Are you worried about being an ineffective leader?

In this week's episode, we had the pleasure of chatting with Debra Corey, a dynamic speaker and expert in the field of employee engagement and HR. Debra opened up a discussion about power dynamics at work, particularly focusing on the concept of hoarding information. She explained how hoarding information can be a power play, with individuals deliberately withholding knowledge and positioning themselves as gatekeepers. The negative impact of this behaviour on colleagues and overall team morale cannot be underestimated. 

During our conversation, Debra highlighted the importance of distinguishing between different types of bosses. On one hand, there are those who simply don't care about the harm they may cause to their team members. On the other hand, there are well-intentioned bosses who may be unaware of the negative impact they have on others. 

Debra shared personal experiences of working with terrible bosses who fell into both categories. To tackle this issue, Debra suggested the importance of educating people on being great bosses and fostering self-awareness. It's essential for individuals to understand the impact they have on their team and to create an environment where open and honest feedback is encouraged. 

Debra mentioned that sometimes people may be afraid to give direct feedback, and it got us thinking about how we can create a safe space for such conversations. One fascinating point Debra brought up was the power of humour in diffusing tense situations. She believed that humour could play a role in turning a difficult situation into something that can be laughed about and learned from. We couldn't agree more - finding ways to bring lightness into our work lives can make a significant difference in our overall happiness. 

In addition, Debra stressed the importance of setting clear expectations and practising effective communication. This includes being transparent about the time required for tasks and projects, as well as the level of quality expected. By reducing ambiguity, we can avoid confusion, overdelivering, or unnecessary stress. 

She also mentioned her upcoming book, in which she interviews 24 thought leaders to gain even more insights into workplace dynamics. We can't wait to get our hands on it and learn from her valuable findings.

The main points throughout this podcast include:

• The negative impact of hoarding information
• Distinguishing between different types of bosses
• The importance of educating people on being great bosses and fostering self-awareness
• The power of humour in diffusing tense situations
• Setting clear expectations and practising effective communication

Connect with Debra

Website www.debcohr.com 

LinkedIn www.linkedin.com/in/debracorey 

Twitter https://twitter.com/debracoreyrebel

Do you have any feedback or thoughts on this discussion? If so, please connect with Aoife via the links below and let her know. Aoife would love to hear from you!

Connect with Happier at Work host Aoife O’Brien:

Website: https://happieratwork.ie 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aoifemobrien/ 

Twitter: https://twitter.com/HappierAtWorkHQ 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/happieratwork.ie/ 

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/happieratwork.ie

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCm0FKS19I5qSlFFmkx1YGqA

Deborah, you're absolutely welcome to the Happy at Work podcast. I'm delighted to have you as my guest today. I know we had a chat a good number of months ago now, so I'm looking forward to kind of a catch up chat, let's say, with a secret recording so people can listen in to what we're saying this time. Do Do you wanna let people know a little bit about your background, how you got to doing what you're doing?

Sure. So, Most of my career, I've been an HR person, worked in lots of different amazing organizations, had a fantastic time. And then, at one point in time, about 6 years ago, I got put on gardening leave, which as an American is a very strange concept. You know, I put people on gardening leave, but I'd never been on it. So I got out my bucket list, and on my bucket list was to write a book. And long story short, That's how I wrote my 1st book. And my 1st book was really about here are some tips to help you better. It was in communications.

These are the things I've done wrong throughout my career. Don't ever make those mistakes. Here's a model, that type of thing. So I sort of fell into that, and that sort of opened the door to a new career. I did take my next HR job, but I took it in an organization where the CEO wanted me to write a book with him. So I kept writing, which was lovely. So, you know, zoom ahead. I think it's been 6 years, and I've written 6 books.

No 5 books. Sorry. The 6th one's not out yet.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And I've gone out on my own now. So I I write books, and now I do things like, I do consulting and I do speaking, and my title is chief pay it forward officer. So That sort of says what I'm all about. I pay it forward through my books and

Yeah.

You know, having a chance to talk to you, the 2 of us are paying it forward, so I love it.

I love that. It's just it's such a nice concept, I think, pay it forward. Like, you know, for anyone who doesn't know what that means, maybe I was gonna say go look it up, but We've got you here. What does that mean to you?

Well, if I thought about what I've been doing as I progressed in my career, it was more about sharing and helping either my employees when I was in a company or being out on my own. I'm paying it forward by, You know, I'm very honest about mistakes that I've made in all my books. You know, I'm writing a book now as you know because I interviewed you. My next book that'll be coming out next is on bosses. I'm talking about bad bosses and great bosses. So I've got lots of examples of what I've done wrong. So I pay it forward so that people can learn from my mistakes, But then I also pay it forward by helping people, teaching people things they might not have known or sharing models. So it's really just, you know, being able to pass things on, Then you make it your own Yeah.

And then you pass it on. So it's hopefully, it's a continuum.

I absolutely love that idea. And it's I suppose it's what I'm trying to do. I tried to be really honest on on the podcast about my own career history and mistakes that I've made. If anyone's been listening for a while, you know, I've I've shared numerous times the the mistakes I've made, the issues I've had at work, but I'd I'd love to know if you're willing to share, Deborah, What are the kinda top mistakes that you've made in your career?

I think probably good question. One of my biggest mistakes is that I thought that in order to be great at my job, in order to get ahead, I had to sort of, Not share my whole self and not, you know, spend so much time focusing on the work that I didn't show me as a human being. And And I had one of these moments. It was a great moment. I was leaving a company, and for those I was in the US, so you only work 2 weeks when you give in your notice in the US. Yeah. Into my notice. And for the last 2 weeks, I let my hair down, and I just got out of my office and talked to people and had fun.

And as I was leaving, people are like, Why didn't you act like this before? You know, you're a completely different person. So that to me was a Huge moment. Don't lock don't lock Deborah in the room. She needs to come out and, you know, be a part of things. Probably the next one, and this is sort of evolves into where I am now. I'm sort of known as a rebel because my 2nd book was the rebel playbook. So I also learned, you know, don't just accept things the way they are. You know, I grew up in a, you know, traditional HR type of role.

So, you know, question, challenge, and and all of my books, I try to make sure that when I write these things in the books, it's not just hearing the same things over and over again. You know, I learn when I write a book so that I can be able to, You know, passing. So it's it's really about that whole have a different type of a of a mindset and and do that. And And then I guess the last 1 is just not to

be afraid. You know, I'm doing things

that I've you know, same as you, do things I've never done before. I mean, every time I write a book, I'm like, oh my gosh. Why am I writing this book? And I I announced it on social media so that I have to do it. Yeah.

Yeah. Because if not accountability. Yes.

I would write it. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love that idea of doing things afraid because I think oftentimes we look at other people, and we falsely assume that they've got everything together. And, of course, Deborah is an amazing writer, and, of course, she she has this, amazing book that's coming out. And I think it's, or I know that it's, Maya Angelou who was saying, like, from a imposter syndrome perspective, oh, finally, with every published book that that came out. It was like, finally, the jig is up.

They're gonna realize that that I've I've been totally faking it this whole time. And I think It's something that we can't escape from as humans, and we shouldn't let it get in the way of anything that we do. You know? It's really about focusing on what What it is that you want to do and and do it anyway. Do it afraid. Do it despite feeling like you're a total fraud or despite feeling like You're a beginner or whatever it is, whatever fear you have about doing the thing that you really want to do, I think just try and get beyond that.

Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting because, you know, I speak at events all around the world. As a matter of fact, I'm going to to India to speak to do a keynote. So I get on stages in front of 100, thousands of people. And, you know, people always say to me, oh, I could never do that, or the person after me, you're like, oh my gosh. You look so relaxed. I'm like, no.

I was I get nervous every single time I go on stage, but I was a competitive gymnast. You're always nervous, and that's what few to me, I see it as a positive. I think it's the way you look at life. So I see fear as a way to push me and challenge myself to do things that I'm afraid of. I don't see it as a negative Because it's the fear that, you know, gets you to learn new things. You know, this book that I'm writing now, I interviewed well, as you know, I interviewed 24 thought leaders. I learned so much every single time I I spoke to those people. And if I just sat in my corner and said, I can't write a book on this because I'm not an expert on every aspect of it, I I would have missed this amazing learning opportunity, and and hopefully, the book then can you know, other people can learn through it.

So yeah.

Brilliant. I love that. And, you know, maybe we can dig a bit more into this concept of bad bosses, and I want to to kind of preempt that by saying I've been a boss, and I'm sure I've been a bad boss. And, also, I have had bad bosses. And on a recent podcast episode. As we're recording this, it hasn't been released yet. But as people are listening, it would be from a few weeks ago. And It was, you know, bosses in the media, especially, often get a hard time.

You know, if I listen to the radio at home, for example, they'll talk about bosses. I know what what would the boss think of that, and and there's this kind of persona of the boss. Whereas I'm seeing a different type of leader starting to emerge in conversation that I'm seeing on social media about something that's a lot more positive than just this this kind of persona of a boss. Do you wanna talk to me a little bit about that and maybe the shifts that you've seen before we start talking about this concept of bad bosses.

Sure. So, yeah, it's interesting. And one of the reasons that I wanted to write this book is I do think that there's such a bad bad publicity out there. There's the the extreme. Those horrible bosses that, you know, we hear about in the news and we see in the movies, but there's so many different steps to get you to be that extreme. And it's creating this awareness of the little things that you can do that can be bad so that you don't get to the point. So the book is called Bad Bosses Ruin Lives. And what I wanna do is I wanna get people to the point where, you know, you're learning how to be a great boss so you don't get to that point where you ruin people's lives.

Yeah.

Because, You know, I've made so many little mistakes throughout my career, and so it's all about that creating that awareness as to, you know, What are the different things? So we came up at the end. I can't remember how many I had when when you and I spoke, but we ended up with 10 different types of bad bosses.

Okay.

And they're purposely not horrible names or anything like that. They're everyday type of bad bosses. You know, it's somebody who is, a hoarder, Someone who just doesn't communicate to people. They might not do it intentionally. They might not have communication skills or they might just, think, oh, well, my people don't need to know that, that type of thing or unappreciate or my book my last 2 books that I wrote are on appreciation. And, funnily enough, that is the one I did a survey, and unappreciator is the most common of the 10 types, Which is good and it's bad. Like, I wrote a book on that. It can hopefully help people, but it's bad that I think it was almost, like, 83% of people said they've had a boss who's an unappreciator.

And I'm sure if I went to all of those people, At least half of them would say, oh my gosh. I feel horrible that my people felt that way about me. Mhmm. You know? I didn't realize I wasn't doing that. What do I do now? So that's you know, that to me, those are the kind of people I wanna help. I want the people who are gonna be like, please, please help me. Help me get better. Help me make sure I don't get be a bad boss.

People who are over there ruining lives, do you know what? There's nothing I can do about them. They Yeah. That's just who they are, what they're not gonna listen to to little old me. I saved it a little old me. My husband wrote it with me, and he's 63. So there you go.

It's I think it's a really interesting and important distinction that you've made there, Deborah, that There are some people who are out there who don't really care what the impact that they have on other people are, and they are ruining lives because I've had terrible bosses. And In some cases, yeah, I don't think they really cared. They knew what they were doing. They didn't really care. But then on the other hand, you have these people who want to be an effective boss, but maybe don't realize. And maybe it's a case of, you know, how do we educate people that that they are not a great boss? I'm trying to Pick my words quite carefully here. But, you know, for me, it's a self awareness piece. Maybe people are afraid to give direct feedback.

Maybe it's even hard to do 3 60 feedback because

Yeah.

The assumption being that you're gonna know exactly who wrote what by the way they say it. So any thoughts on on maybe how to direct people to become more self aware and to realize that they are an ineffective boss, let's say.

I think, you know, you used the word awareness. To me, that is the first thing, becoming more more self aware about it. And, I mentioned my husband's writing the the book with me, And he's a technology person. So he's creating an online test. Because I think sometimes it's hard to say, You know, you look at you read the bid on quarter. You read the bid on unappreciated, and you think, oh, that's not me. Sometimes you need some questions that then Say, okay. That's actually you.

Yeah.

So I think it is just, you know, really having those hard conversations with yourself. We were just writing a bit about, some next steps on for certain ones, and, you know, a lot of my questions are, I want you to go back and look at a situation. Because to me, being self reflective is where I learned it the most. I want you to think about a situation where, I don't know, feedback, where a feedback conversation just did not go well. Why didn't it go well? You know, talk to the person. Why did they not think it goes it went well? So I think it's really just being, like, opening the door to be Self aware. And although I said at the beginning that there's some people who just are gonna be a bad boss forever, the title of the book comes from, when I was writing my 2nd book, I told my boss, my coauthor, a story of, A story of of how a bad boss ruined my life. And this boss just made you know, the usual stories made my life a living hell, all that type of stuff.

But I didn't have the courage to go to my boss. And afterwards, after I left and I recovered a little bit, I went back to them, and they didn't know they had done it. Mhmm. And to me, that was a uh-huh. And that's another reason why I wanted to write it is because, You know, they didn't intentionally do it, and I wish I had had the courage to go to them earlier and let them know because then I wouldn't have been impacted in all the other people. So, yeah, it begins with awareness, and then the next one is acceptance and then action. Absolutely.

Yeah. And I I think, let's let me just take a note here. I I think let's assume that people are good. Let us

I always start from there.

Yeah. Let's assume that that it wasn't intentional, that if someone is if you're currently experiencing this right now as you're listening, let's assume that the person who is managing you is not intending to be a bad boss, but they just don't have that self awareness or No one's ever told them what they need to do, or no one's ever told them that they behave in a certain way that's triggering or that is belittling or whatever it might be. I love what you said about this. Well, coming on to the kind of self reflection. But before we talked about self reflection, it was this idea that When you hear a description, you think that's not me, but that's because that's not the image we have of ourselves.

Yeah.

I you know, I'm not a hoarder or I'm not an underappreciator or an unappreciator because I share information, and I tell my team that they're doing I don't want to be that person, essentially, but I love how you said you're gonna create this quiz around it and, you know, people can can take this online test and determined from questions, like, actually, you're, you know and and, again, we've talked about this on the podcast a lot, the intention versus the action, and how we judge other people on their actions because we can't see what their intentions were. Unless they tell us what their intentions are, we we don't know what they are. But we know our own intentions, and we judge ourselves on our intentions and how noble we are. But if that's not showing up in our actions, then,

you

know, there's there's a conflict there, let's say. And so someone's intention might not marry up with this image of someone who is not an amazing boss. So I love this idea. First of all, about self awareness and acceptance that maybe I am the best boss. Maybe I'm not, and then take an action to to address it.

And it's interesting. Even the words we used for the types of bad bosses, we tried not to pick, like like the ones that get a lot of media press are the ones that are, you know, a bit insulting, a bit cheeky, and we I would have loved to, but I thought that's just gonna make somebody put up the the defenses. Oh, that could never be me. With you. Worst one we used was a coercer, which is which has a negative connotation. But we wanted to make it approachable. And What was really fascinating as you were talking, it made me it made me realize this, that, as we were writing the different chapters, like, when we first came up with the 10 types, I thought, well, I'm maybe 2 or 3 of them. I had an example for every single chapter, and it was cathartic.

It actually it actually to me, it was like, I hadn't really thought about it until I was writing these are the things you need to do, and it's like, oh my gosh. That's what I've done before. And I did probably put a good A good amount of those stories in the book because I sort of feel my whole approach to writing and speaking and consulting is is if I show people The human side that I've made these mistakes

Mhmm.

Then it makes it more approachable. You know, like Deborah Corry who's written, you know, it'll be 6 books. Six books and, you know, consults with companies around the world. Oh my god. She was a hoarder? So Yeah. I sort of embarrassed myself, but I do it To try to help other people.

Yeah. I mean, when you mentioned that word, the first thing that sprung to my mind was this negative connotation of Yeah. Hoarding information for a power play. So you're withholding information from people so that people have to come to you if they want that information. That you're not You're not kind of sharing it widely so that everyone knows what they need to know, but rather you're using yourself as a gatekeeper. And it makes, you know, makes you feel good. It makes you feel like you have a bit of power. Like, that's something that I haven't tackled on the podcast yet because I don't know enough about it, and I'd love to talk to someone about this idea of power at work and what it means and power dynamics and, you know, all of that fun stuff.

But I'm still trying to get My head rang it myself, I think. I don't want to pass myself as an expert.

But, you know, I don't think it's all power though because I do think that there's there's sort of Two sides of it. You've got the people who do it from a power, but then there's also people and and I see this in HR all the time. There's people who do it because It's almost the opposite. It's because they wanna protect their people. So that

They don't wanna burden people with

too much of a relationship. Was Kim Scott who does, you've probably read her book. It's called Radical Candor, and she's got this this model, which she was kind enough to let me include in the book. It's this model that talks about, you know, why people don't give feedback. And there's some people who don't give feedback because they're too kind. They're like, Oh, it'll hurt their feelings if I tell them that I can't give them the feedback. And I do think, to some extent, with all of these types of bad bosses, Some sometimes we do it because we think we're doing the right thing for our people

Mhmm.

And it's actually not The right thing for our people. I know hoarder is a perfect example of that one.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's really interesting. Do you wanna talk about some of the other 10 types? So you mentioned already the the unappreciator and the hoarder. What are some of the other types?

Oh goodness.

You need to have a list in front

of us. I've got my post put over there.

Put you I've put you on the spot now. So

That's okay.

Maybe just think of think of, maybe just think

of 1 micromanager. So if I think about, So we I mentioned we did a survey. So we did a global survey, and it was fascinating. And and one of the reasons we did the survey is we thought, if we're gonna talk about these 10 types of bosses, We wanna make sure that it's not just us that think that these these types of bad bosses exist, that other people have heard them. And for each of the 10 types of bad bosses, at least 50% of people, Had these types of of bad bosses. So they they definitely definitely exist out there.

Yeah.

So If I go through I'm just gonna go through high level, and then you tell me which ones that that you like. So you've got the avoider. That was the joke one for that one is that that's the ghost. You've got the ignorer. Oh, no. Sorry. The ignore is the ghost. Then you've got the hoarder, The unappreciator, the pretender, the one who wears the mask, the blocker, the one who gets in the way, The firefighter, go from fire to fire.

Micromanager, that was the 2nd most common one. The blamer, I was Sblamer actually got the least, which I was really pleased about because I think, you know, when I started in the workplace, a blamer was a really common one. You know, like, your your boss would throw you under the bus, but that one was the lowest, and then the coercer. I thought the coercer would be the highest, but it wasn't. It was it was, probably about 3rd. The unappreciator was the was the top one. So, yeah, those are the 10 and then that's the first part of the book, but then The 2nd part of the book, which is twice as big as the first part is okay. Great.

Now what do I do? And that's where we do the 14 building blocks. Okay. What are the building blocks to make you a great boss? So we we do the awareness, get rid of the bad stuff, and then we move on. Okay. Great. Like, you've got micromanager tendencies. I I have that. I have to admit.

I've been a micromanager. Now these are the kinds of things that you can do to get better at it.

Brilliant. And the 14 building blocks, are they universal for everyone, or are they specific to the different types and they may they may overlap across the different types?

Yes. It's a really interesting point because we kept going back and forth on how to do it. So when you take the bad boss test, we're gonna align it to the bad boss. But that doesn't mean though that those are the ones that you need to focus on because there might be other things. So we looked at What are all that we sort of pulled together everything that that we've done from leadership, what we've learned, talking to other people, and we brought it all into 1. So you know how like there's One whole book. I wrote a book on appreciation. There's a whole book about appreciation.

There's tons of books about things like feedback, Tons of books about, like, I call them of the 146 or the, the 6 pack. So those are the ones that are the foundation. So things like empathy, compassion, trust, respect, authenticity, vulnerability. You know, there's, again, Tons of books on all these subjects. So my quest in paying it forward is sort of bring them all together, give you some reasons why it's important to do these, give you some tips. So if it's something that, you know, maybe 4 tips will help you get better, You're done. And then if you wanna learn more, this is where you can go to learn more on those. So that was the whole concept of the book.

Yeah. Brilliant. I love that. Yeah. I love that you know, I said it before, but I love that it's it's, tied in with having a test. So even if you don't recognize yourself in the description, you're You're certainly gonna recognize yourself in the questions that are asked. You know, it helps people to build that self awareness around themselves. I'd love to come back too.

You said that micromanager was one of the top ones, and I know certainly I have been micromanaged, and I'm sure I have been a micromanager in the past as well. I'd love to to dig into that a little bit more detail.

Yeah. And, you know, as a micromanager, I can tell you. So what we tried to do is you talked about what are some of the traps that that you fall into. So, you know, some of the traps for a micromanager are, like, you think that's what your people need. That's what I thought. I thought my job as a manager is to Help my people learn. Help my people do a great job, and I'm gonna hold their hand doing it. Little did I know that that was not the right thing to do, when it comes to that.

Or I don't have the time to teach my people. That wasn't me, but I don't have the time to teach my people, so I'm not gonna do it. So, yeah, there are certain traps that that people fall into when it comes to that. But then also we wanted to talk about the consequences because, again, you know, if you need to convince somebody you know, some people might think I have no problem with micromanaging. There's no Doesn't have any consequences. So then we map out consequences, things like it'll slow people down because they have to come to you all the time. It can lead to low morale. It's like, oh, my boss doesn't even trust and respect me.

You're never gonna you're not people aren't gonna develop If you're a micromanager, it can, stifle creativity and innovation. So it has lots of different Consequences. So, again, we wanna create those light bulb moments for people. But, yeah, micromanager, it's interesting. I was again, I was surprised we didn't it wasn't number 1. It was I think it was number 2, but a lot of us had had had micromanagers. The other thing that was really fascinating Was, when we ask people about the bad bosses, it was multiple. And multiple like, I had some people write to me and say, I had 1 bass that was 1 boss.

It was all 10. So we're not just 1.

All at the same time.

Yeah. Little bit it's Like when you take personality tests, you've got little bits of this and a little bit of that, and I think that's what happens with Bad Bosses because there are a lot of them overlap also.

Yeah.

So, you know, like, micromanager might, overlap with hoarder. There's a lot of similarities between that and even like a coercer. So when you, you know, when you look at the consequences, I felt like a broken record sometimes. It's like, okay. If you do this, it's your people are never gonna learn. And And then in the next bit, if you do this, people aren't ever gonna learn. So

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I'd love to understand a bit more about the avoider because, again, that's That's something I can totally relate to as well that, you know, I I've had, a boss that was completely laissez faire. You just get on with it. No guidance, no instruction whatsoever, which may be as an ignore or an avoider. Not sure, Rich. And I'm sure that I have done it as well in the past.

In fact, I know I have done it. You avoid having difficult conversations because it's too hard and you wanna spare people's feelings. Do you wanna talk to me a little bit more about what you learned about that?

Yeah. And it's interesting. So for each of the, Types of bad bosses. I went out and I asked for stories. So, people gave me stories for those, and then some of them are my own stories. But, you know, one of the stories I include in that one is, you know, I had a boss who was a voyeur, and, you know, I was working on this project for 6 months. And I kept going every every week in our one to ones. You know? How am I doing on this project? How am I doing on this project? Just, you know oh, fine.

Fine. Avoiding me. Just not saying anything. Get to the end of 6 months. What do you think happened? It was all wrong. I had to start all over again. I felt like, shit. You know, the business just lost 6 months.

So yeah. I mean, huge, huge confidence.

That's crazy. But what again, you know, thinking about the psychology behind that. What was your boss's reason? Like, no time or I'm sure Deborah has it sorted. Like, what was I'm trying to think of the positive intent behind it as well rather than the negative intent.

I think for this particular person, they were too busy. They thought I could read their mind.

Ah, okay.

So I think they you know, a 10 minute conversation about the project they thought would be enough that I could that that I could just then do it. You know? And and I hired her as a senior you know, She hired me as a senior level person. Of course, I'll know what to do with this.

Yeah.

But it was a really important lesson for me because the next time around, I didn't let her avoid me. Yeah. Because I saw the pain that it caused. So even though the next project, they went to avoid me again, I made sure upfront I did a better job with expectations. And we do talk about Expectations in the book as well. Things like, you know, make sure that you're clear about what you want because, you know, little things like that can lead to Avoiding.

Yeah. That's something I talk about all the time as well. It's this idea of expectations and setting really clear expectations, especially when it comes quality and time. So, you know, the timepiece is something that I've learned recently. Like, you need to tell people around how long this is going to take. So if you have an expectation that would take 2 hours or if you have an expectation that it should take someone a week on and off and with all of their for their work that they're doing as well, but also the level of quality so that people don't wonder or overdeliver. So if you are, you know, and I always relate this back to my to my previous corporate role where we're delivering presentations to clients. You could spend hours.

Once you have the content, you could spend hours doing transitions, doing animations, and all sorts of stuff that doesn't really add that much value if you're delivering a presentation. People might be like, wow. How did she do that in PowerPoint? But, actually, It is it detracting from the message that you're trying to get across? So, I think, yeah, it's it's so important to set those really clear expectations upfront, and It's a really valuable lesson, I think, Deborah. Like, they obviously trusted you, but you need to set those really clear expectations upfront about what is ex you know? Well, I was gonna say what's expected of you, but what is expected of you by setting those clear expectations. You know? What what is the outcome of this, and what is the expectation in terms of how many times we're gonna meet and how much of a review you're going to do on my work to date. It also reminds me of a boss that I had, and we were talking about a promotion. And I had had a previous boss, and I was in line for promotion under her. And then she left the business but communicated everything she wanted to my new boss, and I thought, brilliant.

This won't take too long now because she's sang my praises and everything. But him being new to the business, new to me, I had to prove myself all over again. So we set up something over the course of 3 months. We met up every week, I think it was, and we had a discussion about, the objectives that I set myself within those 3 months. And if I met those objectives, then I'll be put forward for promotion. Amazing. And we got to the end of those 3 months. And, of course, throughout exactly as you said, how am I doing, how are things going, the end of those 3 months, Oh, I don't think you're ready yet.

And I thought, oh, this that's really strange because that hasn't been communicated in this entire 3 month period. Not once Was I told that I'm not on track, that I need to up my game in some area? When I questioned him about that, he said I'd have to check. Sorry. He said that he would have to check with the job description to exactly see where I wasn't really up to speed or up to scratch or or whatever it might have been, so that absolutely infuriated me. But I think it's it's soon. It's an important lesson. As a manager, you need to really clearly communicate people what you're expecting of them on what they're going to get as a result. So if you're setting these, goals for people, you need to let them know whether they're on track with those girls.

You need to communicate regularly so that when it comes to delivering that type of feedback, it's not a complete and utter surprise all of a sudden to learn that, actually, no. We don't think you're ready now. As it happens, his boss came to me and said, we do we actually do think you're ready. I've seen how you're performing. So, anyway, that's a a story for another day. But, back to this idea, yeah, the different and I think that, to me, that kind of falls under the the building blocks. You need to be able to set really clear expectations. Do Do you want to share some of the other, maybe, more generic building blocks that apply across a few different areas?

Yeah. I mean, I think the the the 6 pack apply Across all of them. So no matter if you're, you know, avoider, ignore, even forget about being bad boss, even a good boss, great boss, you know, things like being Empathetic, vulnerable. The one that I the the last of the 6 is trust, and that was an interesting one because as we were writing that one, It just it was just one of those moments how everything leads to trust.

Mhmm.

So or I'm sorry. Trust leads to everything the other way around. So if If you don't have trust, nothing else is is going to work whatsoever. And I I shared a story of how, I, was rolling out a new benefit program at a organization, and I was going around doing roadshows and standing on stage and telling everybody about this great new benefit. Everywhere I went, I had, like, thank you so much. We love this. This is great. And then I went to one of our, manufacturing sites, and I stood on the stage, And I can remember like it was yesterday.

The whole back row stood up with chairs over their head and started shaking them at me saying, go home. Go home. And just, I I don't know how I got through that presentation, but afterwards, I went up to the MD. I'm like, what is going on? And he said, I'm I'm really sorry, but our employees just don't Trust. There's no trust in in anybody in senior senior leadership. So, you know, as soon as you got on stage, they wouldn't listen to you because they don't trust you. So I had 5 more sessions to do there. So I learned the important lesson is that I went I got there early.

And as people were sitting in the back because they were the troublemakers. I got to know them so that they could trust me. And I asked them questions, and I told them about me so they could trust me. But, yeah, I think trust is, like, So, so important. You know, authentic and vulnerable. As a leader these days, you know, you have to You have to do that in everything. You know, be authentic in how you give feedback and you give appreciation, how you develop people. They all they all roll into, into the others.

But then the other types of, of building blocks, the other 8, I think I've touched on a couple of them. The the other 8 from besides the 6 are things like, They shouldn't be a surprise. If I asked you, you'd guess all of these. Listening, obviously, that's a building block as a as a as a boss, as a manager. Communications, being able to Provide communications, feedback, appreciation, development and coaching. We separated them out because they are 2 different ways to help people grow. Empowerment, that's like the opposite of the of the micromanager and the coercer. And then inspiration, which sort of Talks about being purpose driven and making sure that you're a purpose driven, leader.

So, yeah, those are the 8. So it's a lot to jam into 1 model, And, interesting in the introduction to the building blocks, I was very honest, and I said, you know, I know it's too much. I'm a big believer that you keep things short, Sweet. So you can remember it. I said, but we couldn't get rid of any of them. There was not one because we said, if we don't have enough to say about it, it's not going in the book. And at the end of writing, every single section, we're like, oh my gosh. That's good.

No. We have to share that. We have to. So I do apologize if there's 14 of them, but You don't have to do them all at once. Yeah. Like anything. You pick the ones that are gonna make the biggest difference.

But but also, Deborah, it's not as if people are not doing any of these things. So it could be that they're listening, but they're they need to listen more or that they're communicating, but they need communicate more or that they're having development conversations, but, actually, they need to have them a bit more strategically or think a bigger picture of what does this mean for this person's individual development even if it's not in this com even if it's not in this company. What does that mean? What does the kinda bigger picture, it looked like. And inspiration, being an inspiration. So leading others and being a that role model for other people, I think, is is so important as well. And I think

I was gonna say, I think the thread that rolls through all of them, and that's why I think it makes sense to learn a little bit about each of them, is just to remind ourselves, I mean, what's their 5 generations in the workplace? So Yeah. 5 generations, I'm sure each of us are manage you know, I'm I'm I'm in the UK, but I'm American. Each of us are managing people of different, not just ages, but nationalities and so much diversity. So, you know, just because you can develop 1 person or you can show appreciation to 1 person doesn't mean that it's gonna work for everyone. You know, I've been writing this book with my my husband, and I can tell you I've been every one of the 10 bad bosses throughout the process of writing with him Because I've never written a book with him before. I've never worked with him before. You know, micromanager came out, quarter. Yes.

I mean, they all came out. And, again, I think that's really human. I think it's like, do you know what? They're gonna come out from time to time based off of, like, when I was, You know, the pressure to get it to the editor. Some of those bad bosses came out or when he pushed me in ways that my employees didn't push me, they're gonna come out. So, you know, for me, it's the kind of book I'm gonna refer to over, oh, gosh. I'm going into hoarder again. What do I need to remind myself? Or Yeah. Yeah.

I'm being a coercer. Yeah. We won't get his his his office is over there, but we won't get him on the call.

I think it's it's It's reassuring, Deborah, that even you, having written the book, will need to refer back to it because I think sometimes when we're trapped in in our own thinking and being really emotional about it is that we it's it's so handy to have a framework of, okay, what steps do I need to take? I'm going into this mode. What steps do I need to take? And I think you raised a really important distinction there that it's fine for business as usual, it's absolutely fine, and I'm sure everyone's a great boss and whatever, but it's it's when things are difficult, that's when these traits maybe come out, and you need to recognize those in yourself so maybe distinguishing between how you behave, how you behave when you are in business as usual kind of normal operational mode versus something maybe happens outside of work that causes distress for you or something happens in work that triggers you in some way or it's just a stressful or difficult situation that you have to deal with. It's then those kinds of traits might start coming out.

Absolutely. And I I I share a story of, when I was new to being a boss. I say new, but you know what? It still comes out every once in a while. I had certain situations that were really stressful to me, and, my alter ego, Debbie, today. So we named her. Yeah. So my my team named her Debbie, and we used to put a sign on my door or, that said, Beware Debbie is here. Enter at your own risk.

And I would put it there saying, you know what, guys? I'm really stressed. I you really do not wanna come near me right now. Let me just get out of this and then move on. And I said it just again to show the human side. You know, none of us are perfect. It's trying to figure out How can I, first of all, not bring Debbie out, which I got much better at, but she still comes out? How can I, you know, keep Debbie locked up, Or can I at least let my team know? And and to be honest with you, they thought it was funny. They did. So instead of it turning into something where I would have, like, Really hurt people's feelings.

Mhmm.

It turned into something that was just a joke in the office.

And Yeah.

There's Debbie again. I'm not going in. Are you going in?

It's such a nice idea, I think from from the perspective of turning it into that joke that you can laugh about, but also Having the self awareness to know that you're in that situation and letting people know that this is what's going on for you so that they know what to expect. But then at the same time, sometimes people come to you when they don't really need to come to you. And if Debbie is out, then maybe they to try and solve the problems on their own and and develop themselves and realize that they can actually solve this problem without actually having to come to you. And I have heard that before. Just just being upfront, being open about the fact that this is what's going on. It shows that you're human. It shows that you're under a lot of stress at the moment. And if you do retaliate, that is why.

By or if you do go into micromanager mode or hoarder or whatever mode you go into, there is an underlying reason why you've done that.

Yeah. And it it fits under vulnerability, that one that one building block of vulnerability. And and, you know, we all know as as as bosses that our job is to role model it. So, you know, let's be real. Even though our employees aren't bosses, they bring out these bad boss traits themselves.

Mhmm.

So, you know, by us being vulnerable and us, you know, communicating, it's showing our people, you know what? We're human. We make mistakes. When you've got a bad day, you do the same thing. So, you know, to prevent them. And also, you know, if you think about a lot of your bad boss traits, and I I think I said this at one point in time, I can point to the person that that that actually not made me a bad boss, but I learned it from them.

Yeah. Because we all learned from

the bosses.

Same. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. One of my very early bosses. Absolutely. Yeah.

They see us.

And I can see her coming out when I'm under pressure or when I'm dealing with people who are just not doing not doing what it what it was how you explain them to do. But yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And it's I think it's having that awareness, but also move trying to move beyond that as well. Deborah, I absolutely loved this conversation. The question I ask everyone who comes on to the Happier at Work podcast, what does being happier at work mean to you?

So, if anyone has ever heard me talk, I always do things in threes. Sorry about that. So for me, there's 3 parts of what makes me happy. One is What I do. So am I making a difference? Am I paying it forward? That's like happiness for me. Like, I've got a huge smile just in this conversation today. How I do it? Am I enjoying the way that we do the work? You know, like, is it free flowing, autonomous? Are we getting creative? So the how, And then also how I feel. And those are the 2 I neglected before, but happiness to me is trying to have that that that balanced feeling and and feeling like I'm doing a great job at work.

I'm also doing a great job with my family and myself personally. So those 3 things are happiness.

Brilliant. I love that. If people want to find out more about you, about your upcoming book, and your previous books, what's the best way they can do that?

LinkedIn. Connect with me on LinkedIn. But then, I've got a website, debcohr.com where, in the Being a pay it forward person, there's lots of free information. So there's, blogs. There's free free, downloads. When the book comes out, I'll have survey there, and I'll have a free excerpt for it. So, yeah, probably those 2 places are the best best ways to to see it.

Brilliant. Thank you so much. Absolutely loved this conversation today, talking about former bosses, talking about myself as a boss, and learning loads as well about the different bad boss types. So, would absolutely love to thank you for your time and this conversation today.

Thank you so much.