This podcast episode features a profound discussion on the intersection of mental health and missions, underscoring the critical importance of understanding and addressing the mental health challenges faced by missionaries. We are joined by the esteemed Katie Walker, a PhD candidate specializing in counseling psychology, who shares her insights on the unique emotional demands encountered in missionary work. Throughout our conversation, we explore the significance of fostering resilience and the role of supportive relationships, particularly the impact of maintaining connections with friends and family back home. Katie emphasizes the necessity of intentional practices, such as therapy and self-reflection, to cultivate mental well-being in high-stress environments. Ultimately, this episode aims to equip listeners with actionable strategies to promote mental health awareness and support within their own spheres of influence.

Takeaways:

• In an increasingly chaotic world, it is vital for leaders to cultivate intentional quietude to maintain clarity in their ministry and personal lives.
• The concept of mental health among missionaries highlights the unique emotional challenges they face, necessitating targeted support systems.
• Research indicates that maintaining connections with friends and family back home can significantly bolster the mental resilience of missionaries.
• The 'pedestal effect' illustrates the psychological impact on missionaries when they transition from being viewed as leaders to experiencing mundane life back home.
• Effective communication about mental health within missionary teams fosters an environment of safety and openness, enabling individuals to seek help without fear of stigma.
• Benevolent detachment allows caregivers to support others without compromising their own mental health, emphasizing the importance of self-care in service roles.

Greetings and welcome back to the Clarity podcast.

So excited to have our friend with the podcast, Dick Foth, on another session of Back channel with Fo.

And then we're going to jump into our interview with Katie Walker on mental health and missions date.

Dick, welcome back to the podcast.

Thanks a million.

Always a joy.

Yes, Dick, got two questions for you today.

The first one is, there is a lot of noise in the world today.

How have you learned to filter it out so it does not influence your ministry?

My reflex response to that question is I'm not sure that I have learned to filter it out.

I did end up putting my phone across the room so when I wake up in the middle of the night, I don't reach for it and punch into some news outlet or to see who.

Who from the other side of the world sent me a note in the middle of the night.

You know, that that doesn't help anybody, but I have a friend by the name of Darrell Wooten who is just publishing a book in April coming out and sent me a note.

And, and the, the book is called Shh.

Leading with Quiet in a World of Loud.

Wow.

And the sub.

The subtitle is Learned Learn to lead with Calm Confidence in a World that Never stops talking.

And the book.

And again, I haven't, I haven't read it at this juncture, but I know Darrell and he's, he's one of the more thoughtful, innovative persons I've been around in, in some time.

And he invites leaders, I'm going to quote here to rediscover a countercultural advantage.

Intentional quiet.

That's the advantage.

When leaders fail to create quiet, they lose clarity, burnout, emotionally and unintentionally silence the very people they're trying to lead.

And it goes on to say shh will help you move from chaos to clarity.

I like there's that word, clarity there it is.

Quiet is not weakness.

It is strength under control.

Just because it's the proliferation of designer information, if I can put it that way.

We live in a designer world.

And I think in order to do that, and I know there's another question coming up here that I think speaks to it a bit, but I think this, this idea that there are certain things as a leader that I need to know and focus on, I do not have the capacity to Focus on everything.

And when I do that, when I get distracted by that, it weakens my impact.

Let me put it in terms of the metaphor of light.

I'm sitting in a.

And this is not in my notes for an answer.

Here.

I am sitting in Colorado about an hour north of Denver and an hour south of Cheyenne, Wyoming.

It's an overcast day here, which is a little unusual, but I'm sitting at my desk, lights coming in from the window, through the window, and the lights coming in here at the same rate it always does.

186,000 miles per second squared.

You know, it's fast.

I mean, it's just.

It's really ripping.

And we're doing this.

We're doing this podcast, and we're zooming so I can see you at the speed of light.

Right?

But those light waves are all different kinds.

And if folks want to look at the electromagnetic spectrum on there, just Google it and you'll see.

But.

But it's coming in different phases and wavelengths and all of that.

But if you.

If you sink the light waves, that's called a laser.

And lasers, if you've ever had eye surgery to take floaters out of your eyes, you know, lasers concentrate light in a specific way that can destroy bad things, heal like that, like I just described.

And I wonder if Jesus, when he says, I'm the light of the world, is saying that.

And when he says, you're the light of the world, he's saying that.

But if.

But if I'm scattered.

Yeah, I.

It can't happen.

So anyway, that's my.

Sort of rambling.

No, no, no.

I. I love the analogy.

And very poignant, for sure, Dick.

So that's the second question.

Same person said, any resources that you would recommend when staying focused?

And again, I scramble to say, you know, I don't know that I have a stay focused section in my library, but I think scripture passages that would.

That speak to me.

I really like the prologue of John, John 1:1:18, the gospel of John.

Many scholars think it was a song, a hymn that was sung by the early church.

And if you read that in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and you go down through it, there's something for all kinds of people.

If you're a philosopher, theologian, those first phrases help if you're a scientist, or the second part helps you about light and life.

And if you're.

If you're a PR person, if you're in marketing or Marcos and you get to John the Baptist, it hardly gets better.

Than that.

And if you're a psychologist and you get to the place where Jesus was rejected.

Yeah, we're all over that.

We know about rejection.

And what I'm saying is that I have a friend.

Well, he's been on this program.

He talks a lot about the power of alignment.

And focus is a different word for alignment.

So John 1 through 18, 1 verses 1 through 18.

I think the Psalms.

Psalms are reflective.

Yeah.

They talk about the stars, but here's the psalmist saying, you know, you've created the stars, there's nobody like you and you're always here.

And in the next Psalm he's saying, where are you?

And I think by reading that, I identify again with what it means to be scattered and what it means to be focused.

I think the proverbs are the same way.

Just a couple of books.

There could be 38 books, but let me just say a couple I really like reading.

He has a little book, he's got a lot of books, but he has a little book called in the Name of Jesus that was written after his academic career when he taught Yale and Harvard and he was in I think Toronto.

And there's something, there was something and I can't say it in the French, you could say it Lars or Larche.

I don't know how you say it, but it was a community for developmentally disabled adults, people who had incapacities that would be seen obviously.

And in the Name of Jesus is very thought provoking about how I focus my life.

And then someone who's much more common today, a fellow named James Mark Comer who used to pastor in up in Portland area.

He has a book called the Ruthless Elimination of Hurry.

Many of our readers may have read it, but, but he approaches a number of subjects that help, I think, help us say, okay, let's choose, let's, let's see what's important here.

Yeah, he's, I understand he was a great disciple, devotee, friend of Dallas Willard and I knew Dallas some and anyway, I just think that would be an interesting read for a lot of folks for sure.

Dick always appreciate spending time with you on back channel with folks and you answering listeners questions.

We're going to go ahead and jump into our interview with Katie Walker on mental health and missions.

Well, there's no time better than now to get started.

So here we go.

Greetings and welcome back to the Clarity podcast.

So excited to be here with a friend, a new friend of the podcast, Katie Walker.

Katie, welcome to the podcast.

Great to be here.

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Katie, by chance, or I don't think we won't say chance, it was by maybe Providence, I had the opportunity to be in Atlanta where you're presenting, and you did a phenomenal job sharing.

And I, you know, probably you probably thought, who's this weird guy coming up to me after I'm speaking, asking me to be on this podcast?

But you just did a phenomenal job and I thought it'd be great to have you on, to be an encouragement and to help us all learn from you.

So.

So, Katie, for those who didn't have the opportunity to be with you in Atlanta, to learn from you in Atlanta, will you share a little bit about yourself and then I'm going to start asking you some questions?

Yeah, absolutely.

So I currently am a 4th year PhD student in counseling psychology at Texas A and M University.

So our program's like four or five years.

So the lights at the end of the tunnel somewhere.

Eventually I'll be finished with my PhD, but not tomorrow.

But yeah, I'm incredibly passionate about mental, but particularly when it comes to mental health for missionaries.

A lot of that is rooted in, you know, my church background incredibly emphasized missions.

Also, uniquely, my mom was a therapist growing up.

And so the Lord kind of combined me hearing about mental health growing up and missions growing up.

And I was like, wow, well, I think these two things could come together.

And here I am, I'm lucky enough to do my research for my PhD in missionary mental health.

So currently working on chapters four and five of my dissertation on missionary mental health, looking at effective psychotherapy with missionaries.

And so that's a little bit of my background on why I was in Atlanta and presenting about mental health for missionaries and how to have conversations about that.

And so, yeah, I was honored to be there in Atlanta and really excited to be here today.

So thanks again for having me.

Awesome.

So of the, I mean, I didn't, I didn't get my PhD.

I got my doctorate and the millions of topics you could have chose from mental health and missions, that's something you chose.

And you shared a little bit in Atlanta about your mom and growing up with a therapist.

What was it like growing up in a family?

With who?

With a parent who is a therapist?

Ah, yeah.

You know, I think my mom was wise about it.

You know, she didn't say like, we're going to sit around the table at dinner talking about our feelings.

Like, you know, it wasn't necessarily like that.

It was just really intentionally woven into what it was like.

I mean, even just in how my mom operated in discipline and what it was like for my mom to just be really vocal about things that kids need to hear, like, hey, I'm going to love you no matter what.

Like that.

Like, those words for parents really change everything, you know, and help kids.

So for me, you know, it wasn't necessarily like, oh, my mom's a therapist, so this is why we do xyz.

But it was just kind of a lot of care, a lot of love growing up.

And then once I was older and was able to put the pieces together, I was like, oh, okay, that makes sense.

There was a purpose and a reason behind why we did things differently than other families did.

Yeah, well, your mom must have did a better job than I did as a father.

So I'm in the medical world and none of my kids went into the medical profession.

They decided that they didn't want to have anything to do with that.

That might have been that we used our kitchen table in Madagascar for treating people and all kinds of things, but I don't know.

So we laugh and joke about it.

But anyway, your mom had a.

Must have a great influence on your life because like I said, my kids were not so.

Not so interested.

So mental health admissions, that's.

It's a unique combination.

Can you share about the uniqueness of that and the.

Yeah, the uniqueness of mental health emissions?

You know, I think particularly when it comes to the uniqueness, it's just that the profession in of itself is intertwined with people's mental health.

That there is that the profession is inherently really emotionally taxing.

And to do ministry, it's relational.

And it takes a lot of mental capacity to connect with people relationally.

And so there's kind of this complexity to.

To the field and what it's like to be a missionary because it's not something you really turn off.

Like, I think that there's a similarity to being a therapist and a missionary.

It's not something that you like when you're an engineer, you can kind of leave it and you're eight to five, but, you know, when it's kind of when you're.

You're sitting with your emotions every day as a therapist, you're sitting with people every day and your ministry and you're calling with people every day when you're a missionary.

So I think these layered aspects can one really enhance resilience for the population when it comes to mental health, but it also really enhances vulnerability.

And so really figuring out a way for, to lean more towards resilience rather than vulnerability.

It takes intentionality.

There's also things like rates of trauma are incredibly high for missionaries due to different locations in which they could be placed.

Warfare, natural disasters, terrorism or epidemics, stuff like that.

But then also mental health disorders for missionaries are just incredibly high.

You know, I have numbers here that are quite staggering actually, that I'm looking at.

47.9% of female missionaries and 42.1% of male missionaries report anxious symptoms.

32.5% of female missionaries and 27.5% of male missionaries report depressive symptoms.

These are high numbers, I think in really warrant people to kind of take a step back and ask why and then, and then after we ask why, you know, what do we do about it?

Yeah, sure, that's something.

Yeah, yeah.

You mentioned two words there.

Well, you mentioned, you said a lot there and I could go 15 different directions, but I won't do that to you.

Resilience and vulnerability.

When you think of those two words, what do you, what, what comes to mind with resiliency and vulnerability?

I think they kind of go hand in hand because in order to find resilience, you have to be vulnerable with yourself first.

You have to be vulnerable with the Lord first too.

You know, when I think of, you know, David and him writing the psalms, you know, how incredib vulnerable those were for him, to be honest.

But then what did he find in the midst of that?

He found the Lord's presence, which then led to resilience.

And so, but if we stay in our vulnerability in the absence of the Lord, then that's when you know, it can really go downhill quickly.

So I think, yeah, we have to allow ourselves to be vulnerable and honest with ourselves to know how to care for ourselves.

You know, have to know that there's a, a bullet shot wound in order to know how.

Bullet shot wound, sure.

So it starts with vulnerability, but then we know, okay, so we recognize that there's a bullet shot wound.

But then are we just going to look at it while it's bleeding or what are we going to do to care for it?

That's where the resistance comes in.

Yeah, good word, good word.

Those things just jumped out.

And you talked about, you know, the intertwinedness of mental health and missions.

I think some of the challenges is for so long.

Well, I should, I shouldn't speak.

I'll speak for me.

For so long we separated and it was.

We tried to dichotomize or how many itemizes you wanted to.

Mental health was separate, or it wasn't something necessarily we talked about, or it was something that was maybe marginalized or maybe stigmatized.

But now I think we're growing in understanding of the intertwinedness, just as you shared.

And my wife's got sick and tired of hearing this analogy, but I've used it a lot in the last two weeks, this idea.

I grew up in coal country, West Virginia, so I say when coal miners come, they do a physical.

They tell them you're physically fit, you can go down in the coal mines and you can work.

And they work for eight, nine years.

I said it would be illogical and academically unsound for them when they come out in 10 to 12 years covered in coal, lungs full with coal dust, for me to say, hey, what did you do?

You did something wrong by going down in the coal mine and ended up sick.

But it was the environment they were in that a lot of working there because they went in healthy, right?

They went in at a healthy place and they're coming out sick.

And it would be illogical for me to say, well, hey, you did something wrong.

But a lot of times it was just the environment, the stress, the things they were exposed to that caused the sickness.

Does that make any sense at all?

You say, wow, that was a bad analogy, Aaron, you're distracted.

I love that analogy, you know, and it's reminding me of something that I said multiple times back in my presentation in Atlanta, which makes sense for missionaries and coal miners and everyone in between, is that all behavior makes sense in context.

Wow.

So that makes sense in the context of coal mining and in the context of for missionaries and what it's like for someone to return back to their passport country or even while they're in the field or before.

Yeah.

Behavior makes sense in context.

We have to understand the context first in order to meet people with compassion.

So absolutely, I love that analogy.

That's great.

All right, so I'll move on to another question.

So you've been doing your research in mental health emissions.

What are two or three areas you have found in insightful or important to note for those listening in?

You know, one of the interesting things in the research that I absolutely love and is something that people can, can do today is that research shows that having friends and family back home in their passport country is the greatest protective factor that leads to resilience Interesting.

Yeah.

In, in all of mental health care, it's, it's having people that are in your support system, back in your pass country that are checking in with you that leads to that resilience that I was talking about.

Wow.

So I think even just saying those words, like if, if your person is your mom back home or your friend Billy Bob from third grade and those are your people that you care about, you know, literally saying that, hey, just having you in my back pocket of knowing that you're there for me, whether we're checking in once a month or you know, you're, you know, reaching out, however often what it's like for you guys, just knowing that that person is there for you leads to that resilience.

So I love that, that fact, that is not a big hoop for anyone to jump through.

Sure.

So that's incredibly practical and it's something.

That, you know, that I think the majority of people, there might be some people that don't have any family or friends and maybe they've passed along or passed away, but at the same time that's something very, as you said, very applicable and something that we can be intention and focus on for sure.

So love that.

Anything else that you found that was insightful or you thought was surprising?

You know, I think.

Well, of course when you, when I saw that you sent me this question, I was like, I could go 50 million different ways with it, of course.

But I think too, the concept of the pedestal effect I think is really long lasting for missionaries.

Are you familiar with this?

Go ahead, I'd love to hear more about it.

It.

The, it's this idea that missionaries or even people in ministry in general are kind of placed on a pedestal by other people in, in their churches or sending organizations or even family or friends that we were just talking about just a second.

There's kind of this pedestal that they're, they're placed on that, oh, you know, you're, you know, potentially moving to a whole new country, you know, doing this, this foreign, you know, mission, you know, leading to impacts on people's mental health, particularly when they return home, back to their passport country and then no longer are they on said pedestal really can impact people's mental health when, when they're coming back, when they're repatriating, coming back and they're looking around and no longer are people really praising them for what they're doing.

You know, they're maybe reintegrating back to their job as an engineer or something that they did back before they were on mission.

And, and I think this is not talked about as much in the field, but there's some research coming out on it on just the uniqueness of the.

The drastic difference between being on the pedestal and then suddenly it being yanked from under your feet, in addition to what it's like to reintegrate back into.

Into your culture, stuff like that.

So I think just as far as like something important to note, I think that's something that people researching in this field are kind of keeping an eye on, particularly when it comes to what it's like to care for our missionaries when they come back.

Very interesting.

And the idea of being on a pedestal and then coming off, I would have thought.

And I guess the mentality both ways and the impact.

Not something I had necessarily thought, I think.

Well, I, I think the majority of missionaries would say, and majority, I would say uncomfortable, me included.

Uncomfortable with being put on a pedestal.

At the same time, that idea of if you're uncomfortable with it and then you're taken off of it, maybe you got used to the idea and, and maybe that's entitlement, I want to say entitlement, but something, you know, when you're on a pedestal, sometimes there's some benefits that come from being on a pedestal.

Right.

As you talked about your.

Sometimes your opinion weighs more.

Sometimes your jokes are funnier.

Sometimes you're invited to things just because you're unique in the sense that, hey, this lady or this family or this person, they serve in a different country.

And you're invited to parties or different gatherings just because of that uniqueness.

And then when you live and you're back in your home state or where you're from, it becomes quickly, it becomes a distant past for you.

So there's a phrase in, for instance, l' hoi mort vive le, which is the king is dead.

Live the king.

And so basically it's this idea is once a season has passed, people quickly move to the next, right?

And so that idea of this one's dead now live the nuking.

And I think sometimes in missions it'll happen that way when something new or interesting else comes along.

Anything else, when it comes to surprising or things that jumped out to you.

Pedestal effect, family and friends.

I do.

I have another question for you on research, but anything else that came out that was surprising or you found interesting?

Well, one other quick thing I think is interesting is just that a lot of the people doing this stuff now are missionary kids or grew up being missionary kids.

And so, yeah, they were looking around, noticing Things that made their eyebrows raise and they're like, oh, I'm gonna go study it.

And so I think that that's interesting.

Just a little fun fact there of.

Yeah, I found in my own connections with people in this field, often they probably grew up on it themselves.

And which makes it exciting of people who have firsthand experience being really curious and clearly care enough about mission work to want to help make it better and help care for people.

So that's just really fun.

No, and very insightful.

So, Katie, here's the question I have for you.

When it comes to research.

So how does someone know, because you've mentioned research is coming out.

How do you know when you're looking at something?

This is not just somebody's opinion, but this is actually research that I think that we can begin to consider.

Maybe that has the academic rigor to it or something that you as a PhD candidate would take serious.

Does that make sense?

Because sometimes people will put out things and it's, I did my research and then, you know, it could just be an opinion piece.

And then if somebody takes that opinion and then tries to extrapolate it out into their life into the, maybe the people they serve, it could become.

There might be a correlation, but maybe not a causation.

There could be a lot of ways that that could be just not healthy.

So when you look at something, what are you saying?

Wow, this was really well done.

And this is something I think could apply to a broader audience.

Is that fair?

Yeah, absolutely.

I think that this is something that I'm finding as I'm trying to write my dissertation is that I'm only allowed to use peer reviewed journals.

So really that's, you know, academic standard is, is someone submitting this to a group of their peers to be reviewed.

And so it's not just what Katie Walker's saying, it's other people that would be reading what Katie Walker is saying and saying, oh, this is legit.

And so looking at what is the source listed on, which is a little difficult in this field because there are so many people that have really great things to say but aren't actually putting them through those, those peer reviewed sources.

And so as I'm reading all this stuff that isn't peer reviewed, I'm like, oh, this is legit.

And I wish I could include this in my official dissertation.

Can you like actually work up something and submit it, please, so I can use this?

And so, yeah, I would say peer reviewed journals is, is where, you know, we should start.

And now that doesn't totally completely discredit what people are putting, you know, on their sending organization sites, like, hey, this is what works for XYZ Senior Organization of what we found.

And so I think that there's some consideration that we can take into that.

You know, some, you know, we can respect what XYZ Senior Organization is saying, but it hasn't gone through a peer reviewed journal like the Journal of Psychology and Christianity, for example.

Sure.

Is that.

Can I answer your question?

That answers.

That answers my question.

And you probably don't remember, but one of the things when I came home and asked you to be on the podcast was I was hoping that you were going to publish, once you're done, done all this, that you'll publish it, because I think the richness of the work you're doing warrants it being published so that, because you can begin to build that challenge of building a foundation is.

It's hard work, but the work you've done, you've put a lot of effort into it and a lot of insight and you do a phenomenal job communicating it.

And so I think helping put it out there.

So there is foundational work so that when, if somebody wants to do research, they can refer to Dr. Katie Walker's work on mental health emissions, because then it helps build a base.

Because if not, as you said, it might be great work, but if it's not run through that rigor sometimes, then people can't quote it and then it loses some of its audience just because of that.

So, no, you did a great job.

That was, that was a side one.

But you had mentioned research a few times, so I thought I'd throw it out there.

So for parents, there's parents, many parents listening to this podcast, or maybe there's grandparents.

So parents, grandparents, parents that want to create an environment at home that.

So that promotes mental health.

You talked about your mom and some things that your mom had done for missionary families.

Moms, dads, grandparents.

What would you recommend to them?

That's a broad subject.

What were some key things you would say?

This is what I'd recommend to you to help promote mental health in the home.

I would say, absolutely, talk about it, but talk about it wisely.

Now, what I mean by that is what is emotionally appropriate for your kid to carry?

Probably not saying dad is depressed.

Okay?

What it could look like is saying, hey, dad's gonna go on a run this morning for his mental health.

I feel so much more relaxed and I have such a better day after I go on a run, because running is Dad's coping strategy, that child can understand and that child is gonna think about, oh, dad's doing something to help him rather than oh, dad is depressed.

So then I need to be worried about dad.

That's probably not emotionally appropriate for that child to worry about.

It's just being wise.

And so but by modeling good habits, this kiddo is going to be like, oh, maybe when I feel sad, anxious or worried, maybe running could help me.

Yeah, or something like that.

And so what is appropriate in talking about it?

I think being wise, but being afraid of being wise, keeping you silent is the problem.

I think that when parents aren't talking about it, when they're not having conversations with their kids, then it leaves kiddos confused and they can't bring it up to their parents that they're having struggles because, you know, all of us adults know that we're struggling ourselves.

And so I think finding ways in which that we can normalize emotions, naming them, like even just using the words, like, I felt really excited today at work or on, you know, on the mission field because I had this conversation with this person.

Like even just using the word excited and like modeling, using emotions, words, I feel blank.

Helps incorporate emotions into, into the home that kiddos can use to help them recognize their own emotions.

Because like I was talking about, you know, if we don't have, if we don't recognize that we have a bullet shot wound, we don't know how to fix it it.

So if we don't recognize how we feel, we don't know what we can do to feel better.

Wow.

Wow.

And so that would be how I would say to start, figure out what age are my kiddos, what is appropriate in our conversations developmentally for my child.

And kind of just starting to talk about it.

Talk about what you do to help yourself feel better, figure out what it's like for your kid.

Like, you might be a runner, your kiddo might be really into drawing, you know, help your kiddo figure out them, you know, and then kind of talk about it together.

So sure, sure.

So one of the things in, in medical training is we learned, you know, they said one of my anatomy and physiology class and then physical assessment class, they said there's no way we're going to be able to teach you every disease, but we're going to teach you what a healthy human body looks like, sounds like all the things for health.

And then when it would.

Anytime you encounter someone that deviates from that should be a red flag or something.

You should say, this is something I Need to explore more because they said there's just no way that you're going to be able to remember all these things.

Maybe they knew us from West Virginia and there's no way I could remember them all.

But it really stuck out to me that what I really need to know is what health looks like.

And then if I know what health looks like, then if it's deviating from that, I know how to get there.

So I'm mentally.

A home that's safe is promoting mental health.

One of the things you mentioned earlier was your mom saying, I love you.

You.

That love was not conditional.

So are there other things that you would say when you think of an ideal, and it is ideal, but a healthy home where mental health, it's a safe place for people to be mentally healthy.

Would there be other things beyond love, not being conditional that you would think of?

I think having an equal balance of being authoritative as a parent and being warm.

I think often parents think that being authoritative means an absence of warmth.

Okay.

Or being incredibly warm means you can't be authoritative.

And so balancing those, meaning, like authority in your house is of course, what are your house rules?

And then holding to those.

But then why are you holding to those?

Explaining that in a warm way to your kiddos.

Because kiddos feel safe within boundaries.

You know, I think often parents, you know, aren't communicating to their parents or.

Or the rules in the house changes all the time based on how you're feeling.

Know if you're feeling happy that day, then you're just going to eat pizza at home.

But then your kiddos are confused why you're not eating pizza at home the next day.

Yeah, those things I think are important.

But just as far as when it, like why that is important for mental health, I would say just consistent routines of.

Of what it's like for your family, particularly when you're in the mission field, when chaos can be pretty common.

I think whatever you can do within your home when you're in the mission field, to have some level of consistency is incredibly important.

Now, that doesn't mean things aren't going to happen.

But what is it like for your family to rest?

No, I think Sabbath is important for you and your kids.

And knowing when you're resting and when you're having that.

That pizza night, I think is important for.

For your kiddos.

And having those rituals are really important.

When you mentioned warm.

Warm and authoritarian with authority, are there other adjectives you would describe with warm?

How would you.

Someone says, well, warm.

What does that look like Katie, how can I be warm when I'm.

We're walking through discipline with my kids?

Is that, that is warm.

Would that include kindness?

Would be other adjectives that you would include with warmness.

Connection.

Okay.

Yeah.

Connecting with your kid.

And now I was talking earlier about figure out your kid.

Like maybe your kid's thing is drawing, like giving yourself time to connect with your kid and knowing them.

Connecting with them uniquely.

Okay.

With that child, I think is, is incredibly warm.

So then your kiddo knows that you know them.

Yeah.

Even just remembering small things, like your kiddo doesn't like crust on their sandwiches.

Sure.

That helps your kiddo feel connected and then communicating that to them.

You know, like you're thinking in your head, oh, I'm going to take the time to cut off the crust on your bread.

Say it out loud.

Hey, I know you don't like crust on your bread, so I'm going to cut it like an acknowledging that.

Saying that out loud to your kid makes your kiddo feel really connected to you because.

Oh, you see me, you know me, you love me.

Me.

Wow.

And so just like how I was talking about earlier, you know, vocalize.

You know, dad's going on run for his mental health.

You know, hey, dad knows this about you because.

Because I know this about you.

I'm going to do this.

Which leads to connection.

So connection before correction.

That's a common therapist term when we're talking.

That's a big buzzword.

You know, we want to connect with our kids before we're correcting them.

Okay.

Oh, that's good.

That's good.

And then the, the one of the things you mentioned about your mom, the, the unconditional love, Is that something, I mean, is that something a parent can say enough?

Or is it.

Or I, I, my assumption would be that that would connect with warmness, that verbalization.

Because what you, you said, you know, expressing that sometimes a parent would maybe think, and I'm sure I've.

I didn't do.

I wasn't a perfect parent.

And still I'm not a perfect parent.

But that idea, of course my kids knew that I, it.

But if I've not verbalized it, does that make sense?

Yeah, you got to say it.

And I would say say it all the time, every day, as much as you can.

And I'm.

And I'm being a little dramatic on that, but I, man, kiddo can't hear it enough.

And I mean, particularly developmentally.

They're going to forget it in two seconds.

I think it's Also helpful for you as a parent, too, to keep saying it.

Okay.

Because on.

On days we have bad days, reminding ourselves that we love our kids no matter what.

Yeah.

Helpful.

Wow.

Wow.

So developmentally, you said they'll forget it in two seconds.

Probably not really two seconds.

But.

But, I mean, but it is.

But I. I think that's important for parents to know.

And so, like, at certain periods of life that you're saying is you maybe need to say it more frequently and then maybe not saying it at all when children get older.

But could you go just a little deeper on that?

I think that if I'm going deeper, I guess I would remind myselves of ways that we're called to love our children in the way that the Lord loves us.

That in Scripture, it's saturated with what the Lord has to say about how much he cares and loves us, and that.

That's unconditional in that same way.

That's the responsibility of us as parents.

Yeah.

Is to keep reminding our children of that.

So if I'm going deeper, I think that's where I would go.

Awesome.

Yeah.

I love it.

Love it.

Next question.

Key action steps.

Somebody's thinking.

They're listening into this, Katie, and they're saying, you know what?

I really want to be many mentally healthy on the field.

And I'm not, you know, I'm on this time of raising support, and I'm.

I want to.

What are some things that you would not.

Not 80 things, but what are one or two things you could say, Aaron, if you're.

Before you go to the field, these are some things you could do.

One of the things you already mentioned was connecting with friends and family.

So I think that was a great one.

Beyond that are some things you would say this is something you can begin to work on and lay a foundation for so that when you get.

When you're on the field, that's already in place.

I mean, I would highly recommend therapy.

Obviously, as a therapist myself, I highly recommend the practice to anyone.

Just check it out is.

Would.

Would be what I would see.

You know, you mentioned someone who's like, maybe before they're going on the field that you know that getting an established routine of checking in with you and caring for you before you would be upended from your life and move to a different context.

Incredibly important.

And so I would highly recommend that to anyone.

But as far as practices that you can do to kind of lay a solid foundation for your mental health would be Be.

Get comfortable.

Ch.

Checking in with yourself.

One of my Favorite verses in scripture, when it talks about Mary is that Mary pondered these things in her heart, you know, when Mary was told about Jesus coming.

I love that word ponder.

I think that a lot of people don't spend enough time pondering things in their heart or kind of checking in, reviewing what happened in my day.

What are the emotions that came up?

I think people don't intentionally set aside time to do that.

So I would highly recommend whether that's, you know, in your daily prayer time with the Lord and you're going through your prayer list, slow down and kind of bring to the Lord.

Okay, I felt really sad that XYZ happened or I feel really hopeful about xyz, you know, you see, I feel blank.

Kind of incorporating that into your spiritual practice with the Lord, I think is.

Is a practical way that you can incorporate great.

Some of that pondering.

Wow, good word.

Good word.

And as you said, I think that's the slowing down and taking the time to do that.

I don't ne.

I think that would be.

My opinion would be.

It's countercultural.

I don't think it's in the American culture to slow down and ponder.

It would probably be.

American culture would be speed up and don't think about it until it's, you know, until it's.

Life's a mess.

But that's that rhythm of being able to slow down, ponder and submit.

And I think that's one of the things about.

There's not a whole lot of things about getting old that I'm enjoying.

But one of the things is I. I can.

I can make the connections when I'm tired.

This.

You know, I was.

Anyway, I've.

We were on a trip and I told you before we started recording and I.

We ended up having to drive and I went to get gas.

I don't like to wake up the next morning and have to go to get gas before I drive.

And so we went to get gas and I was exhausted, tired, wore out, stressed.

And then I've.

What I've learned about myself is when I'm in that state, then I lose things quickly, and then I quickly spiral.

And so when I was younger, I never made the connection between.

The reason this is, is you're tired, you're wore out, you're stressed, and this is it.

And you need to slow down, take a few minutes with Jesus and spend some time with him and then proceed on.

But when I was younger, I would have just thought, you know, this is whatever.

But it is the joy I think of.

Of pondering and making the connection and then inviting Jesus into those spaces.

That's one of the good things about getting old.

So there's not a whole lot of good things, but that one is so it's.

But it's that.

So.

All right, I got one or two more questions for you.

So, missions leaders, many of the people that listen into this podcast are leaders.

They're leading people, whether that's being a team leader or leading others that are leading teams.

How can they create psychological safety or how can they promote so that people that are struggling with their mental health feel safe to bring that up and it's not something they're hiding?

Is that a fair question or any suggestions you would have for leaders?

Absolutely.

I think recognizing who you are in connection with these missionaries, as is really important, meaning your missionaries probably feel some pressure to be relatively performative in front of you in the sense that you probably have some say over if they get to stay in the field or not, what their, what their tasks are or something like that.

And so how is that going to impact someone's honesty with you?

I think recognizing that and then being honest with that and kind of communicating that up front of, hey, I actually really do want to know to how.

How you're doing so I can care for you well.

But in these certain scenarios, I'm going to make sure you have access to other care.

It's like knowing when you're going to escalate something.

You know what like a yellow flag is versus a red flag.

You know, I want to know your yellow flags, meaning you're really struggling right now and probably need a rest day, like those things of like communicating that with your team.

But hey, if you tell me a red flag like you're thinking about hurting yourself or others, like safety concerns, that's when we're going to immediately get you access to care.

Because I'm doing that because I care about you kind of communicating the being honest.

Like what's going to happen when you tell me xyz?

And being upfront about that then creates a culture of honesty within your team.

Interesting.

Would be a really practical recommendation that I would have so that your people feel like they can be honest with you and then who can they talk to as well, who probably isn't.

You aren't directly their leader.

You know, they probably need to have that trusted friend or parent like I talked about who can improve that resiliency.

I think that's one of.

Yeah, one of the challenges you.

You shared that, you know, probably that leader has some Control.

And not a control in a bad way, but just say in somebody's life.

We talk in the, you know, in our world.

So my medical world and your therapy world, this idea that you don't have dual roles, right.

You're not the.

I'm not really supposed to be treating my family because I'm a dad, so I'm not supposed to be their dad and their doctor.

Now, that didn't happen on, on the field, but I was their dad and doctor.

But it does create a tension.

Right.

And I think that some things, something that comes with being a missionary and being a missionary leader is then your dual role quadra.

I mean, you could go down because you end up playing like five or six different roles in somebody's life.

So you're their administrative leader, you're their pastor, you could be their friend, you could be their neighbor, you could be all these roles that are compressed into one.

And then it does create challenges.

And I think the leader understands that, but probably not as much as the team member or the person under them recognizes.

I don't know.

And so one of the things I started doing was asking people when they would come because I was their leader and then their doctor and all the like, what hat do you want me to wear?

Because in this situation, I need to know what hat you're wanting.

Because if you want the doctor Aaron, you're going to get a diagnosis and treatment and, you know, out the door in whatever, 10 minutes.

I don't know, something like that.

But if you're looking for the pastor Aaron, that's going to be a different approach.

If you want the administrative leader, Aaron, you're going to get this approach.

But it just helped me because I really found that I was not showing up in the way that people that I was trying to serve were expecting me to show up or that they wanted me to show up.

And I was just leaving it up to me, reading the situation.

And sometimes the Dr. Aaron's a lot more expedient.

Right?

It's 10 minutes and out the door, you know, I mean, and so that's an expedient thing when they really wanted a friend or they really wanted a pastor and just asking that question.

Does that make any sense at all?

Absolutely.

Yeah.

I think it's incredibly kind to be honest about what hat you're wearing to you and the person you're interacting with with.

Because that probably was somewhat taxing for you to have to jump between your doctor hat when working with your kids or your dad hat.

And so even just Having that clarity for yourself on what hat am I wearing right now?

Yeah.

Kind to you and others.

So I love that concept.

Absolutely.

I, I said my kids, I'm not proud of this, but they got more antibiotics and more things that they probably should never got.

Because when you're the Daddy, I understand 100 why you shouldn't be the dad and the doctor.

Doctor.

Because when you're the doctor, you send those people leave and you don't see them until they come back.

But when you're the dad and the doctor, you treat them and then you're waiting for your treatment to like, you know, do a miraculous work and then you think that wasn't right.

You got to do something else.

And it does it.

It was anyway insightful in my later years on, yeah, I should have found another doctor, but there wasn't one at the time.

So.

Last question I have for you, then I'm going to ask you to pray Somebody's listening in to this and they have their colleague and they want to help or they want to care for somebody on their, on their team or some maybe it's their leader and they want to.

That may be struggling with their mental health or how they can, as a colleague can promote safety so that people can share their challenges or create an environment where mental health is something that is not stigmatized and isolated and marginalized, but is actually something that is talked about and people they can care for others.

Any thoughts?

For a colleague, the first one was a leader.

This is a colleague, friend, somebody serving on the field, how they can care for others and promote mental health in their sphere.

When you're on a team with someone, particularly in a missions context, you get to know people pretty quickly.

What it's like for you guys to have inside jokes or you know each other's food preferences and stuff like that.

I would say get to know each other's yellow flags and red flags when it comes to mental health.

Like for me, my people who are in my corner, my yellow flag is if I stop working out, like that means that my life is too full.

I'm not taking care of myself.

My people are probably going to start asking questions when they notice that about me.

I would say in the same way that you get to know people and their sense of humor, get to know them and what it's like to care for them, to care for their mental health and then check in with them and so establish that, hey, because I care about you, if I notice XYZ things about you that we've kind of Talked about together.

I'm going to start asking questions.

I'm going to be curious.

And now curiosity there is.

I use that word intentionally.

Now, we're not going to start interrogating people or make them feel or my people aren't going to make me feel like I'm guilty because I'm not working out, but my people are going to start being curious.

And they're doing that out of a place of compassion because they care about me.

And I would talk about those things, establish.

Yeah.

What it's like for you to look like what it's like for you when you're healthy, when you're not.

And then how can you support them?

My, my last recommendation, though, would be that your.

Their mental health is not your responsibility.

And so I think reminding yourself of that, yes, you can be in on someone's team and help them, but it has to be their choice if they're going to do something to treat that bullet wound that I've been talking about.

About you can't treat it for them.

Wow.

So reminders of that.

Wow.

And so that was gonna be the last question.

I got three more questions after that.

But so what.

What.

I won't ask you three more questions, but questions, because I think you're.

This is natural for you that you would know.

These are the questions.

So any advice to somebody saying, katie, I want to do that.

I want to ask yellow flag, red flag questions.

Do they just ask, hey, what are your yellow flags?

And red flag, what are their questions?

And how do you.

How would they not turn that into.

And remain curious if they're noticing something and not an interrogation?

Because you said a lot right there.

And I think it comes really well, You've probably learned it, developed it.

It's probably a spiritual gifting you have.

But for some people, that might not be a spiritual gifting.

So any advice to them on how to have those conversations and how to steer away from trying to maybe parent and saying, hey, I notice you're not, you know, because sometimes it can become parental.

And I think that might be the interrog part of it, when we're actually supposed to be a colleague.

So does any of that make sense or you have any thoughts on it?

Sure, yeah.

I think when it comes to mental health, people, they kind of tense up and they're worried they're going to say the wrong thing.

And I think that's actually probably the problem is because we're being silent, we're not talking about it.

Like, for example, when it comes to suicide, people Think, well, if I talk about suicide, then that's going to make someone more likely to die by suicide.

Actually, that's the.

That's incorrect.

Talking about suicide is in way more preventative because it.

It allows people to be able to get access to care.

And so I would say you're probably not going to ask it in a wrong way, but if, yeah, like if, if you are coming from it in a place of I care about this person, like, literally just say, hey, I care about you.

I'm noticing xyz, this sounds like yellow flag situation.

What should we do about.

About it?

Like, l. Like, you're probably not going to say the wrong thing.

Just like practically, like the wrong thing is probably staying silent about it.

And so just saying the words and starting the conversation.

I think even you could preface it with, hey, I'm not going to say this right.

And then good, jump into it.

I think that's just a human moment because we're.

We're all humans in, in this context, I think I've had to remind myself too.

Yes, you're saying, yes, I'm a therapist, and so I talk about the.

These things every day, all day with people.

But as a real human, sometimes I even say to my clients, hey, I'm not going to say this right, but xyz, all of that, because, yeah, we can't all say everything right all of the time.

And recognizing that helps helps us fight stigma about mental health and not being silent about it.

Yeah, all right.

Kind of big on purpose because we, we just.

We just need to start somewhere.

So start with compassion.

Be curious.

You don't have to say it exactly right.

What's wrong is not saying anything.

Now, this is part C of my last question for you, so I had my.

Sorry.

You.

You mentioned not being responsible for somebody's mental health.

They need to be responsible for their mental health.

Sure.

What would trying to be responsible for somebody's mental health look like?

One or two things.

Being responsible for someone else's mental health is letting your worry for them impede your own mental health.

Good.

So if you're finding yourself unable to do your responsibilities or your tasks, or even if you're losing your sense of peace because they've lost theirs, that would be a yellow flag for you.

There's this concept of benevolent detachment.

I could talk about it for a whole hour.

I would recommend those people who are listening to look it up.

It's really tied in with prayer of what it's like to benevolently detach from things once you bring them to the Lord, I'd recommend people look it up.

When it comes to what it's like to care for others, I practice it as a therapist.

I have to benevolently care for people 50 minutes once a week.

But if I'm sitting at dinner with my family and I'm worried about my client and what they're having to do tonight or in their own mental health, and I'm not taking care of me because I'm not being present with my people because then I can't care for them again next week.

And so, like I said, I could talk about benevolent detachment for another hour, but I'd recommend people look that up.

That's a great way to.

You can care about people, but you don't have to carry them with you.

Wow.

Well, if this wasn't too painful, maybe you could come back and talk about benevolent detachment, because that's.

That is sounds like a phenomenal subject.

So, Katie, it's been an honor to have with you on the podcast, and once again, you're a phenomenal communicator and your love for this field comes out, and it's been a joy to have you.

Will you pray for us and we'll close it out with prayer?

Absolutely.

Father, thank you just for the opportunity for me to be here.

I. I thank you for the listeners of this podcast.

Um, I pray that I was able to get out of the way and that you were able to speak through me, Lord, and that people can listen to this podcast and know that caring for them and caring for their emotions, it's all just a part of what it's like to image you, Lord, I pray that you help us image you better.

I'm grateful most of all for the gift of your son, Jesus.

In Jesus name we pray.

Amen.

Amen.