Today's episode features Jen Hall, Head of Strategic Partnerships in Southeast Asia and India for Ampverse. Ampverse is an esports company that focuses on team development, influencer relationships, and key strategic partnerships in Southeast Asia and India. Our discussion was centered on gaming culture in Asia, taking a different approach to monetization and fan engagement, and what Web3/blockchain gaming have to offer. Plus, we talk about how Nescafe gave fans the chance to play with their esports heroes.

Episode Resources

https://ampverse.com/jenny-hall/

https://techcrunch.com/2022/03/28/singapore-based-esports-startup-ampverse-lands-12m/

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And from struggle to success. We're covering it all returning

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your thoughts. And for all the new listeners out there. I hope

you enjoy and I hope you'll come back next week. This is going to

be such a fun conversation about esports in the market in

Southeast Asia. I'm delighted to welcome Jen Hall, head of

strategic partnerships in Southeast Asia and India for

Amber's. Jen, welcome to the show. It's so great to have you.

Hi, Lindsay, thank you so much for having me. I've been looking

forward to this for ages. Yes, me too. i To start, I would love

for you to tell me a little bit about your current position and

apologies and versus a company. I know, we're gonna walk through

a lot of the background. But I definitely want to hear, you

know, what you do what you love, what it's all about now, the

first? Oh, sure. So thanks very much for the introduction. So I

am head of strategic partnerships at amphis. And we

are a gaming and entertainment company operating across

Southeast Asia and South Asia. So our vision really is to bring

inspiration to every gamer everywhere. So we're on a real

mission to develop innovative esports teams, talents, and also

products. So we own and operate championship winning esports

teams across the region, Thailand, Vietnam, India, soon

to launch in the Philippines. And then Indonesia, probably at

the latter part of this year or early next year, as well. So I

can sort of talk a little bit about my role as well at the

moment. Yes, yeah. So for those of you that are listening and

not watching, you should definitely go look at the

YouTube video because Jen's cat is just being an absolute

author, making a great appearance today. So welcome

pets on the show.

She's such an attention seeker. She absolutely loves it. And so

yeah, so going back to sort of my role. Oh, here she is, again.

And it really splits into kind of two key parts. So the first

part is all about product development. So for us, it's all

about focusing on developing our own IP, and really further

gaming and esports communities that sit at the intersection, of

course of popular culture. So initially, when we first

launched back in 2019, we were really focused on our esports

teams and sponsorship opportunities, and also very

much on sort of the influencer campaigns. And this really made

sense for a lot of brands as well that we were partnering

with, because of course, for a lot of them, they were really

just starting to dip their toes into sort of gaming and esports

space. But as things have developed, obviously, the

industry has matured somewhat. And now having secured our

Series A developing our own IP products has become a really

kind of crucial part of that. So it's everything from to

developing original content series to fan powered events and

tournaments. And also now very much focused as well on web

three, the metaverse and also this space of NFT, and

activations, which I know we'll be talking more about later. So

that's kind of the first part. So it's really about product.

And then the second part, I'm very focused as well, obviously,

on the partnership side. So for us, it's about focusing on where

are those mutually beneficial partnerships that we can find

that will help to elevate the profile of our esports teams and

talents. And at the same time, of course, be able to elevate

the presence of that that brand, as well across the gaming and

esports communities in the region. So that can be anything

from sort of partnerships with music labels, and artists,

through to apparel brands, also charities.

And also as well with media and broadcasting as well,

particularly for the original.

So many things to dig into. And I was, you know, we started

chatting right before this. And so there's a question that I

really, really want to ask, even though it's not even close to

the first question on the list that I have written here. Um,

but we're talking about developing partnerships,

strategies and sponsorship strategies. And being a

relatively young organization. I mean, two and a half, three

years is is probably actually quite old for esports. But it's

also young in terms of building a company and fleshing out a

strategy and so much of that was the COVID pandemic, which just

threw a wrench in everyone's business plans.

I would love to talk about because you

mentioned that you started with a lot of influencer partnerships

and things like that. And how has it changed from content

marketing focus to event focused? Like, what is the?

How have you been approaching partnerships? From the like, we

were just talking about it, but IRL versus digital, you have

like the IRL, the events, the teams, all that stuff that you

can do all kinds of and engagement with. And then you

also have social media, Twitch streams, all that stuff that you

can do digital engagement with. So what have you how has this

changed in the third year? And what are you kind of looking

forward to with balancing those two things? Yeah, great

question. So, um, I think in the past, you know, and obviously,

during COVID, everything had to move online. So, you know, being

given that Gen Z, and millennials really are the core

of the the gaming space as well, particularly, and very much from

an esports perspective as well, it really wasn't too much of a

difficult transition, as you as you mentioned, already, everyone

engaging with all of these platforms like YouTube and

Facebook, and also to some degree in this region as well

with rich, although I would say to a slightly lesser extent. So

really, it was, it was very natural for us. I think for a

lot of brands, as I mentioned, you know, sort of gaming was

really quite abstract, and that no one really kind of understood

it. But as we went through the COVID, period, it was really

about a process of education, obviously, gaming grew and

esports, as well, exponentially. And a lot of brands started to

realize the importance of, you know, understanding the space.

So it was really very important for us to start at the Education

phase, and developing a lot of sort of insights around that to

really help the brands understand. And so sort of the

natural progression for them was to start with the influences.

It's something that they knew, obviously, outside of gaming.

And so obviously, that was kind of an easy in. And of course,

for us, you know, the data element behind that was really

important, just showcasing the sheer amount of engagement that

was happening and the level of viewership as well, both both

for our esports teams, but also for the influences that we have,

as well in the market. And it really was a whole different

combination of different content formats, as well. So everything

from you know, the sort of online esports tournaments

through to watching our Kol is in gameplay, and then also off

the back of that then sort of entertainment series that

actually UGC was a huge part of that. And of course, that didn't

really interrupt our gaming Kol. Like they could still capture a

lot of footage and create entertaining content. So that

was kind of the first part. And then that really then started to

develop more into kind of tournaments as well. So things

like online show matches with some of these top influencers,

which which proved really engaging. And I've actually kind

of got some other examples to be able to share later.

And so brands really started to see the benefit of of engaging

with these sort of different types of online formats as well,

during that time. You know, they're all trying to fight the

eyeballs. And of course, this is where everyone was, was drawn to

during that time as well. So it was a great, it was a great

opportunity to engage with the community then. But it really

did come back to kind of showcasing the data behind that

to really kind of give them that that level of reassurance.

Have you noticed? And again, we were actually just speaking

about this before, but on the consumer end, have you noticed

if people are finally starting to kind of come back to in

person events? Or has there been more of a strong preference for

online stuff still? Like, are you seeing that article?

Really good question. So to be honest, in the first part of

this year, I would say it's definitely still been very much

more focused on the online. I think a lot of people were still

kind of treading carefully in this earlier in this year,

particularly in a lot of the Southeast Asia markets, you

know, it took a lot longer for us to sort of come out the other

side of things like lock downs versus a lot of the Western

countries. So the focus was still very much online. I think

last year cup to get share a kind of couple of examples. With

you. I think one of the examples that we have from Thailand was

we we ran a online sort of show matching tournament last year

for NES cafe, to be able to promote their

their espresso product that they were launching in the market.

And their key objective because they couldn't reach consumers

offline was to really generate awareness through the Gen Z

audience, but also to drive actual purchase. So we actually

set up an online tournament with our top gaming influencers in

Thailand and ran a competition. So for every espresso cam that

was purchased, the shopper could actually register that purchase

online and then they had a chance to win a spot to play in

The tournaments with their influence idols, and win all

sorts of cool prizes at the same time. So that was a really cool

activation. Yeah.

It was really well received, we actually just won an award for

it from the media agency association of Thailand, which

was really exciting.

But yeah, I think that was a great example of how you know, a

brand really engaged with this space and really understood the

benefits of being able to activate through an online

initiative as well with the community. And of course,

ultimately, still drive that that engagement and purchase

behavior as well. And then another example, this year that

we ran, actually in India was a collaboration with Gillette. So

we created a pro esports tournament online called the

Gillette and seven seat Invitational, which we ran in

partnership with spaceports, our partner in India. And we

achieved over 83 million impressions for that particular

campaign. It was a nine day tournament, all online, a

fantastic opportunity for our audience as well to be able to

engage with the Gillette brands. And in fact, we have just run a

community survey recently, with our seven C community. We've

seen fantastic results in tons of that brand sentiment as well

for Gillette, and then Mac three product, which essentially was a

partnership that they forged as well, with the GMI in the

market. So a lot of it has still very much been these kinds of

online activations in various different forms. But certainly a

big focus for me now as well in my role is all about these in

person, and powered events as well. So we're starting to build

out hyperlocal

events in each of our local markets. We're thinking on this

of this in a very broad way, though. So it's all about sort

of gaming and lifestyle. So there are various different

elements that we're going to be interacting into those sort of

programs, everything from sort of the esports element side, to

also web three with playing, earn gaming, so giving the

community an opportunity to participate and learn about the

opportunities with the playing and bass games with NF T's, as

well, which we will also be integrating into the space. And

I think, yeah, those kinds of opportunities to actually bring

the fans together in person, and an opportunity to sort of

interact in that level, and also ensure that we've got a lot of

immersive experiences that they can join person as well will be

really important. But I really think that it's, you know, the

two are very synergistic, you know, there's a huge amount of

overlap between the online and offline. So whilst a lot of

these offline events will be taking place, it's still

absolutely crucial that a lot of this is captured for the online

audience at the same time.

That makes sense. I have kind of two follow up questions there,

especially since we started talking about web three and

NFPs, which is great. So much fun for me. Um, the first and

this is this is backing up a little bit, but what are the

major streaming providers that you use? And, and I want, I'm

curious, because I, I know about, you know, Billy, Billy,

and dou, u and China, but I don't know how far that market

extends and where it's at in Southeast Asia. So that's kind

of the first question of we have put here. What do you all use?

And then the second question about, you know, web three and N

FPS is what is the reception like with the audience that

you're working with? Again, the North American audiences had a

very, say checkered response to incorporating NF Ts and playing

our games. So yeah, so what are the sharing platforms? And

what's the attitude towards web three and crypto games where

you're at? Awesome. So I think, to answer your first question,

kind of taking it back a step, I think one of the most important

things for people to understand is that Asia as a whole is

extremely fragmented. You know, it's very different to working

in the US or Europe. 100 Yeah, yeah, sorry, just interrupted.

That's what I was thinking. I was like, I feel like the

Chinese streaming services are not going to be popular in

Southeast Asia. They're certainly very different.

And China sort of is a is a beast of its own, to be honest,

but you know, everything from from the language element

through to all of the different cultural nuances. I think it's

really important to understand that every market is extremely

different, and we have to take them in isolation. So, you know,

for us as a business, it's really important that we take a

hyperlocal approach as well to everything that we do. So

answering your question about the streaming platforms. It's

really interesting that you generally see if I'm going to

generalize that YouTube is actually the most prominent

platform across the region.

It's really seen a huge level of success over the years

But there definitely are different iterations across each

of the markets as well. So Facebook is also extremely

popular in certain markets. So for instance, in the

Philippines, Facebook is a much bigger platform for the gaming

and esports community than YouTube. And then in India, it's

still very much about YouTube. But then you've also got some of

these new streaming platforms emerging like Loco and also

router as well, who essentially refer to themselves as the

twitch of India. So that's a really different an interesting

dynamic there. So yes, it's definitely really fragmented.

And we really have to take every market and isolation to assess,

which is the optimum platform that we want to be able to

execute on

in each market, as well, and depending on the type of

application.

And then what were the attitudes towards web replan on games and

lefties in games? Like I said, in the US and North America,

it's not good, which is sad to me personally. But I would love

to know, like, what the attitudes are, like, where

you're at and who you're working with? Yeah, for sure. So, um,

like, I think there's definitely a huge amount of hype, I think

one of the first exciting things to mention as that we are fully

invested in this space. So in fact, we just hosted our web

three launch event around two weeks ago in Bangkok, which was

fantastic. There's a huge amount of interest and excitement. In

fact, we well oversubscribed on the guest list as well, because

I think so many people are really interested to learn about

this space. And so sort of off the back of that, I think, yeah,

one of the key elements here is, is education. I think there's a

lot of people who are extremely skeptical.

But I think at the same time, there's a lot of people who are

eager to learn. So both on the b2b level and learn about the

opportunities there. We are already forging a lot of

different exciting partnerships with virtual worlds and the

metaverse also with some of these global game publishers in

the space, the likes of an Animoca brands or, or a gala or

spy neighbors, etc, which is super exciting. But it's also

really interesting when we conducted surveys with our

esports communities recently, around our teens, there's been a

huge level of interest in learning about crypto and the

NFT space, and also play and earn. So actually recently with

some of the surveys that we conducted in Thailand with our

bacon time community, who were very mobile focused, and then

our myth community who are much more PC focused around 85 to 95%

said they were essentially interested to learn about crypto

and the blockchain gaming space. So

there's a huge amount of interest here, and also those

that actually want to learn more about playing earn.

And so, you know, we first see there's a huge opportunity, you

know, with this younger generation, but it's very much

about taking the first steps on on education, and giving them a

level of confidence there as well. So making sure that

everything that we do is focused on entertainment and having fun

at the core, I think that's crucial, as we know, for any

part of gaming, so every single activation that we are going to

be taking this space has to be entertaining and fun at its

core. And also, I think really losing the jargon. There's so

much jargon around from the metaverse and crypto and NF T's.

And I think everyone just feels totally overwhelmed. So I think

it's about ensuring that we're creating a sense of simplicity

around it as well, to help people really understand and

then engage with the space. So

I definitely think we've kind of got a lot of opportunity there

with people in terms of interest levels. And I think the other

thing to bear in mind is that, you know, from from a web three

perspective as well, like gaming has been at the core of that

since like the start right. You know, you've had Roblox which

started back in 2006, which is crazy to think and they've got

like something crazy, like over 200 million daily active users,

you know, so from from that element, and where we've got

that younger audience who are very much digital natives, who

are already interacting and finding their their sort of

social interactions taking place a lot of the time in this space

as well. It's also quite natural to them.

So as we see the development more of like these new virtual

worlds in the metaverse, so we've got like the likes of

sandbox and decentraland. And there's sort of a whole host of

new virtual worlds opening up at the time. I foresee that

actually, it's really natural fit with the esports and gaming

communities as well. So

I envisage that you know, the uptake is only going to continue

to increase and from the play and and space as well. I think

this is really interesting. So, for us as part of our web three

business pillar, we've actually developed our new

I'm guild, I'm focused on Play and earn blockchain based games.

So we really want to be able to open up an opportunity for all

players to earn for the time and effort that they're spending,

playing these sorts of games. So ultimately, like giving people

control and ownership back of the time and money that they're

spending when they gaming, which of course has in the past, not

not been possible in the in the same way. So, for us, we really

want to open up these opportunities, and develop a

sense of community, which again, is at the core of everything

that we want to really achieve and do so an opportunity for

everyone to be able to play, reap the rewards of that.

And yeah, even at the next level, then think about how we

can then take that to the competitive level. So start to

pick out some of those real top players in this space as well.

Which in the webinar spaces is sorry, playing on Spaces is

referred to as scholars, and actually starting to forge our

own esports teams in the space to

pause really quick and we'll edit this out. But would you

mind putting your camera off and then back on you've gotten

frozen? I don't think it's going to be an issue in the upload.

But it's hard for me to tell.

Is that better?

Actually, still frozen, but should be uploading correctly.

The only reason I was asking is okay.

Yeah, I think that's the studio. Okay. Good thing is what I see.

And what gets uploaded are two very different things. Okay.

It I'm not worried as long as everything said, upload.

Sure.

It's

good.

A second?

No, I'm doing anything, but don't worry about it. Like I

said, I will, like, as it will get uploaded properly, I just

can't see it live. Okay, so I'll try this totally fine. It's not

a problem at all. I have a feeling that my computer's

offloaded over. I think that's why

it gets mad at me when I use Riverside for too long. But

that's okay. No worries. Um, so I'm gonna give a 321 Countdown

and then we'll get right back into it.

321.

So following up on all that, I would love to hear because you

mentioned right at the end, and this is actually a perfect segue

into the question that I wanted to ask. Um, you started talking

about developing esports teams and getting competitive players

on a roster. To then, you know, do all the partnership

sponsorship things that you're doing with AMP first?

I'm wondering.

So, first of all, it's just funny to me to think about a

player playing a play in earn game and then also streaming it

and making money on top like, that's, that's great. That's a

good thing. It's just like the best form of double dipping, I

can think of honestly, but I'm wondering what that looks like.

Like, are you when you're talking about developing esports

teams, particularly for players and kind of using newer spaces?

Especially? Are you thinking about them in the same way that

you're thinking of, say, a competitive CSGO? Team? And I

would imagine that it's going to be different, but what elements

are you kind of taking from I guess, we're already getting to

the point where it's traditional esports structure and thinking

about bringing those into web three. And where do you think

there might be differences? Yeah, absolutely. So um, great

question. Um, certainly, from the differences perspective, I

would say it's, it's more around sort of the game titles that are

already out there in the plan space already, and versus what

is obviously there from a traditional esports perspective,

I think just taking a step back very quickly. In terms of the

games, it's probably worth me pointing out that obviously,

given that this market is so fragmented, in Southeast Asia,

there's a huge difference in terms of the game titles that

are actually being played, and a lot of which will be very

different to the to the US and Europe as well. So you know, our

esports teams in Thailand, we have two, one called Bacon time,

which is focused on mobile games. They play arena of Valor,

which is the most popular game in that market. It's actually

known as honor of kings in China, but that's extremely

popular in Thailand, and then also in Vietnam. However, if we

then go and look at, you know, markets like the Philippines and

Indonesia, you've then got mobile titles like mobile

legends Bang Bang, which is

extremely popular as well as an esports title and then also Dota

two. And then in India you have BGI, which is no battlegrounds

mobile India, which essentially is the same game as pub G

mobile, but it was actually relaunched as BGI by Crafton in

the market as sort of political conflict between India and China

actually prevented a lot of the Chinese apps from from being

present in the market anymore. So in terms of the game titles,

these esports titles as well that the teams are playing,

they're extremely diverse across the region. But what I would say

is that, you know, the most important thing is that they

are, you know, high quality, obviously, highly competitive

and fun. So I think from from my point of view of the playing and

space,

this is only just starting to reach a point really, where

there are games being launched into the market that are really

starting to fit the bill to be classified as an esports. Game.

So in fact, there's one particular game at the moment

that are playing own guilds have been already hosting

tournaments, as well, we ornaments for the community to

enjoy. And that's called a spider tanks, which is published

by dollar games.

So we've already noticed a really significant uptake as

well for this particular game format. So much so that we

actually even took our plan on guilty and esports teams. And

also there were a range of other esports students from across

Africa, parts of Europe, as well to actually play in a plan and a

blockchain based game esports tournament in Dubai. So that was

awesome. I want to say that I think it's the first esports

team and esports tournaments, sorry, that has actually been

hosted as a LAN event for any blockchain based games to date,

which was super exciting.

So cool, really cool. And in fact, sort of going back to your

point about the players side as well, we actually had one of our

ex pro players actually playing in our field esports team for

that specific event. And there are a number of our players that

have actually really enjoyed the experience of playing this

specific title. And they really feel that it's, it's a

competitive game that actually really has legs. So um, so we're

heavily invested in games, really, that actually have that

esports element around them, as well. So again, making it more

exciting for the community, allowing us to set up

tournaments, with prize balls, etc. So yeah, I think I think

there's still a long way to go. But definitely, we're starting

to see more of an emergence of sort of these plant based games

that have that really competitive button element and a

high enough quality to really justify kind of that that

esports title as well.

That is so cool. I can't believe that there's already tournaments

happening, you know, I feel like everything is coming. I mean,

it's, it's tech, so everything moves at the speed of wine, of

course. Um, that's a really, really me, and exciting. That's

really cool. Um, let's back up for a second and actually talk

about you because we've been talking about ampars. This whole

time, I plan for the episode was to talk about you first and then

get into some of the work you're doing. But we just started off

on such cool roads, I couldn't help but follow them. So I want

to back up. And I want to know how you wound up getting

involved in a young person. Here. You are talking about web

three gaming, you're, you're one of the few people I've met, who

does that really often, you know, like, how did you get

here? What's your story with that? Good question. Really good

question. And it's not a conventional story at all my, my

actual background wasn't in gaming. Really, before I joined

us. I was a bit of a gamer when I was sort of much younger, and

in my teens. So starting from playing games on my dad's PC

like Prince of Persia, I'm now showing my age.

So I used to love such a good one, though. It's

absolute classic. I used to love that. So I'm famous like Prince

of Persia, have you seen Mario Kart and so that that was a big

feature in our household all the way through to then getting

really into quake as well. So my dad will be quake and I started

quite obsessed with that game. But really, that kind of that

kind of interesting gaming sort of stopped in my late teens, you

know, I was going to university etc. And so yeah, that like,

from that time, gaming didn't really kind of feature. I

actually left university and went to cancer, which is a part

of WPP and essentially, I was working on on a graduate scheme,

and they cancel Worldpanel division. So I was dealing at

the time with consumer and shopper insights in grocery, so

a very, very different world.

I watched them in London.

For about three years, I'm really kind of soaking up like a

sponge, all of the kind of key soft skills that I was able to

develop. So how to kind of assess data and develop insights

on how to create proposals how to pitch to clients, and most

importantly, also being able to really manage client

relationships. And I think that's, that's something that,

for me has always been the biggest passion point. I love

working with people. And obviously trying to make sure

that I'm kind of giving them the best possible service

as possible. So yeah, I work I've worked for them for about

three years. I always had a love for Asia, I traveled in Asia

already for a number of years, as well as specifically

Thailand, a role came up in Thailand, that was supposed to

be a six months a comment. And it turned into six and a half

years. And so I was doing a very similar role to be up but I had

the opportunity to travel all over Asia, meeting new clients

presenting I was in China one week, Taiwan, the Philippines,

Vietnam, so you name it, I went everywhere. And I was just so

lucky to have such a fantastic opportunity and, and really kind

of get under the skin of Asia and the different markets and

the different cultural nuances as well. So yeah, I worked for

them. In time for about six and a half years, I then moved with

my role and started working on the Procter and Gamble account,

but for Asia, and working with the global png haircare team as

well out of Singapore. So

that's 11 and a half years of my career have gone, which was

fantastic. And I had so many learnings and develop so many

core skills as well, the experience of working in Asia,

of course, was was fantastic. But I really kind of had that

drive as well to move more into the kind of the creative space.

So I actually went to completely the opposite side, I went from

working in a massive corporate to working from at to working

for SMEs and startups. So I actually worked for two global

open source creative platforms, helping creators essentially,

freelancers, etc, to be able to kind of partner up with the big

global brands on their creative campaigns. And actually, the

latter company that I worked with is where I really started

getting into the gaming space again.

So, you know, gaming was just starting to be talked about a

lot as well, and the industry and the opportunities, and I was

pitching to the likes of EA, and then also Animoca brands, as

well, who are a blockchain based developer and publisher, and

also a venture capitalist company as well. So that was

when I really started to jump into the gaming space and really

realized how much I loved it and very passionate about the

opportunity sets kind of community that surrounded

gaming, as well. And also just the sheer sense of diversity as

well. So it really fascinated me, I met my now boss, when we

were actually starting a discussion on potentially

partnering up at the time between our two companies, he

was just launching campus. And in fact, that ended up then

being a job offer on the table for me to join them. So that was

in November 2019. So I'll be honest, I was very nervous. I

think purely, purely my, the pressure being on myself as

well, because, you know, I really didn't feel overly

confident yet in the gaming space, I'd only sort of starting

to learn the industry for about a year or so. But I was also

super excited. And I think one of the key things for me, and

I've sort of always had instilled in me as well, as you

know, you can achieve anything if you really set your mind to

it and dedicate your time and you work hard. So for me, it was

all about the research element. I was reading so many articles,

watching videos, and really trying to get under the skin of

the gaming and esports space in the region. So yeah, it's it's

been a fantastic opportunity. And yeah, it's kind of brought

me brought me to where I am today, two and a half years

later in my dream job.

Which is so fun. I this is a question that I've been, I think

we've talked a little bit about when I when I initially met you.

But one thing I would love to know about is if you were able

to kind of bring a lot of the consumer insights work into what

you do now, I would imagine that that's an extremely valuable

knowledge base to have when you're trying to build an

audience and build a brand. So what what came over from your

time working in consumer insights? They Yeah, no super

good point. Well, I think from the start having been very

immersed in kind of the data and insights space, I think for me,

it was a crucial element of sort of generating an educational

piece for well one myself but also for for potential clients

and

partners as well, and in this particular space, so data and

insights to me have always been a fundamental part of, you know,

working together with any brands and partners as well, to really

give them the reinsurance of the opportunity within the space.

And also where you know, that there's that level of

authenticity and the right fit, as well. So, you know, trying to

understand the trends in the markets, as I mentioned early,

you know, this region, particularly is extremely

fragmented. So it's really important to understand the

nuances in every single market. And so, for me, that was a huge

learning that I actually took from, from my days working in

the market research world as well, really being able to take

that data and create stories, as well around around the

communities in each of the markets, and really being able

to highlight what those business opportunities might be. And of

course, you know, there's so many different opportunities,

and this is why we're developing such a, an extensive suite of

products as well. So, you know, it's the same with with any form

of kind of creative and advertising, you know, for some

brands, it's going to be a best fit to be focusing sort of on

the on the original content opportunities as well, and how

to reach the community in in other respects, it might be

tournaments, because actually, the brand itself is the right

fit, who they're the audiences that, you know, they have that

natural synergy there. And the messaging as well. So there's so

many different opportunities and routes, but I think everything

comes back to the data and insights and trying to ensure

that we've got sort of an authentic bit between the sort

of the products that we are proposing to the brands, and how

they can best reach that their target audience, as well. So I

would say that is definitely the one thing that has definitely

been instilled into me from the start. So going along with that,

and your experience, as someone who has worked a lot of consumer

insights in the data, how are you able to like, I guess this

is more of an advice question, what advice would you give to

someone who is looking to identify where they can fill in

a gap? Like what questions do you ask yourself?

To be able to say like, Okay, I want to be the one that

organizes tournaments, or I want to be the one that makes content

plays, like, for anyone out there who's working on a team or

is interested in working with, you know, esports, at large?

What questions do you ask yourself to know what you should

be doing?

Very good question. So I think one of the most important and

the and the front of fundamental part really is, who are that

audience? So who are these people that are actually kind of

engaging in this specific space? So, for instance, if it if it's

content series, and we're trying to think about, what are the

platforms that we should be looking at in terms of

distribution? You know, who are the audience base on each of

these platforms as well? And are they going to be the right fit

for this, this content series that we're actually planning to

develop?

And then off the back of that? Who are the appropriate talents

that we then want to bring into that content series as well? So

it's very much trying to gain an understanding initially of like,

who are those people that we're trying to reach? Where can we

best find them? So on which platforms? Or if it's, if it's

an offline events, you know, from a location perspective,

what's the kind of footfall? Who are the types of, you know, sort

of shoppers or consumers who are going to be attending in those

spaces? as well? Or? And then And then also, like, how do we

design a program that is going to best fit for that audience.

And also then for for the brands, or partners that we're

going to be involving, but everything really first starts

with the audience and who we're trying to reach? And on what

platforms that we can actually best reach them overall. And

then the next part is about who do we, you know, what do we want

to feature in that program? Who do we want to integrate? Who is

then going to appeal to that audience? And who is also then

an authentic fit with with that brand partner that we're

bringing in, as well. So there's many different elements that we

kind of have to factor in into that understanding.

And, yeah, there's, I'd say that one of the most challenging

things still to date is sort of centralized research. resources.

I think that's still one of the biggest challenges for the

gaming and the esports industry as a whole. You know, we've

there's so many different avenues and routes and sources

that you can tap into. So I still very much find that trying

to build out a story can be extremely time consuming and

quite a challenge. There's a lot of different sources that you

can go to but having said that, I'm noticing that there's still

a wealth of information that is still starting to build out

there. You know, we've got the lights of Newzoo

I have a great source of kind of top line data for the gaming and

esports space. And they really do start to drill down into

specific regions and markets in Asia as well, which is

fantastic. Also the likes of YouGov, they actually created a

fantastic white paper thought leadership piece last year,

which was fantastic, all about sort of profiling gamers and the

platforms that they that they like to watch and consume

esports all the way through to kind of the profile of who these

fans are, as well. So there was a huge amount of insight in

that, but we're definitely having to still cherry pick a

lot from from various different sources to really get to the

crux of, you know, what it what does this kind of industry look

like and and how can we best activate and, and execute within

that as well. And, and also, of course, then bringing in the

brand partners and making sure that there's that level of

authenticity, too.

So for us, as I mentioned earlier, that, you know,

conducting our community surveys has been really important, and

also really interesting. So I mentioned earlier, some of those

learnings that we also understood by playing around

were a huge amount of the community were really interested

in crypto. But obviously, they still felt they have learned a

lot and there was a lot of education needed. So you know,

that's a learning we can take when we're going to go and have

to chat to potential crypto partners and sponsors as well.

And, you know, let them know that obviously, as a

foundational element, if you want to try and really engage

with this audience, and connect with them, we've got to think

about how can we start with it with an educational focus in a,

in a fun way, we know the community want to learn? How can

we achieve that?

So yeah, there's that the community surveys have

definitely been invaluable to us to understand what does our

community really want? What do they look for, you know, if I'm

going to be thinking about who am I going to partner with from

a music label, or artists perspective, you know, who do

these community community members resonate with? Like,

who's important to them? You know, we, again, being

fragmented markets, we can't just assume that we can develop

one partnership that will be a fit all for the whole region,

you know, every market is different. So understanding

those local market nuances, understanding our community as

well is really important.

That makes so much sense. And I so I formerly worked as in a

data analytics position. And yes, the lack of data for me is,

is one of the toughest parts about esports. Like, there's

nothing to run a

lot of hours of Googling and searching the net, for, you

know, all sorts of different insights to try and build

together the stories and that, you know, what, that so much out

there, there is so much out there, but But I think, you

know, there's still a long way to go before we can we can

really kind of, you know, find a sort of sense, more centralized

sources, ultimately to really help us kind of tell those,

those stories as effectively as possible. Yeah, Hugo has been in

news, you have both been very helpful, but I'm definitely

looking forward to, because they put out really great insights,

right. But I want like the back end stuff, you know, I want the

data.

In English industry, we're just not at a point in the industry

where those datasets and everyone who's ever been in data

knows that the hardest part about being a data is getting

the dataset together. Like this is not a novel problem. And by

any means. It's just that the fact that I mean, if you compare

to like so many of like grocery industry, there's like 100 plus

years worth of stuff you can look at. And it's just it's just

different. This is such a young industry. So there's time but

yeah, definitely creating building those data sets. And

like, oh, there's no Bureau of Labor Statistics for esports.

Not, not at all. No, no, yes, it is. It is a dream of mine to get

there someday. But I totally understand that theme. I'm Jen,

you've just given me so much to think about, which has been so

great. I'm going to quickly summarize some of the points

that we talked about. And then we'll get into our last section

here. So we started with online services and influencers, games

and tournaments, even online generate lots of UGC that helped

further build the brand. Focus still online, it doesn't even

have to necessarily be in real life, you can still have these

events. And you can have that kind of similar engagement that

creates all that content to then be able to further engage with

fans. It's kind of a self feeding cycle. We talked or

eventually a bit about the Nescafe partnership, and you

mentioned Gillette as as well. These are both really unique I

thought I think that the enough cafe, the opportunity to go buy

something in real life and then enter into that that raffle that

opportunity to go play with with professional esports players is

a really cool bridge between real life and online worlds.

Says really, really activation

They're also mentioned that as we get into more real life

events you're looking into do, you're looking to do hyperlocal

tournaments, that the Asian market at large is really

fragmented. So it's going to be different approaches in

different areas, taking each market and isolation is really

important for deciding what to execute on.

And we then talked about that in relationship to platforms. And I

know that you had mentioned that Facebook and YouTube are big

platforms in the region, although in different places,

one is bigger than the other. And then in other regions,

there's other completely different third parties that are

bigger than both of those. So it's, it's really split up in

that way. Whereas I definitely think that we are very used to a

twitch dominated environment in North America, and what you do

and and first, you're also looking towards the future

towards the metaverse fully invested into web three, because

you think that the surveys that you stated were so cool that

there's so much interest in learning with a space, but that

education is going to be a key element in getting any

partnerships any collaborations off the ground. People want to

learn about crypto and planner and but there's still a huge gap

and how to do that from both a b2c and b2b level. So it's gonna

take a little bit for that. However, you mentioned that you

already have a guild that is focused on Plan earned on

blockchain, Blockchain based teams, and that they have been

able to host events, have tournaments and do a lot of the

things that we think of as traditional esports. In games

that are not blockchain based, which is so cool. When it comes

to your journey on getting into gaming and esports. You give

really good advice and saying, read as much as you can put your

mind into it as much as you can. And don't be afraid to get

started without the deepest knowledge base. So you're

passionate about it, get out there. Just put your mind to it

and work a little bit harder, maybe at the beginning to build

yourself up. But you don't need to know everything going in

there's there's definitely an on the job element to any training.

And then we talked a lot about you coming from the market

research world,

taking different business opportunities into different

markets. And I the one question I asked you is kind of what do

you think about when you're creating a new opportunity,

because you'd mentioned that brands have different fits for

what they should be doing. So to figure out what you should be

doing with an esports. First think about the audience, then

try to identify the platforms that audiences on, then think

about the talent that's going to have not only the best content

fit, but also an authentic feeling fit, which is that word

that the esports industry loves to use.

And then and then after that, try to figure out what you're

actually going to do once you have all those steps in place.

And we talked about how the biggest one of the biggest

challenges to that is having centralized data and resources.

So we need more data out there listening who wants to build a

giant data brand or build the Bureau of Labor Statistics board

gaming these call me, I gotta

go both of us.

Um, so Jen, so much talk about so much to think about, the

thing that I love to end with in every episode is what I like to

call the moment of reflection, which is the chance for you to

look back on your career, how you got to where you are. And I

like to ask, what is one thing you would like to tell your

younger self while getting into the gaming industry and being

successful?

I love this question. I love I've loved listening to this on

every episode of your podcast, I always find it so fascinating,

you know, everyone's got very sort of different backgrounds,

based in different locations, as well. So I always find it really

interesting.

For me, I would say it's dates back to sort of my teen years,

really, where, you know, and I alluded to this earlier as well,

and moving into the gaming space, but my dad kind of

instilled into me, you know, really need to work hard to get

where you want to be, and to reap the rewards. So even at a

young age, you know, if I wanted to be able to do something,

myself, rather than just sort of having something handed to me, I

really had to dedicate all my energy time and effort to be

able to, you know, maybe it was working at a bakery when I was

14 If I wanted to go to the movies with my friends, you

know, as simple as that, but like, you know, working hard to

but then be able to reap the rewards and enjoy it. And this

very much has kind of been instilled in me throughout my my

career as well.

And I think it's been crucially important as well, like my

career path has obviously not been an obvious one, you know,

starting off in market research and I never even thought about

working in the gaming industry, you know, it didn't even cross

my mind. And, you know, this, the path that I've taken the

leap of faith that I took to move to Asia, which is then

turned into my home for the last 14 years.

You know, and taking the big leap from a corporate to to

small, medium sized startups as well. So, you know, there's

there's so many different leaps of faith that I've sort of taken

along the route. So I think I would definitely tell myself

younger self don't be afraid to do that. You know that. Really,

there is nothing to lose. You've got nothing to lose, you know,

only to gain

From experience, every role is a learning experience. So, you

know, take out of it, everything that you can soak up all of that

information in the skill sets, you know,

that you can from every single role, which will then better you

for the next role that you're going to take on, as well. And,

you know, it might not be an obvious path at the time, but

somehow, you know, with with hard work, dedication, a little

bit of faith, I think, you know, you can end up landing your

dream job. And essentially, I have to say that that's where I

feel I am today, I still look back and wonder how on earth I

got here, but you know, I'm loving every minute of it. It

was a hard way through COVID Having just started the job

role, but yeah, I'm, uh, I'm seeing a lot of great things

ahead. And yeah, just excited to see where things are really

going to start shaping further in the gaming and esports space.

So yeah, so fun. So what I heard from that was that he up, work

hard and take risks. Yes.

I don't live in regrets. I like it. Thank you. So, so much for

coming on. This has been so much fun for me. I mean, first is

just fascinating. And what you're doing is fascinating,

totally new and fun approach to games. And the focus on finance

is really clear. And I hope that more companies start to do that

more often. Um, where can people find you follow you follow Him

first, learn more about all the things? Absolutely, yes, please

do. So you can find me on LinkedIn as Jenny Hall. So I'm

at first head of strategic partnerships. So that's probably

the easiest way to reach me directly. I don't tend to use my

kind of social media quite so much for the kind of business

side of things I take space seem to spend most of my life on it

to be honest, just from our Creator and team's perspective,

like I'll use it for my benefit.

And then, on top of that, you can follow up first on LinkedIn

as well for all the latest updates on our teams and

talents, new product developments, etc. So yeah, we'd

love for you to follow us and please reach out to me if you

have any questions at all, or you just want to thrash outs and

some thoughts on the gaming and esports space as well. So yeah,

I'm always here.

So fun. For all the listeners out there. Be sure to leave

those five star ratings and reviews. Check out other

holodeck media podcasts, including meta business and

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which I also occasionally use or don't use for personal and

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can catch me live on Wednesday afternoons. Now we have a new

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