Have you ever wondered if bigger always means better when it comes to church communities? In this eye-opening episode of Seek Go Create - The Leadership Journey, host Tim Winders sits down with New Testament professor and author Scot McKnight to challenge the conventional wisdom of mega churches and explore the critical role of genuine pastoral care. Listen in as they delve into the deconstruction movement, the true essence of pastoral calling, and the importance of encountering Jesus in our spiritual journeys. Don't miss this thought-provoking conversation that might just reshape your perspective on faith and community.

"Deconstruction isn't about losing faith—it's about shedding what doesn’t align with Jesus to reconstruct a healthier faith." - Scot McKnight

Access all show and episode resources HERE

About Our Guest:

Scot McKnight is a distinguished New Testament professor, prolific author, and thought leader in contemporary Christian theology. With a Ph.D. in New Testament from the University of Nottingham, he has authored more than 80 books, including the critically acclaimed "Invisible Jesus," co-authored with Tommy Phillips. McKnight's work frequently explores themes of faith deconstruction, spiritual formation, and pastoring, emphasizing a Jesus-first approach to Christianity. He is a sought-after speaker and a respected voice in both academic and pastoral circles, known for his profound insight and engaging discourse on church practices and theological crises.

Reasons to Listen:

1. Insight on Effective Pastoring: Discover Scot McKnight's compelling argument on why true pastoral care is limited to smaller congregations, challenging the scale of mega churches.
2. Deconstruction in Faith: Explore the thought-provoking discussion on faith deconstruction and how it pushes for a Jesus-first approach, shedding light on the spiritual formation movement.
3. Critique of Modern Church Practices: Gain critical perspectives on popular church structures and the necessity of nurturing Christ-like character over church growth and entertainment-focused ministry.

Episode Resources & Action Steps:

Resources Mentioned:

1. Book: "Invisible Jesus: A Book About Leaving the Church and Looking for Christ" by Scot McKnight and Tommy Phillips A significant part of the episode's discussion that addresses deconstruction and pushing for a Jesus-first faith.

Action Steps:

1. Assess Your Pastoral Relationships: Scot McKnight encourages potential pastors and church leaders to evaluate their current pastoral relationships and focus on nurturing individuals into Christ-likeness.
2. Engage in Faith Deconstruction Thoughtfully: Reflect on McKnight's definition of deconstruction as shedding non-essential elements of church practices to reconstruct a Jesus-shaped faith. Consider how this can apply to your personal spiritual journey.
3. Prioritize Personal Engagement Over Charismatic Preaching: Take actionable steps to prioritize personal, pastoral relationships in your church community, focusing on direct engagement rather than solely relying on charismatic preaching. Consider smaller group formations or classes for better spiritual formation.

Resources for Leaders from Tim Winders & SGC:

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Key Lessons:

1. Limitations in Effective Pastoring: Scot McKnight argues that meaningful pastoral care can effectively scale to about 100-200 individuals. Beyond this, the personal engagement and relationships necessary for nurturing Christ-likeness become challenging to maintain.
2. Call to Reimagine Church Practices: Both Scot McKnight and Tim Winders emphasize the need to focus on direct pastoral care and spiritual formation rather than entertainment-centric mega church models. They critique the inaccessibility of prominent pastors and the tendency to prioritize charismatic preaching over genuine pastoral engagement.
3. Understanding Faith Deconstruction: McKnight reframes "deconstruction" as a process of shedding non-essential church practices that don't align with Jesus' teachings, aiming to reconstruct a more authentic Jesus-shaped faith. His insights reveal that deconstruction isn't about abandoning faith but reorienting it more closely to Christ-like values.
4. Spiritual Formation and Leadership: Emphasizing the importance of character in leadership, McKnight champions qualities that align with the fruits of the spirit—kindness, goodness, and faithfulness—over success metrics like church growth and attendance. He stresses that genuine spiritual formation requires smaller, more intimate settings.
5. Centering Faith on Jesus: The discussion underscores the critical need for church attendees to encounter Jesus rather than merely being drawn to the pastor or the music. Encountering Jesus is the essence of church, and failing this central aim implies a failure in the church's mission.

Episode Highlights:

00:00 Introduction: Encountering Jesus in Church

00:40 Guest Introduction: Scott McKnight

01:43 Defining Deconstruction

06:44 Spiritual Formation vs. Deconstruction

12:54 Qualities of a Good Pastor

16:31 Challenges of Modern Pastoring

24:00 Deconstruction and Theological Questions

39:23 Final Thoughts and Reflections

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Book Coaching Call

Every person who goes to a church should walk away saying, when

I was there today, I saw Jesus.

They should not walk away saying that's a great pastor.

Or, that's a beautiful piece of music.

Those things are all fine to say, but if they don't, if they come away

and they did not encounter Jesus, they've, the church has failed.

So yeah, there's one place, one person to go to, it's Jesus.

Um, uh,

In a world where many are deconstructing their faith, what can we learn from

studying the causes rather than judging or just ignoring the issue?

Listen as we answer this question and more with Scott McKnight,

a New Testament professor and prolific author of over 90 books.

His latest book, Invisible Jesus, a book about leaving the

church and looking for Christ.

Co authored with Tommy Phillips, tackles the deconstruction movement

head on, viewing it not as a crisis, but as a prophetic movement that

urges a return to a Jesus first faith.

Scott, welcome to Seek Go Create.

thank you very much for this invitation.

It's good to be with you.

good to have you here too, Scott.

I just finished reading Invisible Jesus really just about 30 minutes ago.

It poked at me some, but, we'll talk about that in a little while.

then I read Revelation for the rest of us a few weeks ago.

we're gonna have fun tying some things together, my first question, I'm gonna let

you Pick which question is my first one.

Scott, I used to ask the question, what do you do as sort of an icebreaker

and get started, I've recently started giving people the choice of, would

you rather answer the question, what do you do or who are you?

Which question would you prefer to be the first question?

Well, I hope that everybody would want to answer who are you?

I'm a follower of Jesus.

I'm a husband.

I'm a father.

I'm a teacher.

mostly I am someone who, is indwelt by the spirit.

And I am in Christ, and I've just been reading 1 John, and how we are

in God, and God is in us, and we are in Christ, and Christ is in us, and

we are in the Spirit, and the Spirit is in us, and love is in us, etc.

So that's, who I think I am.

That's good and you are correct that most people are leaning

towards answering that Who are you?

But I think it takes some people back depending on business people and

Yeah,

to giving a

yeah.

So I appreciate that and thanks for answering that

I know i've got a Boatload of questions here and I know we're

sort of limited to time, but I think I would love to start with asking

for a few definitions from you.

the first definition kind of revolves around the book Invisible

Jesus that, just recently released as the time we're, recording this.

and the big word that you're using there is the word deconstruction.

And my observation, Scott, is that there, there's some people throwing that

word around in a lot of different ways.

So how do you define deconstruction or how do we want to frame it for

the conversation we're going to have?

In this book, deconstruction refers to shedding elements of a local church's

faith, or a denomination's faith.

that were not important to Jesus.

we don't use it in the classic philosophical sense that it's the self

destructive dimensions of power claims.

That can be unmasked by unraveling it by chasing down its own assumptions.

We're using it for the process that believers, Christians, are using

to shed elements that they are finding in a church that they think

are just not important to Jesus.

So, that's what we mean by it.

on perspective, is it a good word or a bad word?

for us, you know, I don't want to get into the debate.

With deconstructors or critics of deconstructors of whether it's a good

term or a bad term because for us it's a real term It's it's a term people are

using for a process of shedding elements of the faith so they can reconstruct

a healthier Jesus shaped faith.

So for us, it's a term that we use that we want to listen to the people

who use this term for themselves to find out what's going on in the

church and with these people's faith.

Seems to have, there seems to be some gasoline that's been poured on this fire

recently, or is that just our observation?

I think you're right.

I think it's a fresh, expression of a term.

I was talking to an Old Testament scholar who said, well, the prophets

were the original deconstructors.

And then Tommy often says, Jesus was a deconstructor.

And others would say, John in the book of Revelation is a deconstructor

I think that this is true.

And the Reformation is an ultimate deconstruction movement.

it launched Reformanda Semper, Semper Reformanda, always reforming.

And if we really believe that the church constantly has to go back to scripture

to see its faithfulness, and if we really believe the church is honest and fair,

it will always find dimensions of the faith that need to be shed so the church

should always be deconstructing, but there's a little bit of a trend going

on right now with this term, and it pertains to a certain group of people.

Now, some people are using it for those who completely walk away from the faith.

But our study, we had access to a proprietary study that discovered

that 86 percent of people who use the word deconstruction for

themselves remain in the church.

So it's not, you know, We're concerned with that 86%.

The 14 percent I think would be dealt with in a different way, but we have

found the voices of the Deconstructors to be prophetic They're telling us

about some things going on in the church that we need to listen to.

right?

So what's interesting for me, Scott, is that I didn't grow up.

In or around the church, I got saved at 28 years old is what many would say

would be my, the date, but I did grow up in the southern US, Bible belt culture

where people pretty much thought just by association, they were Christians, So, and

I was also saved in a business setting.

So I've actually realized that I just have never liked a lot of we

will call the church was doing.

I just, and I'm not anti church, but I was.

Probably more hypercritical or I just like going, what are they doing here?

What are they talking about?

Because it doesn't fit with some things I'm looking for.

And so kind of my next, maybe a definition question that kind of came to my mind as

I was reading through book over the last few days is, We hear a lot of people,

you know, Dallas Willards and people like that talk about spiritual formation.

A lot of people in theology schools and things like that.

And then we have deconstruction as y'all talk about it in your book.

And to me, From my journey, it seems like there's a relationship there,

but could you compare and contrast spiritual formation, people just going

through their journey to get closer to Christ or get closer to where they need

to be, and then deconstruction where people are kind of walking away from a

church world to get closer to Christ?

Closer to Christ if I if I worded any of that wrong, correct me But is there

any relation between those two or am I just trying to make something of nothing?

No, I don't think you are.

I knew Dallas Willard a little bit, and I followed his movement,

and I know those who are closely associated with him, or were.

And Dallas, I think, would, partake in a sense of deconstruction, although

as a philosopher, he'd probably want to use the word the way the French

deconstructors do it, so he wouldn't say it's part of the church, but he

would say that the church needed to be deconstructed In that, it wasn't leading

people to Christ likeness, which was sort of his agenda, through the spiritual

disciplines and he's very individualistic in the way he frames the Christian life.

it's not very church centered, so he doesn't do much of the group stuff.

Dallas Willard would say there's a lot of things that go on in the church

that are largely a waste of time.

And that we would do better, having smaller classes and having people

ponder, more, serious issues of gravity.

I'm sure he would say that deconstruction is in some ways the

heartbeat of what was going on in the spiritual formation movement.

Richard Foster, James Bryan Smith.

Now, James Bryan Smith is much more oriented toward a local church.

But they all, focus on individual.

Personal formation into Christ likeness and anything that doesn't

move in that direction in a church could very well be wasting our time.

Hmm, and there's a lot of that going on right now,

I don't quite orient myself toward those categories, but I know that, I'm

certain that Richard Foster and Dallas Willard would say that very thing.

I'm not going to speak for James Bryan Smith,

right?

because he's so committed to the local church.

I don't know what he would say about that.

Wrestle at times internally with My internal criticisms of the local church

versus voices in my head and spirit.

And it could be, you know, dogma that came from where I grew up of don't,

don't mess with that local church.

And, when I read through invisible Jesus that you and Tommy wrote,

and Tommy is a local pastor, I think we need to mention that,

yeah, he is.

y'all still have a heart that local church body.

it's not as if you're trying to throw that out.

Correct.

that's right.

in fact, what we're saying is these Deconstructors are not leaving the church.

They're leaving a church and largely, gravitating toward another church

that is more consistent with what they think Jesus wants for his church.

So, in a sense, they're uber committed to the church.

and willing to abandon churches that they don't think are consistent with

what Jesus wants for his people.

So, yes, we perceive 86 percent of those committed to the church, and both

Tommy and I are committed to the church.

Tim, I grew up under the teachings of Francis Schaeffer when I was, a

college student, and Francis Schaeffer handed on to me Some very severe

critiques of the American church.

So as a college student, I'm 20, 21, 22 years old, and I've got some

weapons in my hands because of Francis Schaeffer and those weapons, I was

using and peeled off a lot of things.

in my fundamentalist past.

And there were times when I knew a lot more about what I didn't

believe than what I did believe.

And it took a while.

It took me another decade probably to flesh out what I thought

the church should be all about.

And I'm not saying that we've ever attended a church that lives up to

those expectations, but I'm a Bonhoeffer reader, and I know we have to surrender

our dreams of what the church could be for what the church actually is.

Hmm.

And I've often said, you have to lower your expectations of the

church to find the fullness of the expectations that we should have.

Now there's a, I think it was chapter nine in the book that, I was so thankful

that I got to this place where y'all were talking about what to look for

in a pastor or what to look for in leaders, I think was what it was.

Because in

Yeah.

at times, Scott, I'm thinking.

really, this is a negative thought, I know, but there's really no one

else, no one out there to follow.

And I think the message is we shouldn't be following men.

We should be being more Christ like.

But y'all gave some examples of, I think, some bad traits and then some

traits to look for in that chapter.

That's it.

Chapter nine.

and so I'd love to talk to because we do have a lot of leaders.

We have leaders that are listening in probably in ministry and business scott,

so Give give just some thoughts there We're going to obviously recommend

people read the book but just give some thoughts about what leaders to be doing

when it comes to, either the local church or even, I mean, some business

guys I think could learn from this.

How do they need to be leading in the world we are in today?

This will probably

Yeah.

late 2024.

People might be listening in 2025.

How should leaders that are attempting to be Christ like be?

should they be leading

Yeah, I think that they should lead from their character.

And Tommy, is an addict of the fruit of the spirit, which is a good thing.

He often brings in the fruit of the spirit.

So in that very chapter where Tommy is talking we both write this book

for what to look for in a pastor.

I thought this was really important for him to draft for himself

because he's a pastor after all.

It's a lot easier.

For them to listen to one of their own kind, loving and joyful and peaceful

and patient and kind and good and faithful and gentle and self control

that's all from the fruit of the spirit.

But I would say I would, reduce this in a sense and gather it

all into the bundle of character.

When a person has a Tove or a good character, they make good decisions.

They relate to people in the right way.

They, pursue a vision that is shaped by goodness rather

than by, let's say success.

So I would say that we would say a good pastor is someone who leads from character

and that character ultimately would be Christ likeness or the fruit of the spirit

or the beatitudes or following Jesus.

Rather than, let's say, their success, their skills, their preaching ability,

their entrepreneurial, set, their vision, their enthusiasm, their charisma,

and look, Tim, we all know that this is what churches end up finding.

They have a big platform.

They want someone to fill that platform and make it bigger

and bring people to the church.

Put butts in the pews.

Butts in the pews mean bills in the plate.

Bills in the plate might mean baptisms in the water.

Baptisms in the water might be buildings on the campus.

And they see this process and there are, there is a skill set that can

accomplish this, that can be absent or minimal amount of character.

And we both believe that.

We should focus on character and we should be following people of character.

the one thing I'll just mention something that nags at me and I'll

let you respond to it Because I I don't and I totally agree with that

But one of the things that bothers me is the systems i'm a systems guy.

I'm an engineer from georgia tech So I look at the structure of what

we're doing and I i've often wondered scott we've created the structures

And asked what will, I'm doing air quotes for those listening, if you're

watching the video, you see, ask pastors do some things that are almost.

impossible for a human individual to do.

And let me give you the context for it.

And then you could agree, disagree, throw stuff at me, whatever you'd like to do.

I've often wondered if to actually pastor someone

It can't be done to scale.

It's, it's done in small settings.

I mean, the biblical example that I see, there was about 12, maybe

a few more, maybe a few less.

wondering if to put 200, 400, 600, 10, 000 an auditorium and say that's a pastor.

I mean, are we, are we it the wrong thing or are we structurally wrong?

Am I missing something here?

What are your thoughts when I bring that up?

Are we

putting men and

I'm totally with you.

in position to fail almost immediately?

Okay.

I think we put people in positions to succeed at what we want on that platform.

All right.

So, but that doesn't make them a pastor.

what we've created is a platform for someone who has the skill

to keep our attention for approximately 45 minutes once a week.

Okay.

And frankly, there are some really good people who can do this.

But you cannot pastor 20, 000.

You cannot pastor 10, 000.

You cannot pastor a thousand.

You, you can't really pastor much more than, I know 12 is what Jesus has, but

that's a little, that's a little easy to latch on to a number, If you have

time and you have presence, I suppose you can pastor 100 to 200 people.

I don't know.

I mean, I'm not a pastor, but I am in pastoral relations, as it were, as a

professor of seminary students with dozens of seminary students who rely on

me for wisdom and advice and suggestions.

but I'm not, I'm not truly pastoring them in the sense of

mentoring them in the faith.

And it is true that you can mentor someone, some people you can

mentor for a year, and they're so skilled as Christians, they grow

so quickly that they can kind of move on and you can just be there.

And occasionally have conversations over coffee.

Others take more work.

And so I, I'm totally, I understand what's going on in churches, big churches

with amazing speakers and amazing performers on the, on the platform

with music, I get that and it draws people in, but that's not pastoring.

Pastoring is to nurture.

a person into Christ likeness.

And nurturing requires presence.

It requires relationship.

It requires time.

I mean, I know lots of these pastors who are on these big platforms that

you couldn't get to, you couldn't get to with a, with a, I don't know,

with an Uzi, with a, um, a huge army vehicle blasting down doors.

I mean, there's so many layers.

I don't understand how that's a pastor.

Uh, but I do know what preaching is, and that's what we've created

in our churches, is platforms for preachers who can bring people into the

a

church.

lot of entertainment factor and I sometimes joke smoking mirrors when I

mean smoking fog machines But smoking mirrors our son had a situation.

He was at a church in la, uh semi famous Pastor and younger going

through some stuff and we just kind of recommended, Hey, why don't

you talk to someone at church?

He served on their cleanup team.

So he cleaned the bathrooms and all that kind of stuff.

Hey, you're serving there.

You're giving there, you know, go, ask one of the assistants.

I know you're not going to get to the main guy because he's famous.

And even the assistant, which you called hirelings, I think in the book, even,

yeah,

assistant, this was the comment they made.

And truthfully, it ticked off mom and dad was my time is not my own.

I don't have time to meet with you and have a conversation.

And you know, this was, you know, our son, young man that was going through

stuff, probably had Was it deconstructing?

I don't know.

Might've been, you know, he's.

Gone through a lot of questions and stuff is solid young guy.

But anyway, I, I see that and that grieves me we have those situations.

should, it should grieve you, that's, that's the task of a pastor.

Right,

And you shouldn't call yourself a pastor.

You know, when, when students come to me, Tim, I, I get students who are

thinking about becoming pastors too.

I used to get more of them when I was, when I was teaching undergrads, but.

They'll come to me.

Do you think I should be a pastor?

And I always ask this question.

Who are you pastoring right now?

And who considers you their pastor?

Because if both of those answers are nobody and nobody,

then you're not a pastor.

Pastoring is not a job.

It's a calling.

And I know a lot of pastors, and they pastor people.

They pastor everybody they talk to, and it's the way they are.

That's the gift that God has given them.

So I'm, I'm totally with you.

I think we got a, a massive problem, uh, in creating platforms that

attract charismatic personalities and Lots of whom are narcissists

who, um, who can really entertain.

I, I, you know, I, I wouldn't even reduce it to entertainment.

They're just really gifted speakers and they can pull it off.

I mean, I, I love to listen to Andy Stanley, you know, I, I really do.

I, I, I'd sit and stop and listen to Andy Stanley.

Um, and I know he pastors people on the staff, people around him.

I know him well enough to know that.

But.

Uh, you can't pastor the massive audience that he has, um, but there

aren't very many people who have those kind of speaking skills that can,

that can hold an audience like that.

I mean, those are, that's really quite a gift.

And it's unfortunate that little churches are just pouring all their

people into these big churches in part because the, the local pastor can't,

can't, can't perform the way he's at.

Those megachurch people can.

right.

It was, uh, I'm going to shift a little bit and maybe look more at this circle

back to the, to the deconstruction topic and some of the reasons for it.

And it was, it was good for me.

I think I was able to read your revelation for the rest of us, uh, a few weeks ago.

It seems to me like some of the big questions that come up, and maybe this

is of the results of this 86%, this study that y'all were able to get access to,

seems as if there are two, two big topics that are kind of driving people to have

questions that, Individuals need to answer and then also leaders need to answer.

And this is, I think, one of the calls you have in the book is to, to those leaders.

But it seems like there's that in the beginning question,

we'll call it like creation.

then there's in the end questions, which is, know, death and what's happening,

eschatology and things like that.

Those seem like Two of the big thing, big themes that are causing questions.

And then there's some sub ones that we'll talk about in a little

while, like politics and, uh, you know, things that are going on with

systems in the world and all that.

Would that, would that be accurate?

And I, and I think y'all address some of those when I was reading through the book.

You know, uh, Tim, we've listened to a lot of these stories and we haven't

really, um, done any demographic of what, what, what causes people to go through

into a crisis and start deconstructing.

So, I, I tend, uh, I don't know that those are the two most important,

but those are two important ones and we're, we're happy to talk about those.

Creation science, I mean, I taught undergrads.

for 17 years, and I taught Introduction to the Bible, and when you do

Introduction to the Bible, you do Genesis 1, and when you have science

students in the room, they're listening.

They want to know what you think, and I've had plenty of students who over the

years told me they grew up with a certain kind of creation science, and they have

studied enough biology and the history of Let's say the genome and genetic DNA,

et cetera, that they're not so persuaded of this young earth creationism stuff.

But the problem is that it gets tied to a group that believes this.

It gets tied to inerrancy, and then it becomes authoritative, and

then all of a sudden, if you don't believe that, they, you're rejected.

And you go through a crisis, you know, what's wrong with me?

a part of this group anymore.

So creation science is one of the major issues and it doesn't usually stand alone.

Um,

in my lifetime, I've seen people be able to evangelize successfully

on the basis of the question.

I think it was James Kennedy's question.

if you had to meet God tonight and died, uh, what would be your reason

for God admitting you to heaven?

That's the ultimate eschatological question.

is what happens when you die, and will you go to heaven?

I, I saw in the early 2000s that this question just disappeared

from a massive segment of American, uh, churches and Christians.

They weren't asking that question anymore.

So that ultimate eschatological question died out.

I don't believe we should end that question, because if, if eternity is

real, I think we ought to be ready for it.

But at the same time, those, those are two questions a lot of deconstructors

are deeply bothered by the fact that of some Calvinists who think there

are very, very few people who will be saved in all of Iran and all of Iraq

and all of Russia and all of China.

And all of a sudden you start thinking, you mean the whole world

is going to hell except just a few.

Presbyterians in the United States and in Denmark and, um, the Netherlands.

And you think, you know, there's something wrong here that we need to rethink.

And, uh, so that, that is, that is a major issue.

And we usually see it in a version where people start talking about hell.

That they're really bothered by how Christians, uh,

frame the doctrine of hell.

So those are two very significant issues that what we have seen is

it precipitates a crisis of people thinking, do I believe this?

And if I don't believe this, what's going to happen to me?

with the group of Christians that I worship with.

What's going to happen in my own family?

What's going to happen to my leadership at church?

As a pastor, am I going to lose my job?

Am I going to lose my income?

Where are we going to live and what am I going to do?

Those are questions that are immediately precipitated when people begin to

deconstruct and there, we want a world in which people can ask those questions.

Yeah, and unfortunately, a lot of our structures don't allow that,

uh, that kind of opens the door.

I, I just want to ask a question or two related to, the, uh, I think you

called them dissident disciples in your book revelation for the rest of us.

and, and the reason is kind of pertinent for me, Scott, is.

I'm approaching 40 years as a follower of Christ.

as if I've been growing and learning and all the whole time.

And unfortunately now at 60, I feel like I know less than I knew.

And a good thing.

I'm not, you know, embarrassed to say that there's, more there,

but I realized that I had a bait.

in dispensationalist mindset.

And the thing I liked about that book was that spent a good bit of time sort

of busting up that, um, we'll call it the dogma of dispensationalism.

I don't know if that's a good term or not, but we'll, we'll,

Fair enough.

Fair enough.

Yeah.

And just, just a question or two about that.

How, Why is that, just that one mindset, why is it dangerous, and

how does it relate to your new book, Invisible Jesus, and people

going through some deconstruction?

If at all, if I'm trying to match something up here, you

can say, don't worry about it.

Um,

why is it dangerous?

Okay.

A lot of people are dispensationalists.

And I would say the instinct of American evangelicals of a non reformed bent.

Okay.

The reformed people tend to be post millennial or at least amillennial.

But the, the other part, uh, are more or less dispensational.

And there is a broad range of people who have dispensational instincts.

Some of whom are really detailed.

Way too detailed, and they know that Putin's the Antichrist, those sort.

And there's others who are just sort of Dispensational, that's

what their instincts are, but they don't think about it very much.

Um, I think the biggest problem that dispensationalism handed on

to the American church, and Tim, I don't want to deny This, it's huge.

The impact is everywhere.

Most people in most evangelical churches have dispensational instincts.

Is that we have no, because of dispensationalism, we have no

theopolitical discipleship in the church.

Now what I mean by that is, our discipleship does not, has not taught us,

How to think politically in a theological manner to understand leadership in the

world Political powers how government works how it relates to the church There's

just so little of this and it's almost like whatever America does is good Because

we're the best nation in the world and therefore our support of Israel and our

Paying for bombs to beat the daylights out of Gaza, uh, our support of Ukraine

and maybe that's going to end now.

Uh, that's okay.

There's just no reflection.

Christians just go, well, that's the government, that's their job.

And we support the government.

I, I think that the book of Revelation was, was written for

an entirely different purpose.

It taught people, the believers of the seven churches in Western Asia Minor,

how to think politically about Rome.

And we get a beautiful template.

Now, we're not going to apply everything in the vision of, especially Revelation

17, 18, a little bit of 19, on how, um, the apocalypse describes Rome.

And it's, it is powerful critique, prophetic, and it teaches believers.

And there aren't very many of them.

But John somehow thinks there's going to be.

An innumerable number of believers in the final kingdom of God, which is LOL

moment for those little house churches in Ephesus and Pergamum, is that he's,

he's teaching them how to look at Rome in a completely different way and to follow

Jesus as the Lord, because someday, The kingdom of God is going to be on earth.

And that's what we look forward to.

So, uh, now deconstruction I have found this isn't, you know, I can't gather

together all the deconstructors and hand them revelation for the rest of

us that I wrote with Cody magic and say, now, what do you think Tommy, uh,

preachers on this, he has preached for about a year on revelation and he's

got good, really good sermons and he knows that these deconstructors love.

This vision of the book of Revelation because it is it gives them a

hermeneutic prophetic resistance to political powers that run the world

astray and that create injustices.

So I really believe that, uh, that revelation for the, you

know, you've, you're the first person who's asked this question.

I think a revelation for the rest of us is a recipe for the soul.

For the deconstructor.

I think they liked that book.

I think so, too, and I hate to put timestamps on these, but you

and I are recording this three days, four days after the U.

S.

elections in November.

I'm not sure when exactly it will release, but and it kind of framed my mind when

I was reading through Deconstruction, and what I realized is that I believe

with reading those two books, Election conversation and wherever side people

on kind of is irrelevant to me.

It's, it's, I realize that I'm actually deconstructing in my mind, many things

that are in what I'll call our Babylonian system, I, I'm almost deconstructing

government, What I think about work, what I think about money, definitely

church, as we talked about earlier, some people even, you know, family.

I mean, to me, it seems like there's just a lot of deconstructing going on and,

you know, there's no data on that, but it seems like that's kind of what's and the

political environment is no different.

Would that be, I don't know, accurate or

I, I totally agree with you and I know Tommy would agree with you.

Yes, there is.

There is deconstruction of all these capitalism work, how work is constructed.

Family life is constructed.

How housing is developed.

Wage, economic, uh, immigration, all these things are up for grabs.

The deconstructors are saying if Jesus and the kingdom of God, is the

center of the vision of God for this world, then we ought to be pursuing

those things rather than how to, uh, um, let's say aggrandize the power

of the United States or aggrandize the power of our political party or

aggrandize the power of our church versus another church in the neighborhood.

That all, they see that and they think this is just completely

backward and upside down and wrong.

And so, yeah, they see in the book of Revelation.

all the themes that could be connected to invisible Jesus.

Oh,

I love the subtitle of Invisible Jesus, a book about leaving the

church and looking for Christ.

this is kind of like maybe a little bit of a softball to you.

Maybe not.

I don't know.

Is it possible that we're getting to the place where many of us, many people,

many, I don't know, individuals are realizing really is only one place to go

and it's towards Jesus?

No,

I thought you meant one church.

Okay.

Well, which one you talking about here?

one

Yeah.

No.

One

Yes.

I,

one political party.

Which party is it, Scott?

Tell us.

No, I'm just kidding.

yeah.

Um, I think, um, yes, every church, every person who goes to a church

should walk away saying, when I was there today, I saw Jesus.

They should not walk away saying that's a great pastor.

Or, that's a beautiful piece of music.

Those things are all fine to say, but if they don't, if they come away

and they did not encounter Jesus, they've, the church has failed.

So yeah, there's one place, one person to go to, it's Jesus.

And those who gather to Jesus want to be in fellowship with one another.

That's where church theology starts, in being around Jesus, listening to him.

Oh yeah.

the, um, the message of this book, invisible Jesus is to

me more Jesus get with Jesus.

is the So, uh, anyway, I, I recommend the book.

I think it's a great book.

It got me thinking.

There were times that I recognized some of my, uh, dogmas and I'm okay to admit

that, uh, I, I highly recommend it.

Uh, one quick question before we wrap up here, Scott, I know you have

to jump off, but written 90 books.

Good gracious, that's a lot of books.

Any, any of it that would need to be changed or adjusted.

I'm sitting here thinking over the course of 40 years, like, uh,

you know, we were all on a journey, any, any of your journey caused you

to go back and revisit something.

And, uh, we don't have to go deep on this, but just curious.

Yeah,

You know, every book I'm, I totally live with the reality that when I

write a book, it's connected to the world in which I live at that time.

And so, for instance, I was looking at my little, uh, NIV application

commentary on Galatians recently, and I liked my exposition.

And then I looked at the, they call it application at that time.

I went, Oh, I wouldn't talk about that today.

So yes, um, but that's, that's the nature of writing.

We learn and we grow and we develop and things that we said 30 years ago

are not things that we would say today.

I don't think, I think my exegesis of Galatians is, for me, it's rock solid.

I still pretty much adhere to all of that.

But, um, the world to which I would speak that is a different

world than I did at that time.

So yes, and I'll tell you one book, uh, that I loved writing.

It's called Embracing Grace.

Um, that book was totally reframed and, and dismantled by a book called King Jesus

Gospel, and that was, I was exploring how best to talk about the gospel.

And I wrote Embracing Grace, uh, and I liked the idea of grace,

uh, but it wasn't Jesus centered enough in King Jesus Gospel.

Did that so I never recommend people to read embracing grace

final question.

I know you need to jump.

We're seek go create Scott.

Those three words.

You probably guess where the origins of some of those are.

I'm going to allow you to choose one of those is just my final question.

Which do you choose?

It just resonates currently with you more than the other seek go or create and why?

Well, that's a good question Create I believe that God in Christ is Recreating

us to a new life and I want to participate I want to be involved in the work of

God in my own life I want I want God to do that and I want to participate

with others in the recreation of gospel grace life in our world today, and God

is the actor who can make this happen.

So I think that's, I think that answers your question.

it does.

I'm sure the books are available where everybody can get books, correct?

Uh,

Yeah.

Yeah.

right here.

got it on my iPad.

Not my iPad, my Kindle.

there's a hard copy.

Man, that looks good.

I like that black cover.

That looks nice there.

It's so clever, because the letters, Invisible Jesus, are

black as well, but they're risen slightly above, so it's cool.

there's a fading of the uh, invisible there.

That's cool.

Yeah, they're fading in the color version too, so, this is a good cover.

Yeah, I really like it.

really cool.

That one would jump out.

Well, anyway, thank you, Scott.

And thank you, and in spite of the fact that you're a part of the

Rambling Wreck of Georgia Tech.

what, what is wrong with that?

That's a, that's a plus right there, isn't it?

My parents lived in Atlanta, but they, uh, I don't think they were

big fans of Georgia Tech at the time.

people?

Hopefully not.

Uh, no, no, they're from Illinois, but, uh,

Thank you so much, Scott.

I appreciate it.

Make sure you get a copy of the book Invisible Jesus.

I also think Revelation for the Rest of Us is an excellent book to add to it.

It will get you thinking.

There's no doubt about it.

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