Tung style acupuncture is known for its curious collection of points that can be a challenge to the mind for those of us that learned to think about acupuncture strictly from a channel or function perspective. 

The methods handed down from Master Tung invite us to think about the resonance between points, structures, locations and tissue. It encourages us to consider not just the Spleen channel, but why its helpful to think of it as the leg tai yin as well. As well as why the shoulder is like the hip, and overlapping areas of influence can make for a more potent acupuncture treatment. 

Listen in as we discuss the power of resonance, how unlearning is part of learning something new, and why you don't have to understand everything from the beginning, but it's helpful if you keep pushing yourself to find the threads that connect.

Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview. 

The medicine of east Asia is based on a science that does not hold

itself separate from the phenomenon that it seeks to understand our

medicine did not grow at a Petri dish experimentation or a double blind studies.

It arose from observing nature and our part in it.

East Asian medicine evolves not from the examination of dead structures, but

rather from living systems with their complex mutually entangled interactions.

Welcome to chia logical.

I'm Michael max, the host of this podcast that goes in depth on issues,

pertinent to practitioners and students of east Asian medicine, dialogue and

discussion have always been elemental to Chinese and other east Asian medicines.

Listening to these conversations with experienced practitioners that go

deep into how this ancient medicine is alive and unfolding in modern clinic.

Hey everybody.

Welcome back to Sheila.

My guest today is Henry McCann.

Henry

is the author of two books, one on dome sure.

Acupuncture, which is going to be the subject of our show today.

And another one on bloodletting, which actually has a lot to do

with the Doncaster acupuncture.

It's part of that tradition as well.

He teaches all over the United States and in particular at picalm in New York

city, he also teaches at a couple of doctorate programs, one in Portland,

the other one in the bay area, and also travels internationally to teach

people about dong style acupuncture.

So I'm very excited to have him on the show today, and we're going to get deep

and geeky into this particular aspect and tradition of acupuncture, Henry.

Welcome to chill out.

Thank you.

Thank you so much for having beyond looking forward to the conversation.

Yeah, me too.

I'm curious.

And I often ask this of people at the beginning.

How did you find your way into this particular aspect of acupuncture?

I mean, there's so many different parts of our tradition.

What drew you to the dome style?

You know, uh, it, to some extent, I think a lot of us sort of

fall into places, uh, parked by.

By dumb luck by, uh, or, you know, if you don't, if you don't like to dumb

luck and whatever sort of resonance maybe we have in from whatever, for whatever

reason, uh, you know, I had without really knowing it had been exposed to some of

the ideas in dogs acupuncture from one of my early teachers, I initially trained

at the new England school of acupuncture.

And one of our early teachers, uh, was a, uh, was a Taiwanese acupuncturist.

Um, and you know, if you're probably most of your listeners know, but

if they don't know, uh, master dome spent the last part of his life,

uh, living and practicing in Taiwan.

So his, his writings and his teachings were mostly first disseminated through

other time when he's acupuncturists, because he never taught outside.

He never taught in mainland China when he lived, when he was a younger person

before he, before he left for Taiwan after the, uh, after the war in the

middle of the 20th century, When I was in school, I was introduced to some of

the principles that we talk about quite a bit in terms of channel relationships and

ways of looking at connecting channels, even without it being sort of described

as being from a dome perspective.

So from very early on, I was predisposed to sort of looking

at acupuncture a certain way.

And then it was really just, uh, a series of coincidence is perhaps,

you know, uh, quite a long time ago, I found Mary Emily's book.

And when I first read it, I thought to myself, how could I have gone through

the professional acupuncture training program and all these other points

and all these other traditions exist?

Yeah.

I had never heard about them.

Right.

And I was fortunate enough to go through a training program where TCM was not the

only, uh, method of, of, of treatment that was taught, you know, the new England

school of acupuncture, uh, was very, was renowned for its very detailed in-depth

program in Japanese acupuncturist systems.

So very early on, I was predisposed to be sort of, to favor at least to

some extent non TCM systems and being comfortable with working within more

than one system at the same time.

Yeah.

It's kind of like being bilingual.

Yes, absolutely.

Without a doubt.

It definitely is.

Uh, and it's something that for me, was really foundational in that I was taught

to look at acupuncture from a number of different perspectives and not just,

you know, taught through, for example, just a quick CEU class, you know, it

was, it was an injury with the Japanese acupuncture was an integral part of

the training at the new England school.

And.

After reading Miriam Lee's book, I re I was frustrated that there could

be all this information out there that yet I had never heard of that

wasn't really being talked about much.

And so that sent me on a, on a, and this was the same with

my background in bloodletting.

You know, all these teachers talked about bloodletting, how

important it was, how great it was.

And yet in my own training, I had maybe half of one technique class

in three plus years of training.

And so how could it be such an important thing, but we spend

so little time on it, right?

It's almost like a little tease.

It's like, here's something you should know about it.

And, huh.

Well, Yeah, exactly.

And so, you know, that sort of led my exploration and then, you know, my later

drive to seek out whatever teachers I could seek out over the years to

eventually start getting whatever texts I could out of Taiwan, uh, and, and, and,

and China, and just to really sort of immerse myself in the system that way.

And so that's was my initial sort of foray into it.

All right.

We're going to get into some of that detail here, uh, of the dog system.

But before we do, because you know, so many people listening to this show,

maybe all they've been exposed to is, is the TCM, the textbook, the stuff that

we all need to learn, because there's a test that we have to pass and it, and

there's plenty of good stuff in the TCM.

It's not like it's wrong.

It's just one part of the tradition.

And yet it seems so often whatever we learn first, it kind of sticks and

it's often hard to shift and go beyond.

Our initial impressions or our initial learnings.

So before we get into learning some things about the dong system, what

would you say are some key elements or some key things that we probably have

to unlearn if we're going to really jump into the Doncaster system and

be able to learn something from it?

Yeah.

I mean, that's, it's a really good question.

Uh, and it's a really sort of, it's an important thing that you just identified

in that our early training, oftentimes.

Yeah.

Um, as a teacher myself, I hope that early training sets

the stage for later learning.

But the truth is for many people that early training is basically

where it starts and where it ends.

And, you know, I am, I want to be clear in saying that I don't think that TCM,

for example, as a systems approach to acupuncture in any way is bad.

You know, I think that every, every way of looking at it has

potential pluses and negatives.

And I think TCM is some of the best acupuncturists I've ever seen in

practice, uh, in terms of their ability to really treat disease

effectively have been TCM practitioners.

And so, you know, I agree with you that TCM is, is important for many reasons.

One of the things I like about TCM is that it tends to in its

theoretical model sample a number of other systems or a wide variety of,

for example, diagnostic paradigms, ways of looking at channels, way of

looking at ways of looking at Zang Fu.

So I think it gives people a fantastic grounding, you know, so to some

extent, I would say that there's really nothing we need to unlearn.

We just be basically be, we, we basically need to sort of train ourselves to look

at being able to analyze the material that's already there, perhaps from

different angles and perhaps in a more in-depth way, then it's given to the basic

training, you know, the textbooks, the basic textbooks are great, but I think

we need to keep in mind that they're just basic textbooks and they're there to give

us a beginning foundation and material from which we can springboard into a

deeper hope, hopefully understanding of, of what's what we're doing.

Therapeutically, you know, the, the only thing I would say, perhaps that

needs to be unlearned is that in my opinion, acupuncture and herbal medicine

are, did they don't exactly work.

A hundred percent the same they're there, they're there perhaps different myths.

There are different mechanisms of action.

There are different ways of accessing the body and for better, for worse

TCM, because of the emphasis on herbal medicine in mainland China today, in my

opinion tends to be more urban focused.

So when people are learning herbal medicine, I think TCM serves them better

when they're then when they're learning acupuncture as a standalone therapy.

So perhaps I think the big thing we need to unlearn is that acupuncture points

are not necessarily herbs and we can't, we can't necessarily see them as such.

Right, right.

That's a great distinction.

Acupuncture points are not.

Right.

They're not earth.

I mean, whenever I teach it, there are a couple of key examples that I give.

And, you know, like one of the examples I give is I asked people

like what kidney too does, you know?

So what does, what does the main function of Runco of kidney to, and

they all over the world, whenever I've asked this question, all the TCM

students always say the clears like clears, uh, the acuity fire clears,

empty heat, something like that.

Right.

Which yes it does.

But if we go back and look at the traditional list of indications

for that point, we in, we see included for example, conditions

like fifth watch diarrhea, right?

Which last time I checked, it doesn't really come from a kidney insufficiency.

It comes from some sort of problem in the young and the

heating aspect of the kidney.

So we can see that kidney two has some sort of, sort of regulating.

On the kidney channel and its relationship to fire phase, because it's an ink

spring point, it's a fire point.

So it can go both ways, right?

It doesn't only have to treat a problem of a union sufficiency.

It can regulate the kidney relationship with fire.

And there isn't really a single herb, for example, that warms the

kidney young, as well as clear as acuity heat at the same time.

Right.

Right.

So it's, so to some extent, it's, it's just different when putting a needle in

kidney two is not like giving someone an herbal formula or even a single herb.

So I think that perhaps, and it's not only for learning dog's acupuncture, I

think to really be a good acupuncturist.

I think that's one of the first things we need to sort of not necessarily unlearn,

but re perhaps evaluate on a little bit deeper level, if that makes sense.

And it doesn't make sense.

Well, and I like the way that you point out is the ink spring point.

It's the Firepoint on the kidney channel.

And so.

Whenever you're thinking about kidney and fire issues, or even

water issues to some degree, right?

Cause fire and water have that kind of a relationship.

You can begin to look into these kinds of residences.

This is, and this is one of the things I love about the dunker share acupuncture

is it's so much based on resonance, right?

And that word resonance to me is very important, right?

Because this is in my opinion, at peak I'm in New York city, I teach classical texts.

And you know, sometimes I think to myself, when I'm teaching books like the naming

in particular, maybe not the, maybe not the Nanjing, but the naming definitely.

I think to myself, is this a book of medicine that talks about cosmology?

And the cosmological discussion is all about this idea of resonance, right?

Like how we as humans resonate with the natural world, how that really

impacts us, you know, sort of in our interaction with others interaction,

with the weather interaction, with the natural world or our interaction

sort of within ourselves, right.

The organ interaction with, with other workings points, with Oregon's

points of channels, et cetera.

Right.

So it's all about this idea of resonance.

And so sometimes I think maybe books, like the Neijing really are medical

books about cosmology and resonance.

But sometimes I think, you know, they're probably really first and foremost books

about cosmology and resonance and oh, by the way, here's how we apply that to

medicine, because this is really how it all works well, given the way that Chinese

thinking seems to work, it's both hands.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I, I, yeah, totally.

No, I completely agree with you on that one without a doubt.

So yeah.

Okay.

So.

I've studied a little bit of the Doescher acupuncture.

All right.

I, I, through the books and, and even I spent a little time with

a practitioner where I lived in Taiwan, which was interesting.

Cause it was a, it was literally a bloody mess in there.

I'm sure it was, oh my God.

This guy would, uh, yeah, he would often believe the back and then stick

cups on there with continuous suction or was, it was, um, yeah, it was a

bloodborne pathogen nightmare in there, but, but you know, really interesting.

And um, so one of the things that to me is so interesting.

Again, we're looking at residents, we're looking at the various tiger

cheese that we can see the body through.

And there's a number of ways of imaging the body through the various tigers.

It's a great idea.

And I've found for myself in my own clinical practice,

sometimes I get confused.

Which Tigie am I working with?

And actually, when should I be working with which one know there

are certain times you want to use the greater Tigie or there's certain times

you want to use the smaller ones.

Are there any guidelines or ways of thinking about how do we start

to orient ourselves to looking at these particular residences?

I mean, this is, this is a really good question.

And, you know, uh, first, before I, before I even sort of delve into that

question, I want to be clear that when master don't himself taught in Taiwan,

he really didn't talk much theory.

Right.

And so he was a very traditional sort of teacher in that you really sort of

followed him, watch what he did and, you know, he would admonish people to

sort of think about it for themselves.

All of the theory that we have, that we talk about comes from the, the

sort of the thoughtful analysis by his students and his students, students.

Right?

So there are a number of different ways to look at dome system because

master don't himself never really.

I mean, he, he gave us hints and I think some of the hints are embedded within

the system itself, but he never came out in his, in his own books that he wrote,

basically, they were just texts where it said, here's the points location.

Here's what it treats and that's it.

Right.

That's very Shanghai finish, isn't it?

Yeah.

It very, very much is honestly it very much is.

And we, perhaps we can, you know, eventually we'll, we'll go into that.

Uh, you know, that idea of how we just see medicine as an endeavor, but,

you know, even before that, so when we're looking at the theory associated

with drugs, acupuncture, there are lots of different ways of doing it.

You know, to some extent that's fine.

Because even in our classical texts, there are lots of different approaches

where we can look at the same sort of material through different lenses.

So the lens that I choose to look at things is this lens of these, of channel

connections of imaging resonances.

Right?

Because this, for me, it makes sense.

And I think when I'm teaching it to other people, it makes it

easier for people to sort of grasp.

Right.

So then, so that's the first piece of the, the, the, disclaimer, I guess the,

the question that you brought up of what image or what way of looking at it is

best or which one are we triggering?

To some extent, one of the answers I think is that they're all different ways.

There are lots of different ways that the body can be mapped out onto itself.

There are different sort of connections in the body, how channels connect to other

channels, how channels connect to, to the Jong organs, et cetera, to some extent.

There's not one best way of looking at things.

So when we're really trying to learn the system, in my opinion, there are

two basic angles we need to look at.

One of the basic angles is what are all of the theoretical connections that

we see going on that we can describes?

For example, how does this one channel connect to that channel?

Or how does the hand connect to the head?

Or how does the foot connect to the hand or the head?

That's one way of looking at it.

The other way of looking at it is simply looking at what the points have been

used traditionally to treat, right?

So not every point treats everything equally, right?

And so we know, even from TCM, there are certain points that I would call

heavy hitters that really sort of have a wide ranging effect, both

in terms of symptom management, as well as it's on Fu regulation.

And some that are maybe only really for symptomatic management, they don't

have wide ranging regulatory effects.

Right.

So when we're looking at the theory, it's not that we can't also, or not

what that we can get away with only looking at the theory of what point

maps to this area of the body without also looking at what these points were

traditionally used for at the same time.

Does that make sense?

Yes.

So the reason I teach the theory is so that we have a better understanding of why

the points are doing what they're doing.

So the theory is a way to help us understand and keep the points in

our head at any one given time or another, it kind of orients us.

It does.

Right?

So when we're looking at, you know, what image am I trying to trigger?

To some extent the, the real answer is what point am I using?

And why am I using that point?

Or why is this point say better for digestive problems in this

other point for digestive problems?

Or why is this point better for pain management than this other point for

pain management in this part of the body?

That's one piece of it.

The other piece of it is I do believe that the more ways we can get a

point to resonate with a con with a certain area of the buyer condition,

the stronger that resonance is.

So if I can get a, uh, you know, to take a TCM point for example, right?

So it's a good point.

Like to suddenly like stomach 36 classic, of course.

And yeah, and it's a heavy hitter because there's so many

different ways of resonating with the things that are treats.

So just looking at digestive problems in both.

So for example, we talk about different ways of mapping, uh, points onto the body.

Stomach.

36 can be mapped into the area of the spleen stomach, through all the

different sort of image resonances that, that we teach or that.

Right.

So looking at what I call the large Tigie the medium Tigie and the

small Tigie, all of them can map stomach 36 to the digestive organs.

Stomach 36 is in an area of thick flesh on tibialis, anterior,

depending on where you're needling it.

So needling it into needling, into areas of thick flesh.

Also have a resonance with the earth phase, spleen stomach.

We know this because the, the, the chapter and the link shoe chapter seven,

all the different needle techniques has a discussion of the five needle

methods that match to the five tissues.

In other words, the flesh, the sinew, the bone, the vessels, and

the skin, as well as the dong organs.

So needling into flesh treats, disorders of flesh, as well as

treats disorders of spleen stomach.

Right?

So all of those different types of resonances, we can match stomach

36 to the digestive organs.

So because there's resonance after residents after resonance

and oh, by the way, it's on.

And earth phase channel, and it's an earth point on an earth phase channel.

All of it gets us into the area of spleen stomach.

So because there's so much resonance, there's so much deep connection.

It it's like, how can it not work?

I mean, that's, I mean, when I look at a point like that, I think

how can it possibly not work for all of these specific indications?

So rather than looking at, which is the best way to map something, my,

my way of thinking is always, how can I really see if that's a very

strong mapping or a strong resonance on multiple layers at the same time?

Right?

So you're looking at channels, you're looking at five element you're

looking at, you know, is it fleshy?

Is it not fleshy as it's sinewy?

And you're also looking at, at all, like the anti

correspondence is all at the same.

Yes.

And you know, so one of the things that I tell what I, when I teach a class in

dogs, acupuncture, what I tell them is that for me, you know, personally, I

don't really, I mean, it may be heresy in certain circles to say this, but I

don't really believe there's such a thing.

As, you know, dogs, acupuncture or Japanese acupuncture, Korean

acupuncture, Chinese acupuncture, DCM acupuncture, to me with all these

different sort of systems, approach to acupuncture are our different ways

of prioritizing treatment strategy.

What do I start with?

You know, what do I do first?

What do I do?

Second?

What is my order of operations?

What's the algorithm that I go through to effect a change in the diseased

circulation of chia and blood in the area that I'm targeting, whether it's an

organ, whether it's a part of the body.

So for me, and what I tell my students is that they basically have to remember.

And put into practice, all of the weird little details that we taught

them in, in acupuncture points.

One are fundamentals one.

They have to know all of the basic correspondences.

They have to understand five phase.

They have to understand all of the, the channels, where they go, what

they do and all of the, basically the five shoe points, the antique points.

If they can do that, then they can use it flexibly.

And so if they're a good TCM practitioner, they should be able to look at

Doug's acupuncture and say, oh, I understand exactly what they're doing.

May not be how I do it, but I understand what they're doing.

And if you're a good practitioner of domes acupuncture should be able to look

at the Japanese systems and say, oh, I totally understand what they're doing.

May not be my preferred strategy, but I understand what they're trying to do.

Right.

Because we're all looking at the same model.

Yeah, exactly.

And I, so I also tell people, and sometimes this gets me into trouble

and, you know, maybe you'll get angry emails later about this, but I think

there there's, there's, you know, I don't think there's such thing as even

like classical acupuncture versus modern acupuncture or the, I like this type of

system versus this type of type of system.

I think there's acupuncture done well, and there's acupuncture done,

not so well, acupuncture done well takes basically its source as the

core theories that we discussed in books like the aging and the Nanjing.

Right.

And because if we truly believe there's a channel system, if we truly believe

in, in young and five phases and not just pay lip service to it, then it must

underlie everything we do with the needle.

Right.

And if we don't believe in it, then it's fine and it's a different discussion.

But if we believe in it, then we have to be able to sort of take all that

information into play in what we're doing.

And so good acupuncture makes reference to all of these theories and all

these ideas and uses it flexibly.

And I don't care if it's a modern approach like scalp acupuncture, or if

it's an approach it's been around for a long time, it's either good because it

one, it works effectively in the clinic.

And the reason I think it works effectively in the clinic is because it

really sort of takes into consideration these core ideas of how the universe

works and how our body works.

If that makes sense.

No, it totally makes sense.

I'm thinking.

And it's, it's mostly because I'm kind of a lazy person.

And over the years in my own study of acupuncture, I mean, yes, of course,

I've, I've read through the classic stuff, especially when I was in school

and you learn all the points and indications and those kinds of things,

and then you, and then I find that I get into a clinic and it's like, oh my God.

Now, what do I do?

And it's hope it's been helpful, at least in the beginning to have some

kind of shorthand or some kind of like, oh my God, where do I start?

Well, I can start here.

And again, because I'm a lazy person, I've often looked for shortcuts along the way.

It's like, is there a way that I can like jumpstart and get really

good at this without having to put all this minutia into play?

And one of the things that I've enjoyed about like the, the balanced method,

you know, the Dr Tom's stuff and the, in the dome shirt to some extent is

it's allowed me to orient in a way where maybe I don't understand something,

but if I can tune in to a certain aspect, oh, I've got an elbow problem.

Let me think about the knee.

Oh, we've got a shaoyang issue.

Okay.

Let me, let me start with the shaoyang portion of the universe.

How do I say this?

It's like in the beginning, I thought, okay, I've got some

shortcuts here that can help me.

But what I found is there are no shortcuts.

Yeah.

Well, you know, I, I agree with both of those statements actually, and you know,

when, when we're learning the material, you know, and I look at this, uh, you

know, I look at this to some extent as a way of learning any kind of material.

Um, you know, as, as I mentioned to you before we started the, before we

started recording, you know, one of, I I'm a graduate of Oberlin conservatory.

So I was, uh, one of my early, you know, before I got into Chinese medicine, I

was trained as a classical musician.

So you've been involved in the classics for a long time then I have, and you

know, and, and I have to say is where some people would, would not necessarily

see the connection, the connection, in my opinion, between like learning

classical medicine, uh, classical medicine versus learning classical

music is not so different, honestly, because the, the way we approach it

is to some extent, fairly similar.

One of the ways we approach it is that there's a constant spiraling of

material deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper.

Right?

So when we're taking a new musician, we can take a new musician and

teach them to play a simple melody or even a complicated piece.

And they don't necessarily have to understand all of the deep,

theoretical underpinnings of what exactly the composer was doing in

order to play it for the first time.

Right.

But what separates even an advanced beginner from a professional, a performer

is the professional performer gets so pickled in that, in that, in that, in

the music itself where they not only can play it, but they understand to

some extent exactly what's happening.

In terms of the melody in terms of the harmony, in terms of whatever's

going on on every level and what that does is it, it sort of jumps

up their skill level significantly.

So, you know, one of the beautiful things about Chinese medicine is

that it really, in my opinion, taps into something so fundamental

about what we are as humans, right.

And how we interact with everything around us, how we interact with the

cosmos that even if you don't understand all of the nuances of what stomach

36 does, it'll still do, do a hell of a lot of it for you regardless.

Right?

So when learning the material you'll material with domes acupuncture or

any acupuncture system, you don't have to understand all of the theoretical

underpinnings just to get started.

And that's, that's fantastic.

So people can start with learning just two or three points and

start using them in their clinic.

Once they start using them in the clinic and seeing that they are effective.

Getting more confidence with it.

Then later on, as time goes on, they can start exploring what are

the deeper meanings, what are the deeper meanings of what we're doing?

Right.

And this is a process that hopefully we all do.

I think for our whole lives, it's certainly a process that I do for my,

hopefully it will do for my entire life.

I certainly don't.

I'm, I'm definitely not the best acupuncturist.

Know, I probably not even the second or third best acupuncturist.

I know, you know, I definitely, and I definitely don't know everything,

but when I, when I don't know something, I know that I don't

necessarily know why it works.

Right.

So, you know, I tell my students half ingest and half, and not just when a

teacher says to you, oh, it's Imperial.

Right.

It means one of a couple of things.

One, it means your teacher doesn't understand why it works.

Maybe they're just too late to, it means maybe they're just too

lazy to tell you why it works.

Or three, maybe for some reason, they don't think you're, you can

understand it, or they just don't want to tell you for whatever reason.

Now, none of them, none of those, if they don't know why it doesn't work,

that's not bad, but I don't fundamentally believe that anything is empirical.

If something works.

And again, if we believe in five phases in young channel systems, then there's

a reason why it works clinically.

Yeah.

I mean, how could it possibly work if there's no underlying reason for it to

work again, if we believe fundamentally in the theories of cheap blood of

five phases of a union of channels, et cetera, then there has to be a

reason why a point does what it does.

There's no such thing as empirical.

I certainly don't know what F Y every point does what it does that

I don't think any person can ever a hundred percent know everything well.

And part of the, part of the joy of doing this work is discovering these things.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

But I'm the first person to tell someone, you know, I'd use this clinically.

I know it does work.

I may understand why it works, but we can be comfortable in still using something

without knowing a hundred percent why in west Western doctors have done this

for, for a long time and do it all the time, all the time, all the time.

But as long as we're honest with saying, I don't know why it works.

I know that it does work.

We can still use it clinically.

So beginners can still use points without understanding all of the details.

But I do believe that over time, understanding all of the underpinnings

helps us really sort of hone down, like, when is this point?

The absolute best, perhaps as, as a possibility, right?

And so it's, the theory is good.

It's important, but it's, but people still not be afraid to search, to just

jump in with both feet and start using.

Got it.

I want to come back for a moment to the three tigers, the

large, the medium and the small.

Are there any particular instances where you'd really want to be thinking, Hey,

I want to use the large Tigie residents for something, or, you know, likewise.

Are there any particular situations where you think, Ooh, that, that,

that small Tigie, uh, is going to give you more bang for your buck?

Well, I mean, to some extent, I think it depends on the part of

the body you're working with.

Right?

So certain parts of the body have a stronger resonance with, with, with

one way of mapping over the other.

So I mean, something as simple as ear acupuncture, ear acupuncture,

I don't think really resonates with any other Tigie except a small Tigie.

I mean, we could potentially argue that it does, but in actual application,

maybe not so much, you know, I think for very simple muscular skeletal

problems, relatively simple injury, for example, the large Tigie is fairly

effective and fairly effective quickly.

Right.

And this is the basis of some of the T uh, the teachings that Dr.

Tom became, you know, I think we all owe him a great debt of

gratitude, uh, in that he really.

In a very vocal way, exposed acupuncturists in the United

States to perhaps a different way of thinking beyond the sort of

basic way we're taught in school.

Right?

Oh, absolutely.

And in fact, I, I mean, I also went to a school that taught a

variety of styles of acupuncture, but I, I remember going to a Dr.

Taiyang class and it made sense to me, partly because I had a background that

said be open to lots of different things.

And this was one that just made a lot of sense, right.

From the get go.

Oh yeah, absolutely.

I mean, and to me it made a lot of sense because one of the, one of my other sort

of, before I studied Chinese medicine, I I'd studied Asian martial arts from

the time I was very young, you know, I think I started when I was nine or 10 and

the connections that we see in the large Tigie for example, that the large joints

have a resonance with one another, right.

The knees and the elbows go together, the hips and the shoulders go together,

the wrists and the ankles go together.

This is.

Even in, for example, in, in Tigie is in Tigie the martial art theory.

When we talk about as the three external harmonies, right?

So this is an important, this is a big deal in martial arts theory and

especially in terms of push hands or application of forms, right?

So these ideas of how the body is sort of interconnected are not unique to

Chinese medicine, but they're also they're throughout the systems of sort

of body cultivation that are also part of the larger tradition of, of health

and wellness in, in Chinese history.

Right?

So these were, these were relationships that I had already heard about

and that I was comfortable with.

Right.

And I just never considered, maybe we can apply these to acupuncture theory.

Right.

And then you were under the dome style and you go, wow, here we go.

Right.

Absolutely.

Here it is.

Exactly.

And it, there's no reason it, since it works in one system, there's no reason

it shouldn't work in another system.

Right.

Because is this about cosmology or.

Yes.

Yes, yes.

Yeah.

Is it, is it cosmology met masking is medicine or is it medicine and cosmology?

And the answer is yes.

Yes, exactly.

Okay.

What about that, that middle Ty G are there any particular instances

where you, you want to start to think about that particular residence?

The middle Tigie is nothing more than jigging shooting her.

It's the five antique points, right.

Okay.

And so those are at play all the time as well.

And this teaching of the five antique points to S to some

extent in, in my way of looking at acupuncture is one of the fundamental

teachings of, of what we're doing.

Right.

Acupuncture.

It doesn't add to, to the system.

It doesn't nourish you and it doesn't build blood.

It doesn't move any, what acupuncture does is it's not going to, it's not in her.

Right.

Right.

And what so, what it does is it gives the body of stimulus of some, in some

way, shape or form of saying, this is the, and this is young move consolidate.

Right.

Go out, go in.

So, or up or down.

Right.

So, but what it's doing is it's normalizing circulation

of Cheon blood in the body.

And to some extent, whether we see cheesy as something that is

substantive and real, as far as we can sort of understand reality.

It doesn't really matter because it's a model that seems to work.

And so I'm comfortable not knowing the fundamental nature of G as long as

the model for me as a physician works.

And it, it, it does, it works very well.

So what acupuncture is doing is it's giving a stimulus.

The reason why the DJing and the ink points do what they do is because

they are distilled they're young.

They have a certain function in a certain message that it gives the body.

The reason that the, the DJing river and the whole uniting points do what they do

is because they're proximal, they're yin.

And so by virtue of them being proximal onion, they give the body a slightly

different message, perhaps, right?

And then since all of them are related to the five phases, we

see that every channel has a connection to all of the five phases.

So to me, the middle G is the fundamental, most important way of looking at the

dynamics of Ian young in the body.

Now, what it's also telling us is that all of the, every condition in

the body can be treated by these.

From the knees and the elbows down, which is again, the fundamental teaching

of books, like the Nanjing, right?

Because that's really what the Nanjing talks about.

So this, I mean, it's, it's, it's a much deeper, theoretical discussion.

This is the basis of why, for example, in dog's acupuncture, we say that points like

on the hands and the fingers treat more acute conditions were points on the thigh,

right from the knee up to the trunk, treat more chronic conditions because

what the middle Tigie teaches us is that we can look at the body as yin and yang,

and then use those body relationships to exploit a specific movement of CIM blood.

And it's very vague, but you know, it's probably the best we can do in

a, in a short, in a short discussion.

Okay.

I want to get a little bit into.

Some of the, I mean, you were talking about stomach 36, we all know about that.

Uh, without getting too simple, but just as a way of maybe enticing people to

think about this dong style and maybe take a little bit into their practice,

just from being able to having spent a little time with this podcast, can

you give us a couple of, uh, points or combinations or areas of the body to

think about that would be helpful and in everyday practice, but let's just say it's

almost like a little mini lesson here.

Something that would give people an introduction, both to being able to

use this in their clinic, but also to demonstrate some of these principles

that we've been talking about her so far.

Yeah.

It's it's I mean, I think we can certainly.

I mean, perhaps the most famous, one of the most famous points in dunks

system is this point, uh, lingual, you know, miraculous bone or spirit bone.

Uh, and it's the point given the number that they use in

the dunk system is to 2.05.

And the numbering system is kind of crazy, but you know, that's a bigger discussion

and it's yeah, well, the numbering system we already have is kind of crazy too.

So it's just another number in system they're there.

They're all right there.

They're all exactly.

It's just one that people aren't familiar with.

So they're, they're all kind of meeting lists.

They're all kind of crazy and it's even more meaningless to

some extent in dogs, acupuncture.

I mean, part of it is, um, but so lingo is located on the hand.

Um, Really just proximately to two hook, two large, two large intestine four.

Right?

So we're basically on the back of the hand at the junction of the metacarpal

bones in the space, just proximal to, uh, to large intestine for now, this is a

point that has a it's very commonly used.

It's something that people, since people are already used to needling large

intestine for, they can incorporate this easily into their, into their repertoire.

Uh, it's just basically a large intestine, four needles slightly differently.

Now in dogs, acupuncture, this point has a number of different functions

or a number of different uses.

So certainly it's a major pain.

Uh, it's it's a major pain relieving point has a very strong.

Way of coursing that she and she and blood.

And if we look at the specific indications, we see it as a very

strong residence, especially with, for example, the head has a strong

resonance with the lower abdomen.

So it's used commonly to treat gynecological complaints.

It also has a resonance with the low back with the hips, and it also

has a resonance with, uh, with the lower part of the body of the foot.

So, you know, let's say for example, uh, and the reason it has resonances

with those areas is because of all the different ways we can divide the body up.

So just looking at the large Tigie, which is how we're mapping the arm

to the leg or the arm to the trunk.

The hand can be representative for the head.

Sort of the hand goes to the head.

The elbow goes to the Naval region, right to the height of the, of,

of resinate and Ming men on the back of do four in the back.

And the shoulder goes down to the lower trunk.

So the hand clearly has a resonance with.

The hand and the foot also have a resonance, right?

So we problems in the head.

We have problems in the feet.

We can use a point on the hand right now.

We all do that anyway, very common.

Right?

And this is a very common and easy, easy use of the point.

The point itself, if we're looking at the area of the hand,

we can invert the relationship.

Why?

Because if you think about it, hand treats, head is using a distal.

Part of the body hand is distal, which makes it Yangming right.

Basic theory.

Head is superior of we come as compared to the rest of the trunk,

which also makes it young, right.

Basic theory.

So using young to treat young, I told my students is nuts.

Not so interesting, not so sexy, not so fun.

Right.

Because we know that the neighboring set tells us that the superior acupuncturist

leads young from union, from young treats, right from left left from, right.

Right.

This is in the early portion of the Sudan.

One of the basic things we understand in Chinese medicine is that

union young are mutually rooted.

They can transform a 20 in each other and into one another.

And so they have a strong resonance.

So instead of now using the hand, treat the head, which is young, treat young, I

can use the hand, which is young to treat the lower part of the trunk, which is yen.

Right.

And so that's what we would call an inverted relationship or an

inverted image of some sort.

So the hand has a connection to the head, to the foot, to the lower back.

So let's say we have a psychotic patient, uh, and you know, the typical

sciatica patient or, you know, or a first year TCM student, I think.

Okay, great.

Well, what channel is the size eight on the bladder channel that on the

gallbladder channel and the patient comes in and they're real patient,

unfortunately they're not just a textbook.

So the real patient says.

Oh, you know, I have pain in my low back and it's right in the middle and it goes

right to the side of the back as well.

And so it's, you know, it's my, he's like the quadratus lumborum area.

It's right over the spine.

And it sort of radiates into the back of my buttocks.

And then it goes into my groin area and then it sort of skips the upper

leg and it goes down into my foot and sort of goes down the side of my

foot and the calf at the same time.

And then it goes into my big toe.

Right.

Because yeah, cause if you're a practicing acupuncturist, you know that this is

what a real sciatic patient looks like.

Right?

Yeah.

So let's, let's break it down.

So I have the low back, I have the hip, the hand can go to that area.

I have the lower part of it.

So it goes down to the toe of the foot.

The hand can go to that area as well.

Say the patient comes in, they have headache that day, you know,

hand goes to the head as well.

So we can use basically one point to treat, let's say 80% or 90% of

that patient's problems right there.

The handling lingo is on the large intestine channel.

Whereas even though the point doesn't exactly it's new, we

don't have a TCM point right.

In that exact location it's along the large intestine channel so that we know

the large intestine is the Yangming.

And that's an important piece to remember as an acupuncturist.

I think it's sometimes more important to understand that the right in Chinese, they

don't say the large intestine channel.

They say the hand young man.

I mean, exactly.

I mean, it gives you a lot of clues right there if you're doing it in Chardonnays.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

And so as an acupuncture teacher, I really wish we got our students in

the PR in the habit of saying it's the hand Yangming of the large intestine.

Right.

So that they remember all of that.

So right away, we know that the hand Yangming can treat the

area of the, of the big toe.

Right.

There is a connection between the Yangming.

And the Dre yen, right?

So the Yangming large intestine can treat the Dre and liver, which is the big toe.

This is one of the reasons why the four gates are such a

good point combination, right?

When we're looking at traditional point combinations, it's important to look

not only at what the points do as if they were herbs, which is how we, how

we teach the four gates, but also the channel connections and resonances.

So here we have the large intestine and the liver have a strong resonance.

We also know from the 10 stems that the, the yin would stem, right?

That's the east stem jaw is young wood.

He is yin wood and the gung stem, which is the young metal stem, right?

So stem number two in stem, number seven, also have a resonance, right?

So there's a reason why this is where your classical music training really comes in.

Well, I think so, right.

This is, this is, this is looking at all of the subtle connections

that may be present there.

So here we have a resonance, not only from hand to foot from the Yangming

to the Dre in, but also from the young metal specifically to the yin wood.

So there's no way that, that hand point can't treat that area of the foot.

Right?

When we're looking at moving into the groin, if that were state still looking

at the Saddhic patient, the groin can be either stomach channel liver channel

Yangming large intestine goes to Yangming stomach Yangming large intestine can

still go to Trey and liver, right?

So we're, we're there on the back with looking at the spine in particular,

the spine is the Duma, uh, but it's also the internal branch of the kidney.

Right.

So let's, when we're looking at channels, we have to memorize not

only the external branches, but also where they go internally.

So the large intestine and the kidney channel are opposite one another

in the timing of the day, right?

So large intestine channel is five to seven in the morning.

Kidney channel is in the evening opposite that time.

Right?

And so those channels also have a connection.

I think it's a really, it's a travesty that when we learn this,

this cycle of the, what time goes with each channel, we just assume that

automatically, oh, if it's midnight, it's a gallbladder channel problem.

And I think that's, that's completely the wrong way to understand it.

And I can back that up with quotes from the Sudan and the link shoe to

prove my point at, uh, you know, we can have that conversation later.

In my opinion, the time of the day is more important for us

to understand different Indian connections of the different channels.

So the large intestine channel by itself has a connection to kidney

channel, which is the spine.

So we can go from lingo to the.

Via the via the clock opposite the clock opposites right now, the lingo, when

I, when I know that there are different ways of needling lingo, my preference

of needling LIMU is to point it towards the area of the theater eminence.

Right?

So we're pointing it down towards roughly large intestine, 10 vicinity,

I'm sorry to lung 10 vicinity.

Right?

So we're connecting essentially the large intestine channel and the

lung channel with one needle, right?

So this is a, what we call a through and through needle technique.

And just in case your listeners, if they're new to that idea, it doesn't mean

the needle comes out the other side, but the needle tip is going to the space of

where the channel is because it's not right on the skin, it's in the tissue.

So one needle, we connect large intestine to lung channel.

Now the lung tie in has a connection to the, the bladder Taiyang, which means

that that point can also get us into the vicinity of like quadratus lumborum.

That makes sense.

Totally.

And so the only channel we haven't covered basically is if there's any gallbladder

channel distribution, which we can cover by adding in maybe one other point on the

hand or on the arm or something like that.

So with one point we can have all these different types of resonances.

Then even beyond that, for example, when we feel the pulse for me, lingo as a point

as a particularly good effect at coursing chin blood, we know it's on the Yangming

channel, which is full of Cheon blood.

When the pulse comes back as particularly wirey, then in my view, this is, so

this is where sometimes in my opinion, the just doing the image may get us,

get us there most of the time, but.

As much as we'd like, because I've had lots of students come

back and say a lingo didn't work.

When I had say Attica, and I was asked them, what's the pulse?

Like what's the rest of the presentation?

Like if the case, if the patient has a real sort of strong kidney

deficiency pattern, right?

If the pulse is deep and thready, in my opinion, lingo is not the first

point of a first point to choose lingo.

In my opinion is the first point to choose when we have this very hard

wirey pulse, which can sometimes be more of an acute condition.

It can be chronic in a certain and other certain types of presentations.

But the wirey pulse, if we're looking at post-diagnosis, one of the post-diagnosis

approaches that I really like is the sort of what I call the archetypal pulses

of the five phases, which are described as the pulses of the five seasons.

Right.

So why are we pulse is the archetypal pulse of spring of liver of Woodford.

Again, the relationship then is lingo is on the large intestine channel.

The large intestine young metal goes to the yin wood, large intestine

also as a metal channel is also in a control cycle relationship with wood.

So if the pulse is primarily giving me a message of wood as the main movement

of the five phases in the body, somehow really knocked it out of the park.

Exactly.

Because this point, and this is why precisely the four

gates does what it does, right?

Not only because of the young metal to yin wood, but also because there's a five

phase control cycle relationship, right?

So we can do needle technique on large intestine channel specifically

to course, in other words, to drain the, the stasis in would make sense.

It makes sense.

And I'm sure you could go on with more of this.

You mentioned that if they've got this sort of deep thready kidney

pulse, can you deficiency pulse?

Yes.

What would you think about that?

Where would you start with that?

Well, then we have to choose a point that has a resonance somehow with the kidney.

Right.

And so there is, are there a set of points on the side of the hand in dog's

acupuncture called the wrist flow?

The wan Sion points, uh, they're located in the vicinity, uh, pretty much

overlapping the area of small intestine three and then a little further down

at the, so there's one basically at the head and the base of the, the fifth,

uh, medic, uh, the fifth, uh, the fifth metacarpal bone metacarpal bone, right.

There it's not quite all the way at small intestine, four, it's a

little closer in to small tests in three, but they're in that general

vicinity, it's called wrist flow.

These points in dogs, acupuncture have an association with the, with the kidney in

particular, we know that they're on the Taiyang channel, which means they have

an association with the Taiyang bladder, which brings us very clearly into that

water right into the shaoyang kidney.

Absolutely.

And then we know that small intestine three, right?

Small intestine three is a shoe stream point, the shoe stream point treats

pain, uh, it treats conditions of pain and heaviness in the channel.

And then, then we have to ask ourselves, even in conventional acupuncture, what's

the relationship of small intestine three.

What is, what, what else does that we know about that point?

So small intestine three is the, the shoe stream points on the young channels

are, would points small intestine channel by itself, even though in

domes acupuncture, this area of the.

That area of the hand is associated with the kidney in regular Chinese

medicine, regular channel theory, small test and channel is a fire channel.

So the relationship between wood point and fire channel means that

small intestine three, since wood is the mother of fire, small intestine

three is the supplementation point of the small intestine channel.

So we know that the fundamental nature of small intestine, three, even in

classical conventional, whatever, what you want to call regular 12 channel system

acupuncture, the fundamental nature of small intestine three is as a point that

has a supplementing effect on the channel.

More so than say, you know, the area of lingo, right?

So it would be better point for a deficient condition.

Exactly.

Right.

So that area of the hand.

We would potentially look at, which is why we see indications in the traditional dome

lineage, literature of, of things like pain in the body accompanied by fatigue.

Right?

So we would diagnose this as like a kidney young and sufficiency or kidney

insufficiency in general, because, you know, young, are you in, I don't know

how comfortable I am with that with only using acupuncture, not bringing

in herbs or mocks or something else.

Right.

But if there's a kidney insufficiency, the kidneys not consolidating

at the same time, there's pain, then we can use points like that.

And then, and then after that, we have to go down to the legs, which

have a, more of a, a sort of like a stabilizing consolidating effect because

legs compared to arms are more yin.

The nature of Yan is to hold and consolidate, which is why all of the

index acupuncture, all of the important points for treating insufficiency of

the five song organs are on the legs.

This is the polar opposite of a system of short-term.

Yes, but you can.

It is, but students can still learn, you know, pulse wirey, excess condition.

Here are the images, lingo, you know, pulse deep and weak.

Just go to this point group.

So we can start with really sort of like, you know, it's like when

I teach classes, even, even if we spend days and days learning points,

I usually say, okay, these are maybe the top 30 heavy hitters that you

should start using in your clinic.

Even if you don't understand why you're using them, figure out what their main

indications are and start using them in those patients and see what you can do.

You know, that makes so much sense because even if we don't completely

understand it, if we can get it to work, it'll keep us going.

It'll keep our patients growing.

And eventually the more we use things and the more we think about things

in general, the more the points begin to speak to us in a certain way.

And these associations are easier to do.

They do.

Absolutely.

And these, you know, these, you know, it's like when I see a point when I

see a patient, all these associations are going through my head basically

constantly, but I didn't start there.

Right.

We start, we start from a place of just, you know, there was

benefit to just memorize it first.

And that's another way that classical music training and classical medicine

training was similar at the beginning.

You know, when I remember when I was, uh, before I went to Chinese medicine

professionally, I, I worked for a number of years as a high school music teacher.

And I taught instrumental music.

That was my, my, my background.

And I remember someone coming up to me one day and saying, oh,

that must be such a creative job.

And I thought to my self for a second, I said to them,

actually, no, it's not because.

I'm an instrumental music teacher, which means for the first 10

years, if they want to be serious musicians, they have to do it.

Exactly what, the way I say it, they don't have any say in how they do it.

That's right.

It's technical scroll here.

Exactly.

I mean, you can only learn.

There's only one, there's maybe a couple, but there's really only one

set of fingerings for, you know, a flute without much variation.

And until they can do it, you know, when I was conservatory, I used to

sit in a dark practice room and do my scales an hour or two at a time,

just over and over and over, and then arpeggios over and over and over.

Because until you have it in your fingers, you can't really make art with it.

Right.

Okay.

We have to start with some sort of basic memorization of key facts.

Key information is the same thing with acupuncture.

So we have to start with, you know, what are the 30 main point?

That's why something like the modern young, 12 star heavenly star points of

such a great thing right here we are.

Okay.

These are 12 points that treat lots and lots of conditions just memorize this.

And you've got a good place to start.

I'm not familiar with those points.

Where, um, where did that come from?

The modern young, heavenly star points, who was, uh, if you, uh,

I mean, they're referenced even in Deadman, they have them, there are

lists of 12, 12 essential points.

Modern young was a famous Dallas.

I'm going to, I'm going to get the dynasty wrong.

So I'm not even going to say it, but, you know, he had a list of 12 key

points that were really good for a wide range and they're heavy hitters, right?

So like points like gallbladder 30 was one of the points, you know?

So it's like certain points treat a wide range of conditions.

These are the ones you start with.

You know, I think, I think this is such an important thing that you just say is

that these points, we start with that.

We don't end with them.

Right.

They get us started.

In fact, they give us a little bit of a, a little bit of speed.

Like when you first get on a bicycle, you need a little oomph

to, uh, to catch your balance.

These kinds of points, we'll get a scoring and then they can open up a tremendous

rabbit hole if we're paying attention.

Absolutely.

And you know, and part of me wishes that in conventional acupuncture

teaching, we didn't just say, okay, here's the stomach channel.

Here's every single point on the stomach channel, perhaps that would be better

if we said in points one, we're going to do all the channels, but learn maybe the

top four or five points in each channel.

And just start with that.

And then in points two, we're going to go back through all the channels

and fill in the blanks perhaps a little bit better, you know, th you

know, that makes a lot of sense.

I'm thinking, well, as we were talking earlier, we can talk

about the lung channel, or we can talk about the hand tightening.

And if you're thinking about hand-tight eating, you're already making.

All kinds of other associations.

Well, I mean, and the, I think that the, even the more important part of that is

even if the student doesn't remember all the associations, if they're memorizing

it as the hand TaiYin channel, then six months after that, they'll say,

oh, that's an important connection.

And then a year later they'll be like, oh, that's another important connection.

But if they never memorize it as the hand TaiYin channel, then they'll

never make those connections because that pathway is just not there.

That's right.

Exactly.

Great.

Henry.

I'm just looking at the time here.

I can't believe it has flown by so quickly.

I've got so much more, I'd actually like to talk to you about, so maybe we can

do a part two somewhere down the road.

Yeah, that's fine.

I'd be more than happy to it.

Happy to do it.

Yeah.

Um, but before we close it down, is there any final closing remarks or things

that you'd like our listeners to think.

For me, the most important lesson of all of this really is this, this is

what we sort of started talking about, which is this idea of resonance, right.

You know, in Chinese they call it the gunning, right?

So this is how we sort of have this ongoing dialogue with

in the big scheme of things.

It's how our body has this ongoing dialogue with the

natural environment, right?

How our spleen has an ongoing dialogue with the different

channels and other organs.

Right.

And so it's a matter of eventually learning all of those

and being sensitized, excuse me, to all those connections

that are going on all the time.

And you know, this for me is my personal colon, I guess.

Right.

How can I look at this in everything that's going on?

Not only in my acupuncture, not only in my, like my, my Tigie, my martial

arts practice or my cheek on practice, but how, how is it happening even in,

in how I relate to other people and in society, everything is like all these

different ways of looking at resonance.

And so Chinese medicine to me is, I mean, it's a great profession

and it supports me well.

And, uh, I think I, hopefully I help, uh, help lots of people and

that makes their lives better.

But it's also this way of exploring the sort of thoroughgoing

interconnectedness of all things, right?

It's another medium of exploring that.

And to some extent, that biggest piece of the philosophy is what keeps me interested

in doing it year after year after year.

Because if you're practicing clinician, you know, it gets tedious.

Right.

I saw patients for 12 hours in the clinic yesterday, back to

back to back to back to back.

And if you don't have something that sort of lights that fire underneath

you, that's when the burnout happens.

But if you have that step fire, that's there, that sort of constant

sense of inquiry, then, you know, I've been in practice for 18 years

now and I've done this kind of schedule for most of that time.

And it's still every day I go in, I never, they're very, there's very rarely

a day where I go into the office and think I'd rather be somewhere else.

And partly it's because of that, that sort of those deeper philosophical questions

are sort of underpin everything that I do.

And that's good.

I think it's a good way to sort of think about things.

Yeah.

Going into clinic and life every day with a constant state of inquiry.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Lovely.

Yeah.

Henry, thank you so much for your time today.

I really have enjoyed this conversation and look forward to another one.

Absolutely.

Thank you.