Kids and dogs living together? In this episode of The Yappy Hour powered by Yappily, Nathan Dunleavy is joined by Debby Lucken, dog trainer, behaviourist, author, and founder of Kids Around Dogs (KAD).

We talk about dog body language and stress signals, consent and boundaries, active supervision, preventing problems before they start, and what to do if your child is afraid of dogs, or if your dog feels unsure around children.

Whether you’re a dog parent/guardian, a parent, a teacher, or a pet professional, this conversation is packed with practical, welfare-led guidance for safer, calmer family life.

What you’ll learn:

✅ Subtle signs your dog is uncomfortable (yawning, lip-licking, shaking off)

✅ Why active supervision matters with kids and dogs

✅ How to teach kids consent and respectful interaction

✅ Preventing common issues like toy snatching, jumping up, and rough play

✅ Support for fear of dogs (kids and adults) and rebuilding trust

Find Kids Around Dogs KAD approved professionals on Yappily 👉

Find Debbie / Kids Around Dogs:

1. Website: kidsarounddogs.co.uk

Find Yappily / The Yappy Hour:

1. Follow/subscribe for more dog behaviour, welfare, and real-life training conversations
2. If this episode helped, leave a review and share with a parent or dog guardian

Welcome to the Yappy Hour, powered by

Yappily, the podcast for dog lovers

2

who want to better understand and

connect with their canine companions.

3

I'm your host, Nathan Dunleavy,

and today we're diving into a

4

topic that affects so many homes.

5

Yet often doesn't get talked

about enough kids and dogs living

6

together safely and happily.

7

Joining me is Debby Lucken,

dog trainer, behaviourist, and

8

founder of Kids Around Dogs.

9

A brilliant program

that supports families.

10

Professionals and even schools in

helping children and dogs build

11

positive, respectful relationships.

12

We'll be chatting all about body language

boundaries, dog phobias, playtime

13

rules, and how we as grownups can

set everyone, both human and canine.

14

Up for success, whether you are

a parent, a guardian, a teacher,

15

or a dog lover, this episode is

packed with insight and heart.

16

So grab a cup of tea, settle

in, and let's get started.

17

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Welcome back to The Yappy

18

Hour, powered by Yappily.

19

I'm your host, Nathan Dunleavy, and

I'm so excited to bring you another

20

episode of The Yappy Hour Today.

21

Even more exciting that I've got a

friend and a colleague, Debby Lucken

22

from KAD, also known as Kids Around Dogs.

23

We're gonna have such a great chat

today all about this amazing program

24

and initiative that Debby founded.

25

So, Debby, welcome to the Yappy,

how the Yappy Hour get my words out.

26

How are you doing?

27

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: I'm good.

28

Thank you so much for having me.

29

I am very good.

30

Thank you.

31

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Good.

32

Glad to hear you.

33

Okay, and you're most welcome.

34

Thanks for coming on.

35

So for those who might, who might not

know your work yet, please could you

36

tell us how kids Around Dog came to be?

37

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

So, well, I'm a mom as well as being

38

a trainer and behaviourist and it

actually started because of my daughter.

39

She was bringing her little friends over

when she was a a preschool and school.

40

And I realized just how many kids were

either way too confident around dogs and.

41

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm

42

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

Tried to, to do things that weren't

43

exactly making the dogs very happy.

44

But there were some that were really,

really scared of dogs as well.

45

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: mm.

46

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

to kind of help them both.

47

And very, very rarely you'd find

some kids that actually kind

48

of knew how to be around dogs.

49

They liked them, but not being over

the top, you know, that kind of thing.

50

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

51

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

and so I started looking around for

52

association that would, you know, that

would provide these kind of things

53

that would help doc professionals

or, you know, children, families.

54

in the UK I couldn't find anything.

55

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Why?

56

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: and

so I started thinking I would, you

57

know, maybe I should, and then you

know, years of thinking about it.

58

And then the pandemic happened.

59

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes.

60

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: And, you

know, no better time than that, really

61

with many more families adopting dogs

62

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes.

63

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: you

know, being housebound there were more

64

risks and more problems happening.

65

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

66

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: and so

yes, that was the really the best time to

67

finally make that dream kind of come true.

68

And it's been, you know, touch wood,

been very successful and and I met

69

wonderful people such as yourself,

70

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Yes, yes.

71

Yeah.

72

Lovely.

73

Yeah, I'm happy to be a

KAD approved professional.

74

And you very lovely.

75

Helped me out with an event

that I did in Southampton

76

about, oh, about 18 months ago.

77

And

78

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: I

79

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

I've had the chance to meet you a few

80

times now at some of the conferences.

81

And you are not far from me.

82

You are in sunny Dorsett and I'm in

sunny Southampton, so it's nice that.

83

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

sometimes.

84

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

85

Sunny sometimes that's it.

86

But yeah, you're in a

lovely part of the world.

87

Yes, and I'm proud to be a card

approved professional, and we're gonna

88

be talking more about that as we go

through this episode and about the

89

courses and stuff you do and what, you

know, what the program is all about.

90

And it's funny you should say that

the kids were either really scared

91

or overconfident, and I kind of

come to the conclusion that there's

92

no happy medium with children.

93

They are either really scared or it,

they're too, they're too overconfident.

94

Like you say, they're too much

and they just don't know when to,

95

well, when to not engage and stuff.

96

And like I say, you just don't seem

to get that, that happy medium.

97

So it's a great initiative.

98

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: it?

99

It's

100

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah,

101

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

rare when, when

102

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah,

103

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

I go, yeah.

104

Oh, okay.

105

There is a dog.

106

Brilliant, but I'm also gonna live alone.

107

It it, it must be really hard

though for a child, because those

108

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah.

109

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

are just so

110

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Exactly.

111

Yeah.

112

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

know, yeah.

113

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

114

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

in one way or another,

115

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Yeah, so children have impulses

116

and so obviously like dogs as well.

117

But

118

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: Mm-hmm.

119

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: you

know, a lot of it comes down to education.

120

Again, we're really big on education

on the yappy hour understanding canine

121

body language, which we're talk about.

122

But also the parents as well, because

some children just go running up

123

to dogs and without checking with

the dog's guardian that it's okay.

124

Whereas sometimes you do see or

hear parents say, oh no, you need

125

to ask permission first, and I

think that's really important.

126

Isn't that?

127

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

Absolutely.

128

Yes.

129

And should also, you know, be mindful

of what the guardian says as well.

130

So if the caregiver of the dog

says, no, we need to respect that.

131

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

132

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: be

a reason why they say, some people

133

do justify and say, oh no, my dog

is not very happy with children.

134

Or maybe the dog has

just had an operation.

135

It's not necessarily, you know, there

could be so many things, or maybe

136

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

137

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

in training or whatever.

138

And some people find it difficult

that their children had said not to,

139

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

140

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: a reason.

141

So whatever whatever it may be, or

even if it's not given, we need to

142

respect what that, you know, that

person says and go, right, sorry,

143

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah,

144

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: this one?

145

You know,

146

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah.

147

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: next one.

148

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

That's it.

149

And I, I've, I've have

been hearing a lot more

150

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: more.

151

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: of the

parent of the child say, no, wait to ask.

152

And that is a good thing that

the parents are taking sort of

153

responsibility and ownership of that.

154

So I, I know you said obviously

you've got your own daughter, Molly.

155

So what made you want to focus on

that, that beautiful intersection

156

between dogs and children?

157

Was it your own experiences

with Molly and her friends?

158

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: Well

actually started a bit sooner than that.

159

I dunno if you know this, but when I

was a kid I was already dog obsessed.

160

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Oh, okay.

161

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

But my parents were not.

162

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh, yes.

163

I think I've heard a part of, might

have heard a bit of this story.

164

Yes.

165

Yeah.

166

Go on.

167

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: My

brother as well, you know, while he

168

is an animal lover such he's not, you

know, it was always like, whatever, we

169

get a dog or we don't, I don't care.

170

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

171

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: but

it was a, a don't, so I always dreamt

172

of having my own dog, and then my

dog would be my friend, and I wasn't

173

although I'm not a shy person and,

and kind of never was, I, I didn't

174

have, you know, that many friends.

175

So I could see the dog

being my best friend.

176

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Mm, that's lovely.

177

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

it was just an unfulfilled dream.

178

So I think I kind of stayed with me and

as then an adult and, you know, seeing how

179

my daughter, what a beautiful relationship

she has with our dogs and our cat.

180

I'm thinking how.

181

I really want this for every

child out there that can possibly,

182

you know, have this, this this

bond, this relationship with

183

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

184

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

And I just feel really sad for those

185

children who are scared the dogs and are

missing out on these beautiful animals.

186

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

187

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

worry, and I, and I feel for children

188

as well who might have dogs in their

lives in one way or another, but cannot

189

have that bond with the dog because

they're maybe a bit too exuberant.

190

And the dog is like, I don't like this.

191

And it, and it's difficult.

192

And for them to create that bond because

193

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

194

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

oh my gosh, your kids are here.

195

You

196

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Yeah, yeah,

197

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

that's really, that's what I wanted.

198

Maybe the childhood that

I didn't have in that

199

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

yeah, yeah.

200

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: it.

201

You know what I

202

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

203

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: Yeah.

204

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Oh, that's nice.

205

And it's funny because a lot

of the guests that I've had on

206

had on the app, the Happy Hour.

207

They all say that they've been

obsessed with dogs since we,

208

since they were, were kids.

209

And then I think to myself, God,

I was I a bit of a late bloomer?

210

Was there something wrong with me?

211

Because I wasn't obsessed

with dogs when I was a kid.

212

And like, no, in my, we

didn't have them growing up.

213

We, my parents didn't have

them for various reasons,

214

and my, my grandparents did.

215

But like, I then got my first dog,

like when I was 30 and I moved into

216

a house with my, my now husband.

217

So that's been just over 10

years that I've had dogs.

218

But I, I then became quickly

obsessed like when I got my first dog

219

because now I've got bloody seven.

220

But I just think, oh God, am

I a bit strange that I wasn't

221

obsessed when I was younger?

222

But now, as soon as I hit Farty,

I became, I became obsessed and

223

I, I'm a bit of a late bloomer.

224

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: Yeah.

225

But you're catching up very

quickly with seven all at once.

226

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Yeah, I mean, I'd never have

227

seven again, don't get me wrong.

228

I think sort of two two's enough.

229

But yeah, I mean, yeah,

there's reasons for that.

230

But yeah, so I'm, I'm a bit

of a late bloomer to it or I

231

wasn't obsessed as a child.

232

But anyway.

233

Hey, hey.

234

Moving on to our next section.

235

So what is Kids Around Dogs KAD?

236

Can you give us an overview of

what the KAD program offers and

237

who it's designed for please?

238

Debby?

239

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

So kids around Dogs is an

240

association of professionals not

only dog professionals, so think

241

trainers, of course, behaviourists,

groomers, vet and vet nurses and

242

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Hmm.

243

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: only

for US dog professionals, but also for

244

people who work in the childcare industry.

245

So that could be teachers,

for example, or child services

246

you know, that area as well.

247

And we specialize in working with

families and in schools as well to,

248

kind of help children and dogs to live

happily, to be safe together to understand

249

each other, to respect each other.

250

So they all leisure the whole

thing with kids and dogs.

251

And that's why our courses are they

kind of concentrate on family dogs

252

and, you know, the, the family dogs as

in a dog, in a family with children.

253

And dog as well.

254

In fact, kids Around Dogs

is a founding member of the

255

National School Dog Alliance.

256

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yes.

257

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: we

we concentrate as well on working

258

with neurodivergent children and

259

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm mm

260

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: So

again, on specializing on, on the

261

dogs that are assisting children who

are neurodivergent the fear of dogs.

262

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes.

263

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

fur dog is quite a big thing.

264

In fact, it's kind of started

more with that because it's

265

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Right?

266

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: thing.

267

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

268

Yeah.

269

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

and it was just over five years

270

ago that I created a protocol to

271

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: did?

272

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

fur dogs and kids,

273

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

274

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

it worked amazingly well.

275

So much so the, even children who

are scared of other animals were

276

able to translate what we do with,

with dogs, with other animals well,

277

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Oh, interesting.

278

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: fears.

279

It's brilliant.

280

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah,

281

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

that goes to the cleverness of kids.

282

I don't, I, I wasn't planning

on making that happen.

283

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah,

284

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

again, it worked so well in kids.

285

Then I've adapted the

protocol for the adult

286

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah.

287

That's right.

288

Yes.

289

Love that.

290

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: 'cause

you, you see so many adults going, you

291

know, I lived with this fear my whole

life, or something happened or whatever.

292

And now we are working with them.

293

And these also been proven very

successful and mustn't forget as

294

well that a lot of adults are either

parents or are going to be parents.

295

And

296

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm

297

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

the their fear kinda gets

298

rubbed off onto to the kids.

299

So,

300

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: mm

301

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

uh, helping the adults can also

302

help future generation children.

303

So, really lovely and oral courses and

obviously school talks as well or talks to

304

educational talk to children about dogs,

which is a bit as well what you did at

305

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I did.

306

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: store,

307

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

the pet store.

308

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

you know, educating the public.

309

And again, we normally call them

school talks away, but your talk

310

was in a pet store, for example.

311

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

It was, yeah.

312

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: be Yeah,

313

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

314

You can adapt it, can't you?

315

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

Absolutely.

316

Yeah.

317

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

318

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: So, yes,

so we, we really want to help children

319

and all dogs in different situations of

their lives and different stages as well.

320

And then every month we also get

webinars from various experts in their

321

field to help us with extra things

like say for instance trauma within

322

the families for children, for example.

323

How do we help a child that might have

gone through certain kind of trauma?

324

How do we offer the best

services for these kids?

325

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm

326

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: we

are working with a reactive dogs.

327

You know, there are so many

variation to what we do that

328

knowing as much as possible

really help us to better serve our

329

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

330

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

end of the

331

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

332

So yeah, I mean there's a lot of

strands to the program isn't there?

333

It's not just sort of one thing.

334

You've got these different branches and

335

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: yeah.

336

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: great.

337

I mean, I love that you designed that

protocol and you've extended it to

338

adults and that the children are using

it, other animals, but also that the

339

kids Organi, the CAT organization

is now a global organization.

340

You've got members, professionals

from all over the world, haven't you?

341

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: It

342

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: amazing.

343

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

I, that shocks me still at the

344

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Does it?

345

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

like I said, it

346

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Oh, that's,

347

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

know, when I started I thought,

348

you know, the, I, I kind of, you

know, concentrate in the uk and

349

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah,

350

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: kind

of outside of England was Scotland.

351

I'm like, oh my gosh, we're in

Scotland, you know, can you believe it?

352

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah,

353

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

oh my god.

354

And and now we're in Mexico and the

355

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah.

356

You're, you've got them everywhere.

357

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

And it's like, oh my God, what's

358

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Great.

359

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

But that kind of shows as well that

360

you know, different professionals

do want to guarantee that they

361

can offer the best services to

362

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm

363

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: and their

364

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: mm

365

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

wherever they are.

366

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

367

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

really, yeah, it's been lovely

368

to see to see appreciated in

369

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

no, it's obviously great that the

370

message is getting out there and it's

reaching other professionals worldwide.

371

And yeah, I've started to see a bit of

an influx in people inquiring as well.

372

So another feature you've got

on your website, Debby, is, is a

373

list of approved professionals.

374

Now for whatever reason, I, I am an

approved professional, but I'm, I'm

375

not actively working as one because

I've just got other, other priorities

376

that I'm doing at the moment.

377

But over the last few months, I've seen

an influx of inquiries come through

378

from the website where people have

found me on your website as listed.

379

And they've, they wouldn't need help

with their, and a lot of it's been with

380

children that have had fear with dogs.

381

So

382

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: Yeah.

383

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

another good feature on your

384

website that people are using.

385

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: yeah.

386

You know, and I think as well, the,

we must have forget the kids around.

387

Dogs actually started

four and a half years ago.

388

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm-hmm.

389

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: And while

you'd still try, you know, with marketing

390

and you know, you use social media and

stuff like this, it does take some time

391

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: It does.

392

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

public to be more aware.

393

But

394

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Hmm?

395

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: as you,

as you know, we do crafts every year.

396

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes.

397

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

This, this year was probably the one

398

where people really knew us the most.

399

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh,

400

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: They

401

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: okay.

402

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: sense

of, oh, I've heard about you guys.

403

I was like, oh my God.

404

That's, that's amazing.

405

And it's

406

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Hmm.

407

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: those

things that does take a little bit of

408

time to to become known by the public,

I think more by professionals is, is

409

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

410

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: a while

and I think it's kind of normal as well.

411

You know, you talk to your colleague

and go, have you heard that?

412

It's the general public that we obviously

want to know the most about us so

413

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm-hmm.

414

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

obviously get more clients and

415

help more children and going to

416

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

417

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: and such.

418

And definitely it has, I I've seen

an an increase on, on, as been

419

known by the general public in

event, such as, like I said, craft

420

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

421

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

famous one.

422

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

423

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: but

also it is really thanks to you guys

424

as well, all the cpro profession.

425

I mean, look at you, Nathan,

how much you do and you're

426

doing the pop 'cause as well.

427

There is a, you know, it's a

lot to do with you coming out

428

and go, you, this is what I do.

429

This is where I am, and you

430

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

431

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

your, your own business and

432

your own association as well.

433

It, it does it really does amount.

434

It

435

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

436

Yeah.

437

I mean, I actively promote it anyway.

438

That, and that I am, and I love, love

you obviously in all that you do.

439

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

thank you.

440

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

And like you said about that event,

441

I did do it at a pet shop, even

though they're normally school talks,

442

they, it can be adapted because it

really is about education, isn't it?

443

Education, education, education.

444

Just getting those people and,

and you know, getting them

445

obviously made aware of it all.

446

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: So

447

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

so that moves us on to then, why

448

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: why

449

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: do you

think this topic is maybe overlooked,

450

even though so many households

include both dogs and children?

451

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

you know there is always, there is,

452

there are so many different, kinda

ways of looking at this either.

453

A lot of people think, oh,

dogs are are awesome, dogs are

454

okay, dogs are are resilient.

455

Dogs can endure anything.

456

And a lot of families

don't even train the dog.

457

Not even like in puppy classes or anything

and just go, oh yeah, dogs are right.

458

You know, they kind of have

that maybe the Disney dog idea

459

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

know even.

460

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

go, oh yeah, it'd be fine.

461

Yeah.

462

And they regret their choices after

a bit when they turn teenagers

463

go, my god, wait a minute, dog.

464

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

465

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: so, you

know, there is a little bit that problem

466

that the idea the dogs will just be okay.

467

Because they love humans and

they, you know, they are that

468

unconditional love There is the idea.

469

So, and I think that while a lot of it

is of course is true, dogs are awesome.

470

But we mustn't forget that they're

still animals and they're still

471

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah,

472

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: into a

families that have all these technologies

473

they don't know anything about.

474

And all those things that make a lot of

noises, especially when you have kids.

475

And and we are all busy, you

know, family even when you don't

476

have children, you're super busy.

477

But when

478

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah,

479

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

more 'cause you

480

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah.

481

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

them everywhere.

482

And there is this activity, the activity.

483

So there is a lot going on.

484

There is a lot of stuff around

the house, toys, extra clothes,

485

you know, extra everything.

486

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

487

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

effectively for a dog that comes

488

into a household with kids, it's like

doubles, you know, triple the work

489

then a dog that, that, that doesn't.

490

And I think the family cannot, takes.

491

for granted

492

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

you are right.

493

You're so right.

494

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: Yeah.

495

so I think that's, that's a bit

the why it might be underlooked.

496

And then there is also another

thing that I notices more and more

497

how some people go, my I'm okay.

498

I don't have to like kind of get my dog

used to kids 'cause I don't have children.

499

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh,

500

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

that's fair enough.

501

You can, it's

502

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah.

503

Yeah.

504

I don't have, I don't have children, but

505

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

But guess what?

506

There are children out there,

507

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

there are,

508

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: kids.

509

If you go outside, chances

are you're gonna see a kid.

510

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

well, I've got nephews and the dogs

511

actually are all good, are good with the

nephew, the younger one particularly.

512

But yeah, it's a bit naive

in it to think like that,

513

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

Well, yeah, because for instance,

514

I have one child, and now you

probably know she's a teenager

515

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes.

516

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

little, little, but when we go out.

517

There are so many kids out there and still

a lot of children, especially when they

518

see my gold retriever, they go, oh, doggy.

519

And they want to come and say hi to her.

520

And obviously she's like, bring

it, you know, she loves kids.

521

But what if she didn't or

what if she wasn't prepared?

522

You know, things like this.

523

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

What are the most common concerns

524

that parents come to you or your

KAD approved professionals with?

525

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

So I think Bueno obviously is the

526

fear dogs that is, probably because

527

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

528

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

unique in that respect.

529

You know, our protocol is is dedicated

to the kids and, and also there is a, the

530

one that is a different one for the adult.

531

So it's quite a niche, if you like.

532

So there

533

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

534

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

there is definitely that, the other

535

thing is definitely like when they

they have some mouthing going on

536

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah,

537

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: they

might know that the, the parents might

538

think, oh, the dog is biting the child.

539

You know, you might have heard

that expression, but actually

540

it's the puppy stage of mouthing

and adolescents and all that.

541

So I think that is quite a big scary

thing for, for a lot of people when we

542

can actually manage it quite well and

then teach the dog and teach the kids as

543

well and the rest of the family for the

dog to use his mouth in a different way

544

rather than, you know, eating us alive.

545

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

yeah, yeah.

546

Little land sharks.

547

Yeah.

548

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

yeah, yeah.

549

They are.

550

They are.

551

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

552

So that's the main thing then

really is the, is the fear

553

of them as really as well.

554

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

the biggest thing is definitely

555

the, I would say is the fear dogs.

556

Again, I think it's because

we are quite unique on that,

557

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

558

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

And, and recently as well, you know,

559

working with neurodivergent kids,

560

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah.

561

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

a big Yeah.

562

Quite a big thing.

563

Yeah.

564

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Does

it tend to be because a dog has bitten

565

a child or they've had a bad experience?

566

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

You know, actually when I was, I was

567

creating the protocol and the so I

was putting it together, I expected

568

that to be, the reason I always

expected it's got to be a bite that

569

creates

570

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Hmm.

571

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: a fear.

572

But the more I looked into it, and even

now, you know, years later that I've,

573

you know, kind of, come across more

and more families, their reason is in

574

fact the biggest reason is because,

the dogs might have chased a child

575

who is either on a bicycle or scooter.

576

That is actually their biggest

reason why kids develop the fear.

577

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Hmm.

578

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

it is a bit sad, isn't it?

579

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

580

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: as

trainers, as well as professionals,

581

so many times we tell our clients,

you know, make sure that, you

582

know, let your dog off the lead,

especially if he chases bicycles.

583

Make sure he has a good recall

before you let them off the lead.

584

You know, that kind of thing.

585

So the actual biggest reason why kids are

scared, the dog could be avoided with,

586

you know, with good training there and

587

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

588

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

effectively.

589

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

definitely.

590

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: Yeah.

591

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Brilliant, thank you.

592

Let's move on to our next section,

which is all about reading the room

593

and dog body language for families.

594

So obviously we've spoken and touched

briefly on canine body language and

595

it's so important that we understand

that and children understand it.

596

So, what are some signs that

parents and children might miss

597

when a dog is uncomfortable?

598

Debby.

599

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: I think

the biggest one are the stress signals.

600

So when a tell, when a dog tells you,

601

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Hmm.

602

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

like this, but uses signals that are

603

not maybe as obvious or as known.

604

For instance, if you see

a dog that moves away, I.

605

There is a more understanding to

go, yeah, that dog doesn't like

606

it, so it goes away from it.

607

And

608

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

609

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

Makes sense, if you

610

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah,

611

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: But

612

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah,

613

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: those,

those stress signals, so called calming

614

signals such as yawning, for example.

615

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah,

616

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

Shaking off as well lip licking.

617

Those are all signals that dogs use to

tell us, look, this is too much, mate.

618

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah,

619

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

Calm it down a notch.

620

You know?

621

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah.

622

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: For

instance, my p when things are too

623

much, she's got the lip licking that

624

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Oh, right.

625

Okay.

626

Yeah.

627

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

When instead my go retriever,

628

she scratches when is she needs

a second to think about stuff.

629

So she scratches herself.

630

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

631

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

that could be, maybe the

632

kids are being too loud.

633

When we had the trampoline for a while,

for instance, so the trampoline was

634

quite stressful for her at some point.

635

So I'm like, all

636

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Oh, okay.

637

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

let's, because she couldn't

638

understand it, let that,

639

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

640

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: Oh,

641

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

the noise,

642

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

and you're jumping.

643

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

the noise was probably a lot louder.

644

Yeah.

645

'cause they hear better.

646

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: it's

647

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

648

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

you know, a whole thing of, of not

649

understanding what the heck is going on in

650

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

651

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

So, but yeah, so, those, those

652

signals are the ones that I are

the ones that dogs really go to

653

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

654

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

very, very often but are the most

655

difficult for people to, to know about

656

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

657

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: recognize

658

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

659

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

stress signals.

660

Yeah.

661

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

662

And obviously before I became a dog

walker or dog trainer, I didn't know those

663

signals, what, that's what they meant.

664

And obviously we don't

know what we don't know.

665

And I think that's where it all

comes back down to education again

666

and sort of raising awareness.

667

Because like I say, if a dog was

yawning or lip lick, and I didn't know

668

that was a stress or carbon signal.

669

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: yeah.

670

Yeah.

671

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: So it

is important that we, you know, we make

672

people aware of these things, these signs.

673

How can we help children and adults

understand that not all interactions

674

are welcome even with family dogs?

675

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: Yeah.

676

You know, actually the, the biggest

problem is often with family dogs.

677

Those are the ones where

more injuries have happened.

678

Dog related injuries have happened, and

that's probably 'cause we take a bit,

679

maybe too many liberties with our dogs.

680

We go, oh,

681

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

I've, yeah.

682

Great.

683

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: are made.

684

You know?

685

So I think again, it's what you

said before about awareness.

686

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

687

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: Let

remind people that even if it is your

688

dog, even if you know, you feed him

all the time and you, you give him

689

all the love in the world sometimes

that dog might just be in a bad mood,

690

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah,

691

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

not be well, you know, sometimes

692

because they're so good at hiding,

693

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

they are.

694

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

injuries that

695

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

They are.

696

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

it's just, even

697

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I.

698

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

an ear infection is so difficult to

699

see or to know that they have it.

700

But that can be painful.

701

That can be annoying, and that

can make the dog go, I can't

702

tolerate anything and just.

703

You know, send them in a mood.

704

So while a lot of people will say,

oh, don't, humanize the dog and

705

everything, but actually I think

that is helpful to relate to the

706

dogs because I dunno about you.

707

But while, you know, we normally, when

we see each other, we see each other

708

with a smile and everything is fine.

709

But life doesn't work like that does it?

710

Life does not work like that.

711

And some days you wake up

and you go, oh my gosh,

712

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

713

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

even wanna get out of bed, you know?

714

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Especially if it's winter.

715

I'm not so bad now.

716

Now we're going into spring, but God,

717

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

Sometimes it's, it is hard, isn't it?

718

You

719

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah,

720

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

or maybe you have a headache

721

and you can't see a headache.

722

You know, it is not like,

dunno, you're bleeding.

723

It just, it is there and you're, you

kind of just going through life with that

724

headache going, oh my gosh, it's, I need

to go and get paracetam or something.

725

you haven't got access to, so in at that

moment you might be a bit in a bad mood,

726

you might be tired, you, you're frustrated

'cause this headache is not lifted,

727

whatever it is or just happened that winds

you up, whatever it is at that moment

728

in time, you are not your usual sunny

729

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah,

730

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: maybe

something happens, someone makes a

731

comment or says something that just

annoys you go, oh, just leave me alone.

732

you react in a way that they

go, what's wrong with that?

733

You know,

734

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

735

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

in a mood, you know?

736

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

737

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

and dogs are the same.

738

Dogs

739

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah,

740

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: the same.

741

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah.

742

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: yeah, I

743

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: And

744

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

to be very mindful of that.

745

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

yeah, we do.

746

And like you said, they're

very good at hiding pain.

747

And

748

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: yeah,

749

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

with us, if we've got a tooth fake

750

or a headache, our, our friends

or our partner gonna know about.

751

And it's the same with dogs.

752

Like people are like, oh, why

are they, why are they barking?

753

Or why are they doing

this or I doing that?

754

It's normally because a lot of

the time it's underlying pain and

755

you know, it's not been disclosed.

756

And I know what I was when I lost my

train of thought earlier, and it's,

757

it's made, it's come back to it, is

that you mentioned, you know, they are

758

animals and animals are unpredictable.

759

So you, you have to bear that in mind.

760

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

And in a way, you know, in a way

761

it's, again, that's why I love

working with kids too, because.

762

Kids are the same in, if anything, I think

the kids are more unpredictable than dogs.

763

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

764

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

dogs seem to have a bit more respect

765

and they go, you know what, I'm

gonna yawn So you know that things

766

are, you know, not now, you know,

767

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah,

768

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

Kids are not gonna, yawn

769

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

no, they don't give you those.

770

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: it.

771

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

They don't give you those warnings.

772

They go straight in through it.

773

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: at

774

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: And

they're obviously not robots, are they?

775

You know, they're sentinel beings, so,

776

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: Yeah.

777

And they shouldn't be.

778

Yeah.

779

Yeah, yeah,

780

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

it's important to remember that.

781

Debby, Debby what role does consent

play in day-to-day interactions

782

between dogs and children?

783

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: You know,

consent is, I think especially these days,

784

we are much more aware of it, not only

between, you know, kids and dogs, but.

785

Amongst us humans as well.

786

Even children at school get

taught about consent and like, you

787

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Oh, they do.

788

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

go and yes,

789

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: good.

790

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: they

need to understand the difference

791

between what is appropriate that

is done to them and what isn't.

792

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Right?

793

I.

794

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

you know, it's, it's so sad.

795

It's such a dark thing to think

about, but unfortunately it happens.

796

So a lot of children might not know that

what someone is doing to them is wrong.

797

And they think that everyone.

798

Goes through certain events, but

799

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Hmm.

800

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: they're

not, and they are inappropriate and stuff.

801

So in schools, they are teaching them,

802

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

that's good to know.

803

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

from little age as well.

804

So it's quite, it's great that they do

at the same time, thinking, my gosh,

805

the fact that they need to know is

806

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Although, I know,

807

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: you

808

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

I know what you mean.

809

Yeah.

810

That is

811

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: can't

even, but you know, in a way, because

812

they are taught in schools as well, it

kind of helps with our job to be fair.

813

And and the fact that we, we are

teaching and we need to teach children

814

that you can't just go and hug a dog

without give permission effectively.

815

You can't just go and and start coming.

816

For example, even grooming

the dog without permission.

817

Like when we do some grooming in the

house, I show the brush to my dog and see

818

what she does, what they do, and I go.

819

Wanna, you need it, mate, but want it?

820

you could look better than you do now.

821

So I still show her the brush so she

knows, and then she goes, yeah, I'll

822

come over now and we'll do some brushing.

823

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

824

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

moves away, that's it.

825

She stopped.

826

And things like this really do help

because then the next time that I need

827

to brush her or, or you know, that I, I

want something from her, she'll trust me.

828

She goes, if I don't want it, she's

not gonna chase me around the house.

829

You know, try to hug me,

try to brush me or whatever.

830

And that is the same, that

is the same with kids.

831

How many times do I want

to hug from my daughter?

832

And like I said, she's a teenager now.

833

I wanna hug for my daughter.

834

And the hug is more for me than it is for

835

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

836

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

And I, she was little, it was like a

837

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

There's all, all the time on it.

838

Yeah.

839

Now it's not cool,

840

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: now I

841

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: but

842

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

have to pay her to get.

843

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah.

844

But then when she gets older, you are,

it'll be fine again because I, you

845

know, you love hugging your mum when

846

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: I know.

847

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

you're older.

848

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: But

still, you know, it, it, that goes

849

back to the fact that now I need

to, you know, go, can I have a hug?

850

And if she says, no, I have to go.

851

Okay,

852

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh,

853

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

Like, like with a pathetic face.

854

And she goes, mom,

855

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

oh, bless.

856

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: Blah.

857

So if, but I, that is also part of of

teaching her that, you know, she can

858

say no, and it has to be respected.

859

And that's the same thing that we, we

teach kids in schools or, you know, at

860

home, even the little ones, you know,

you don't want to be hugged all the time.

861

Dogs don't want to either.

862

You don't want your hair to

be brushed all the time, and

863

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

864

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

don't, they don't want it.

865

You know, things like this that

they can relate to as well.

866

But that is important to know

because effectively forcing ourselves

867

into a dog could mean that the dog

goes, really, I do not like this.

868

And if they will try to use all

the signals and like, you know,

869

the lip leaking the urine and so

on to tell us, do not like this.

870

But if nothing works, they might have

to escalate to, to the worst possible,

871

you know, point that could be a bite.

872

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah

873

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

we don't want that to happen.

874

Of course.

875

Not only because, you know,

the child would get hurt.

876

We could get hurt, but that also

means that the dog was so stressed

877

that he had to get to that point,

878

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

that's right.

879

That's the shame.

880

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: too.

881

So,

882

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah,

883

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: You know?

884

Yeah,

885

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

that's a real shame, isn't it?

886

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: Yeah.

887

It really

888

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

They get to that point.

889

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: Yeah.

890

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

brilliant.

891

Okay.

892

As you were talking about, I was just

thinking about when I was doing a

893

lot more in person training, I was

thinking about the little sessions

894

that I did, did do with children.

895

And it wasn't with dogs, it was like

at their house and I was doing, like,

896

I had like a group of three boys, like

from different ages then two sisters.

897

And I was doing, 'cause

you've got all these amazing

898

resources on your website for

899

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

thank you.

900

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

professionals, all the coloring in and

901

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: yeah.

902

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: you

take the stuffies and then you teach

903

'em where they're able to touch 'em.

904

And it just, it just brought back some

really nice memories I was doing these

905

sessions with, with the children.

906

Just, you know, teaching them how they

should interact with look and that.

907

So That's good.

908

I'll have to get in, I'll have to

get involved with those again soon.

909

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: Yeah.

910

'cause you were great at it as

well, and I think you had fun as

911

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Yeah, I did have fun.

912

It was great because like I say, like

you often do work with the, with the

913

dog and the adult or the, you know, the

guardian, but the children are sometimes

914

involved with the train, but where you've

got a, a session that's just focused

915

towards the children, they're more

engaged and you are doing games with

916

them and you are getting them involved

and yeah, it was, it was good fun.

917

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: Oh.

918

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

So moving on then to our next

919

section, we're gonna be talking about

prevention over correction setting

920

the dogs and kids up for success.

921

What are some practical things

families can put in place to

922

avoid issues before they start?

923

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: So

my first thing, I, I think you know

924

this, I'm really big on supervision.

925

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes.

926

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

and when I say supervision

927

is active supervision, that

928

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

929

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

you are not on your phone, you

930

are not reading a book, you're

not chatting with your friends.

931

Well, you are literally.

932

Body and soul.

933

I always say body and soul there with

the kids and the dogs at any interaction.

934

So for instance, cooking, that's if you're

cooking, you are not actively supervising

935

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

936

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

literally just that.

937

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

938

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

and so that's a very, very

939

first thing, really important.

940

And then obviously we know that.

941

difficult to have your eyes everywhere.

942

So having playpens there, gates,

any kind of dividers as such?

943

It's brilliant.

944

I'm not overly keen on crates, simply

because dog doesn't have a way out

945

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm-hmm.

946

Mm-hmm.

947

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

especially if it's locked, but

948

sometimes even when it's not locked

the, the child might get to the the

949

door of the crate effectively, and

then the dog is just stuck in there.

950

And so many times as well, we see,

you know, children getting also

951

into the, the crate with the dog.

952

So, that's why I'm not you

know, I'm never a fond on those.

953

I like to be able to give the dog a choice

954

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

955

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

whenever possible.

956

So any dividers as such though, is

really, really helpful because as

957

parents or guardians, you can't, you

just can't have your eyes everywhere.

958

That's impossible.

959

So in that respect, then you know

that even if you are doing something

960

else the kids and the dogs cannot.

961

Interact without you there.

962

oh my gosh, I forgot what

the original question was.

963

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Oh, no, it's fine.

964

That's fine there.

965

We yeah, so you've already saying

like, what are the practical things

966

that families can put in place to

avoid issues before they start?

967

So obviously active supervision

and the playpens and

968

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: the

other thing I, I, I really like to

969

say as well is to involve the children

970

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Hmm.

971

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: training

and activities with, with the dogs.

972

And this is something I think we,

we talked about this before, you

973

and me, how in classes or whatever

the parents will come and go, oh,

974

no, the, the kids are not here.

975

Oh, why not?

976

You know?

977

Oh.

978

be too destructive or they're

being a bit difficult around the

979

dogs, then bring them, there is

980

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah,

981

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

reason actually

982

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah.

983

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: to

for them to be here because then they

984

can learn what to do around the dogs,

985

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

986

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

can, can they do, what

987

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Get 'em involved.

988

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: So there

is so much, the kids are actually better

989

than adult and, and they actually listen

more than So, yeah, get the kids involved,

990

get them to help with training, get them

to help even with little chores around

991

the house, dog related, for instance,

changing their water in the bowl fluffing

992

in the beds, you know, that kind of thing.

993

All sorts of things can, can really

be, the children can really be involved

994

with even the little ones can do.

995

Easy things.

996

And if you are worried about, you

know, the child wanting to be too

997

much involved in the kids, in the in

the training or activities with the

998

dogs, then you can give them something

else that is still dog related.

999

For instance, they could prepare

a Westport toy or poisoner toys

00:36:26,585 --> 00:36:28,335

like to fill up with stuff.

00:36:28,663 --> 00:36:28,883

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes.

00:36:29,325 --> 00:36:31,575

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

they could they could color in one of

00:36:31,575 --> 00:36:34,085

our body language coloring in pages.

00:36:34,235 --> 00:36:38,345

They could also draw the menu of

the dog for that week, and they're

00:36:38,345 --> 00:36:40,865

gonna have chicken, they can draw

chicken and that kind of thing.

00:36:41,185 --> 00:36:45,265

Really you can get little ones kind

of, you know, stuck in and, and

00:36:45,505 --> 00:36:47,635

help out in different ways as well.

00:36:48,093 --> 00:36:48,383

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

00:36:49,240 --> 00:36:51,730

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: And

goes well with what your child likes.

00:36:51,963 --> 00:36:52,383

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm-hmm.

00:36:52,540 --> 00:36:55,030

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: they,

if your child is not very creative,

00:36:55,030 --> 00:36:59,350

maybe doing some drawing is something

that they might not enjoy, but maybe

00:36:59,350 --> 00:37:00,730

they'll do something else instead.

00:37:00,730 --> 00:37:05,590

They could be more into the chores,

things of of you know, the part of

00:37:05,590 --> 00:37:08,620

tidying up after the dogs, let's

put the toys away, you know, that

00:37:08,673 --> 00:37:09,183

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:11,000

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

I must say my daughter was never

00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:12,440

into, let's put the toys away.

00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:14,750

She was more into the

creative side of things, and

00:37:14,773 --> 00:37:15,373

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Why?

00:37:15,410 --> 00:37:16,430

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

I'll tidy up then.

00:37:17,510 --> 00:37:17,840

But she

00:37:18,013 --> 00:37:18,403

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

00:37:18,740 --> 00:37:18,920

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: you know?

00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:20,150

She still helped a lot.

00:37:20,150 --> 00:37:20,510

So,

00:37:20,563 --> 00:37:21,013

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah,

00:37:21,890 --> 00:37:23,840

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: we,

I, I think, I think, yeah, a lot of

00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:28,760

the time we underestimate just how

much kids can do and we should, yeah,

00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:30,610

we should get them more involved in,

00:37:30,723 --> 00:37:31,143

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah.

00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:32,080

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

and training.

00:37:32,140 --> 00:37:32,740

Absolutely.

00:37:32,973 --> 00:37:33,183

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: them.

00:37:33,183 --> 00:37:35,883

I know that when Molly was a bit

younger, she was involved in some

00:37:35,883 --> 00:37:36,663

videos and stuff, wasn't she?

00:37:37,135 --> 00:37:37,705

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: much.

00:37:37,705 --> 00:37:38,935

Yeah, absolutely.

00:37:38,935 --> 00:37:39,535

So, so

00:37:39,628 --> 00:37:39,848

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh

00:37:40,345 --> 00:37:41,935

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

but again, you know, as they grow,

00:37:41,935 --> 00:37:44,095

then they have, like, for instance,

she's still involved, but she

00:37:44,095 --> 00:37:45,625

doesn't want to be film anymore.

00:37:45,625 --> 00:37:45,775

She

00:37:45,838 --> 00:37:46,448

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

fair enough.

00:37:46,645 --> 00:37:47,935

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

that's, that's another thing

00:37:47,935 --> 00:37:49,615

I need to respect as well.

00:37:49,953 --> 00:37:50,373

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

00:37:50,425 --> 00:37:51,865

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

why she's not, you don't see it in

00:37:51,865 --> 00:37:53,005

videos anymore because it's like,

00:37:53,073 --> 00:37:53,703

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Right.

00:37:54,020 --> 00:37:54,655

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

fair enough, fair enough.

00:37:55,225 --> 00:37:55,555

Ooh.

00:37:56,635 --> 00:37:56,995

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

00:37:57,017 --> 00:37:58,217

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

miss it sometimes I'm like, Ooh,

00:37:58,247 --> 00:38:02,477

can we take a photo so that I can,

you know, just, just for myself.

00:38:02,507 --> 00:38:05,147

'cause I'm gonna forget what

you look like at this age.

00:38:07,005 --> 00:38:07,355

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Right.

00:38:07,487 --> 00:38:07,907

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: yeah, so

00:38:07,945 --> 00:38:08,235

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Okay.

00:38:08,537 --> 00:38:10,587

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: but

again, you know, when you, they hit the

00:38:10,647 --> 00:38:14,907

teenage time is different activities

that then you'll do with the kids.

00:38:15,237 --> 00:38:18,837

That don't necessarily involve, you know,

the little things you were doing before.

00:38:18,897 --> 00:38:22,317

And training is still very much

one of the things that teenage

00:38:22,317 --> 00:38:23,907

kids really like as well.

00:38:23,937 --> 00:38:24,087

'cause

00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:24,410

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah,

00:38:24,897 --> 00:38:27,207

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: listens

and does stuff and it's pretty cool.

00:38:27,237 --> 00:38:28,837

You can do tricks as well.

00:38:28,837 --> 00:38:30,877

Not just, you know, basic

things you could do.

00:38:30,877 --> 00:38:33,277

Agility, the hoopers there is so much,

00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:34,110

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

there is.

00:38:34,177 --> 00:38:35,827

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

that you can really get involved in.

00:38:36,007 --> 00:38:36,817

Gosh, these days.

00:38:36,817 --> 00:38:41,027

There is a lot, a lot that dogs are,

are learning to do and that we can

00:38:41,027 --> 00:38:43,247

do in our spare time with our dogs.

00:38:43,525 --> 00:38:44,665

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Yeah, definitely.

00:38:44,915 --> 00:38:49,175

How do you handle tricky situations

like Resource Garden jumping up or

00:38:49,175 --> 00:38:51,725

rough play between kids and dogs?

00:38:51,725 --> 00:38:52,145

Debby,

00:38:53,067 --> 00:38:53,247

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: So

00:38:53,350 --> 00:38:53,470

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I.

00:38:53,607 --> 00:38:54,837

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

there are such a, a big

00:38:54,837 --> 00:38:57,267

difference there in, in examples.

00:38:57,477 --> 00:39:03,017

But I would say again on whenever it's

safe, make sure that the kids are involved

00:39:03,017 --> 00:39:05,577

in the activities that a professional.

00:39:06,012 --> 00:39:09,312

We'll give you, I would say whenever

you have a specific problem with your

00:39:09,312 --> 00:39:13,962

dog and stuff, go on our website,

find your local approved professional.

00:39:14,052 --> 00:39:17,862

It's really is literally

says find your local cat pro.

00:39:18,252 --> 00:39:20,952

Simply because they,

every dog is different.

00:39:21,105 --> 00:39:21,525

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: That's

00:39:21,642 --> 00:39:22,692

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

situation is different.

00:39:22,992 --> 00:39:27,912

So while some little tips, as,

as such, can be kind of generally

00:39:27,912 --> 00:39:31,872

helpful, it's still always better

to have someone there that can.

00:39:32,107 --> 00:39:36,557

You understand your particular situation

but definitely jumping up, for instance,

00:39:36,557 --> 00:39:38,957

is quite a, a, a big thing with children.

00:39:39,197 --> 00:39:42,797

A dog, even a little dog, when he

jumps to a child or towards a child

00:39:43,057 --> 00:39:46,537

not only can scare them, but can

make them fall over because they're,

00:39:46,537 --> 00:39:48,367

you know, little for little such.

00:39:48,697 --> 00:39:53,557

So, again, with a lots of positive

training and even scattering some, some

00:39:53,557 --> 00:39:57,937

trees on the floor, for instance, can

distract a dog instead of jumping up,

00:39:58,095 --> 00:39:58,515

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: sad.

00:39:58,537 --> 00:39:59,107

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: ground.

00:39:59,467 --> 00:40:00,097

So yeah.

00:40:00,097 --> 00:40:03,487

But I would recommend, especially if

you have a resource guarding a dog

00:40:03,487 --> 00:40:08,827

that is guarding object or himself

or or the guardian or someone else

00:40:08,827 --> 00:40:13,757

in the family or our location is

best to call a professional in,

00:40:14,005 --> 00:40:14,725

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Definitely.

00:40:15,137 --> 00:40:15,467

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: Yeah.

00:40:15,625 --> 00:40:17,485

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Never, never take, yeah,

00:40:17,485 --> 00:40:18,955

never take it off the dog.

00:40:18,955 --> 00:40:22,075

You, you know, and just, you can

sometimes do swapsies or whatever, but

00:40:22,277 --> 00:40:22,547

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: yeah.

00:40:22,675 --> 00:40:23,125

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: depends.

00:40:23,125 --> 00:40:25,555

But yeah, definitely getting

a, you know, a card approved

00:40:25,555 --> 00:40:26,755

professional to help with that.

00:40:26,785 --> 00:40:29,875

And I think a lot of it as well comes

down to control management, doesn't it?

00:40:29,875 --> 00:40:33,145

It's back to that supervision, but

a lot of control management as well.

00:40:33,797 --> 00:40:35,567

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: But

also what you just said as well, say

00:40:35,567 --> 00:40:39,857

that the dog takes I dunno, one of

the kids toys, which is so common,

00:40:39,895 --> 00:40:40,285

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

00:40:40,697 --> 00:40:42,527

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

very often the child panics and

00:40:42,527 --> 00:40:44,057

goes, oh my gosh, that's my toy.

00:40:44,057 --> 00:40:44,717

You know, a dairy.

00:40:44,717 --> 00:40:45,347

So it starts.

00:40:45,782 --> 00:40:49,622

Chasing the dog in the garden

or whatever and and only can

00:40:49,802 --> 00:40:51,422

turn into a really fun game.

00:40:52,502 --> 00:40:55,532

Not so much fun for mom, but you

know, you can turn into a fun game.

00:40:55,532 --> 00:40:59,042

But what happens as well, the

dog comes to understand that

00:40:59,042 --> 00:41:00,662

this object is quite precious.

00:41:00,662 --> 00:41:01,742

If you're chasing me, you

00:41:01,950 --> 00:41:02,240

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

00:41:02,252 --> 00:41:02,432

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: I'll

00:41:02,515 --> 00:41:03,355

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Make a game.

00:41:03,805 --> 00:41:04,735

Make a game of it.

00:41:04,922 --> 00:41:05,552

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: Yeah.

00:41:05,552 --> 00:41:09,752

You know, or it could, it could think,

oh, this is quite valuable stuff here.

00:41:10,092 --> 00:41:11,382

Maybe I need to hide it.

00:41:11,412 --> 00:41:12,402

Maybe I should eat it.

00:41:12,632 --> 00:41:14,803

Maybe, you know, maybe I'm

never gonna give it back to you.

00:41:15,102 --> 00:41:16,092

You know, that kind of thing.

00:41:16,092 --> 00:41:20,682

So by swapping or paying the dog,

if you like, with some cheese for

00:41:20,682 --> 00:41:25,302

instance, or some hot dogs, I go tell

you what, you gimme back my dinosaur

00:41:25,302 --> 00:41:27,762

and I'll give you some nice cheddar and

00:41:28,270 --> 00:41:28,560

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

00:41:28,602 --> 00:41:29,712

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

worth it, you know?

00:41:30,190 --> 00:41:30,480

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

00:41:30,852 --> 00:41:31,392

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: yeah.

00:41:31,392 --> 00:41:34,322

It's there are obviously different

activities that can be done and

00:41:34,322 --> 00:41:38,542

such, but again, when you have a

particular issue such as resource

00:41:38,547 --> 00:41:41,842

guarding, I would definitely,

definitely have a professional in.

00:41:41,970 --> 00:41:45,970

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah,

when I used to do training and I used

00:41:45,970 --> 00:41:48,520

to speak to the pet and human parents,

00:41:48,732 --> 00:41:49,022

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: Yeah.

00:41:49,150 --> 00:41:51,340

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

they had like the children and

00:41:51,340 --> 00:41:56,110

they had the kids' toys, I say to

make sure they, they put 'em away.

00:41:56,380 --> 00:41:59,260

I said, you shouldn't really

have all the kids' toys around

00:41:59,260 --> 00:42:02,410

because you are, then you wanna be

setting these dogs up for success.

00:42:02,410 --> 00:42:04,000

So don't give them access to it.

00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:07,450

Get them put away, or have them in the

children's room, not where the dog is.

00:42:07,450 --> 00:42:10,780

Because otherwise, if it's

all out, the dog's gonna think

00:42:10,870 --> 00:42:12,250

that they can play with 'em.

00:42:12,250 --> 00:42:12,640

So,

00:42:12,962 --> 00:42:13,232

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: And it is

00:42:13,330 --> 00:42:13,660

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah.

00:42:14,012 --> 00:42:14,612

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: isn't it?

00:42:14,617 --> 00:42:14,757

It

00:42:14,770 --> 00:42:15,190

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

00:42:15,242 --> 00:42:16,352

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

literally like, yeah.

00:42:16,382 --> 00:42:20,582

Very, very tempting for them to

go, this is a funny fluff toy.

00:42:20,702 --> 00:42:21,392

I like this.

00:42:21,392 --> 00:42:21,782

You know?

00:42:22,172 --> 00:42:26,402

And plus it's not like they know, well,

I can never touch this kind of thing.

00:42:26,402 --> 00:42:31,172

It's not, you know, it's not fair to

have that a at the same obviously,

00:42:31,172 --> 00:42:35,492

especially when there is a family with

quite a few children is is tricky to

00:42:35,492 --> 00:42:37,232

have everything, you know, tidy up and

00:42:37,410 --> 00:42:37,630

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

00:42:37,742 --> 00:42:38,162

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: It's

00:42:38,180 --> 00:42:38,470

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

00:42:39,182 --> 00:42:39,542

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: Yeah.

00:42:39,842 --> 00:42:43,772

It does that certainly help to teach

your children to tidy up and even

00:42:43,772 --> 00:42:48,682

from a young age having, maybe it's

just the trucks, like toy toy boxes or

00:42:48,682 --> 00:42:50,332

whatever where they can put their toy.

00:42:50,572 --> 00:42:54,082

Maybe if you have more than one

child, each child could have their

00:42:54,082 --> 00:42:57,452

own toy box so they know, you

know, this is mine, this is where

00:42:57,660 --> 00:42:57,880

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

00:42:58,022 --> 00:42:59,162

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

go, and stuff like this.

00:42:59,522 --> 00:43:04,292

Again, it in a, in an idyllic world,

if you like, we would all be super

00:43:04,292 --> 00:43:06,002

organized and everything goes perfectly

00:43:06,010 --> 00:43:06,300

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

00:43:07,502 --> 00:43:07,742

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: like

00:43:07,850 --> 00:43:08,140

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah,

00:43:08,162 --> 00:43:10,082

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: like on

Pinterest and that, you know, you have

00:43:10,082 --> 00:43:11,852

that fantasy, oh yeah, I'm that mom.

00:43:12,122 --> 00:43:13,472

I was never that mom.

00:43:14,370 --> 00:43:14,660

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah,

00:43:14,902 --> 00:43:16,612

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

But try as much as possible.

00:43:16,612 --> 00:43:17,272

Absolutely.

00:43:17,272 --> 00:43:17,362

Or

00:43:17,470 --> 00:43:17,760

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah.

00:43:17,992 --> 00:43:18,472

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs:

it when you

00:43:18,630 --> 00:43:20,600

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Life

is born if everyone's too perfect.

00:43:20,740 --> 00:43:21,160

Anyway.

00:43:21,532 --> 00:43:22,222

Debby Lucken - Kids Around Dogs: Exactly.

00:43:22,770 --> 00:43:23,760

Dream though, isn't there?