In this episode, we talk to Mr. Aaron West about his experiences as a college student. Mr. West shares his jagged pathway from high school to community college to a four-year university. We also discuss ways in which students can prepare for success in college by being involved in campus activities, developing relationships with peers and mentors, and seeking help from professors - starting with office hours.

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

students, college, peer mentor, governor, state, university, talk, experience, professors, state university, transfer, high school, pretty, work, class, started, office hours

SPEAKERS

Amy Vujaklija, Aaron West, Joi Patterson

I was becoming integrated with the community and seeing not only where I fit but where I can contribute and where I can where I can shine.

This episode was originally released under the podcast titled teaching and learning theory versus practice. This rebooted episode has been migrated to teaching and leading with Dr. Amy and Dr. Joy. I am Dr. Amy Vujaklija, Director of educator preparation. And

I am Dr. Joi Patterson, Chief Diversity Officer. Our podcast addresses issues through the lens of diversity, equity and inclusion, along with solutions for us to grow as educators.

So join us on our journey to become better teachers and leaders. So let's get into it. Good morning, Dr. Joy. Good

morning. Dr. Amy, how are you this morning?

We have a great opportunity to talk to a student today actually,

he's one of my favorites. Well,

Aaron West is the student we're talking to today. He received his Associate in Science degree from Prairie State Community College before transferring to Governor State University for a Bachelor of Science degree and he received that degree in May of 2020. What a challenging year to be finishing a degree and to be a senior in college. Aaron's story is one of persistence, Self Realization and goal setting. These are the skills he's used to transform himself into a successful and fulfilled stem student and mentor. He enjoys helping the next generation of students overcome the hurdles they will face during college. And he is currently in GSU's Master of Science and Ben environmental biology program on his way to pursue PhD programs in biological sciences. So let's welcome Aaron West.

Hi, Aaron.

Hey, Dr. Patterson.

Morning.

Good morning.

So Hi, Aaron, we invited you as a guest, not just because we think that you are superstar, which we do. And you know, I think that you are a superstar, and you are an African American STEM graduate. So we'd love it. Well, we think that your journey through college is a success story. And it's not just because you you didn't finish in two years, you didn't finish your degree in two years, or in three years. But because you finished and you're still going at it. So like many college students, there's obstacles, things don't always go as planned. I know it didn't go as planned for me when I was in college. So before we talk to you about your actual college experience. Can you tell us about your expectations for college, when you were a high school student when you were a senior in high school?

Yeah. So when I was a senior in high school, thinking about what college is to go to three things, three big expectations that popped in my mind were to enroll at a big four year university, some of the big names such as Purdue or the University of Illinois, or even the University of Chicago, having a dorm room with a roommate, I was pretty excited for that, to have my own space, and then to also live with somebody else. And then most importantly, in my eyes back then was to finally move out of my parents house. Nothing, nothing to do with academic courses or or anything of that nature. But all social is what I expected. I expected that big four year university experience.

Well, based on what your expectations were, and let's talk about your experience as a freshman. What do you did you learn about being in college that you did not know when you were in high school?

Let me see. So some things that I was shocked about with going into college as a freshman were the prerequisite courses that I had to take. So I had taken up until trigonometry in high school but then once I entered college, I pre state I had to take once that pre algebra, again, I guess because I didn't test out of pre algebra. So having to retake a math class that I had already taken in high school was a pretty big shocker. And then the financial aid process was sudden getting used to filling out the FAFSA, getting my parents information, waiting for this Gotta get back with me. And then what do I have to pay back? And what do I not have to pay back essentially?

So, Amy, I don't know if you remember, when you were a freshman in college? I certainly do. And what I knew about college as a high school student was that I had to go to college, I went to a college prep high school, so I knew that college was the next step. That's about all I knew about going to college. And when you talk about completing the FAFSA, things like that, my parents didn't know what those things were. And we didn't talk about how to finance college, and we'll talk about that some more later. So as a result of what I didn't know, I kind of muddled through it. So briefly, walk us through your journey of starting college and graduating, so tell us the story.

So my pathway from starting college to graduating was pretty long. It took me a year started in 2012. And I graduated 2020. In between there, especially at the beginning, I was working customer service jobs off campus, it was expected for me to go to college to Dr. Patterson, it was the next step. And so a part of that I wanted to work jobs to get some spending money. But those expectations that I talked about earlier, such as the big four year university experience, I didn't quite get so when leaving high school I had these high expectations for for my college experience, but I GPA didn't transfer over to those to those big college to those big university environments. I had a pretty low GPA when I left high school. I was not very active in extracurriculars. And so the when it was time to apply for schools, I applied to only three, I applied to the University of Illinois, Purdue University in West Lafayette and DePaul University, with DePaul University being my first choice because it was in the city of Chicago, it was it seemed lively, it seemed like a big school, it seemed prestigious. And unfortunately, I didn't get into the Paul, I remember touring the campus of DePaul, and even the University of Chicago thinking, wow, I would love to go here. But like I said, My Grades really didn't transfer over to well, so I didn't get into DePaul, I got waitlisted for the University of Purdue, and the University of Illinois didn't accept me at all. So with those options, my only option was to either wait for Purdue University or started my community college was excellent. Because if I had stopped my education, then I don't know if I would have even gone to college. I don't know if I even would have been happy with with where I would have been if I didn't go to college. But I started to pretty state, sort of against my will. It wasn't the four year university that I that I wanted to go to. It was a two year university, actually. So it wasn't that college experience that I wanted, it wasn't away from home, I wouldn't have my own my own space away from my parents. But it was feasible because it was affordable. And it was my only option. So while I was there, I set a goal that okay, I do want to go to a four year university. And I don't want to be here. So let me just do two years because it's a two year college. So let me do two years and then transfer to somewhere else. So after those two years at Prairie State College, I transferred to Northern Michigan University for one year. There I studied environmental science. And it was a great experience. I finally got active in the college community I joined extracurricular extracurricular activities, such as the environmental science organization and became president of that. I joined a few other clubs, I joined too many clubs, really, you know, I was inexperienced with joining extracurriculars, and couldn't balance between the fun and the schoolwork. So I had to drop some extracurriculars that are that I was a part of, but I got to join a I believe, a marine biology club. And then one clubs that I definitely stayed in was Black Student Union at Northern Michigan University, which was great. The students at Northern Michigan, especially the Black Student Union were built differently. They were much stronger than the friend group that I was used to back in high school they were they challenged you to be more active and, and take about being black at a predominantly white institution. And so you know, being an interview, it was a biology students dream because we're right up there in Lake Superior, surrounded by wilderness. My classes were great. I took an environmental policy and regulations class. It was I mean, it was just a great experience I had my dorm room, which, which comes with a very interesting story of an absent roommate, who was paying for the for the room, but he was never there. That's a bonus. Definitely a bonus. So I had a whole space to myself and I met a lot of incredible people. But towards the end of that first year in northern Michigan, I was my found independent for the first time on my FASFA, because I would have gotten more money. And so finally independent, my parents kind of stepped back and kind of wanted me to handle it on my own. And I couldn't, I didn't know what to do. I don't know, I just kind of felt overwhelmed. Of course, we have to file a FAFSA every year. And I kind of felt overwhelmed and scared that I wouldn't have enough money that I would struggle financially. And so that took a toll on me and caused me to be very stressful, and not even have a positive outlook about coming back. And so I don't even know what happened. But regardless, it was finances that made me transfer back to Prairie State College after that year in northern Michigan. And transferring to Prairie State only have one more course to finish for my lower level courses, which was organic chemistry. And I finished that graduated with my associates and pre state and 2017 with an Associates of Science and Biology. And then I went on to transfer to Governor State University to finish this May with a Bachelors of Science and bio.

Okay, so I'm gonna stop you there, because we have so specific questions to ask you about Governor State University and your experience there. But I think your story just resonates with so many people, it took me six years to finish college too. And I started early, I started at 17. But I got married at 19, I moved to another state, I got my associate's degree from a community college just like you, and like you, when you transfer, you lose some credits, right? So and that's pretty deflating that now you're adding some time and some money on to your extension of going to college. And I would say also like you as an independent now, because I was married, that gave opportunities for grants and financial aid that would not have been there while I was under my parents. So what is the greatest challenge in this journey? And did you ever think that you would not finish college?

Let me see the greatest challenge, there are a few, really, actually, internally is the biggest challenge that I that I had to overcome. And that I faced was just challenges with, with who I was as a student, the challenges of having self doubt, of not knowing what to do not knowing who to talk to, not feeling confident enough to reach out to your professors or even reach out to peers in the classroom. Challenges of self confidence were set was something that I had to overcome, especially during that time, where I had to transfer away from Northern Michigan University. I was there. It was the experience that I wanted. And it was It wasn't bad. It was the tuition was pretty low. It was about $7,000 a semester, which when compared to DePaul, and the University of Illinois is half of more than half of the pulsed tuition for sure. And just having to deal with that and having to think that, okay, well, I'm not going to be successful. I don't even know what I want to do. And I don't think that I can can get the experiences that I that I would have gotten at Northern Michigan University, I pretty state. It's those experiences that will help me find a career that will help me know if what I want to do is truly what I want to do. So definitely having to bounce back and keep motivated to continue. It's tough, because you want to be successful, you want to be the best, but sometimes you don't feel that way. And dropping out of college was never an option for me though. As you said College is the next step after high school and I want I love school and then to if I was not in school, I would be I don't know where I would be. But at the time I was working at Starbucks Starbucks coffee as a barista and I don't know just my outlook on college or part time full time work. Customer Service. I'm I'm a kind patient person. But as I said, I want to be the best and I don't think I want to be the best working underneath somebody for a company.

That's a valid point and it had to have been very difficult very challenging to leave either place that you had found a home, you had found a group, you had found a home, you had found the resources. As far as the kinds of classes you could take in that area. You said it's close to woods and the lake of course. And then moving back, you've got to refocus. You had to shift your lens a little bit. So how did you learn about Governors State University? And why did you decide to attend

I learned about Governors State University, through a friend through a church friend, and she was also a friend who, not a friend at the time, but we also went to the same high school together. So from talking to her, she said she went to Governor State University. And it didn't really register register to me, You know what university she was talking about. But then I saw, I think I saw ads out in the public, but it was my friend who said you should check out Governor State University. I had not heard of Governor State University. I'm surprised that Governor state university exists in University Park. My only knowledge of University Park was that it was the last stop on the metro. I knew nothing about University Park. And I was super surprised that there was a whole university there. And why I chose Governors State is because one it was close to home. Well, one I want to say they do have an environmental biology program, which is ultimately why I transferred to Governor state. But to be to be fully honest, I was encountering the same problem that I encountered at the end of high school. At the end of my graduation from Prairie State College community college. I seemed How can I phrase this? I was, I don't think I was unprepared for the next step. But then again, I probably was unprepared for the next step. Because once again, I'm in the same spot of I know, I want to go to a four year university. Right? I want that experience. I want those resources. But where do I go? And for some reason I didn't think of transferring back to Northern Michigan, because I had this problem with finances. Right? That was a mental barrier for some reason. But I knew I wanted the four year experience, but I did not know where to go. So after Prairie State Community College, I took one semester off to kind of say, Okay, let me do my research. Let me see what colleges I should apply to. Let me see where I could fit. And I did that I took a semester off. And at the end of that semester, I don't I didn't apply to it. I didn't apply anywhere, sadly to say I didn't apply to any school. And so when talking to my friend, she says, Oh, there's this Governors State University. You should look into it. They have a biology program. I did. They had an environmental biology program. And I think I talked to a professor at Prairie State College, who didn't want me to go to Governor state because it was so small, but me being stubborn. I said, well, since it's small, since it's accepting undergraduate students for the first time in its history, I might as well go and contribute to its history might as well go in contribute to that upbringing of undergraduate life at Governors State. So I enrolled that Governors State. And ever since it's been a good experience, I've had a lot of good experiences and good opportunities here at Governors State.

I graduated from Sam Houston State University in Texas, which is a very large university. And when I was looking for my graduate degree I came upon Governor State University to and I was surprised and like you, I got a graduate degree in environmental biology. See, we're like soulmates and all these shared experiences a generation apart. And so one of the things that you say it kind of resonates with me because we talk about this and recruitment and marketing, just off topic a little bit is that you have to hear something like three times in order for it to stick. So someone told you about it. And because someone told you about it now, you see this billboard. Oh, that's Governor state and you get something in the mail. Oh, that's Governor state. So you need those three touches for it to really stick. So my question is about your experience. So you came from this experience where of a large university that was beautiful, you had water you had woods and actually, to your surprise, Governor State University had water and woods too. Not as big. But what has been your experience? Now that you're back at a smaller university and you're close to home?

My experience at Governors State as an Undergraduate was, I don't know if I'm gonna gonna receive any pushback from this, but it was kind of easy. Using my experiences from Prairie State Community College, from Northern Michigan University, from I had also recently done an internship before enrolling at Governor State University, I kind of felt pretty strong going to Governor State University. I knew I so I came into Governor state university knowing that I wanted to join clubs knowing that I wanted to become integrated on campus. So I came with those goals of wanting to be that that type of student who was everywhere who was busy doing important things, but also who was on the good side with his teachers. So my experience Governor state going in with that mindset, that first semester, I was working customer service again at Menards. Right, a new place. And after that first semester, now having a car having to transport myself between Governors State University home and work, I knew that my next step to achieve the goals that I came in with was to get an on campus job. And by the grace of God, I networked with a friend of mine, who was who also previously transferred into Governor state from new Connecticut, who I also went to school with high school with. And he connected me with somebody in our student success conference, who was a who was a administrative student worker. And she was like, well, you should apply for this, you should apply for this, we have this deadline coming up. And I was like, Alright, cool. So I applied for, I think the first position I applied for was the orientation leader position in New Student Programs, and had to sit through a group interview, individual interview, and eventually I got the job. And so over the summer, I quit Menards and started working on campus at the University of Illinois through another connection. Also that summer, I worked as a math and science tutor during that first summer semester at Governors State. And so, finally being on campus, I don't know it was being on campus that got me to talk to a lot of different people in a lot of different departments in a lot of different offices. So I've been active within the Student Success commons, the Academic Resource Center New Student Programs, which which made me more active in using services like Career Services, which is also housed within the Student Success Commons. I became familiar with student life, I work very closely with student life, being a part of the community service Council of what was once community service Council, which is now kaleidoscope. I was the vice president of community service Council and went to Costa Rica for Alternative Spring Break in 2018, as Vice President of Community Service Council, so that was an amazing experience. What else have I done, I've also been a part of my success initiative. So it was becoming integrated with the community and seeing not only where I fit, but where I can contribute and where I can, where I can shine?

Well, one of the ways that you shine and the way you contribute is being a peer mentor. So from the mentor perspective, how would you explain that value added? And maybe as a mentee probably been in that experience as well? How do you think that you have impacted people's lives? Yeah.

So as a peer mentor, Governors State University, I started in fall of 2018, as a peer mentor, and it was a program to help to help in the classroom, new freshmen, incoming students, and then also transfer students as well. So I had the great opportunity to use both my experiences as a transfer student transferring to Governor state. And as a freshman, my experiences as a freshman at Prairie State Community College to help new incoming freshmen and transfer students to Governors State University. And that experience as a peer mentor was something I was most excited for at Governor State University because I've had so before I began tutoring, and even while I was tutoring, I knew that I liked the aspect of teaching but helping students that don't understand and something back then it was biology courses, chemistry courses that students were having a hard time with. And when they got it, I don't know, it was just, it was just fun to teach them. It was fun to know the answer and guide them towards the answer, because I knew that they had it within them that I knew that they could do the work. And so I kind of thought that being a peer mentor would be something on the same spectrum of you guys have it in you. And I know you can do it. So let me guide you, because everybody has their own story. Everybody has their own motivations. Let me guide you to your goals. Let me guide you to what works best for you. And so being a peer mentor was was excellent. I was Dr. Patterson's peer mentor. So every peer mentor was paired with a faculty member, Dr. Patterson was mine. And she pushed me in the classroom. For the students, the freshman students had to take a freshman seminar. So I'll cover topics such as accepting responsibility, decision making and choices, and how those choices can affect your future. And they read the other was more a book, the discussion that we read in that class as well. And she pushed me to really think about my story organically and bear it all for my students to learn from my experiences. And yeah, yes, she pushed me in the classroom to really do things that I didn't think were in my job description, but were still useful to do. Yeah, that was so useful to do, such as just share my story and not be afraid to share my my mistakes in the past and really put myself out there on the line.

And we are talking to Mr. Aaron West. He is a graduate student at Governors State University. And we're talking about kind of that Jagged Edge journey through his college experience that many of us go through. And sometimes we see these things as failure. But this is actually a success story. And yes, Aaron is right, I encouraged him to tell the story, because I see it as a success story. And it resonates with so many students leaving high school, and not really understanding the expectations of college and being able to make that transition, or when they fall down. When they fail that course, when they run out of money. What do you do? How do you pick up? How do you keep going? How do you finish this journey? And I think part of that is helping them through this mentorship. And as Aaron was saying, he was a peer mentor, the best peer mentor ever. So based on your experience as a mentor, how would you kind of describe the effectiveness? Are there things that you feel that could be enhanced in the peer mentorship? Because I know now you're in a position of making change. So describe the effectiveness, what would you change to make it even better?

So the Peer Mentor Program, I wouldn't say it was the best peer mentor?

Oh, yeah.

Well, we have brought our own our own personalities to it, we all brought our own.

Well, let's say you were a great peer peer, mentor, and you're still a great peer mentor. Yeah, yeah,

I was a great peer mentor. The program was good. When I was going through it, I did have my reservations about it. Because I was worried that and I don't want to step on any toes when I say this, but I was worried that some students, so it was one of them was a lot to kind of coordinate, a part of being a peer mentor and the Peer Mentor Program, we not only had to be in class and contribute to class, in a meaningful way for our students, but we also had to do things outside of class. So it took away quite a bit of time. And, of course, the students, we have high expectations for ourselves, right? So we want to do everything perfectly. You want to do everything big. And sometimes it's not even about doing it big and perfectly. It's just about doing it. And we did it. We definitely did it. We planned programs such as study hours, such as karaoke nights, and things of that nature, but our expectations for ourselves were pretty big. And then also, I think, I think it was effective to have a group of peer mentors for the freshman class. The peer mentor group groups that I worked with. Were very diverse. So you have me a biology student who has experienced doing research who is pretty motivated and I would say professional I like to keep while I'm at school, you have to be professional because you're around professionals in the field. And that just helps communicate Asian,

and he dressed like a professional.

On good days, on good days, every state towards the end of my associate's degree, I would come up to come into class with ties on with button up shirts and ties. It didn't, I didn't transfer that over to Governors State because I was a new student, and pretty scared to do it. But yeah, I like to keep it professional as possible. So I was very, I stressed academics for my students. And then all permanent tours were accessible to students, right, or they they're supposed to be accessible to students. And we were accessible to students as best as we could be. And we all had our own different personalities, too. So I think that was very effective, because if I couldn't reach a student, I could definitely say that there was a peer mentor who could. And then I think to help us in in the classroom, however, deliver material, I think more training in in teaching, and more training in the delivery of teaching could have went a long way for some of the peer mentors. Some of what I heard was that, you know, some peer mentors were very Laissez Faire in their in their leadership when they were in the classroom. Whereas me, I would like to think that I stepped up and kind of not demanded, I don't know if demanded is the right word, but demanded that my students pay attention. I even could say that some peer mentors didn't even care if their students paid attention and classroom, the motivation for some peer mentors were not there. So I think something

Yes, you can command.

More command in the classroom should be expected from all peer mentors.

And, you know, I appreciate you saying that. Training is an important part of that, as faculty members, we have training, we have our professional development, we are encouraged to seek ways to grow in our profession. And you mentioned your work with Dr. Patterson, and how she pushed you how important have your relationships with faculty been throughout your college career,

those have been most important in my college career. Most important, because like I said, I like to keep it professional. And so being in that kind of relationship with a faculty member, you learn some tricks of the trade and communication, when to communicate, how to communicate, how to address your professors how to address those mentors that you have, they have been very important. So the first mentor that I had, was at the end of my education at Prairie State Community College before then, I would not visit office hours. So during that, during that transition period, from high school to college out, I call myself a very average student, because all I did was go to school, go to class, go home, do homework, go to work. And then it will just be clockwork, I wouldn't communicate with classmates, or teachers or professors. And so, towards the end of my associate's degree, I started to visit my organic chemistry professors office hours, and it simply just started out with wanting to get a good grade in her class, because our Kenyan Organic chemistry is not the easiest class amongst STEM students. For some reason, for me, it was pretty easy. But for most STEM students, it's not. And I think, really, what really helped me think of it as easy was going to professor's office hours, and then from going into the professor's office hours, sometimes the conversations would, would skew to Okay, well, what do you want to do? What do you think about science, and things of that nature. And then, from that relationship with my Organic Chemistry, Organic chemistry professor, she introduced me to a Internship Program at the University of Illinois, specifically for community college students. And as I said earlier, motivation when you're in college is most important. Like if you don't know where you're gonna go, you don't like you cannot expand upon opportunities that may come across come across your way. It's just you don't have that push that motivation to continue forward. Because is what I'm doing on a pay off. And so she connected me to an internship at NSF on an internship for community college students. At that time, I didn't even know that, that students could do research. So that opened up my eyes to what I could be doing and what I wasn't doing. And so with our help I applied to the internship. I got in I did two weeks of Research at the University of Illinois studying soybean cyst nematode soybean system until it's what our parents cites soybean plant, trying to control their numbers. So it was a, it was an observational study, and I presented my research at a Student Research Symposium with about, I would say, well over 100 100 research students who, who was at the University of Illinois for that summer, I got to meet different people from Illinois from the East Coast, I got to see the research that they did, which some of them were even more impressive than mine. And from that, I think that's what also called going to Governors State University because I knew that I don't know just that, with that experience, I could really steamroll into something else on that same caliber but, but even better, I could use that experience to be even better in the future. I've also had another peer mentor by the name of Sean Smith. He helped me achieve students success, but he was more of a of a confidant. So he was a professional confidant, where I can come to him with a challenge where I could come to him with what some obstacles I was facing, and really get some some good advice and feedback. Like I said earlier, it takes us three times to hear things. I've definitely had those experience where I definitely came to his office with the idea of okay, I want help, right, I need help. I don't know everything. So where can I go? Where I am welcome one. Where can I go work? Who can I go to with an open door? When I have an issue with a class with financial aid, with work with how to address the situation? And he was that person? And mentors, faculty mentors are huge. I would say, Well,

it sounds like at the very basic level, you started with Office Hours. You started with just visiting a professor during office hours, I do have a question about Office Hours is that a an off putting term? I've read that saying maybe student hours or chat times are calling it something different, we'll give it a better feel, make it feel more welcome. As long as I guess we are communicating that they are for the students and not for us, perhaps that's the communication we need to meet making.

You asked me, is it an off putting term?

Yes.

No, it's not off putting to me anyway, I think. I don't know. It kind of flies by over the head. Because we think office hours were like, okay, just okay. I think if maybe if you reiterate it if you if you need it, to reiterate it, having that open door policy for students to always walk in when they need assistance, or help is a better fitting kind of explanation that should follow behind the word office hours.

I guarantee you that Dr. Vujaklija's going to put on her syllabi all door hours. So thank you.

Love what you're saying about starting with just that visit. But how important is it to have both a faculty mentor and a peer mentor? That confident you're talking about? Yeah, that sounds huge. So if juniors and seniors in high school, are listening to this podcast right now and they're contemplating going to college, what advice would you would you give them

juniors and seniors come into college, of course, seek help when you need it. Juniors and seniors. Students in general are, are on many different paths. Many different students are motivated by many different means. And Alex are all different. But I guess some general advice that I could give is to, yes, go to office hours. But also I do want to tell the students that it's not expected of you to know everything. It's not expected of you to be perfect. You're coming as a student. So yes, learn and be respectful of, of your superiors, and always know that they're there to help. Like, yeah, there may be some bad apples in the basket. But most professors, one of the one of the biggest things that I heard when I was a student is that most professors want to help you. And that's just, I mean, that's the profession they're in they're there to teach you. So go to your professors, challenge them with with new information, right? Because as a professor, professors have to stay updated on on new information in the field. So challenge them on new information, but then also go to them for help with old information that you may have, maybe struggling to understand.

So I think that you've given some great information. To me you're consider a big fish in a little pond. And you've helped so many other people have, how can they find them themselves? How can they navigate college? How can they stand out in college? And I think what really resonates with me is that connection with faculty, and faculty, administrators, other staff at the university, because as much as you gained from that relationship, Aaron, we gain a lot to we want to have another conversation with you about your research experience. We graduated from college 2030 years ago. So we want to learn from you and it helps us to become better faculty, better administrators. And if you keep going to that faculty's office, enough, essentially, we're doing your work for you, because we get all excited about the topic. And so much learning goes on through that process. So we really appreciate you sharing this. And I know when you started telling this story, it was almost like an embarrassment. But please know this is a success story. And we just love you for sharing it. And I think that so many high school students and freshmen and sophomores in college, are also going through this will actually benefit from the some really thank you from the bottom of my heart for sharing your story.

Thank you for listening to teaching and leading with Dr. Amy and Dr. Joi. Visit our website at govst.edu/teaching and leading podcast to see the show notes from this episode.

We appreciate Governor State University's work behind the things to make publishing possible. Stay tuned for more episodes with Dr. Amy and Dr. Joi