This conversation with Barb Scott-Cole explores something easy to overlook and difficult to rebuild: the social systems that make agriculture possible.

Before innovation strategies, before policy frameworks, before the language of productivity and efficiency, there were communities that taught themselves. Learning was embedded in participation. People developed skills, judgment, and leadership by being part of something—by showing up, contributing, and gradually taking on more responsibility. It wasn’t formalized, and it didn’t need to be. It worked because it was shared.

Barb reflects on that world with clarity and precision, not as nostalgia, but as a way of understanding what has changed. Institutions once played a close, grounded role in translating knowledge into practice, helping people adapt to new tools, new techniques, and new realities. Today, those same processes feel more fragmented. Knowledge exists, but it doesn’t always travel. Innovation happens, but it doesn’t always land.

At the heart of this episode is a deeper question: how does a system reproduce itself? Not just economically, but socially—how it passes on knowledge, builds capacity, and creates the conditions for people to lead.

This is a conversation about culture as infrastructure. About informal learning as a form of coordination. About trust as something built over time, through proximity and shared experience.

And it’s about what happens when those systems thin out.

Because the future of agriculture will depend on more than technology or policy. It will depend on whether we can rebuild the environments where people learn together, take responsibility, and carry knowledge forward across generations.

In this episode:

• How informal learning shaped agricultural knowledge and leadership
• The role of community-based institutions in translating change into practice
• Why innovation often fails to land without shared context and trust
• Leadership as something grown through participation, not assigned
• What it means to rebuild the “hidden infrastructure” of farming today

If this episode resonates, share it with someone who is thinking about the future of agriculture—not just what we produce, but how we learn, adapt, and lead together.

Hi, I'm Jesse Hirsh.

Welcome to the Future Herd.

What keeps a system working when no one is actually in charge of the entire thing?

That question runs quietly through this conversation with Barb s Scott Cole,

not as abstraction, but rather as lived experience because what she describes

is an agriculture as an industry.

It's agriculture as a culture.

One that once made participation feel natural, where learning was embedded in

community and where leadership emerged through doing rather than designation.

There was a time when the system taught itself, knowledge

moved through relationships.

People learned by showing up.

By contributing, by being pulled into responsibility

before they even felt ready.

Institutions played a role, sure, but not as distant authorities.

They worked because they were close to the ground, translating change into

something people could actually use.

What Barb helps us see is how much of that connective tissue has.

Thinned today, we still invest in innovation policy and new technologies,

but the harder problem sits underneath how people make sense of change together.

Without shared values, without spaces for informal learning, without

trust built over time, even the best ideas struggle to take hold.

This conversation is less about what agriculture produces and more about how

it reproduces itself, how knowledge, capacity and commitment move from one

generation to the next, and what happens when that process becomes less visible,

less intentional, or less effective.

Because the future of agriculture won't be decided by technology alone.

It'll be shaped by whether we can rebuild the social systems that allow people

to learn, adapt, and act together.

I.

Hi Barb, welcome to The Future Herd.

Barb Scott Cole: Hey, Jesse.

So, uh, the first question I love to throw out as our

guests, as a kind of RAR shot test on where they see things heading.

Uh, what does the future mean to you?

Barb Scott Cole: Oh, I guess it's all the possibilities that are ahead.

Um.

You know, uh, if you're a, a follower of brain theory or something, you know, the,

the multiverse and all that, we get, you know, there's so many possible futures.

Um, but for those of us that don't live in a multidimensional, uh, world,

it's the choices that we make to, and I hopefully the choices we make to make

the, uh, where we live a better place.

Right on.

And, and I think that concept of the choices we make really create

the world, uh, that we wanna live in, I is something that we can kind

of tap into our conversation today.

And with most guests.

I often go from the future question into a kind of personal question.

I wanna make an exception today only 'cause I want to indulge, uh,

an interest of mine that I think is really relevant in terms of how

we're talking about the podcast.

And that's to ask you to take a moment to talk about four H. And you know, four

H is one of those organisations that I think for many people is kind of part

of the fabric, part of the culture, something that's kind of taken for granted

versus I think for a lot of city people.

They have no idea what four H is and kind of that when they hear about

it, it, it's, you really are blown away with the infrastructure that it

provides, the culture that it enables, the programmes that it's involved in.

So, I, I say this because you're the second guest that we've had on,

uh, who is active in four h. And I don't think you're gonna be the last.

So if you wouldn't mind us taking a bit of a sidebar here at the beginning,

uh uh, perhaps to personalise it, how did you get involved in four

H and what does it mean to you?

Barb Scott Cole: Okay.

I got involved as a 12-year-old because my neighbour was the four H leader.

And um, it's just what you did, right?

That was, you know, there wasn't any ifs or buts and,

um, I was an outdoors kid and.

parents told me that if I did some of the four H homemaking clubs, I

didn't have to take home EC at school.

So when I got to high school, so I'm thinking, well,

that's a pretty sweet deal.

I, I stayed, I I back, back in the day.

Um, and as soon as I came home from university, I, I was an Aggie at

Guelph and when I came home, my first four H leader says, well,

I signed you up to lead with me.

We're doing a club.

And that was the choice and training I had to become a four H leader.

Uh, and I've been doing it ever since.

And, um, no matter where I've lived in Ontario, 'cause I, I grew up in

Southwestern Ontario, in Kent County.

And, uh, then, um, married and moved to Renfru.

And so no matter where I've lived, I've always had a four H family with me.

And um, so that's been really fun.

My closest friends I've met through four H or through junior farmers and,

because I think you have that shared value system, you stick together so.

That's, um.

Uh, that's why it's been for me talking about four H itself.

It's over a hundred years old.

Um, it started in the States and came quickly to Canada afterwards, and it was,

there were clubs designed to make young people better at what they had to do.

So there was a focus on livestock, improving livestock breeding and

pro cropping, and understanding better ways and the new technologies

that were coming aboard.

And at that same time, in the early, uh.

20th century, there was a real movement to make.

Home economics was domestic science.

It was like really looking at the science of being running a better

household more efficiently and better food and, and food safety.

The whole move to pasteurisation and that sort of thing.

And teaching those techniques to a group of people in an informal setting.

And if you go back.

In the early, uh, 20th century, a lot of people never finished high school.

They were lucky to, to get a few years of elementary school in.

And so by having these small local groups where you could learn, 'cause people

passionately wanted to learn, um, how to do things better and socialise as well.

That I think that's why four H really took off in Ontario.

Well, and as an aside, my mom, uh, finished high school

and back then that was grade 11.

So, you know, we, we, we think about high school differently now than

it was in previous generations.

I think.

Because there was more applied learning on the job and, and as part of work.

But you, you said something there I kind of want to tease out, which is, you know,

the model of leadership that is on the one hand kind of assumed the way, you

know, your, your, your leader is like, come on, you're leading this with me.

But there's also a kind of invitation there, right?

Where on the one hand it's assumed that because you're part of the community,

you're gonna play a role in leadership.

But on the other hand, it.

Does feel like you had a, a hand, like someone was saying,

Hey, come get involved.

Come do this again.

I think you take it for granted, but do you think that there is a value in that?

Kind of each one teach one model where leadership is not just expected, it's

encouraged it, it's something that is facilitated and rewarded in that regard.

And I'm, I'm raising it both at the risk of stating the self-evident, but

I'm not sure that happens as often or as much as it needs to anymore.

Barb Scott Cole: I think you're right.

Um.

My leader was, uh, was someone who continues to be, um, she just

turned 89, um, uh, in February, and she's still active in her

community, very, very involved.

Maybe not so much in four H anymore, but with a community project.

And, um, and she acts as a historian and public relations.

She's, uh, a, an absolute going concern.

And so that, again, that was her personality that was driving,

encouraging people to become leaders.

But I also think.

Um, that really influenced me as well and, uh, you know, encouraging young

people to take on roles in the community.

I also was a high school teacher for 25 years and, and looked after

student council, so I spent a lot of time walking the halls looking for

kids that maybe didn't think they belonged on student council, but you

know, if, if they were leading, um, other people astray, they probably had

some strong skills that they could, if turned the word, the good, right.

Uh.

And, and that ask and that noticing that somebody has, uh,

has potential, I think is massive in, you know, not only community

development and personal development, but also mental health as well.

Just, uh, picking that, picking up on that.

And I very much want to talk about the work that you're

doing now, uh, both as a leader, but when it comes to cultivating

leadership amongst young people.

But lemme throw a crazy.

A question at you given, uh, I think the unique perspective you've

had on how we serve our youth and how we support our youth.

What have we gotten wrong?

What have we been failing to do in the last couple of decades?

And I say this as a very open-ended question, but the assumption here.

And you're willing to challenge it if you disagree.

But the assumption here is that we're not doing enough, uh,

for young people these days.

We're not giving them the kind of opportunities to your very powerful point

to take someone who's very powerful at organising kids to do the wrong thing

and give them the kind of support and attention they need to turn that around

and be a community builder in the way that we might have done that in the past.

Barb Scott Cole: I don't know that we did that in the past either.

I, I think there have been people who've done that all along, you know?

Uh, because I, you know, maybe, uh, wasn't the, the world's

greatest student, um, myself, so maybe I have a sneaking sympathy.

I just happened to get good marks and get away with it.

Um.

I think though, and my own offspring have commented on it, when they first started

playing sports, you, it was win or lose.

Right?

You, you won a game.

You lost a game.

And then as they, as they grew along, then it was like, well, we're not

keeping score in this game, or we're not, you know, it doesn't matter.

You're all winners.

And that whole, and like it's.

It's really good, um, to learn how to lose and kindness can happen when you

lose, and so I. I don't, I learned how to lose in a really weird way, and this is

a stupid story, but I'll tell it anyway.

Uh, I was racing in a Sunday school picnic when I was five

against the nine and 10-year-old boys because I was a competitive

little thing, no skill whatsoever.

And I lost horribly.

Right.

How am I going to be nine and 10-year-old boys when I'm five?

And, but I was, I was gonna run and, and I can remember my mom being so mad at me

for doing that, but I can also remember one of the boys sharing his chocolate,

one of the nine year olds sharing his chocolate bar with me because I tried.

And it was, and it meant that he says, you're just little.

That's why you didn't win.

You know, and you know, you start to think, okay, there are consequences you

can try, you can fail and it's okay.

And I'm really glad I had that experience to, to know that it's okay to fail

and, and you know, this is what you need to do next time, is maybe run

with the five-year-old girls, you know, you might have a better chance.

And like learning your place.

And I think the same thing.

I, I coached, uh, minor hockey and minor soccer for years.

And it's okay to lose, what did you learn in this game?

What, how did you get beat?

What can you do better?

And you have to frame it that way.

And you know, it's.

It's not all, oh, you were just wonderful out there.

No, you, um, actually passed to the wrong person.

Or no, you didn't hustle back soon enough.

You know, there, there's a reason why you fail, but you can change those reasons.

You can change those to why you succeed.

And I think for a lot of years we lost that because again, and I think it was

outta kindness, not out of anything else.

Because it hurts when you lose.

And I think parents wanna protect their kids from that.

And, and you know, we became a culture where the participation ribbons, and I

don't mind participation ribbons either.

I think that's nice.

You know, you came out, you get you, you know, that's great.

But, Again, expecting that and expecting accommodations for everything.

We're not all going to be good at things.

There's many things I'm terrible at.

I say, I keep trying or I acknowledge, I really can't do this.

I need you to help me.

Right.

And that's, that's part of the learning process too, and creating community.

And if you.

You do something better than me.

Uh, like I'm really missing my one student who would always fix my, my

computer for me and my headphones if I was struggling, right?

But that was something that that person could be very successful in and feel

that, you know, I'm, I'm contributing.

And I think by saying, oh, it's okay.

Uh, it's all okay.

We lost that ability of recognising each other's strengths and weaknesses as well.

I think you've made a brilliant point, and I think you hit

it right on the nose and, and I'll use sort of two examples to illustrate that.

We as a society tend to look at the innovation in the technology

sector, the way that Silicon Valley has become a dominant industry.

And their primary mantra is fail early and fail often.

Right, and they've institutionalised the way in which they can approach

innovation not as a focus on success, but as a focus on failure,

as the requirement for success.

And you're right about pain that one of the privileges, they tend to

have's a lot of resources, right?

A lot of money, a lot of staff.

So when they say fail early, fail often they are coming

from a position of privilege.

But the point is.

Exactly that.

We've created a society where we're averse to that kind of failure.

We're averse to that kind of experimentation.

And on a personal level, like some of the greatest times of my life were

riding a bicycle and I learned how to ride a bicycle without training wheels.

'cause my parents were like, no kid, you gotta crash.

You gotta wipe out.

That's how you're gonna learn.

And I think we have lost that.

I think that that is something that we need to kind of return.

But you mentioned something that I want to use as a segue to talk about

your current work now and your current focus, which I'll kind of extract as

mentorship and guidance and the support necessary, as you were saying so that when

young people fail, when they struggle, when they are disconnected from, let's

say, a path to their own success.

What do we need to be doing?

What are the environments?

What are the structures?

What are the events that allow us to, to create those environments

that kids can fail, but feel that they have permission to do so?

Feel that they have encouragement to do so.

Feel that they have the wisdom, uh, to learn from those failures in a way that

they may not be able to do on their own.

Barb Scott Cole: And I think it, it's having the right leadership,

but I also think that it's the, the mindset of four H have learned

to do by doing until you've tried something you don't know and like, um.

I, I canoe.

I canoe and kayak a lot, but I've never had the opportunity

to paddleboard this summer.

And I was on staff at four H Camp and so the kids were learning how to paddleboard.

So in my supervision I went down and said, well, I'm gonna learn too.

And they think that that's funny that, you know, this elderly woman

is coming down to go paddle boarding with a bunch of 14 year olds.

But, uh, you know, after, after you get past the laughs and like you, you

know, I made the same mistakes that they did and, but by the end of the

afternoon I was pretty good, right?

It, it was a safe place and you know, everybody, it, everybody

else is worried about what you're gonna look like or you know, what?

What am I gonna fall off?

Am I gonna be scared?

Can I keep my balance?

All of that's going through all of our heads.

And when you're learning to do by doing it, it takes some of that

pressure off because yeah, there's gonna be somebody who gets it the

first time, right there, there is, and the rest of us are in the middle.

And you know, and the one person at the last, by the time we've all struggled

through that person that's behind, it's like, let's give you a hand buddy.

We're gonna bring you with, Because we're all gonna leave

this, we're all gonna leave the lake today knowing how to do this.

And you know that, that, that environment where.

it, it's gonna be, you know, yeah, we're all kind of nervous 'cause

you don't wanna look like a goof.

You're, we're all kind of nervous 'cause it's a new skill if we can just

create that safe space, but you know, it takes the right adult there too.

The instructors at the camp were great.

They just.

They just rolled with me rolling down with the kids, right?

They were ones that are, you know, of course you're going to be able to do it.

There was an expectation that everyone was going to be successful, and I

don't think that happens in everything.

And I think a lot of kids have it beat outta them pretty early that

they're going to be successful because they didn't get it on the first try.

And, um.

I, I, I saw one kid explaining to another kid once that says,

well, it, it takes 10 tries.

It's not just one.

It, it takes 10.

If you don't have it by 10, you know, then I'd worry about it and, you know,

and I thought, wow, that's pretty wise, you know, from an 8-year-old.

That's actually genius.

And, and I think if we have that attitude and attitude and adults working with

kids have that attitude that, no, it's not gonna happen on the first try.

And like, don't be afraid, afraid to say, you know, I really messed up on

this, you know, when I was learning it, but this is a trick I learned.

Or my 8-year-old friend told me it took me 10 tries.

Right?

All of those things are cre uh, create that condition where it's

safe to learn and it's safe to fail because And it's safe to succeed too.

And it's great if you can see on the, can succeed on the first try, because

what did you do to be able to do that?

Can I ask you that question?

You know, or are you just naturally talented and cool?

Cool for that, um, let, let's celebrate that because there's, uh, you know, maybe

you don't do something as well as I do.

So think that's the essential thing.

Well, and you, you, you bring up I think a really, I interesting

point here, which I can articulate as a question that only, uh, um, only

an advanced leader such as yourself, I think would be able to answer.

And on the one hand.

You kind of described how an 8-year-old is teaching us about

statistical modelling, right?

Because most of us know, we would think, okay, try once, it doesn't work, but

they're like, no statistical modelling.

You gotta try it 10 times.

You gotta gotta page base, 10 decimal, right?

The kid doesn't understand that.

Barb Scott Cole: times outta 20.

Yeah.

Right.

Like they don't, they don't know that they're doing statistical

modelling, but they've internalised it.

So here's the question.

Given that you have spent most of your professional life in some way, uh, uh,

fostering leadership amongst young people, spending time amongst young people in your

current work, and this is an opportunity to talk about your current work.

In your current work, what are young people teaching you?

Because if the assumption is that as a leader, part of your leadership comes from

learning from young people, then whatcha learning from them these days other than

the headphones and the computer stuff.

Barb Scott Cole: Well, okay.

Uh, yeah, I, I blame my headphones, not my skills.

Um.

So many things, um, especially when you get kids by themselves and free.

So yesterday afternoon we had our STEM club meeting.

Um, so I lead with, um, two other, uh, two other leaders and we've

been picking all the cool stuff in science that each of us like.

And so yesterday was one of the leaders, um, really is

involved in plant propagation.

That's her hobby.

She makes cuttings of just about everything and, and has a really, a,

a, a really great skill set on it.

So like the other leader and I are sitting there taking note.

Like met and so that where we're learning from each other, but watching the kids,

um, you know, learning about nodes on plants and cambium tissue and, you know,

why it would be important to keep knives clean, like the questions they were

asking, um, were ones that were really insightful that, you know, you're, I'm not

expecting a 9-year-old to be asking about.

know, nodes on a plant, you know, and watching them again

doing, uh, we were doing uh, part of the tomato sphere project.

I dunno you're aware of that, but some of this tomato seeds are sent into the

space station and some say here on earth.

And we grow, you grow them out to see if there's a difference

between the germination.

And it's a project that the Canadian Space Agency has been

sponsoring for the last 25 years.

And so one of the kids in our club is fascinated by space plants, not so much.

But to watch the wheels turning that plants in space.

Was something that he hadn't thought about.

And I think that's something that, that inspires me, is just watching openness

to, to bring a new idea in, because I think we tend to get really rigid and

learning from kids the questions they ask and, uh, you know, what they're

thinking about and where they go next is like, just a reminder too ourselves

that we, we've gotta, we can't lose that.

We can't channel that away and just say, oh yeah, well, you

know, the Canadian Space Agency.

Yeah.

Blah.

No, it's like cool tomatoes in space.

Why tomatoes?

Why would you, you know?

How do we organise that?

How do we take what you are kind of experiencing spontaneously,

spontaneously via four H programming?

How do we replicate that so that we have that wonder?

We have that.

Uh, a youth perspective, uh, not just when it comes to learning and

research, but all throughout the sector.

Uh.

Barb Scott Cole: Okay, well we had three leaders and 12 kids,

so you know that and that.

I'll, I'll get too political right if I in three seconds if I don't, but

small classroom sizes are essential, you know, small groups of people

and people that are really vested in youth's growth and development.

I, you know, I didn't know very few teachers that wouldn't like, would

rather have a smaller class and have more support in their classroom because

I'm meeting these kids for two hours.

Every other weekend, and we have that special relationship and, but

a, a teacher has those kids in her class in front of her every day and

knows them even more than, than, uh, you know, you, you know, which.

lot of things, and I, I know I, uh, as a classroom teacher, I was a, a secondary

science teacher, but those are my kids.

And I knew who had breakfast and I knew who had, you know, was struggling

and I knew who broke up with their boyfriend and, you know, because

kids, kids tell you that it, but.

When you have 36 in a classroom and you're trying to deal with all that

emotional background stuff and then teach how to balance chemical equations,

you don't have that same one-on-one.

And that's why the four H model is so valuable because kids don't have that

opportunity to work really closely with an adult that they trust and you don't.

And to have the time, you know, if I divided a 75 minute class up between

36, the kids would get two minutes each.

At the most, right?

If, if I, if I just talk to a kid.

if I have two hours where I only have like, I've just got this little group

of people, I can talk, I can interact.

What do you think?

Oh, careful with that knife.

And you know it's better to cut.

Make your cutting this way.

You know, we're planning these tomato seeds to have you make,

you know, have you done that?

I, I've got time to check.

But if you're, we're mass producing a bunch of kids through a classroom.

We don't have that time for that, that little bit of contact.

And I, I think that if you were going to foster it, like when I, I look

at small group success, it's so much higher than that, than large groups,

just simply because of the time factor.

Although you evoke something else with that ratio

of like three adults and uh, 12 kids that we clearly need to have.

Way more young people on the boards of agricultural organisations and

in leadership positions in AgriFood organisations, not so much because they

will be there to provide the leadership, but to your point, to be outnumbered

by young people is, uh, uh, not a bad situation to be in when it comes to

fostering, uh, leadership skills and the kind of responsibility, uh, we want.

These young people to take.

Uh, with that said, I'd love to hear more about the camp that you were at recently

and the other different programmes that you kind of have a hand in or are

participating in as part of the, the larger four H work that you're doing.

Barb Scott Cole: Well, I was at Future Leaders in Action Camp last

week at Muskoka in, in Muskoka, and uh, there was 36, um, senior four

H members from across the province.

Um, it we're gradually coming.

Back in our numbers with our senior camps, I, we lost so many of the kids

that would be senior members over COVID.

Um, the Youth Adventure Camp that'll be this summer is already

filled with a hundred kids.

So we've got that group coming up, but right now we have.

a small group of intermediate and senior members, but what a great bunch of kids.

I was at the camp, uh, provincial Leadership Camp and future Leaders

in Action are two different programmes, senior programmes,

and they alternate years.

So many of the, the kids that were there this year were also at PLC last year.

And to see, um, them grow in a year, what they have done in the

year since we've seen them was.

Just absolutely amazing.

And you can see how much more confident speakers they were.

Um, one of the youngest ones, uh, who came, uh, planned the programme one night

and MCed the whole event, and it was like, you couldn't do that last summer.

But now this is what you can do.

so in the, the camp is really fun.

The mornings are basic leadership training from dealing with conflict,

from understanding your own leadership style, um, to speaking to smart

goals, you know, all the, the basic package of, of leadership skills.

And then the afternoons they were doing high rope.

Challenges and, uh, hiking and learning how to build a fire with one match and,

and all kinds of outdoors activities, um, to burn off a little bit of energy,

but also fun and socialise, right?

You've gotta learn to work with people.

And then the, the kids were responsible for planning, um, the evening programme.

For everything.

So they had a chance to try out the skills they had learned each day and

then provide a, a fun and an inclusive event for everybody in the afternoon.

they were, they were great.

They, if they had spare time, they were line dancing.

So if that's the, you know, uh, you, you know, we weren't

chasing them out of the bush.

We weren't worried about anything.

They were, they were kids that were getting together and learning and

happily hanging out with each other.

And, and a quick two part follow up.

What is the age range that, that's quote unquote senior and what,

what happens when they age out?

Is, is there a a, a, a. A lost opportunity in terms of them ageing out?

Or is it just a, an assumption that they then naturally become leaders of

their communities and their workplaces and their organisations, uh, depending

where they fit within the, the broader sector and the broader society.

Barb Scott Cole: Well, the senior camps are for 15 to 21.

Largely, I think the oldest one person at this camp had just turned

20 because it starts to run into conflict with post-secondary programmes.

You know, it runs through the, you know, the, the high school March break, not.

The reading week for most universities and colleges.

So most of the kids are in grade 11 and 12.

you, reality, but you can't go till you're 21.

When they age out, um, like in my own association, we have two

junior directors on the board.

That space is safe for two.

Um, they have to be 18 to be a junior director because of the legal

obligations of a board structure.

So we certainly, uh, we've had youth directors for most

of this century for sure.

Uh, ever since we made that a recommendation and.

And that's a, a good opportunity.

Um,

is there anyone who fits that profile that we are not serving?

Is, is there young people who are going through the four H

process with tremendous potential?

All sorts of, you know, go get 'em, but.

There isn't anywhere in the industry.

There isn't anywhere in the governance structure.

There isn't anywhere in the association for them, you know, is, is there

a supply and demand problem here?

And to, to what end do we, do we need more young people ready to

take on leadership positions or do we need more leadership positions?

Because there's lots of young people who are itching to get in there.

Barb Scott Cole: Well, I think in ag there's what, three jobs for every

grad, at least three jobs waiting for every grad from an AG programme.

So I think there's a shortage of youth.

Right now, I think we're, we're starting to build up again, post COVID of having

those youth that are available to take the positions that have come up through

the four H programme and, and understand.

I think it's really important, um, for associations to have a youth director or

have a way that youth can participate.

Um.

And, uh, I know I was involved as a, as a young person in

Ploughman and my local Plowman's association and things like that.

Um, and you know, there's Junior Cattlemen's and Junior, but there

are a lot of, uh, organisations, but I guess as farm numbers get.

It's harder to fill it with kids and if, and with the age of, you know,

the average age of farmers being much closer to mine than my offspring,

um, you know, where are they?

You know, like I, I look at my of a. I have one niece who's got, has become

really involved in ag and she never thought about that as a career option

until she took a job and loved it.

You know, I have another niece that, uh, didn't study ag but went, uh, went

into ag as well, um, because there was, uh, you know, there was jobs and

opportunities that were interesting.

So I think it's a shortage of young people that come from farms.

and then there's so many other possibilities of careers.

So, you know, I. I don't know.

Um, I don't have a really good answer for you for that.

Let me ask what might be a naive question, but to your

earlier, a vocation might be a political or controversial question.

What about young people who aren't growing up on farms?

What about young people who are stuck in one of our cities and would love to be

able to find employment or entrepreneurial opportunity in the AgriFood sector?

Are there any four H chapters in Ontario cities or in Canadian cities?

Are there any urban organisations or agricultural organisations that are

targeting young people in cities?

Only because to go to our statistics, if one out a hundred, one out of a

thousand, one out of a hundred thousand, uh, might still be worth the effort.

Barb Scott Cole: Well, I think, there's a couple answers.

So Four H Ontario just received a grant to study that the feasibility

of, uh, more urban four H programmes, which I think is amazing.

Uh, an amazing opportunity.

I think we, um.

The States has done it better than us with their land grant universities,

and, you know, having four H and future Farmers of America involved in

schools, embedded in schools, and we just don't have that here in Ontario.

Um, I also think that ag is not considered, uh.

In any way, shape or form, uh, as a career option?

I think it's not presented, uh, as anything anybody does.

You know, it's just that old guy in his Coveys, you know, and this is

the international year of women in agriculture, so, or women farmers.

So I'm quite happy to, to be celebrating that one.

And my beans are gonna be better than your beans.

So there, um, um.

There.

I think in ag we tend to use jargon a lot.

And I was at a conference some years back that was talking

about the jobs in, in education.

So this was, uh, for, it was focused at high skills majors in agriculture

and horticulture and, uh, many of the speakers came back to it, you know, uh,

we're, we're not doing a good cell job in this 'cause we're agriculture and food.

Actually, you know what, we're, we're not just growing things

because we grow things, we're growing things because people need to eat.

And I, we need to be thinking more about careers that way.

Um, I don't think you're gonna get crowds of people like I did who

picked tomatoes and, and who, and, uh.

Worked in tobacco, uh, you know, to, to put themselves through school

that pet ships kind of sailed.

You know, we do have, um, technology, like I love those tomato

harvesters and, and thoughts as opposed to lugging those hampers.

But you know, wow, what a job.

If you're interested in machinery, you know what to design and

maintain a tomato harvester.

You know, we don't come at kids that way.

Um, you know, if you're, you wanna be a mechanic, well, you

know you're gonna be working on.

You know, the really exotic as if you're going to heavy equipment, but why not?

Like, why aren't we focusing on farm equipment as a career?

Or you're really interested in creating recipes and you, you know,

you want to, to bring new tastes in.

Well, that's part of the food industry.

So maybe if you want better tasting lentils, maybe you'd be very interested

in breeding lentils, you know, that are are better for Ontario regions.

We, but we don't.

And again, this, this falls on the rushed speed that we have in the education

system, that that information's there to give to guidance teachers, but they don't

even have time to read it and act on it.

And there's not very many teachers with an ag background

Yeah.

Barb Scott Cole: to even provide that insight in class.

Um.

I was always encouraging kids to, to think about farming and, and to think about,

uh, careers in ag, you know, that, that they hadn't, but that's my background.

That's my job.

If I had come from any other background, I would've been talking about that.

I would've been saying, you know, go get into tech because, but I'm

saying get into tech because Wow.

To have sensors that can grade potatoes, you know, that's something that,

that's gonna impact me every day.

Um.

So I, I think part of it is like when you're less than, when you're less than

2% of the population trying to convince other people to come and join you.

And either you're seen as that idyllic pastoral setting or your factory farming.

Um, there's not a lot in between and there's not a lot of listening.

And in and in ag we're very guilty of using our own jargon.

I used to say I was a cash cropper I grow corn and soybeans.

Right.

And that's what I do, and it makes perfect sense to me.

Um, but my, uh, daughter-in-law's parents say, well, how do you grow cash?

You don't seem to be very rich.

And it's, you know.

And so now I say I grow corn and soybeans, right?

I, uh, I grow, you know, the corn's for livestock feed and I, I sell my

soybeans to be crushed and sometimes they're exported for making tofu.

I happen to grow an IP variety, and I have to, and then I have to explain what IP

is, and then I have to explain, you know, how the whole, um, marketing system works.

And so.

Then people start to realise how complex the industry is.

But it, it took a long time for me to clue in that I wasn't speaking

it the same language as the

Wow.

Barb Scott Cole: talking to.

And, um,

That's, I think that's a really powerful metaphor that

a lot is lost in translation.

That we spend too much time talking amongst ourselves, that we forget

the necessity to translate our values, our understanding, our

appreciation, uh, for AgriFood and, and to your larger point, I think.

I as an aside, um, I would love to, if there is anyone at four H who is

working on that urban piece, uh, I would love to have them on the show

because I think what you are addressing here in, in the disconnect between

how people perceive agriculture and AgriFood and the legitimate

opportunities that I think a wide range of people currently living in cities

would absolutely love to be part of.

They just.

Don't have the secret handshake.

Right.

They, they don't know, you know, the, the kind of cultural connection and it,

this conversation is really reinforcing for me why four H is such an essential

part of that cultural fabric of that kind of leadership infrastructure.

So I, I'm curious if, given your kind of experience as an

educator, given your kind of.

Direct and ongoing contact with young people.

Let us have our kind of blue sky moment here.

If there were infinite resources, if there was infinite capacity, if the sector

as a whole all came together and said, you know, barb's really onto something,

what would be the kind of programmes, what would be the kind of initiatives?

What would be the kind of policies that would help, uh, uh, enable?

The kind of opportunities I think you and I are describing and, and an obvious

one, which I will say just to get out of the way, is yes, smaller class sizes,

a hundred percent right across the board, but I'm, I'm curious to hear what

other ideas, what other concepts that you think could be catalytic that that

could really allow for an actualization of the vision that you clearly have.

That I, I think we would all benefit from in terms of allowing more organisations,

more of the sector to to operate in the manner we're describing, even if

it's as simple as being surrounded by young people with crazy ideas.

Barb Scott Cole: Okay, manifesto here.

Um, I think, uh, my, my personal.

Leaf is that everybody should be responsible for, for producing

some of their own food.

If you, um, know what it takes to produce something, even if you have, you know,

a pot of tomatoes on, on your balcony and you grow lettuce on your window.

So I think that.

Is the first step.

And so if I had all the money in the world, I would have an outdoor

classroom in every school with a, a growing area to start plants.

I, I would absolutely do that and circle the curriculum around it

because it's, it's real, it's hands on.

Kids like, uh, the, the kids who, who left our meeting yesterday had dirt under their

fingernails, and they were, they were, um, planting their own pizza yesterday.

So they planted peppers, tomatoes, onions, basel, and oregano.

And so they'll be able to put sauce on their own pizza eventually.

Um.

And I think that's something that's really important.

Any school that has had a garden and has had that thing has

a better connection already.

And you know, studies across the world have indicated that, you know,

when the kids are involved in their own food production, then they're.

Excuse me.

Much more interested in nutrition and they're much more

interested in eating healthy.

You're more likely to eat a carrot you pulled out of a ground than one that

came out of a bag of baby carrots.

Um, you know, just because you had that connection to it.

And I think again, um.

I in, in terms of the indigenous worldview as well, like we're

looking that we are all, we're all related, we're all relatives.

So if, if we are contributing to producing our own food, we are also

understanding what we are getting in return and then we can start

to understand, you know, how, uh.

I, you know, if I, if we had, uh, all my plant waste goes

out to the chickens, right.

Or, and, and scraps go out there and so they're contributing

back because I'm feeding them.

I get eggs, you know, and, and that sort of small scale farming, I think

it's pretty doable for just about everybody and to have it in a school

setting and have that built in.

Yeah, the smaller classes would be great and, you know, but that whole sense

of responsibility, I think, you know.

Victory Gardens back in the forties and, you know, all that sort of thing.

was tremendous, you know, that that generation really knew how to do things

because they were doing it again.

You know, like it's that learn to do by doing.

Ke keeps sneaking in and you know, you can extend that right?

Uh, um, for food security.

If you're growing stuff at school and then maybe you have a day where you're making.

sauce and every kid takes a jar home, like every kid's going

to be that much better fed.

That's going to be something good.

But those skills don't just come from nowhere.

And so we almost need four H four grownups to reteach those skills that

have been lost in, you know, in the 60, 70 years since they've been taught.

I would absolutely love.

Sorry, just briefly, I just want to double jump in and say I would absolutely love

to see four H for adults the same way.

I would love to see four H in cities.

'cause to your point, there's a lot of people who just didn't have the

chance when they were young people and they would love to learn these skills

and get access to this knowledge.

Barb Scott Cole: And, you know, and maybe I'm falling, I I'm falling into

the algorithm of my social media, but it seems like there's a lot of people

talking about that too, you know?

Yeah.

I, I'm always happily doing that.

Um, behind the, uh, behind the door here is are my canning shelf.

So like, I don't buy a lot of things 'cause I have potatoes in

the basement and, you know, canned stuff in the, in the cupboards.

And so I, I think about it in a different way, and I've just always done it.

But as I've gotten older, you know, it's like, well, why

do I still choose to do this?

Why, you know, am I not going to no frills and just buying a can of spaghetti sauce?

Why am I, well, it's usually at about 11 o'clock at night of a day of cooking

down tomatoes that I'm thinking this.

but it's the day in February when I pull a can off the shelf and say,

man, this is really good, you know?

The peppers, you know, the peppers iger this year were pretty darn, you know,

flavorful or damn, these pickles are okay.

Um.

Not everybody has the luxury of doing that.

You know, I'm lucky.

I have the space, I have the garden, I have the skills, and it, it, it is almost

a luxury now instead of a necessity.

And like, so how do you do that?

So if you're starting the, with the kids, which four H did right from the beginning,

is teaching those skills to young people.

If we start with the kids, maybe by next generation we're gonna have adults

that are able to teach it and come back and help you with that, Jesse.

Well, it, I'm kind of blown away by the brilliance of the self-evident

idea of having every school have a garden or having every school have a kind

of, uh, growing an AgriFood programme.

'cause, you know, maybe there are some schools where a greenhouse might make a

little more sense in a garden, although I, I don't think they're mutually exclusive.

But it's also a lab, right?

It's also an an experimental space.

Like it's for learning, it's for experimenting.

And I think because we've falsely thought of agriculture as something

that is in history, not in the present, not in the future, we forget.

How central science and innovation is to the way we eat

and the way we produce our food.

So I, I think having mandating a garden in every school, having community centres,

having libraries, have gardens, uh, again as a place for people to learn, as a

place for people to get this knowledge.

I think it's a brilliant idea and, and one that really speaks

to how we've lost the skills.

I, I, I, I kind of shook my head when you said it's become

a luxury instead of a necessity.

I don't think so.

I think it is a necessity.

I think we have to return to thinking of it as a necessity, uh, if only so that we.

Eat better because I think to your point that food tastes better, your tomato

sauce is way better than the tomato sauce you'd get at the store and, and

probably more nutritional for you as well.

Barb Scott Cole: Well, I think so, but again, there's a lot

of unteaching for people.

Right, that it's too hard, it's too time consuming.

You know how many people sit down and eat a homemade meal every night?

You, you know, even I order p uh, you know, even I'm quite happy to

call Domino's, um, and have a pizza.

But we, you know what, what's more important?

You know, like we have this perception that, that, you know, our, our work

and our activities are, but you know, you go back to Maslow's hierarchy of

need and you need food, shelter, and protection from the elements, you know?

Um, so.

the most important thing, and when you boil it down, food

is the most important thing.

So having that ability to know how to grow it, to know how to

prepare it probably should be our first goal, our primary goal.

And you know, we, I would put that in the science curriculum a hundred percent.

You know, put that in the health curriculum and you

know, it, it belongs there.

But we've just, because I think we have a, a culture of abundance, you know,

since we're that, you know, food's always been there that we don't even.

Think about it as a necessity because we don't have to fight for it.

You know, it's been a long, cleaning up my mom's house.

I found ration coupons and, you know, it's been a long time

And I think we take for granted the, the, the systems

we have now and the way in which certainly in my lifetime, uh, we.

We haven't had the Victory Garden as a necessity.

It really has been something that is more, uh, a, a, a nice to

have rather than a need to have.

But the benefit of investing in the nice to haves is that when you need

to have 'em, you already have them.

So you already have that capacity and, and you already have that there.

Barb Scott Cole: No, that that's true, but we're really shortsighted.

You know it, you know what?

Remembering COVID when there was a shortage of yeast and a shortage of

flour, 'cause that's the first time in decades anybody baked and you know,

things are, are missing from the shelves.

And I think people are, it's.

Tweaking in their mindset, you know, maybe it, our food system isn't as

secure as we think it is, and we're, we're super lucky here in Canada.

But you know, like I, I've, I think I bought cauliflower last week.

That was a product of Mexico when it normally had come from California.

You know, we're, we're changing and that's that what we thought once was

secure and untouchable is not, and.

Well, I think I worry that we're going to, uh, figure it out as a society,

uh, too little, too late and, you know, at least, at least the kids that,

that the 12 kids that I was dealing with do know how to grow tomatoes now.

So, there's that.

What.

Barb Scott Cole: so yeah, I won't give, disclose the location where

they are, just in case tomatoes become incredibly valuable.

Well, and you know, to your point, part of the mandate of

this podcast, part of the mission of this podcast is to make sure

that it isn't too little, too late.

That we start to do, uh, what needs to be done.

Now we start to have the conversations, uh, we need to have now.

And Barb, that's where, uh, you have.

Uh, absolutely succeeded and have, uh, uh, fully demonstrated your bonafides

a as a leader within the sector.

And I say that partly as a setup for my last question, which is the shout

out part of the show because I always feel that any good leader is always

willing, uh, and ready to acknowledge.

Other leaders, uh, who they think we should be connecting with.

So, uh, it's meant to be spontaneous, but you know, who comes to mind?

Who are the people that you kind of pay attention to that, that you look

up to, that you think the rest of us should be similarly, uh, looking up.

Barb Scott Cole: I, I am gonna show to my two four H leaders right now.

Um, Jennifer Dolman and Alyssa Paver.

Um, they are both, uh, Aggie grads as well, but of different generations.

So it's really fun to, to work with a recent grad and a semi

recent grad, um, to do things.

Jen's really involved with the federation and Alyssa works in ag business.

So again, um, tremendous leadership.

Um.

I'm gonna shout out to Camden Lawrence and, and Tina Brant for, uh, bringing

four H um, back into ffo and supporting that in different communities.

And they were tremendous.

And I, I'm gonna just shout out to.

like to share it out to my, my four H leader to Mark Everly for asking

me and taking the time to do that.

Um, just to make sure she was, she was, had succession planning on her brain

long before I knew that of that term.

So I think that's, um, really important and there's so many really

great people that I've met everywhere across the province that have neat

ideas and are willing to share.

And for you that are too many to name, shout out to all of you.

Right on.

And you know, to that point we'd love to have you back only because I think we're

just sort of scratching the surface.

And you, you kind of evoke a, a sense in me that the leaders of the past

were kind of demagogues, who focused on ideology versus the leaders of the

future are pedagogues, who love to teach and who not so much rely upon

an ideology, but rely upon curiosity to better understand the world.

And I kind of feel you've really embodied that in, in a really inspirational way.

So before we end, uh, any final thoughts, anything that we didn't

talk about today that you would like to briefly mention before we end?

Barb Scott Cole: Um, yeah, four H has been my life.

Um, and you know, I, I have learned so much.

I think I've received so much more than I've been able to give.

And I think a lot of us who've been around who are still here, um, despite

our be our better impulses to retire.

Um, uh.

um, we just go, 'cause it's the kids.

We just do it for the kids because they, they make us laugh, they make us happy

and it's, it's all worthwhile that way.

You know, it's having that connection and that's why we keep doing it.

Right on.

Thanks.

Barb Scott Cole: Hey, you're very welcome.

I think a great takeaway from today's episode is we need to look at

the system differently, not as a set of outputs to optimise, but as a network

of people learning, coordinating and carrying something forward together.

'cause that's what I think Barb teaches us.

That the real infrastructure of agriculture isn't just

land equipment or even policy.

It's the relationships and most importantly, the learning environments

that make everything else possible.

And, and these don't just manifest outta nowhere, and more importantly,

they don't rebuild themselves.

They require intention.

Spaces where people can show up, ask questions, take on responsibility, and

grow into the roles they didn't expect.

They require institutions that stay close to the ground and leadership that

understands its role as connective, as empowering, not just telling people

what to do, and that work is slower.

Less visible, maybe even less rewarding.

Certainly harder to measure, but it's also what determines whether anything

sticks, whether we're gonna make progress.

So as you think about the future, whether you're a farmer or a policy maker, or

someone just trying to shape the system.

The question isn't what needs to change.

It's how we create the conditions for people to make that change, to learn,

to adapt, to really come together to make the kind of food that we as a

society fundamentally need and deserve.

And that's where the real work begins.

Now, a quick note on theme songs.

You'll notice the intro song today is the previous outro song, and I'm

using a different outro song today.

Part of this is me probing the copyright cops on the platform to see

what texts us, but I'm also trying to evoke an ethic, uh, a spirit, a vibe.

Uh, so I'd love to hear what you think.

Until next time, we'll see you in the future Herd.