimate
Speaker:myself to life that's lived at a more, uh,
Speaker:slowed-down pace. For me, it's, it's sometimes a little different.
Speaker:So I have the benefit of being up here by a lake
Speaker:and, uh, wanted to make sure I got this episode out and share
Speaker:a little bit of what's been happening in my world. Also attended
Speaker:the Podfest conference in Orlando, and I'm actually
Speaker:looking forward to making time to get to the
Speaker:indoor AgTech conference in New York City at the end of June. That's
Speaker:still 50/50, so if you do see my face, then
Speaker:obviously I was able to make it. But I do have some past guests and
Speaker:friends that are going to be attending, so given that my family is in
Speaker:Yonkers, I may actually try and see if I can make it there. So if
Speaker:I do, it'll be nice to connect with you. In case you missed last week's
Speaker:episode, I spoke with Vonnie Estes, VP of Innovation at the Produce Marketing
Speaker:Association. She's driven by a passion for agriculture sustainability and
Speaker:wanting to make an impact on serious issues such as climate change
Speaker:and broken supply chains. And we had a really fascinating discussion on all things
Speaker:plant pathology related, educating consumers on vertical farming, promoting
Speaker:diversity. Well-received interview and episode,
Speaker:so make sure you check that out. This week I speak to Viraj
Speaker:Puri. He's the CEO of Gotham Greens,
Speaker:and Gotham Greens is on a mission to transform the way we approach our food
Speaker:system by growing greener foods in better ways. Through his work at the
Speaker:company, Viraj and his team have helped to build and operate sustainable greenhouses in
Speaker:cities across America. And today we dive deep into all
Speaker:things indoor farming, and we talk about why it's critical to educate a future workforce
Speaker:of engineers, scientists, and farmers to ensure its continued success.
Speaker:I always like to dig deep and uncover the inspiration
Speaker:for all these amazing guests that I have on the
Speaker:show as to what brought them to this point. in their
Speaker:careers. And we talk about that with Viraj, with Gotham Greens,
Speaker:and how they're really doing great work revitalizing communities and innovating
Speaker:for a sustainable future, which is something that's been top of mind for
Speaker:me lately. So I know you're going to enjoy this conversation. Okay, without further
Speaker:ado, let's jump into this conversation with Viraj. So Viraj
Speaker:Puri, CEO of Gotham Greens, thank you so much for joining me on the Vertical
Speaker:Farming Podcast. Thank you, Harry, for inviting me to be on the podcast and for
Speaker:your interest in Gotham Greens. Yeah, it's been
Speaker:interesting to see your growth and, and the fact that you've been in the space
Speaker:for such a long period of time. And, and there's probably lots of things that
Speaker:you've seen. I don't know, we're, we're new at the time when you just got
Speaker:started with Gotham Greens, but, uh, just to, to orient
Speaker:the listener, where is home for you right now? New York City.
Speaker:Okay. That's where I live and work, and that's where Gotham Greens was founded
Speaker:and has been headquartered. in since 2009. So specifically
Speaker:Brooklyn, New York. Long time. And you are right. We were one of the
Speaker:early adopters and sort of pioneers of this new
Speaker:generation of indoor farming companies across North
Speaker:America. Did you, were you raised in New York? Did you grow
Speaker:up there? I did. I split my childhood between New York and
Speaker:Chicago and a few other places. Certainly did not grow up on a farm. I
Speaker:grew up in cities and in a few suburban areas at best.
Speaker:So agriculture was certainly very, very new to me.
Speaker:I grew up in Yonkers. Home is Minneapolis now, but grew up in Yonkers, just
Speaker:outside New York City. So I was actually born in El Salvador, but came here
Speaker:when I was a year old. I say came here, my parents brought me here.
Speaker:So the city has always been not only my backyard, but I lived there as
Speaker:soon as I had the opportunity to. So really have a strong connection to the
Speaker:city. And it's interesting to see how, if you're
Speaker:just raised there, there's a different lifestyle. And I'm seeing that interesting juxtaposition
Speaker:being in the Midwest because my partner here would say like, how come you don't
Speaker:like— you're not as friendly or you don't say hi to strangers? And I'm like,
Speaker:when you grow up in the city, it's just a different way of life. And
Speaker:I'm wondering if you've noticed that in your travels, if there's a certain way
Speaker:you carry yourself as a New York City native that you find
Speaker:different than how people carry themselves when they're in other parts of the country
Speaker:or world. Look, New York is certainly a very
Speaker:unique place. It's the largest city in the US. It's the
Speaker:most cosmopolitan. the home to so many
Speaker:major industries, uh, finance,
Speaker:entertainment, media, fashion, other consumer products.
Speaker:So it, it's an exciting place to be. It attracts an enormous
Speaker:amount of resources, enormous amount of human talent. It
Speaker:certainly is, is a trendsetter in many ways. So when we set out to
Speaker:create a pilot-scale indoor
Speaker:farming project, uh, we figured what better place to do it than in
Speaker:New York City. Mm-hmm. I mean, New York is clearly not an agricultural mecca.
Speaker:But it is a city that, like I said, attracts a lot of capital,
Speaker:attracts resources, talent, media attention, and focus. And
Speaker:we had so much conviction and continue to have so much
Speaker:conviction around the value proposition for
Speaker:indoor farming as a major solution to many of the food
Speaker:systems issues that we face. So what better place to do it in
Speaker:New York City to really make an impact and publicize it
Speaker:and evangelize it and advance the mission of it.
Speaker:And I continue personally to be— personally and professionally to be
Speaker:inspired by the city every day, its
Speaker:people, its culture, its resiliency. It's a hustle
Speaker:though. It's a hustle. It's not for everybody.
Speaker:Yeah. But look, I— our company now
Speaker:operates greenhouses in 6 states and I spend a lot of time
Speaker:in other states, Rhode Island, Illinois, Colorado,
Speaker:California. We just announced new projects in Georgia and Texas.
Speaker:So I travel a fair amount and each
Speaker:project, each location has to be tailored to its
Speaker:unique sort of geographical, economic, cultural context for sure.
Speaker:I'm not one of these people who believes that it's New York City or
Speaker:nothing. I see a lot of positive attributes
Speaker:and, you know, the kind of diversity of
Speaker:locations that we have across the United States. That's what makes our country amazing.
Speaker:I'm curious about some of your background. Did you think when you were in
Speaker:college that you'd be ending up working in
Speaker:vertical farming? Absolutely not. Nowhere
Speaker:close to it. I mean, could not— I mean, if you had asked
Speaker:me to pick 1,000 possible professions, I guarantee
Speaker:you that lettuce farmer would not be one of them. So,
Speaker:uh, no, very circuitous path. Look, from a young age, I was always, even
Speaker:pre-college, I was always interested in, in the natural
Speaker:world, in the environment. And through
Speaker:college, I started gravitating toward, uh, you know, this interest
Speaker:in clean technology, broadly speaking, as a sector.
Speaker:Yeah. Because it was, it would, it was really meeting my personal and professional
Speaker:interests in using technology as a solution
Speaker:for so many of the world's sort of complex problems.
Speaker:I was really drawn to renewable energy at first. I spent the early part of
Speaker:my career working in that field. Yeah. Mobility was
Speaker:getting really interesting and exciting, city planning and
Speaker:making our cities more resource efficient. And it was really through
Speaker:a combination of environmental engineering and clean tech jobs,
Speaker:both in the US and overseas, that I sort of stumbled into controlled
Speaker:environment farming and just became enamored with
Speaker:the technology. Thought it was a technology
Speaker:that had so much potential and that it had already been commercially
Speaker:proven in so many parts of the world, but it just wasn't being done on
Speaker:this, on meaningful scale, at least in the US.
Speaker:And it certainly wasn't being marketed to consumers
Speaker:and other stakeholders as this really compelling form
Speaker:of farming. And given sort of the interest in
Speaker:New York City and in other places around more
Speaker:localized eating, more local supply chains, you know, these things were
Speaker:manifesting in like farmers markets, the popularity of farmers markets, right? You
Speaker:know, when I was growing up, no one was like, oh, let's meet at the
Speaker:farmer's market, right? But suddenly the Union Square Farmer's Market in New York City was
Speaker:the hottest place to be, right? Yeah. going into
Speaker:restaurants and seeing the name of farms on the
Speaker:actual menu. Yeah. It's all very new. Or
Speaker:hipsters in Brooklyn starting with chicken coops.
Speaker:And there you go. People are talking about beekeeping and it's suddenly hip and cool
Speaker:to be talking about livestock, right? Yeah. And your
Speaker:street cred in Brooklyn was enhanced
Speaker:exponentially if you know— If you had a
Speaker:rooftop garden. Exactly. I figured, you know, a great
Speaker:way to get popular is to become an urban farmer. No, I'm joking. But, but,
Speaker:but, you know, I was, we, we did recognize these, these consumer trends, right? Yeah.
Speaker:So I think that's the important thing that we recognized. So, you know, one
Speaker:can obviously deploy technology, but then one
Speaker:has to also ensure that there's captive marketplace
Speaker:for those goods and services, right? And we felt like the time was
Speaker:right to launch a, a
Speaker:consumer-minded brand around local farming and
Speaker:specifically in controlled environment agriculture. So
Speaker:yeah, that was back in 2009 and it's, we've come a long
Speaker:way, uh, you know, from one sort of rooftop greenhouse
Speaker:in Brooklyn to, you know, one of the largest, um,
Speaker:you know, indoor farming companies in North America. So it's been a really fun, fun
Speaker:journey. Any chance you happen to know someone by the name of Ben
Speaker:Flanner? Yes, I know Ben well. He started
Speaker:Brooklyn Grange just around the same time that we were starting
Speaker:Gotham Greens. So yeah, our paths have crossed many times over the years.
Speaker:Really, a lot of the great work that they, that they do over there.
Speaker:What's really cool about— and, you know, sometimes urban farming and vertical
Speaker:farming or indoor farming get used synonymously or interchangeably,
Speaker:but they're really different, right? Because controlled environment farming or
Speaker:indoor farming doesn't necessarily have to be urban, right? Yes. It tends to
Speaker:be, but it doesn't have to be, right? And urban farming doesn't
Speaker:have to be indoor, right? It can be outdoor. It doesn't have to
Speaker:be vertical. And what Ben and his team have done, in
Speaker:addition to commercial-scale rooftop
Speaker:seasonal production that they do on their rooftops, they've really
Speaker:been able to host so many visitors,
Speaker:and create this sort of agritourism component to urban farming, and
Speaker:educate so many youngsters and adults alike on the
Speaker:benefits of urban farming, the services that it provides
Speaker:the built environment in terms of stormwater capture and creating
Speaker:pollinators, and just making our cities more green. Yeah. But also
Speaker:showcasing opportunities to improve diets and incorporate
Speaker:fruits and vegetables into more diets and create more healthy supply chains. And So that's
Speaker:what's really cool about urban farming, broadly speaking, is that it touches on so
Speaker:many different themes, socioeconomic themes, public
Speaker:health, environmental education, urban
Speaker:planning. And then of course, if you do it sort of the way we do
Speaker:it, it's much more kind of commercial scale, meaningful amount of
Speaker:food production and supply chain transformation. So fun
Speaker:story, before I got into the world of podcasting, I used to
Speaker:work at JPMorgan Chase and then E-Trade, and Ben and I were
Speaker:coworkers. So he was working at
Speaker:E-Trade, we were working in the E-Trade marketing department. And I remember he was like,
Speaker:oh, he was telling the group, he's like, I'm gonna leave, I'm going to Brooklyn,
Speaker:I'm gonna start this like rooftop garden thing. We're like, okay, like good
Speaker:luck with that. And it's so funny, like, you know, because he just
Speaker:followed his passion, you know, and he just realized this was something that was really
Speaker:calling to him. And it's so funny to just kind of see how it come
Speaker:full circle. And then me eventually making my way in a roundabout
Speaker:way into connecting with the industry. And just, I actually haven't
Speaker:had a chance to reconnect with him, so it'll be fun when we have that
Speaker:conversation just to see how interesting
Speaker:paths our lives have taken. Definitely. That is a small
Speaker:world indeed. So we're talking 2009 and
Speaker:who were you looking to or who was inspiring you? I
Speaker:know I want to hear your origin story about how you connected with Eric.
Speaker:So, you know, maybe 2008, what's happening in your world
Speaker:like that this is becoming front and center for you? And talk a little bit
Speaker:about what that origin story looks like for Gotham.
Speaker:Yeah. So like I said, I was
Speaker:working in environmental engineering. I'd worked with a variety of
Speaker:firms, both in New York and overseas on various
Speaker:large-scale, medium-scale, small-scale solar installation
Speaker:projects. I was tinkering around with biodiesel. I
Speaker:was I worked on a fuel-efficient cookstove project in
Speaker:East Africa for about a year. I was building passive
Speaker:solar structures in a remote part of the Himalayas
Speaker:for a year. And I was getting ready to go to graduate school to get
Speaker:a degree and further my credentials and skill
Speaker:sets. And I started working at an environmental engineering firm in New
Speaker:York, and I got staffed on a small greenhouse project. It was a demonstration-scale
Speaker:greenhouse, staffed as a project manager to help build something
Speaker:called the Science Barge. which featured a hydroponic greenhouse. And I was
Speaker:really interested in learning more about that technology and working with it. And it was
Speaker:while working there that I really saw the potential for
Speaker:larger-scale hydroponic controlled environment
Speaker:agriculture in the US. And we were definitely
Speaker:at that time, even if it was sort of the mid, mid-early aughts,
Speaker:there definitely were some large-scale tomato-producing
Speaker:greenhouses that were already very established. in many parts of the
Speaker:US. There were very few producers of leafy greens indoors.
Speaker:And we really saw an opportunity. Eric and I, who
Speaker:was our co-founder and now serves as our CFO,
Speaker:both of them started to really explore the size of the market and explore
Speaker:the inefficiencies of the supply chain and how centralized the
Speaker:incumbent supply chain was and continues to be on the West
Speaker:Coast of the US, which requires all this highly perishable
Speaker:product to be shipped thousands of miles to reach consumers. And
Speaker:just the inefficiencies of that supply chain were screaming to us
Speaker:that it was sort of ripe for transformation and ripe for disruption. And
Speaker:so we started tinkering around with the business plan. I met our
Speaker:third partner in the business, Jen Freymark, who is
Speaker:a globally renowned plant scientist and really an expert in
Speaker:hydroponics. Yeah, went through a very diligent process of
Speaker:building a business plan, building a case, and had just a lot of
Speaker:conviction in the idea. So I decided to forego graduate school,
Speaker:quit my job, and launch Gotham Green. So the first couple of
Speaker:years were challenging because we really wanted to do something in New York City for
Speaker:some of the reasons I mentioned earlier. I thought if we had limited resource to
Speaker:build a pilot-scale project, then it really needed to be in New York,
Speaker:right, to really get the attention of retailers and
Speaker:restaurateurs and investors and the media and
Speaker:the general public. And that hypothesis did
Speaker:prove to be a good one and a true one. We got just
Speaker:global media attention for building
Speaker:this high-tech greenhouse on a rooftop in Brooklyn with the
Speaker:entire Manhattan skyline sort of in the background. So
Speaker:we had film crews and every news station and front page
Speaker:article of the New York Times dining section and all the rest of it. So
Speaker:I do think that that really helped not only advance Gotham Greens, but
Speaker:frankly speaking, helped to advance the entire sector more broadly speaking.
Speaker:And so we're really proud of that role that we've played and continue
Speaker:to play. So yeah, very unique origin story, but a really fun one.
Speaker:Any chance— I'd be remiss if I didn't ask if you got to connect with
Speaker:Dickson Despommiers? Oh, of course. Yeah,
Speaker:yeah, yeah. We met him early on, even before he had written his book. Oh,
Speaker:really? Okay. Yeah, I mean, he had certainly been teaching vertical farming
Speaker:to some of his students and the concept, and he had— yeah,
Speaker:but yeah, I think I first met him in 2006.
Speaker:Wow. That was before he was sort of even, you know, known as the Godfather.
Speaker:Godfather. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We go back a long way, and I continue to be
Speaker:in touch with him. Since you were so ahead of the curve, and
Speaker:obviously there's been stories of people who also started, you know, at
Speaker:or a little bit later and did not have success
Speaker:and then subsequently folded. And so as you were seeing
Speaker:companies coming up in the space, what were some of those early learnings that you
Speaker:had other than the, you know, the tomato growers that you
Speaker:mentioned? Was there anyone else you could look to for inspiration, or was
Speaker:a lot of this just really using the experience the team
Speaker:had to figure this out as you go along?
Speaker:We definitely had people who inspired us, right? There's no doubt about it, right? We
Speaker:don't have the kind of hubris or any sort of arrogance that we did this
Speaker:ourselves. But at the same time, there weren't a lot of examples to
Speaker:look at, right? The industry was so in such
Speaker:nascent stages, right? It was in such a nascent stage. It was so immature. A
Speaker:lot of the expertise we gleaned and came from overseas, frankly speaking, you
Speaker:know, spending time in Western Europe, the Netherlands, other
Speaker:places that are far further along in terms of commercial deployment of
Speaker:indoor farming systems. We really relied on Jen and her
Speaker:network, some of her university connections, all the research and
Speaker:development that she had done and her teams have been doing.
Speaker:I mean, we were— look, we really were building the plane as we were flying
Speaker:it, right? Yeah. There wasn't a lot of precedent. I mean, a lot of the
Speaker:big vendors even didn't wanna work with us because they were like,
Speaker:you're not supposed to build a greenhouse on a rooftop, right? That makes no sense.
Speaker:And it's not gonna work for a variety of reasons, right? So we had to
Speaker:find crazy enough partners who were willing to even embark on this journey
Speaker:with us. I remember getting permits and approvals was next
Speaker:to impossible from the city of New York, the building
Speaker:department, finding a company that would give us an insurance policy, finding
Speaker:a bank that would lend to us. It's 101 stuff, right? It's 101 stuff, right?
Speaker:And look, I have respect for all
Speaker:fellow entrepreneurs. I mean, it takes one to know one.
Speaker:And as an entrepreneur, you just do not ever stop working.
Speaker:And so I have a lot of empathy and sympathy for all
Speaker:sorts of entrepreneurs. But if one just starts some sort of a business, like say
Speaker:a restaurant, which is a very hard business, don't get me wrong.
Speaker:90% failure rate, I think. Restaurants that have come before you. So there is a
Speaker:playbook of sorts. Yeah. Right. This is who you get your supplies from. This is
Speaker:how you structure it. This is how you write the lease. This is how you
Speaker:finance it, et cetera, et cetera. This is how you write a job description.
Speaker:Right. But when it comes to building a
Speaker:commercial-scale indoor farm in New York City, there was really
Speaker:no blueprint to follow. Yeah. So that made it
Speaker:really, really challenging, but it made it all that much more rewarding.
Speaker:Now, with the benefit of hindsight, we certainly would've done things differently, but I,
Speaker:look, I think, I do think that that's been part of our, success is that
Speaker:we've, we had to learn a lot as we went along and it
Speaker:really forced us to walk before running
Speaker:and really just figure out how to make the
Speaker:greenhouse profitable, how to make it sustainable, how to ensure very
Speaker:reliable, consistent crop yields, how to create sort
Speaker:of good worker welfare standards and, and all these sorts of
Speaker:things, I think really helped us over the
Speaker:over the past decade. Anything, obviously hindsight
Speaker:20/20, but anything you would've done differently in those first few years
Speaker:knowing what you know now? Yeah. I mean, well, so many things. Look, I
Speaker:think one of our biggest strengths is having a diverse
Speaker:team, right? The fact that I have co-founders, the fact that
Speaker:we have complementary skill sets, I think that's something that's
Speaker:incredibly important. And with the benefit of hindsight,
Speaker:would've even brought on even more people early on. I mean, we were also
Speaker:naturally, you know, we were resource constrained, right? Yeah. So we couldn't go
Speaker:out and necessarily hire all the great talent that we
Speaker:would've wanted to have hired. And I think in hindsight, maybe we would've stretched more
Speaker:to bring in more sort of personnel. I mean, I, look, I think scale
Speaker:is definitely something that with hindsight, we would've
Speaker:made the facilities bigger. But again, we were also resource constrained, right? So we built
Speaker:a greenhouse as big as we could make it, you know,
Speaker:15,000 square feet, which is tiny in the scheme of, uh, you know,
Speaker:agriculture. It was all we could afford, right? It's all the rooftop could accommodate.
Speaker:But literally within 2 months of opening, we were completely
Speaker:sold out of all the produce, right? The demand was, you know,
Speaker:10 times that of what we were able to produce. And we were like, man,
Speaker:this just took 2 years of our life to build this thing and it's already
Speaker:at capacity. So I think with the benefit of hindsight, we would've probably made
Speaker:the facilities a little bit bigger, but again, pros and cons, and it
Speaker:really allowed us to hone in on our unit economics and our operating
Speaker:procedures and really how to run a
Speaker:very sustainable enterprise, which has served us well. I imagine
Speaker:also there's— you're hiring for jobs that previously
Speaker:didn't have like a job description, like you're creating jobs. And
Speaker:because you're so early, because you're
Speaker:sort of a bit of a pioneer in the space, it's not like
Speaker:all these people were out there doing these types of jobs that you were looking
Speaker:to fill. I think some of them, it's almost like you were creating them as
Speaker:you were going along. Yes, certainly. That's certainly the case.
Speaker:And there was just a lot of people that we had to really convince
Speaker:to join Gotham Greens, to come onto this journey with us.
Speaker:Again, I think we benefited from, as we mentioned
Speaker:earlier, that urban farming kind of had this edginess to it and this
Speaker:hipness to it. So I think that certainly attracted some great people to the
Speaker:organization. And And really, this commitment to environmental
Speaker:sustainability also spoke to a lot of job
Speaker:applicants and people who are still with us today. We were
Speaker:and continue to be a mission-driven organization that's deeply rooted in
Speaker:this ethos of trying to make the world a better place and to use fewer
Speaker:resources to produce more food, to produce healthier food, to
Speaker:incorporate more plants and fruits and vegetables into
Speaker:one's diets, and to have— making a positive impact in the communities in which we
Speaker:locate our facilities. So I think that resonated certainly with a lot of people.
Speaker:But I think, I think more broadly speaking, you are touching on a theme that
Speaker:I think is an important one, which is for this sector to really
Speaker:grow and thrive, certainly at the pace and the scale that we
Speaker:all, that we all want. You know, we are going to need a lot more
Speaker:skilled personnel, right? Yeah. I think there is a dearth of,
Speaker:of technical talent that really has the combination of
Speaker:horticultural and engineering expertise that, that the sector really
Speaker:requires. And there are so many
Speaker:companies now in our sector that are competing for very little talent,
Speaker:frankly speaking. And so we've been trying to spend time with
Speaker:various universities and research institutions and just really
Speaker:encouraging them to create more curriculum and create more
Speaker:undergraduate degrees and classes and graduate for that matter, but certainly
Speaker:undergraduate to teach people with, with the
Speaker:necessary skill sets to to immediately join a
Speaker:commercial-scale indoor farming company. I do think that that is,
Speaker:you know, a real area of need and an area that, that's very, very
Speaker:vital for this overall sector's success. And a lot of people are trying
Speaker:to out-automate, right? To say, hey, well, we'll just, we'll just create a lot of
Speaker:automation. We'll create robots and conveyors and, and all kinds
Speaker:of automated systems. But even those systems require
Speaker:Human intervention. A fair amount of technical skill to operate properly
Speaker:and service and maintain to ensure
Speaker:that we're getting the intended or the, yeah, the intended outcomes and
Speaker:generating some sort of a return on investment. So again, could not be a
Speaker:bigger evangelist for this industry, but I do think, you know, kind of
Speaker:human resources and human capital is certainly
Speaker:a challenge for the industry right now, collectively. And it seems like an
Speaker:opportunity for a conversation to happen, especially we, we
Speaker:had a brief opportunity to connect at Indoor AgCon. And I'm
Speaker:wondering, as some of these conferences come back online, if there's an
Speaker:opportunity for tracks or specifically conversations around
Speaker:education, resources, skill sets,
Speaker:trainings. I think all the things you just mentioned, if there's an opportunity there to
Speaker:just educate the need and just bring it up as an industry.
Speaker:So people can start to continue to have these conversations. Yes,
Speaker:I would love to see more educational opportunities in
Speaker:these industry conferences. I think more tracks around actual
Speaker:technology know-how is really important. Obviously there's a
Speaker:competitive aspect to it too. People obviously want to keep a lot of their
Speaker:trade secrets to themselves. I think engaging more with the
Speaker:academic community is an
Speaker:important way to go about this as well. We, we have a
Speaker:handful of land-grant universities that have controlled
Speaker:environment agriculture programs, University of Arizona,
Speaker:Ohio State, Cornell, UC Davis,
Speaker:among others. Yeah. You know, there's more than just the ones that I named.
Speaker:And I think those faculty members and administrators
Speaker:are also seeing the amount of investment that is going
Speaker:into this sector. globally, just broadly speaking in
Speaker:agtech, right? But even more
Speaker:specifically into indoor farming. So I think that's also signaling to
Speaker:them that this is an industry that's growing and we
Speaker:need more talent, right, to serve that industry. So we
Speaker:actually co-located one of our newest greenhouses with the
Speaker:University of California, Davis. We bought the land from the university and
Speaker:entered into a partnership with them to collaborate on research and development
Speaker:and staff training, sort of
Speaker:training of graduates and getting them involved into
Speaker:our organization. So we're really— we see a
Speaker:very bright future ahead there. They're one of the most
Speaker:prestigious and well-known agricultural universities in the world. So
Speaker:that's really cool. And we're continuing to do work with University of Arizona,
Speaker:Ohio State, Cornell, and others. So, and I know a lot— many of our peers
Speaker:are as well. So really happy to see that. I think that's going to be
Speaker:very key. One of the things you talked about was Gotham Greens' mission,
Speaker:Raj, and I can see from the jobs you've held
Speaker:previously and the things that were attractive to you in terms of
Speaker:what you want to study and spend your time on. Can you talk a little
Speaker:bit about why that's important for you and where that came from? Is that just
Speaker:something you've always— it's been inherent in you as a child, or is that
Speaker:something your parents instilled in you? Where's that sense of mission
Speaker:come from? Yeah, I think a lot of it ties back to personal
Speaker:values, you know, that were inculcated in me at a young
Speaker:age. I think professionally, I definitely came at it a little bit
Speaker:more from a climate change and sustainability lens,
Speaker:just reading about extreme drought conditions and water
Speaker:shortages and, you know, that agriculture is the largest
Speaker:consumer of land on the planet and the largest consumer of
Speaker:fresh water. And just all these other issues around environmental
Speaker:sustainability and just reading a lot of books early on, you know, our
Speaker:dependence on nitrogen and the impacts that it has
Speaker:and negative impacts that it has, that is in terms of runoff, in terms of
Speaker:acid rain, ozone issues. And the fact that, you know, just a
Speaker:small percentage of all the nitrogen that we, that we apply to farms is actually
Speaker:making it into our food. Hmm. You know, the fact that over 40%
Speaker:of global carbon emissions are
Speaker:attributable to some sort of farming,
Speaker:livestock, clear-cutting of land, grazing, these types of
Speaker:things. And then that's sort of juxtaposed with all the
Speaker:human health issues, right? Yeah. That the agricultural system is
Speaker:causing. I mean, we're feeding billions of mouths each day, no
Speaker:doubt, but we're also increasingly unhealthy. I mean, firstly,
Speaker:we still have close to a billion people who are malnourished, right? And then And
Speaker:then on top of that, we've got, you know, just people's— we
Speaker:spend more money on treating diabetes in this country than the entire USDA's annual
Speaker:budget, right? Wow. You know, just staggering stuff, you know, and
Speaker:60% of the calories that are consumed by Americans are coming from highly
Speaker:processed foods, right? So, you know, how we produce food, how we
Speaker:feed ourselves is just such a significant part of the climate crisis, such a
Speaker:significant part of public health issues that I
Speaker:was really excited and inspired to be part of the
Speaker:solution. I don't believe indoor farming is just this silver
Speaker:bullet, right, that can solve all these complex issues, but it certainly can
Speaker:address some of them, at least. And then, you know, it was
Speaker:after writing the initial business plan that then I started getting
Speaker:exposed to other issues around food justice,
Speaker:food security, food access, you know, the correlation between these
Speaker:high diet-related diseases to poverty and And how
Speaker:it's so centered around many urban areas where there's just a
Speaker:lack of fresh fruit and vegetables. And then I started getting exposed
Speaker:more to just issues that our cities face, you know, issues
Speaker:of stormwater runoff, the urban heat island effect, and all these other things. So,
Speaker:you know, started to look at it really from a 360-degree view and
Speaker:see that just with our modest sort of
Speaker:greenhouse, we can be really creating positive
Speaker:change and inspiring others to create positive change. So that, yeah, that just really
Speaker:started to make its way into our business plan,
Speaker:our ethos, our culture, our mission. And it's just really
Speaker:grown from there. And recently it manifested into becoming a certified
Speaker:B Corporation. Oh, congrats. From, yeah, our conversion from
Speaker:a corporation to a public benefit corporation, which is just
Speaker:a really high standard of environmental, social
Speaker:governance and creating a lot of making sure that we're really
Speaker:serving multiple stakeholders. and not just simply
Speaker:shareholders. So yeah, we're really excited to
Speaker:continue making a positive impact. Can you talk a little bit
Speaker:about your growth personally as a CEO? I imagine this is
Speaker:the first time you've had to start and grow something of this scale
Speaker:that's getting even bigger as we speak. And I'm wondering what that journey has
Speaker:been like for you. It's been an amazing one. It's been a hard
Speaker:one. It's been a challenging one. It's been one that's
Speaker:It's been phenomenal. Like you said, I've never been a CEO before. I started the
Speaker:company in my 20s, or maybe I was just about 30 at the time, but,
Speaker:but point being is I learned a tremendous amount about what it
Speaker:takes to be a leader. I continue to learn stuff every day. I
Speaker:know that there's a lot that I don't know, and I think that's really guided
Speaker:me well. We've brought in so many great people who have subject matter
Speaker:expertise in different facets of the business. And we would
Speaker:not have been able to grow the business without them. Yeah. I mean,
Speaker:just navigating that world of finance and
Speaker:fundraising and food safety and
Speaker:sales and marketing and distribution logistics, you know, every day,
Speaker:every month, every year has been just such a tremendous learning opportunity too.
Speaker:But it's great. You know, I've really learned the business from the ground up,
Speaker:Mm-hmm. which I think has also served me and my partners really well. that
Speaker:we've had to really learn along the way. So we ask a lot of
Speaker:questions. I think that curiosity is a
Speaker:really important sort of attribute or characteristic
Speaker:for strong leaders. And I think the fact that we built the
Speaker:business from the ground up has necessitated that sense of
Speaker:curiosity. And I think that's something that has been
Speaker:fantastic. And just, you know, a lot of humility along the way has also been
Speaker:important. recognizing that so much we don't know,
Speaker:I think has also served us well. I mean, we've made so many
Speaker:mistakes too, right? I mean, just dozens and dozens of mistakes along
Speaker:the way, but I'm a firm believer that those mistakes
Speaker:make you a stronger leader and more successful going forward. How has
Speaker:your relationships as you've grown the company in the industry
Speaker:itself helped you, or are there you know, relationships you've had with mentors
Speaker:that have helped you grow along the way as well? Oh yeah,
Speaker:absolutely. But a lot, a lot of personal and professional mentors along the way,
Speaker:uh, friends, family, other people I've met, um, just through, through the industry,
Speaker:or broadly speaking, in kind of the sustainability
Speaker:sector, if you will. Yeah, other folks working in, in
Speaker:conservation, natural resource conservation, renewable
Speaker:energy. So I have some mentors that, that helped me along the way
Speaker:there. Other natural food entrepreneurs, that's been a really cool ecosystem to be a part
Speaker:of. Is, I mean, there's been so much transformation across
Speaker:consumer food and beverage, right? That I'm sure all your listeners are
Speaker:well aware of. You know, at the same time in Brooklyn,
Speaker:right, when the farmers markets and the beekeeping was getting, uh, was getting
Speaker:cool, I mean, so was kombucha and Greek yogurt and
Speaker:plant-based foods and things like that, right? So there's just such a strong
Speaker:cohort of other— Now it's cellular agriculture.
Speaker:Exactly, exactly. So it's been great to learn from
Speaker:other startup food brands as well. Yeah. And so
Speaker:for folks that are new to Gotham Greens, Viraj, can you talk a little
Speaker:bit about what your current roadmap looks like? I've been
Speaker:conscious of being more aware as I'm in the supermarket And I was in
Speaker:Whole Foods and I did see the Gotham Greens leafy greens
Speaker:and the pesto as well. So I was like, oh, okay, I have to make
Speaker:sure I try that in advance of my conversation with you. So I had a
Speaker:really good experience. But that's an awareness that we have as consumers
Speaker:that are looking for it. So I'm wondering if you could speak to what
Speaker:the current roadmap is for Gotham Greens in terms of expansion
Speaker:and what the plans look like for the future. Sure.
Speaker:So just a snapshot of where we are today. We,
Speaker:a decade after launching, we now have 9 greenhouse
Speaker:facilities across 6 US states, um, and counting with,
Speaker:with over 400 employees. So we own and operate
Speaker:greenhouses in New York, Illinois, Rhode Island,
Speaker:Maryland, Colorado, and California. Our
Speaker:products are primarily leafy greens, herbs, also
Speaker:some sauces and dressings and pestos that you
Speaker:mentioned, and they're currently available in almost
Speaker:45 states, approximately 3,500 retail
Speaker:stores around the country. And so it's one of the
Speaker:largest networks and one of the largest footprints of
Speaker:greenhouses and sort of indoor farming in North America.
Speaker:And what's really next is continuing to expand this footprint of
Speaker:greenhouse facilities. So We're adding a facility in Colorado
Speaker:to expand our production capacity for the Mountain West
Speaker:region. We have broken ground
Speaker:on new projects in Texas, which is outside
Speaker:Dallas, and in Georgia, outside Atlanta, as
Speaker:well as expanding some of our existing greenhouses in both
Speaker:Chicago and Providence, Rhode Island. So we're going to be
Speaker:doubling the size of our greenhouse capacity in less than 12 months
Speaker:from, from about 600,000 square feet today to
Speaker:over 1.2 million square feet by the end of
Speaker:2022. So upon completion, that'll be
Speaker:then 12 high-tech greenhouses across 8 states.
Speaker:This is just such a large market. Yeah. And it's
Speaker:so underpenetrated by indoor farms that,
Speaker:that we just think there's room for growth for a lot of different companies.
Speaker:But yeah, we're, we're probably among the fastest growing and have the largest footprint, but
Speaker:Again, we can't do this ourselves, nor do we want to do this ourselves. I
Speaker:think this is an industry that's going to have
Speaker:multiple brands and multiple key players servicing such a
Speaker:large market. And given all the headwinds that the incumbent industry
Speaker:is facing in California and Arizona, right? So these are the open
Speaker:field farms, and I'm sure many of our listeners are very familiar with
Speaker:these kind of mega trends, but the water situation's not getting
Speaker:better. The freight and logistics situation's not getting better. Yeah. Food safety is a
Speaker:challenge. The reliance on migrant farm workers is a
Speaker:challenge. And I think a lot of the retailers and the institutional food
Speaker:buyers are all pretty convinced that the future
Speaker:is in much more decentralized kind of indoor production.
Speaker:And now it's really incumbent on us and our cohort peers
Speaker:to now rise to the occasion to meet this tremendous opportunity
Speaker:and actually get these facilities built and get them operating. And
Speaker:produce the consistent, reliable crop yields that are expected of us, right?
Speaker:And to do so in a financially profitable way. I mean, we certainly got our
Speaker:work cut out for us, but I certainly see a very bright future ahead.
Speaker:So speaking of your cohort of peers, how happy are you to have the
Speaker:conferences coming back online and that ability to have those connections? I know you
Speaker:were on a panel or two at Indoor AgCon, and there's an event coming up
Speaker:in New York City. Are those events important for you to have
Speaker:those conversations with peers and then see what else is happening in the space?
Speaker:I think so. I think so. I think they have, they certainly have
Speaker:value. I think it's good to get out there and meet people and
Speaker:see what others are up to and have good conversation. And I
Speaker:also just think from, from 2 years of staying
Speaker:at home and being quarantined, it's really nice to get out and see people again,
Speaker:exchange notes, and just be inspired by the work that's being
Speaker:done by the entire sector. It's hard to get to all the events because there's
Speaker:so many of them, but yeah, to get out to a couple of them a
Speaker:year, I think is fantastic. A couple of questions as
Speaker:we wrap up. What's a tough question you've had to ask yourself recently?
Speaker:Pace of growth, questions around pace of growth, like how much is too much, how
Speaker:aggressively to grow, how measured to grow. I think that's a huge question. I think
Speaker:we're, more broadly speaking, in the financial markets,
Speaker:there's been a lot of turmoil. I think This is a capital-intensive
Speaker:industry, right? Yeah. That I'm sure you know, and many of your listeners
Speaker:know, right? So we can't really talk about scale without talking about
Speaker:capital, I think, in this business. And I think just over the last 5
Speaker:or 10 years, the investment community has
Speaker:been very pro-growth oriented. And
Speaker:even if that comes at the expense of sustainability and
Speaker:profitability, and we're starting to see a little bit of a shift, right? Capital has
Speaker:been cheap. Now it's getting a little bit more expensive. we're seeing a little
Speaker:bit more of an emphasis on, at least certainly in public markets, what they say
Speaker:is more value stocks and less on growth stocks. And
Speaker:so I think that is something that we think a lot about, how aggressively to
Speaker:grow from a financial fiduciary standpoint, but also
Speaker:from an operation standpoint. I mean, we have the benefit of running a
Speaker:decentralized multi-site model for
Speaker:the past 7 or 8 years. So I think we certainly
Speaker:have this inherent advantage, but it's hard running a decentralized operation. So I think some
Speaker:of those questions, you know, around that have been, you know,
Speaker:there's no right answer, but those have been some of the more challenging ones to
Speaker:sort of grapple with. So in terms of what's coming up
Speaker:on the horizon and what you have planned, is there anything else
Speaker:you're looking forward to or where you go to learn more about what's happening in
Speaker:industry, or are you kind of like just heads down? You know, you got your
Speaker:plate full with what you have on your roadmap. We've touched
Speaker:upon a lot of it. I think that we really just have a lot of
Speaker:work cut out for us. Like I said, as an industry collectively, us and many
Speaker:of our peers have very ambitious expansion plans. We're seeing millions
Speaker:of square feet of different types of indoor facilities getting built.
Speaker:And, you know, I think there's a huge responsibility. We've garnered a lot of media
Speaker:attention, you know, a lot of investor attention. And now I just,
Speaker:again, think we need to deliver now. I think that's really, really important collectively.
Speaker:So I think that's our biggest focus is on execution, right? Personally, we don't really
Speaker:have any— I mean, we announced these new projects, right? So that's big news for
Speaker:us. Doubling our footprint is a huge undertaking and
Speaker:not one that we take lightly. We think there's a lot of room to grow
Speaker:within the leafy green category. So we're sort of focused there right now. I know
Speaker:some of our peers are launching some new items, going into different
Speaker:categories like berries. But again, we think there's a lot of room to grow in
Speaker:the leafy greens. So no new sort of shiny objects for us,
Speaker:just really putting our heads down and focusing on execution.
Speaker:And given just the specific nature of this audience, is there any
Speaker:ask you would have to the listeners or to your colleagues or peers?
Speaker:Anyone who might be listening to this episode? Well, please continue supporting the
Speaker:sector. I think it's one that can, can play a really important
Speaker:role globally in making our food systems more
Speaker:resilient, more sustainable. Yeah, you can certainly do a
Speaker:lot by, you know, kind of voting with your dollars, right? So spending,
Speaker:spending money supporting the products that our sector produces, I think, is
Speaker:also something that you can certainly help out on. But also, don't be, don't be
Speaker:afraid to ask the tough questions. I think the tough questions also make us better
Speaker:at what we do. You know, I think there's also an obligation for us to
Speaker:continue to push the envelope in terms of environmental sustainability.
Speaker:I think just a lot of people believe that indoor farming is just
Speaker:synonymous with environmental sustainability, and that certainly is true,
Speaker:but it also still would come down to the actual means and
Speaker:methods of how you're producing the food, how you're handling water, how you're
Speaker:handling energy use, and things like that. Yeah. So I think just to be
Speaker:responsible corporate stewards, I think it's also really
Speaker:important to continue to push the envelope, you know, in terms of sustainability.
Speaker:But no, I really appreciate your audience. You know, when we started this business 10
Speaker:years ago, I mean, I know podcasts may not have been around, but
Speaker:just indoor farming and vertical farming and controlled environment
Speaker:farming, I mean, it was not well known.
Speaker:No. In personal or professional settings, you know, I would get bizarre
Speaker:looks from people when I told them what I was up to, sort of like
Speaker:that story you were telling about Ben. Yeah, yeah. Leaving E-Trade,
Speaker:you're like, oh, that's— this guy's nuts. And now fast
Speaker:forward 10, 11 years to see the fact that we're on this
Speaker:podcast. Yeah, it's crazy. There's others like it. There's industry conferences
Speaker:specifically for indoor farming. Just goes
Speaker:to show what a tremendous opportunity there is and how far
Speaker:the industry's come. So it's awesome that you have this audience, and,
Speaker:um, it's been really fun. I appreciate you having me on. Yeah. Well,
Speaker:congrats to you and the team, and I applaud you for being an early pioneer
Speaker:in the space and paving the way for, for a lot of companies who
Speaker:probably, you know, were inspired by you and the work that you've done at Gotham
Speaker:Greens. So thank you for taking the time to come on. gothamgreens.com if
Speaker:anyone wants to learn more. Anywhere else you want to send people to connect with
Speaker:you or the team? Well, thanks for having me on, Harry. I really appreciate it
Speaker:and your audience's time. And yeah, gothamgreens.com is fantastic.
Speaker:And then we've got some social channels that can be accessed through, through the
Speaker:website. We'll make sure to include all those in the notes as well. Thanks for
Speaker:your time. I really appreciate it, Viraj. All the best. Thanks. Thanks again
Speaker:to Viraj for coming on the show. Always appreciate when
Speaker:my guests take an hour of their very, very busy schedules to share
Speaker:their story. I never take that time for granted. Full show notes are
Speaker:available at verticalfarmingpodcast.com. Special thanks to our season 5
Speaker:title sponsor, Cultivatd. If you are looking into a vertical farm and don't know where
Speaker:to start or which technology would suit your needs, reach out to them today.
Speaker:Best of all, their service is free because they work on behalf of their partners.
Speaker:Learn more at cultivatd.com, and that's spelled C-U-L-T-I-V-A-T-D.com.
Speaker:Yes, you know it already. Leave out that last E. Podcast production and marketing
Speaker:provided by Fullcast. Learn more at fullcast.co.
Speaker:About how a podcast can be beneficial for your marketing needs.
Speaker:As a reminder, if you are enjoying this show, please leave us a rating and
Speaker:a review at ratethispodcast.com/vfp.
Speaker:Regular listeners can testify to the fact that I will be sure to read these
Speaker:out on future episodes. Tune in next week for my conversation with
Speaker:Max Lossall. He's the co-founder and CEO of Agvolution.
Speaker:Until we meet again next week, here's to your health. Cheers. Thanks
Speaker:for listening. To read the full show notes for this episode, which
Speaker:includes any links mentioned in the episode, as well as a full show
Speaker:transcription, visit verticalfarmingpodcast.com.
Speaker:There, you can sign up for our email list to be notified when new
Speaker:episodes are published.
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