In this episode of the Joy at Work Podcast, I sit down with former client Gill Kirk to capture the three timeless lessons she’s taking into the next chapter of her work life. These aren’t generic career tips—they’re deep truths discovered through months of intentional redesign.

Gill shares what it means to lead with deliberate curiosity, how she gently but powerfully challenges outdated work processes, and why carving out quiet space is now non-negotiable in her career. It’s honest, human, and full of insight for anyone considering what really matters in how they work.

Whether you're at a crossroads, already in transition, or just craving more joy in your work life, this conversation offers clarity, warmth, and a bit of gentle provocation.

Learn how you can work with me:

👉 https://www.midlifeunstuck.com/work-with-me

Catch Other Stories of Midlife Career Redesign:

Designing A Work Life That Fits: Silvia's Story - https://www.midlifeunstuck.com/podcast-episodes/career-redesign-midlife-lessons-silvia

When You Stop Editing Yourself, Your Work Changes: Deirdre's Story - https://www.midlifeunstuck.com/podcast-episodes/career-redesign-midlife-lessons-deirdre

From Stuck to Energised: Lara’s Story - https://www.midlifeunstuck.com/podcast-episodes/career-redesign-midlife-lessons-lara

Escaping Boredom and Finding Your Superpowers: Scott’s Story - https://www.midlifeunstuck.com/podcast-episodes/scott-midlife-career-redesign

Hi, I'm Lucia Knight and this is the Joy At Work Podcast.

Today I'm joined by one of my former clients, someone who, like so many of

us, had a moment of, "Wait! Is this what work is supposed to feel like?"

And instead of brushing it off and cracking on, they paused and they chose

to design their work life differently.

I've asked each guest to share the three most important insights they

learned about their future work life that they never ever want to forget.

And these aren't just light reflections.

They're the result of three, six, or 12 months of deep work together, and now

they're in a position to capture those timeless notes to their future self.

For some saying yes to my invitation, took a little bravery and a lot of

what I call powerful vulnerability.

Some had to dig deep because they really value their privacy.

Some said yes because they understood the potential power of having a touch

point to return to every year, but mostly they said yes as an act of

kindness gifted to me and to you.

Let's dive in.

Gill, I'm dying to know what is the very first thing that you want to remember

forever about your future work life?

I have got to take with me deliberate curiosity,

People have always come to me when I have been proffering strategic

communication support, and they'll say, we want to be in the newspapers, or we

want to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

It's like a doctor patient thing, you know, particularly with the internet.

We can turn up now and we go I need this drug, or I need you to give me this.

And actually what the doctor needs to know is, hang on a minute what's the context?

Why do you think this?

And there's a whole load of questions.

And I can't stop myself applying that curiosity cause I can't

really help you if I don't really know everything that's going on.

And that often means the stuff that they don't really want to admit or may

not yet have admitted to themselves.

It takes some vulnerability, it takes honesty, but you're listening really hard.

And I'm very lucky that I'm not frightened of asking questions 'cause I really like

people and hopefully they can feel that.

It means then that you can properly help them and you're setting your

compass in the right direction if you're getting to the truth.

So it's it invaluable for getting results.

What did you call it, deliberate curiosity.

Is that what you called it?

Deliberate curiosity.

So you can't help people unless you delve into

this deliberate curiosity and that you go deeper and further.

Okay?

So that's really important for you to remember in the future.

What's the second thing you want to never forget in your future work life?

So I have done about 25 years pure consulting.

And in five years, very sort of senior level in-house jobs.

And it's really great 'cause when you look back, you can go, oh I

saw this happening when I was on the outside and I experienced it.

And so there's a really good link there which makes sure it's not just

confirmation bias, but there's data and you can see the benefits of both.

And one of the things.

That's so painful, and I'm seeing it more and you will see it all the

time, is processes that once helped and have stopped helping, but they

are security blankets like holding onto the side of the swimming pool.

So what I really treasure and can never, ever be without is a kind of I thought

of it as a knife, but that's a bit harsh, more like a duster for cobwebs.

And it's it's processes or it's habits and it's outmoded things that, people

are doing to keep themselves safe.

There is a need for these things, and this is what safety is really

important with this, which is why a duster is probably better than a knife

because people fear that if they let go of copying everybody into the email.

Or having a meeting with 16 people in it, maybe eight, every time,

then something's going to go wrong.

There's a reason that you can't just throw these things away.

There is a reason.

So it links to the curiosity, of course, because you need to

understand what are the psychological needs that this is fulfilling.

But we know as well, these things are really holding people back

and they're making people unhappy because they cannot progress.

And that's why you end up in.

Corporate reboots rebrandings or away days, or let's look at our values and

come up with an acronym with some words that we all believe in that nobody's ever

going to remember or put into practice, but has just cost us 50,000 pounds.

So it sounds like for you to be able to do great

work, fierce work in our language, you have to have the ability, the

freedom, the autonomy to cobweb dust.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

To help it's a weird Mary Poppins type role.

But it is how do we safely change these practices?

What can we replace them with for you?

So it's that, that, that process of replacement and everybody's got to go

together, otherwise it's not sustainable.

Because processes are about people.

Okay, so this is what do we no longer need?

And when you are able to do that, your work life feels what?

For me, deeply satisfying because people just light up

because they're able to move.

They've let go of the side of the swimming pool, if you like.

So things are getting done.

People are starting to have ideas because they've adapted.

They've evolved.

It's an evolution.

lovely.

It's wonderful.

It's marvolous!

And I can see the way that that links to your deliberate curiosity.

That feels like the next part of it.

And finally, what's the third thing, insight, important thing that

you must remember in your future?

Well, you know, And you can hear I'm quite

busy in how I process things.

I get very excited, very enthusiastic.

I think fun is really important.

None of this works without the quietness.

I do know you and there is a lot going on.

There's fun, there's energy, there's movement.

But you are saying that you want to remember that the

quiet space is important.

So when you do allocate time for it, what difference does that make to you?

It's really beautiful because it is that big picture thing.

So what I do in that space is ask the kind of big questions.

I've got this option, this option, this option.

Which one's going to help us deliver.

Also, then to reflect on the values.

I use my personal values as sort of compass.

What's the right thing?

What's the right thing for this client or this project or for me?

How do I feel about that?

And really listen.

So some of that's journaling actually, or doodling things out, because for

me, the way my brain works, but not the way everybody's brain works, that

helps me find answers that weren't here.

They're more back here, and it's every time, it has helped

me with every major decision.

Everywhere I've gone in, all the things that I do.

Finally, what does Joy at work look like,

feel like, smell like for Gill?

Oh, Oh, that's a great question.

You can see it on my face, it's really here because for me, it is people having

that eureka, that insight moment because it's something that you've said, you've

suggested you've helped them get there.

So I'm not interested in telling people how to do it.

It's about.

People through working with me getting there for themselves.

I don't have the answers.

They have the answers, but helping them do that and that lifting up,

so it's just, it's light, it's bright, it's open, it's generous.

It's fun and it's full of and it sparks a whole lot of stuff

going off into the future.

So it's not, it's never a closed system as well.

It's generative in that sense.

Gill and I work together one-to-one in addition

to her going through the six week at home work life redesign

program called The Fierce Emporium.

Check Out episode nodes where you can get links to all three programs I offer so

you can choose the right one for you,.

So that you can find the joy at work that you deserve.