In this episode of Coaching in Focus, host Joseph Grech welcomes Georgia Russell, founder of Spinach, to explore the transformative power of coaching in modern organisations.

They discuss the shortcomings of traditional learning methods and why coaching is poised to be the future of impactful learning. Georgia shares insights into the unique challenges faced by learners today, the importance of personalized coaching, and the benefits of democratising coaching across all organisational levels.

Discover how shorter, focused coaching sessions can drive sustainable personal and professional growth. Tune in to learn how coaching can help develop more resourceful, empowered, and self-aware individuals within your organisation.

[00:00:26] Joseph: as well about the power of coaching. So, we immediately connected and Georgia has very kindly agreed to be on today's podcast with me. And I'm really inspired by Georgia's work and I look forward to discussing this with Georgia today. So, Georgia, how are you doing?

[00:00:46] Joseph: So maybe, shall we start with this idea about impactful learning and why you believe that learning in organisations in a way. is broken and that coaching really represents the future of impactful learning.

[00:01:14] Georgia: So I think there was like a statistic, uh, it was released a couple of years ago, and it said that 75 percent of learners are dissatisfied with the solutions, the learning solutions that they're being given, which is really quite shocking that it's 75 percent and actually really really sad to think that it's 75 percent because I know a load of learning and development and specialists put so much time, energy, money into the solutions that they roll out within the workplace.

[00:02:05] Georgia: So if you look at long form learning, so maybe like an eight week program, that you have to go on. That's a lot of time out of your diary and most people are extremely busy doing their job, managing a team of people, um, and I think like the number one biggest blocker to engaging with learning it is time.

[00:02:45] Georgia: And I think for a lot of people, it's just not relevant, or a lot of this, the content isn't relevant. And so they're, you know, they're giving up all of this, Time to go on this pro whatever it is, the program maybe, and it just doesn't feel relevant to them. So, you know, they're disengaged and yeah, it's this one size fits all model.

[00:03:24] Georgia: Uh, times transfer equation.

[00:03:27] Georgia: Yeah, so learning times transfer equals effectiveness. And actually what most companies do is they focus on the learning part of that equation at the actual learning event. Um, and that's great. And even if you have like this wonderful program that you go on and you're like really inspired when it's done and you're like, I'm going to go out and put all of this great stuff into practice.

[00:04:15] Georgia: And nothing's different as a result of the learning event. So I think that's a challenge and that's a potential risk with companies. And then I think the last part of why learning isn't as effective as it could be is because I think people are overwhelmed. We're getting an influx of information everywhere we turn.

[00:05:06] Georgia: So people, so just to summarize that, I guess it's people don't need more information. They need better ways to apply what they already know, application piece. And that's where I think coaching can really come in.

[00:05:29] Joseph: And I feel One thing that I was thinking about was around how organizations measure learning. Like, it's really difficult to measure the transfer of learning that you're talking about. I think organizations, in a way, are comforted by the fact that learning events are happening. They can measure them.

[00:06:11] Joseph: And that's because we can't really measure it fully.

[00:06:38] Georgia: Like we know that, but we don't always do it. And so it's that difference between knowing something and being something. We really focus on, on the being, on the transferring what we know into our everyday lives. That's the key piece for me. And there are lots of things that will stop us from transferring that knowledge from what we want to be into actually being it, you know, it comes up in coaching again and again and again.

[00:07:22] Joseph: So I'm guessing here, what you're saying is that, that is part of the reason why coaching is kind of the future of learning, because it supports that transfer of learning, that individual reflection, that reflective process, that supports more of a one to one basis.

[00:07:42] Georgia: it links back to what you said. It's of like, it's so important because if not, it's, it's a false return on investment. So when you think about coaching, the beauty of it is it factors in context. And what I mean by that is, um, so say, for example, I'm a manager.

[00:08:17] Georgia: So My team that I might have underneath me or my manager who might be great or not so great or the business that I operate in. So all of this context that's so personal to the individual, that's what coaching factors in. And I think again, linking back that that's the problem with like off the shelf learning solutions is it doesn't factor in complex and individual context of the individual.

[00:09:10] Joseph: The feedback that we provide in a one-to-one context where we are supporting that person develop their coaching skills within their own context, and they're getting feedback on how the coaching in that context. So I think that really is important.

[00:09:33] Georgia: And I think especially if you look at like younger workforces, so like Gen Z, I do think that personalization Of an experience is an expectation. Now, everything we consume is personalized. Like the adverts that are pushed to us. Um, if we go and sign up and want to get fit, we want a personal trainer, or at least a program that's personalized to us.

[00:10:20] Joseph: Um, the other thing I feel where perhaps and see what you think about this.

[00:10:34] Georgia: The point that demonstrates that perfectly is the principle in coaching, which, which says, and is drummed into us as coaches, coach the person.

[00:11:03] Georgia: It can be really tempting to focus on, on the problem or fix the problem or the challenge because. When we fix the problem or focus on the challenge, we get that instant feedback like, Oh, you fixed my problem. And I feel great now and I'm happy and you're a great coach and you're doing your job really well.

[00:11:49] Georgia: Next month or the month after inevitably that person will just be back in the room with you with a new problem or a new challenge because that's, that's life. That's human nature, like the world moves on, new challenges come up, people evolve and change. And so actually what you're doing is not helping people, you're creating a cycle of dependency there.

[00:12:44] Georgia: And that is a much more sustainable way of, of yeah, developing people and growing workforces, I think.

[00:13:17] Joseph: We also have a number of CPD programs and certificates. Including mentoring and supervision to find out more go to to become. org or just check the show notes

[00:13:57] Georgia: Yeah But it's that weird mix of although you recognize that just like it's also a weird thing as a coach to know that your end Goal is in a certain amount of months time.

[00:14:17] Joseph: Yeah, exactly that. I think of my clients and coaching as in a way I'm developing them to be their own coaches within their own right so they can coach themselves Rather than becoming reliant on me,

[00:14:42] Georgia: And it's hard to be self aware when you first come into coaching. That's why you need a coach to help you to, you know, hold a mirror up to you and go, Okay, like this is what I'm seeing you're doing this really well. Here are your blind spots. Here's a perspective you might not have considered. Um, you know, that's why people come to coaching, but, but you're right, like by the end of your coaching relationship, hopefully they will You know have that self awareness and then be able to to choose themselves without our support as coaches.

[00:15:11] Joseph: that's right They're becoming more resourceful in the way that they're approaching problem solving and not just thinking about Um problem solving as one problem. It's about how do we support? How do we as coaches support the client develop their skills to be more sustainable in terms of long term change?

[00:15:33] Georgia: Exactly that, because, yeah, it comes back to that sustainability piece of, like, there will always be a never ending amount of things, of stuff that we come up against. That, that's just life, and that's being human. If we can look inwards more, around, okay, well, irrelevant of what's going on outside of me, if I can focus on my mindset, or how I choose to, to show up in, in this situation, or how I choose to tackle that.

[00:16:06] Joseph: That's right. They're becoming more resourceful in the way that they're approaching problem solving. And not just thinking about, um, problem solving as one problem. It's about how do we support, how do we as coaches support the client develop their skills to be more sustainable in terms of long term change when they're working with different kind of challenges.

[00:16:49] Georgia: So first of all, the group of people who are entering the workforce. Um, making sure they know they're up to, up to speed, they're upskilled in the ways they need to be looking on, you know, have we got any sort of like high potential talent down there that we really want to bring up? And then they also focus on, you know, right at the top of the organization.

[00:17:35] Georgia: And they probably, you know, You know, have got some initiative, they can be trusted to get on and figure it out and just do. And so companies don't spend much, much time there. But actually, this is the band of people who have the most Touch points within the organization. Um, they have a team of people or people who report up to them.

[00:18:18] Georgia: You know, so miserable for us. And it really does have such an impact on our lives, not only in work, but outside of work, and that's just a terrible place to be when you're sitting under a rubbish manager. And we also on the flip side had. The opposite experience, hopefully, of where you've operated up a wonderful manager.

[00:18:57] Georgia: Because they'll be having an impact, whether it's. That's good, bad, or just indifferent.

[00:19:17] Joseph: We know that sometimes coaching and organizations is kind of provided only to people at senior levels. within the organization rather than across the organization. So I know we both value this idea about democratizing coaching in organizations, and that is really important for us. What do you think are the benefits of this approach?

[00:19:44] Georgia: Exactly. There's this really wonderful video called, um, it's called Turn the Ship Around. It demonstrates your point wonderfully. It's about instead of just having like one really great captain leading the ship, um, to a certain destination, can we empower people so that you have, you know, a thousand autonomous, effective, problem solving, intelligent brains.

[00:20:29] Georgia: It's a certain skillset. That is why I think coaching, getting it in at that lower level is so important. important.

[00:20:50] Joseph: It was very much so, like we were saying earlier, fixing a problem. I found a lot of managers focused on the aspect of management, but actually not supporting individual development. So it's kind of a technical thing. Yeah. Uh, but from a management point of view, the manager would ideally be supporting the individual, figuring out how to solve that problem, the opportunity, that challenge, so that the person can become more resourceful in the future as well.

[00:21:46] Georgia: They have limited budgets. And so I don't know many companies who can afford to go and spend, you know, four grand ahead every year and put that in at every level of the organization. So I basically wanted to create something that meant we could just get it to people earlier on in their careers. So it needed to be more accessible.

[00:22:26] Joseph: Yeah, tell us a bit more about the things that you do. I'm intrigued about how you support organisations achieve a level of quality in terms of coaching sessions. But at the same time making them kind of more affordable and making them more, um, accessible to other people as well.

[00:22:51] Georgia: First one is, is that the sessions are 25 minutes long. There might be coaches listening to this. podcast. So with an audible intake, like a gasp, like, what do you do in 45 minutes? That's often some of the pushback that I hear. And I completely get that. But you know, we did extensive testing around, you know, what's the minimum amount of time that we can coach for?

[00:23:42] Georgia: So most people can, can fit in 25 minutes in a month and actually come to a session and be really focused. Okay, this is where I am. This is where I want to be. And how can we do a deep dive really quickly to unlock the thing that's going to make the difference for me. So that's the first thing, it's about time.

[00:24:20] Joseph: And I feel what you're saying here, Georgia, is that. It relates to the same philosophy. Like if you know you've got 25 minutes, then you've got to go in and make the most of those 25 minutes, because really every minute counts.

[00:24:38] Georgia: I mean, one of the things that people say is, well, you know, what about context? And it's going to take me 10 minutes to, um, you know, get my coach up to speed with what's happening. And I guess my challenge back to that would be, and I don't know if you have thoughts on this, but as a coach, I don't need to know the whole story that we can get wrapped up in this storytelling thing of all this happened and then this and like as a coach to help you to move forward.

[00:25:17] Joseph: 100%. I, I completely, I think being in coaching, we sometimes talk about challenging the client and supporting the client to explore a little bit deeper and a bit further, and that they might be a bit uncomfortable with some of that challenge.

[00:26:03] Georgia: You're right, like, I think if we're doing great work as coaches, or if the relationship is working, it can feel like we're sort of on this little edge where it's a little bit uncomfortable. We, we don't know everything or we don't know where the conversation might be going. We just sort of like riding on an intuition as a coach, but.

[00:26:39] Joseph: I also feel really bad because I cut you off there.

[00:26:51] Georgia: Yeah, so no, so that's, that's one feature. And the other feature that allows us to, like I said, maintain quality, but really reduce the price point is, um, and this is going to be another controversial one is we don't have continuity of coach.

[00:27:31] Georgia: Like I get it, you know, what you're walking into. It's that place of comfort, of knowing, of control. But actually my challenge to that would be is that you're getting 12 different learning experiences. So 12 different coaches and each coach is It's so unique and individual, and they all have a different way of getting you to where you need to be.

[00:28:18] Georgia: Like you're showing up as you are right now, and I'm going to support you in this moment. And so, yes, I get that that might feel uncomfortable for, for some coaches and for some coaches, but actually we see, you know, the feedback is, it is incredible. And people, Have so much growth and development seeing a different coach each time.

[00:28:40] Joseph: I remember when you first told me about it, you probably noticed the look on my face. I was like, so they don't see the same coach across the sessions. And I do understand that from a practical point of view though, if we're really focusing on making coaching more accessible, then we're looking at it in a way from what can we offer to organizations so that we can provide a level of quality of service to individuals, but to a wider audience.

[00:29:07] Georgia: Yeah, I agree with you. Like, look, I think if you have the budget to give an executive level coach to everyone in your company, like do it, but you're right. We need to find innovation, innovative, new ways. To democratize coaching, so something has to give. And ultimately, yes, if I was going out, and, you know, our feedback was rubbish, I wouldn't be pushing it, or people wouldn't be buying it.

[00:29:39] Joseph: Yeah, and there's also a lot of things in coaching that we don't know. There's not enough research that actually shows that continuity does offer support on certain outcomes that the client wants to achieve.

[00:29:55] Georgia: And I would always ask the question of, okay, well, if you believe that continuity of coach is important, like why, why is that important? And the pushbacks I get are, well, it's about, you know, creating and building trust. and rapport And actually I think okay.

[00:30:25] Joseph: I also feel it helps to create trust in the model and the way that The client is really clear, the expectation is set that we're meeting for a 25 minute session.

[00:30:44] Georgia: Exactly that and, and yeah, and I, and I do think, you know, the things like the 25 minutes is bite sized learning, that's not a compromise for a lot of people. It's, it's a preference.

[00:31:04] Joseph: So Georgia, before we end our episode today, I just want to ask you, if some organizations are thinking about integrating more coaching into their strategies, particularly as we're saying into this kind of forgotten middle, is there a tip or anything that you can share with us?

[00:31:47] Georgia: So I think a lot of companies, You know, want to have a coaching culture or want their managers to lead in a, in a coaching style. But most people, especially at that middle manager level, don't know, don't really know what coaching is. Um, they don't have an idea of what good looks like. They think it's telling someone what to do really nicely.

[00:32:30] Georgia: So, so a lot of companies will put certain people within the organization through coach certification. That's great and a really sustainable, affordable way to get coaching in. I think there are some challenges with that around confidentiality of having someone who sits within the business coaching you.

[00:33:12] Georgia: It's not just telling people what to do nicely. It's about powerful questions and holding space and, you know, active listening and curiosity.

[00:33:31] Joseph: And I'm sure our audience has really enjoyed today's episode as well.

[00:33:39] for having me.