Kasim sits down with Nathan Perdriau, Co-Founder and Head of Paid Media at Blue Sense Digital, to discuss the challenges and implications of moving towards a one-click world in digital advertising. They also talk about the phantom recession no one seems to be talking about and their predictions and advice for the future as agency owners.

Listen to this episode to learn more about:

- The shift towards automation

- Understanding KPIs and financial metrics to improve strategy

- Operational issues faced by businesses

- Actions to avoid during this phantom recession

Connect with Nathan Perdriau and Blue Sense Digital here:

Blue Sense Digital website: https://www.bluesensedigital.com.au/

Nathan on LinkedIn:  

 / nathan-perdriau  

YouTube channel:   

 / @bluesensedigital  

Podcast:   

 / @blues-brothers-podcast  

0:00 Intro

0:32 The Move to a One-Click World and How It’s Changing the Agency Space

3:42 How Google maximizes revenue

10:19 Considerations and KPIs for making strategic decisions

17:50 The viability of a business is dependent upon CAC and the issues faced by businesses

24:09 Looking into the future, considering the current economic climate

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it's terrifying in so many ways because,

you know, we're agency owners and media

2

buyers and one click sounds a whole lot

like hands off, don't touch it, don't

3

pay your agency, bring it in house.

4

When we met, but y'all reminded me of me

and John, you guys are like the new me

5

and John, the younger, Improved versions

sort of, where do we go from here?

6

And I think John's been talking about

it for a year and a half, which is you

7

need to be moving out of ROAS to MIRV.

8

It's Carson with Solutions 8 and

this is your daily Google news.

9

I'm here with a buddy who I've been

trying to get on the channel for, it's

10

at least a year, you've been elusive.

11

it's my buddy Nathan BlueSenseDigital

based out of Australia, which

12

is a real place I found out.

13

public school students

were mighty surprised.

14

I figured it was like, lore and J.

15

R.

16

R.

17

Tolkien, but no, there's a real continent.

18

You and your partner Sebastian

started BlueSenseDigital how long ago?

19

Three, three and a half years ago now.

20

And since then we had this conversation,

when we had met, but y'all reminded

21

me of me and John, the younger.

22

Improved versions.

23

Cause you're doing all the things

that agencies generally don't do.

24

You're doing the deep dives.

25

You're kind of at the vanguard.

26

You're cracking codes

and figuring shit out.

27

And you just launched

your own YouTube channel.

28

So for our subscribers that, cause we

get a lot of, well, I wish you guys

29

would go back to the way things were.

30

this is the place to go.

31

This is going to be, my prediction

would be that BlueSenseDigital's,

32

YouTube channel ends up being

the new solutions eight in terms

33

of some of the more tactical.

34

Like, hey, let's actually

dive deep and figure it out.

35

And that's not to say that you

should stop watching solutions

36

at YouTube channel, by the way,

because we're still bringing fire.

37

but we do a lot of, the day to day.

38

Like, how do you manage Google ads

campaigns on a recurring basis?

39

That's where we found

our bread and butter is.

40

And to be honest with you, it

tends to bring in more clients.

41

the thing that sucked about producing

the content that you produce is.

42

You get a lot of people they're

almost too smart to sell.

43

it's a good problem to have

though, because that's where all

44

of our, really high end clients

came from the content strategy.

45

So I'm excited for you, man.

46

and you've got a podcast too, right?

47

Yeah, we do.

48

It's it's called, the

blues brother podcast.

49

And we just talk about e commerce.

50

That's awesome.

51

Um, so they're friends of solutions.

52

Eight, follow the channel,

check out the podcast.

53

Let's support them.

54

Uh, finally got you on my channel and,

we're going to be talking about quite a

55

bit here, but the thing that caught my

attention when you fired off your talking

56

points is, the move to a one click world.

57

That is the best clickbait

title I've ever heard.

58

it's terrifying in so many ways

because know, we're agency owners

59

and media buyers and one click

sounds a whole lot like hands off.

60

Don't touch it.

61

Don't pay your agency, bring it in house.

62

So tell me more about the one click world

and whether or not agencies survive.

63

Yeah.

64

So if you look at the intent of Google

and Facebook, what is their intent?

65

And that's to maximize revenue and

maximize inventory and the best

66

way that they can possibly do that.

67

Is to build towards a one click

world where any advertiser can hop

68

on the platform, click one button,

launch a campaign, and be spending.

69

But I think it goes a little bit deeper

than that, which is, if it's a one click

70

world, anyone can hop on, create a PMAX

in one click, auto generates images,

71

everything, now you're advertising.

72

Why wouldn't Google even

out CPAs with gross margins?

73

So that they can squeeze every brand

as much as possible, because that's

74

ultimately how Google maximizes Rev.

75

Is that they take as much of your

gross margin as they can, and

76

they leave you with just enough.

77

So that you keep spending on the platform.

78

And so I think it's a, dangerous

position that we're moving towards,

79

particularly with Facebook as well,

rolling out advantage plus, which is

80

essentially a completely automated

version of current campaigns.

81

There's no targeting.

82

You just drop ads in and it just goes,

and you don't really know what it's doing.

83

and performance max is similar.

84

You can pull in backend scripts,

you can pull data, but it really is.

85

Nearly one click, you're dropping in

assets, most of the assets that get

86

served in PMAX are auto generated anyway.

87

It's normally serving DSA,

it's not serving any of the

88

static titles or descriptions

that you're providing it with.

89

And so sort of, where do we go from here?

90

And I think John's been talking about it

for a year, a year and a half, which is

91

you need to be moving out of ROAS to MIRM.

92

and I think that's almost becoming the

standard for most agencies and most

93

people that are looking in platform.

94

And that sort of comes back to the

one click world as well, which is.

95

Google wants to attribute as

much revenue as humanly possible

96

to the platform because they're

incentivized to make you spend more.

97

And so if you think, Oh, my entire

business is reliant on Google.

98

I do 150, 000 in rev a month.

99

And a hundred thousand

of that is from Google.

100

We can't stop spending.

101

In fact, we should probably spend more,

but performance max is just going and

102

retargeting all existing customers.

103

And you do some quick math on the backend

and you find out that you had your

104

Google attributed revenue with Facebook.

105

And it's two X, what your actual PNL is.

106

And so things don't start to line up.

107

Are you using third

party attribution tools?

108

We are, but, triple well.

109

Oh my goodness.

110

All right.

111

Yeah.

112

I've heard really good things

about triple well, John worked

113

with them for a while, early stage.

114

Yeah.

115

there really any sense in trying

to identify the attribution

116

thread at this point?

117

mean, part of me wants

to just say, screw it.

118

Three buckets, top of funnel performance,

middle of funnel performance,

119

bottom of funnel performance.

120

And then we're just

measuring cash in cash out.

121

We're just going more.

122

I'm not even going to attempt to see

on individual transactions where the

123

thread goes, because it's too hard.

124

It's too impossible.

125

correct.

126

John Ivanko, who is the co founder

of FormToro, which is pop up forms

127

on site, collecting zero party data.

128

He has a quote, which is Attribution.

129

Is trying to find a customer

journey in a company journey.

130

And so you'll never end up figuring

out what the customer is doing because

131

you're just looking at a few companies

and how they're attributing the customer.

132

And in reality, if we were to sit

back and say, all right, your average

133

Econ brand or even your average lead

gen brand, how good is attribution

134

in Google and Facebook out of 100%?

135

It's probably like 80, maybe 75, maybe 70.

136

And so how much of a squeeze is

there putting all of your time and

137

focus going from 70 to 80 or from 80

to 90 when there's a hundred other

138

bottlenecks in your business and

that's why you're not actually growing.

139

I think business owners get

really caught up on attribution

140

and it makes sense, right?

141

Because as a business owner, you have

your cash flow and you're going, I

142

want to grow, where do I put it?

143

Do I put it into Google ads?

144

Do I put it into Facebook?

145

Do I put it into my SEO team over here?

146

Who's saying that they're

driving all the revenue?

147

Where should I put the cash?

148

And then everyone's telling

you different numbers.

149

It doesn't all add up.

150

And so you're trying to just quickly grow

the business with a single decision, but

151

you can't because it's all a bit cloudy.

152

How would you un murky the waters for us?

153

So I'm a brand, I have

a tax relevant spend.

154

I have the, paradox of success and I

am I'm doing social and I'm doing paid

155

and I'm doing search and I'm doing organic

and I'm doing a Little outreach and PR

156

and direct and all that just media mix.

157

You're my CMO What decision do we make

now or what do we start looking for?

158

Like what's the next step?

159

I think firstly, you do look at the

attributed numbers with an assumption

160

that they are 60 to 70 percent accurate.

161

and generally speaking, if you

have a good media buyer, you can

162

tell where people are pathwaying.

163

There's the basics, Facebook will

normally over attribute on retargeting

164

if you're doing a lot of Google spend.

165

If you're doing a lot of Facebook

spend, Google will just scoop up brand

166

search and look better than it is.

167

So you need to look one layer deeper

than whatever's being attributed.

168

And then I would be looking

at Top level CAC or NMR, which

169

is just Acquisition Merged.

170

So you're looking at new customer

revenue rather than total revenue.

171

And then you're making tweaks

on a week to week basis with the

172

acquisition strategy and seeing how

that impacts your top line numbers.

173

for example, if you're spending 50 50

on Google and Facebook, And the CMO

174

has a prediction working with the media

buying agency or whatever it might

175

be, that if we spend more on Facebook,

we'll see better returns, increase spend

176

on Facebook for 2 to 3 weeks and just

directly track top line revenue and

177

try to keep other variables constant.

178

It's going to be tough to do keeping

variables constant, especially

179

when you're at a certain scale, but

taking a more holistic view while

180

also having consideration of the

in platform numbers is going Yeah,

181

well, I like what you said, too.

182

It's actually, it's not an answer.

183

It's sequence of tests

that probably never end.

184

We're not going to make a decision

and then drive hard in that direction.

185

We're going to start tweaking things so

we know what our knobs and our levers are.

186

And then we're going to see how

those tweaks impact whatever the

187

relevant KPI is at the moment, right?

188

Be it Mer, NCAC, or however, because

I know everybody's measuring success

189

differently and so should they.

190

It's really easy for me to say LTV is

the only number that matters, because it

191

is, but not in a 90 day period, right?

192

There's no such thing as LTV.

193

So now it's, hyper dependent

upon the business model too.

194

And that's the other thing that I

think that we did a really poor

195

job as educators getting across.

196

there's no template.

197

There can't because your business is,

So unique and then the approach that

198

your business needs to take is so unique.

199

And so even you saying like, Mer

is the only way that we need to

200

measure and correct me here, if

you think that I'm wrong, Nathan,

201

but, if I'm zooming out, Mer is.

202

the golden ratio, but if you're doing

the week over week analysis that

203

you just referenced, can Murray even

be relevant because it doesn't take

204

into consideration things like, lag

indicators, people in the pipeline,

205

it doesn't Murr have to be a longterm.

206

I mean, at least quarter over quarter,

if not year over year analysis.

207

Yeah.

208

what you're saying is that

there's an attribution lag on new

209

customers as they enter the funnel.

210

Yeah.

211

Because if you increase spend really

rapidly, your MER will just drop.

212

Well, you said that way better than I did.

213

So, what are the other KPIs that

you recommend businesses look

214

at as lead indicators for MER?

215

So, if MER can't, I mean, MER is our gold

standard and we know that for a fact, but

216

on a long enough timeline, as I'm in the

thick of it and I'm doing the test that

217

you referenced on a week over week basis,

and I need to make decisions based off of

218

yield of those tests, what is that yield?

219

Like, what are the data

points that you're looking at?

220

It depends if you're rapidly

increasing spend or not, because

221

you could look at MER if you're

not increasing spend week on week.

222

And that's what you said

about keeping variables.

223

Yeah, because then technically that

lag would catch up and then you're

224

just backfilling into the lag.

225

Okay.

226

But I really like looking at CAC these

days over MER and the reason being is that

227

the best brands to work with end up being

CPG brands, so consumable based brands

228

that have repeat purchases and have a

strong LTV, in which case CAC just makes

229

a lot more sense when you can benchmark

towards a 90 day or a 180 day LTV, which

230

they're targeting, and we know that that

cash flow is going to come off the back of

231

acquiring a customer for a specific cost.

232

especially with consumables, the

interesting thing about what I'm seeing

233

there is, first year shooting fish in

a barrel, but then all you need is one

234

other competitor to enter that space.

235

And now people are spending more to

acquire a customer than the customer's

236

worth the first time, the second

time, the third time, and then,

237

you kind of have this race to the

bottom, said this to somebody today,

238

I feel like we're in a traffic

bubble because you used to be

239

able to self liquidate traffic.

240

have very few customers that are self

liquidating, especially in the consumable

241

space because they're all such small

purchases on the front end, generally

242

speaking, with a few exceptions.

243

So then it's like, all right, well,

I'm not going to self liquidate,

244

but I'm going to make money on

the upsell or the order bump.

245

And then it's like, well, the

upsell on the order bump pays

246

for my traffic, but I'm going to

make money on the next purchase.

247

Well, I'm not going to make money

on the next purchase, but my, my

248

LTV is this and my CAC is that.

249

So as long as my LTV outpaces my

CAC, You know, it takes me however

250

long to maintain profitability.

251

So based on the customers that you're

seeing, do you think we're in a bubble?

252

Do you think the traffic costs are viable?

253

Or are we going to see a down

regulation once certain brands realize

254

this just isn't viable anymore?

255

big yes.

256

I tell someone what that used to be.

257

I cost, they're up enormously.

258

And I think that particularly last

year, as well as this year, It's the

259

squeeze that most agencies didn't

expect because COVID was so easy.

260

it would start a brand, launch a

campaign, make money, full stop.

261

And then what also ended up happening

was all of these brands did so well.

262

And there was such explosive

263

22 a little bit, is that everyone

then over inflated their OPEX.

264

Because there were now

a new revenue level.

265

So they went, okay, now we need

to hire a marketing manager.

266

We need to hire this.

267

We need to hire that.

268

And then suddenly their

OPEX grew from nothing.

269

It was just a one person brand.

270

Now they have seven people on

the team and revenues declined

271

by 30 percent in the last year.

272

And so everyone's saying this huge squeeze

and we get clients coming to us all the

273

time where they'll come and we'll go,

okay, so let's lay out your financials.

274

What's your target?

275

And we are, and they'll go, and

you've probably got this before.

276

And they'll go, 10 and they go,

Oh, actually, no, it might be

277

14 and you go, well, good luck.

278

you sell a hundred dollar product.

279

We're not acquiring customers for 8.

280

Like it's just not

happening on any platform.

281

I don't know how you expect

to scale at a 14 mirror.

282

And they're like, Oh, well we have to,

because we have 80, 000 in OPEX per month.

283

You know, why do you have 80,

Oh, because it's just there.

284

It's just on the P& L.

285

The accountant told us

it's there, so it's there.

286

start to find a situation where

a majority of brands now aren't

287

facing really a marketing problem.

288

It's an operational issue.

289

even their contribution margin on orders.

290

So you'll have brands that will

have 30 percent gross margins

291

on non repeat purchase products.

292

80, 000.

293

And you go, how do you expect to have any

allocation towards marketing when you're

294

only making 30 percent gross, right?

295

Because 30 percent gross means that if

you want to operate at 15 percent net as a

296

company, assuming no fixed costs, no OPEX.

297

You'd have to spend 15 percent

on marketing, which is the

298

equivalent to about a 6 MER, a

7 MER, and that's with no OPEX.

299

Right.

300

how does that operationally make sense

unless you're at a huge scale doing

301

really 20, 30, 40 million a year?

302

Yeah, already said this, it's not

accounting for OPEX, but I think what

303

a lot of people don't realize when

they're playing their Excel file games

304

is we're all multi millionaires on

Google Sheets, but it doesn't take

305

into consideration things like returns,

you know, I mean, the econ game.

306

Is one or lost in some instances

in certain industries, just

307

on returns, or the fact that

everybody's offering free shipping.

308

Well, someone pays for that, lot of

these, especially the students that enter

309

the game, I don't think they're taught

properly the way to look at numbers.

310

I like what you said that most of

these problems aren't marketing

311

problems or operations problems.

312

That also kind of lends itself to

the idea that agencies they're

313

not media buyers anymore.

314

They're like business consultants, because

you have to know what you just said.

315

You'd have to know to look

at how to look at a P& L.

316

bet you 90 percent of agency owners don't

know how to look at a P& L properly.

317

So yeah, you'd have to know how to

look at a P& L, how to zero in on

318

where, you know, where's the inflated

number, really start to pick it apart.

319

And then it kind of begs an

interesting philosophical question,

320

which is the viability of a business.

321

is entirely dependent upon your CAC.

322

I'm backing into this too, because I'm

having this thought as you and Eric

323

talking, but right now what everybody

does is they build a business, they

324

build the assembly line, they build

the product, they build the fulfillment

325

team, and then they go and they tell guys

like us, all right, we have to have 6X.

326

We have to have 9x, we have to

have 15x, based off of this.

327

And really what should happen

is, we should go try to sell

328

this shit, and come back and say,

okay, you can afford 4x business.

329

So you gotta go figure out how to

squeeze all of your crap into 4x, and

330

if you can, you'll make some money.

331

And if you can't, then don't do this.

332

But that's not the way that we function.

333

And we can't sell it

that way either, sadly.

334

you're spot on.

335

that's why we particularly, we

started losing, we lost a few clients.

336

We lost two to three clients and every

time we lose a client, man said, sit

337

down for a 30 minute meeting and we

just take complete ownership of why the

338

client left and try to figure out how

we can never have that situation again.

339

Because if you can fix every time

a client leaves, then eventually

340

clients will just never leave because

you've patched every single hole.

341

what we found for three clients in a

row was that even with all the ownership

342

and responsibility that we could take,

it ended up being operational issues.

343

One was, overinflated opex.

344

Their opex was so high from Covid.

345

They hired, so their revenue

went from 300 to 600.

346

They went and increased

their staff from two to 15.

347

Oh, good.

348

post covid drop, no cutting of staff.

349

Staff remained the same.

350

And so their targets got outta control.

351

Just outrageous.

352

And we're like, well,

we, we can't hit this.

353

Another one was a

consumable brand, $60 a OV.

354

So it's a consumable product

gets a repeat purchase rate.

355

wow.

356

Okay.

357

And so you can't sell a

low AOV consumable product.

358

If no one's going to

buy the product again.

359

Well, that also means

no one likes your shit.

360

Correct.

361

it's a fun thing to come and tell

your client, like, Hey, we're selling

362

this and nobody's coming back.

363

So, yeah.

364

And so if you're going to run on like

an LTV based business model where

365

you'd, shift your KPI to, CAC to LTV,

because you know, you're going to be

366

profitable on second, third purchase.

367

Yeah.

368

You need a 2nd, 3rd purchase, and

that is a baseline requirement.

369

And then, we had another client, and this

is really common, you probably have this

370

as well, where it's almost a retailer.

371

They have, they just stock other people's

372

what ends up happening is.

373

We say, okay, we're at a 10, 15,

no, let's start scaling spend.

374

Oh, we can't, we have no cashflow.

375

where's your cashflow?

376

Oh, it's all stuck up in inventory.

377

And then you go, okay, well, let's,

give us an inventory export of all SKUs.

378

And let's have a look here.

379

And then you can start building out Excel

sheets to look at overstock and orders.

380

And you start to go, wait a second.

381

They're overstocked by

2 million in inventory.

382

And this is a 2 million brand.

383

so their revenue is their

inventory being held right now.

384

So as they're generating free

cash flow, it's just straight

385

into inventory and it's gone.

386

And so, once again, it's an operational

issue, not a marketing issue, is if they

387

could tighten up their buying and they

could craft offers around overstocked

388

products and get rid of them, and

even just cut down your SKU count.

389

Most of the time, you can cut 60

percent of your SKUs and you'll be fine.

390

It's Pareto's principle, 80

percent of revenue comes from

391

20 percent of the products.

392

So, there's all those considerations

that marketing agencies will,

393

will lose those three clients.

394

Every marketing agency will lose them.

395

unless you're a strong financial

operator and you understand operations

396

within businesses or specifically e

com or whoever you're working with.

397

Because or else, how do

you retain those clients?

398

Just within the silos of

Google and Facebook ads.

399

This is the funny thing about being

an agency owner is at a certain point,

400

I mean, it used to be, we just ran

the ads and then it was like, well,

401

run the ads and tell me the numbers.

402

And it was like, well, run the ads, tell

the numbers and dig into my operations.

403

had friend He goes, I'm looking

for a marketing agency.

404

Who's willing to run the ads

performance based and pay the ad spend.

405

And I'm like, All right,

dude, that, good for you.

406

he's got a well known brand and everybody

knows who he is, that only goes so far.

407

I'm like, I want that too.

408

A B at a certain point, I start

to wonder why do I need you?

409

And I don't know if you've ever felt

that way, but some of these brands

410

that I've worked with, I'm like, all

right, we did your top of funnel.

411

We did your lead acquisition.

412

We're now helping with your sales

and now we're going to dump into

413

your fulfillment at a certain point,

you're irrelevant to this process.

414

And I should just own your business.

415

And feel that could be the way that

good agencies go is we just start

416

opening up our own businesses and our

own brands because it's not worth the

417

lift of trying to bring these other

people with us, especially given

418

how inept they are at everything.

419

Hmm.

420

thought about acquisitions at Tom is.

421

with a lot of brands now, we're

at the extent where we just

422

run the whole company, right?

423

we're looking at overstock.

424

We're telling them, Hey, these

products are out of stock.

425

You need to change your buying cycles.

426

We're looking at contribution margin.

427

We have their whole P and L in

excels and we're monitoring OPEX.

428

And we're saying, Hey,

OPEX went up last month.

429

What did you do?

430

I went out for a nice dinner.

431

And we're like, Oh, well, don't think

we should count that within our numbers.

432

And I think we should back that out.

433

Right.

434

it is at the point where it's like,

why don't we just, what's left?

435

It's customer support.

436

And.

437

Product design.

438

figure that shit out on Fiverr?

439

Yeah, exactly.

440

Yeah, it's interesting, right?

441

Because, the best agencies

will move to that.

442

And then at that point, do you just

move away from being an agency and

443

just start becoming an incubator

of businesses and brands under you?

444

which actually sounds like a lot of fun.

445

That's maybe my little sad pathetic

dream is I'd love to have an

446

incubator after I made my exit.

447

That was kind of the plan is I'm just

going to go and build businesses.

448

So we'll see.

449

Maybe that's the new agency model.

450

Last words to you.

451

they might be a potential client

that could be an agency owner.

452

when I sold my business, I had 185 clients

and I have 130 now and we're phenomenal.

453

And when I do the analysis of who we've

lost, it's exactly what you're saying.

454

It's topic issues, fulfillment

issues, um, a lot of financial issues.

455

We've had a few clients

declare bankruptcy.

456

And yet, if you look outside,

everything seems to be fine, right?

457

Like all the pundits, all

the, usual suspects in terms

458

of the barometers look okay.

459

So I just think this is such a

strange black box that we're in.

460

Where do you see the next 18 months?

461

Good question.

462

I'll reiterate what you said, which is

that most brands are down year on year.

463

a few brands are up and doing well, I see

over the next 18 months, it's going to be

464

dark, probably for the next 6 to 12, with

all the things that we've talked about,

465

right, is that ad costs are going up.

466

So there's this huge squeeze

on most brands, and we're

467

Ecom focused on the agency.

468

That's why I'm always referencing

Ecom, but a lot of businesses

469

opened in Ecom during COVID.

470

And a lot of people didn't get to go

through tough times to learn all of the

471

core fundamental skills that it takes.

472

To maintain a business.

473

If you start a business during

a bull rally, what happens

474

when you go into the recession?

475

right.

476

And so all of these businesses are now,

everything's tightening up on the P and L.

477

And then all it takes is a few

lines to tighten and suddenly

478

you're negative cash flowing.

479

And you're going, what's going on?

480

And the worst thing you could do at this

moment, and this is going to sound bad,

481

probably coming from us as agency owners.

482

The worst thing you could do is turn

to your agency and just scream at them.

483

Because really the only thing that's

going to fix operational issues with

484

most of these brands is operational

issues is looking internally and

485

figuring out what's going on and then.

486

Ideally, yeah, you might want to look

for an agency that is better aligned

487

with high level business strategy and

is going to look in and consult and help

488

you outside of the accounts, but it's

really understanding numbers, number one.

489

and it sounds so obvious, but I'm sure you

talk to business owners every single day.

490

it would blow people's minds how

many businesses don't know what

491

their gross margin number is.

492

Yeah, I think that's the single

biggest need in the, space of

493

entrepreneurship is financial

services that actually distill the

494

information in a way that's actionable.

495

Here's your dashboard.

496

Green is good.

497

Red is bad.

498

You want it to be up to the right.

499

And if it's not, then we need

to start making decisions.

500

Nobody knows their per service

or per product margins.

501

Do you not know that information?

502

You know what I mean?

503

Like, how do you not know

what you make on what?

504

And, what's interesting too, is every

time I'm on the phone with somebody

505

who we land in this part of the

conversation, they know, they don't know.

506

You know what I mean?

507

It's not like a surprise.

508

They're like, no, no, I know, but on a

long enough timeline, we're making money.

509

So I guess it's okay.

510

And I think that's exactly

what you were speaking to.

511

The rising tide floats all ships.

512

Money was flowing.

513

You didn't need to be

sophisticated to make any money.

514

And so there's a lot of unsophisticated

people in the market and they're

515

getting annihilated right now.

516

And I'm watching them drop

like flies and, it'll taper.

517

And then, you know, what's really

interesting is, the market always

518

overcorrects cause that's just

the way the pendulum swings.

519

This is a lot of fun, man.

520

I really appreciate you hopping on.

521

I'd love to have you back again.

522

where can people find you?

523

We're going to link to your podcast.

524

If somebody wanted to work with

you, how would they reach out?

525

you could reach out through our

website, which is bluesensedigital.

526

com.

527

au or you can find me on LinkedIn.

528

Yeah.

529

We'll drop that in the

description and the show notes.

530

Do you just do agency services

or do you do consulting?

531

we do consulting as well.

532

Yeah.

533

Okay.

534

That's great.

535

Yeah.

536

that's awesome.

537

Nathan super appreciate you man.

538

High five if you're watching

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