It makes sense that being optimistic will have a positive impact on our happiness. But actually, it doesn't come naturally to everyone, so how can we be more optimistic?

Kitty and Klaudia explore the topics Questions, Resilience, Social Media and Time in relation to optimism and how these things impact their happiness.

Seasons 1 & 2 of The Happiness Challenge were jointly hosted by Klaudia and Kitty under the podcast name &Happiness. Enjoy this blast from the past!

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Claudia.

Oh, Kitty.

It has been a month already.

I know. Time flies. I missed you so much.

I missed you too.

I think it's our fifth burst of happiness and we are speaking about optimism.

So in this episode we'll be diving into what does it mean to be optimistic and how Questions, resilience, managing your time on social media and overall managing your time can help us to be more optimistic.

So if you haven't heard those episodes before, go back, check in, refresh your memory on what those episodes that Claudia's just mentioned were and then join us back.

Kitty, let's dive straight into it. What does it mean to be optimistic?

Okay, so as always, I've been pondering these thoughts all month and have been thinking about what optimistic optimism is. And you know what? This is not something I would have ever said before, but I think it's the, what's the opposite of retrospective?

It's the like pre gratitude, it's like a version of gratitudes that happens before.

Like if gratitude happens after the event, I'm grateful for xyz, then optimism could be the opposite and be the before the thing happens that you're looking forward to something, you're feeling positive about what's to come and feeling hopeful about the future and it's looking. Yeah, that's what I think optimism is.

As always, Kitty, you're a genius. Yes, optimism is all about the believing and having the mindset that the events or experiences we're going to have will be generally positive.

However, that doesn't necessarily mean it's about wishful thinking and being always positive.

Quite interesting definition from Martin Seligman, who is a American psychologist and he actually is the father of positive psychology and he wrote the book Learned Optimism.

And actually he also says that optimism is about creating more empowering explanation of what's happening in our life and reacting to problems and challenges we may have in life with that good sense, sense of confidence and believe in our own personal ability. I like the definition, I like that.

Definition because optimism in a very one dimensional form can be quite annoying. Like blind optimism. Like, yeah, everything's going to be great. Aren't we going to be happy forever and everything's going to be fine.

And it's kind of like, okay, you've gone, this is like insane now. You're not being very realistic. But actually that description was very like measured, calm and sort of realistically optimistic, I suppose.

Lovely. We have a new term realistically optimistic. But you're right, they there is optimist bias.

So there is that tendency to overestimate the likelihood of positive outcomes and then kind of almost downplay the possibility of negative ones. And yes, in that definition of Martin Seligman is more about creating more empowering experiences, explanations of what's happening or may happen.

So you definitely much more realistic as you said. So, Kitty, I'm just thinking, are you an optimist or maybe are you are a pessimist or a realist? I don't know, where do you sit?

I would generally say I'm an optimist. And interestingly, this month has been some moments where I've seen the difference between myself and my partner Ruth in our approaches to things.

One being more pessimistic and one being more optimistic. But weirdly, the pessimistic outlook, the resulting feeling was so much more happiness. Basically there was a.

There was some DIY that needed to go on in a flat and the pessimistic approach was, oh my God, the whole wall is going to fall in. If I do this thing, everything's going to go terribly and probably the whole house is going to fall down and it's going to be a nightmare.

And I was like, no, no, it will be absolutely fine. Don't worry about it. And then the DIY took place and the walls didn't fall down.

And Ruth, who is the pessimist in this particular situation, was ecstatic with the results, whereas I was like, that's not necessarily the best job I've ever seen. But she was so pleased that the wall hadn't fallen down, that this bodge job was actually really quite. She was just elated.

But it was interesting to see the kind of the pessimistic view and the optimistic view. And actually you think of optimistic as being the more like, oh, that's the happier outcome. But actually you.

A slightly more pessimistic view could be just delighting at every turn because it's better than you had expected.

Yeah, that's true. That's quite interesting way to look at it.

Obviously roof probably had quite stress before the DIY happened, which you didn't experience as a optimist. So, you know, advantages, disadvantages here, I guess of both approaches, I must say I would say that I am a pessimist with a hint of optimism.

So what happens in my brain usually is that I do like jumping into the worst case scenario possible. So probably I'll be thinking, okay, what if that wall is going to completely go down, an entire flat is going to collapse on me.

But then I would find the comfort in knowing that if that's the worst case scenario. Probably I can deal with that. And if I can, if I can deal with the worst case scenario, then there is not much I need to worry about.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it can level you out.

Yeah, so. And I think that is really because I'm naturally a pessimist and I was.

I'm spending lots of time teaching myself to be optimistic and this is the kind of one way I almost cheat my mind of. Yeah, yeah, think about worst case scenario.

And then my new optimistic self is going to give you reasons of why you should actually not worry because all of it is manageable.

Yeah, I'm definitely like a naturally optimistic. I think I don't seem to go down the route of worst case. I just blindly press on despite the risks.

Yeah, yeah, that's quite interesting. And then obviously how much of it is.

Is healthy optimism with that hint of realism, as you said, or how much it is going towards an optimist bias of, you know, ignoring the risks or sign of threats on your way. Martin Seligman says that the difference between optimism and a pessimist, it really sits within this kind of explanatory style we have.

So how do we actually explain the cause of the events that are happening to us? So let's say that we both went for a, I don't know, job interview and we failed it.

And we both received, let's say, quite harsh feedback on our performance. If you are a pessimist, so probably myself, we would probably see the cause of the failure as permanent.

So we would say, oh my God, I will never get a job. Look at this feedback. This is a disaster. We'll probably think, great, if I cannot get the job, then everything is going to suffer because of it.

So we're looking at the event quite globally. And finally we will internalize it. So as pessimists, we probably will think, oh my God, this is definitely my skills, my behaviors.

I failed as a person.

On the flip side, if you are an optimist like yourself, Kitty, you probably will think about the causes of the failure or the negative experiences as temporary as in, well, yeah, I blew that interview. But next interviewer probably will be fantastic. You think about them as very specific rather than global.

So you will think, yeah, that really is only about my job performance or job interview. I'm actually really good at all these other things in my life. And finally you'll be probably thinking it's quite external, not internal.

So you think, yeah, that company didn't sounded right anyway. So yes, I'll Take some feedback to improve it next time. But generally I'm feeling quite fine about this.

I think that's probably quite true, actually. I think more as I've gotten older, I've got a bit more self critical, but it comes from me.

If something comes externally, if we don't get a job or, you know, I can move on past it quite quickly, I think.

Yeah, yeah, brilliant. So that's your kind of different explanations that we apply in our mind.

And then that explanation really defines whether we feel optimistic about something or we feel pessimistic about it. So that idea of is it temporary or permanent, is it specific rather than global or is it external or internal?

So think that that kind of scale we need to apply and that help us to be optimistic or pessimistic. So how do you feel as an optimist living blissfully in this universe when it comes to your happiness?

So for me, I like being optimistic and I think it's sort of. Yeah, I don't know what more to say. I think, I think it just depends on the way you live your life.

But I don't think being optimistic is for everybody. I think it can be seen as quite fake or forced because the reality of life is not always roses.

And actually a more pessimistic view does mean that you get a better outcome from what you had expected. I think it's more complex than just optimism being good for everyone.

And I think also we probably may be optimistic or pessimistic depending on the situation we are in. So Martin Seligman mentions that it is very much related to our kind of confidence and the strengths and resources that we have available.

But we can really try to change our mindset slightly to maybe experience optimism a little bit more often. Because optimism is definitely good for us when it comes to our happiness.

It does boost our productivity, persistence and creativity because we have that belief that yes, we can do this and yes, things will be okay in the future. I got really fascinated with the studies that research the link between optimism and the recovery from illness and disease.

Oh yeah, amazing.

So people who have optimistic outlook and they apply optimistic outlook to their health, they actually are much better at pain management. They have improved immune and cardiovascular functioning.

And that's because they are not putting themselves and their body through that stress of unknown or negativity or catastrophizing. And that doesn't create that negative impact of being anxious and, and really producing stress hormones in our body.

So if you are optimistic, you will have that less level of anxiety about the Future and you will be able to have better health outcomes and actually have much speedier recovery.

Ah, yes, this is ringing true. Pma, positive mental attitude.

That's all great, Kitty, but how can we be more optimistic?

Great question, Claudia. Could it be that we ask ourselves more questions?

I think we could ask ourselves more questions. So what kind of questions would you ask yourself to increase your optimism?

Well, just thinking about what you just said then, about not catastrophizing something that's not going to happen, or going into, like, quite a anxious place. Maybe we can ask questions to kind of calm ourselves or get some clarity around what's actually happening.

So we could ask what's real or ask what else could happen, what positive actions could come from it, maybe.

Yes, of course. Kitty Newman always on it. Absolutely.

So Cy Wakeman wrote a fantastic book called Torality Based Leadership, and she suggested actually question can help us to gain clarity in the face of challenges that we're facing. And she has, like, three specific questions which I personally really like.

So when I start exaggerating or catastrophizing, I like those three questions. So one is what do I know for sure? Because obviously lots of time we create our own reality in head. For instance. Oh, yeah, he said that.

Or she said that because of this. But really, what do you know for sure? What can I do right now?

So many times we may be worrying about something in the future, but what can I do right now? What are my choices? I think that's quite nice question as well, to be more grounded in the present moment. And finally, the third question.

If I could be the best, the great version of myself, what would it look like? What my behavior would it look like? How would I behave right now?

Mmm, interesting. Yeah.

That was making me think of another one that I'd been told once about with using questions where if you start to become a bit panicked, you can ask, like, what can you smell, what can you hear, what can you see? And list a few of those things. And it grounds you into, like, the moment a bit.

Not necessarily to do with the optimism, but actually trying to get away from those, like, thought processes that take you down, like a bit of a anxious train of thought. But I guess your one actually is quite practical, isn't it? And questions.

I see that being now actually quite a calming moment because you're taking a little moment to have a rest from this, whatever it is that your brain is doing.

Yeah, absolutely. So. And that can help us. If we gain clarity, we can be more optimistic, or if not optimistic at Least realistic.

So optimists can help us to boost our resilience. How would you see that in practice?

So actually, Claudia, this one got me in a bit of a loop of thinking resilience and optimism. Is it actually a bit of a trap?

Oh, I like it already. Here we go, Kitty. Tell us your thinking.

Because in the episode of resilience, we were talking about these experiences that were negative that build us up to be able to deal with those more difficult situations that come to us. Actually, you're building from these challenges.

And so I guess you can be optimistic that because I've dealt with this in the past, I can deal with it again. So I guess resilience is that because we've dealt with these issues in the past or these challenges in the past, we can be optimistic.

Or if we're struggling to be optimistic, we can look back and say, well, you dealt with that, so you'll be able to deal with this in the future. But also, I think that.

But the idea of resilience being a bit of a trap with optimism is that the pessimistic view becomes, or could become quite compelling if we're thinking about our past experiences. Like, well, this has happened to me before. This has happened.

And I think the resilience, it's like this loop for me in my brain of resilience and optimism and pessimism all working all together.

Okay.

Does that make any sense?

I think so. I think so. I'm trying to kind of see that loop now. I'm trying to imagine it.

The one thing we have to get it clear straight away is that optimism doesn't mean that we eliminating negative emotions or negative feelings. So it's not saying whatever happened to us and if it was negative, that's it.

It doesn't exist because now I'm optimistic or that negative emotions or situations won't happen in the future because now I'm optimistic. So it will be all wonderful from now on. It doesn't work like that. Exactly like that. I wish it could, but it doesn't.

Exactly.

And I think maybe because, I mean, Claudia, you say I am a genius, but I mean, maybe this was my, like, little bit of a seed of thought of this loop because I think that they all go in together with resilience in mind, because you have to have had that experience from the episode previously. We talk so much about how valuable these experiences are for our resilience the whole of this year. Lockdown.

I think when we did that episode, we were about to go into the second or Third or seventh lockdown. But we were talking about resilience because we, we've already been through it, we can do it again.

So what you're saying is like, I have to have negative experiences in my life and negative feelings because then I'm building my resilience. If I've never done anything challenging or difficult in life, I won't have a high resilience.

And because of the fact that I had negative experiences, I can maintain an optimistic outlook because I know that I can deal with problems and I can deal with stressors. Yeah, I love that. I think that's, I think that's great.

I think the one thing I would add here is that the, when you have in that loop this optimism of I know that I can deal with challenging experiences because I had all these negative experiences in the past and I dealt well with them because I have that level of resilience, is that the optimism help us to find a meaning in negative experiences. And that's exactly what you were saying in that loop.

You're trying to find meaning that all those negative experiences were worth having because now I have a high level of resilience. And what you've done is you applied optimistic outlook to explain to yourself all those negative experiences.

Whereas maybe a pessimistic person would say I had all those negative experiences because life is unfair and actually these are unnecessary. They cause me all the stress and I wish I never had all of these. And I have regrets that I had these. What about social media?

So you are a specialist here on social media.

And I sometimes feel how on earth I supposed to be optimistic when I open my feeds and my social media accounts and what I see there is drama, tragedy, burnout, all the kind of negative things that we, we see on the news. How can I remain optimistic?

Well, if you're asking me how can you be optimistic about the world if you're on social media, then definitely should go and listen to that first episode because there's a huge amount of things to touch on that stop getting the news from social, stop consuming news, full stop. I mean the world is a, is a, is a, is a challenging place.

I think it's like taking action and being positive on these channels helps our own outlook and our own approach within them. But I think there's two things, isn't there?

There's like being happy with our use on social media and being an engaged person and engaging with the things that you want to. But that's a bit different to optimism, I think. I think to be optimistic within these channels is actually being quite openly positive.

So rather than looking at how you deal with social media, which is a huge thing, just because I manage lots of social media clients with my business, it's kind of like a tool. It's a tool and the more we can use it as a tool, the more we can all be a bit more measured with the way that we work and consume on there.

But optimism is particularly interesting because I am optimistic that the landscape is changing.

So when I was thinking about this, I was thinking about the future of social media and the future of digital marketing, the future of our online behavior. And I am optimistic that we are all learning to work with it better.

And you have to be optimistic for the, for the children, for the young people, but there's. For the future. We have to be optimistic that people are doing the right things in that. But yeah, that's sort of.

That's where I'm at really, with social media and optimism. I'm optimistic that we're all learning to use these platforms better for our own sakes.

I like that.

So you're having that hope and optimism about us being those active social media users when we actually put out those positive news and emotions out there. But I like also your comment about let's be in control, as in, we cannot control what other people put out there.

We cannot control what's happening currently in the world. But let's think, okay, what am I controlling and how I can generate that optimism and change and positivity in the world via my social media use?

And I think, I love that. I love that because as you said, that creates that optimistic, hopeful attitude for the future. So the final one, Kitty, is all about time.

We have limited time. How can we spend our time better to be optimistic?

Well, that wasn't very optimistic, was it, Claudia? We have limited time.

Oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

That's not a very optimistic way of looking at time. I mean, honestly, I think we've got so much time. We have so much time. Sometimes I think about time.

If I'm at the gym and I'm doing a workout and I'm like, oh my God, this is so hard. And they'll be like a whole minute of push ups. I'll be like, oh my God, a minute of push ups.

And I'll be like, yeah, but that's making you feel like that minute is about an hour long. What a gift. That's an optimistic way of looking at time.

You are a relentless optimist. And I must just Say, I don't believe I've just been told off by Kitty Newman. I just, I just feel like I've been slapped in my head right now.

What do you mean? It's limited.

But I do think that is a good point though, because I can get to the end of the day and be like, oh my God, where did the day go? Oh, I can wish away my week. Oh, thank. Can't wait till Friday. These aren't very optimistic ways of looking at time. I don't think.

I don't think we should be wishing our lives away. I think we should be taking time.

Like a lot of the things we do to take a breath, the, you know, doing yoga, making time for yourself, the things we come back to over and over again. I think that is an optimistic way of looking at time. If you take the time to do the things that are important to you and your values.

Love it. Love it. Because as we already said, it's not about happiness.

It's not about necessarily eliminating the negative emotions and eliminating challenges that we have in life, but it's about having that balance of positive emotions and positive experiences.

So it's quite interesting, people actually looked into calculating that positivity ratio, as in how many positive emotions do we need to negative emotions we experiencing? Ooh, yeah.

Barbara Fredrickson is a leading scholar within positive psychology and she actually says that we need three positive emotions to every one negative feeling we experience. So it's a ratio of three to one. So that's quite interesting if you think about your time.

If you in a day have a one very, let's say, challenging situation, you need to kind of counteract to it with three positive experiences to then kind of go back into your balance baseline of happiness.

So does that work if you've upset someone, say you say a bad thing to somebody, do you then have to do two good things to make up for it?

No, she doesn't. I mean, I love, I love the twist. Now it's more like this.

If that person is upset with you and experiencing negative emotions, for them to kind of go back to neutral content happy state, they need to experience three other positive situations. So it could be that later on someone gives them a compliment, maybe they do a little bit of gratitude and maybe they go for a lovely walk.

They will then go back to feeling happy despite the negative feelings that they had because you upset them. If they kind of don't do that, then they will go into that negative spiral and they will go into more, more negative emotions.

And we know that Negative emotions are actually quite, they spread quite quickly. I mean, to be honest, any emotions spread quite quickly.

So it's about that if you want to come back to being happy, think about those three positive emotions you can be experiencing. Then you go back to your optimistic outlook.

That's nice. I think about that with, with relation to time.

I was just thinking about work and how sometimes you all have to work on something that's quite challenging and you can't do much about that. And the time that you have with your work colleagues is, you know, set, fairly set.

So as a person dictating what the group does, maybe that's something to bear in mind about the ratio of time spent on the challenging thing and then actually on something else that's more enjoyable or something like that to make the time feel more optimistic.

Yes, I love that. I think that should be an action for our listeners. Think about, think about scheduling your time according to that 3 to 1 ratio.

So if, as Kitty said, there is something difficult, challenging, how can you balance it with, with three other positive events, outcomes, tasks, emotions so that you can be in that optimistic state of being? Just to summarize, optimism is this, let's say, habit of the mind to create more empowering explanation of what's happening to us.

And the difference between pessimists and optimist is the way we think about what's happening and how we explain the events that are happening in our life.

We spoke how much optimism is important to our happiness, but specifically how it can help with our health and recovery from diseases and illnesses, which is very interesting. We said four things that can help us to be more optimistic, questions to help us to gain clarity. For instance, what do I know for sure?

We can boost our resilience by finding meaning as optimists in the negative things that might be happening and in the challenges that we are experiencing.

We spoke about being active and positive and optimistic social media user and really focusing on what's in our control, what are we putting out there? And finally, it's not about avoiding negative emotions, but it's very much about spending our time to increasing those positive emotions.

And we spoke about that ratio. Do you remember, Kitty, the ratio?

Yeah, I remember. It was three positive emotions to each negative.

Brilliant. Thank you.

Yeah, Claudia, So there's only a couple more bursts of happiness left after that.

Yes. And then we might be moving on to series three. We're going to keep it secret for now, but keep listening, Claudia.

Don't give all the spoilers. Stop being so optimistic about what's going to happen with the podcast.

Sorry, Kitty. I already analyzed all the worst case scenarios, and I know we can face them. So we all good?

So next month we'll be talking environment and happiness, and we'll be looking back on the episodes Unknown Values and wonder. All right, well, we would love you all to tell a friend about the podcast, please. We actually just hit a milestone.

We've had 10,000 listens now to the podcast, which is incredible.

Yeah. I don't believe it. I cannot even comprehend such big numbers.

I know. So before world domination, tell your friends so you can get in. Before it was cool. And we dare you to be happy.

Dare you to be happy. Have a fantastic month. Bye.