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Show Notes

Episode Overview

The conversation focused on how historical perspectives and beliefs shape contemporary experiences of Christianity, with a strong emphasis on the interconnectedness of faith, personal growth, and restorative practices. Through an exploration of pivotal moments in church history, personal stories, and reflective dialogue, the discussion explored the impact of past doctrines on present-day faith and community engagement.

Three Key Takeaways

1. History Deeply Shapes Contemporary Faith

One concept discussed was the strong influence of church history on how Christianity is lived and understood today. The episode illustrated this with an interactive exercise, using volunteers positioned to represent different eras in church history—from the time before Jesus, through the Reformation, to the present day 01:38. A key theme that emerged was that much of what shapes current Christian practice actually stems from key events and shifts that took place centuries ago, particularly during the Reformation with leaders like Martin Luther 10:17. Recognizing these historical influences helps listeners better understand why certain doctrines, such as “saved by faith alone,” are so prevalent today.

2. The Faith and Works Debate Is Both Old and Ongoing

The discussion explored the roots and modern impact of the tension between “faith alone” and the necessity of works. Several points were raised, including Martin Luther’s pushback against the Catholic practice of indulgences and his overcorrection toward “faith alone,” as well as his disdain for the Book of James for its emphasis on faith demonstrated through action 16:09. A key insight was that, originally, these concepts were not separated—faith was always understood as something lived out through love and care for others 20:03. The episode challenged listeners to move beyond a reductionist view and to consider that genuine faith must express itself through loving action.

3. A Growth Mindset and Restorative Faith

The importance of embracing a growth mindset was highlighted through personal stories about learning from past mistakes and the ongoing journey of faith 25:13. Listeners were encouraged to integrate failure as a means for spiritual and personal maturity, rather than allowing it to fragment their identity 27:41. Communion was presented as a restorative act, echoing Jesus’s inclusive table and the bigger vision of salvation as the restoration of all things and people 28:52. The episode concluded by emphasizing the call to restorative, inclusive love in both personal and community spheres.

Reflection Question:

How do your beliefs about the past and future shape how you act today?

Everyone is welcome at the table—faith, questions, doubts, and all.

I just echo Ellie's prayer, Lord, and just lift that up, that we would trust that you are good to us and that we would encounter that and experience that today, especially if we're coming from a place where we've had a hard week emotionally or mentally or hard season, a hard life. Or maybe there are people today coming back to church for the first time, and there's a lot of emotions with that. I pray that whoever that is in the room, they would feel warmth, not just from us, but from your Spirit. Have mercy, Lord. In Jesus' name, amen. 3 volunteers. Kara's one. I need another.

Tucker, come on up. Who else? I need one more. Come on. We got 2. Angie, come on up. I don't know how we're going to do this camera-wise, fellas, because I'm going to span the room. Okay, online people, if you can't see well, you're gonna have to imagine. Tucker, can you just go stand over there, right where that picture, that little snippet is of the Sistine Chapel there? Come this way a little bit, bud.

This way. Yeah.

All right.

Kara, move that way a little bit. All right. Keep going.

Keep going.

Keep going.

Keep going.

You're good. You're good. Emily, if you want to do any camera work, have at it. I don't know if You can't see it. I'm so sorry, folks. Just imagine Tucker is over there as far as west can go, and Angie is as far as east can go, and Kara is somewhere in the middle. She's closer to east. Wait, right? East.

Yeah.

Okay. Sometimes— here's what we're representing today. How many of you, like, get so bored and your mind just fogs over when we start talking history? How many of y'all like, okay, we gotta talk about it today a little bit. So hang with me because I swear this really applies. Bobo, I heard that. I swear this applies big time to what we experience day in and day out with Christianity in our neck of the woods. Just like sometimes You are struggling with something in your life and you feel it day in and day out. Like, I was talking to my mom this week and we were just discussing mental health and some things I struggle with sometimes.

I, I have my life— I'll be 40 in December. I was that many years and days old when my mom told me, oh yeah, your aunt struggled with that too. I had no idea. So sometimes, like, what has happened in the past is hanging with us in the present, and we don't know it, but we feel it. Right? Right? That, that same thing that happens to us at a family systems level happens at the level of our faith in Christianity. Are you with me? Have I lost you? Are you still with me? I don't want to bore you to tears with history. So here's the point today. Tucker, you good? All right, good.

Everybody over here good? All right, so— oh, I think this is what I want to say. I think, I think this is important, right? Come on. What we imagine or believe about the beginning and the end will greatly affect how we act in the middle. Read that with me, pretty please. What we imagine or believe about the beginning and the end will greatly affect how we act in the middle. We are in— which one of those are we in? The beginning?

No.

Are we in the end?

No.

Jesus says the kingdom of the heavens has come near. So something has started here in the middle that is racing toward a good end. Keep that in mind. As much as you may feel in the middle, We're actually greatly connected to the end, but also to the beginning. Now, now I've lost you. Now, are you with me still?

Okay.

All right. All right. I gotta walk around now. Let's see how long this will stretch.

Good work.

Okay. We are here. Oh, we're still good. Hi, Angie. Aren't we thankful for Angie?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We love Angie.

Angie represents today, today Christianity in our neck of the woods. Okay, you're a good representative of that.

Okay.

Oh, oh, you were slouching like it's not so great right now. Okay. Yeah, in general. Yes, yes. All right, so we experience— well, Angie's too great. Imagine Christianity that you experience today, just out there.

Okay.

Okay, are you with me? We good? What we don't realize is that much of what we experience with Angie is a result of Kara. Hi, Kara.

Hi.

Charlemagne serves on our communications team. That's why she's taking pictures and videos to reboot some of our website stuff. Give her a round of applause for that. Julie Knutson's helping. Ellie's taking some pictures to help. The church is the people. Praise God. What we don't realize is much of the Christianity we experience is, is from Charlemagne on.

Okay, Charlemagne represents some things that happened about 500 years ago. Are you with me? Have I bored the people who hate history to tears? Are you still with me, Bobo?

Yes.

Good. Okay. All right. What we experience up here in our neck of the woods is a result of what happened with Charlemagne and on. Okay, what we don't realize, even the folks who are like really— they're like in love with ideas that started here. We have folks in our neck of the woods that, that act like, believe like the only thing that has ever existed with Christianity is from here on. Okay, you with me? What they forget is from Charlemagne to Tucker. Aren't we thankful for Tucker?

Yeah.

Joanna, can you stand up and go to the door over there?

I thought you were going to ask me to do something with a birthday cover-up.

Sorry. Tucker— Tucker is Jesus. That's fine. Tucker is when Jesus showed up on earth. What we don't realize is there— this is small. There was a bunch from here to Tucker. Are you with me? You know what else we forget? Sometimes Christians, even ones who are really like, they're aware, they don't get all caught up in just this. They're like, yeah, there's this too.

You know what even they forget? Joanna. And that is all the stuff before Jesus. The Old Testament, the tribes of Israel. Jesus was Jewish. Did you know he was the Messiah sent to the— like, out of the tradition of traditions of Israel to the Israelites? but also beyond the Israelites to the whole world. Are you with me? For God so loved the...

World.

For God so loved the...

World.

That He gave...

His only begotten Son.

Tucker, what a day for you, man. You know what else we forget? There's Brittany in the back. Say hello to Brittany. We forget Amen. That the time before Joanna— it got online. If you can't see, there's just people all over the room. God transcends it all. Do we remember that God exists beyond all of our efforts to interpret who God is and to live according to God's heart? We have to remember that too and not take all of our truths So seriously.

All right? You all can sit down. Give him a round of applause. Here's why this matters. I'm going to tell you something that happened with Kara, okay, that we experience a lot of in our neck of the woods. Are you ready for it? Bobo, have I put you to sleep?

No. No?

Okay. Okay. If Bobo's with me, you all are with me. That. Say that with me. What does that mean? Anyone? Just take a guess. Tucker, how about it?

It's a new flavor of Fanta.

Yes, it is. A new flavor of Fanta that's coming out, yeah. What's that mean? Saved by faith alone. What? Oh, sorry, sorry. Yeah, it is— sola fide means that. That idea started Big time, right here with Kara. Okay, when we're hanging out with Christianity in our neck of the woods, that idea is big, and I want to tell you today why that really matters and why we've got to rethink it. Okay, are you with me?

Yes.

Okay, if we don't learn from our past, what are we bound to do?

Amen.

Well, today we want to heal some of the generational issues we've had. Okay? There was this guy named Martin Luther. He once nailed something called the 95 Theses on a church door. These were like his grievances with the Catholic Church. There was no Protestant a bunch of Protestant denominations at the time. No Lutherans, no Calvinists, no Methodists, not even an Anglican Church yet, Church of England. There's the Catholic Church. And this Martin Luther guy was really mad at the Catholic Church.

Why?

Does anyone know? What's that?

Because of charis.

Because of charis. No, charis is the fix that Luther proposed. Here's why. If you read the 95 Theses of Martin Luther— Martin Luther is— his namesake is the—

95.

Thank you, thank you, Emily. 95. Emily's always there to correct me when I go wrong. Appreciate you in a good way, in a good way. That was Adam. Thank you. 95 Theses. I was thinking of a Jay-Z song that I won't mention, but anyways.

Sorry, I cannot— I shouldn't have said that out loud. But anyways, oh boy, that one's going to come back. So anyways, he, he had this— he wrote out like things he was struggling with religion with. Did you— could you believe that 500 years ago people struggled with religion? It's nothing new, guys. Nothing new. Here's what he was most upset about. There was this practice that was becoming very popular in the Catholic Church called—

Indulgences.

Yeah, some people— now we got the history nerds like, oh, this is my day. I'm so excited. It's my day. That. I'm telling you, this history matters. If you're like, I'm so bored right now, can we please move on? I'm telling you, this matters so much more than you ever realize in your day-to-day life. Just when I learned this week, hey, Ross, your aunt struggled with that too. Really? I didn't know.

Our past is with us more than we realize, so we need to become aware of it and decide, how much do I want my past to be with me? As much as we can influence and control it. Here's what they did. So say— I love you, Dad— say my dad is dead, okay?

Okay.

Sorry, we needed it for illustration purposes. I am the priest. Okay. There is this Catholic belief that was becoming a little bit more popular called purgatory. It's like where you hang out in limbo for a while. Remember what I said, what you believe about the end affects how you act in the middle? If you believe Christianity is all about just going to heaven or hell, What are you going to do in the middle, right? So Dad, God bless him, is in purgatory. He's not in the bad place. He's also not in the good place.

And so here's what the— some people were doing in the Catholic Church. Mark Knudsen was like, I like Ron. I want to see Ron move to the good place. And so Mark comes to the priest into the church and gives some money. So the priest advocates to God for Ron to move over to the good place. Are you with me? Did I— did you catch that sequence of events?

Yes.

Ron in purgatory. Mark Knudsen is really close to Ron, and he says, here's some money, priest. Advocate for Ron to move, to move from purgatory Are you with me? Those are called indulgences. That must be good news for me. Martin Luther was like, uh-uh! No more! And so he hammered these 95 Theses on the door of a church at Wittenberg and said, we've got to make this stop! Martin Luther was really sick and tired of works. Say works. He meant works like that. Martin Luther did not necessarily mean works like going out and serving your neighbor.

He meant like certain rituals and practices. That's kind of a scary thing right now. It's because I said the Jay-Z thing. That's what it is. So, Bobo, are you still with me?

Yes.

Okay. So he's like, this has to stop. It must stop. We are not saved by works. We are saved by faith alone. That happened with car and on.

Okay.

But I've totaled one car in my life. It was from overcorrection. I was driving on 52 in West Lafayette, God's glory land, you know. Hey, it's IU. You guys got such a better sports team right now. Anyway, so I looked down to get a hat and I was drifting over this way instead of just correcting it a little bit.

I went—

Car is totaled.

Luther—

what did Luther do? Overcorrected. And so he wrote something like this. He hated the book of James in the Bible. Are you still with me or have I lost you? There's a lot of connecting dots here, but this is important for the Christianity you experience today. It really is. Therefore, St. James' epistle is really an epistle of straw. That was meant to be— I know we're like, is that a mean thing to say? Yes, you don't want to be an epistle of straw compared to these others, for it has nothing— say nothing.

Nothing.

Of the nature of the gospel about it. Martin Luther wished the book of James was not in the Bible. Why would he say that? Why in heaven's name would he say such a thing? We're in the— God, we're in the letter of James now, and James starts saying like, how you act is just as important as what you believe. If how you act is rotten, perhaps your faith is rotten. Are you with me? Don't claim the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ while showing partiality. What was going on in some early Christian communities? They would have these suppers together. The rich folks would get to supper early and they'd start mowing down, and then the poor folks would show up and be mistreated and get the scraps. James is like, nuh-uh, if you believe in Jesus, you won't be doing such things.

You will have a special heart for the vulnerable among you. And he keeps going. See, look, some of y'all are treating the rich— why? Because you want their, you want their favor too. You're treating them all nice. Has not God chosen the poor in the world to be rich in faith and to be heirs of the kingdom that he promised to those who love him? But you've dishonored the poor person. James is like, not just like Martin Luther. It's ironic that Luther hated this letter. But why did he hate it? Let's keep going.

Oh, I skipped forward. I didn't mean to do that. There it is. Look, he starts here. If you fulfill the royal law according to Scripture, you shall love your neighbor as yourself, you do well. But you show partiality. Keep going. We're coming.

It's coming. It's coming. It's coming. It's coming. There it is.

See it?

What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but does not have I think I lost you. What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but does not have—

Works.

Surely that faith cannot save, can it? But wait a minute, what do we do? Do you see why Luther didn't want this letter? When something doesn't fit our truth, sometimes you know what we do as human beings? We just want to chuck it out instead of deal with it. We do that personally. When we want to keep our resentment, what do we do? We make out the person against whom we have the resentment out to be a monster. We kick out all the good things they did and we just focus on all the bad things and hold on to resentment. In the same way, Luther's like— sorry, got to make it back there. Luther's like, I hate this letter because I hate what's going on in the church. I hate how they're using these indulgences things to think it saves people. James says, so if a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food, and one of you says to them, go in peace, keep warm, and eat your fill, and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is— so faith by itself, if it has no works, is—

Dead.

Listen, here's the point.

Before Kara.

Before Kara. Okay, over to Tucker. This faith and works debate was not a thing. Every— all the original writers, all the way back to Joanna, they understood back in the Torah, they understood that if you believe in God, it will express in like love towards your neighbor. It's not like, okay, is it faith or it's works? It's It's like, duh, right? Doesn't it seem weird to separate out faith and works? But man, here in our neck of the woods, what is the most important thing to be a Christian? What's the most important thing that you do? You have faith so that— Go to church. What's the most important thing that someone could do? They have faith so they go to— A lot of churches are preaching this idea of saved by faith alone on steroids. So it's like the most important thing is like you believe in Jesus so you go to heaven and not hell. Are you with me still?

Yes.

Remember what I said? What you imagine about the beginning and the end will affect how you act in the middle. So if I am interacting with neighbors and I think the point of Christianity, the whole point is whether you go to heaven, which is somewhere in the clouds with golden streets, or you go to hell with a guy with a pitchfork and horns, how am I going to treat somebody? Can I treat him with love? I can.

I can.

But what's the undercurrent following me around?

Right?

Can I tell you an awful story about me? I've told it before. When I was younger, this was my paradigm. This is how I lived out faith. What you think about the end will affect how you act in the middle. I thought the only thing that matters at the end of the day is that you believe in Jesus so you go to heaven. If you shrink down your view of salvation— listen to me— if you shrink down your view of salvation, You will shrink your view of God. You will shrink the present moment with your neighbor. You will shrink everything with it.

So guess what? My dear brother Justin was telling me for the first time about trauma he experienced as a boy, pouring out his soul to me over a campfire, weeping for the first time, telling his story. I listened, listened, Listen. Have mercy on me, God. You know what I said to him? Do you want to pray the sinner's prayer with me? Saved by faith alone. My heart was in the right place. My belief was in the wrong place. I believed that was ultimately the only thing that matters. And you know what I needed to do instead? Put my hand on his shoulder.

And just say, I'm so sorry this happened. I love you, and I'm so sorry this happened. That is infinitely more Christlike than saying, do you want to pray the sinner's prayer? Do I want my brother to know Jesus and follow Him today? You bet your butt I do! Because I think Jesus is awesome! I think Jesus restores you from the inside out— mind, body, spirit— transforms you, makes you a new creation so you build with Christ the new creation. But man, if I would have believed that, then I would have understood that right now this listening to my brother is restorative work. My brother telling his story, sharing his trauma, weeping, me listening and just saying I'm sorry is the restoration work of Christ. Heaven was bursting into the scene right then. I brought hell into it. Heaven was rushing into our midst, and I brought up hell because I thought that's what you do.

I've been talking for a long time. I would love to hear from you. What is this history lesson and what we're talking about— like, what's this stirring in you? What's it making you think and feel and wonder? Joanna, go ahead.

Hi, first of all, as your sister, who would I be if I didn't give you more credit than that?

I'm a little protective of you.

You were very young at that time, and I appreciate you sharing that. But what— because you were so young, what it makes me think is just how we should all have a growth mindset and be learning together every day, and that we all should, you know, We've all been— surely we've all been there where I was like, oh, I told this person the wrong interpretation of this verse or whatever. But through time and reading and prayer and faith, you grow and you change and you learn those things. So I just think that it just reminds me to have a growth mindset.

Thank you. What's that make you think, what I'm saying? Go ahead. It's, it's Ross's family day. Go ahead, Evan.

I think we can get caught up in thinking we have to do everything right the first time. We've got to keep an open mind and listen to Jesus and say, Lord, help me to be all I can be and do what all you would have me to do.

Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, I've told my brother sorry for that, by the way. And you know what's funny is he doesn't even remember it. So that's a lesson too. Like, sometimes we hold on to our errors and hold them over ourselves in a way that somebody else isn't even thinking about. Because you know what my brother had in his mind? The hours and hours and hours I did spend on the phone with him listening. That's what he remembers, not the one mistake I made, right? What else? What's this stirring up in you? Go ahead, Melissa.

It reminds me of the question of the learning, um, where I got to the, like, you know, very end of it. You're taught things like just sisters and sisters. And then getting older and you hear completely different things and questioning it, saying, where does all of this come from?

It's, it's really good to question and ask, like, how did we get here? Again, what we assume about the beginning and the end affects how we act in the middle. So it's good to say, like, how did we get here? What do I assume about where it's going? 'Cause it'll affect what we do right now.

What else?

I am glad you made that mistake because your hit is what pushed you beyond that legal room into being the aware person that you are now. Yeah, same way with all of us. Yeah, I can go on for a few hours about all the mistakes I made in my ministry.

We, uh, that makes me think of this, PT. I just— Emily and I presented, had a group of pastors here that were learning with us on Tuesday, and I put this slide up. You know that, you know that phrase, failure is not an option? Failure is an option, and failure is one of our best teachers. It's when we avoid the failure that we become a fragmented person. When we integrate the failure, learn from it, grow from it, that's when we mature, integrate, bear fruit, so on. Well, hey, speaking of, uh, fruit, Jesus, before, before he Gave up his life to make a new way for us. He drank the fruit of the vine, he drank wine, and he ate bread in his Last Supper with his disciples. And we're going to do that today, to think about— like, to go back to where Tucker was standing, to go back to that time and think, like, to be restored by Jesus's vision of the table.

Right.

Jesus was always eating with people, and so he just did that as a sign of community. He did it as a sign of welcome. He did it as the ultimate picture of what God's kingdom looks like. God's kingdom coming to earth ultimately looks like a table where individuals are restored and the world is ultimately restored. That is Jesus's picture of salvation, is the entire restoration of the world. And each individual restored as well. So we're going to have communion together. Christy's bringing up some handsets (elements).

I need one more volunteer to help out with communion.

Oh, Bobo.

It's Bobo's birthday. We're going to go with her, Kara, since it's her birthday. Kara, you've already been Reformation embodiment today. Yeah, I hear you. I hear you. Thank you. So at the end of the day, like, we can always go back to Jesus's table if we don't know what else to think about things. Like, think about his table, how Jesus, the night before he died, Peter, who would deny him, was sitting there.

Thomas, who is the doubter, was sitting there. Judas, the betrayer, was sitting there, and Jesus ate with them anyway. And He said to all of them, this is My body, and it is broken for you. Whenever you eat this, do it in remembrance of Me. And then He took a cup, and He said, whenever you drink of this, remember that it's like My blood poured out for you for the release— releasing you from sins and evil and darkness, breaking you free. Do it in remembrance of me. So this is a time, if you're new to us, you're like, what is this weird ritual? It's just a way for us to sit in a special way at Jesus's table together. So you'll come up, you'll get a piece of bread from Bobo, you'll get a little cup from Christy.

Everybody is welcome. If you have no idea what you believe about Jesus, come get bread and juice and sit with us at the table. At our table, everyone is welcome.

Amen.

And we mean everyone. Jesus sits with us at this table, restores us, and helps us become part of the new creation. Will you pray with me? Lord, will you pour out your Spirit so that this would be for us the body and blood of Jesus present with us, restoring us, healing us, forgiving us, so we go out and restore and heal and forgive. In Jesus' name, amen. Amen.