Dave Ridill is a hydroponic farmer as well as the owner and head of operations at Clawson Greens, an organization that supplies Teton Valley and surrounding areas with fresh clean greens, locally grown year-round. Join Harry Duran, host of Vertical Farming Podcast, as he and Dave discuss the learning curve of vertical farming, the impact that Covid-19 has had on the industry and the importance of being nimble as an entrepreneur. Dave tells the story of how he chose a career as a vertical farmer over that of a paramedic firefighter and the impact he wishes to make with his AgTech organization.

Special thanks to our Season 1 Sponsor

IGS – https://intelligentgrowthsolutions.com/

Key Takeaways

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• 00:01 – Dave shares his background as a ski patrolman, his origin story as a vertical farmer and the work he’s doing at Clawson Greens
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• 09:55 – Dave speaks to the learning curve of vertical farming, the breakdown of his clientele and how he is assisting his local community
• 
  
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• 16:35 – Dave expounds on the importance of remaining nimble as an entrepreneur in the AgTech space
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• 20:09 – Dave breaks down a typical day in the life as a vertical farmer and the challenges that emerged due to Covid-19
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• 27:32 – Best practices and insights Dave has learned from other hydroponic farms
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• 30:56 – Dave talks about his marketing plans for Clawson Greens
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• 35:49 – What Dave has learned about himself throughout his entrepreneurial journey
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• 38:27 – What is something that Dave has changed his mind about recently
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• 40:22 – Dave speaks to the trends that excite him about the future of vertical farming and where listeners can follow and connect with Dave
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Tweetables:

“You have to understand that it [vertical farming] is a business in that if you want to actually do this you have there has to be this idea that you want to be successful. And, failure was not an option.” (08:17)

“I think that there’s a benefit for small farms like myself and all over the country – whether that’s indoor farming or just small scale farming in a community – is we have the ability to transition in a day or two from restaurants to a direct-to-consumer, to a drive-up.” (17:32)

“Our competition was more of what’s going on in California – the transportation and water shortages and climate change. That’s our competition.” (28:45)

“A lot of people still think their food just comes from the grocery store and they don’t have that connection that there’s actually farmers, there’s actually people who grow this food.” (37:02)

Links Mentioned:

Dave’s LinkedIn

Dave’s Website

Dave’s Facebook

Clawson Green’s Instagram – @clawsongreens

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Mentioned in this episode:

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visit intelligentgrowthsolutions.com. I

had more of a knowledge of shipping containers, and then once I learned that you

could actually grow Out of them. I thought it was really

cool. Welcome to the Vertical Farming Podcast, weekly

conversations with fascinating CEOs, founders, and

agtech visionaries. Join us every week as we dive deep

into the world of vertical farming with your host, Harry

Duran. Vertical Farming Podcast, welcome back, episode

6. If you're new to the show, this is the podcast where we interview

fascinating CEOs and founders of some of the leading vertical farming

companies from around the world. In case you missed last week's episode, I had a

great conversation with John Friedman of Freight Farms. If you

haven't listened to it, it's been getting a lot of buzz. I highly recommend you

check it out, episode 5. This week I have the privilege of speaking with

Dave Riddle. He's the owner and head of operations at Clausen

Greens. It's an organization that supplies Teton Valley and surrounding areas

with fresh, clean greens grown year-round. Dave

has an interesting path to how he became a vertical farmer. In a

previous life, Dave has been a paramedic firefighter and a ski

patrolman. We talk about the learning curve of vertical farming,

the breakdown of his clientele, and how he's assisting his local community.

I really love this conversation because Dave breaks down a typical day in the life

of a vertical farmer and how he's had to be nimble in

adjusting post-COVID-19. If you enjoyed this episode or

past episodes, I'd love it for you to leave a rating and review at

ratethispodcast.com/vfp. There

you'll find easy instructions for how to support the show.

with the review, which will go a long way to letting other people know about

the podcast and see that it's adding value. So let's jump into this conversation

with Dave. So Dave Radil, thank you for joining us

on the Vertical Farming Podcast. Thanks for having me. So we had a nice

pre-chat about all things vertical farming, how you got

into it. And I think what's been helpful for me as

I've been recording some of the episodes in this series is just coming at it

from a place of natural curiosity. The inspiration, which I've started to mention a

couple of times, I was reading Pier Diamandis' his book Abundance, and there was a

chapter on vertical farming which led me to Dickson Despommiers'

book on vertical farming, and then starting to have great conversations with some of the

founders of some of these folks in the space. And we were connected

to have a chat about what you're doing with Clawson Greens. So, for the

benefit of the listener, I'm wondering if you could give a little bit of

your backstory and how you sort of ended up in the

world of vertical farming. Yeah. So it's kind of a long

story. I kind of like to think I made a lot of good mistakes over

years that kind of led me to this. And, I've had

many, many jobs over the years and kind of farming, gardening has always

been kind of this little hobby. I studied communication

and forest recreation management up at the University of Maine. So,

I really got into the outdoors and became a trail builder and then moved out

west here to Idaho almost 13 years ago. And, I

started as a ski patroller. So, that's kind of my background was doing

medical work, avalanche control work, and skiing, and playing out

in the mountains. And, it was here in Teton Valley,

Idaho, we're right on the Wyoming border, and it's incredibly harsh winters

and they just last forever. And so, we have a really harsh

growing climate here. We have about 80, 85 days of actual growing.

And so, here, it's a traditional

conservative farming ag community, but, um, you know, for the

most part it's, it's barley, it's beer farms, it's, you know, hay,

alfalfa, and potatoes. And that's pretty much all you can grow out here

because it's just, you know, it snows 8, 9 months out of the year. So

there's always been this kind of, you know, thought of trying to figure out a

way to, you know, get food in and out of this community a little

easier and be able to grow a larger variety of crops.

And it was about 5, 6 years ago I went in to work

for my neighbors here who owned a small ranch in in the Sierras.

And, that was my first time traveling through Central Valley, California. And, I knew this

is where the majority, about 90% of our food came from.

And, they were at the end of about a 4, maybe even 5-year drought

at that point. And, everything that I could see was just lush and green, but

then I realized that was only where it was being irrigated. Everything

else was just brown all around. The streams were dry. The

rivers just had these tiny little flow. And, that's when I

realized like, wait a second, this is where all of our food comes from. There's

no water here. Our food system is already broken.

So, we're kind of redlined at this point. How are we going to

continue with— we've got, what, 7 billion people in the world?

We're trying to feed all these people here. We've got 380 million people.

In the next 15, 20 years, we're going to be at 8, almost

9 billion people. So, I was like, wait a second, we got to fix

something. And so, I would go and I was helping my neighbors on this

ranch prepare their property for wildfires. And, they lived up on top of this hill

and we were clearing brush and setting up water lines and

stuff like that. And, at night, we'd sit and drink beers in rocking chairs and

try and figure out all these little problems and kept coming back to our

little community in Teton Valley. And, it was always food. And, it was like, okay,

well, how do we grow our own food there? Okay. When it's wintertime, the highways

shut down. So our trucks in and out, we get closed off.

And so there was no way of getting food in. And so I was like,

okay, well, how do we do this? And my neighbor actually, they discovered Freight Farms.

And they were working doing private consulting at the time for Yosemite

National Park. And the park was looking at trying to

figure out a way to cut down on transportation costs of getting

food in and out of the park. So they discovered Freight Farms, did this whole

bid for the park, and Yosemite ended up turning them down. So

then they come back and they approached me, and I was

actually at the time, I was also working with the fire department, had been accepted

to a paramedic program in Boston, and I was moving to Boston to become a

paramedic firefighter. And they're like, hey, we know you're leaving like 2 months,

but we have this idea that goes back to that original problem we were

trying to fix— Freight Farms and vertical farming. And so that's,

yeah, kind of how I got into it. And long story short, I am not

a paramedic firefighter. I'm a vertical farmer. So many fascinating

parts about that that I feel like I want to dive deep into what goes

into being ski patrol. Yeah, I'm happy

to talk about that. It's— I still do it. Yeah, I've— I was a

full-time professional for about 9 years. Okay. For the next 3 years, if I

still do it kind of part-time. Yeah. It seems to be a thread because you

mentioned the ski patrol, you mentioned the fire department. Paramedic,

it seems like you have just a general love for the outdoors and having a

job that is necessary for you to be outdoors. Is that just something

that comes from your family, your upbringing? Is it like, where does that come

from? Yeah, I think for me, I need both a physical and that

kind of mental stimulation. And I think being

able to like ski patrol, it's a very physical job. You're constantly

out in cold climate and you're working hard. You're, you know,

you're constantly taking care of rope lines and helping people and

hauling stuff. And, it's a very physically demanding job. And then, on

the avalanche control work, it's working with explosives. And so,

there's also this really challenging— it's fun, it's

exciting. And then, you go from skiing to

the next second you get a call and there's somebody that needs CPR

and you have to immediately just transition. Wow. And then, you go into

that mental medical side, and it's also that kind of problem-solving.

And then, an hour or 2 later, that's over with, and then you go right

back to figuring out these projects and doing that kind of work.

So, it's very similar with the fire department. You're doing about 80%

of the fire department is medical calls, and it just keeps increasing these

days. And so, it's that physical side and also the mental challenge, which

is why also this farm is that it is very physical, but

also it's kind of a science. Mm-hmm. And it's, you know, just

problem solving. So talk to me about early days when you were approached

with this. How much did you know about the industry? How much did you know

about the technologies that were available? And, you know, how

much of the learning did you have to do to get

acquainted with what, what you were potentially going

to set out to do? Not much, really. I was a hobby

gardener and, you know, as a soil farmer with raised beds out here, and that

was about it. I did not know anything really about— so this

was 2015, 2016. when I started to get

kind of into this. 2016 fall is when we started Crossing

Greens. So, it was a pretty steep learning curve. And,

I kind of understood, I knew that people were using shipping containers for a lot

of stuff. I always thought it was pretty cool to build a house out of.

A lot of people out here use them as storage units and just kind of

as extra facility and understanding

that they can be used for all sorts of stuff. And so, I had more

of a knowledge of Shipping containers, and I knew that they could be

used for all sorts of stuff. And I knew that they're just, you know, millions

of them all over the world, just sitting around. And so I had that

understanding. And then once I learned that you could actually grow out of them, and

there was this company that was turning these containers into farms, I thought it

was really cool. And so what type of research did that involve

for you to learn about, you know, there's a different mindset

when you're coming at it from not only as a farmer in terms of

learning the technology, but also learning which crops or

what exactly you wanted to grow. So how did you go about that process? Because

I, I know that a lot of people, especially in the climate that we're in—

we're recording this in May 2020, in the middle of a,

of the COVID pandemic— and this idea, this concept of having local

access to fresh food is top of mind for a lot of people. And

so as you thought about that process of deciding what specifically you were going to

focus on, can you walk us through like what you were thinking and how you

decided on that? Sure. Well, I mean, to start one of these, you have

to understand that it is a business and that if you want to actually

do this, there has to be the idea that you want to be

successful. And there really wasn't an option. Failure was not an

option. It's a lot of time. It's a lot of money that you're investing. So

you want to make sure that you're going into this knowing what your community

needs, what those markets are, and then

figuring out Really, what it came down to was one, was

figuring out what product takes the least amount of time to

grow, also which takes up the least amount of space,

and then was figuring out, well, what do all of these different markets, whether

that's restaurants, direct-to-consumer, or to farmers market or a

grocer, you know, what's something that everybody is always, you know,

is there always a demand for? It always came back to

was lettuce and greens. And so, you know, every restaurant,

there's always, you know, some sort of salad that they're going to offer.

Every store is always going to have greens. So it was kind of a no-brainer

that that was what we were going to pretty much grow. And the Freight

Farm is known as the leafy green machine. That's what it does, you know, best

with. And it was also kind of figuring out, like, you can grow herbs, you

can grow hardy greens, but you really got to figure out what grows the

best. Because if you grow Try and grow herbs

and hardy greens in the same container. Well, they use a different nutrient blend. They

also like different temperatures. They like different humidity. So, it's really

focusing on one and really doing the

best that you can with that versus growing this huge variety of things.

So, that was really what we focused on, was growing a

handful of different lettuces and hardy greens. How much

did you have to educate yourself on all the different varieties in

leafy greens? You know, it was, you know, Freight Farms

is pretty good at kind of pointing you in that direction. But it was,

you know, I mean, going to the grocery store, we've all been to the grocery

stores, we know what they're serving. And I knew I didn't want to sell that.

I wanted to sell something totally different. And that was the cool thing, was that,

you know, you're able to go with like a seed catalog to the restaurants,

and the chefs can look at this catalog and say, whoa, that looks great. It's

like, okay, I can grow that for you. You know, just give me 8 weeks

and I'll have that for you. So it was giving them this ability to

kind of be able to set themselves apart from other restaurants.

Even in this tiny little community that we have, restaurants are

able to kind of set themselves apart and serve different

varieties of lettuce on their menu, which is a

great opportunity for both sides. It gives me the ability to

sell something that the grocery store and the large

commercial farms that you know, truck all their produce in can offer.

You know, it's just like red leaf, green leaf, spinach, and there you go.

So we knew that we didn't want to grow that. How much of it is

an education also then for the restaurants

and the grocery stores? So maybe just to back up a

bit, who is the primary clientele and what is the

percentage or the split between restaurants and grocers? 2 months

ago was 100% restaurants. So, and so

that's, you know, and I've done, I've done winter CSAs, which

was a community-supported agriculture, and that was something that nobody else could offer.

There's a lot of community-supported agriculture in the summertime with our

local organic farms. The thing was is that in a small community, I never

really wanted to compete with those other growers because I—

it's a very challenging— it's very challenging being an

outside soil farmer here in Teton Valley. And so they have limited

markets. And so that was never really our goal

to compete with them. It was always trying to figure out where

there was an opening in the markets that they were unable to actually supply

to. And that was winter, and a lot of it was restaurants. So

we knew that going into the restaurants were our kind of main focus.

Direct-to-consumer was another goal of ours. The restaurants was pretty

easy because they want the freshest, best-looking product.

And with a menu, they're able to hide the price of a more

expensive product very easily. So if, say,

you know, I up my price by 25 cents, you know, at the beginning

of, you know, their spring menu, they're able to put

that in, you know, very easily. And if somebody goes into a restaurant and they're

going to get a salad, whether the salad is $10 or

$10.25, they're not going to walk out. They're going to buy the

So when you're at a restaurant, you're looking at a menu, you're not like pricing

everything. You do make those decisions. But when you're at a grocery store, you have

all these options in front of you and you can make that choice of like,

oh, this one's $3, this one's $6. I'm going to go with the one in

the middle at $4.50 here. So that was

kind of hard. And we kind of knew that people were going to be— they're

a little bit more able to spend less money and they are

You know, that's their goal is to spend as little money as possible.

Whereas a restaurant, they want the best product. And so we knew we were able

to sell our product for more at a restaurant. So you said as of 2

months ago, it was 100% restaurant. So now how's that changed now?

We've got— so a couple restaurants did stay open and they kind of

did to-go. It's really hard. You know, a salad

is not the biggest seller on the to-go menu. So it was kind of hard.

So the majority of the restaurants Yes. Literally, in 2 days. I

have about 50% of my restaurants in Wyoming, 50% are here in

Idaho. And, it was in 2 days both Idaho and Wyoming

shut down the whole restaurant bar kind of scene. So, in 2 days, I lost

100% of my clients. That was hard, but we were

able to then just transition. What have you done since then to transition? So,

since then, because we had all this product and it was

figuring out, okay, well, people don't want to go to the grocery store. You know,

that's like the last thing people don't want to put masks on. They don't want

to put themselves into these areas. And the grocery store is literally

probably your best chance if you're going to like catch COVID it's going to be

in a grocery store somewhere or some sort because there's all these people there. People

don't wear masks, some do, people are touching things. And so people

really didn't want to go to the store. And so we kind of had this

idea of why don't we start a little farm stand and

we can just kind of reach out to the people that were a part of

our CSA in the past. And we can use Instagram and

Facebook and just kind of put it out there to people and just advertise that

we're going to just offer this up and it's going

to be a drive-up. And so, we just kind of put tables out and we

made pre-made bags. We just kept it easy. It was like a $10

and a $20 bag. And people would just kind of

show up and they'd stay in their car. And we just had—

we used Venmo as— we just had a whiteboard board, the information. So,

people come up and say, I'll take 2 bags, and say, here you go, that'll

be $20. And so, they would just pay right on their

phone. We'd hand it to them or put in the open window. And then, another

farmer from up the street, and they grow mushrooms, indoor mushrooms. They're

really fantastic. And so, we kind of teamed up. And so, you could

come and buy mushrooms and you could buy lettuce from us. And so, it was

great. We did that for a little while. And then, here is

you just about anywhere else in the country, the food banks are completely overwhelmed. And

so, it was trying to figure out, okay, well, we have these people that want

to buy from us, but our community that was already

having a hard time, these people just, they need food. And so, somebody

from the food bank actually reached out to me and they said, hey, we've got

some people that have been asking how they can make donations to the food bank.

And we thought that it would be a good idea if we had them

make a donation to you And then you just donate your food, your

greens to the food bank. And so that's actually now what I've transitioned to doing.

So it's a way for the community to help out the food bank. They can

make donations and it's also helping growers like

myself stay in business during this time. And at the same time, we're helping

out, you know, our community that really needs it. So it's been a great option.

It's so fascinating, this idea of the drive-through, because typically,

you know, as anyone who's grown up here in the States, they think of McDonald's

drive-through, right? Which is the worst possible like, uh,

non-nutrition. But it's so funny to turn it on its head and

say, hey, we're gonna keep that same model but do it for good and, and

for stuff that's— This is the healthy drive-through. That's, that's a, that's a beautiful pivot.

What did you learn about yourself in terms of how you had to

respond as a, as a business owner and figure out quickly, like, if I

don't figure something out, I'm out of business? Yeah, yeah, it happened

really quick. And I think that that's been one of the big issues for our

large-scale agriculture is that why you've read these

stories about dairy farms dumping milk or large

farms plowing all of their crops, which are perfectly good,

is that the system, the infrastructure that they have is not

set up to feed individuals and supermarkets.

They're set up to supply large chains and

schools and these— they don't have the

ability to just switch over to

small scale. And so, that was the thing. They're like, well, we're going to lose

all of this because we don't have the ability to spend all this money to

completely change our packaging. And so, that was

where I think that there's a benefit for small farms

like myself and all over the country, whether that's indoor farming or

just small-scale farming in a community, is we have the ability

to transition in a day or 2 from

restaurants to a direct-to-consumer to the

drive-up, whether that's working with the food banks. Whereas, these

large-scale systems that have all of these moving parts, they just don't

have that ability. And so, that's why they're literally pouring their product down

the drain or they're plowing perfectly good food. Yeah. I heard that

they even had to slaughter a bunch of chickens for the eggs. Yeah, exactly.

Their systems are not set up for it. And, I think that this

pandemic is really showing both our weaknesses and our

strengths. And, it's really kind of showing

what is valuable and where we need to make changes.

And, that's how we have all of this farmland, we have these

massive growers, and it's really hard because they

can't get the food out to us because of just their system that's in place.

And so, that's the challenge is like, okay, well, if we continue to put this

focus on big ag in times like this, it doesn't

work for the average person. It doesn't work for the grocery store. We have

all of the food, we can't get it to us. Have you thought

about changing the mix of the products you

offer? Because if you were traditionally restaurants and probably

higher-end restaurants who can actually sell

on their menu, like the benefits of having a bib versus a

butterhead or the varieties of romaine that you cover, and that

looks sexy on a menu, but when you— now, for a food bank

though, you don't have to be as discerning. So I'm wondering

how that's changed for you. You know, from that sense, I still

take the same pride in providing a beautiful

head of lettuce, whether that's going to the restaurant or if it's going to the

food bank. So there wasn't much of a change. It's that we don't have

to focus on, well, what are they going to pair this with? Or, how

is this going to be presented kind of thing? That was with a lot of—

we did specialty greens, which was wasabi arugula and

red vein sorrel or rainbow Swiss chard, things like that. We just

gave it right to the food bank. It was kind of like, if you've never

had wasabi arugula and you get it in this package and you take a

bite of it, it's like, where did that come from? Whereas, at a

restaurant, they would have this elaborate kind of write-up on

exactly what the flavor, you know, contrast will be with this. So

there wasn't that kind of focus for us. It was just kind of get the

food out to them. Can you talk a little bit about the day-to-day? Because I'm

fascinated about what like a day in the life looks like for Dave. And maybe,

you know, there may have been what a day looked like, you know, 6 weeks

ago and what a day in the life looks like now. So I'd be interested

in, in walking— you walking us through that. Sure. You know, mid,

midwinter we were harvesting So I have 3 of these

containers. And so each container, we harvest about 1,000 heads

a week per container. So on a good week, we're,

you know, 2,500 to 3,000 heads of lettuce a week. And

it just snows constantly. So it starts very early in the

morning of going out and doing snow removal, of plowing and snow

blowing and shoveling so that I can get my employees in and I

can get my van out. And so, there's just all these challenges. And then, it's,

okay, we need water. Alright, I need to set up the heated hoses. I need

to get all of this going. And so, just to start the day, it's

get a quick breakfast, up probably 5:30, 6:00, get going,

coffee, out the door, start working, and then get people in by

30, 8:00. And then, we're just harvesting and getting all

the restaurants lined up exactly what restaurant needs what.

And, it's nice because I I can just build a real quick

spreadsheet and say, this restaurant wants this, and just put it out

on the board. And, they come in, they can just look and see, okay, this

restaurant's getting this, this restaurant gets this, and they put them in the bags.

The biggest challenge between winter and summer

is driving. And so, I have some large restaurants

in Wyoming. Well, the thing is that we have Teton Pass

separates Idaho and Wyoming, which goes up to about

8,400 feet. It averages about 400 inches of snow a year.

It's one of the more challenging stretches of road in the country,

and that is my delivery route. And, it's constantly

getting closed because of avalanches that come across the road. So, sometimes

the highways just totally shut down. So, I've then got to figure out— I

have this drive around that adds about 4 hours to my delivery

It's tough when you're sitting on $1,000 worth

of greens in your van and you're sitting and they just close the highway. You're

like, well, I don't have an option. I've got to, again, back to that, there's

no failure here. We got to figure out a way. It's driving. So, some days

are really long, other days not so bad. So, that

was kind of through the winter. And then, with COVID hit

and there was kind of this really interesting time of Well, what does that

mean? And, it was, okay, well, what restaurants are going to stay open? Who's going

to close? And then, all of a sudden, the states just came down and said,

we're closing. It literally overnight just— it kind of changed everything for

us. And so then, it just kind of went to figuring out, well, we've got

all this produce. What do we do with it? Who needs it? How can we

get it out? And that was, well, we've got neighbors here. We've got people

that want to help. Let's do this. Let's just make a couple posts and

a few emails. And boom, we were in business. So that was

nice. Can you talk a little bit about the team, how big the operation

is, and also the ability to keep folks

employed, which I imagine was top of mind for you as well? So for the

most part, this past winter is myself and one other

person. I have one, one other employee. So that was, it

was pretty challenging. It was about 50, 60 hours a week for me with the

deliveries and running the business. It was challenging. And then having a part-time

employee that was probably about 20, almost 30 hours a week. It's really hard

to be able to offer a full-time job. I just don't have the hours for

it, which was hard. And so, it's kind of hard keeping people in that position

because I can't fault them if they find another full-time job, and I get it.

And, I mean, I've had employees that, I mean, my current employee right now

has her master's in geology. And, it's

like, well, what exactly are you going to do? And, she works on

this farm and she works on another farm. And so, we have people

from brewers to geologists to a

former director of a hospital. And, these are all part-time

employees that just come and they really love the work and they just wanted to

kind of help out. So, it's a real interesting team that I've had over the

past couple years. And, I kind of like that. I do get all sorts of

different people throughout the years. So, that's kind of how the team works. And

yeah, they get a lot of lettuce and I pay them a living wage

and they're pretty happy coming. They

work in a container. They harvest lettuce, and they listen to music and

podcasts. So it's not bad. How did you think about

the placement? Because you said you have 3 containers. Are they all geographically located in

the same place, or was there an idea of how to place them

strategically closer to where they're needed?

They're all in my backyard. Okay. They're all— I have

a barn, and I attached them all to the barn. So I have a shed

that I connect to the barn and these walkways that then go to the, uh,

to the containers themselves. For these, it was from day

one we knew that we wanted to have these on site. One,

I already own my land and my house here, so I

don't have to pay for a commercial piece of property. So that was

huge. And I know that is a challenge for a lot of people, especially in

an urban environment, is that people don't have the ability to just

put these things right in their backyard and have the infrastructure already set up. I

was able— I, you know, went out and rented an excavator and did a bunch

of land work and, you know, dug water lines and trenched out for electrical

and was able to do all that on my own. Where I know a lot

of people that live in, you know, in a city, they don't have that ability

and they just have to use the land that they can find and they've got

to pay a lot of money for that. So yeah, from the beginning we knew

that we wanted to start with one container and that it was It was always

going to grow to multiple containers. That was always the plan.

And do you distribute the varieties evenly across

the 3 containers, or do you have one container specifically for one variety?

We're geeking out on the specifics of it, but it's really fascinating.

Yeah, well, it's the ability. So the concept that I had

from day one was to kind of make our own spring mix, and that's what

people want when they have a salad at a restaurant. It kind of gives from

these options. And so I knew that I wanted to be able to, every time

I'm harvesting, I'm bringing people 4 or 5, 6 types of lettuce, and they can

then choose and make their own mix. So one of the containers I

might have more of one thing, or I might use that as like, I'm going

to grow a lot of rainbow Swiss chard because it takes up more room, so

I'm just going to use this one. But I really try and spread everything out

so at any given time I can always access every

variety of crop that I'm growing. So I always have that ability. There's

always, if somebody wants more of something, I always have that. And,

that was kind of the ability. It's also that idea of customization

for the chefs and the restaurants is that they always have

something that they wanted. And, there's also been a lot of kind of playing with

different things and figuring out what germinates the best. And, that was the

other thing is that a lot of times, a chef would be like, I really

want this, and I'd try it. And, it might look okay,

it could taste like crap, it just doesn't work. Yeah. Some of them

don't like, you know, the humidity, and so there's a lot of trial and error.

Over time, what I've, I've really kind of narrowed it down to about 8 or

9 lettuces that work every single time. Their

germination is like 98% and higher,

and it's just easy, and I just know. And it's also cost of seeds. So

it's figuring out your cost of seeds, your germination rates, and

what the restaurant is going to want every single time. Are you connected with

a community of other container farmers, and, and

do you share stories, best practices? There's one other

large indoor hydroponic farm, not here in Teton Valley but over

in Jackson Hole, Wyoming, and they're called Vertical Harvest. And,

they've worked with the state and the city. They've got all these

grants and they have this huge— it's a 3-story facility

on the side of a parking garage.

And, they use LED lights like I do, but they

also have— it's all glass on the south side of the building. So, they're also

able to use natural light. It's a really cool setup that they have. And we're

in, you know, we talk, but it was when I was going through the business

model and like we had figured everything out and we had just finalized

everything with the bank. And I literally had made the purchase

with Freight Farms. A friend of mine sent me an article about vertical harvest and

like, isn't this what you're doing? I was like, oh man,

like there goes the business. But the thing is, is that they're very limited. They

can grow a lot, but there's just so many restaurants, there's so much demand that

immediately we We realized that that's not our

competition. And, they're kind of in the same boat as us.

So, what's good for us is good for them. Our competition was more

what's going on in California and transportation and water shortages

and all of that. That's really climate change. That's our

competition. And so, that's what we kind of figured out. And, there is a very

supportive group here in Teton Valley. There are a lot of small farmers,

not many indoor farmers, more Indu Mushrooms, which is a mushroom farm right up the

street from me. They're an indoor mushroom farm. And, we were the ones who

started our little drive-through farm stand. We sell to a lot of

the same restaurants. A lot of times if I pick up a new restaurant, I'd

say, hey, if you want great mushrooms, I know a person, it's right up the

street and they love it. And so, we help each other out. And so, it's

been great. That's great. And, what have you learned? Because I think

As a consumer, we have tastes that we grew

up with, and for most people, it's typically iceberg lettuce, maybe it's

some romaine, and then as your palate continues to evolve,

then you appreciate the differences. But even just seeing what you have on the

menu, specific varieties, you have Bambi Bibb,

Salanova Butterhead, Cherokee Summercrisp, Chuches romaine,

and Rainbow Swiss chard. They

all have different textures, different tastes,

different profiles. Yeah, they look totally different. And, that was the goal is

that when you put them together, you have all of these

different types of greens all in one plate and it looks

great and it tastes great. And so, I think that that's when you're

saying, oh, do chefs understand and can people tell the

difference? And, it's an absolute 100% yes. Yes, because

people are used to just your standard romaine, iceberg,

green leaf, red leaf. That's about it. And then, when you look

at these Salanova that look like absolutely nothing, they're like, what is

this? And, you taste it, it's like, wow, that tastes fantastic. And, it's like, yeah,

well, that was because it was grown and harvested literally today and then was put

on your plate. It didn't take 10 days to get to that restaurant or

to get to your table. So yeah, that was kind of the

ability when you're just looking at it, and it's a selling point for both me

and it's a selling point for the restaurant because they're able to put that on

their menu and that's one of their biggest selling points. So this, this

current wave that we're in is not going to continue forever. And there

is some point where we see that some sense of, you know, I don't know

that there's ever going to be a normal, we're probably in what we consider a

new normal. So I'm wondering, as you think about marketing, if you could talk a

little about that, you know, You had a marketing plan in place and how you

were offering up the services and educating restaurants.

And so can you talk about what you are planning to do from a marketing

perspective as places start to open up to ensure that you get the

word out about, about Clawson? Yeah, I mean, I'm still gonna

go, you know, the majority of the restaurants that I was selling at are gonna

go back and continue to buy from Clawson Greens. It's really

figuring out, well, how much are they gonna be buying? You said

normal after all of this, whenever that is, we don't actually

know. That's not going to be— we have no idea what normal actually is

going to be. Is that 50% capacity? Is that

25% capacity? I don't quite know. I still

want and will continue to supply to all these restaurants

because they need to stay in business just like me. They

have families they need to feed. Take care of everybody. They need to stay, you

know, open. So I'm obviously gonna be working with them. It's then

figuring out, like I was saying, during this whole time, I think we figured out

our strengths and our weaknesses. And I think that the strengths of a business like

mine, we're able to find all these different markets and whether

that is that direct-to-consumer. And I really do like the

direct-to-consumer route. It's easier because for me, I can

make more money doing it because If I were to sell everything to the local

grocery store, well, they have to then mark it up. And it's usually a 40%,

almost 50% markup. So for me, I'd have to sell it to them for less.

And I've done it before, and it was tough because then I had to

sell it. I couldn't sell for anything less. I had to sell for what I

could. And I got to the grocery store and I saw what they were selling

it for. I was like, whoa, that's expensive. I mean, I like my lettuce, but

I don't know if I'd spend that. And so it's a little easier

for people to just say, oh, I'm going to spend $10 on this, and this

is going to feed, you know, myself and family for, you know, X amount of

days. And if I want more, I'm going to buy a larger bag kind of

thing. And they also know that they're supporting a local business. And I think

that that's the great thing about it, is that people, when they come in and

they sit down at a restaurant, they look on the menu and they see a

local product, they want to support that local, you know, farm, or they want

to, you know, support the local rancher where, where that meat came from, and they

make that connection. And, whether that's they sit down like, oh, I know

Kloss& Greens. I know Dave. I read about it in an

article. I want to support them, and they make that connection. And, they're more

willing to spend an extra dollar, extra $2 on it. And

so, there's that advertising for both me and there's also advertising for the

restaurant. So, having your name on the menu is a great way for both

consumer and for also the grower. Well, it's interesting what you were saying about this

idea of community because I've seen this in, in, you

know, helping folks in the podcasting space and, and new

services. Even the, even the tool that we're using right now, SquadCast, um, I,

I've been helping. I'm an advisor to the company. And what I told the guys

early on is like, though people buy from other people, so the sooner

they can establish like a face recognition or name recognition— because

to your point, it's Dave from Clausen Greens that they have a

relationship with— then I think it goes a long way towards showing that

you are a member of the community, you're not a

faceless entity, and when people buy from you, there's this sense

that they're supporting a local cause as well. So I feel like

that goes a long way to deepening the relationships you're having

with your customers. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, a restaurant

doesn't put, you know, on their menu, you know, Cisco

salad or a US Foods steak, you know,

there's no point. Like, nobody's gonna make a connection. They don't know who Mr. Cisco

is. But, you know, when they're able to say, oh,

well, this is Kloss and Green's from, you know, Tetonia, or

Morning Dew Mushrooms from Tetonia, or, you know, HD Dunn

Beef, you know, which is in Driggs. And so it's, you know, people make this

connection. And especially for tourists, when they come here, they want that connection. They,

they traveled, you know, a long distance to this town, and they want to be

a part of, you know, this community. And that's kind of their way, is supporting,

you know, whether they're going to local shops or they're buying from, you know, the,

uh, the markets, or they're, you know, supporting the growers that are on the menus.

And so there's— I mean, there's, there's plenty of research out there that people

are willing to spend more money and support the local,

uh, community. And so that's what we have, and that's why I think,

you know, the ability of these small business businesses and from ranchers, growers,

you know, that there is, there is a future even with,

you know, what's going on with this whole pandemic, that people want to help, people

want to support. So Dave, as you think about like what you had in

mind for what this business would be when you got started and

what you've experienced and obviously even how you've had to

shift, what have you learned about yourself

that maybe you didn't know coming in would be something that would, would be a

change for you? Sure. I think I kind of have always, you know,

I've loved the education side. And whether that was, you know, ski patrolling, you know,

there's always this element of education because there's a lot of times that people would

come, you know, from, you know, all over the country or world,

and they come into these mountains and it is pretty daunting. And they're

kind of looking around, you know, eyes wide open, like, whoa, what did I get

myself into? And you you've got to be able to kind of communicate with people

and kind of let them know like what's going on, where, you know, why they're

here, what this is all about, and how to be safe. And so I think

that I've been able to also kind of bring that education into, you know,

growing. And so we've been working with Full Circle Education, which

is a nonprofit here in our community, and it works with the local schools,

and it brings school groups to different farms, and they take field trips, and they

come here. And it's, you know, People, or, you know, these kids,

these 4th, 5th, 6th graders, they come here, and for some kids, you know, that

just don't understand where food comes from, and a lot of people still think your

food just comes from the grocery store, and they don't have that, you know, connection

of, oh, there's actually farmers. Oh, there's people that, you know, grow this food, then

it goes to the grocery store. And the cool thing is that,

you know, it's not this traditional where, you know, oh, your farmer is this old

guy in overalls. It's that there's, you know, young people like

myself that have all sorts of different backgrounds

and we're using technology. And I think that's really one of the cool

things is that getting into this, I knew that there was going to constantly be

these advances. And that was the exciting thing about it is that on

day 1 versus, you know, 5 years down the road, there's so

many other options that container farms, urban farming, hydroponic

farming, all of these different options are going to be able to kind of

change as needs change, whether that's, you know, land

space that we just don't have anymore, or water, and we have

less things available to us. We have to make more with less.

And I think that that's what's great about what I'm doing and being able to

educate that to younger people and have that kind of, you

know, grow up. And so they understand that there's a difference and that there are

other options. And kids love technology.

And when you open up one of these containers and all the lights are on,

it's still cool 4 or 5 years later that I've been doing this. I'm still

in awe when I go in and I'm like, wow, this is what I do.

This is impressive. Yeah, it's really inspiring. So one of the

questions I like to ask as we wrap up is what's something you've

changed your mind about recently? I think in the last couple of weeks, I mean,

up is down, down is up. And I think that it's again figuring

out, you know, where our strengths are. And I think we've kind of

seen where a lot of our weaknesses are, but I think there's a lot of

time that we can figure out what our strengths are. And I think it comes

down to community. And I think that that's probably one of the strongest things

that I've seen in this tiny little town is that, you know, everything

is from schools are shut down, all these businesses, but, you know, people still remain,

you know, confident. They seem pretty upbeat. And the amount

of just outpour to all of our local businesses has been

fantastic. And I think I've really learned that if you try

and you put yourself out there to help out the community, they're going to

respond. And I think that that's what I've really seen. And a lot of people

have also, whether that's the restaurants, working with the restaurants or other growers,

you know, there's just been amazing feedback. And I'm confident that kind of

moving forward that this isn't just going to go away. You know, there's still going

to be this connection that people just don't kind of give up on, you know,

and because we don't quite know what normal is going to be like in, you

know, months from now or 6 or, you know, a year from now. But I

think as we continue to make connections and kind of put yourself

out there and, you know, just be a face, whether that's, you know, being a

farmer or being an artist or whatever that be, you know, people are going to

respond to it. Well, that's truly an inspiring story. And I was

really grateful that we've been connected and to allow you to tell

the story of what's happening on the ground because, you know, you hear a lot

of like what these bigger farms doing, but to have a conversation with someone

who is working on this day to day, getting up early, you

know, figuring out what's the challenge for the day is really inspiring. And the

fact that you've been able to pivot through the current

crisis, I think is going to make you more resilient as a business owner,

especially in this industry that's still growing. So as we wrap up,

what's something that you're excited about when it comes to the vertical

farming I think it's efficiencies in technology.

I think that it's just every year that's, you know, it

continues to grow. And I think there's more and more people out

there that are kind of, you know, starting to come around and figure out this

is a really amazing technology and there's ways to make it even

better. And, you know, figuring out whether that's, you know,

new types of lighting, new nutrients, being able to do more with less. more

and less and more efficiently. And that's what I really love about it.

And that's why, you know, when I said from day one I knew that in

5 years I was going to have no idea what I was going to be

doing, and that's the exciting thing, is that it constantly is changing. Well, that's

great. So, uh, where's the best place for folks to get connected with

you and to learn more about Kloss and Greens? klossandgreens.com. We have—

I, I check that every once in a while. Instagram and Facebook is a, a

great way, or Dave at Kloss If you ever just want to shoot me an

email, I'm happy to chat. Yeah, if I ever make my way to that part

of the country, you'll have to give me a tour as well. Absolutely, be happy

to. Thanks again for your time, Dave. I really appreciate you sharing your story with

my audience. Happy to be here. Thanks. So thanks again to Dave Riddell.

I really appreciate the story of how he

became a vertical farmer, and I think differently from

some of the earlier episodes, It really paints a

picture of the different ways you can arrive in the

vertical farming industry and the different paths that you can take. And

Dave sharing his background as a ski patrolman and

paramedic firefighter, I think, really humanizes him and really

paints a great picture of how passionate he is about this

industry, which is why I loved the ability to tell his story. If you enjoyed

this episode or past episodes, please leave us a rating and review at

ratethispodcast.com. As always,

special thanks to our season 1 sponsor, Intelligent Growth Solutions.

Podcast production and marketing provided by Fullcast. If your company would like to

understand how a podcast can help your brand, sign up for a free call

at fullcast.co/chat15.

Make sure you tune in next week for my conversation with Nicola Kerslake.

She's the founder of Contain. Most in the vertical farming industry will be

familiar with Contain, but if you're not, Their platform connects the people who

make indoor growing happen. They've got a unique program that

supports leasing and insurance programs for vertical farming

projects. And Nicola is a fantastic guest

with a lot of energy and enthusiasm for the industry. So I really enjoyed

that conversation. I can't wait to share that one with you. Thank you for joining

us on this episode of the Vertical Farming Podcast. Here's to your health.

Thanks for listening. To hear all past episodes and read the episode

summaries, which includes any links mentioned in the episode, as well as

a full show transcription, visit

verticalfarmingpodcast.com. There you can sign up for our

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