I am joined on this show by Kristin Keffeler as we discuss the myth of the silver spoon. This happens to be the title of Kristin's excellent new book which you can find out more about here

In this really engaging conversation with Kristin we hear about her own story of growing up in a wealthy family.

Kristin discusses how our relationship with wealth is not the same as our relationship with money and that there are various forms of clutter that, if we can address, we can transform those relationships and become our true selves.

Useful Links 

You can find out more about Kristin by connecting with her on Linked In or by visiting her homepage here

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www.fambizpodcast.com/support

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If what I have spoken about in the show resonates and you want to discuss how I can help you and your family business drop me an email: russ@familybusinesspartnership.com or head over to www.familybusinesspartnership.com

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Russ Haworth: 00:00:59

everyone and welcome to this week's episode

Russ Haworth: 00:01:01

of the Family Business Podcast.

Russ Haworth: 00:01:04

We are continuing our look this week at some of the myths that

Russ Haworth: 00:01:09

exist around family business, family enterprise, and family wealth.

Russ Haworth: 00:01:14

And in particular, we are gonna be looking at the myth of the silver

Russ Haworth: 00:01:17

spoon this week, and I'm very fortunate to be joined by our.

Russ Haworth: 00:01:23

Kristin Kefler, who has literally written the book on the myth of the Silver Spoon.

Russ Haworth: 00:01:28

So Kristin, welcome to the show.

Russ Haworth: 00:01:30

It's great to have you.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:01:32

Thank you.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:01:33

I'm excited to be here.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:01:34

Russ.

Russ Haworth: 00:01:35

And before we get into the detail around your book, which is

Russ Haworth: 00:01:40

called The Myth of the Silver Spoon, it would be great for our audience

Russ Haworth: 00:01:43

to hear a little bit more about who you are, your background, how you

Russ Haworth: 00:01:47

came to be doing what you're doing.

Russ Haworth: 00:01:49

And then we can delve into some of the topics you cover in, uh, in your book.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:01:54

Yeah, absolutely.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:01:55

Um, so I am, um, I am a family, um, business and family wealth consultant

Kristin Keffeler: 00:02:02

who started in this industry officially, um, just shy of two decades ago.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:02:07

Uh, my, the, my entry point into this work is all through human capital.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:02:13

It's all about family dynamics.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:02:15

Specifically when I started this work, and I'll, I'll share my story of how

Kristin Keffeler: 00:02:19

I got here, um, in just a minute.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:02:21

But when I started this work, it was really focused on the rising generation.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:02:26

My heart was really in the space of, um, supporting the rising generation.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:02:30

At that time, we didn't even have that terminology.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:02:33

So it was, uh, as a next gen coach really supporting them to try, um, to.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:02:39

To find, not only find their place at the, the, uh, decision making table

Kristin Keffeler: 00:02:44

in their family, but even, I would say more importantly, was the work that

Kristin Keffeler: 00:02:48

we did, that I did with them around, um, identifying like who they were

Kristin Keffeler: 00:02:53

as, as an individual separate from the family business and from family wealth.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:02:57

And what were the core elements?

Kristin Keffeler: 00:03:00

Who they were that they wanted to bring forward into the world,

Kristin Keffeler: 00:03:02

and what was getting in the way of their ability to do that.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:03:05

Um, and then we layered on the skills that they needed to be successful.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:03:09

So not only personal vision and motivation, but also, um, the skills

Kristin Keffeler: 00:03:14

around, um, you know, how to, how to make, how to understand the financial

Kristin Keffeler: 00:03:19

landscape, understanding trust in estates in the vernacular, so beneficiary

Kristin Keffeler: 00:03:23

skills, um, financial skills, et cetera.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:03:26

So that's where I started.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:03:28

Ultimately, um, my work has expanded to include whole family dynamics

Kristin Keffeler: 00:03:32

and whole family enterprise systems.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:03:35

Um, but I come to this work from a really.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:03:37

Honest place in my own journey.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:03:39

Um, my dad, I'm, I'm a second gen in my family.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:03:43

My dad, um, was a successful entrepreneur and the last company that he started, he

Kristin Keffeler: 00:03:48

actually started with my oldest brother.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:03:50

Um, I'm the youngest of four, so my oldest brother's seven years older than me.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:03:54

And at this point in time, my oldest brother had been working

Kristin Keffeler: 00:03:57

with my dad for quite a few years, since he was a teenager.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:04:00

. Um, and I, he's my, my oldest brother at this point in time was like 25 or 26.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:04:05

I was getting ready to go to college.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:04:07

Um, and they started.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:04:09

This business that was just sort of right idea at the right time, economic wins at

Kristin Keffeler: 00:04:14

their back and the right things happened.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:04:16

And ultimately, um, in a very short order.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:04:20

My dad's vision was not to create a, a multi-generational family business.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:04:24

My dad's vision was to build something and take it public, and that's what he did.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:04:29

So in, in very short order.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:04:31

Really on the relative scale.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:04:33

They, um, they did that.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:04:35

They had a great team.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:04:36

They built a great company.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:04:38

And by the time I was graduating from college, they, um, had taken

Kristin Keffeler: 00:04:42

the company public, had a second public offering sometime later,

Kristin Keffeler: 00:04:45

and then ultimately sold it.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:04:47

Um, so there were these series of wealth events that happened, um,

Kristin Keffeler: 00:04:51

in succession, right at a really.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:04:53

Um, important time in my own development.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:04:56

I was exiting college thinking about what was next for myself.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:04:59

Um, and, and while I had always, I had been raised with my dad, had

Kristin Keffeler: 00:05:05

always been financially successful, and, and I honestly never really

Kristin Keffeler: 00:05:09

thought about money, which is obviously a, a privilege in itself.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:05:13

Um, There were these moments in, as in, in my, in my dad's, um, business story

Kristin Keffeler: 00:05:21

and his business evolution that created these inflection points in our family

Kristin Keffeler: 00:05:25

wealth story and those things for me.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:05:29

Um, Really sort of kicked up a lot of emotional stuff and, and some

Kristin Keffeler: 00:05:34

questions about, um, a dual identity for me, like, well, am I the, like,

Kristin Keffeler: 00:05:40

um, am I the, the young adult who gets to fly off to New York and go

Kristin Keffeler: 00:05:44

on on fancy shopping sprees and, and brought away spree with my parents?

Kristin Keffeler: 00:05:49

Or am I the public, the, the young adult who's getting a master's

Kristin Keffeler: 00:05:52

in public health and is really wants to go into public service.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:05:56

Those two different peer groups, the two d like, it was, it was

Kristin Keffeler: 00:06:00

very much a dual reality for me.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:06:01

And I didn't know how to, to integrate my family story with who

Kristin Keffeler: 00:06:07

I was as an individual and, um, had not thought at all about money or

Kristin Keffeler: 00:06:12

wealth or identity in that context.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:06:15

Um, so there was, there was some emotional.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:06:19

Cloudiness for me.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:06:20

And on top of that, um, my, my parents were very progressive in

Kristin Keffeler: 00:06:24

thinking about family meetings.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:06:25

It's, it was at a time that that wasn't a really common

Kristin Keffeler: 00:06:28

thing, um, that I'm aware of.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:06:30

And I, we were certainly the only family I knew that was like gathering

Kristin Keffeler: 00:06:34

together to talk about estate structures and financial structures.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:06:38

And, um, and we started having these meetings and, um, I found that, Time and

Kristin Keffeler: 00:06:44

time again, I really wanted to understand what was happening and I'd go into that

Kristin Keffeler: 00:06:48

meeting, like ready to learn, and I would come outta that meeting just as

Kristin Keffeler: 00:06:54

confused as I went into the meeting.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:06:56

I didn't understand the terminology, I didn't understand the flow charts.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:07:00

I didn't understand how they impacted me or what I, what

Kristin Keffeler: 00:07:03

questions I could be asking.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:07:05

Um, and, and little by little the dawning for me was, I needed to, I

Kristin Keffeler: 00:07:12

needed to get, um, I needed to get some support to understand what was

Kristin Keffeler: 00:07:16

happening and I needed to be able to, to get in the driver's seat.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:07:20

Um, and that ended up leading me my own journey, my own, um, seeking to

Kristin Keffeler: 00:07:26

understand led me to ultimately this work that I feel really privileged to get to

Kristin Keffeler: 00:07:32

do with rising gen and their families.

Russ Haworth: 00:07:35

Yeah.

Russ Haworth: 00:07:36

Um, there's a couple of things I want to, to pick out of your, uh, introduction

Russ Haworth: 00:07:41

again, before we get into the, the sort of main topic of, of the show.

Russ Haworth: 00:07:45

The, the first one is you we're gonna be talking about your book, which you, you

Russ Haworth: 00:07:50

share some of your experiences within that book, and one of them relates to

Russ Haworth: 00:07:54

that timing college, where you get a car.

Russ Haworth: 00:07:57

And that story I, I found really interesting.

Russ Haworth: 00:07:59

I was reading through because it kind of highlights what

Russ Haworth: 00:08:01

you were just saying about.

Russ Haworth: 00:08:04

Where does my identity live?

Russ Haworth: 00:08:06

Could you just give the, the audience a bit of a feel for,

Russ Haworth: 00:08:09

for that particular story?

Kristin Keffeler: 00:08:11

Yeah.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:08:11

I, I love that story too, and because it, it, it does capture this, this

Kristin Keffeler: 00:08:17

duality of experience that as an 18 year old, I couldn't, I didn't even

Kristin Keffeler: 00:08:23

have like the conscious awareness to, to know it was happening.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:08:28

It was, it's only been upon reflection as a, a more, You know, aware

Kristin Keffeler: 00:08:35

adult that I could see the duality.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:08:37

But the, so the story is, um, when I was getting ready to graduate from high school

Kristin Keffeler: 00:08:41

and go to college, my, um, my, I, I got a, a nearly full right academic scholarship

Kristin Keffeler: 00:08:48

to a private school that was my top pick.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:08:51

Um, and my dad said to me, he.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:08:54

You're saving me a lot of money, and so I think we should get you a new car

Kristin Keffeler: 00:08:58

and what, you know, what do you want?

Kristin Keffeler: 00:09:00

And so we, you know, I, I played with some ideas of what I wanted

Kristin Keffeler: 00:09:04

and I finally landed on this.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:09:06

Um, this little sports car, little two door coop, sports car.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:09:10

And um, and we went and picked it out and it was brand new.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:09:13

And like, it was, it, like, I can still smell it and I can still feel

Kristin Keffeler: 00:09:19

what it felt like to sit down in it.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:09:20

And it like, had this great stereo and it was like, you know, way too powerful

Kristin Keffeler: 00:09:26

of a car for someone who powerful.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:09:28

Like the engine was powerful.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:09:29

And it was like a, it was a statement of a car.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:09:33

And I loved it.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:09:34

And you know, I loved driving it off the lot and, um, and, but there were

Kristin Keffeler: 00:09:38

still a couple weeks left of school and so I went to go drive it to school.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:09:42

I went to a public high school in our neighborhood and I, um, as I'm driving

Kristin Keffeler: 00:09:47

it to school, I realize like the student parking lot is a danger zone for.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:09:52

Any car.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:09:53

And so I was like, well, okay, I'm not gonna take this car

Kristin Keffeler: 00:09:56

into the student parking lot.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:09:57

I'm gonna go, I'll drive it to the teacher's parking lot, but

Kristin Keffeler: 00:10:00

students aren't allowed to, to park in the teacher's parking lot.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:10:03

So I was already like getting very uncomfortable with that idea, but

Kristin Keffeler: 00:10:07

I decided I was gonna do it anyway.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:10:09

And I went in a, went over and I drove into the teacher's parking lot and

Kristin Keffeler: 00:10:12

I parked the car and I, I can still viscerally feel the sinking feeling in

Kristin Keffeler: 00:10:18

my stomach when I parked the car and got.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:10:21

I felt like, oh my gosh, I don't like, I shouldn't be doing this.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:10:26

Two, I I looked around and I was like, this car is nicer than the

Kristin Keffeler: 00:10:30

cars in the teacher's parking lot.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:10:32

And I just had this sort of crummy feeling.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:10:35

I didn't feel, I didn't feel proud and like, look at me.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:10:39

I felt like, oh shoot, I'm, I'm gonna be getting attention for this and it

Kristin Keffeler: 00:10:43

may not be the kind of attention I want.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:10:45

And I remember slinking into.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:10:48

To the front of the building for the last couple weeks of school

Kristin Keffeler: 00:10:51

with the same feeling and, and, you know, really not processing

Kristin Keffeler: 00:10:55

it, not knowing how to process it.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:10:57

Having no place to where I would've even thought about taking that, that

Kristin Keffeler: 00:11:02

experience and saying, you know, Hey, I'm like, I'm, I'm excited and I, I feel

Kristin Keffeler: 00:11:08

really honored that my dad is celebrating this academic scholarship with this

Kristin Keffeler: 00:11:12

awesome gift and I feel really weird.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:11:17

I have this material object that, that other people are gonna make an assessment

Kristin Keffeler: 00:11:22

about me based purely on this thing.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:11:25

And I had no way to understand those two things were happening or anyone

Kristin Keffeler: 00:11:29

to talk to, to help me reconcile that.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:11:32

Um, and it's, like I said, it's only been upon reflection that I could even see

Kristin Keffeler: 00:11:36

that as a, as a really defining moment.

Russ Haworth: 00:11:39

Mm.

Russ Haworth: 00:11:40

Yeah, and I think that, that, as you say, the, um, the story highlights

Russ Haworth: 00:11:45

the duality of that, your sort of reality and what you've been able to.

Russ Haworth: 00:11:51

Work on overtime to then think, actually there's other rising gen who are in

Russ Haworth: 00:11:56

the similar position having a similar experiences with the similar feelings.

Russ Haworth: 00:12:00

And would it be fair to say part of that is behind the

Russ Haworth: 00:12:03

motivation for writing the book?

Russ Haworth: 00:12:05

Yeah.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:12:07

For sure.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:12:08

Uh, for sure, a hundred percent.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:12:09

I feel like, um, you know, there's the, there's my own lived experience

Kristin Keffeler: 00:12:15

and then there's the, the nearly two decades of work that I've done where

Kristin Keffeler: 00:12:20

I've had the opportunity to be in intimate conversations with rising gen.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:12:26

Where, where, when?

Kristin Keffeler: 00:12:28

Time after time.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:12:29

After time when, when I will open up the conversation about this idea

Kristin Keffeler: 00:12:34

of a re a relationship with money, a relationship with wealth or identity that

Kristin Keffeler: 00:12:38

gets enmeshed in, in money and wealth.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:12:42

When we first open that up and there's, and I give, we give language to what

Kristin Keffeler: 00:12:48

someone is feeling for the first time.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:12:50

I've had this experience where there's this sense of.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:12:56

Being seen that, that the rising gen I I'm sitting with feels seen for the first

Kristin Keffeler: 00:13:02

time, maybe not, maybe for the first time, but they feel seen in this, in this little

Kristin Keffeler: 00:13:06

slice where it's like they, they're, they now have the opportunity to start

Kristin Keffeler: 00:13:11

to untangle some of the things that have felt tangled because they didn't actually

Kristin Keffeler: 00:13:15

have language and awareness as to why.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:13:17

What was feeling tangled, but there was this sense of stuckness and, um, and

Kristin Keffeler: 00:13:23

so ultimately the drive for me around writing the book was that, um, That I,

Kristin Keffeler: 00:13:29

I wanted to give voice and a voice to the, to this clutter, this psychological

Kristin Keffeler: 00:13:36

clutter that can, that can so easily, and in my experience so commonly

Kristin Keffeler: 00:13:40

build up in the lives of rising gen.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:13:43

But it is, it is one of those things that we just really don't talk about, um, or

Kristin Keffeler: 00:13:48

give name to one because money is a, is a really sort of subconscious taboo topic.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:13:55

Culturally anyway, and by extension wealth is definitely something that

Kristin Keffeler: 00:13:59

we have a tangled relationship with.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:14:01

And, um, and so often the, the rising John I talk to will say, well, no one

Kristin Keffeler: 00:14:06

wants to hear the problems of a rich kid.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:14:07

Like this may be happening for me.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:14:10

I can now name my, my own struggle and pain, but like, I, there's no safe place

Kristin Keffeler: 00:14:16

for me to surface this up and then try to really look at it and heal it because

Kristin Keffeler: 00:14:21

like, I'm gonna say, I'm like a jerk.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:14:23

If I, if I tell anyone that I'm struggling in any, in any way and, um,

Kristin Keffeler: 00:14:30

and I really wanted to, I wanted to like let in some fresh air into all of that

Kristin Keffeler: 00:14:36

and say like, yeah, can we acknowledge that we have culturally that we have,

Kristin Keffeler: 00:14:40

um, a kind of entangled relationship with money and wealth and, and can

Kristin Keffeler: 00:14:45

we acknowledge that it's, it's also.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:14:50

Real that those, um, people who have been raised in families of wealth and

Kristin Keffeler: 00:14:56

influence, where there's a significant enterprise and significant resources,

Kristin Keffeler: 00:15:01

that they too are human and that they too may have problems and they may

Kristin Keffeler: 00:15:04

actually have some unique problems, uh, and unique challenges because of

Kristin Keffeler: 00:15:09

the situation they've been raised in.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:15:11

And because we have this sort of tangled relationship with money and wealth

Kristin Keffeler: 00:15:15

that we don't give space for that to.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:15:17

True as well for that reality for them to be true.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:15:21

And um, and by pointing at that and then being able to say like, yeah, there's

Kristin Keffeler: 00:15:27

a pathway out of, we can clear that clutter, that psychological clutter.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:15:33

And when we do, we are, we, there is, um, an opportunity for these rising gen

Kristin Keffeler: 00:15:40

to one, not only, um, tap into their own purpose and the ability to self-actualize.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:15:47

Um, which is a beautiful individual pursuit, but that self-actualization can

Kristin Keffeler: 00:15:53

have significant ripple impact because these are people who have access to

Kristin Keffeler: 00:15:58

financial resources and social networks.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:16:01

And when they are, when they are firmly grounded in who they are and

Kristin Keffeler: 00:16:05

have confidence in that and have a vision in the world, their ability

Kristin Keffeler: 00:16:10

to amplify impact is significant and that feels really inspiring.

Russ Haworth: 00:16:17

Absolutely.

Russ Haworth: 00:16:17

And I'd like to, to dig in a little bit more around the taboo of, of

Russ Haworth: 00:16:22

wealth and, and money, but before we do though, and you mentioned

Russ Haworth: 00:16:26

in, um, the, the conversation we've had so far around the language, I

Russ Haworth: 00:16:31

think it's important we distinguish between you, you mentioned it, the.

Russ Haworth: 00:16:35

It, it used to be kind of next gen and, and actually the term rising

Russ Haworth: 00:16:39

generation has come along and, and much better fits what you and I

Russ Haworth: 00:16:43

would understand to be rising gen.

Russ Haworth: 00:16:45

But it might be a phrase that others haven't come across.

Russ Haworth: 00:16:48

So I think it would be useful to, to clarify what we mean by rising

Russ Haworth: 00:16:53

generation, because typically it's senior gen, next gen and so on.

Russ Haworth: 00:16:57

So if you could just spend a couple of minutes, um, summarizing that

Russ Haworth: 00:17:00

for us, that'd be really useful.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:17:02

Yeah, absolutely.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:17:03

The, so, you know, typically we have referred to the the, um, Following

Kristin Keffeler: 00:17:12

generation, so not the leading generation or not the wealth creating generation.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:17:16

We've, we've referred to every generation after that as the next gen.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:17:20

And so that could be a, a second gen or third gen or fourth gen.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:17:24

And the problem with that language, and we know that language is

Kristin Keffeler: 00:17:28

powerful language creates the map of our understanding of the world.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:17:32

So it's not a small thing to.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:17:37

Language isn't, uh, it's not inconsequential.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:17:40

It matters how we name things because that's then how we frame things.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:17:45

And so the idea of NextGen, what's problematic is that it, it puts

Kristin Keffeler: 00:17:50

someone in a category that is always in relationship to the wealth creating

Kristin Keffeler: 00:17:54

generation to, to what came before them.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:17:57

It, it doesn't, it's not even.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:18:00

Generations that came before that.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:18:01

It's not even just about family lineage in general.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:18:03

It's about this specific person or this specific couple.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:18:08

Um, in some cases where it's like grandma and grandpa or my mom and dad, they are

Kristin Keffeler: 00:18:13

the people who are like, they really put the stamp of who our family is and

Kristin Keffeler: 00:18:16

everybody else is in relationship to that.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:18:19

And, um, What's prob so, so it's problematic cuz then you're always sort

Kristin Keffeler: 00:18:24

of orbiting the wealth creator and, and, um, and finding identity separate

Kristin Keffeler: 00:18:30

from that is, um, is more difficult.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:18:33

The rising generation, on the other hand, is a terminology

Kristin Keffeler: 00:18:36

that really has to do with.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:18:39

Less about, um, relationship to the wealth creator and more about a psychology.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:18:45

It's about a psychology.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:18:46

The way that, um, that it's described in, um, the voices of the rising generation,

Kristin Keffeler: 00:18:51

which I think is the first place that it was ever defined, um, is that the

Kristin Keffeler: 00:18:56

rising generation is really about.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:18:59

The anybody in the family could be a spouse.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:19:02

It, it could be, um, you know, cousins.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:19:05

It's like whoever is in the, in this family who has adopted a psychology of

Kristin Keffeler: 00:19:12

growth and learning and a willingness to, to lean into the reality of being in

Kristin Keffeler: 00:19:18

a family like this and, and be committed both to, to individuation and, and,

Kristin Keffeler: 00:19:24

and self growth as well as to figuring.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:19:28

Um, what it looks like to, to be in relationship with a significant family.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:19:33

And it's really about a psychology and a willingness to grow

Kristin Keffeler: 00:19:37

rather than an orientation to a singular person of significance.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:19:42

And so in that, it gives a much bigger space for people to

Kristin Keffeler: 00:19:45

find their way and their path.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:19:47

And it's, and it also gives space and invites the idea of growth

Kristin Keffeler: 00:19:52

and individuation rather than, orientation to a single person.

Russ Haworth: 00:19:58

Yeah.

Russ Haworth: 00:19:59

Perfect.

Russ Haworth: 00:20:00

I think that's a great way to, to for if the audience haven't heard of the, the

Russ Haworth: 00:20:05

term rising gen to, to summarize that.

Russ Haworth: 00:20:08

Perfect.

Russ Haworth: 00:20:10

You mentioned about the kind of taboo topic of wealth and money and

Russ Haworth: 00:20:16

it in some cases it's almost like we want, we would rather talk about

Russ Haworth: 00:20:21

anything else than that kind of with our family and, and those around us.

Russ Haworth: 00:20:25

But why do you think that is?

Russ Haworth: 00:20:26

What is it about money and wealth in particular that seems

Russ Haworth: 00:20:30

to be difficult for us to talk?

Kristin Keffeler: 00:20:33

Yeah, I, you know, I, I probably, there's probably some.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:20:39

You know, historical anthropologist or something that would be able to,

Kristin Keffeler: 00:20:43

to have a, a, some great research grounded response to how did our

Kristin Keffeler: 00:20:49

relationship with money evolve.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:20:51

Um, and I'm not that person, but my, my observation, my, my wondering is that,

Kristin Keffeler: 00:20:57

um, you know, when we, that, that when money, so when we, when we first started,

Kristin Keffeler: 00:21:06

Interacting like people used to exchange goods and goods and services, right.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:21:11

Is it was a very, that barter system was a very direct kind of like, I can

Kristin Keffeler: 00:21:16

give you this, you can give me that.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:21:17

And in that, there's always a, the virtuous cycle of being connected

Kristin Keffeler: 00:21:22

to your own ability to contribute.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:21:25

Like if I can weave and you have cows, then I.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:21:30

We can exchange things that we both need, and there's a, there's a strong connection

Kristin Keffeler: 00:21:35

to that feeling of contribution.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:21:38

As soon as, you know, you think about like, um, the industrial

Kristin Keffeler: 00:21:43

revolution and, and the mechanization of, of the, of goods.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:21:48

And then suddenly we're in a situation.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:21:51

Now money, you can create money at a much greater scale than people need to use it.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:21:56

It's not just even a stand in directly for goods and services now.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:21:59

It's something that you can amass.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:22:01

And so in, in my hypothesis, like that's a, that is a time when we likely

Kristin Keffeler: 00:22:08

started really creating, um, Money became something that was less tangible.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:22:14

Wealth certainly became something less tangible.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:22:16

And where we weren't connected, there was the opportunity to not be

Kristin Keffeler: 00:22:19

so connected to our contribution.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:22:22

Like, this is what I do and this is what I receive in return.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:22:26

Um, and that's the time when multi-generational wealth

Kristin Keffeler: 00:22:29

started to become a thing where you get even more disconnected

Kristin Keffeler: 00:22:32

from the input and the output.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:22:34

Um, and, and so I think there's probably lots of fingers

Kristin Keffeler: 00:22:39

that have created this, this.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:22:42

Way that we are collectively with money, um, and with wealth.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:22:47

And we can, I, we can talk in a minute.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:22:49

I, I keep using those terms distinctly and I define them differently.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:22:53

Um, so maybe we can talk about that in a minute.

Russ Haworth: 00:22:54

Mm.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:22:55

one of the things that, um, I think happens is that money can end,

Kristin Keffeler: 00:23:04

uh, By extension wealth can become because we don't have a really clean relationship

Kristin Keffeler: 00:23:10

with inputs and outputs and what it is, and, and like there, there's just a lot

Kristin Keffeler: 00:23:15

of clutter there that that money can become a stand and it can become a proxy.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:23:20

We have let it become a proxy for other human needs like love or security.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:23:28

, um, or, yeah, like so many human needs, the acceptance, like there's

Kristin Keffeler: 00:23:34

this way that, that instead of moving into that human emotion and figuring

Kristin Keffeler: 00:23:40

out like, how do I get this need met?

Kristin Keffeler: 00:23:42

Money can be the thing like, oh look, he does love me because he's

Kristin Keffeler: 00:23:45

buying me that gift, but do I feel the love or do I experience the gift?

Kristin Keffeler: 00:23:51

And, and it's like, that can, that has created a very entangled

Kristin Keffeler: 00:23:56

space and I think without.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:23:58

A vernacular for us to like a, a language for, for mapping out how our.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:24:05

Inter our, our interrelationship with money exists for each of us.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:24:09

Instead, we answer it, prophies it, and we, we steal from the

Kristin Keffeler: 00:24:13

language of human emotion, right?

Kristin Keffeler: 00:24:16

So like, we yearn for something or we, we, um, we, we love money or we, we detest it.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:24:23

It's all, it's about our, um, projection of human emotion onto this thing.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:24:28

That's really just a tool.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:24:29

It's just a thing.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:24:33

So I think that that's part of, it's, it's part of each of our inner work

Kristin Keffeler: 00:24:37

is it's part of each of our, our work is to heal that inner relationship

Kristin Keffeler: 00:24:42

that we have with money and figure out how do we put it in its right place.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:24:45

Like it's a powerful tool.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:24:47

Let's let it be a tool.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:24:48

Let's let it not rule so much of, of our emotional l.

Russ Haworth: 00:24:54

Absolutely, and I think, again, you mention it, but now I

Russ Haworth: 00:24:58

think it's a really good opportunity to distinguish between money and

Russ Haworth: 00:25:03

wealth, because we're talking about in this series of the podcast anyway,

Russ Haworth: 00:25:08

around myths that exist around family, business, family wealth, and the like.

Russ Haworth: 00:25:12

And a lot of.

Russ Haworth: 00:25:15

Um, the kind of preconceived ideas can often be, well, if you've got

Russ Haworth: 00:25:19

money or you've got wealth, you don't have the same challenges in terms cuz

Russ Haworth: 00:25:24

you can just pay for it to go away.

Russ Haworth: 00:25:25

Right?

Russ Haworth: 00:25:25

That, that kind of, the misconception that, oh, well if there's money you

Russ Haworth: 00:25:29

can just pay for problems to go away.

Russ Haworth: 00:25:30

And I think that's part of what we are trying to, to debunk in terms

Russ Haworth: 00:25:35

of, uh, the, the mess that exists.

Russ Haworth: 00:25:37

. But I think an important distinction there is, is to look at money and wealth.

Russ Haworth: 00:25:41

So again, if you, if you could give us your thoughts there, that would be, um,

Russ Haworth: 00:25:45

a, a really useful, uh, conversation.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:25:48

Yeah, I, I, so the way that I've defined these and

Kristin Keffeler: 00:25:51

I, I think it has felt important, um, in my work to distinguish.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:25:57

Between money and wealth, because I, I, at times will have conversations with

Kristin Keffeler: 00:26:02

rising gen who feel, who are actually in a decently healthy relationship with money,

Kristin Keffeler: 00:26:09

with, with what I describe as the, the day to day human scaled, um, interaction with

Kristin Keffeler: 00:26:18

this tool that is money that we can use.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:26:21

Um, you know, Go buy groceries or to buy coffee.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:26:25

It's like something that's very human scale and, and we feel connected

Kristin Keffeler: 00:26:29

to maybe how we have that money and how much a cup of coffee is.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:26:34

Um, but that, but that they, they may have a very.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:26:38

Decently healthy relationship with money, but have a very

Kristin Keffeler: 00:26:41

unhealthy relationship with wealth.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:26:43

And so for me it has felt really important to define those things separately so that

Kristin Keffeler: 00:26:48

we know which terrain we're working in.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:26:50

And sometimes, um, so money, as I said, is the way that I, um, look at

Kristin Keffeler: 00:26:56

it with clients is, is this thing that is very human scale and transactional

Kristin Keffeler: 00:27:00

and we can feel connected to its flow.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:27:02

Wealth is the accumulation of.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:27:05

On such a scale that it becomes an abstraction, right?

Kristin Keffeler: 00:27:09

It's no longer some, like it's numbers on a statement.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:27:12

It's something that's, that is at a level, whatever that that boundary

Kristin Keffeler: 00:27:18

condition is for each person.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:27:20

It becomes the thing where it's like, I can see the numbers,

Kristin Keffeler: 00:27:23

but I don't like, I don't.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:27:26

Interact with that.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:27:27

I can see them grow, I can see them shrink, but it's all,

Kristin Keffeler: 00:27:30

it's still an abstraction.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:27:32

And um, and so being able to understand the two separate terrains

Kristin Keffeler: 00:27:37

means that we can build the skills to be in relationship with both.

Russ Haworth: 00:27:44

Yeah, and I think that's really important is labeling give, giving

Russ Haworth: 00:27:48

meaning to it means you can then start having meaningful discussions about it.

Russ Haworth: 00:27:52

And what sprang to mind there when you were talking about.

Russ Haworth: 00:27:55

Money versus wealth.

Russ Haworth: 00:27:56

Money's kind of the, on a more micro every day kind of level.

Russ Haworth: 00:28:00

Whereas wealth itself can become something that's macro.

Russ Haworth: 00:28:03

It's much bigger, it's much larger.

Russ Haworth: 00:28:05

It's kind of looms almost in that sense.

Russ Haworth: 00:28:08

Whereas, and you can have different relationships with each.

Russ Haworth: 00:28:11

Right.

Russ Haworth: 00:28:11

And so you can have a different relationship with your money as you

Russ Haworth: 00:28:13

can with the, the wealth overall.

Russ Haworth: 00:28:16

And that, it brings me onto to, to a question around that duality

Russ Haworth: 00:28:21

that you were describing earlier.

Russ Haworth: 00:28:24

Wealth can often feel like a burden.

Russ Haworth: 00:28:28

And you were saying that it, it, you know, it felt difficult for you to

Russ Haworth: 00:28:30

go look, or, or the clients you work with to go, I can't actually talk

Russ Haworth: 00:28:34

about this because it comes across as well, why should I, you know, feel

Russ Haworth: 00:28:39

uncomfortable with the burden of wealth.

Russ Haworth: 00:28:41

But c can you speak to a, a little bit about that as well around why wealth can

Russ Haworth: 00:28:45

become a burden and what you've seen in your work and in, uh, producing the book.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:28:51

Yeah, I, so I think, um, I think that one of the challenges, the,

Kristin Keffeler: 00:28:59

the, the place in which wealth can become.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:29:03

A burden or become problematic is when it is a terrain that is unexplored and

Kristin Keffeler: 00:29:10

that we're un, like, like where it, where it recedes as a burden, where it

Kristin Keffeler: 00:29:15

becomes something that either becomes neutral or can like tip into actually

Kristin Keffeler: 00:29:20

being something that, that's a positive.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:29:22

Um, is, um, is when we have clarified our identity separate from.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:29:32

From our family, um, you know, whether it's family, business and the wealth

Kristin Keffeler: 00:29:37

it creates or whether there's, um, you know, in many cases there's um, a

Kristin Keffeler: 00:29:42

family has sold the business and then there's liquidity and then there's

Kristin Keffeler: 00:29:45

this thing called wealth that is when we over-identify with it or under

Kristin Keffeler: 00:29:53

identify with it, and this is some work.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:29:56

That Jim Grumman and Dennis Jaffe in their, their seminal

Kristin Keffeler: 00:29:59

acquirers and inheritors article.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:30:01

I think that the work they did on this was, was just really brilliant.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:30:05

And, um, and I think, so at, at, at the, um, the summary of that is that

Kristin Keffeler: 00:30:11

like there's this, on this continuum of identification you can over-identify

Kristin Keffeler: 00:30:17

with, with wealth and, and really feel.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:30:21

I am being a wealthy person is part of who I am.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:30:24

And when that is the case then, then it's really important to maintain the

Kristin Keffeler: 00:30:30

status and the appearance and, and like to organize yourself around wealth.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:30:35

Oh, and the other side of the continuum is to under identify with it.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:30:39

And I, you know, you see this in rising John, who like wanna get as far away from.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:30:44

Their, their family name and that wealth is possible, and they haven't

Kristin Keffeler: 00:30:48

figured out how to healthfully integrate those resources into their lives.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:30:52

So either they, they do nothing with it, or they sort of let you know, they let

Kristin Keffeler: 00:30:56

themselves be sort of supported by it, but they wanna not pay attention to what,

Kristin Keffeler: 00:31:01

to, to how they're being supported by it.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:31:03

And it's all very unconscious and mucky.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:31:07

Where, where there's really the power is to, is to, to find the balance

Kristin Keffeler: 00:31:12

between, under identification and over-identification and really find

Kristin Keffeler: 00:31:17

like, who am I and, and how, who am I without this so that I can identify

Kristin Keffeler: 00:31:23

my own voice and my own path and really understand, you know, have a

Kristin Keffeler: 00:31:27

deep, well personal identity capital.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:31:30

And then how do I integrate wealth as a, as a tool and an idea in

Kristin Keffeler: 00:31:36

my life that is supportive of who I am as a, as an individual with

Kristin Keffeler: 00:31:42

a, with a strong core identity.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:31:44

Um, so I think that's where it really becomes a burden is when, when you're

Kristin Keffeler: 00:31:50

on that continuum and, and on one end or the other and, and haven't

Kristin Keffeler: 00:31:55

actually found like who I, who you are.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:31:58

And the strength of that separate from wealth as a concept?

Russ Haworth: 00:32:03

And, and again, you've used the, the term a few times

Russ Haworth: 00:32:06

throughout the conversation already.

Russ Haworth: 00:32:08

The the term of individuation.

Russ Haworth: 00:32:10

Is that what you mean by that in terms of having that sense of identity

Russ Haworth: 00:32:14

and, and understanding who you are?

Russ Haworth: 00:32:16

Is that what you mean by the kind of individuation?

Kristin Keffeler: 00:32:19

Yeah.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:32:20

In, in part for sure.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:32:21

You know, the process of individuation is in part the, the time in life when you.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:32:27

When you're, when one is developmentally, one is, is working to, to see

Kristin Keffeler: 00:32:32

how they are both similar to and different from a family of origin.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:32:36

Right?

Kristin Keffeler: 00:32:36

So like how, like who are they as an individual?

Kristin Keffeler: 00:32:40

And, um, and so in part that is for, for rising gen raised in significant families.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:32:47

Part of the individuation is also creating that.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:32:53

um, around wealth and family wealth and what that, what that means to them.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:32:59

Um, and, and the only, it's just, it's just got to be work that is taken on

Kristin Keffeler: 00:33:07

consciously and, and with self-compassion and a willingness to be kind of messy

Kristin Keffeler: 00:33:11

because it's, that is the, that is, in my experience, that's the evolutionary

Kristin Keffeler: 00:33:16

path to freedom, to liberation is, is sort of like trying on personas

Kristin Keffeler: 00:33:21

and trying on like, how does this feel and what do I think about this?

Kristin Keffeler: 00:33:24

And oh wow.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:33:25

Look, I still get tripped up with.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:33:27

Thought, um, or I still wanna hide in this circumstance or shine too.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:33:32

You know, hold not, not shine too bright, but like hold the persona of

Kristin Keffeler: 00:33:36

a wealthy person in this circumstance.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:33:38

Like, how do I feel about that though?

Kristin Keffeler: 00:33:39

That's all part of the work of like finding one's own voice and one's

Kristin Keffeler: 00:33:44

own orientation in this landscape.

Russ Haworth: 00:33:48

And you said that a great word I like, um, to use as well.

Russ Haworth: 00:33:53

Messy is, is that can be messy, right?

Russ Haworth: 00:33:56

But the.

Russ Haworth: 00:33:57

I guess from my, I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but in terms from my

Russ Haworth: 00:34:01

perspective, is to embrace the messy, um, it's a phrase I heard years ago,

Russ Haworth: 00:34:06

a, a conference, um, around content creation actually was, you, you're

Russ Haworth: 00:34:10

never gonna get it absolutely right, but just embrace the messy, don't let

Russ Haworth: 00:34:14

perfection be the enemy of progress.

Russ Haworth: 00:34:16

And I think that, again, it, it, it rings true with what you're saying there.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:34:21

Yep.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:34:21

Uh, it's so true.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:34:22

And like it gets, it's, uh, it's so, you know, I, I, as someone who, who

Kristin Keffeler: 00:34:29

strives for excellence, I get how, um, it can feel scary to think about.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:34:35

Letting the messy be like just embracing it.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:34:39

Um, and it, it is the, you know, I often talk about with clients that there's like

Kristin Keffeler: 00:34:46

this period of time, particularly when we're first diving into the work, where

Kristin Keffeler: 00:34:49

it's like we're just taking everything and all the drawers and we're like dumping

Kristin Keffeler: 00:34:53

'em out, and it is gonna look messier for a while and it's gonna feel like,

Kristin Keffeler: 00:34:56

what are, where are we going in this?

Kristin Keffeler: 00:34:58

Until we start to pick out the important things.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:35:02

Get rid of the stuff that doesn't matter anymore, organize it into piles, and then

Kristin Keffeler: 00:35:07

we can actually do something with it.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:35:09

As long as it's like shoved away in the drawers or, or like, we

Kristin Keffeler: 00:35:14

can't, we can't do anything with it.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:35:16

Everything can look nice on the, you know, to use, to extend that analogy.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:35:19

Everything can look nice on top of the dresser, but if the drawers are

Kristin Keffeler: 00:35:22

stuffed with, with all sorts of clutter, like we're not gonna get very far.

Russ Haworth: 00:35:27

Yeah.

Russ Haworth: 00:35:28

And, and let's dive into to that, the topic of clutter.

Russ Haworth: 00:35:32

Cause again, it's something that you cover, um, with, within the book.

Russ Haworth: 00:35:37

Go through, if you can, the, the, uh, types of clutter and, and the impact of

Russ Haworth: 00:35:42

that, that, that can be felt by those, um, the, the book is appealing to.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:35:49

Yeah.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:35:49

So this, I, you know, maybe this isn't a, an exhaustive list, but

Kristin Keffeler: 00:35:53

this is the, as I thought about, like what's my, what's my experiences?

Kristin Keffeler: 00:35:59

I've had the opportunity to sit in, in really honest conversations with a

Kristin Keffeler: 00:36:04

lot of rising gen over the years, and.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:36:07

What, what are the, where do I see them get tripped up time and time again?

Kristin Keffeler: 00:36:11

And so this is the four types of clutter that, that I identified that, um, and

Kristin Keffeler: 00:36:17

you know, you think about, like, I, I chose clutter as the, as the metaphor

Kristin Keffeler: 00:36:22

here because it really is about like, You know, when you think about clutters,

Kristin Keffeler: 00:36:27

the stuff that hides in the corners, it's the stuff that we jam in the closet.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:36:31

It's, it's like, it's not the stuff you have in the foyer where

Kristin Keffeler: 00:36:35

everybody can come in and say like, oh, what a beautiful home.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:36:39

It's like the stuff we put down in the basement, cause

Kristin Keffeler: 00:36:41

we don't wanna deal with it.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:36:42

It's like, so it's hiding in all these places, even if things look good.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:36:47

The surface.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:36:48

And so, um, so that's sort of this, the, the overarching ideas, like what,

Kristin Keffeler: 00:36:54

what's hiding beneath the surface.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:36:55

And so the four top types of clutter that I, I identified as what I, that I see

Kristin Keffeler: 00:37:00

most commonly is money clutter, which is really limiting beliefs about money

Kristin Keffeler: 00:37:04

and, and also wealth, money, stories that don't serve, um, the rising gen, you know,

Kristin Keffeler: 00:37:09

about who they are or what they have.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:37:12

Um, and this could extend into then financial behaviors that.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:37:16

Responsible or conscious, um, you know, understanding cash flow

Kristin Keffeler: 00:37:21

and credit and being responsible for their own financial lives.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:37:26

So money clutter is it, it usually starts with some, um, internal belief system,

Kristin Keffeler: 00:37:32

unconscious mindsets around money and wealth, and then extends to behaviors

Kristin Keffeler: 00:37:37

in that that illustrate those, um, those sort of, uh, distorted mindset.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:37:43

The second form of clutter is identity clutter.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:37:46

And we talked a little bit about this just a minute ago, but it's the identity

Kristin Keffeler: 00:37:49

clutter is really like, it's false beliefs about who you are and who you need to be,

Kristin Keffeler: 00:37:54

um, and what money, what role, money and wealth play in your life as an individual.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:38:00

It's.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:38:01

It's other people's projections about wealth and what, and your

Kristin Keffeler: 00:38:05

acceptance of those projections.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:38:07

It's your own projections about wealth.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:38:09

So it's, it's that over identification and under identification, then finding that

Kristin Keffeler: 00:38:14

that special middle place where it's like there's just the identity of the person

Kristin Keffeler: 00:38:20

and money and wealth are, are the tools.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:38:23

Um, but the cluttered places before you get there.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:38:27

The third kind of clutter that I see most commonly is relationship clutter.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:38:32

And, um, this is, this comes, it's, it's such a painful territory because it's can

Kristin Keffeler: 00:38:39

be in romantic relationships for sure.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:38:42

Um, and certainly also in friendships.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:38:44

And that can start really young where there's some, some questioning.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:38:47

Like before I, before you're even really aware that you might.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:38:52

um, questioning, right?

Kristin Keffeler: 00:38:54

Like the authentic of the authenticity of relationships.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:38:57

Like do those kids wanna come and hang out at my house because they

Kristin Keffeler: 00:39:02

really love hanging out with me?

Kristin Keffeler: 00:39:03

And are they equally as excited to have me hang out at their house?

Kristin Keffeler: 00:39:07

Or do they just want to come over here cause I have the best toys

Kristin Keffeler: 00:39:10

and they don't want me to go over to their house and find out that

Kristin Keffeler: 00:39:13

they don't have as many fun things?

Kristin Keffeler: 00:39:15

Like is the friendship about the friend or is it about.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:39:19

The stuff at our, and our early projections about,

Kristin Keffeler: 00:39:22

about status based on stuff.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:39:24

Um, and, and that can, you know that a lot because we don't have, typically don't

Kristin Keffeler: 00:39:31

have good, um, good language around money and wealth and because it's very often

Kristin Keffeler: 00:39:37

tabooed even talk about in families, kids are often raised without having the space

Kristin Keffeler: 00:39:44

for these conversations and to detangle.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:39:47

How they're feeling about friendships and, um, and you know, whether they're feeling

Kristin Keffeler: 00:39:53

alienated because they have something or alienated because they, they, yeah, for

Kristin Keffeler: 00:39:59

whatever reason, they don't understand how, what the relation, the, the real,

Kristin Keffeler: 00:40:03

um, fabric of the relationship is.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:40:05

And this can, um, extend very painfully into more romantic

Kristin Keffeler: 00:40:09

relationships and marriages where there's, where there's the part of the

Kristin Keffeler: 00:40:13

dynamic that starts to play out is.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:40:16

Um, codependency on the wealth as a, as a thing that, that the couple is

Kristin Keffeler: 00:40:22

orienting around rather than really putting themselves at the center of it.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:40:26

Um, and then finally the last one is contribution clutter.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:40:30

And I named it contribution clutter rather than work clutter because, Um,

Kristin Keffeler: 00:40:35

you know, has such a connotation with, with paid work, which is actually, um,

Kristin Keffeler: 00:40:41

in my experience, really important for a lot of rising gen to engage in, in

Kristin Keffeler: 00:40:47

some activities where they feel that their contribution matters in a way

Kristin Keffeler: 00:40:51

that is tangible and they can relate to other peers about receiving, um,

Kristin Keffeler: 00:40:56

payment for the work that they're doing.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:40:58

But that doesn't always have to be the case.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:40:59

Not everybody has to get paid for the work that they do.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:41:03

The clutter is that there's the self-limiting narratives about the

Kristin Keffeler: 00:41:06

value a person has and the confusion around the fact that the financial,

Kristin Keffeler: 00:41:13

removing the financial need to work doesn't remove the human need to work.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:41:19

And as humans, we are wired for contribution.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:41:21

We're wired to recognize that we matter, that when we show that it

Kristin Keffeler: 00:41:27

matters that we wake up, it matters that we go do something in the

Kristin Keffeler: 00:41:30

world, and that we get validation.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:41:33

For, for being in the world and without the, we, we have this

Kristin Keffeler: 00:41:38

confusion that like, if you don't have the financial need to work, then

Kristin Keffeler: 00:41:44

you know, and work, you know, work.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:41:46

Why work if you don't have to?

Kristin Keffeler: 00:41:48

But that removes that, that negates this whole element of the human need

Kristin Keffeler: 00:41:52

to work, which is so elementally important to our feeling of matter.

Russ Haworth: 00:41:58

Yeah.

Russ Haworth: 00:41:58

And that, it reminds me of the, again, if we're talking about, um, myths.

Russ Haworth: 00:42:03

Um, I used to to be, uh, far more in involved in wealth management before I

Russ Haworth: 00:42:08

got into to family business, um, advisory.

Russ Haworth: 00:42:10

And I used to, I was fortunate enough to work with lottery winners

Russ Haworth: 00:42:13

and they would very often, Go.

Russ Haworth: 00:42:17

Part of my ambition is I'm gonna stop work.

Russ Haworth: 00:42:20

I don't need to work Now I've got more money.

Russ Haworth: 00:42:22

And they didn't actually appreciate and that was very sudden wealth, right?

Russ Haworth: 00:42:24

It's not, not accumulated or inherited wealth at the time.

Russ Haworth: 00:42:27

It is very sudden wealth.

Russ Haworth: 00:42:29

But their anticipation of what they would feel like around not having the

Russ Haworth: 00:42:34

need to work was entirely different to the reality because they kind of

Russ Haworth: 00:42:38

replaced that need to give contribution.

Russ Haworth: 00:42:42

So I substituted Well, I don't need to do that cuz I, I've got

Russ Haworth: 00:42:45

a load of money in the bank now.

Russ Haworth: 00:42:47

But the reality was the, the real reason that we do it as well as

Russ Haworth: 00:42:51

providing for our families is, is for that element of contribution, right?

Russ Haworth: 00:42:55

It, it is feeling like we are giving something back and we have purpose.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:42:59

Yep.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:43:00

Yep.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:43:00

I think you, I mean, you nailed it from a, from a, a different perspective.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:43:05

It's that, it's that when you have enough, then.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:43:10

Is it like, do you, do you not need to work?

Kristin Keffeler: 00:43:13

That's the one of the, the first things people will look at, right?

Kristin Keffeler: 00:43:16

Is like, oh, I will be happier if I'm not working.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:43:19

And, and they're, you know, depending on what kind of job you're doing and

Kristin Keffeler: 00:43:22

how you feel, the meaning and purpose in that job aligns with who you are.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:43:28

There probably are people that would be a lot happier not working in what they

Kristin Keffeler: 00:43:32

were working in, but that doesn't mean not working is actually the right choice.

Russ Haworth: 00:43:38

Yeah, absolutely.

Russ Haworth: 00:43:39

And I've, I've seen it firsthand where people have stopped, you know,

Russ Haworth: 00:43:43

they've, they've quit the job that they, um, that they had, and then

Russ Haworth: 00:43:48

realized actually that wasn't the, the best thing they could have done.

Russ Haworth: 00:43:51

Again, it's individual to set different people's circumstances and,

Russ Haworth: 00:43:55

and it may provide the opportunity to follow something that they are

Russ Haworth: 00:43:58

truly passionate about, where.

Russ Haworth: 00:44:00

Doing so before.

Russ Haworth: 00:44:01

So again, not, not to give the impression that everyone should stay in a job that

Russ Haworth: 00:44:05

they're in, if they don't have it, if they have the opportunity to do something else.

Russ Haworth: 00:44:08

Um, so, so we've talked about some of the challenges and

Russ Haworth: 00:44:12

burdens that worth can bring.

Russ Haworth: 00:44:14

What, what is it that we can be doing to try and ease that and to

Russ Haworth: 00:44:18

try and help prepare rising gen for what they're going to face and,

Russ Haworth: 00:44:24

and kind of overcoming that side.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:44:26

Yeah.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:44:27

Um, so this is, this is one of the things that is really near and dear to

Kristin Keffeler: 00:44:31

my heart because, um, because one, I'm, I, I think that the most effective,

Kristin Keffeler: 00:44:38

um, way to move forward is to have.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:44:41

Have a solutions focused approach.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:44:43

It's not, it we, we need to look at, at that clutter.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:44:47

We need to understand the landscape of what, like why is this

Kristin Keffeler: 00:44:50

actually difficult when from the.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:44:53

No one would think this would be, that I would have difficulty.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:44:56

Right?

Kristin Keffeler: 00:44:57

And, and so that's important, but then to, in order to actually do something with

Kristin Keffeler: 00:45:01

it, we need to move into, um, some action, some some powerful positive action.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:45:07

And so this, this part of, um, is very near and dear to my heart because

Kristin Keffeler: 00:45:11

it's based in the research that I did.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:45:14

At the University of Pennsylvania, um, in 2017 and 2018, and, um, as part

Kristin Keffeler: 00:45:19

of my master's in Applied Positive Psychology, the, the thesis work

Kristin Keffeler: 00:45:24

that I did was interviewing exemplar rising generation family members.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:45:29

So exemplar are those who are at the upper end of development for their population.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:45:34

So I, I found, um, through my network, I found rising Gen who.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:45:40

Who self-reported that they were thriving, that they were engaged,

Kristin Keffeler: 00:45:43

that they, they felt really settled and confident in their lives.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:45:47

And I, I went about interviewing them to try to understand, um, were there

Kristin Keffeler: 00:45:52

common character traits and skills that they had that that made it so that

Kristin Keffeler: 00:45:57

they felt that that was part of the scaffolding that supported them to feel

Kristin Keffeler: 00:46:02

like they, they felt, which is thriving.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:46:06

And while I'm sure there are, there are many other factors that

Kristin Keffeler: 00:46:10

also support rising gen to be successful and to feel confident,

Kristin Keffeler: 00:46:14

um, and competent in their lives.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:46:17

There, there were a couple key things that came out of my research data

Kristin Keffeler: 00:46:20

that I think are, are really just.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:46:22

Useful tools.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:46:23

Um, and those five components were one, they had adopted at some point in their

Kristin Keffeler: 00:46:29

life, they had adopted a growth mindset.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:46:31

So the belief that a tr, you know, growth mindset is the belief that a trait

Kristin Keffeler: 00:46:34

like intelligence or resilience is, is malleable and can be developed rather than

Kristin Keffeler: 00:46:40

a fixed mindset which says, I am who I am.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:46:43

And so anytime I venture out of this narrow band of who I am, then I.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:46:51

Like, I will illustrate that I'm not as smart as, you know, like you find

Kristin Keffeler: 00:46:55

the limits of your intelligence, you find the limits of your grit at where a

Kristin Keffeler: 00:46:59

growth mindset says there are no limits.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:47:00

I, I keep leaning in.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:47:03

It's, it's difficult.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:47:04

I learn, I grow, I get better.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:47:07

Um, so they had a growth mindset.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:47:09

Um, they, the, these exemplars all had developed grit through like the

Kristin Keffeler: 00:47:16

abil that, that character trait of grit, which is defined as passion and

Kristin Keffeler: 00:47:19

perseverance for a long term goal.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:47:21

Um, so they had stuck with something long enough to really like, get

Kristin Keffeler: 00:47:25

through the hardship, find the, the power of accomplishment, and

Kristin Keffeler: 00:47:30

knew that they had what it took to like, to make something happen.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:47:34

Gritty people just don't give up.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:47:37

Um, the third thing was a MA having a mastery orientation.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:47:40

And you can imagine a lot of these, these character traits are very

Kristin Keffeler: 00:47:44

interdependent with each other.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:47:46

Um, so mastery orientation is someone who is directed to a,

Kristin Keffeler: 00:47:50

towards a solution rather than focusing on the cause of failure.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:47:54

So that is very much the interconnection between growth mindset and grit is

Kristin Keffeler: 00:47:59

someone who has a master orientation, is.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:48:02

When something doesn't go quite according to play, they go, huh, what?

Kristin Keffeler: 00:48:06

Well, what can I learn from that?

Kristin Keffeler: 00:48:08

Like, why did that happen and what would we do different next time?

Kristin Keffeler: 00:48:12

Right?

Kristin Keffeler: 00:48:12

They, they fail fast, they learn, they move on and, um, And so

Kristin Keffeler: 00:48:17

having a mass orientation is really important to, to long term growth.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:48:21

Um, the fourth one is that they had developed the instinct for really

Kristin Keffeler: 00:48:25

recognizing close positive relationships.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:48:28

They'd been able to, to discern between the, between true, authentic

Kristin Keffeler: 00:48:33

friends and the near enemy of the true, authentic friend, which is.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:48:37

, maybe someone who looks like a friend, but like you, you know,

Kristin Keffeler: 00:48:40

like doesn't really resonate deep.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:48:42

Um, so they, they had built that skill and knew that there were people

Kristin Keffeler: 00:48:45

in their lives who loved them for who they were and not what they had.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:48:49

Um, and then finally that the use of character strengths and virtues.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:48:54

Really recognizing what the, their core character strengths are and being able to

Kristin Keffeler: 00:48:58

use their, those in their lives regularly.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:49:01

Um, so those were, that's the scaffolding that can help a rising.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:49:06

Move forward is to clear that clutter, um, build these character traits

Kristin Keffeler: 00:49:11

and skills, and then there's the room to look out into the world.

Russ Haworth: 00:49:15

So you've looked at the characteristics of

Russ Haworth: 00:49:18

exemplar, um, rising gen.

Russ Haworth: 00:49:21

What are some of the things that people can start doing now

Russ Haworth: 00:49:24

to kind of reimagine wealth?

Russ Haworth: 00:49:26

Its power to impact lives, communities, and society.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:49:31

That's a great, that's a great question.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:49:33

Um, you know, I think that there's.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:49:39

I wanna make, I wanna make it really clear first of all, that not every rising gen

Kristin Keffeler: 00:49:44

needs to go be a massive change maker in the world and a social entrepreneur

Kristin Keffeler: 00:49:48

in order for their life to have value.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:49:50

I feel really, it's really important to state that like, Self tending to self and

Kristin Keffeler: 00:49:58

and doing the work so that one can be an authentic, engaged person in their family.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:50:05

Uh, be good parents, be, be active community members in their community

Kristin Keffeler: 00:50:10

and like that, that's actually enough.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:50:14

Right.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:50:14

To be a contributor is in your own life, is actually enough.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:50:18

And, um, and, but, and there is also this invitation, you know, in

Kristin Keffeler: 00:50:22

the vein of, um, to, to he who much has been given, much is expected.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:50:27

There is an invitation to look at the social networks and, and financial

Kristin Keffeler: 00:50:32

resources that one has and say like, when I'm really on purpose,

Kristin Keffeler: 00:50:39

What, what impact might I have?

Kristin Keffeler: 00:50:41

How might I leverage what I have been given to really create a ripple impact

Kristin Keffeler: 00:50:45

that I can, I can stand proud in?

Kristin Keffeler: 00:50:49

And, um, and so I'm not sure that exactly answers your question, but

Kristin Keffeler: 00:50:55

I think the, at the heart of this is the invitation to, to look inward.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:51:02

To, to say, Hey, like, Like it, it, it does, it's not an insurmountable

Kristin Keffeler: 00:51:07

task to, to do this work, to clear the clutter, to detangle the places that are

Kristin Keffeler: 00:51:12

tangled and to move forward in a way of me from a place of meaning and purpose.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:51:17

And sometimes that can be done inside family systems and sometimes someone

Kristin Keffeler: 00:51:22

needs to like, take a step out to create the distance so that they can do that.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:51:25

And just because of the dynamic of a family, and it may not be

Kristin Keffeler: 00:51:29

the healthiest environment to do this work, that's okay too.

Russ Haworth: 00:51:33

Uh huh

Kristin Keffeler: 00:51:34

But I think that one of the things we need to remember is

Kristin Keffeler: 00:51:36

like we are a, a big community of, of people that the advisors who work with

Kristin Keffeler: 00:51:43

rising gen and these family systems, the parents who are parenting in this,

Kristin Keffeler: 00:51:47

in these families, um, and the rising that gen themselves like we are a, a

Kristin Keffeler: 00:51:52

triad that needs to be coup supportive in, in, in inviting these conversations

Kristin Keffeler: 00:51:59

and creating a space where we.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:52:01

More healthful, um, healing conversations about the role that money and wealth can

Kristin Keffeler: 00:52:07

play in our lives that are problematic and how we might, uh, transform

Kristin Keffeler: 00:52:11

those to something that's actually really creates a lot of possibility.

Russ Haworth: 00:52:16

Absolutely, and I would, uh, highly recommend to

Russ Haworth: 00:52:19

anyone where this has resonated.

Russ Haworth: 00:52:21

This topic has resonated with them, that they check out your book,

Russ Haworth: 00:52:25

which is the myth of the silver.

Russ Haworth: 00:52:27

, where can people find out more about you and your work?

Russ Haworth: 00:52:31

Um, and, uh, find out more about the book.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:52:35

Yeah, thank you.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:52:36

Um, so I'm on LinkedIn and you can just look up Kristin

Kristin Keffeler: 00:52:40

Kefler, which is K e f f e l e r.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:52:43

It's got a hidden extra e in there.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:52:46

Um, and my, my website has information about the book, so illumination.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:52:51

360 i l l u m i n a t i o n three sixty.com, and you'll

Kristin Keffeler: 00:52:57

find book links there.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:52:59

Um, and there'll be soon, there'll be some videos up and, um, and also

Kristin Keffeler: 00:53:04

some, there's plenty of information about the book and other resources.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:53:08

So, um, I welcome people to take a look there and reach out to me there.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:53:13

I'd love to be in conversation about this topic.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:53:14

It's something that is deep in my heart.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:53:17

Feel like I'm carrying my flag about it right now.

Kristin Keffeler: 00:53:19

Like I wanna, I want this to be my own ripple impact.

Russ Haworth: 00:53:24

That has has come across in a passion.

Russ Haworth: 00:53:26

You speak about the topic on today, and I'm really grateful for this conversation.

Russ Haworth: 00:53:30

It's been fantastic.

Russ Haworth: 00:53:32

I will link everything that you've spoken about into the show notes, but for now,

Russ Haworth: 00:53:38

ke, thank you so much for joining us on the show and sharing this with us.