How much of who you are is actually you—and how much was handed to you by your family, your culture, your religion, and generations that came before you?

In this episode of the Adult Child of Dysfunction Podcast, I sit down with author, historian, and educator Margaret Eastman Smith for a fascinating conversation about generational trauma, family history, identity, belonging, and what happens when you finally begin questioning the life you were taught you were supposed to live.

Margaret spent nearly two decades on the faculty of American University’s International Peace and Conflict Resolution program, studying the role history and memory play in divided societies. But her newest book, A Spectacular Inheritance, turns that lens inward, examining her own family history, her parents’ trauma, and the powerful culture in which she was raised.

Margaret grew up surrounded by people committed to changing the world. There was tremendous purpose and idealism in that environment, but there were also expectations about who she should be, what she should believe, and how she should live.

By age 35, Margaret realized she needed to step outside of that world and discover her own way of living. But leaving was only the beginning.

Because what happens when you've spent your life adapting to the expectations around you and suddenly have to ask:

What do I believe? What do I want? What do I need? And who am I when I'm no longer being who everyone expected me to be?

Margaret describes how, growing up, even the idea of exploring her own needs felt almost forbidden. She also recognized that she had spent years trying to protect and rescue her parents, compromising parts of herself in the process.

And THAT is where this conversation becomes so relevant for adult children of dysfunction.

We talk about how trauma can ripple through generations, how children learn to adapt to the unresolved wounds of their parents, why separating from a family or belief system can leave you wondering who you actually are, and why discovering yourself can feel both incredibly freeing and incredibly scary.

We also get into something I talk about all the time: connection.

If connection didn't feel safe growing up, creating healthy relationships later in life isn't always as simple as deciding you want them. Sometimes we first have to learn how to connect with ourselves. Margaret and I talk about authentic connection, curiosity instead of judgment, learning what genuinely lights you up, and creating enough space in your life to hear your own voice.

We even talk about why stillness can feel so uncomfortable for adult children of dysfunction. When you've spent years being hypervigilant, performing, producing, caretaking, or trying to meet everyone else's expectations, simply sitting with yourself can feel surprisingly unsafe.

This conversation is about more than looking backward.

It's about understanding what you inherited so you can decide what you want to carry forward—and what you're finally ready to leave behind.

Margaret's final message says it beautifully:

Be true to yourself and find connection.

Connect with Margaret Eastman Smith

Learn more about Margaret, A Spectacular Inheritance, her writing, and her work:

MargaretEastmanSmith.com

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hello everybody.

2

Welcome back to another episode

of Adult Child of Dysfunction.

3

Today we have with us Margaret Eastman

Smith, who served on the faculty

4

of American University's program

on International Peace and Conflict

5

Resolution for nearly two decades.

6

Her academic work focuses on the

role of history and memory in divided

7

societies, as well as grassroots

approaches to peace building.

8

She pursued counseling studies to a

greater understanding of these matters.

9

She holds a BA and MA in History from

Boston University, a PhD in International

10

Affairs from Tufts University, Tufts

University's Fletcher School, and

11

an MA in Clinical Mental Health

Counseling from Lesley University.

12

She is the author of Reckoning

with the Past: Teaching

13

History in Northern Ireland.

14

Welcome, Margaret.

15

So good to be here, Tammy.

16

Thank you.

17

Yeah, I think we're gonna

have a great conversation.

18

We actually, I was just looking

over your questions and everything,

19

and I was like, there's gotta be…

20

I know you just wrote a book,

and I've never been to Ireland.

21

My family is from Ireland, and I was

looking and I was like, how interesting,

22

My father went to Boston, and my

mother got her doctorate at Tufts.

23

So I was like that's kinda interesting."

24

Oh, wow.

25

Okay.

26

So yeah, I was like, "Okay."

27

We have a lot of overlap.

28

Yep.

29

And the…

30

My father, my great-great-grandfather,

I believe, was, like, the

31

founder of Cambridge University.

32

I think that was in Ireland, right?

33

I don't know.

34

I don't know.

35

There's one in Massachusetts too,

but- Yeah, there might well be one.

36

I can't think of it at the moment,

but there might well be one.

37

Yes.

38

But what an interesting

family history you have.

39

When we get into uses of memory and

history and trauma and all of that

40

the Irish story is just so powerful.

41

It…

42

And it's funny- … because one of my

fondest memory, but yet most traumatic

43

memory, so not really a fond memory, just

one of my only memories, was my mother

44

dragging me to these Irish pubs on St.

45

Patrick's Day.

46

It's my family lineage, we

used to have to get up there.

47

You used to have to sing that song.

48

Were green alligators and long neck

those Irish, And I can remember every St.

49

Patrick's Day, and I still to this day

like, "Tammy, what were you thinking?"

50

I would get excited because it was

a holiday, and then I would end up,

51

it was always the most traumatic

event of my life every year.

52

I'm like, "Why do I get excited

about this being a holiday?"

53

Because I would have to get…

54

She would at this point be

about 15 drinks in, right?

55

My dad would- I was thinking that was

probably what you had to deal with, was

56

at the end of the day, everybody who

celebrated massively has to be picked

57

up from the pavement or whatever.

58

Yeah.

59

It can be really sad.

60

It, it- Yeah … was funny, and I can

remember having to get pushed up on the

61

stage at, 10 years old in front of all

these drunk people and doing that Green

62

Alligator song, and it was so humiliating.

63

And then I- Yes … I don't know.

64

It's just- … funny, but it's that Irish,

she was like, "No, we're gonna do it."

65

And my husband and I still

go to, Irish bars on St.

66

Patrick's Day.

67

But anyway I did wanna talk to you

because it was really interesting

68

when you talk about the past

and the present and the history.

69

I have to admit I am I never had a

good history teacher, and I regret

70

that, that I didn't seek out…

71

i'm not good at history because I

never found it interesting to me.

72

But now I'm like, ooh, I love these

historical novels and things like that.

73

But my sense of history is really bad.

74

But talk about what you were just

talking about with the history and

75

the past and the trauma and all that.

76

Yeah.

77

There, there are two sort of major paths

we could go down here, because my first

78

book, which was published 20 years ago,

was really looking at the way these

79

memories stay alive in, especially in

places where the political arrangements

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ha- are still compromised or are

under debate or something like that.

81

Because each side sees that its way

of telling the history is a way to

82

present their political program.

83

And so history gets used in

politics like a political football.

84

So that is the case in any society, but

the more political tension there is,

85

the more there's gonna be that problem.

86

But then it's, the reason that it's

so powerful is that it's speaking to

87

people's own experience, that you and I

know that our parents, our grandparents

88

lived through some terrible things.

89

There are things they never talked about.

90

There are things they had to just put up

with or deal with or remain silent about.

91

And so we know that this past

which we're hearing the politicians

92

speak about belongs to us, too.

93

So that's a thing that you see in Ukraine,

in Ireland, in Israel-Palestine, in,

94

in any place where the, and of course

Russia, who's going to, is trying

95

to rewrite the history of Ukraine.

96

And we're seeing it in our own country

also now, so that's another whole subject.

97

The, my latest book, which is called

A Spectacular Inheritance, this is the

98

book that's just coming out, and this

book- is about my personal story of my

99

own memories, but it's interwoven with

the fact that my father was Scottish.

100

And so this Scottish past is not

the same as the Irish past, but

101

it has some similar resonances.

102

And certainly what we experienced

at the hands of the English has

103

stayed with us in many ways.

104

And so I recognized in my father's

life the thing was that he was born

105

in 1914, so that's the year that the

First World War started, and he was

106

born in Scotland, and his father, who

was a minister of the church, was going

107

around looking for ways that he could

help with the war effort, and finally

108

went over to France in the war and was

a chaplain to the British servicemen.

109

And then developed cancer while he

was over there, and came home at the

110

end of the war and died of cancer

when the children were quite young.

111

My father was five.

112

So here their father died, but he

wasn't killed in the war, but they

113

were nonetheless put in the category

of all the children whose parent,

114

whose fathers had died in the war.

115

And this shattering, shattering

national experience where the whole

116

sociology of Scotland changed through

that First World War, and then these

117

families all having to grin and bear

it or just not look too self-concerned

118

because they knew that everybody else

had gone through the same experience.

119

And so here he is with his mother,

having six children, having a very

120

tiny pension, having to figure

out how they would keep going.

121

And I could see that my father was

a traumatized person and a person

122

whose family had been in some sense

shattered by this experience, and

123

at the same time would know that it

was not unlike the experiences of a

124

very large number of other people.

125

So anyway, I'm, I've been talking

too long without giving you

126

the chance to ask a question.

127

But, No, that's okay … but

this is the sort of framework in

128

which I think about my own life.

129

So talk about, you made a comment in

something that you wrote, and it was…

130

Where is it?

131

The past is present.

132

The past is present in a host of ways.

133

How does the past call us

to, in our present work?

134

So talk a little bit about that, and

talk a little bit about, because we,

135

being that we're on the Adult Child

of Dysfunction podcast- Yeah … I

136

love that you said your book kinda

steered it back to the past traumas.

137

And trauma is so generational.

138

It's, it just is gen- Yeah … it's…

139

And you can go f- from it from a

scientific standpoint as far as, the

140

trauma actually changes your physical

brain, which changes your DNA.

141

Or you can just look at it like a lot of

people just look at the kind of adaptive

142

framework of it where this trauma did

this to my mother, so she by default acted

143

like this, and then treated me like that.

144

And by default I treat

my children like that.

145

Yeah.

146

But either way, it gets

passed on and passed on.

147

Yeah.

148

And there are so many, when you think back

about history, there's so many things.

149

Like my, my grandparents grew up in the

Great Depression, and so they had hoarding

150

tendency, as I guess you could say.

151

Yes.

152

That's very frequently something that,

that shows up also with refugees.

153

Yeah.

154

I've talked to Cambodian young

Americans whose parents came from

155

Cambodia in the late '70s and early

'80s who see that in their families.

156

'Cause once you, when you've

lost everything, you just wanna

157

be sure you've got a backup.

158

Yep.

159

Yeah.

160

Yeah.

161

Yeah.

162

It was…

163

I remember my, I would be like saying

to my grandmother like, "Why did

164

he just go out and buy 36 turkeys?"

165

She was like, "Because they

were nine cents a pound."

166

Wow.

167

Wow.

168

And we would have cases of

toilet paper, and it was…

169

And you're right, he just grew up not

knowing where the next meal was coming.

170

So if he could afford- Yeah … something

and it was a good deal, he got it.

171

And, Just snap it up.

172

Yes … and it's funny though,

because that's two generations

173

later that I had to deal with my

own scarcity issues in my mind- Oh,

174

interesting … from growing up with them.

175

Yes.

176

Yeah.

177

You never know where your next gallon

of milk is coming from kinda attitude.

178

Yeah.

179

So I could see how just, those are

just small examples of that in play.

180

But talk about your book.

181

My book really starts with my parents'

182

The … I'm a little bit older

than you, so my parents were a

183

little bit older than your parents.

184

So my parents were going

185

They were both college

graduates, my father in Scotland,

186

my mother in Los Angeles.

187

And they met in a very powerful

Christian-based organization that was

188

trying to mobilize people with some

kind of hope for the future by saying

189

that, the world has gone through

this cataclysm of the Depression, and

190

before that, the cataclysm of the First

World War, and there is a way that

191

all of us can do something to make a

difference so the future will be better."

192

And the proposition of this group

was that, "You guys are Christians.

193

We're all Christians in this group."

194

That's how it started.

195

Later it was a little different, but

at the start they said, "But we don't

196

always live our Christianity, so we

need to live our Christianity better."

197

And so how do you do

that better than you did?

198

One way is that there's a sort of

moral compass in all of our hearts, and

199

we need to be more responsive to it.

200

We need to be sure that we hold

ourselves accountable to the

201

n- things we know we should do.

202

So we should be absolutely honest.

203

It's a little bit hard

to quarrel with that.

204

, Absolute honesty was one

of the bedrocks of this.

205

There are other standards,

absolute unselfishness,

206

absolute purity, absolute love.

207

Also hard to quarrel with, but

maybe a little bit harder to define.

208

But in any case, they believed that

God could guide people, and God

209

would use us all to remake the world.

210

And this organization

211

And then in the 19- 1939, just around

the time World War II started, people

212

were talking about re-arming for the

battle that was ahead in World War II.

213

And so this organization renamed

itself Moral Re-Armament because they

214

wanted to talk about how it wasn't

just about military armament, it's

215

about morality and spirituality.

216

So to make a long story short, I was

born into this organization in the 19-

217

late 1940s, in the post-World War II

era, and my parents were entirely engaged

218

in trying to do something to reconcile

French and Germans after World War II.

219

So I was born into this high-minded,

highly moral, very dedicated, very

220

unselfish family you could say,

because it wasn't just my parents,

221

it was this whole crowd of other

people they were doing it with.

222

And- If you have any example in

your own life or anybody else's

223

life of what it is to be born into

a powerful culture you might know

224

something about what that's like.

225

But for me, it was so powerful, so

admirable in many ways, and yet as a kid

226

I could also see where the holes were

and the problems and so and so forth.

227

But how seriously could I take

them when these people were

228

doing such high-minded things?

229

And so I had the burden of growing up

in this thing, trying to decide what

230

my own separate future would be, being

unable to find a way to break out

231

of it, becoming an adult within it.

232

Only when I was 35 did I recognize

that however good or bad this thing

233

might be, I've got to get out.

234

I have got to measure my

life in some different frame.

235

And so I left.

236

So this is a story about a powerful

culture and leaving a powerful

237

culture, but it's also … And this

is what's interesting, I think,

238

is what happens after you leave.

239

Y- you can talk to lots of people

who do leave powerful cultures.

240

You can see in the literature of people

departing from real cults- I was just

241

gonna say, I was just gonna say that-

Getting out Yeah … getting out is big,

242

but then there you are very much alone,

very much not quite knowing what your

243

values are in this new world that you

have entered, struggling to just get your

244

feet on s- sort of firm land, and maybe

you have to find a job in this situation.

245

You have to deal with the whole

question of romantic relationships.

246

You have to find your way in a world

that you don't really know very well.

247

And so I wanted the book to also

capture that aspect of the whole

248

thing So that's my spectacular in-

inheritance, is the title of the book,

249

what I kept and what I left behind.

250

But your subject about dysfunctional

parents, there was a way in which

251

my parents' dysfunctionality

contributed so much to this, because

252

I was rescuing them all the time.

253

They were the ones who jumped into

this kind of massive dedicated group

254

of people, and I think it was partly

because of their own trauma that

255

they felt they needed to do this.

256

And so it be- I could see that

they were too fragile for me to

257

quarrel with what they had done.

258

I felt like I had to go along with

it in order to keep them whole.

259

And that's where I think my story

speaks to your particular frame of

260

reference here when you're talking

about dysfunctionality of parents.

261

Oh, it and it does, because it's just,

like you said, it's generational.

262

But the, you just feeling like your needs

probably came bef- less than your parents.

263

Like you said, you were- Oh, I had

no idea about my needs … yeah.

264

My needs were something I felt

imp- un- permitted to explore.

265

The, the very notion of it seemed sinful.

266

Yeah.

267

Yep.

268

I have a couple episodes going way back

on even just the religious groups, and

269

like I have people that were in cults.

270

I also have people that, a l- a girl

that was in a just very up, her father

271

was a minister or preacher, whatever,

in the church, and she had really bad

272

things happen from people in the church.

273

And so she was like

ostracized and kicked out.

274

And like divorce was not okay

even though she was abused.

275

Yeah.

276

And like all kinds of stuff.

277

But it's hard too when you throw

in that religious aspect of it.

278

Because when you have that kind

of chaotic mess in your life, so

279

many people turn to religion or

turn to God or their spirituality.

280

And if that is, was a driving

force of the beliefs of your

281

parents per se That's tough.

282

It is.

283

One way I had a friend who described this

as actually like having a third parent.

284

You've got your two parents, but

then you've got this very strong

285

religious framework that's quite

hard to quarrel with because it

286

sounds so, so ordained by God.

287

And so you feel like you c- gotta

show that you can be on board with

288

that because otherwise they will

sideline you, they will marginalize

289

you, they will disapprove of you.

290

So i- this whole thing about the

problem we have as kids is that we

291

are trying to keep our parents close.

292

We're trying to be on board with

them so they won't abandon us, but

293

at the same time, we're compromising

ourselves when we do that.

294

And so i- it's just so

blooming complicated.

295

Human is a complex, humanity is complex.

296

Flat out- That is true … it just it is.

297

That is true.

298

So talk about when you did leave and you

had to start here you are, you step out.

299

You said you were 29 or- I was 35.

300

You were 35.

301

I was 35, and I had not been to college.

302

And I had a little bit of money from

my mother's father, so I thought I

303

could l- launch into a college degree.

304

I had very little knowledge of how

the American college system worked,

305

the, that my father was Scottish.

306

We had lived in Scotland for all my

high school education, so but then

307

we'd come back to America, so here

I was and I really was so outside of

308

my culture, but I didn't know that.

309

And so I thought because I'd done pretty

well in school, I was a bit of a nerd in

310

school, so that college wouldn't be that

hard for me, which at some level it wasn't

311

when it just came to doing the work.

312

But the sort of social side

of this is a sort of…

313

And then the fact that you're

supposed to be trying to figure

314

out a future for yourself.

315

You're trying to find a career,

but you're also trying to find what

316

is etched in your heart because

you've never been quite sure.

317

And so this whole thing about whether

a career really comes out of some

318

deep personal desire or whether that's

just a lot of hogwash and you should

319

just get on and find something to

do that will earn you some money.

320

All of these questions are

surrounding you, but you don't

321

know how to ask them, and so you're

just going one step at a time.

322

And I guess that's really the way all of

us live in the world, is our lives are

323

a process of kind of exploration, seeing

where we fit, doing things because other

324

people seem to think they're a good idea,

then realizing that's not a good idea

325

for me, then going on to the next idea.

326

And it's just that all got going

rather late for me, and I think you

327

asked what it was like to leave.

328

Coming out, I think I thought that, okay,

the group of people I was with seemed to

329

have not been as right as they thought

they were about what is the secret to

330

living, but there must be somebody else

out there who's got the secret to living.

331

So if I just look around a

while, I'll find someone else.

332

And so I, in exploring I began to

realize how we're all groping in

333

the dark, and nobody's got the,

nobody's got the true answer.

334

And so that is a powerful revelation,

and for me I call that recognizing

335

that I'm in the wilderness.

336

And that I just have to thank

God for the wilderness, because

337

that's the way it's gonna feel,

so I might as well get used to it.

338

And even if it makes me feel anxious

to recognize that there's this

339

reality to life, that's when you're

really living, because you're not

340

trying to pretend something anymore.

341

And that's the heart of everything

I do, because so many of us

342

are putting on this mask.

343

We wake up in the morning and we're

like, slap the mask on that society,

344

our parents, our grandparents, our

situations, our experiences has told

345

us, "You're gonna be this, you're

gonna do this, you're gonna say

346

this, you're gonna act this way."

347

And it's when you start peeking out from

under the mask, it's okay- Who am I?

348

And- … like I was mentioning right

before we got on here, 50, 50 to 65

349

years old, and all of a sudden all these

people are like, "Who the hell am I?"

350

What do I like to do

outside of what I was told?

351

I don't know how many people

come to me and I'm like, "Oh,

352

what made you be a doctor?"

353

I don't know how many people will say

my dad was a doctor and he told me

354

I would, he would pay for my medical

school so I would be a doctor."

355

I'm like, "Do you like being a doctor?"

356

And, "No, I never wanted to be a doctor."

357

I'm like, oh my gosh.

358

Yeah.

359

So at 55 to 65 years old it's like

this whole open- opening up of I'm

360

gonna do what fricking lights me up.

361

Yes.

362

And that's what we all- It- … deserve

really at the end of the day.

363

We do, but then even figuring out

what lights us up is a little harder

364

to find than just saying, "Okay, I'm

gonna flick that switch," so you have

365

to try a few things and- Yep … yep.

366

I feel like you were almost blessed in

that you did start that whole process

367

later, because I feel so bad for kids

that go into college at 19 now and are 18,

368

and have to know what they quote unquote

"wanna do for the rest of their lives."

369

Because if you didn't know at 35, can

you imagine these kids coming out of

370

high school and having to know at 18?

371

Oh I know.

372

Of course in the United States I, I

think a lot of people go to college

373

without knowing what they're doing.

374

They're postponing figuring that out.

375

And but we don't really prepare

them for this process very well.

376

I th- I think that the messages that they

get, that we all got from our parents,

377

from our professors, from whoever were

the people who were mentoring us as we

378

went along, and I don't, I'm not saying

that anybody really ever mentored me.

379

That's the truth of the matter.

380

But people who seemed to applaud me from

a distance they're n- really not telling

381

me what it's like to figure out your life.

382

And certainly for a woman, I think

the idea that she's gonna get married

383

to a man who's figured out his life,

that was the way it was presented.

384

And so I wasn't finding a man to marry,

so that was a problem too, because

385

the pressure was on me in some way

that was completely non-traditional.

386

It's hard to describe that now

because of course women in, in our

387

world are not subjected to that form

of energy in quite the way it was

388

presented to us in olden times, but-

Yeah, much d- much different now.

389

Much.

390

Much different.

391

Yeah.

392

Yeah.

393

Back then p- k- they were getting

married at 15, 16, 17, and

394

that just was the way it was.

395

That was it, yes.

396

Yeah.

397

Yeah.

398

So talk about your process.

399

How did you discover what you loved and

start really trying to- … decide who you

400

were and figure out who, who is Margaret?

401

F- first of all, I gotta say the process

never ends, so let's not kid ourselves.

402

Yeah.

403

I realize that it took a long time

to dismantle some of my expectations

404

maybe particularly maybe where men

were concerned that, that sort of,

405

I really thought that I'd find some

man who would solve it all for me.

406

So even though I was willing to have

a job and do things for myself, I

407

still didn't know how to be inner

directed about myself, and so that

408

was a hard process to go through.

409

I feel like what was remarkable in the

man whom I did marry, and I, and we

410

got married not that long ago finally

was that I didn't feel I had to put on

411

any pretense at all because he was not

putting on any pretense about himself.

412

And at, at some level that was a

little bit disappointing because I

413

wanted to feel he was aspiring to

great things and so on and so forth.

414

It was like he want- I wanted him to still

to be playing some game I was playing.

415

And then I realized he was just so

determined not to play that game, just

416

to do things because he liked doing them.

417

So you know, he loves cooking and

I thought that I was a good cook,

418

so one of the f- things I had to do

was to give, give way to him in the

419

kitchen, and to enjoy cooking together.

420

And that has actually been fun

that we do that as a common task.

421

So we enjoy that.

422

We also enjoy music.

423

We sing with a choral group.

424

We and having people to our house.

425

That's part of the cooking thing I guess.

426

But I think we really genuinely do

getting to know people and trying to

427

get to know people in our own setting

so that we know about our homes as well

428

as talking to people at restaurants

or at parties and things like that.

429

So we're probably seem a bit old-fashioned

in, in the way that we I think really

430

have decided that our lives are

gonna be about genuine connection,

431

and looking for how you do that.

432

And I think that's what the

world is missing right now.

433

It's absolutely missing right now.

434

And honestly, because of all the

abandonment, and I, I deal with

435

mostly people from a trauma lens.

436

Yeah.

437

So because of all the abandonment

and everything else, connection, and

438

I was just talking to someone about

this right before we got on here,

439

connection to that person, that feel,

that idea of connection was scary.

440

Yeah.

441

It wasn't safe.

442

Fair enough.

443

So- Fair enough … he was talking

about me and Neville Goddard, and

444

you know- the best thing you can

do is visualize your future self

445

and step into that future self.

446

And, he was like I, why can't

I step into this future me?"

447

And I said, "Because the future you of

being 100% connected with all these great

448

relationships scares the crap out of you."

449

Yeah.

450

So when you're coming from that lens

of trauma and dysfunction and chaos,

451

you have to back it up a little bit and

take it a little slower because when

452

connection is scary, you, like you said,

you weren't even connected to yourself.

453

Exactly.

454

Exactly.

455

And so I'm still trying to figure out

what this is really, and as, as I did

456

train to be a mental health counselor.

457

I haven't worked exclusively in that

area, but I was aware that everything

458

I was thinking about and writing

about was so connected to that.

459

But I do think that in this country where

we have such a obvious crisis of mental

460

health and of connection, that we all have

to learn how to do this for each other in

461

kind of natural ways rather than having

to go to a therapist's office and do this.

462

Yeah.

463

And so I feel like I'd like to be part of

a process that explores how you do that.

464

I- That's what I want from my life.

465

And that sounds that's amazing.

466

And I tell people I'm very

energy/frequency oriented.

467

I truly believe the one thing,

if you get nothing out of meeting

468

Tammy, you will understand that the

energy that you put into the world

469

is the energy that you get back.

470

So connection is, if you're sitting

there and you're looking at this

471

brand new relationship or brand new

person, person with doubt, fear-

472

Not, lack of discernment, criticism,

or anything like that, those are

473

the people you're gonna connect.

474

They're gonna come at you with that

same energy, or else they're not

475

gonna want anything to do with you.

476

So- … I am always constantly

trying to tweak people's mindset as

477

far as curiosity versus judgment.

478

Curiosity versus- That's wonderful.

479

That's wonderful.

480

The whole idea of attunement of how

we find that we're m- emotionally

481

aware of where the other person

is, that's something that I didn't

482

grow up understanding at all.

483

No.

484

And so every human interaction seemed

a little bit like billiard balls

485

hitting each other and bouncing

off, but you w- weren't exploring

486

what was going on below the surface.

487

And so yes I'm grateful that to live in

a time where we've come to understand

488

that better, but it's so interesting

that even though we understand this

489

better, the problems seem to be

getting greater rather than less.

490

And so this is the conundrum of our time.

491

What would you think…

492

I have my theories about why this is,

and it just goes down to the work I do.

493

But what would you think, just

throwing out there something, what

494

do you think the reason is for

that, that, the lack of connection?

495

I think that there's been very rapid

social change on so many different fronts.

496

So the- there is a way in which the

world is much less predictable, I

497

think, for young people as they're

growing up in their families and in

498

their school situations, et cetera.

499

Then social media has added to that.

500

I, I think that the sense of-

Unpredictability is going to create

501

more anxiety, and so how do we have

kind of predictable relationships?

502

I and that doesn't mean they have

to be boring, but that we know that

503

we can count on people in our lives.

504

And so we need more rituals

more events where we do things.

505

But I don't want to pretend

that we all know how to do this.

506

We've got a big, a, a

lot of learning to do.

507

Yep, we really do.

508

Love to hear how you answer this, Tammy.

509

How do you answer this?

510

I even forgot the question.

511

It was really about why do we have so

much mental health crisis or so much

512

dysfunction- the lack of connection.

513

And I think I was going back to

a lot of it is the social thing.

514

I think a lot of it is the fact that

all of our connections, or not all of

515

them, but we're now so ingrained in

having these superficial connections

516

that we don't even know a true

one when it hits us, first of all.

517

But I use my kids' rela- I, I use my

kids dating as an example all the time.

518

And we used to when, and I'm sure you

unders- you know, when you wanted to

519

go on a date or you wanted to go out

with a guy or you thought a guy liked

520

you when you were in high school or

whatever, you would sit by the phone

521

on a Saturday night and do nothing

but read a book, enjoy your time with

522

yourself, and hope that he calls, right?

523

Now, I said, you start…

524

I watched this with my

kids and it drove me crazy.

525

You would literally be talking 24/7

on the phone, texting back and forth

526

with this person while you were

out doing the rest of your life.

527

Yes.

528

And so by the time you actually, let's

just say, even started to have some

529

kind of physical connection, which

normally would normally take a really

530

long time because you went on several

dates before you got to know the person,

531

by the time you even get into that bo-

that area, you've connected, "connected"

532

quote-unquote, you see my air quotes,

with this person for hundreds of hours,

533

but you don't really even know them.

534

You've never physically sat down.

535

You know what I'm saying?

536

Does that make sense?

537

I totally do, yeah.

538

Oh, my, and I watched it with my kids

and I was like, oh, my God, literally

539

he, my son is out at football games and

doing things with his buddies and hanging

540

out and having fun, and meanwhile just

texting the girl to kinda appease her.

541

That wasn't connection.

542

And I was like, "What is happening?"

543

I just, I was like, and you,

they take it for granted.

544

So we got in this world

of instant gratification.

545

We got, so much stuff has just

changed so much and- I don't know.

546

I just, I think we don't…

547

And now, people come to me.

548

Every single day somebody approaches

me, a company approaches me that

549

says, "Tammy, we can clone you

and your business can skyrocket.

550

A fake person can get on the

internet and be you, and people

551

will come s- flocking to you."

552

I'm like, "Oh," and then they see me and

they're like, "Whoa, that's not you?"

553

I s- I say, we, we've…

554

It's, oh my gosh, I don't know.

555

I don't even know where

to begin to start with it.

556

It's the most frustrating thing.

557

But I'm like, I literally spent my

entire, I spend my entire life talking

558

to people about being unapologetically,

authentically themselves.

559

Yeah.

560

And then you wanna clone me and

let some other computer be me?

561

And those are the people I

want to pay me to help them?

562

I'm like, what, are you kidding me?

563

Oh my gosh, it's just crazy.

564

Huh.

565

Huh.

566

It's crazy.

567

Yeah.

568

But it seems- … you figured it out.

569

You got married.

570

You have those, those things.

571

So that's good.

572

But it- I got married three weeks

before my 70th birthday Oh, amen to

573

that … and for my first marriage.

574

And so there was something that

was it was a very wonderful day

575

and a wonderf- wonderful seven

years we've had since then.

576

We just had our seventh wedding

anniversary- Aw … a few days ago.

577

But there was also something painful

about that that somehow I felt this

578

was not the trajectory for my life that

I felt my parents would have wanted

579

for me or that I wanted for myself.

580

So I, having to come to terms with li-

with the fact that life has thrown me

581

things that I didn't expect, made it

harder for me than I thought, even though

582

I feel there are many millions of people

who have much harder life than I do.

583

But still, it's this sort of existential

fact that it's not going the way I

584

thought it should, and now I have

to figure out what to do about it.

585

That moment of truth, which I think

is what you're describing with these

586

different people who suddenly reach 50 or

whatever it is and thinking, "Who am I?"

587

And so on and so forth.

588

So it's refreshing to get to grips

with that, but it's also scary.

589

And- It really is.

590

And I- But we support each other.

591

Yeah.

592

And it really is scary.

593

And like I said, those people, they do.

594

And I ask, I tell them every day,

wake up and you have to start

595

In order to know what you need to stop

and ask yourself, "What do I need?"

596

And I tell people, wake up every

morning and just be like, "What

597

do I need today that would make me

1% more at ease in my own body?"

598

Because literally that's where we're

running around in like dis-ease.

599

We're out of alignment with our own truth,

with our own wanting, with our own needs.

600

And it's like, what's one per-

thing … i'm l- living in a

601

one-bedroom apartment right here.

602

I've been married for 25 years and my

husband is over across town, but for

603

the last two years I've been waking up

and saying, "Tammy, what do you need?

604

Because you just have this

unsettled, like I don't even know."

605

And I kept saying to myself, "Space."

606

space.

607

So I've got space right now.

608

It's really small space.

609

It's a one-bedroom apartment

shared with a bunch of girls I

610

don't know, but- … it's okay.

611

But it's finally okay, now I'm

back to that time that I used

612

to have where I could sit and

go, "Okay, what do I like to do?

613

What do I wanna do on my day off?"

614

"Do I still like to read books?

615

Do I…"

616

What is this new…"

617

Not even a new me.

618

What is the me that used to

be before life lifed on me?

619

I think one thing that we're all

very afraid of is space that we

620

all feel we have to keep busy.

621

And I think there's something in our

culture that seems to reinforce that idea.

622

So the, the idea of imposing some

space on ourselves, whether it's

623

through meditation, through just going

physically to some place where you're

624

not interacting with other people, and

getting used to being just centered

625

in some way is a great exercise just

so that we stop being afraid of that.

626

It's funny you said that.

627

I just m- had T-shirts made up.

628

I was trying to think of a way to support

adult children in a kind of fun way, and

629

so I made up these T-shirts and it said,

"Only an adult child," which is an adult,

630

for those of you listening, if you've not

listened to any of my episodes before, you

631

would know that adult child is kinda short

for adult child of dysfunctional families

632

or alcoholics or whatever that kind of…

633

The dysfunction is all the same.

634

Umbrellaed adult child of dysfunction.

635

And it says, "Only adult child

would understand," and then it's

636

"I say yes when I wanna say no."

637

And one of the things I put, and

I've only picked four of all of the

638

concepts that I coach and teach on,

was- … stillness feels uncomfortable.

639

How interesting … isn't that?

640

And it's, and people read that,

and they go, "You're right."

641

And that's because of

that trauma response.

642

Yeah.

643

It's because of that hypervigilance.

644

It's because of if I'm not doing,

I'm not performing, I'm not…

645

Then something, then I'm not worthy.

646

I'm not good.

647

I'm not doing what I was programmed to do.

648

Yes.

649

And it is an amazing concept, and it

took me probably, ugh, years before I

650

could sit on my bed with my legs crossed,

crisscross applesauce, and just be still.

651

It was so- … violently uncomfortable,

'cause I would be like, "Oh my God."

652

My r- my mind would start racing.

653

I couldn't do it.

654

It was years before I could do

that, and a lot of practice.

655

And now I have absolutely no problem

sitting on my bed, putting my phone

656

down, turning off the light, shutting the

door, and sitting on my bed for an hour.

657

But I guarantee if anybody is

out there that wants to challenge

658

themselves, see how long you can

do it before it gets uncomfortable.

659

And you'll feel it in your body,

because every single thing that's

660

going on is in your body, in

every single cell of your tissues.

661

You'll feel that uncomfortableness

But it just to decide to do it for 15

662

minutes every day, even if it does feel

uncomfortable, even if your mind wanders,

663

but just knowing that you're gonna do

that every day for not too long, but

664

a, a reasonable amount of time, that's

a way to start a different rhythm.

665

Yep.

666

St- and absolutely, and then

it cha- and you start to get

667

kinda safe in your own body.

668

Wow.

669

Yeah.

670

Yeah, I…

671

And that's- Exactly.

672

Exactly … that's what we do.

673

We're all here just trying to

be safe in our own bodies, and

674

feeling it's okay to be me.

675

It's okay to sit with who I am.

676

I'm not, my worth is not based on what

other people, society, the groups you

677

were in, the, those over, whatever

you call them, you used the word,

678

but those controlling c- type groups

or just- Yes, authoritarian groups,

679

controlling- Authoritarian, yeah

680

people.

681

Yeah.

682

Like- yes.

683

Sure … they make you who you think you

are, but it's not necessarily who you are.

684

So yeah, I love it.

685

I love it.

686

I c- is your book already out?

687

Yes.

688

So my new book The Spectacular

Inheritance, it just came

689

out officially on the 11th.

690

Oh.

691

So today it's the 19th, so that's just

a week and a day or something like that.

692

Okay.

693

And so I'm going around doing

book talks about it and so on.

694

And this organization that my parents

worked for actually was the place

695

where Alcoholics Anonymous first

formed, and then the people who

696

were doing that part of it separated

themselves from the organization.

697

So there is an AA element in the book.

698

Also, the youth music group Up With People

I don't know if you've heard of that.

699

You don't look like you

recognize that name.

700

No.

701

But anyway, the, it's a sort of

it's a program for kids to be in

702

a musical show betw- in a year

between high school and college.

703

Oh, okay.

704

And it has been a lot of fun

and a sort of mind-blowing

705

experience for many young people.

706

But it grew out of the same organization.

707

So I'm in part trying to tell a little

bit of the story of the people in this

708

organization and their hopes to change

the world, and how things worked and

709

how things didn't work, and all of that.

710

So that's all wound into the story, too.

711

That's great.

712

And the story of the camp, just

whatever you said, that year between

713

after high school with the music- yeah

714

and the theater.

715

Science will tell you there is

absolutely no better way of healing

716

past woes than expressing them in

some way, whether it's speaking,

717

writing, drama, acting, whatever it is.

718

That's- There you go.

719

There you go It's an emotional

physiological release of that trauma

720

when you can just express yourself.

721

That's true.

722

Yeah.

723

That's true.

724

Love it.

725

Huh.

726

You have the book.

727

Do you…

728

Tell us if, do you talk to people

one on one, or what is your…

729

Do you just- I'm I am doing

podcasts with people like you.

730

I'm also we are setting up

various book talks where I invite

731

a group from the community.

732

So I did one on the day of the launch.

733

And so I give some background to the book.

734

The book is, operates on many levels,

'cause, of course, it's about a

735

woman going out to have a kind of

second coming of age when she's 35.

736

And so that's one story in the book.

737

It's also about my parents' trauma and

how I r- get into a clearer relationship

738

with our family's story, and- Love it

739

the way that memoir works to write

a family story, but to also find

740

some healing from family trauma.

741

And then the third thing is the whole

question of how can ordinary people make

742

a difference in the world, and th- that

was a big topic in the world I grew up in.

743

And so I learned a few things

that I wanted to impart

744

along the way about that too.

745

So it's it's a book that I think would

be great for book groups and so on,

746

because there's so many different

things you can discuss in this book.

747

Yeah.

748

I'm actually looking forward to it.

749

I have, oh my gosh, with so many podcast

hosts that have books, I have literally

750

stacks of 10 foot- I bet you do, yes.

751

I have so many books that

people are constantly…

752

Every day I open my email, and it's

like, "Hey, does she wanna come on?

753

And here's her book to read."

754

So I'm like, "Oh, gosh."

755

But I usually get through the f-

I just have hundreds of books.

756

But but yeah, no.

757

And it's…

758

That's awesome.

759

And I'm curious to read it, because

we all need those, those tips and

760

those tricks and everything else.

761

This was super fun having you on.

762

I'm excited.

763

Oh, and I will put the links

to your books and everything-

764

Great … in the show notes.

765

Before you leave, though

you're not off the hook yet.

766

But first of all, thank you for coming.

767

Appreciate you.

768

And before you leave, if you could

give the world or listeners we're in 45

769

different countries now, so that's nice.

770

So it is kinda like the world.

771

Yeah.

772

One message or words of advice or

words of wisdom, what would it be?

773

Be true to yourself and

find connection Amen.

774

Yeah Thanks for asking that question.

775

And the question is then how

to live it out but that's what

776

all of us are trying to do.

777

And so finding each other and

making it work better, I guess

778

that's what it's all about, Tammy,

so thank You are very welcome.

779

And for everybody else out

there listening, you heard it.

780

I- you've heard me say it 1,000 times,

but now you're hearing Margaret say it.

781

Margaret Eastman, she's

saying, "Be true to yourself.

782

Find true connection.

783

Ask yourself," and I'm just gonna

add, ask yourself, does it feel right?

784

And if your body clenches or you

feel some kind of physiological

785

response, that is your truth.

786

We have to start learning to listen to it.

787

And listen to your body, listen to

your mind, and know that you deserve,

788

I 100%, Margaret, I'm sure you're

gonna agree with me, you deserve

789

to have those good connections.

790

It doesn't matter if you're

20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, or 105.

791

You deserve to have them.

792

So if you did- haven't had them,

it's never too late to start.

793

So thank you all.

794

Thank you.

795

Yes.

796

Love it, Tammy.

797

Love it All the best to you.

798

Thank you so much, and you

all have a blessed week, and

799

we will see you back soon