Ever tried to disagree with someone who is absolutely convinced they are right? It is exhausting, isn't it? And if we are honest, we have all been that person at some point.

In this week's livestream, Matt Edmundson tackles conflict in relationships - not just marriage, but friendships, work, and increasingly in our everyday interactions. He explores why we have moved from disagreeing with ideas to fundamentally hating people, and how Christians can demonstrate that another way is possible.

Matt identifies two camps most of us fall into: the Winners who must be right at any cost, and the Avoiders who keep peace but lose intimacy. Drawing from Ephesians 4, he unpacks six biblical principles that transform how we handle disagreement - from complete transparency to dealing with anger quickly, watching our words, getting rid of bitterness, being genuinely kind, and remembering how much we have been forgiven.

You will hear vulnerable stories about Matt's own journey learning to value relationships over being right, plus practical wisdom from Conversation Street on handling phone addiction, political differences, and the modern excuse of we are just not compatible.

[03:00] We Have Forgotten How to Communicate

Matt opens with a challenging observation: we are living in extraordinary times where we no longer just disagree with ideas - we fundamentally hate people. It is called affective polarisation.

James says everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to become angry. But we have completely flipped that script. We are quick to speak, slow to listen, and really, really quick to become angry.

What we explore:

• How Proverbs 18:2 calls out those who delight in airing opinions without seeking understanding
• Why we may think we are being humble but are actually just delivering verdicts
• The cultural shift from dialogue to tribal warfare
• How this affects relationships at every level

Key takeaway: If you have already decided you are right before the conversation starts, you are not having a conversation - you are delivering a verdict.

[08:15] The Winners: Right But Alone

Matt explores the first camp - those who approach every disagreement like a battle that must be won with facts, logic and evidence.

You might win the argument completely, but something breaks between you. Your logic might be airtight, but you have lost the person. You are right, but you are alone.

Honest insights from Matt's business experience:

• Why running a company requires a certain amount of ego
• Creating a board with equal votes specifically to get pushback
• Finding disagreements deeply annoying but also very helpful
• Learning to see conflict as opportunity rather than battle

Key takeaway: In marriage especially, you may gain the argument but lose the person when winning becomes your goal.

[12:45] The Avoiders: Peace But No Intimacy

The second camp avoids conflict entirely - do not rock the boat, keep things pleasant, peace at any cost.

While you are avoiding the conflict, you are also preventing the connection. The things that matter most go unspoken. Hurt and resentment build quietly, like mould behind a wall you cannot see until the damage is catastrophic.

What happens when we avoid:

• You withdraw emotionally, even if just a little bit
• You become more like roommates than life partners
• One day something small triggers an explosion
• Your partner is blindsided because they had no idea things were building

Key takeaway: Biblical love does not demand you win, but it also does not allow you to hide.

[17:20] Six Biblical Principles for Conflict Resolution

Matt unpacks practical principles from Ephesians 4:25-32 that reframe how we handle disagreements.

1. Stop Telling Lies - Tell the Truth

Complete transparency in marriage - no hidden websites, secret accounts, or private messages excluding your spouse. If you cannot share it, there is a strong chance you should not be doing it.

2. Control Your Anger - Deal With It Quickly

Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, for anger gives a foothold to the devil.

Unresolved anger ferments into something toxic. Keep short accounts. Deal with things quickly. Matt shares how he journals, prays and walks - often all three together - always within a day.

3. Watch Your Words

Let everything you say be good and helpful. Matt challenges how Christians have become indistinguishable from non-believers online - the same contempt, the same tribal anger. When we consume politically charged content, we get discipled by social media rather than the Holy Spirit.

4. Get Rid of Bitterness

Notice who Paul is talking to - you, not them. Take personal responsibility. Stop being historical in arguments, bringing up failures from years ago. Love keeps no record of being wronged.

5. Be Kind

Kind does not mean soft or weak. Sometimes the kindest thing you can do is confront the issue directly. Kindness is about communicating with a tender heart.

Matt shares learning to be the first to apologise, examining what he had contributed to conflict rather than defending his position. Jesus reminds us: why worry about a speck in your friend's eye when you have a log in your own?

6. Remember How Much You Have Been Forgiven

When you remember how much you have been forgiven - your pride, defensiveness, the ways you have hurt God and others - it becomes easier to extend that grace to your spouse.

Key takeaway: 99 times out of 100, there is always something you can own and apologise for. Start there.

[40:00] What This Looks Like Practically

Matt vulnerably shares a recent example with his wife Sharon.

Life had been busy and I had not been spending as much time with Sharon as I should or as she deserved. Sharon was feeling it. I could have justified it - men are great at justifying work and busyness - but that was not the point.

What he did:

• Took time to journal and think about his contribution
• Properly apologised (not I am sorry you are upset)
• Led to talking through what actually needed addressing
• Never let it fester more than a day

Key takeaway: Get rid of the log in your own eye first, then you can see clearly to help with the speck in theirs.

[44:00] Conversation Street: The Phone Problem

Dan, Jenny and Matt discuss how technology is infiltrating every conversation and relationship.

How do you manage phones without constant distraction?

Dan shared: My excuse was I run a business, I need to be on my phone. It is not that urgent. I can wait and do it all together in one go.

Jenny's household rules:

• Phones not allowed at dinner table
• Phones not allowed in bedrooms
• Plan intentional times to connect with phones away
• It is so addictive - we would be terrible if we were not trying proactively to be on top of it

Practical tips that emerged:

• Use summary notifications instead of constant alerts
• Get a second phone line to separate business and personal
• Take a deck of cards when you go out as a family
• Establish phone-free zones and times
• Wear a regular watch instead of smartwatch when out with spouse

Key takeaway: You have to be intentional about putting phones down and creating space for real conversation, or technology will replace intimacy.

[51:00] But What About Compatibility?

Jenny raised the increasingly common question: Maybe we are just not compatible. Maybe I picked the wrong person.

Matt's characteristically direct response:

Let us be clear - you are not compatible. Fundamentally, you are flawed human beings. So there is going to be an element of tension and disagreement. Life is not like the reels you see on social media.

The biblical perspective:

• If you have made a covenant promise, that is a promise
• Assuming no adultery, abuse or abandonment, the covenant stands
• Compatibility becomes about swallowing your pride and working through it
• Once you are in, you are in - find a way through

Jenny added her experience:

Me and my husband actually have hardly anything in common. Sometimes we are like, how did we end up married? But we have a great marriage because we have worked through a whole ton of stuff multiple times.

Key takeaway: You were attracted to each other because you are different, and that difference is what sometimes makes you infuriating now. But with a humble heart and shared vision, God will help you work through pretty much anything.

[56:30] Your Next Step This Week

Matt's challenge is beautifully simple.

Next time you think you are right, ask yourself: What if I am wrong about being right? Be the first to apologise - not because you are weak, but because you are wise enough to value the relationship over being right.

The hope we can offer:

• Biblical love does not avoid conflict - it expects it and endures it
• Conflict is an opportunity for love to be refined and deepened
• Christians can demonstrate that another way is possible
• We can learn to disagree well, debate without being offended
• Love keeps no record of being wronged
• Grace is more powerful than being right
• Connection matters more than winning

Key takeaway: When everyone else has forgotten how to be human with each other, we can show that another way is possible.

About Matt Edmundson: Pastor at Crowd Church and entrepreneur running his own business, Matt brings both biblical wisdom and real-world experience to conversations about conflict. He has learned the hard way that needing to be right can destroy relationships, and now practices journaling, prayer and walking to process anger quickly. Married to Sharon, Matt openly shares both his failures and growth in learning to value connection over correctness.

Hello and welcome to Crowd Church, coming to you live

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from Liverpool this Sunday night.

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My name is Matt Edmundson, and whether

this is your first time or whether

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you've been part of our journey since the

beginning, it's brilliant to be with you.

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We are a community of people figuring

out what it means to follow Jesus in

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real life, not the polished, perfect

version, but you know, the messy,

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genuine, brilliant reality of this

whole thing called Christianity.

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So let me give you a little roadmap

of what's gonna be happening.

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Over the next hour.

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We'll have a talk, lasts about 20

minutes, looking at the topic of

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relationships, which is the section of

our series becoming whole, that we are

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looking at exploring how Christ makes

us whole across every domain of life.

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After the talk, we've

got Conversation Streets.

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Oh yes.

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This is where we dig into what

you've just heard, and you get

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to be part of that discussion.

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So if you're with us live, jump into

the comments, share your questions,

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your thoughts, and your stories.

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And of course, if you are watching on

Catchup or listening to the podcast, then

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thanks for being part of the Crowd too.

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Right?

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Let's meet your hosts

and let's get started.

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Dan Orange: Welcome to Crowd Church.

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It's great to be here with you today.

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Today I am joined by

wonderful Jenny Mariner.

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Jenny Mariner: Evening.

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It is an absolute pleasure

to be here with you.

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So what are we up to this evening?

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Dan Orange: So we're on part three of

the marriage, little marriage section

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we're doing in the whole, um, being

whole series and a little bit on, on

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marriage, which I'm looking forward to.

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Jenny Mariner: Yeah, absolutely.

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Dan Orange: And it's a, it's

a tricky one today, isn't it?

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Jenny Mariner: Yeah.

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We're looking at conflict, which

let's be honest, I think all of

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us experience one way or another

in marriages and another scenario.

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So I think a lot of what we're gonna

talk about today will be relevant.

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Dan Orange: Yes.

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Even

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Jenny Mariner: if you're not married.

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Dan Orange: Yeah, absolutely.

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I think it's, it's an essential

thing just for, just for life.

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How to, how to cope with conflict, how

to, how to work through it, how to.

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Wow.

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I was gonna say win, but I

think that's a bad thing to say.

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I think Matt would say that's

probably one of the problems.

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Um, but how to both, how

to both be winners, how to

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Jenny Mariner: navigate conflict

well and maintain good relationships.

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I think that's what

we're hoping to unpack.

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Yes.

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Dan Orange: I think that

sounds a lot better.

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Um, well, Matt's going to speak to us, so

I think let's hand over straight to Matt.

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Matt Edmundson: Well,

good evening Crowd Church.

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Great to be with you.

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Uh, yeah.

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Tonight we're looking at conflict.

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What if you are wrong about being right?

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That's the question, which I think is a

pretty, pretty hard question, isn't it?

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Uh, especially in communication where

we disagree and conflicts arise,

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whether that's in our marriages or

in our friendships or in our work

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relationships, wherever it is.

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And this is the, uh, what is the

question we're asking ourselves today?

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What if I'm wrong about being right now?

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Have you ever tried to disagree

with someone who is 100%

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convinced that they are right?

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Not because you are that person.

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Obviously you are never that person.

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Uh, that's convinced they're a hundred

percent right, but we've definitely

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spoken to someone that is a hundred

percent right and it's really, really

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hard, isn't it, to challenge them.

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And in Christian circles.

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We have this special kind of language

that we like to put around it.

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Like I'm approaching this with humility,

which usually means I know beyond

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a shadow of a doubt that I'm right.

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But I've told God that in the

really, really unlikely event that

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I could be slightly wrong, he should

point it out to me, uh, in the most

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clear and obvious way possible.

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But until he does, I'm right.

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Now, I've had a lot of these

conversations with people, uh, over the

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years in this sort of exact scenario.

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But let me tell you, that's not humility.

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Actually.

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That is pride.

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And before we get too far in our

memory, banks replaying those sort of

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conversations, we do have to ask ourselves

that sort of uncomfortable question.

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How often do we do exactly the same thing?

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How often do we approach a conversation or

a disagreement knowing that we are right?

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And if you're a Christ follower,

how often do you use spiritual

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language to justify that position?

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My favorite one being God told me now.

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It's not just in the church that

we have this particular problem.

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I think we're living through

what I would call extraordinary

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times here in the UK right now.

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I mean, they, they are a bit

bonkers and researchers are

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calling it effective polarization.

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Great term.

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Uh, it's where we don't just

disagree with anybody else anymore.

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We don't just disagree with their ideas.

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Actually, we've taken

it to the next level.

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Well actually more than the next level

because we've moved from disagreeing

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to actually hating them as people.

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So it's no longer, I think you are

wrong, but actually fundamentally and

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wholeheartedly, I think you are evil

and I think you are dangerous and I

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think it's a bit of a problem, right?

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So, uh, we have now in the

UK free speech rallies.

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Um, but there are speakers

literally standing on stage calling

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for the banning of all public

expressions of non-Christian faith.

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There are also cases where Christians

are arrested and investigated

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because someone perhaps from another

faith or another people group

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don't like what they are saying.

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And we see videos all the time of

street preachers getting arrested.

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But how's that free speech?

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And it leads us to this idea

then that free speech works as

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long as it aligns with my views.

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And if it doesn't align with my

view, then it's not free speech.

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It's hate speech.

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And the government's response

to all of this, well.

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I'm not a big fan of criticizing

the government all the time, but I

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don't think it's particularly been

great as we've seen a sort of a

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huge crackdown, uh, on free speech.

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And we see police now are making over 30

arrests a day for offensive online posts.

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And this cultural narrative is

beginning, I think, to sort of seep

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into our homes, into our marriages

and even our churches to some degree.

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And I think as Christians, we should

be on God for this because I do not

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think it is biblical thinking, and I

definitely don't think it's biblical

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thinking around politics either.

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Because in all this political tribalism,

Christianity for me, genuinely transcends

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it, and it subverts this sort of left and

right political spectrum in ways actually

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that I think should make both sides

really, really, really uncomfortable.

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Christianity doesn't fit neatly into

political boxes because I think it

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operates from a fundamentally different

premise than secular political ideologies.

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So Jesus, when we look at him, he came to

orient us to toward heaven, first to seek

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the kingdom of God and his righteousness.

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He didn't come to orient us towards

the left or to the right, and so I

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think we have to be really careful not

to weaponize our Christianity for our

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political viewpoints, to exasperate

them and to exasperate the problem.

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It's as if we've forgotten the

fundamentals of how to communicate and

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how to dialogue and even dare I say it,

how to disagree and to do that well.

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So James, the brother of Jesus, who's a

bit of a legend, says, everyone should

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be quick to listen, slow to speak, and

slow to become angry, quick to listen,

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slow to speak, and slow to become angry.

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And I think we've completely

flipped that script.

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Uh, and we, I think it's,

it's totally inverted.

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We're quick to speak, we're slow to

listen, and we're really, really,

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really quick at becoming angry.

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But if we did, as James suggests, and if

we become quick to listen, I think then we

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spend more time trying to understand the

other person, that person in front of us.

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There's a book in the Old Testament

called Proverbs, which is called

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like the wisdom book, and it's

basically a book of sayings.

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Uh, all very wise sayings,

but it is really, really

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brutal on occasions, isn't it?

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It just absolutely pulls it out.

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Uh, and in Proverbs 18, two, it

says that fools, and I want you to

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pay attention to the word fools.

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Fools, find no pleasure in understanding,

but delight in airing their own opinions.

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Sometimes, right?

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When you come to the Bible,

all you can say is ouch.

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Right?

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That's one of those moments, fools take

pleasure in not understanding, right?

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There's no pleasure in that.

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They're not quick to listen.

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They're not slow to speak.

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They're the opposite of that,

and they delight in being heard.

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Now, we may think we're actually being

humble because we're willing to have

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a conversation, but if you've already

decided ahead of time that you are right.

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You're not really having

a conversation, are you?

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You're more, you're more delivering a

verdict and maybe according to Proverbs,

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being a fool At the same time, and

like I say, all you can say is ouch.

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Now, my observation, people

usually fall into one of two camps

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when it comes to disagreements.

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We have the winners and we have the

avoiders, the winners, and the avoiders.

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Now the winners decide they're

going to win the arguments, right?

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I'm right, you know, I'm right.

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I just need, you know, to marshal

the facts, the logic, the evidence,

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and everyone will see that.

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I'm, in fact, right now, if you don't

know me, if you've never really sort of

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connected with us at crab before, you

may not know that I run my own business.

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I have a company, we have a team in

that company, and if I'm really, really

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honest, there is a certain amount of ego.

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Uh, required for that role.

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Now, I have to believe, uh, that I'm

right enough to back my decisions, right?

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But I definitely need

pushback on those decisions.

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This is something that I've learned

over the years, sitting on various

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boards for PLCs, for charities, right?

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There's power in having around

you people who think differently.

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And so I created a board for my

own company, and it doesn't matter

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about shareholding, who owns what

shares, but we all have equal votes.

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So recently when I decided to make

a big, or when we had to make big

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decisions about our company, the board

pushed back on my suggestions, which,

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if you know me, I found deeply annoying,

uh, but also very, very helpful.

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Now, it was annoying because

I thought I was right.

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Right.

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It just, it just was, but it's

helpful because it makes me,

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uh, think about things properly.

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And I think ultimately we reached

the right decision by doing that.

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And I'm still learning, you know,

to see disagreements has, uh,

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opportunities rather than sort of

battles that I, that I have to win.

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So if I approach communication with this

sort of winner mindset, uh, especially in

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my marriage, you know, this idea of I must

win, then I think you're gonna run into

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problems because you may win the argument.

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I mean, you may win it completely.

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They have nothing left to say.

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Your logic is airtight, and yet

something's broken between you.

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Something is broken between you and

them, and facts just cannot fix it.

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You may be right, but you're alone.

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You've gained the argument perhaps,

but you've lost the person.

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The other one we have are the avoiders.

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Now, all of this sort of extreme noise

that we've been getting recently,

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all this gerrymandering from the left

and from the right, has created what

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researchers call a spiral of silence.

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A spiral of silence is a great phrase.

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Uh, people have stopped expressing

their views because they think that it

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will be unpopular, and we've actually

become now genuinely afraid to express

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opinions on anything controversial.

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Maybe you are not the person then

who needs to win every argument.

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Maybe you are the person

who avoids them entirely.

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Just don't rock the

boat, don't bring it up.

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Keep things pleasant,

please peace at any cost.

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And at first this

strategy might work well.

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There's no fights, there's no tension.

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Everything seems calm, and you

tell yourself that you're a bit of

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a genius because you know you are

picking your battles, you're not

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making a fuss over the small things,

and there is a place for that.

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But actually in that, not only are

you avoiding the conflict you, you're

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actually avoiding the connection.

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The things that matter

most then go unspoken.

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And I think that hurt, that

resentment builds up and it grows

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and it grows quietly and subtly.

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And you might not even know it, but

it's there and it's building and bit

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like mold behind a wall that you can't

see until the damage is catastrophic.

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So one day, right?

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And it could be tomorrow, it could

be in a month, it could be next year.

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But some point in the future,

something small is gonna happen, right?

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And you are gonna explode.

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And all of that suppressed hurt, all

of that anger, all of that, whatever it

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is, is gonna come out of you at once.

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And your friends, your partner, your

spouse, your family, they're gonna

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be seriously blindsided because they

had no idea that this was building.

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So you may have kept the peace, but I

think the, the net result of this actually

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is a loss of intimacy as well, right?

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And as things build up, you start to

withdraw, even if it's just a little bit.

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Um, and so actually you start

being more roommates rather than

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life partners navigating, you

know, all of this stuff together.

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The Bible tells us, um, it's

really interesting verse, right?

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It says, uh, Paul, right into

the Corinthian church said, if I

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understood all of God's secret plans

and possessed all knowledge but didn't

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love others, I would be nothing.

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I just love that phrase, right?

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If I understood all of God's secrets, and

this speaks to the winners, doesn't it?

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Knowledge without love destroys

so you can understand everything.

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You can have all the facts, you can

have all the figures, you can even

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understand all the secrets of God himself.

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Uh, but without love, it's

not gonna work for you.

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Right?

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But Jesus also speaks directly to the

avoiders in Matthew's gospel, he says,

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if another believer sins against you,

go privately and point out the offense.

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So you go, you tell them, right?

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You go.

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You tell them.

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You don't store it up.

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You don't pretend that everything's fine.

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So biblical love doesn't demand you

win, but it also doesn't allow you to

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hide and remember in all of this, right?

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The goal, the fundamental goal in

all of this, that verse in Matthew

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18, if you read the latter part of.

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It's all about resolution.

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It's all about restoration.

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It's all about winning people.

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It is never about vindication.

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So in Ephesians, um, the Apostle Paul

is right into a church that has very

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similar issues to what we face now.

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A lot of communication issues

were going on in that church.

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And he gives them, uh, six practical

principles, which we are gonna run through

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'cause they're really, really good.

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Right?

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So make sure you're taking notes.

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Number one, Paul writes

this, stop telling lies.

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Let us tell our neighbors the truth

for we are all parts of the same body.

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So stop telling lies, right?

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Tell the truth.

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This, especially in your marriage,

means complete transparency.

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No hidden websites.

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Men, no secret social media

accounts, no private text

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messages that exclude your spouse.

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Marriage is not a place for secrets,

so if you can't share it with your

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spouse, there's a really strong

chance you should not be doing it.

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Just putting that out there.

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Number two, uh, don't sin.

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By letting anger control you, don't let

the sun go down while you are still angry

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for anger gives a foothold to the devil.

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That's quite fascinating

language, isn't it?

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Control your anger and

basically deal with it quickly.

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And I think, I think this whole

idea of not letting anger control

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you is fascinating and not letting

the sun go down on your anger.

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So you, you have to understand your anger

and you have to deal with it quickly.

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Don't give the devil a foothold.

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Why?

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Because unresolved anger ferments

into something like super toxic.

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And I've seen this over the years as well.

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You know, where small things

become mountains, uh, when

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we just let them fester.

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So if you just look at what's happening

in the UK at the moment in our society.

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This is what I see.

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Anger has built up over years.

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People have kept things

and not said things.

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Maybe it's the spiral of silence,

but all of a sudden it is exploding

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all over the place and people are

venting like there's no tomorrow.

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So in your marriage especially, keep short

accounts, keep short accounts, deal with

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these things, and deal with them quickly.

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Number three, one of my favorites,

don't use foul or abusive language.

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Let everything you say be good

and helpful so that your words

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will be an encouragement.

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So watch your words.

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Right?

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And I think Christians listen up.

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This should be a guiding principle,

especially on social media, right?

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It breaks my heart.

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That is becoming, I think, harder and

harder to tell Christians apart on

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social media from non-Christians, the

way we speak, the contempt in our words,

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this tribal anger, which is building.

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We sound just like everyone else, except

I think we're called to be different.

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We're called to be salt, and

we're called to be light.

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So when we consume primarily this sort of

politically charged content, what happens?

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Well, I think we get discipled and

we get discipled by social media, by

325

anger, by fear, and by tribal thinking

rather than by the Holy Spirit.

326

And so we do the opposite of what Paul

says in Romans two, where he says,

327

do not be conformed to this world.

328

But that's exactly what we do.

329

We start conforming our speech and our

emotional responses to match our political

330

tribe rather than our spiritual calling.

331

But the countercultural narrative

of Christianity, I think, gets

332

compromised in this scenario when we

can't tell the difference between a

333

Christian and a politically engaged

atheist based on how they talk online.

334

It's a little bit scary.

335

So your words, according to the Apostle

Paul should build up, not tear down.

336

They should be characterized

by grace and truth.

337

And also I think focus on the gospel.

338

Number four, get rid of all bitterness,

rage, anger, harsh words, and slander,

339

as well as every type of evil behavior.

340

That's a pretty encompassing

verse, isn't it?

341

But the interesting thing about this

verse, uh, you have to ask who is

342

the subject of the sentence, right?

343

Who's Paul talking to?

344

He's talking to you, not to them,

not to your spouse, but you, right?

345

Uh, this is where the Bible, I think

on many occasions, talks about the

346

importance of personal responsibility.

347

And this is such an occasion

deal with how you communicate.

348

Get rid of the bitterness and the rage.

349

Stop holding onto stuff, and you may have

every right to feel how you do, but get

350

rid of it anyway, because I don't think

on any kind of level it's helping you.

351

So Paul reminds us that love right

keeps no record of being wronged.

352

I love this first 'cause It reminds me

of a, a story I heard once from a fellow.

353

He said, whenever my wife and I get

into an argument, she doesn't become

354

hysterical, she becomes historical.

355

Um, and I think we have to stop that.

356

We have to stop being

historical in our arguments.

357

We have to stop bringing

358

It's time to let it go, right?

359

Number five, be kind to each other,

tender hearted, forgiven one another just

360

as God through Christ has forgiven you.

361

Be kind, be kind.

362

Um, is the way you are speaking to that

person, to your spouse, to your friend,

363

to your work colleagues, is it kind, is

what you're about to post on social media.

364

Kind.

365

Now, let's be clear.

366

Kind does not mean soft,

and it does not mean weak.

367

And actually sometimes the est thing you

can do is confront the issue directly.

368

Kindness isn't about being

quiet, it's not about avoiding

369

the difficult conversations.

370

Kindness is just about

communicating with a tender heart

371

in them and being tenderhearted.

372

If I'm honest with you, I think it's

just being the first to apologize.

373

Um, something that I learned early on, uh,

in my marriage, I learned this principle.

374

Well, let me tell you.

375

I can't even remember what Sharon and

I were talking about, but I do remember

376

making a deliberate decision to apologize.

377

I sat in my study and I'm like,

I thought through and I wrote

378

things down, and I examined what

I'd contributed to the conflict

379

rather than defending my position.

380

Which would've been

the easier thing to do.

381

Um, and when I did guess what, right?

382

Both our gods came down and we could

actually have a real conversation

383

and get to the heart of the issue.

384

And Jesus puts it this way

in his own incredible style.

385

Why worry about a speck in your

friend's eye when you have a

386

log in your own hypocrites?

387

First, get rid of the log in your own eye.

388

Where do you go with that?

389

Right?

390

The chances are really, really high

that you have what Jesus called

391

a log or a plank in your own eye.

392

So apologize for that.

393

Own it.

394

Don't hide from it, own it, and

then be the first to apologize.

395

And I appreciate right?

396

That is a lot easier said than done.

397

Right?

398

I know.

399

I get it.

400

Uh, this is really hard.

401

The hardest thing to do is to

let go of the belief that you

402

are actually right, especially

when your emotions are involved.

403

I mean, it just is.

404

But without a doubt, I'm convinced

99 times out of a hundred there is

405

always something that you can own

and that you can apologize for.

406

Own what you can own and apologize

for that and start there.

407

Number six, uh, and all of this

Paul ends by saying, just as God

408

through Christ has forgiven you.

409

Now, that's the game changer, right?

410

So when you remember how much you've been

forgiven, your pride, the defensiveness,

411

you know, the offense, uh, the need to

be right, the ways you've hurt God and

412

others, when you remember what you've

been forgiven, it becomes easier to

413

extend that same grace to your spouse.

414

So what does this look like practically?

415

Well, for me, it involves

all of the tools.

416

Let me tell you.

417

I journal, I pray, I walk quite often.

418

I will do all three together.

419

And I always try and do it within a day

because I never want that to fester in me.

420

You know, get rid of all bitterness.

421

So I've gotta do that.

422

I've gotta go, uh, and

get that bitterness out.

423

And recently life has been, well,

it's been a bit busy, um, and I have

424

not been spending as much time with

Sharon as I should or as she deserves.

425

And Sharon was feeling it.

426

Um, and I could have justified it

because as men, I think we're great

427

at justifying work and busyness.

428

But that's not the points, of course.

429

No, you've gotta get rid

of the log at your own eye.

430

So I apologized and it let us.

431

To talking things through

that needed addressing.

432

And it wasn't the, I'm

sorry, you are upset.

433

I'm sorry you feel that way.

434

Kind of apology.

435

'cause that kind of apology deserves

a slap in the face just saying,

436

uh, but actually take time to think

about what I'd done and what I needed

437

to apologize for and deeply and

properly repent and apologize for it.

438

So biblical love does not avoid conflict.

439

I think it expects conflict and

I think it endures conflict.

440

Modern.

441

The modern cultural narrative may

view conflict as a sign that the

442

relationship is failing somehow.

443

But I think scripture sees

it in a different way.

444

I think scripture sees it as

an opportunity for love to be

445

refined and to be deepened.

446

Now, if you're like me, you will

spend a lot of time thinking about

447

heaven and what it's gonna be like.

448

I'm looking forward to a

lot of things about heaven.

449

I'm looking forward to sliding down

those streets of gold in my socks,

450

because I think that'll be fun.

451

Uh, but one of the things I'm definitely

looking forward to is there being no crazy

452

social media posts or statements, right?

453

No bickering.

454

Just good old fashioned

conversation with curiosity, you

455

know, and kindness and humility.

456

I mean, that would be

amazing, wouldn't it?

457

Wouldn't it?

458

It's just, I just love this

idea, but I don't think we have

459

to wait for heaven before we as

Christians start practicing that.

460

I think we have to learn biblical

ways to communicate, to be curious,

461

and not be right all the time,

especially in our marriages.

462

But actually with everyone,

if I'm honest with you.

463

Um, like I said, it's almost

like a missing skill that we used

464

to have that we somehow forgot.

465

You know, we did communicate, but now

we're sort of reverting back to being

466

cavemen, you know, and shouting only.

467

Now we have really, really

sophisticated language to make

468

it sound super, super smart.

469

If we really learn to communicate with

our spouse and with each other in a

470

way that reflects both grace and truth

in a way that is both clear, but also

471

kind, what a difference that would make.

472

It's a kind of communication that I love

to learn, to disagree well, to debate,

473

you know, without being offended, to

be okay with people not agreeing with

474

me, and me not crumbling into this

blubbering mess on the floor because you

475

don't like what I think or what I say.

476

We can demonstrate, I think, as

Christians, that another way is

477

possible When everyone else has

forgotten how to be human with

478

each other, I think we can do it.

479

So here's my challenge.

480

Next time you think you are

right, ask yourself, what if

481

I'm wrong about being right.

482

Be the first to apologize, not

because you are weak, but because

483

you are wise enough to value the

relationship over being right.

484

Start there and let's see how it goes.

485

Dan Orange: Wow.

486

Amazing.

487

Isn't it?

488

Like it's such, go talking

about this in marriage.

489

It's such a great thing to be,

um, in a marriage and be with

490

someone who's different to you.

491

So there's gonna always be

conflict because you're different.

492

We're, we're all unique and

it's great that the Bible has

493

so much about, about that.

494

Yeah.

495

I, I really like that talk.

496

Um, Jen, before we sort of move

on, is there any, anything that

497

sort of jumped out to you first

that you'd like to, to mention?

498

Jenny Mariner: Oh, I mean,

it was great, wasn't it?

499

And as we said at the beginning,

there's so much that's relevant for

500

marriage, but relevant for any Yeah.

501

Relationship.

502

I think that one of the things that,

um, actually jumped out to me was if

503

you are in the second category and

you're an avoider to, I would really

504

encourage people to try and tune

into what you're actually feeling.

505

That's probably one of my

kind of reflections on people

506

that can be in that camp.

507

So I know, I don't know who's

watching and you thought, oh

508

yeah, I like to be a winner.

509

Oh yeah.

510

I like to be avoided.

511

But I think sometimes avoiders can

actually not even be that self-aware.

512

Mm-hmm.

513

And if you are actually not self-aware of

your own feelings and don't even realize

514

that you're avoiding conflict, then

that can have a whole heap of problems.

515

Yeah.

516

I mean, like Matt said, it's

like mold behind a wall.

517

Yeah.

518

And actually when the wall finally

comes tumbling down, it's all your

519

partner's faults and you don't realize

that actually you let the mold grow.

520

Um, so that would be one of my things.

521

I was like, yeah, actually,

you know, there some, we really

522

need to take responsibility

in any relationship, don't we?

523

To, to know what we are feeling.

524

Mm-hmm.

525

And to know what we are doing.

526

Yeah.

527

Yeah.

528

And to know

529

I'm avoiding this.

530

Is that a good thing?

531

Yeah.

532

Or is it time for me

to actually address it?

533

Yeah.

534

To be really self-aware.

535

That's the thing that

kind of jumped off to me.

536

Yeah.

537

I dunno what you think about that.

538

Dan Orange: No, I, I really like that.

539

And there's, there's a verse in,

in Galatians and it says, make a

540

careful exploration of who you are

and the work that you've been given,

541

and then sink yourself into that.

542

Don't be impressed with yourself.

543

Don't compare yourself with others.

544

Each of you must take responsibility

for doing the creative best

545

you can with your own life.

546

And I think sometimes we can not look

at, we can bla blame other people

547

and think, well, I, I am right.

548

And not look at ourselves and go, what

can I do to be the best that I can and

549

can, what can I do to be the best husband?

550

I know when we were talking before

about avoiders, before the live stream,

551

before about avoiders and winners, I

was thinking when I read that I thought

552

I often was an avoider because I wanted

to be a winner and I didn't know how to

553

do it, so I just wouldn't say anything.

554

But it, it did, it came to a point

in our marriage and what Matt

555

said, and I wrote it down, was if

you avoid, you lose connection.

556

You miss some of that closeness that you

could be having in, in your marriage or

557

in in your relationship because you just.

558

Prepared, and it might be a

bit painful, that conflict.

559

It's not always, it's not easy, is it?

560

It's gonna, it's gonna require

you to be humble and require you

561

to realize that you've both done,

done wrong or said things wrong,

562

but the outcome is, is worth it.

563

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

564

It's, it's a really

interesting one, isn't it?

565

The avoider thing.

566

'cause I think, I think if we're honest,

we go through seasons where Yeah.

567

Where one or the other.

568

Yeah.

569

I like what Heather put in the comments.

570

She said, my husband and I both winners.

571

So it leads to some furry

arguments or furry conversations,

572

which I think, yeah, I get that.

573

I, I do get that.

574

And I think sometimes, 'cause

we're not perfect, right?

575

Sometimes we avoid, sometimes

we just go all out for the kill.

576

You're like, right.

577

How many times have you rehearsed

an argument in your head, right?

578

You've just, your spouse has

offended you and you're like right.

579

I'm gonna write this down.

580

I'm gonna, I'm gonna go to

ai, I'm gonna Google this.

581

I'm gonna get everything that I need.

582

And you've rehearsed the speech

a thousand times in your head.

583

Um, and it just, it never works out like

you think it's gonna work out, right?

584

It just, it just doesn't.

585

Um, but I do think, the thing that I've

noticed in myself and in other people

586

is when we avoid the conversation,

we do withdraw a little bit.

587

Mm-hmm.

588

Sometimes we withdraw a lot,

some, but sometimes it's a little

589

bit, and I think that's the,

that's the thing that we can own.

590

Yeah.

591

As avoiders, it's like, yes, your

spouse may have offended you.

592

Yes, they may have, but by not confronting

that, that's the thing which you own.

593

That's the logging your eye.

594

That's the mm-hmm.

595

Because actually what you are doing

is you are withdrawing emotionally a

596

little bit, mainly to protect yourself

perhaps from that happening again.

597

But, um, yeah.

598

Yeah.

599

Dan Orange: And it's, it's different

in a marriage, isn't it, with the

600

conflict and resolution we've just

been much talked about is, um.

601

Really, really useful

for all aspects of life.

602

But in a marriage, we've got

that, we've got that extra, we've

603

got that covenant relationship.

604

So it's not something, you know,

some conversations, some differences

605

between people, you might say,

well, it's probably easier.

606

We just don't talk about that.

607

Or probably easier with them,

we, we don't meet because that,

608

that causes too much rift.

609

But in a marriage, you've got

to spend time sorting that out.

610

Jenny Mariner: Yeah, absolutely.

611

And I, and it is, I just think

like that says you've gotta do

612

everything you can to maintain that

intimacy in a marriage, haven't you?

613

And I think particularly, like for

a lot of people, the pattern is you

614

get married and then at some point

there's gonna be some kids come along

615

and then life gets extremely busy.

616

And actually you can end up realizing

you're functioning alongside each other

617

very well, but you're not connected.

618

And it's such an important

thing to maintain, isn't it?

619

Connection.

620

Dan Orange: Yeah.

621

And it's just as a personal testimony,

it's worth it, you know, from, I, I,

622

I mentioned a few weeks ago about a

whole cleaning the cooker incident.

623

And, um, it all went a bit pear

shaped and we had to get, um,

624

the pastor of the church and we

called them up and said this, yeah.

625

That, that was just the,

the tip of the iceberg.

626

And it just, it just

broke the camel's back.

627

And, um, but ever since then we've,

we've had to communicate better and

628

we've had to learn, we've had to stop

the avoiding and the intimacy is just,

629

we've got such a better relationship now.

630

And, and that was quite a long

time up to that, that point that we

631

thought everything and everything

was, you know, it wasn't, it

632

wasn't bad, but I was missing out.

633

And I think that's one thing

about avoiding you just, it's

634

just don't, don't miss out.

635

Yeah.

636

Yeah.

637

No,

638

Matt Edmundson: it's a

really interesting point.

639

I, I, I'm just looking at what

Ellis put here in the comments.

640

I have an insistence on having

to be right no matter what, uh,

641

which ironically is itself wrong.

642

Um, uh, thanks for saying that Ellis.

643

I think it's a really, it's an

interesting point, isn't it?

644

I do.

645

How, how do you guys handle this?

646

This need to be right, or maybe

you don't have to handle it.

647

Maybe it's just me.

648

I, I don't know.

649

I just like, I hate being wrong.

650

Right?

651

Yeah.

652

Hate it with a passion.

653

Um, especially when I know I'm right.

654

So how do you deal with that in yourself

when you sense that and feel that?

655

Dan Orange: Well, one thing I have

found is that so often between me

656

and Lisa, and then also between, I

used to have a guy work for me, um,

657

and we'd get into arguments or just

tension, and a lot of time we'd realize.

658

We were both actually

meaning the same thing.

659

It's just our communication was bad

and, and the way we were saying things

660

was, um, was, was confusing the matter.

661

And, and think with me and Lisa,

we've, I've had things that I've

662

thought, oh, I'm, I'm right on this.

663

And then realized after lots

of discussion we're both pretty

664

similar on, on the, on the outcome.

665

And there was little nuances that we

talked about and realized that oh yeah,

666

she, Lisa got a good point about that.

667

Or Dan's got a good point about that

and that, that, not saying that's

668

all the time, but a lot of the time

that happened that, um, we weren't as

669

far apart as we we thought we were.

670

Yeah.

671

Yeah.

672

Jenny Mariner: I think there's

also something as well about still

673

addressing it and figuring out

like, is this something that we

674

just need to agree to disagree on,

but still do that in relationship?

675

Is this something we have to solve?

676

And so, like you said, we're just

gonna have to keep coming back to it.

677

We're gonna have to go and

get somebody else to help us.

678

But again, but particularly in a marriage

where you're trying to maintain that

679

covenant, and if you don't deal with

it one way or another, again, it's

680

gonna draw, drive that wedge, isn't it?

681

Yeah.

682

So, you know, I think you can,

sometimes, if it's something

683

simple, it can become almost a joke.

684

Like, there are things in our marriage

that is a bit like, oh, you know,

685

you think this and I think that.

686

But we've talked it through

and it genuinely is a joke.

687

We've just agreed to disagree.

688

And then other stuff, we've done

it a couple of times, we've been

689

like, we have to solve this.

690

Yeah.

691

So we have to go and get

somebody else to help us.

692

Yeah.

693

Because yeah, to, to not deal with

it or to just keep butting heads.

694

It, it, it's gonna have a bad impact

on that intimacy in the end, isn't it?

695

Matt Edmundson: Mm-hmm.

696

Yeah.

697

So what happened when,

uh, when you did that?

698

You went, who did you go see and,

and, and what did they tell you?

699

Were they obviously divulging,

700

Jenny Mariner: um, sensitive

701

Matt Edmundson: information?

702

Jenny Mariner: Um, well we both went,

it went to different wise couples

703

in the church that we trusted.

704

And to be honest, in both cases they

just really were able to help us

705

talk it through, not particularly

quickly, but help us hear each other's

706

point of view a little bit more.

707

Help bring other perspectives in.

708

Um, I think in one of the scenarios,

one of us, they were like, well, this

709

isn't really about right or wrong.

710

This is actually about

how you're both feeling.

711

And it was one of those scenarios where

it's like, well, you might be right,

712

but if you know the other partner

doesn't want it that way, then you know,

713

this isn't just about right or wrong.

714

So it was just, I think

having other voices.

715

'cause otherwise it is just

can become well, who's gonna

716

win or who's gonna back down.

717

Yeah.

718

And just having somebody else

neither resolved in one conversation,

719

but both were completely resolved

in just being able to have

720

somebody else help break that.

721

Yeah.

722

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

723

Jenny Mariner: Tension.

724

Matt Edmundson: That's such

a cool thing, isn't it?

725

And to, and I think that is humility to

actually go, we can't solve this ourself.

726

Let's go get some help.

727

Yeah.

728

Um, and being okay with that.

729

Yeah.

730

I think is super, super important.

731

Um, I, I've done it in business

relationships, I've, you know, as well,

732

so you can extend that principle out.

733

Um, and I, I think definitely

if you're at a, if you're at an

734

impasse, then go get some help.

735

'cause it's worth definitely,

definitely resolving, uh,

736

without a shadow of a doubt.

737

So, um, let's talk about, so we've

all talked about social media, right?

738

Love it, hate it, basically

hate it, if I'm honest with you.

739

Um, but, you know, we use it

as a tool to get the gospel out

740

there, so, you know, um, as, as

its advantages in some respects.

741

Uh, but

742

the, one of the things that I've

noticed, right, is you, I dunno if

743

you've seen this, you go to a restaurant.

744

And there's the quintessential

couple, you know, probably in

745

their mid twenties, early thirties,

they're both on their phones, uh,

746

or you are around somebody's house.

747

We do this, I mean, we've got quite a

tall house, so if I'm downstairs, I'll

748

call Zoe if she's upstairs, right?

749

'cause I can't be bothered to get

outta the chair and just go upstairs.

750

I just can't.

751

Um, and it's fascinating to me

how the rise of social media, the,

752

the rise of the short form content

has infiltrated our conversations.

753

Do you know what I mean?

754

And so you can't sit and have a

conversation in a restaurant now without

755

getting your phone out or checking things

or you, how do you, how do you guys

756

manage the phone things in your marriages?

757

Dan Orange: It's it for me, yeah,

for us it's a, it's a conscious thing

758

that we do have to, on our phones

a lot and have to consciously go.

759

Okay.

760

Um, I'm not good at not looking at that.

761

And yeah, and also realizing my

excuse was, well, especially in the

762

daytime, I need to be on, I've run a

business and it's just, it's just me.

763

I need to be on my phone and check

in emails, all that kind of stuff.

764

Um, it's not that urgent.

765

Mm-hmm.

766

You know, um, there's times when I can

just go, well, I can put that down.

767

I can wait and I can do it

all together in, in one go.

768

It doesn't have to be a constant thing.

769

And, and going back to the social

media, I think we've talking before

770

about marriages that we've seen

that, that are breaking down.

771

And often it is, it is this sort of

Instagram, Facebook, it's a, we're so

772

used to statements, oh, that's a good

statement, but there's no conversation.

773

And if you've got a life that has

that, that that sort of statement

774

lifestyle, you're missing out on

the, the conversation, the, that.

775

What you said might be right or there

might be something on there that that

776

isn't right and you need to converse it

and you just, the proverbs which you quote

777

from, there's so many things about it

says A wise, wise person seeks counsel.

778

You've got to, yeah.

779

It's a no brainer.

780

Yeah.

781

Jenny Mariner: We have quite a lot of

rules in our house that we've kind of

782

like put together to try and help us.

783

So like we try and sit down for meals

together where we can, and phones

784

aren't allowed at the dinner table.

785

Phones aren't allowed in the bedrooms.

786

Like in terms of the first thing in

the morning, last thing at night.

787

We try really hard, you know, going

back to the thing about connection,

788

we try to plan in times where we will

connect even if it, we are not spending

789

money, you know, it's like an evening,

we'll have a meal at home together.

790

Even if it's not a fancy one, do you know?

791

I mean, the phone will go away and

we're sat eating together and we will

792

have a conversation or like, you know,

it's different for everybody, isn't it?

793

'cause I know sometimes actually that's

quite awkward, just sat staring at

794

each other and it's actually awkward.

795

But like, is it, I don't know,

doing a jigsaw, going for a walk.

796

Do you like running together or

cycling together or do you know

797

what is gonna be the thing for you

that you can put in regularly where

798

you're then just both present?

799

Yeah,

800

because we find the tension builds

up if we don't do that because just

801

the, the run of the mill stuff isn't

coming up and being chatted about.

802

Mm-hmm.

803

Um, so yeah, trying to have

those intentional times where

804

actually the phone is not allowed.

805

Dan Orange: And, but did, did you

find that when you made that dis

806

before you made that decision it was,

um, or when you made that decision,

807

it's something you had to learn?

808

Again, that's what we found with

going, if we're going out for a meal

809

or something to put, I'm so used

to looking at it, I had to learn.

810

To just look at my wife, just look at

who I'm I'm with and not not have that.

811

Jenny Mariner: It's so, I mean,

it's a whole nother thing, isn't it?

812

But it's so addictive.

813

Yeah.

814

Isn't it?

815

It's constant.

816

And I, both, me and my husband, find

that we go through seasons when we are

817

more addicted and find more excuses.

818

Anyone I seen that you find more

reasons why you're on your phone.

819

Yes.

820

Yeah.

821

And so yeah, for all kinds of

different elements of health.

822

Mm-hmm.

823

Just, I think we would be

terrible if we weren't trying

824

proactively to be on top of it.

825

It would be awful.

826

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

827

Yeah.

828

So it's a, I think with the phones it's,

um, they can, I find that what I did was,

829

I stopped checking the phone, but I got

an Apple watch and of course all your

830

notifications come up on your Apple watch.

831

Yeah.

832

And actually I've got

to the stage now where.

833

I can't read the Apple Watch anyway

'cause unless I've got my glasses in.

834

So I'm quite grateful for that.

835

I just know I've got something's happened.

836

I don't know why I, they'll call

me if it's an emergency, but

837

it's one of those, isn't it?

838

The other thing I did was I got

a second line so I can separate

839

business now and only like a handful

of people have that second number.

840

And so if it's important,

they'll get through to me.

841

Yeah.

842

Right.

843

And that, that works crazy well.

844

Mm-hmm.

845

Um, but I also have a watch that's

not an Apple watch, which I will

846

wear when I go out with Sharon, uh,

because I'm gonna get into trouble.

847

Uh, if I don't, the other thing that we

do, which is work really well, is if we go

848

out as a family, we take a deck of cards.

849

Yes.

850

We do that.

851

We play cards like in

restaurants and stuff.

852

Yeah.

853

That's always great fun.

854

I'm always, yeah.

855

Lots of Uno.

856

Yeah.

857

Yeah.

858

I, I lose all the time.

859

Zoe beats me all the time.

860

Which you enjoy, don't you, Zoe?

861

And it's just, yeah, yeah, yeah.

862

Um, but we'll play rummy, um.

863

We don't gamble.

864

There's no money, there's no,

I just wanna point that out.

865

Right.

866

Um,

867

Dan Orange: on a, on a technical

thing, you can, now, I should

868

imagine Android as well.

869

You can do summary notifications.

870

So most of the things that pop up, you can

just say, I don't want that to pop up now.

871

Just summarize it in the morning,

the evening, and I've done

872

that made a massive difference.

873

Yeah.

874

I didn't, you know, McDonald's

didn't tell me at like 10

875

o'clock, oh, this is happening.

876

Just cut that out.

877

Jenny Mariner: Have we got time

for me to ask another question?

878

Dan Orange: Yes.

879

Yeah.

880

Jenny Mariner: Another one I, I think is

coming up a lot in this day and age is

881

like, maybe we're just not compatible.

882

Dan Orange: Mm-hmm.

883

Jenny Mariner: Maybe I just

picked the wrong person.

884

Maybe like, this is just too much.

885

And the best thing for us to do

is just go our separate ways.

886

What do we reckon guys?

887

What does the Bible have to say?

888

Matt Edmundson: This is such

an on-topic conversation.

889

Uh, compatibility.

890

There is a, well, let's just be clear.

891

You are not compatible.

892

Fundamentally, you are

flawed human beings, right?

893

And so there is gonna be an element

of tension and disagreement.

894

This is not the Cosbys, this is life

is, you know, Adam and Eve didn't see

895

the right eye to eye before the fall.

896

So we've, it's just one of those things

where you kind of go, don't be surprised

897

if marriage is not what you think it

should be, because you have seen a

898

happy married couple on social media

and you've seen all their reels, right?

899

It just, life is not like that.

900

It's complicated, it's messy.

901

So first and foremost, you

are not compatible, not 100%.

902

Um, that said, I'm of the opinion, um,

that if you make a covenant promise,

903

then that is a promise.

904

Right?

905

Now we've talked about, um.

906

We were talking about earlier, won't we?

907

The three, a's for divorce, like

there are, there are biblical ways to

908

end a relationship, a marriage, but

assuming that they're not there, right?

909

So that there's no adultery, there's

no abuse and there's no abandonment.

910

It's just a couple who

cannot get on, right?

911

And we've had that scenario, you

know, lots and lots of times,

912

people, uh, couples have come

to see us and fundamentally they

913

cannot see a way to make it work.

914

And we are seeing it more now.

915

If the husband has a different political

viewpoint to the wife, this is becoming

916

where it's becoming more and more acute.

917

So if he's right wing and she's left

wing, or if she's right wing and he's

918

left wing, um, especially with this,

what we talked about earlier on this,

919

this belief that actually it's no

longer about just disagreeing with you,

920

but I fundamentally have to hate you.

921

Um, I don't think that

nullifies a covenant promise.

922

Yeah, I think your covenant

promise is above that.

923

So far above that, that actually.

924

Compatibility then becomes

about you swallowing your pride,

925

the pair of you, and doing

something to rectify the problem.

926

And yeah, I'm, I'm a, I'm

more of a fan of that.

927

Jen.

928

I dunno if that's the right

answer or the wrong answer.

929

I appreciate there's

nuance to this, right?

930

Um, and I appreciate for some couples,

they literally fight all the time.

931

For others they may hardly fight at all.

932

Um, I, I do appreciate there's nuance

to this and there's complications and

933

levels of complications, but I'm of the

opinion that once you're in, you're in.

934

And so you've gotta find a way through.

935

Yeah.

936

Dan Orange: Yeah.

937

I think that was, yeah, really well put.

938

I'm, I'm of that, that same opinion.

939

And also it's great that we are different.

940

It, it, it causes, you know, it's

tricky, but like we've talked about

941

today with the conflict and resolution,

doing that in your marriage means then.

942

You can do it with, with your kids,

you can do it at work because you've,

943

you've been there and you realize,

well, I'm different to Fred at work.

944

I'm different to Sarah.

945

Um, and, and that's, we

we can still get along.

946

Yes, you are, you're closer.

947

But that's the wonderful

thing about men and women.

948

They're, they're different.

949

They have different roles and yeah,

there are things that could really pull

950

you apart, like political differences.

951

And we, we were talking before

that even, even a, let's say even

952

a horrible politician, dictator

might actually say something true.

953

Doesn't mean he's, he's nice,

but there's there's truth in,

954

in, in both sides of things.

955

Yeah.

956

Yeah.

957

Jenny Mariner: I often think about,

if you look in the New Testament

958

about the way that it says.

959

The Holy Spirit is shaping us.

960

You get, you know, things like love and

joy and peace and kindness and gentleness.

961

Like in the morning service

today, we were talking about

962

wisdom and being peace, loving.

963

And you know, listening again that

quote from James listening and I

964

think find me to people that are

like that and I reckon they'll be

965

able to make their marriage work.

966

So like for me, that's

the personal challenge.

967

You know, someone said to me about

12 months ago, they were talking

968

about the fruits of the spirit.

969

Which one of those things that I

kind of learned in primary school.

970

I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

971

You know, whatever.

972

And you're like, actually no, you gotta

do all your relationships with them.

973

Like, 'cause you know, even if you

totally disagree on something, if you're

974

disagreeing with kindness and gentleness

and patience, then actually you can

975

probably navigate that disagreement.

976

Yeah.

977

And you know, you can't be responsible for

how your partner's doing it, but you can

978

be responsible for how you are doing it.

979

So I think it's such a crazy.

980

Bar, and yet that is what

God is growing us into.

981

That is what the Holy Spirit

is empowering us into.

982

It just, it sometimes involves a

bit of painful humility, doesn't it?

983

Dan Orange: Yeah.

984

Another great proverb says, A

soft answer turns away wrath,

985

but a harsh word stirs up anger.

986

Better is a dinner of herbs where love

is than a fatted calf with hatred.

987

And it is that that soft anger, soft,

that soft word, it's, it's calming.

988

Calming down and just

989

Matt Edmundson: learning how to deal

with the disagreements and the conflict.

990

Well, and I think that can be done.

991

And I think compatibility is,

992

I think differently to Sharon.

993

I, and thank God that I do, because if

we both thought the same, we would, we

994

would have twice the disasters really.

995

Do you know what I mean?

996

And, and I think because

she can think differently.

997

And, and I can think differently.

998

That's really useful.

999

Her brain is wired very

differently to mine.

00:53:12,197 --> 00:53:13,877

Have you ever heard the

tale of two marriages?

00:53:13,877 --> 00:53:15,527

Have you come across this with Mark Gunga?

00:53:16,877 --> 00:53:21,437

Go and watch, um, that series on YouTube.

00:53:21,437 --> 00:53:24,167

I think he, there's one where he

talks about a man's brain and a

00:53:24,167 --> 00:53:28,667

woman's brain appreciate these's

a very, it's a very stereotype.

00:53:29,027 --> 00:53:30,917

And so you don't need to write

into me and say, well, my brain's

00:53:30,917 --> 00:53:31,967

not like that and I'm a fella.

00:53:32,237 --> 00:53:32,987

That's okay.

00:53:32,987 --> 00:53:34,097

I, this is a stereotype.

00:53:34,097 --> 00:53:35,387

It's just an illustration.

00:53:36,137 --> 00:53:40,757

Um, but he talked about how in the

man's brain, the man's brain is

00:53:40,757 --> 00:53:43,787

basically a series of boxes, right?

00:53:44,087 --> 00:53:45,497

A series of draws.

00:53:46,127 --> 00:53:48,347

And, um, this is the work draw.

00:53:48,347 --> 00:53:49,937

So that's where my brain is right now.

00:53:49,937 --> 00:53:53,507

I'm in the work draw and I, when I

finish work, I close that drawer.

00:53:53,927 --> 00:53:57,017

And the biggest draw in the

man's brain is the nothing draw.

00:53:57,602 --> 00:53:58,382

What are you thinking about?

00:53:58,382 --> 00:53:58,772

Nothing.

00:53:58,772 --> 00:53:59,402

That's where I'm at.

00:53:59,432 --> 00:54:00,422

Right there in that drawer.

00:54:00,602 --> 00:54:00,902

Right?

00:54:01,112 --> 00:54:03,632

And to get me out of that, I've

gotta close that drawer and I've

00:54:03,632 --> 00:54:04,682

gotta open the other drawer.

00:54:04,712 --> 00:54:08,342

'cause that's, that's how my brain

works one thing at a time, and I'm good.

00:54:08,462 --> 00:54:09,812

More than that, it's a problem.

00:54:10,472 --> 00:54:13,892

And then he says, and, but a

woman's brain doesn't have drawers.

00:54:13,892 --> 00:54:19,082

He said, just imagine a ball of wire

all jumbled up and tangled, where

00:54:19,082 --> 00:54:23,732

everything's connected to everything and

it all functions at the speed of light.

00:54:24,752 --> 00:54:26,792

And I'm like, that's Sharon's brain.

00:54:27,392 --> 00:54:28,922

That's my brain, that's Sharon's brain.

00:54:29,222 --> 00:54:33,632

And I'm like, I we're

wired very differently.

00:54:34,142 --> 00:54:35,882

And God has designed it that way.

00:54:36,212 --> 00:54:36,632

Right?

00:54:36,632 --> 00:54:39,032

So compatibility is not

about thinking the same.

00:54:39,032 --> 00:54:40,982

It's not even about reaching

the same conclusion.

00:54:40,982 --> 00:54:44,492

For me, it's about celebrating

the differences, understanding

00:54:44,492 --> 00:54:46,232

that God has put you together.

00:54:46,772 --> 00:54:51,752

There are differences, go work

it out, because together the

00:54:51,752 --> 00:54:53,672

answer will be much, much better.

00:54:54,092 --> 00:54:58,202

Um, and Peter talks about this, about

inheriting the grace of life together.

00:54:58,592 --> 00:55:05,042

Um, and prayers not being hindered because

we're, we're both going our separate ways.

00:55:05,072 --> 00:55:11,192

And I, I think, yeah, with compatibility,

I think it's just such an easy excuse,

00:55:11,762 --> 00:55:13,712

um, to say, we're just not compatible.

00:55:13,742 --> 00:55:14,372

I'm like, whatever.

00:55:14,732 --> 00:55:15,302

It's lazy.

00:55:15,782 --> 00:55:16,622

Stop being lazy.

00:55:17,372 --> 00:55:18,782

Jenny Mariner: Know I'd

probably add something that's

00:55:18,782 --> 00:55:19,922

just come to my mind as well.

00:55:19,922 --> 00:55:21,062

Just encourage anybody out there.

00:55:21,272 --> 00:55:24,017

Me and Jack actually really

have hardly anything in common.

00:55:24,017 --> 00:55:24,992

That's my husband by the way.

00:55:25,112 --> 00:55:31,082

He's like, we don't have very many things

that we both like and you know, sometimes

00:55:31,082 --> 00:55:33,092

we are like, how did we end up married?

00:55:33,482 --> 00:55:35,882

Like in terms of, you know, when

we're trying to find those things

00:55:35,882 --> 00:55:38,972

to do together to both have fun

or whatever, you know, like.

00:55:40,442 --> 00:55:41,252

I think it's funny, isn't it?

00:55:41,252 --> 00:55:44,597

I dunno if either of you feel like this

about your marriages, but like you,

00:55:44,597 --> 00:55:47,402

like eyes actually really attracted

to you because you're really different

00:55:47,402 --> 00:55:50,372

from me because you bring so many

things to the table that are really

00:55:50,372 --> 00:55:53,582

different and that's what made you really

exciting when we were like both 21.

00:55:53,882 --> 00:55:56,882

And that's what sometimes makes you

completely infuriating right now.

00:55:57,422 --> 00:55:58,802

But like, it's okay.

00:55:58,802 --> 00:56:01,712

I'm just, you know, we, we, me and

my husband have a great marriage, but

00:56:01,712 --> 00:56:04,442

it's a great marriage because we've

worked through a whole ton of stuff.

00:56:04,772 --> 00:56:04,832

Yeah.

00:56:04,922 --> 00:56:07,082

Like over multiple times.

00:56:07,202 --> 00:56:09,812

So I guess, I mean, I wouldn't

say we're like hugely, hugely

00:56:09,812 --> 00:56:13,742

incompatible, but I wouldn't say we

were an obvious compatibility either.

00:56:14,132 --> 00:56:17,622

And yet, you know, you

can find a way through it.

00:56:17,622 --> 00:56:17,642

I dunno.

00:56:17,642 --> 00:56:18,032

It works,

00:56:18,032 --> 00:56:18,332

Matt Edmundson: right?

00:56:18,392 --> 00:56:19,142

Yeah, it works.

00:56:19,142 --> 00:56:19,742

And that's great.

00:56:19,742 --> 00:56:24,062

And I think actually a

humble heart, shared vision.

00:56:24,332 --> 00:56:27,062

We just wanna build God's kingdom

and that, I think pretty much that's

00:56:27,062 --> 00:56:29,432

all as long as you're committed

to that covenant before God.

00:56:30,182 --> 00:56:32,522

I think God will, will help you

work through pretty much anything

00:56:33,212 --> 00:56:34,292

would be my, there's a good

00:56:34,292 --> 00:56:36,182

Dan Orange: chance that your

kids are gonna be different

00:56:36,362 --> 00:56:37,652

as well in different ways.

00:56:37,832 --> 00:56:43,382

Having, having two, two chances to be,

to, to understand and to communicate

00:56:43,382 --> 00:56:45,122

and to work is gonna be better.

00:56:45,212 --> 00:56:45,452

Yeah.

00:56:45,542 --> 00:56:45,722

Yeah.

00:56:45,752 --> 00:56:46,022

Although

00:56:46,022 --> 00:56:47,342

Matt Edmundson: Zoe, you're

a lot like me, right?

00:56:51,482 --> 00:56:51,722

Sure.

00:56:52,292 --> 00:56:53,162

Uh, so yeah.

00:56:54,062 --> 00:56:55,502

Uh, look at the time.

00:56:55,502 --> 00:57:01,742

So we are getting to that place where we

are reaching the end of our live stream.

00:57:02,072 --> 00:57:04,772

Uh, we will be meeting on

Google meets after this.

00:57:04,832 --> 00:57:08,762

Um, Zoe will put the link in the

comments, so if you'd like to come join

00:57:08,762 --> 00:57:12,032

us afterwards, come say, how's it on

Google meets, we'd love to meet you,

00:57:12,362 --> 00:57:16,502

um, and hang out for a few minutes

whilst we pack all of this stuff down.

00:57:16,952 --> 00:57:19,202

Um, but yeah, anything

from you guys in closing?

00:57:19,382 --> 00:57:22,052

Sorry, I've just completely taken

over the whole host in thing now.

00:57:22,057 --> 00:57:22,097

No,

00:57:23,522 --> 00:57:24,182

Dan Orange: totally fine.

00:57:24,452 --> 00:57:27,182

I had one thing which you

said at the, at the end.

00:57:27,677 --> 00:57:30,887

Be kind and that's not be kind.

00:57:30,887 --> 00:57:35,177

It's very different to be nice,

be kind is a, it is mentioned

00:57:35,177 --> 00:57:36,677

a few times in the Bible.

00:57:37,367 --> 00:57:42,857

If you think about before you, you say

something, do I really need to say that?

00:57:42,977 --> 00:57:44,687

You know, is this gonna help?

00:57:44,927 --> 00:57:45,227

Yeah.

00:57:45,707 --> 00:57:46,067

Be kind.

00:57:46,727 --> 00:57:47,357

Jenny Mariner: Absolutely.

00:57:47,417 --> 00:57:50,477

The only thing I'd add

is be hopeful as well.

00:57:50,867 --> 00:57:54,857

Like I just really believe that God

is for marriage and as Matt said, he's

00:57:54,857 --> 00:57:56,987

for Covenant, but he's not for us.

00:57:57,347 --> 00:57:59,747

Sucking it up and living 30

years in something that's

00:57:59,747 --> 00:58:01,067

actually really difficult.

00:58:01,187 --> 00:58:01,247

Yeah.

00:58:01,247 --> 00:58:02,867

He's for helping us do this.

00:58:02,867 --> 00:58:07,517

Well he's for helping us thriving and

flourishing and having great marriages.

00:58:07,727 --> 00:58:07,817

Yes.

00:58:07,817 --> 00:58:10,757

Where actually we work through

this stuff in a really healthy way.

00:58:11,147 --> 00:58:13,247

So be hopeful would be my thing.

00:58:13,277 --> 00:58:13,577

Yeah.

00:58:13,817 --> 00:58:14,687

Matt Edmundson: No, that's really good.

00:58:14,777 --> 00:58:15,827

That's very powerful.

00:58:16,397 --> 00:58:17,207

Um, isn't it?

00:58:17,207 --> 00:58:18,107

There's always hope.

00:58:18,527 --> 00:58:18,797

Yeah.

00:58:18,797 --> 00:58:21,917

I've never met anything that is

utterly hopeless apart from a few

00:58:21,917 --> 00:58:23,327

men, but that's another story.

00:58:23,807 --> 00:58:26,177

Um, uh, but yeah, no.

00:58:26,177 --> 00:58:28,427

Thank you so much for

joining us this week.

00:58:28,427 --> 00:58:34,727

Next week we have, I think it's

Will, talking about fatherhood,

00:58:35,057 --> 00:58:37,892

so carrying on our conversation

about wholeness in relationships.

00:58:38,057 --> 00:58:41,657

We're gonna look at fatherhood

next week, the week after that, I

00:58:41,657 --> 00:58:42,977

think we're looking at motherhood.

00:58:43,667 --> 00:58:46,367

And then I think the week after that,

we might be looking at grandparents.

00:58:46,367 --> 00:58:46,427

Oh.

00:58:47,927 --> 00:58:49,277

I'm not entirely sure.

00:58:49,697 --> 00:58:53,207

So please, you know, just be, be

kind to me if, if I get it wrong.

00:58:53,357 --> 00:58:55,097

We're definitely looking at

those at some point though.

00:58:55,307 --> 00:58:57,377

Uh, but I think it's fatherhood next week.

00:58:57,917 --> 00:59:01,997

Um, so do make sure you come

join us for that'd be great to

00:59:01,997 --> 00:59:03,707

have you in the conversation.

00:59:04,217 --> 00:59:07,337

Um, you don't have to be a dad, by

the way, to be in that conversation

00:59:07,337 --> 00:59:09,287

because we've all got dads.

00:59:09,617 --> 00:59:13,277

We, we may or may not be

dads spiritual fathers.

00:59:13,277 --> 00:59:15,582

There's a whole bunch of stuff we're gonna

get into, so do come join us for that.

00:59:15,582 --> 00:59:16,217

It'd be great.

00:59:16,637 --> 00:59:19,217

Um, but yeah, thank you

so much for joining us.

00:59:19,217 --> 00:59:21,767

Hopefully see you guys in Google meets.

00:59:22,187 --> 00:59:24,767

Um, have a phenomenal week

wherever you're in the world.

00:59:24,887 --> 00:59:25,577

We'll see you next time.

00:59:25,907 --> 00:59:26,357

Bye for now.