Time for a reality check: you can get incredibly good at making money, but if you don’t heal your relationship with it, you're unlikely to hold onto it for long.
Hey, I'm Katie McManus, business strategist and money mindset coach, and this is my podcast "The Weeniecast!"
Pssssst! Not sure if you've heard, but I'm inviting new members to the best community for business owners with ADHD - the Hyperfocused Community! You can join here - https://weeniecast.com/hyperfocus
Now, back to this episode...
In this episode, "The 3 things stopping you from making money!" I'm sharing the psychological barriers that keep you from not just making money, but actually keeping and accumulating wealth.
From fear and avoidance to the deep-seated trauma we carry about money, this episode is an eye-opener for anyone who's ever struggled with their finances.
Stick around, and you'll learn how to overcome these obstacles and finally let money flow into your life with ease.
By the way, you might be surprised to learn what's actually stopping you from making and keeping money.
We often think it's just about our business strategies or offers.
Sure, raising your prices and creating high-ticket offers are essential, but that's not the whole story.
00:00 Address money anxiety, process, and show compassion.
03:29 Fear and vigilance impact money relationships.
06:30 Fear of financial advisor, find smaller solutions.
12:33 Childhood trauma linked to unsafe environment perception.
13:50 Assess and keep essential subscriptions, eliminate unnecessary ones.
17:20 Processing fear is key to healing trauma.
22:58 Pride in profession, rewrite your money story.
24:05 Assess and improve your relationship with money.
The episode I mention where I talk about money archetypes:
https://player.captivate.fm/episode/84bde141-00d4-4cb9-b9e8-8f38f51a8365
The Trauma of Money program:
https://weeniecast.com/traumaofmoney
Realizing it's time to work with me? Book your free initial strategy call with me - weeniecast.com/strategycall
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Want to just buy me a coffee in return for some helpful insight? Thank you! Here's where you can do that - https://www.buymeacoffee.com/katiethecoach
Mentioned in this episode:
Join the Hyperfocused Community
We're going to start today's podcast off with a little bit of bad news.
Speaker:It really doesn't matter how good you get at making money. If
Speaker:you don't heal your relationship with money, you're not likely to hold
Speaker:onto it for long. Hi, I'm Katie McManus, business strategist and
Speaker:money mindset coach, and welcome to the Weeniecast.
Speaker:So what's actually keeping you from making money and not just making
Speaker:money, but keeping it? Accumulating actual wealth.
Speaker:Now, oftentimes, my clients will start with me, and we'll
Speaker:talk about their business, and we'll talk about their offer, and I'll have
Speaker:to coach them through not being a weenie and raising their
Speaker:prices and creating offers that are high ticket. And
Speaker:all of that is well and good and necessary to making a lot of
Speaker:money. However, that's not the whole
Speaker:story. There's actually a whole slew of other
Speaker:things that can keep you from making more money and keeping
Speaker:it. And today, I want to dive into these things. They
Speaker:happen for so many people.
Speaker:So if you're going through one of these things or multiple, know that you're
Speaker:not alone. Okay. There's a reason why it's common enough that I'm bringing it up
Speaker:on the weenie cast. I want to also acknowledge before
Speaker:we dive into these things, that being good with money
Speaker:is not a willpower thing. It's not something that you're just not trying
Speaker:hard enough with. It's something that is affecting
Speaker:you on a nervous system level. It's affecting you
Speaker:on a subconscious level. There are things
Speaker:that you learned about money before you could even speak, before you
Speaker:could even crawl. There's an energetic exchange you had with
Speaker:your caretakers about what it meant to have money,
Speaker:and you can't willpower yourself out of that. You also can't
Speaker:just simply read a book and be better at it. So have
Speaker:a big old bucket of compassion for yourself. As I go through
Speaker:this, if there's anything that's a little like, oh,
Speaker:that's a sore spot for you, take a moment and really feel through the
Speaker:feelings there. Oftentimes, you know, it's that sense of
Speaker:anxiety when we talk about money that creates this barrier to
Speaker:more money coming to our lives, when we don't give that anxiety
Speaker:power, when we're like, oh, cool, I'm feeling anxiety. Wow. All
Speaker:right, where am I feeling this anxiety in my body and what's happening for me?
Speaker:And we really process it. It makes it far easier to
Speaker:talk about money, to work through our money garbage. And to learn
Speaker:that, like, money's not evil and being quote
Speaker:unquote bad with money is not the end of the world. And to
Speaker:really take the charge away from the money conversation.
Speaker:Okay, so do you have your big bucket of compassion? Great.
Speaker:So first and foremost, let's talk about fear of money and
Speaker:dealing with money. Now, fear can show up in
Speaker:two different ways depending on what your money archetype is. And if you want to
Speaker:learn more about money archetypes, I did a whole bonus episode. So if you go
Speaker:back to the one after episode 87, you can learn more about
Speaker:that. There are two ways in which fear shows up in your
Speaker:relationship with money. Number one is my favorite
Speaker:avoidance. Just not looking at your bank account, just kind of
Speaker:like, I'm just going to trust that everything's going to be okay and it'll be
Speaker:all be fine. And just kind of like hoping and praying when you give your
Speaker:credit card to the person at the grocery store. That was basically
Speaker:my whole twenties. So that is one way in which
Speaker:we have fear show up in our relationship with money. On the
Speaker:extreme opposite side, there is a level of hyper vigilance.
Speaker:So someone who has a lot of fear with their money, they're
Speaker:constantly checking their bank balance, they're constantly
Speaker:checking their credit card statement. They are so aware of where
Speaker:each and every penny that they own is at all times.
Speaker:And of course, there are elements of that that are positive, and there are
Speaker:elements almost of the avoidance bit where there's a lot of optimism that is
Speaker:also kind of positive. However, we want to find
Speaker:a happy medium, all right? We want to take the charge away,
Speaker:that anxiety, that fear, and
Speaker:have our checking in on money not
Speaker:elicit negative feelings. So I want to use an example here because
Speaker:I know everyone gets, like, really crunchy and tight when we talk about money. That'll
Speaker:also make you crunchy and tight, but hopefully won't be super relevant to what you're
Speaker:doing right now. Public speaking. If you're not a
Speaker:big public speaker, if you don't do it often, maybe you don't do it often
Speaker:because you're afraid of getting up on stage and talking to a bunch of
Speaker:people. Avoiding it is not going to help.
Speaker:Avoiding it is just going to keep you being bad at it. And of course
Speaker:you're avoiding it because you're afraid. You're afraid of getting up on stage and making
Speaker:a mistake and looking stupid and looking out into the audience and seeing them fall
Speaker:asleep or look angry. Or maybe you're really into, like,
Speaker:Disney cartoons and you're afraid they're going to throw like old cabbages at
Speaker:you. The only way
Speaker:to deal with your fear of public speaking is to go
Speaker:and speak publicly. It's the only way. You have to
Speaker:desensitize yourself to it. And this is
Speaker:really how we deal with that avoidant type of
Speaker:fear. We have to just give you little baby steps
Speaker:to go and try the thing. So, for instance, if you were wanting to
Speaker:get better at public speaking, one of the exercises you might do if you were
Speaker:to join, say, toastmasters, is they have all these different
Speaker:games that you play where you're speaking publicly because you're answering a question
Speaker:or you're following a prompt, but you're not in front of the
Speaker:room speaking, you're just talking in a
Speaker:room full of people who are listening. And often it's something very
Speaker:silly. And I think there's this
Speaker:misconception when it comes to facing our fears, that when we face our fears,
Speaker:we have to go for the most extreme option. Right, when we face our fears.
Speaker:If you're afraid of heights, like, we're going to go jump out of planes. No,
Speaker:no, that's dumb. If you're afraid of heights, let's get you a little four foot
Speaker:ladder and get you comfortable up top. Let's make you
Speaker:feel like you're not going to die at 4ft, and then let's go up to
Speaker:6ft. Let's figure out ways for you to deal with that fear of heights.
Speaker:Let's figure out smaller ways for you to deal with that fear of public
Speaker:speaking. And let's find smaller ways for you to
Speaker:deal with your fear of dealing with your money.
Speaker:Oftentimes, you know, people think, okay, well, if I'm so bad with
Speaker:money, I have to go and get a financial advisor so that they can deal
Speaker:with my money. But then the next thought immediately is like, oh, my God. But
Speaker:then they're gonna know what a show I am, they're gonna see all this stuff,
Speaker:and then they're gonna judge me. And of course, like, it makes logical
Speaker:sense that that should be the way that you deal with your money. You should
Speaker:hand it off to someone. But if that is just a
Speaker:scary, if having someone else see behind the curtain
Speaker:of all the things that you've been doing, you're not going to do it.
Speaker:So while it might make sense, it's not good advice.
Speaker:And one of the things that I work with a lot of my clients on
Speaker:are what are the smaller things that we can do to
Speaker:desensitize you to the fear of your money. What are the
Speaker:small actions you can take? You know, for some of my
Speaker:clients, it's literally logging into their bank account
Speaker:and checking their balance once a week and doing so after, like,
Speaker:a gratitude meditation and doing some journaling on
Speaker:it. And sometimes, like, giving them full permission to give me a
Speaker:call afterwards if they need to be talked off the ledge. It's not just
Speaker:people who are broke who are terrified of their money. There are
Speaker:some really successful people who are great at
Speaker:making money, who are also afraid to check in on their money. Just
Speaker:because you feel avoidant and afraid of your money doesn't mean
Speaker:that you're a failure. It doesn't mean that you're not going to be successful. It
Speaker:just means you have some fear. And where that fear comes from, we're going to
Speaker:get into in a minute. For the hyper
Speaker:vigilant fear type, the work is a little opposite.
Speaker:The work is far more around. When that fear comes up, when
Speaker:that urge to check your bank balance comes up,
Speaker:checking in with yourself, noticing. Okay, cool. Where is
Speaker:this fear coming from? Do I have a fear that I'm not going to be
Speaker:able to make my rent payment this month? Okay, cool. So I have
Speaker:a fear around being unhoused. Great. And then if I'm
Speaker:unhoused, then it'll make it really hard for me to get mail. I
Speaker:don't know. Like, our brains love to latch onto random
Speaker:things that can happen in the world and just channel all of the fear
Speaker:that we could possibly experience towards that thing. And for the
Speaker:hypervigilant type, learning how to process that fear
Speaker:without checking the bank balance is going to be the practice.
Speaker:Learning to dial back to maybe just checking it once a day and then maybe
Speaker:a couple times a week. For those avoidant types, it's almost like
Speaker:you have, like, an overdose of optimism that has an
Speaker:undercurrent of scarcity. You're just always optimistic that it's going
Speaker:to work out, but you're so afraid of checking because you're, like, pretty sure
Speaker:that you're really skating that line. For those who are hyper
Speaker:vigilant, however, it's all about scarcity. There's not going
Speaker:to be enough. There's not going to be enough. Oh, my God, there's $5 less.
Speaker:And I thought, oh, that's right, I bought a coffee. Just because you have fear
Speaker:around money does not in itself mean that you're bad with money. It means that
Speaker:you're a human who's been raised in a world that has
Speaker:literally taught you to be afraid of money. And not to
Speaker:mention, we'll get to this in a little bit. If you have ADHD,
Speaker:there's also been a ton of messaging about how people with ADHD are
Speaker:impulsive and they're bad with money and
Speaker:they're far more likely to go into credit card debt and so on and so
Speaker:forth. What we're told about our own identity, we do
Speaker:accept. If I tell you that you're a Gemini and being a
Speaker:Gemini means this, this, this and this, you're gonna believe it.
Speaker:It's just human. We love being told, you know, who we are and
Speaker:how we're special and especially how we're f ed up. I want to know all
Speaker:of it. There's a reason why there are so many different like which
Speaker:Hogwarts house, are you a part of tests
Speaker:online? Because people love to be
Speaker:categorized. You take it on as identity. I'm a Gryffindor,
Speaker:thank you very much. Ex speliarmus. So when someone tells you that you have
Speaker:ADHD and then gives you a whole list of traits that go along with it,
Speaker:one of those traits being you're bad with money, guess what you
Speaker:accept as truth. And of course, I just want to acknowledge, again,
Speaker:just listening to this podcast and learning about fear and oh my gosh, I'm an
Speaker:avoidant fear type when it comes to money. That alone is not going to make
Speaker:you better with it. It's not going to take the fear away. It's going to
Speaker:give you some awareness. But there's a lot of work that you have to do.
Speaker:A lot of this work is what I do in my byob. Build
Speaker:your own business group programs and with my one on one clients
Speaker:and it takes a long time and the work is never done.
Speaker:Working on your relationship with money is kind of like being in good
Speaker:physical shape. Unfortunately, you can't work out for
Speaker:three months straight and be in the best shape of your life and then just
Speaker:be fit for the rest of your life. There's a reason why I've decided that
Speaker:if vampires are real, then I plan on devoting myself to a
Speaker:very serious workout regime for several months
Speaker:and then going and finding a vampire and be like, cool, turn me now. Turn
Speaker:me now while I'm in the best shape. I would like to be this way
Speaker:for eternity, thank you very much. Your relationship with money
Speaker:is going to be something that you're going to have to constantly work on and
Speaker:bad news, new level, new devil. Once you work through one thing,
Speaker:there's going to be more stuff until it gets easier.
Speaker:But let me tell you, it's worth it. It's 100% worth it.
Speaker:Okay, so now that we've talked about fear, let's go into something that's a little
Speaker:more serious. Oh, what am I going to say next? Well, you'll have to keep
Speaker:listening to find out. But first, squirrel, squirrel, squirrel, squirrel,
Speaker:squirrel.
Speaker:Let's talk about trauma. There's a lot of trauma associated with
Speaker:money, and I'm talking big t trauma, like
Speaker:a history of financial abuse and little t
Speaker:trauma, where maybe four year old, you
Speaker:overheard your parents fighting about money and started feeling
Speaker:unsafe. Now, trauma does not come from actually being unsafe.
Speaker:Trauma like, it's not like you have to be in a hostage situation at a
Speaker:bank to start feeling a lot of trauma. You know,
Speaker:when we're children, anytime that we perceive
Speaker:the world around us as not being safe and secure, that can cause
Speaker:trauma. So mom and dad screaming at each other in the other
Speaker:room about one of them making a purchase and them not
Speaker:having the money to back it up, and maybe the check bounced. Your
Speaker:caretakers are now very scary to you, and as a
Speaker:four year old, you cannot differentiate them being mad at each
Speaker:other from them just being dangerous and not
Speaker:being the safe person that you know and love.
Speaker:Of course, we're not going to get into a trauma healing on a podcast.
Speaker:It's way too triggering for too many people. And I'm not going to go into
Speaker:details, but this is something that I do with a lot of my clients. I
Speaker:went through the trauma of money certification several years ago, and
Speaker:it was astounding to me the things that even though I had done
Speaker:a ton of work on my money relationship, that I literally
Speaker:took months to be able to do because of the trauma
Speaker:I'd experienced financially. The prime example of this was
Speaker:the very first exercise that program had us do, and it was a very
Speaker:simple exercise where you went through, they gave you a form and you had
Speaker:to do an inventory of all the subscription services that you were signed up
Speaker:for. So anything it could be with
Speaker:your business, personal, you had to make a whole inventory of them. So
Speaker:your Spotify subscription, Netflix, any
Speaker:business subscriptions that you have for maybe like your email
Speaker:marketing or your payment systems, your
Speaker:scheduler, all of it, you had to go through your bank
Speaker:balance. You had to really figure out what subscriptions you are a part of.
Speaker:And then you had to assess if it was something that you still used
Speaker:and if it was something that you still use, then you know, and you still
Speaker:liked and you still were happy with it, then you'd keep it.
Speaker:And if it was something that you didn't use, you know, you'd also ask
Speaker:yourself, why am I keeping this? Why am I staying?
Speaker:Signed up for this? And the answers to that question were
Speaker:fascinating. Oh, you know, like, one person had a subscription to
Speaker:Peloton, and they just really liked
Speaker:knowing that they had the option to do workouts, even though they
Speaker:used it very sporadically. Some people had signed up for stuff and forgotten. I know.
Speaker:We all know that that's a very ADHD thing to do, and it's so
Speaker:easy with all these apps that we could possibly sign up for. Some
Speaker:people went through their subscriptions and were like, oh, my God, I forgot I signed
Speaker:up to that thing. That's amazing. Yeah, I should start using that again.
Speaker:And it was just a great reminder of something that had just fallen out of
Speaker:sight, out of mind. When I was told that this was the first
Speaker:exercise, I was like, oh, cool, this will be easy. And the next day, when
Speaker:I was sitting down to do my homework for the certification, and
Speaker:I looked at this sheet, and then just the mere idea
Speaker:of logging into my credit card and my debit
Speaker:card accounts and looking to see how much I was spending on
Speaker:these subscriptions, I couldn't do it. I literally couldn't do it. I sat
Speaker:there for five minutes just feeling really uncomfortable and, like,
Speaker:a failure for not being able to do it. And I was certain
Speaker:that I was the only person who couldn't do it. I was certain that there
Speaker:was something wrong with me. I just, like, especially coming from
Speaker:someone who coaches others on their relationship with money, I felt like such a
Speaker:failure. Now, fast forward to the next week when we had our next call,
Speaker:and the teacher of the program asked, okay, who was
Speaker:able to do that? And I thought that question was really interesting, who
Speaker:was able to do that exercise?
Speaker:And only about a third of the class was able to raise their hand.
Speaker:Everyone else, you know, didn't really raise their
Speaker:hand. And some people had started it and then stopped like it was too much
Speaker:for them. But a lot of other people, like me, were
Speaker:not even able to start it. It
Speaker:felt too scary. And one of the things that we were taught,
Speaker:you know, early on in this program, is that when you have trauma around
Speaker:money, you can either get hyper vigilant about it,
Speaker:you can get hyper aroused. I know that that brings into mind another thing,
Speaker:but, like, your fear system, your nervous system gets hyper aroused, and you just, like,
Speaker:get into this, like, fight or flight mode, and that's not a great
Speaker:place to be working through your trauma, that's actually just going to re traumatize you
Speaker:on the opposite end, you start disassociating, you
Speaker:fawn, you completely check out emotionally. And
Speaker:that's also not a great place to work through trauma. Cause you're not actually working
Speaker:through it. You're just numbing. Where you want to be is in this
Speaker:window of resilience where your nervous system
Speaker:can be activated. You can absolutely feel
Speaker:unsettled, but you don't feel like you have to run away from
Speaker:it. Now this exercise, I tried doing it
Speaker:for, I want to say, like a month and a half I thought about it.
Speaker:I like really like had to process my emotions around, like, why it was so
Speaker:scary for me. Why was it so hard for me to go and do it?
Speaker:And it was very activating doing that.
Speaker:But going through that process where I literally was not able to do it
Speaker:was all incredibly healing, you know? So just like when we're dealing with
Speaker:basic fears around money, when we're dealing with trauma, we don't have
Speaker:to go to the extreme other end of the spectrum and do like the
Speaker:scariest thing we can think of. Literally, just thinking
Speaker:about, thinking about thinking about doing the thing
Speaker:can help us move towards healing. Now, if you
Speaker:have a great deal of trauma around money, I urge you to go and get
Speaker:some support, either from a trauma trained therapist and you want to be very
Speaker:specific to find a therapist who specializes with trauma.
Speaker:Or if you're. If you're curious about the trauma of money program, I'm going
Speaker:to link it in the show notes so you can go to
Speaker:weeniecast.com trauma of money and check
Speaker:it out. I can't recommend it enough. And of course,
Speaker:if you are wanting to start a business and you want to have an all
Speaker:in one little package, I do all of this within my programs. I help
Speaker:my clients through the trauma of money style of coaching. I
Speaker:don't offer therapy.
Speaker:The third thing that gets in people's way when it comes to
Speaker:making more money and keeping more money is their sense of
Speaker:worthiness. One of the top debates that I have with my clients is
Speaker:on their pricing how much money I think they should be
Speaker:charging for their work and how much money I know they
Speaker:can make from their work. And oftentimes what
Speaker:I'm debating with is not actually their higher
Speaker:self. It's not like the part of them that understands the value they
Speaker:provide. It's the part of them that thinks that there's a reason why they can't
Speaker:charge more. We're incredibly good at collecting
Speaker:evidence about why we're not good enough. It's kind of like
Speaker:that movie mean girls. You know, how, like, the popular girls have that burn
Speaker:book where they say all these nasty, mean things about everyone else.
Speaker:I mean, we all have that on ourselves.
Speaker:We all have a whole collection of
Speaker:memories and data and proof that we're not
Speaker:good enough, that there are other people who are better than us. That,
Speaker:like, of all of our failures, of all the times that we fell
Speaker:short. And it's especially prevalent
Speaker:for folks with ADHD because we aren't just getting this
Speaker:feedback verbally from people. We're not just
Speaker:having very clear instances of, like, falling short on stuff like,
Speaker:the world is not designed for us, you know, how the world
Speaker:is designed just does not work for us. So we don't thrive in it. We
Speaker:don't thrive with how other people organize their desks. We
Speaker:don't thrive with how schools organize their schedules. When we
Speaker:hear that being a part of the 05:00 a.m. club works for a bunch of
Speaker:other people and it doesn't work for us, that is a little failure.
Speaker:All these things, it's this constant gaslighting that we should
Speaker:be better, that it should be easier. Why is it so hard? Oh, it must
Speaker:just be your willpower. Oh, you must not be good enough. You must not be
Speaker:smart enough. And all of that garbage erodes
Speaker:at your sense of self worth, your sense of deserving.
Speaker:And oftentimes that corresponds with what you're willing to
Speaker:charge. Oftentimes it corresponds with how
Speaker:much money you allow yourself to keep at the end of the day.
Speaker:I've spoken with some really
Speaker:talented, incredible human beings
Speaker:who are kind and funny and intelligent and
Speaker:have decades of experience who've
Speaker:spent so much money on different aspects of their business
Speaker:to prove that they're worthy of the business.
Speaker:You can make hundreds of thousands of dollars in your business and spend
Speaker:all of it trying to prove that you're good enough. You can also
Speaker:completely under charge trying to get
Speaker:testimonials to prove that your work
Speaker:is good enough before you raise your rates. And if
Speaker:you're guilty of that, know that you're not alone. Most of the people who sign
Speaker:up for my programs do that in the beginning, but don't do it, because all
Speaker:it does is train people that you're really cheap.
Speaker:The last little bit here is I want to talk about your track record. You
Speaker:know, all the things that you've done in the past that, like, quote unquote,
Speaker:mean that you're bad with money. Maybe you're an impulsive
Speaker:shopper. Maybe you're one of those people who really enjoys going
Speaker:to target and just letting target speak to you, and all of a sudden you
Speaker:have a $300 bill. I obviously have never been there. I've
Speaker:never done that myself. Just kidding. I have totally done that. Maybe
Speaker:you're an emotional shopper. Maybe when you're feeling really stressed out, you learned
Speaker:early on that going and buying something makes you feel better,
Speaker:which, by the way, is actually a soothing mechanism. It is a
Speaker:self care mechanism that you learned early on. It's actually a trauma response
Speaker:in a lot of ways. Your track record of your salary up
Speaker:until now, you know, if you've been massively underpaid for
Speaker:most of your career, you've basically been told by every
Speaker:authority figure that you've known that you're not worthy enough, you're
Speaker:not worth more money. This is a big conversation that I have to have with
Speaker:clients who used to be teachers when they start their own business, because
Speaker:oftentimes we have to separate them from this pride
Speaker:of doing more work for less money. Because, I mean, that's what
Speaker:happens in the teaching profession. That's what happens in the nursing profession. Any
Speaker:profession where you're expected to give more and accept less, of
Speaker:course, pride is going to be associated with it because the human
Speaker:spirit cannot survive thinking that they
Speaker:can't be proud of what they're doing. So whether you've made really bad
Speaker:money choices in the past, whether you have some
Speaker:questionable spending habits, or whether you've had
Speaker:a history of being underpaid, yes, it's easy to take
Speaker:all that and be like, cool. Here's the evidence of how much money I deserve.
Speaker:Here's the evidence of what I can be trusted with. You can
Speaker:absolutely go with that story, or you can write a new
Speaker:one, because I want to remind you that your past does not
Speaker:determine your future. And of course, if you're struggling with any of this,
Speaker:if you aren't really sure how you're being held back by your relationship with
Speaker:money, if you have a lot of fear around charging
Speaker:more, how to keep your money, how to really feel
Speaker:safe and secure with money coming in, then I
Speaker:invite you to book a generate income strategy call with me. In this
Speaker:call, we'll really assess what's going on with your relationship with money, how it's
Speaker:impacting your business, and really creating limitations for you in the business.
Speaker:And if it makes sense, we can talk about a few of my programs where
Speaker:we work very heavily on your relationship with money. If you
Speaker:want to go and book that, then go to weeniecast.com
Speaker:strategycallen
Speaker:Squirrel, squirrel, squirrel, squirrel.