In this episode of the Contractor Freedom Podcast, Jason W. Phillips sits down with Jennifer Smith, HR manager and culture champion at Phillips Home Improvements, to unpack why most contractor hiring problems are not really people problems. They are clarity problems.

Jason and Jennifer talk through what has to happen before a job posting ever goes live: defining the role, knowing your core values, identifying the ideal candidate, building clear key result areas, and creating a compensation plan that rewards the right outcomes.

They also discuss the cost of bad hires, why culture must be guarded at the gate, and how values-based hiring can attract the right people while repelling the wrong ones.

For contractors who are tired of hiring out of desperation, this episode is a practical reminder that the goal is not just a bigger team. The goal is the right team.

Topics Covered:

Contractor hiring, values-based hiring, culture fit, team building, leadership, role clarity, key result areas, KPIs, HR for contractors, hiring mistakes, Contractor Freedom, Jason W. Phillips, Jennifer Smith, Phillips Home Improvements, Contractor Prison

Takeaways:

• The central premise discussed in this episode is the notion that hiring challenges stem predominantly from a lack of clarity regarding candidate requirements and organizational values.
• A contractor's struggle to find suitable employees often indicates a deficiency in defining the ideal candidate profile and the associated role expectations effectively.
• It is imperative for businesses to articulate their core values clearly, as these values not only influence hiring practices but also shape the organizational culture and employee satisfaction.
• The episode emphasizes the importance of establishing key result areas for each role, thereby ensuring that potential hires are evaluated based on their ability to meet specific performance outcomes.
• The significance of aligning compensation with desired behaviors and results is highlighted, as it serves to motivate employees to achieve their best performance in accordance with company objectives.
• Ultimately, clarity in both values and role expectations will facilitate the recruitment of individuals who align with the organization’s mission, thereby fostering a harmonious workplace culture.

Now, when a contractor says, I can't find good people, what do you think that really means?

Well, I think a lot of times it means that in the past, they maybe haven't either fished in the right pond or they haven't had a clear idea of who they are.

So if you don't know what shape of employee you need for the role, if it's vague, you can put any shape in there.

Look, when there's no clarity, anything can walk in the door.

Many years ago, someone was fired for values that those others would come around, those that had been taking the brunt of it or shouldering the load, they would say, what took you so long, Jason?

Welcome to the Contractor Freedom Podcast.

I'm Jason Phillips.

If you're tired of feeling trapped by.

The business you worked so hard to.

Build, you're in the right place.

As a multimillion dollar contractor and founder of Contractor Freedom, I've learned that freedom comes from mastering yourself, leading others, and building systems.

Each week, I'll help you build a business that serves your life.

Because the goal isn't to build a.

Bigger prison, it's to build a business that creates freedom.

Welcome to Contractor Freedom.

Let's go.

Today we're talking about why most hiring problems aren't people problems, they're clarity problems.

And today, joining me is Jennifer Smith.

She's a senior leader, HR manager, coach, culture champion at Phillips Home Improvements.

And she gets to decide who comes in the door at Phillips Home Improvements.

Welcome, Jennifer.

Thank you.

I'm glad to be here.

So I want to, I want to suggest that most people problems aren't people problems.

That they're really clarity problems.

And, you know, people think that they have a people problem.

But, you know, when a contractor says, I can't find good people, what do you think that really means?

Well, I think a lot of times it means that in the past, they maybe haven't either fished in the right pond or they haven't had a clear idea of who they are or a clear idea or a combination or a clear idea of who they're looking for, you know, who is the ideal candidate for the position that they're looking for.

And even beyond that, they may have never really defined the role properly.

To know, you know, how do I even know if someone fits?

So, wow, that you just opened up a whole can of worms.

Like, ideal candidate, not just candidate.

Yeah.

An ideal candidate.

Yeah.

Have you guys thought about, you know, what is an ideal candidate for a role?

We're gonna, we're gonna get more.

We're Gonna get more into that.

So, Jennifer, before you even post a job listing, talk to a candidate, what has to be true before any of that can even happen?

Yeah, well, I, I need to know, first of all, what does the role require?

You know, what are those skills, experiences, personality traits, behaviors that I'm looking for?

They're going to make this person successful because we're all about bringing people into our companies and making them successful in roles.

Right.

So that's the first thing.

Oh, I thought it was about.

We're just overloaded and we need relief.

So we need someone that can fog a mirror.

No.

Is that not what it is?

That's a big no, right?

No.

I tried that in the early days and that didn't work out too.

That did not work out too well for me.

Yeah.

So what happens when someone fills a role, hires someone for a job?

They don't have a clear role or clear values.

Like what happens, what happens there?

Well, many times you have a mismatch.

You know, what we need is not what they have to provide.

What we have to provide is not what they need.

And you get, what's really sad about that picture is you get not just two unhappy people, the owner and the person that was hired, but the company feels it.

The rest of the people in your company have pains because something's not fitting or something's missing, something's uncomfortable.

It's like the bad shoe that Cinderella wore, you know, or that the stepsister wore that didn't fit.

You know, it makes me think about something that happens at every single one of our in person events.

Whether it's a summit, whether it's a sales boot camp or a leadership retreat or management workshop, whatever it is.

There's this aha moment that more than one of the owners have in the business when they're, they're like, oh my gosh, I just realized I've got the wrong person.

And it could be, it's a wrong.

It could be they're wrong for that role.

It could also be they're wrong for that company.

And you know, what's the fallout when someone realizes that?

Yeah.

So your, your culture hurts, your culture suffers.

Usually things don't get done that need to be done.

Things that shouldn't be done are done.

You know, you feel the tension on the team.

You lose time, you lose money, you lose quality.

It's not a good thing, you know,.

And it's, it's hard to get out of that mess.

It is because, because 90, I'm gonna say 90.

Not 100.

But 90% of all the contractors are very big, soft hearted people.

That's right.

And when they realize that that person that they've got in that wrong role could be a relative, it could be a friend, it could be a church friend.

And those breakups, I'm not calling it a breakup.

Yeah.

Those aren't easy.

No.

When you put the wrong person in a role too many times, it ends up in a broken relationship.

And if you've just hired from your little pond of your family and friends like so many contractors do.

That's what I did initially.

Right.

It ends up poisoning relationships.

That's so true.

So, which, that's not exactly what we're talking about today.

But it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a cousin.

It's, It's a cousin.

Yeah.

So you know, here's, here's, here's the thing that, okay, if you got the kids toy and you've got, you know, the square peg goes in a square hole, the round peg goes in round hole and the triangle goes in the triangle.

What's the other one is a star.

Jennifer Star goes in the star hole.

Something like that, whatever.

So if you don't know what shape of employee you need for the role, if it's vague, you can put any shape in there.

That's right.

And everything that you just mentioned, underperformance.

So let's talk about what, what typically happens with underperformance.

And because you know, you're hr, you see perspective on this.

But we, let's, let's look at how this staircase, this, that goes down, not up, works.

You're not clear on the role, so you don't have a clear job description or key result areas or KPIs.

So now you've got an employee that comes in, wants to pour their heart into their brand new job that they love so much and they have a fuzzy target.

There's no way for them to say, oh, I'm succeeding at work.

That's right.

Other than is the boss yelling at me today or mad at me.

So what happens is now, now they're trying their best, but they're missing expectations.

They don't know clearly what those expectations are, partially because the, maybe the manager, the owner doesn't really have clarity, him or herself, but there's disappointment.

That's right.

Then that disappointment starts to surface in mannerisms, tone of voice, just all of the interactions until eventually the owner or the manager, we'll say the manager for now has to have a, an accountability conversation for underperformance and put someone on a PIP plan.

Right.

I know you guys have dealt with this.

Okay, listen, contractor, I know you've dealt with this.

Yes.

So you put them on a PIP plan.

Well, that didn't go real well.

So now that employee leaves that conversation not with hope of a better future, but with, oh, I'm about to lose my job.

Okay.

I'm trying harder.

And then the lack of performance, the gap in performance still remains or gets bigger.

So there's another conversation.

So now this pattern of negative conversations begins to be expected on both sides, and it just spirals down, down, down until someone quits or gets fired or there's a blow up.

And that's absolutely terrible.

And I feel like we as business owners and anybody in the HR role, in talent acquisition, in hiring, has to do a better job on making sure that people fit.

That people fit the role.

We have to know the role.

And now I got into something else there part of that is how you handle a crucial conversation, which.

That's a different topic, maybe for another podcast episode, but I've seen this play out.

Unfortunately, in my early days, I did everything wrong for you guys.

So you don't have to do everything wrong.

Okay.

I did all the stupid stuff.

So you don't have to.

That's why you're here today.

But back.

But back to Jennifer, You know, you'll take whatever shows up if you don't know what you're looking for.

That's right.

But I want to talk about something that prompted us for this episode anyways, which was something that's been on my radar, which was values.

And you mentioned to me recently, or someone mentioned to me recently it was.

Someone mentioned it to me that it was someone you were onboarding.

And I said, hey, what attracted you to.

To this company and this opportunity?

And this person said, it was your core value, Faith.

And I'm like, awesome.

That made me feel good.

Right?

Yeah.

And so later I asked you, I said, jennifer, how often does that happen?

And you said basically all the.

Yeah, almost every time.

Yeah.

And since that time, you've kind of done an internal survey.

I have.

Right.

Tell us about what you found.

This was so much fun.

So I wanted to know, do we really have people that are drawn by our culture?

Was this particular new employee a one off?

You know, are we clearly communicating our culture and is it sticking?

Is it attracting the people we want to attract by that?

And so I sent out a message independently in chat to each individual employee And I just asked them, hey, when you came on board and.

Or you were looking to come on board a company and you were answering a job posting, what was it about the Phillips posting that really drew you to us and to this.

To this place?

You didn't tell them, hey, was it the faith that drew you?

I didn't.

I didn't mention anything in the question about values, culture, mission, vision, none of that, because I wanted it to be very objective.

I wanted it to be a true measure of how they felt, because I'm gathering data here, Right?

I'm gathering data.

So I was so thrilled to see that the answers clustered around about six amazing things.

One of them, one side was the way we do business, like our reputation, our ability to grow in a position, a professional atmosphere.

That was one side of what I got.

But the other side was all about.

About, hey, I want to make a difference somewhere.

Your.

Your place of business looked like a place where I could make a difference.

Hey, I wanted to go where the culture was healthy, and I wanted what you were saying your values are.

I wanted a place that valued faith, family, and focus, because those are my values.

And I saw those answers cluster around those things, and it excited me because I realized we've been successful in communicating what's most important to Phillips, to not only the world out there, but our employees.

Many of those employees have been with us for years.

So for them to be still saying that, that means we're continuing to communicate our mission, vision, and values successfully.

And so I've been on cloud nine about that since I sent out that little poll, because I feel like we're doing this thing, we're serious about it, and I want that for every listener today.

Everybody who's watching today, I want that.

Well, you know, it's easy to write our core values down, but we want to be who we want to be in reality, who we say we are, 100%.

And it's one way, if we feel that way about us, but when others see that, that, you know, it's really happening.

Right.

Yeah.

You mentioned that there was one employee in particular that had a scorecard.

Yes.

On their companies that they were considering.

Tell us a little more about that.

Yes.

Okay.

This was.

This was so much fun and unexpected.

I love surprises.

So this particular employee I think of as an influential, persuasive, kind of, you know, person.

Very happy.

Go, lucky.

And so when I asked them the question about what drew them to the company, I never expected a decision matrix.

He had created this spreadsheet on paper handwritten of about 10 or 12 different things he was looking for in a company.

Growth opportunities was one, warm leads, et cetera, those kind of things, values that match mine, and so on.

And then he had three different companies he was considering across the top of each column.

And so he gave them not only a score, but a comment or two in each window to share how are they performing in each area.

And in each area, Phillips was winning.

So not only in business, but in the areas of business that were personal.

Okay, we want a business that's personal.

And so we were winning on all of those aspects.

And it was exciting to me.

But what was really surprising there is that I'd forgotten his third letter above the midline is C. Because he has some detail and you don't think about that sometimes.

There are things that we don't even remember about.

And it was exciting to see that he was using data to make his decision about who he wanted to spend the next part of his career with.

And it was us.

Yay.

I love hearing that.

I love, love, love hearing that.

And I don't get the benefit of hearing, you know, all of your applicants tell why they tell why they came, but.

Right.

You know, it makes me think about something.

I want to share a quick little aside here about.

I'm just going to say 15ish years ago, and I was, I was praying, I was dreaming of the future and I felt, God, tell me that growing my people skills or that people skills in general were going to be a huge key to my future success and impact.

And it wasn't too long after that that I discovered psychometric assessments like DISC and others, and I went on a rampage and took everyone that I could, that I could find and settled on discovery.

It changed my life so much that I, I went and got certifications.

And like Jennifer, you got to do this.

So Jennifer now has multiple certifications in this stuff.

And because this is an absolute key and, and you know, we teach a lot about this at every single event because we believe that this is one of the most powerful and easy to learn skills to help you be a better leader, manager, teammate, spouse, parent, all of everything.

Absolutely.

And so you, you hear Jennifer talking about his C. Well, that's, he has a, a level of conscientiousness that's above what we call the energy line.

Correct.

So.

And I might, I might mention something else if this is your first time tuning in to contractor freedom.

Well, I also have a home improvement company called Phillips Home Improvements, and Jennifer is the, the, the HR manager at Phillips Home Improvements.

So you'll hear me talking about our company.

And that's what she means.

She's not talking about contractor freedom at that point.

Correct.

So contractor freedom doesn't do home improvements.

So I thought it might add a little bit of clarity for everybody there.

So back to the values.

Okay, so.

So our very first core value at Philips Home Improvements is faith.

It's faith, family and focus.

And when we say family, we don't just mean like, you know, Jason's blood family.

Well, that we have a broader definition of that which will maybe share a little bit about.

About that later, but faith.

So we're leading our values with faith.

And you are, Jennifer.

You're weaving that into every job posting.

Absolutely.

Somewhere.

So, so what, what might that sound like or look like?

Yeah.

And on several other years, we've kind of been an honorable mention there.

And I mention maybe for our values such as faith, family and focus.

Or I may weave it in at the bottom where I say, you know, these are the, these are the things that we're known for as well as our core values of faith, family, and focus.

But I try to weave it in somewhere where it's.

If, if you're a discerning reader and you're the person we're looking for, it's going to catch your eye.

You will have already gotten through the behavioral pieces of that job posting.

Nice.

Yeah.

You know, okay.

Many years ago in my journey, I wasn't clear on our core values, and I was taking, I wouldn't say anything that walked through the door, but a lot of what shouldn't have been walking through the door.

Yeah.

And the.

I had a toxic environment.

That was one of the things that Jennifer, along with Joe, really helped turn it around and build on a new foundation.

Right.

And I'll be forever, eternally grateful for that.

But one of the.

Here's why.

Why is all this important?

Give you an example.

It's not just because, you know, I had a toxic environment and now we're literally, literally getting awards for ethics.

Not that we were unethical before, but getting awards for ethics and best place to work and honorable mention and all that stuff.

That, that's not to.

To brag by any means, but that is, is proving that what we set out to do is becoming true.

Yeah.

And, and here's, you know, a lot of guys, gals, they See stuff on social media and you know, you guys, a lot of you guys listen, you know, I love cars and spend a lot of crazy money on cars and all that stuff and, and that might get noticed, but when people come spend time and they come to one of our events or in person events, and they get to meet Jennifer and Joe, Josiah and the rest of the team, and they get to meet my wife and my kids, every single event.

When I ask contractors, hey, what was one of your takeaways?

I get something along these lines, you know, Jason, I don't need the house, I don't need the cars.

What I really want, Jason, I want a team like yours and I want a family like yours.

That's what the real value is.

That's what true success is, is to, is to build the family and the team.

And it's, it's not about, it's not about the money, it's not about the houses, it's not about the cars.

Those things are niceties.

And when people come, they see what's real success.

And what we're sharing today is foundational to making that become true.

Absolutely.

And, and think about this.

If, if, if you're not clear on who you are as a person, on who your company is and will be, then you're never going to hire a team, have a team that's going to champion your vision and your values the way you want.

And so when we lead with faith, you know what we're immediately doing?

There's people that see that and they're like, oh, no, we don't want to work for this kind of company.

Okay, fine, they immediately opt out.

We bless you.

But you're the wrong fit and you realize that you self selected out.

And that's fine.

It's actually good.

It's.

That's not only fine, it's good, it's great.

Right?

And, and it puts up there right up front who we are.

Now, again, the burden's on us.

We better, we better live up to our values.

That's right.

We better live up to our values.

So your value should cost you something.

Mm.

Are your values strong enough?

Are you convicted enough in your values?

And can you be bold enough to put them out there?

And look, ours is faith, okay?

Yours doesn't have to be faith.

But what do you stand for?

What do you stand for?

Put it out there.

It's like you're fishing out there in the ocean on indeed.

Or wherever you're fishing.

Your bait is going to catch something.

Do you want it to catch the.

Do you want it to catch the right thing?

Right.

Look, when there's no clarity, anything can walk in the door again.

Your warm body, you can do the job.

Oh, you've got.

You.

You worked at the.

For the vendor, you worked at the paint store.

You must be the ideal employee for us, for every role, because you know paint or you know shingles or you know, gutters, whatever it is, just because you've done it before, you must be perfect for us.

That's that general assumption.

Right.

And so.

So when you're not clear, but Jen, what.

What happens downstream when.

When.

When someone looks good on paper but they're really not a fit, what happens?

Well, a number of things can happen.

I'm thinking about several mistakes that I've made in the past.

We all have made them.

But sometimes someone walks in the door that doesn't have the skills and the experience, sometimes that's the issue.

And you continue then to have conversations, you continue to have mistakes, you continue to have issues, and you live on Hopium, so to speak, that this person will improve.

And you, You.

You continue to maybe even have warnings and those kind of things.

And it ends up maybe in a really negative situation where you have to let that person go.

And you've lost precious time, you know, with some candidates or some employees.

We've lost three months, six months.

How much is that six months worth to you?

How much is that three months worth to you?

And the money that you spent on this person, you know, the mistakes that were made and the reputation that you might have lost through that in that department.

So that's one example I'm thinking of then.

Sometimes it can be someone who just hasn't learned how to manage.

It could be a manager that maybe they're a great producer and because their resume showed you what an amazing producer they were or in some position, you saw them going through the ranks, but they come to your company and you realize this person have the people skills they need to encourage people or to hold them accountable or something like that.

And so then you lose the hearts of the people in that department.

You lose their confidence because they know you put that person there.

That's right.

Okay, there's another example.

And then I'm thinking about someone else who may be just one was not a culture fit because of some beliefs that couldn't be uncovered easily up front.

Maybe one person saw some warning signs, but there was so much talent there or the appearance of so much talent there that you just couldn't say no.

You were drawn to that person's potential for what they could do for your company and how they would elevate that department and bring in knowledge that we didn't have prior.

But the character.

Oh, my gosh.

Was the issue.

I could just.

Yeah, those are.

Those are my examples.

That reminds me, you know, one of our.

You know, honesty and integrity are not one of our core values.

We call those permission to play.

Yes.

Okay.

That's just being a good person.

Yes.

Many years ago, I had an employee come in.

He had come in from the Home Depot with a huge smile on his face, and he's like, I just got you this.

It's a passload nailer.

It's a nail gun.

I just got you this nail gun for free.

I'm like, oh, wow.

Would you win a contest?

What happened?

He's like, no.

I was going through the checkout and everything was in the car, and the lady forgot to scan it.

And I walked right out the door.

Oh, wow.

And he really wanted me to pat him on the back.

And I was like, oh, my gosh.

I said, okay, here.

We don't do that around here.

Yeah.

So I want you to get in your truck right now, and once you go in there and I want you to pay for that and bring me the receipt.

And that character issue kept resurfacing, and that person didn't make it.

Right.

But.

But this was one of the most gifted craftsmen we've ever had.

Hmm.

And sometimes we just.

What you said, Jen.

We cover.

We make excuses because of someone's talent.

We make excuses for other flaws.

Right.

And I don't care how good someone's talent is.

If.

If you.

If they're a bad team player, they're going to drag everybody down, and it's gonna be worse than you see from the top, worse than you can see from the top.

And you won't really know the true damage until they are finally gone.

True.

And it might cost you other employees as well.

Yeah.

It could cost you other employees and trust.

I'm glad you had that little piggy bank there.

I think it loses.

It makes you lose trust with your employees.

Your other employees.

Yes.

That we would tolerate that behavior.

We may not have known about it, but in the mind of that employee, they don't know that.

And think about.

Think about this.

Okay?

Let's just say there's three people doing the same job or whatever.

Maybe they're different jobs.

You know, you're doing your best every day, bringing your A game, trying hard.

And if someone else is sloughing off breaking the rules and, and they're not having, they're not held accountable for it and they still just keep getting, throwing a paycheck.

Is that fair?

No, no, no.

And that right there, if you don't deal with that, that means you're a weak leader.

That's hurting your team, it's hurting your credibility as a leader.

So, so Jen, you mentioned that candidates regularly tell you that their boss was, or owner was unethical or it was a toxic environment.

Yes.

Now we could say, yeah, that's because they're leaving the job.

Okay, what's your take on all that?

Can you tell us a little more?

Yeah.

You know, sometimes it may be something as simple as a promised, you know, incentive is coming or something and it never comes.

Or it could be a violated core value where we say it on paper, but we're not living it out.

And sometimes it's just a matter.

A toxic leader can be somebody who just tolerates toxicity in others.

It can, it can look lots of different ways and it can even be someone who is not leading, someone who just wants to be a buddy and maybe spreads toxicity.

You know, I guess rumor mill kind of an environment and isn't leading, isn't being the example, setting the example for the department.

It can look a lot of different ways.

But I see so often people leave bad managers.

You know, that's a saying.

People don't leave a job, they leave a man.

That's right.

Right.

So, and look, Mo, most, most, not all, but most business owners are fast paced people, not good with the details.

And even the ones that are not the fast pace, if they're the more conscientious type, the business tends to be overwhelming.

Right.

And inevitably almost everyone that I talk to, including myself, has made the mistake of, oh, I need to get with them for their review.

I promise them a raise.

I promised them an incentive package at month after month after month and it doesn't happen.

And what happens is your credibility just goes down.

So, so let's, let's, let's circle back here to, to the values.

Okay.

Okay.

We can see clearly that having someone on the team that doesn't share the core values and a lot of, a lot of companies have, you know, commitment, excellence or growth or whatever, if you're not identifying this stuff during the interview process to the best of your ability.

Right.

You can't, there's certain questions that you can't ask.

Right.

They can give up information and sometimes they do willingly, but you can't coerce them.

Right.

Especially when it's things about, you know, about religion.

Right, right.

Things like that.

Okay.

Okay.

Your job, Jen, is to be the guardian of the culture at the gate for a company.

Yes.

And.

And if.

If you are wearing the hiring recruiting hat at your company, I don't care what role, if you're the HR manager, if you're the executive assistant, if you're the office manager, admin ops manager, or the owner, or the owner, spouse, whatever, your job is not just to find talent.

Your job is to guard the gate, the culture gate.

Because the more years I'm in business, the more I realize it's all about the culture.

Leads are important.

Cash is important.

People are important.

And if you have a bad culture and mismatched values, it's going to drag everything, absolutely everything down.

So, you know, Jennifer, thinking about the gatekeeper, how do you.

How do you.

How do you think about your role?

You know it.

I know you have a personal mission in life.

I do.

So tell us more about that.

Yeah.

So my personal mission is to help other people find their fit, to find their purpose in life.

You know, when I was teaching, that was what it was.

When I was leading women's ministry, that's what it was.

I wanted to help people find their place.

And here at Phillips, it's just been a continuation of my life's mission to help people find their fit.

And I feel that as we bring people in and we share not only our core values, but we're looking for people that get it.

They understand what's required of a role, they want it.

They're doing the things that show that they're in, eager to do well in their role.

They have the capacity to do it, meaning the bandwidth in their life, mentally, physically, emotionally, spiritually.

And they're humble, hungry, and smart with people.

As we look for those things, we can often, as the gatekeepers, not only let people in that meet those requirements and that we see fall into those categories, but we can keep people out who don't, and we can send people out who violate them.

And I have found that anytime you find someone in your company where there are issues, if you will go back to your core values and to those other items, get it, want it.

Capacity to do it.

Humble, hungry, smart with people, you will inevitably see 1, 2, 3, 4.

You'll see categories that are being violated when we measure against those things.

And truly, they're more than what's on paper.

They're what's written on our hearts.

Because we speak them when we stand, we speak them when we sit, we speak them in our meetings, we speak them at quarterlies, all of that, we live them higher.

Fire, promote love.

Yes.

By those then we really create the culture that's consistent with what we, we want to see.

And so as a gatekeeper that means I keep out the wolves and sheep's clothing.

I look to dig out the golden people to find where it is, where, where are those extra skills and talents that we didn't even know we needed yet, you know and, and I'm also looking for those ideal candidates who have it in spades culturally.

And I'm also asking questions that are not, they're open ended, they're not yes or no questions, they're questions about the ways they've behaved in the past because those are great predictors for how they'll behave in the future.

And asking those questions helps us to guard that culture.

For example, one of the questions I love to ask Jason when people come in is tell me about a time when you had a much loved process something or a project you were really married to, you loved and because of business needs changing.

Or maybe a leader came in and said hey, we're just had a, had a storm, got to change gears or spring is coming, got to change gears.

This, this, this project is no longer relevant or whatever.

You know, how did you behave moving forward?

Or you see a neighbor who is exhibiting a toxic trait that your company really has identified, doesn't match their culture, what would you do next?

Or your leader, your manager asks you to do something that you believe is unethical, what's your next step?

And then ask those layering questions.

You are going to be the gatekeeper of your company by asking the heavy hitting, hard hitting open ended questions that really get to the heart of what makes a person tick.

Yeah Jennifer, that's amazing.

And for you guys that are tuned in today, you can see this isn't just about can they do the job?

No.

Can you do this process?

Do you have this skill?

Do you know this software package?

Can you run this tool?

Look, the skills in, in home improvements, most of the skills are easily acquirable for the right person.

That's right.

What's what you can't change is their personal core values and uncovering and making sure there's a fit.

Well that is talent and their values.

And by the way Jennifer in our, in our coaching program, for those of you that are not in the coaching program, as you know the, the second week of the month she does a zoom training on these topics.

Additionally every every Friday she has an open mic, you know, ask the expert.

So everybody in the coaching program gets access to Jennifer and just, you know how amazing that is to be able to just hop on the zoom, ask the question with an expert.

That's, that's, that's so valuable.

Jen, what's a mistake that you've made that let the wrong person through an accident?

I would say one of the big ones was mistaking sarcasm for just a fun loving, different personality that would, you know, just create some interest in the office.

I didn't see that.

That particular trait, if taken too far, could be toxic.

Could literally be the thing that could tear people down instead of build them up.

And we're about building people up.

Yes.

So I would say that's one where I did let someone in who had that trade and I didn't count that cost.

And eventually that person had to be termed.

That person's employment had to be terminated for a reason, right?

It did, yeah.

Those.

And no matter.

It was hard.

It was very hard.

It was hard because she was talented.

So.

Okay, so the people that, that kind of worked under this person and whatever role that was, what happened to them after, and what happened to performance after this person was removed?

Yeah, well, one thing.

Before this person was removed, their performance continued to decline.

I do want to say that.

And then after this person was removed, their performance shot up.

And they talked about words like relief.

They talked about words like peace.

They talked about words like, you know, I'm excited about my job again.

Oh, my gosh.

They talked about things like, you know, we feel free to do what we're good at again.

You know, and so that tells us that, you know, we, we, we let in that, that person that wasn't right to work with them.

And, you know, I wish I had known earlier and put a stop to it.

And I take responsibility for that.

Well, and here's another.

And here's, here's another thing.

Look, none of us are perfect, right?

Here's, here's the thing.

That person was removed even when there was not a replacement because it was that important.

It was a sacrifice.

One of those sacrifices you talked about for great culture.

We have to sacrifice hard things today for a better tomorrow.

Many times, I believe the company we want to have in the culture we desire to have tomorrow is just waiting on some hard decisions today.

Some, some bold moves today.

Just a few.

Not a lot of conversations.

Just a few.

Yeah.

And so what surprises, what has happened to me in the past is this was many years ago that if someone was Fired for values.

That those others would come around, those that had been taking the brunt of it or shouldering the load, they would say, and sometimes they'd say, what took you so long, Jason?

Yeah.

Yeah.

But they didn't feel comfortable to speak up before.

And other times, and they would say, hey, Jason, that was the right move.

We've got it.

I already talked to so and so and so and so, and we're going to handle, we're going to split this up.

We're not going to miss a beat until you find a new person.

And that's exactly what they did in this case.

Yeah.

Isn't that amazing?

And so they see that leadership cares.

Yes.

That leadership stands for something.

Yes.

What do you stand for in your company?

Or is someone going to get fired or tolerated?

That's a great question.

Yeah.

So as wearing the recruiting hat, the, the job is not, is, is not just acquiring talent.

No.

It is gatekeeping.

It is culture, values, vision.

It's.

This is a very, very important job.

That's why you don't just hire just some admin to do this.

I'm not saying an admin can't do this.

Right.

But someone.

This needs to be someone that if they get cut, they bleed your colors.

This is a passion project.

Yes.

I'm passionate about this.

And here's the thing.

Jennifer is not like most, most HR people.

When you.

And I don't want to make a blanket statement about all HR people, but HR has a reputation of being cold.

They don't care, and they're just looking to write you up for something.

You can see that's not who we have here.

Okay.

We can be clear, we can be kind.

We can hold people accountable and still love and care for people.

Yeah.

So, okay, so here's the hard part.

Most people tuning in don't have a Jennifer.

You probably are the Jennifer.

Okay, so how do you become the gatekeeper without.

Without a Jennifer?

And so, Jennifer, I want to ask you, what would you share to our, to our listeners, what should they do before hiring a role?

That's a great question.

So first of all, have those core values.

Identify those, identify your role.

Decide, you know, what are the key result areas where if you don't get a result, you know, the main work of this position is not going to get done.

The most important things are not going to get done.

So identify three to five key result areas where this person needs to shine.

And then you need to make sure that your comp aligns with that.

Those two pieces first are the foundation for your role.

And then you want, you know, we call it an avatar, which is just kind of the ideal candidate that we want for the role.

You know, what are the skills that they have?

What are likely personality traits that are going to bring them success in the role?

You know, what are those disc profiles that could connect with those likely personalities?

Person with unlimited potential, things like that.

Exactly, exactly.

Persuasive, influential, whatever.

So we want that avatar so that we have an idea who's going to get success, who's going to win in this role.

And we want to also then prepare a job posting that's built on those kind.

That tripod there.

Right.

And so as we build that job posting, what's beautiful about it is you're going to speak the language of the person because you've already identified what that language is that's going to attract the talent that you need in that position.

And we're going to say, hey, if these are, if these are things that are characteristic of your personality or things that you don't want or do want, maybe it's not a fit for you.

And it's a great fit for you if you have these traits or want these things.

That's one of my favorite parts of the roll of the roll packets.

I love that.

One of the parts of the roll packet.

Packet is the job posting.

Yes.

And, and there's a section.

My favorite part is this is not a good fit for you if.

Right.

And you literally list out the traits you're not good with.

Change.

Right.

For some role packets.

Right.

For some roles.

If you don't like to hear the word.

No.

Right.

Okay, so people, we want people to see that and say, oh, no, this job isn't for me.

That's right.

Okay, so we've got to get clarity.

Owners have to get clarity on their core values.

Who are you?

Yes.

What are you, what are you willing, what are you willing to take a hit for?

Yeah.

Okay.

You've got to have your core values.

They can't be a list of 10.

It needs to be the core values.

Not all values.

The core values.

So you have to have clarity there.

You have to have clarity on what you need for the role.

Now most times it's, here's all the things we need the role to do.

Do this, do that, do this on Monday, do this and that.

But shifting it to results areas, the key results areas.

That's right.

When this job is done.

Well, what is true.

Okay, so give you an example.

If we were hiring someone to clean the office Wouldn't be, you know, sweep this, mop that, dust this.

Those are actions to do.

It would be the.

A key result is the office is always magazine showroom camera ready on Friday afternoon by 5pm as an example.

Yeah, right.

That's a result.

That's a result.

So we have to get clear on the results for your roles.

So clarity on who you are, your values.

Yes.

Okay.

Because that's going to guide what behavior is acceptable and not acceptable.

Yes.

That's going to drive decisions.

Is this the right decision?

The wrong decision?

Okay, so like our second core value as an example is people.

You know, it's not one of our core values.

Profit.

If, if we have to choose between profit and people, we choose people.

We can earn more profit later.

If we lose, we're going to choose people.

People are more valuable than money.

The right people, people in general are more valuable than money.

But the right people on your team are so much more valuable than gold.

So again, clarity on who you are, on what's acceptable, your core values, clarity on the results you need for that role.

And Jen, you also mentioned the compensation plan has to work, but it's not all about the money, but the compensation plan.

So give us an example of, you know, why you put in the tripod.

As you said.

I like that.

The compensation plan.

Well, the compensation plan is going to reward the right behaviors, the right things that you want to see in that role.

And it's also going to, it's going to identify what winning looks like for that, that employee.

Nobody wants to be in a position where they don't know when they're winning or not, if they're winning or not.

And we believe in a strong pay for performance model that has great incentives that really rewards the end results that we want to see in that position.

And our people love it too, once they catch the vision.

Sometimes it takes a little while to.

If you've never been in a position like that, that pays that way to catch the vision.

But once they do and realize I can earn what I'm worth.

That's exciting.

That is exciting.

People want to be rewarded for their effort.

They do.

They want to know that what they do matters.

So I'm going to put you on the spot here for a second.

Okay.

Give us an example of, of a line you might use in a job posting that is values forward.

That really could attract and repel.

Okay, wow, you did put me on the spot there.

Well, just start with faith.

Like what's, like what might you put in there?

That's Obvious about faith that someone's gonna say, oh, yeah, I wanna know more about this company.

Yeah.

So, you know, believes in and strongly supports the mission of your company.

Speaks well about employees and employers.

You know, faith is a piece that's not only about God, but it's also about how do we interact with our fellow man as well.

Do we trust him?

And also, if you can't trust a man, you can't trust God's leading either.

And then, you know, do you.

Stands for integrity.

Stands for doing the right thing.

Treats others the way they want to be treated.

Treats your home the way they would want their grandmother's home treated.

Those kinds of things that, that really reflect faith and the heart of God.

Yes.

And it's okay in your posting to say, hey, this is who we are.

It is.

I mean, if you want to say we're a Christian based company, you can.

Say that it is absolutely fine.

And we also say the word that our core values are faith, family and folks.

Yeah, those are, those are right in the ads.

So what, maybe another example, and I guess that one would do it, but maybe what's something that would, you know, repel.

I guess faith would attract and repel.

That one could do both right there.

Right?

Yeah, absolutely.

You know, don't bother applying if you don't, you know, love, you know, working on Saturdays or if you don't.

If.

Yeah, that's a great.

That wouldn't be a bad section to have.

Hey, don't bother applying if.

Yeah, you're just being very frank and.

Clear and just listing the, you know, hey, we work on Saturdays, you know, the hard parts of the job.

We talk about this in interviews.

We go over what I call the I gotchas.

These are areas of the position that are hard.

You know, if you don't like walking outside in the hot weather, don't apply for a sales position or a project management position.

You know, that's part of the job.

We don't want them to go, oh, I wasn't expecting this.

Right.

Everybody loses, they lose, you lose, you start over.

It's better to filter those people out.

It is.

And it's being kind.

It is being clarity is kindness.

That's right.

That's right.

Right.

Okay, so this is, this has been a great conversation.

There's more to come on this topic.

And you can, you can certainly hit me up if you have any messages or you can certainly hit me up if you have any questions.

Shoot me a message.

All the contact info is with, is with this episode.

And I want you to look forward toward the next episode.

We've got more coming in here in season two of the Contractor Freedom Podcast.

God bless you.

Here's what I want you to hear.

You don't have a people problem.

You have a clarity problem.

You never defined the role.

You never named your values, so you don't actually know what you're looking for.

And when you don't know what you're looking for, you'll take whatever shows up.

That's not a hiring strategy.

That's a wide open door.

Get clear on who you are and what you stand for.

Build that into your job ads and your interviews.

Let it attract the right people and repel the wrong ones.

Because you will never escape contractor prison if every person you hire pulls you right back into contractor prison.

The goal was never a bigger team.

It was the right team, the kind that guards what you've built right alongside you.

If this episode names something that you've been feeling, do me a favor.

Follow the show so the next one finds you, because we're building on this.

And if you know a contractor who's been hiring out of frustration or desperation, send this to him.

You might save him a year of the wrong people.

I'll see you at the next episode.

If today's episode helped you, don't do this journey alone.

Join thousands of other contractors inside the Contractor freedom [email protected] and start building the business, the team, and the life you really want.

We'll see you next time.