Just as angels exist as God’s messengers, Satan has a legion of agents at work promoting his agenda as well. Join host Pastor Dave Schultz as he welcomes Rev. Dr. John Juedes to discuss demons and demonic possession in today’s world.

The following program is sponsored by evangelical life ministries.

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Good evening. This is Dave Schultzer host for engaging truth programming for this evening. I have a special guest that, um, I've only heard about not seen yet, but, uh, we see him on the, the zoom broadcast today. Welcome John. Is it Judas?

Uh, in good German, Jay sound like wise. So it's Ys Yiddish

Like

Johan Bach.

Uh, welcome John. We welcome to the microphone this evening, uh, for our engaging truth programming. Um, I was just amazed at all the information that has been given me about who John is. Tell me a little bit about who John is and people on the air will know you then.

Well, right now I'm pastor of, uh, Messiah Luther church in Southern California. You halfway between Los Angeles and Palm Springs, and, uh, I've been, uh, privileged to, uh, train deacons in the Lutheran church for about 20 years. And it's great to see young and sometimes older men, uh, grow in faith and in ministry and, uh, on the side, uh, apologize and ministry to cults and new religions has been a sideline for me. So I have various, uh, videos on YouTube and so forth. So, uh, I enjoy that cuz it's an evangelistic ministry that hopefully removes hindrances to the faith for people.

Have you been all your years in ministry in California?

Yes. Ever. Yeah. Since about the time my first baby was born, uh, we lived in Southern California.

I also, I'm going to explore a little bit about, uh, your time in Africa in Kenya. Uh, tell me about that a little bit about what your work was there.

Um, I was able to teach at a, uh, training school for church leaders, deaconesses and pastors, uh, there in, uh, Western Kenya, uh, Matton Lutheran college, uh, which is actually a, a more like a seminary than a college. And, uh, so I was there for two months and it was a really in encouraging experience for me personally. And it gave me a lot of insights into what the African church is like, uh, their challenges and their strengths. Um, certainly it's a much different setting in the third world or in the majority world than it is in this world. And I went back again, uh, on a mercy mission for a couple weeks after that. So it gave me a taste for what, what ministry and what pastors, what deaconesses are like and what, uh, churches worship services and so forth are. Um, it's interesting to see how the faith is expressed in a little different culture.

Somewhere in those 30 years, you got came face to face with, uh, demonology or, uh, demon possession. Tell me about that.

You know, when I was many years ago, teaching at a youth group event, uh, after one of the sessions, Ashley came up to me and said that she had asked her Ouija board before she moved into this city who her friends would be and then oui board named her friends in advance. And so she was sure this was a supernatural event. Now, when something that, that comes up, um, someone usually an adult, uh, has a choice. One is they can basically try to talk the young person out of this say, oh no, this was just an accident. Uh, you know, you knew what the most popular names for girls were in the teenage years and you happen to hit it, right? That would be a secular idea or the response could be, yes, that's a form of spiritual power, but it will end up hurting you in the long run. So for instance, so when a fish is in the lake and it sees a nice juicy worm, it says, wow, this is dinner. And only later as the fish find out that they are dinner, they're not having dinner. And this is the way OCO things like Luigi board and Oracle cards, Carol cards at such a work is that they are appealing on the outside. However, they end up hurting you in the law because there are doorways for demons to, uh, enter a person's life and afflict, uh, hurt them in some way,

The, both the old new Testament talk about demon possession. We learn in the new Testament of Jesus casting out demons, but healing people who were, who afflictions and illnesses, where in the world do demons come from, let's go back to something elementary.

Of course, in the, uh, throughout the Bible, we have a relationship with God as our heavenly father, but in the spiritual world, there are other entities too. There are good angels. Um, you know, those, the, that, uh, intervened in the new Testament, but then there's the other side of the spiritual world. Uh, Satan and demons that is evil. Spirits are also individual entities. They have minds and they're able to think and do things. They were never human and don't have physical bodies, but they still have an influence on this, uh, world. Unfortunately, people often do things like OAL things like Wei boards that I mentioned before. Uh, not realizing there's a, a negative spiritual world. And so they, uh, demons can, uh, affect their lives, even though they don't intend that to happen and don't even believe they exist. So that's why it's important to keep those dollars closed. And for Christians to realize that those influences are there now, you know, there's two extreme. I mean, we certainly shouldn't approach it, uh, from one end to the scale and think that, you know, every little thing that bad that happens is demonic or that every, uh, spiritual flaw or failing is demonic and there are demons involved, but nor should we go to the other extreme and think that they have no influence at all.

I have found in my ministry, I found in my ministry, like you've probably found in yours that, um, people, Christian people will seem to believe that they can fool around with tat cards and, uh, Ouija boards. And it's kind of, okay, it's kind of a fun thing to do. Not realizing that it really is, has got the other side, the devastating side of the, of the results of it.

Yes. And certainly many people do use it as a game. And for many people, it doesn't seem to bring any consequences or problems in their lives. Uh, but for others it does become a doorway for a demon to, um, of, with them. And they can pay dearly for that being naive. Is it doesn't help or, or keep you from, uh, being, uh, afflicted in some way.

I was thinking about this as I read your material yesterday. Um, the demon world probably is so subtle that it can, it even be affecting Christians who are afraid to deal with some major sin in their life. And so the demon find a way to slip in, is that a possibility

I expect that's a possibility. Um, but I think that, uh, more commonly it's our own sin nature at work. Certainly our own central nature is very powerful and, uh, can bring some terrible consequences on our lives.

I know that we've talked often in our Bible studies here about the second Corinthians passage that, that refers to the apostle Paul talking about the demon world, uh, about those who are angels of light, who come bearing a light, that kind of looks like Jesus really, it's very, very deceptive. Have you faced that as well?

Yes, certainly is de deceptive. Uh, sometimes Christians seem to implicitly have the idea that Satan no steps up looking evil. Like he is waving a red flag saying here I'm evil, Satan avoid me, but in fact it, uh, is normally the other way around that demons hide their influence and do appear to be good rather than bad. And so in the alcohol world, uh, they're often called familiar spirits. That is people think that some spirit is becoming personal to them and is gonna lead them into better ways when actually, uh, it's just a come on, uh, that it may appear to be, uh, encouraging or good in some ways, but as time goes on, it takes, create a toll on the individual.

I think one of the things that we don't realize that there's a cost involved in all of our lives, uh, the sin that we contain, the, the old atom that we fail to, to, to challenge. Um, so what, what is the cost of involvement in, in this, this, um, this world of divination?

Well, of course, um, Satan's main goal is to separate us from God. So one of the most, uh, first and most common signs is losing a desire for Bible study, either personal or with groups, losing a desire for worship, uh, losing a desire for prayer. And along with that, finding a desire for, um, the more, uh, unchristian modes of spirituality or of, uh, the old cult and what may also come with that is, uh, psychological changes, um, uh, finding fears or disturbances in the emotional life that comes up or conflicts between people. Now, those things that course can come from other causes as well, but also are an indication of, uh, demonic, uh, affliction of people.

When we talk about, um, expulsion of, of demons, demon possession, I don't have any power to do that, but I have the authority from the word of God, um, to use his word, do I not? And you do it as well. How about the people who you walk into one day and you see them, their appearance is different. Everything about them is different from the two weeks ago when you saw them. And you knew that something had has gone on within their life. And generally it is a demon who's found his way into their life, or found a, found a crack to, to involve himself in their life. Can we ask these people who are believers to begin with? Can we ask them, you need to take issue with this and tos this demon out in the name of Jesus, is that number one?

You know, that's an important part of that. Um, as with other parts of the Christian life, it starts with repentance a or, uh, renouncing is another word for that. So frequently, uh, a demonic affliction will come as a result of some particular behavior. So that might be an extreme kind of sin. It might be some kind of a cult involvement in spell casting or divination, uh, to cards, whatever. So it's good to, um, interview a person and ask about those kinds of connections, because a starting point is that the person, uh, renounces those actions or those behaviors or those practices, because unless they renounce them, there's no way to remove and LIC that anyone has, or to get demons, to be separated from a person because those doors are still open. So renouncing a repenting of those things as a way of shutting that door, uh, when you do that, then of course, that next step is to repel the demons, the two RS renounce and repel.

And, uh, of course the model is the apostles in the new Testament to repel or throughout demons in the name of Christ Jesus, cuz we have no power to do that ourselves, as you just mentioned, you know, but the power is in the name of Christ. Jesus. I like to picture it like a judge or a policeman. They have no power to arrest someone or put them in jail, but they just speak for the state, which has the power. So in the same way, a, a believer can, uh, repel cast out a demon in the name of Christ Jesus, because it's his power that does that. Not our own. We just speak in his name just as we do when we forgive sins in worship or baptize in Jesus' name,

When you were in Africa, uh, you probably sensed, or you probably saw among the, the African traditional religion, some of the, the demonic things that you probably had heard about. Did you experience any of that among the people that you dealt with here?

Those things are much more common in Africa. Uh, and you mentioned African traditional religion ATR, which is kind of a catchall for many different, uh, forms of African religion carried on in different tribes. Um, they are much more overt about trying to communicate with spirits. And so you'll see things like, uh, charms, uh, charm is, uh, an object, you know, that may be on the wall of a house or at the junction of a road or on top of a house or an Alet, which is an object that people wear. So those are said to be powered by, uh, spirits in order to, um, cause something good in their lives, uh, in some way. So those things are very overt in Africa. Uh, people also use charms or ambulance ambulances in other countries, um, especially religions that have istic backgrounds, but also in, uh, the Western world as well. So it's important to renounce those charms and, and to get rid of those very often African traditional region also explicitly has mediums that try to communicate with spirits or diviners that try to use objects like a board, something like Luigi board in order to have spirits talk to them. So when you do that intentionally, which they do in African religions, you get all the more friction happening in people's lives as a result of the, uh, problems that demo demons cause to people and communities.

It seems to me that, um, as I look at the world in which we live and as I hear people talking strange talk, um, that the demons themselves have found a new way and that's through the media, the, the, the media world, which has really become something from the very time that you got into the ministry. And of course, when I got into ministry, um, the apostle pulses take captive every thought is that the, the thinking process do the, the demon world also use that as an entry point.

I'm sure they do. And you might say that's in the mass media, but it also is in the social media. So there's a lot of, um, OAL practices, um, spiritual practice, which are not Christian ones that are promoted through TikTok, through, uh, videos on YouTube and so forth. So this is dangerous in that people who, you know, don't know anyone, perhaps who uses Touro cards can find something on TikTok or the internet that instructs on how to do that. So those are certainly open doors and the Satan certainly is benefited when, uh, people come to think in unbiblical ways and in, uh, ways that support the demonic world. And certainly you see many of those themes in the jet media, as well as in the social media

You originally started. And I want you to continue on that, the five steps, uh, of dealing with the issue of demon possession. Would you continue on with that? I think you, you were, you were pausing for a moment with, with repelling. Would you start there again and go on?

Sure. Well, it starts, it began with renouncing, you renounce the practices that are opened up for demons. You repel the spirits by talking to them, telling them to go in Jesus name, but then it's important to rebuild after that, uh, to build a, a healthy, spiritual life to make personal Bible study and group Bible study, um, and worship, you know, the foundational parts of your life. And that way you have the healthy, spiritual life, you know, the health of the relation chip with God that, uh, defends you against any kind of attacks from the spiritual world.

You know, the apostle Paul talks about resisting Satan, Peter talks about resisting him as well. Uh, putting on the armor of God, how does that work with, with demon possession?

Well, certainly, uh, Satan demons want to get into our lives in different ways and yes, the armor of God is important. Of course the most important part is the word of God, cuz that tells us the difference between truth and error. And it enables us to discern, uh what's God. And what is it? Um, so the sort of the spirit, the word of God is certainly the most important. The other elements, you know, the gospel of peace salvation is a defense against, uh, um, the inroads that the spirit world and our own sin can make to our lives or the, um, wrong guidance from our friends or media.

There may be someone in the listen audience, uh, Dr. John, who, um, who's dealing with the issue of, of demon possession in a child, in a spouse. What, what encouragement can you give that particular person about the way in which to bring this to a head, to be able to define it, to be able to deal with it?

Well, it's good to not be alone, of course. And so, you know, most of us don't have much of a grasp on what to do with that. And so it's good to be part, part of a, a prayer group, um, a small group Bible study in which you can share your concerns, get advice from other people and have people pray with you over those things. Uh, so that way you're, you're not alone. And, uh, you do have the wisdom of the word of God, as well as other believe to do that. You know, the apostle Paul was great as was Peter, and yet they all, they always went out in twos or in groups for exactly that reason. Cause we do need the strength of other believers help us deal with those things.

You know, it concerns me as an older pastor like yourself to that. Um, we have become so wealthy as a nation, as a people and even as Lutheran people that, uh, God and his holy word, it doesn't go away, but it kind of gets put on the back burner of importance. What kind of encouragement can you give to, to the audience of people who may have fallen into that trap of, of indifference toward what the precious word of God provides for us?

You know, it is easy to slide into that indifference, but there's always consequences for that. And certainly people feel that in terms of anxiety, uh, maybe depression and other things. Um, and you know, Jesus said he came to give us life and life to the full and I believe that's true. And when we are more closely connected with the fellowship of believers and more closely connected with God, especially in, in worship, uh, that that really does, um, uh, help us each week or each time to find inner strength, to find, uh, understanding that we wouldn't have otherwise and to find greater strength and joy in the Lord.

Well, how the pandemic has worked to separate people from the church has, has, has taken people out of their pews and put them a on the couches and, and, you know, for many people that's difficult to come back. Uh, and simply just that trap of believing that you can receive everything that you need from a little bit of opportunity to watch television and church on television. That's not the fellowship of God's people together, is it

It's not. And you know, the body of Christ, uh, which is what the believers are compared to. It's a two way street. I mean, your, uh, your hand, uh, gives something in that it does something for the good of the body while it receives the things the others do. So if you're just online, you're not doing that giving and it in giving and serving, which is a great source of spiritual growth and strength. And you can't do that, uh, on the other side of a TV screen. So we really need to be interacting with other believers in worship and Bible study and service in order to be doing, growing our faith by doing as well by receiving the word of God and hearing worship.

I guess that's one of the wonderful things. The reason why, uh, the Hebrew is, do not forsake the assembling of yourselves together. Uh, Dr. John, we've only got a minute left and I just wanna say, thank you. This has been very interesting and very spontaneous, but also very enlightening. And I want to thank you for the opportunity that you have given us to hear something about what, you know, an awful lot about John, would you please conclude our time together with prayer?

I'll do that. And thanks so much for the opportunity and for the blessing. Your show is to people in Houston and in other parts of the country. Well, let's pray. We thank you, Emily father, that you do supply all of our needs, our spiritual, emotional, physical ones. And I pray father that you would give us the discernment to see when, uh, the evil is trying to make inroads into our lives and to put our foot down and in the name of Jesus Christ to repel the influence of evil spirits and invo instead find the understanding from the word of God and the joy and strength in our Lord. Jesus, have we prayed his name?

Thank you so much for being with us, saw engaging truth. Goodnight, and come back again. Thank you. Goodnight.

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