Rev. Craig Duke is Rev. Dr. Brad Miller's guest on Episode 059 of the United Methodist People Podcast.

Craig tells the story of the unique opportunity that came his way to appear on the HBO Television show "We're Here" which features a traveling "Drag Queen" show that recruits and transforms local folk in smaller towns to participate in a "Drag Show."

Following a calling, Craig felt, to become a bridge between the church and LGBTQ community and to support his daughter Craig agreed to participate in the show.

The fallout following his appearance in the show led to his departure from his church.

In this episode, Craig tells the good, the bad, and ugly of his experience and his newfound commitment to new ministry opportunities.

For United Methodists following the debate in the church regarding how the church relates (or doesn't) to LGBTQ persons, this is a must listen to hear first-hand the personal heartache, drama, and rejoicing surrounding matters of human sexuality in our church.

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Reverend Dr. Brad Miller here on the United

Methodist people podcast is the podcast where we are navigating

what is next in the United Methodist Church through

conversation and commentary. And it's a deed of pleasure today.

To bring it to our conversation, Reverend Craig Duke Craig glows

in the Evansville Indiana area, and has a background along and

very positive background as the United Methodist pastor. In the

last few months, though, he's been embroiled in some

conversation and some some difficulties and some challenges

and some great blessings as he appeared on the on an HBO

program show called we're here, which is involves the story of

three drag queens, who go to various small towns and to have

local folks who they have performed at a drag show. And

Craig participated in such an event in Evansville last summer

in the summer of 2021. And the program aired in November of

2021. And sled to various of the challenges that Craig has had,

but opportunities and blessings. And we're going to talk about

that a little bit here today and all kinds of things about

mission and ministry, and the challenges of life and in our

world right now. But Craig, welcome to to the United

Methodist people podcast.

Thanks, Brad. It's good to be with you today. And I

look forward to our conversation always lots of talks about

well, Craig and I are good colleagues and ministry

in the state of Indiana and in personal friends and, and I

familiar with his background in ministry. But Craig Just to give

give a little context to folks who are listening to us just a

little bit about your history and ministry. You've been been

around in ministry for some time and just give a little

background, it kind of leads us up to the point we're going to

talk about here today.

Sure. I've been an ordained pastor for now going

into my 34th year. And I've always served in the United

Methodist Church in the state of Indiana. And I started out back

in 1988, and have served five churches up to that time, I'm in

my sixth church now. And during that time, it has been a

wonderful journey. I'm married. My wife, Linda and I serve

together. She's not ordained. But we met in seminary, and I

went to Garrett Evangelical Theological Seminary up in

Evanston, Illinois, where we met, fell in love and got

married. And we have one daughter, Tiffany, and she's

engaged to Ben. And so we've got lots of exciting things moving

forward in our life.

Well, and then, and I just want to say this about

the churches that you've served, and I'm familiar with this, in

almost every case, you've had a very positive ministry, is that

there, right, and some, you know, more people coming to

Christ and baptisms and affirmations, and you've had

some success at church camp. I just want to kind of affirm that

confirm that with you. Is that the case?

Yeah, I believe so. We've been very fortunate and

blessed in the church we served and, you know, you know, as well

as I do, we answer a call to go are sent. And we have as well.

And we have had a wonderful experience in church Camping

Ministry. That has certainly been something that's at the

heart for Linda and I and regardless of where we have

served in a local church, we have always been in Camping

Ministry, and the most often at a campground called the historic

Santa Claus campground in Santa Claus, Indiana, there really is

such a place for those of you that may not be familiar with

it. And we've enjoyed a wonderful ministry there with

from elementary all the way up to high school and college age

students, and having the opportunity to talk about life

to talk about Christ, and to have the opportunity for the to

to engage together. And then in our churches, we've had the

fortune of serving in some situations where the growth was

really tangible to see. One Two I lift up is the church I served

in Princeton, Indiana, which was a merger of three churches. And

that was an exciting and challenging time as we watch

those three churches work through leaving their respective

buildings, building something new, and then watch it blossom

in the community. So I would say yes, we've had a very positive

experience in our ministry where everything

is what kind of went for the friend where he's

had good success in ministry for well over 34 years. And so one

reason why I share that a little bit is because you found

yourself out of ministry at the present moment. And it's based

in large part due to some controversy stirred up when you

made some decisions in order to participate in a television

program that is which involve dressing in drag and performing

in drag. And then has then been stirred up controversy in your

local church setting where you're at and some other places

as well. But it's been an interesting experience. And

here's a question for you, Craig, is this How in the world

did this come about? Really? How did this emerge in your life out

of, you know, just kind of cruising along admission in

ministry, and then this opportunity came. And so tell us

the story about how this came about for you to be on the

television program we are here.

Well, it's turned out to be a remarkable moment

and phase of our lives. I received a phone call is where

it started. And it was a phone call from a person who is on the

pride board. in Evansville, the pride board is an organization

that works to provide positive support input and awareness for

the LGBTQI plus community, in the Evansville, and Evansville

greater area. I was simply asked one question, and that question

was, since I am an affirming pastor, and so that's part of my

journey, I am a person that believe love is love, and love

is for all and all should be accepted. And that goes for

LGBTQ brothers and sisters. I was asked as an affirming

pastor, would you be interested in willing to participate, and

then a reality show on HBO Max, that dealt with drag and

performing and drag. And I kind of chuckled. And I simply said,

Well, sure. Because I was convinced they would never call

me back. And so they did. What ended up being a several week

interviewing experience on both phone with COVID. And actually

some in person interviews, I realized they were interested in

me for a couple of reasons. One, I am the proud father of

Tiffany, as I mentioned, and Tiffany identifies as pansexual.

And that puts her on the spectrum in the LGBTQ community.

And so as the father of a gay child, and affirming a parent of

a gay child, they were intrigued to have a pastor a person of

quote unquote, religious authority to participate in this

very non conventional experience. After a series of

interviews, I would receive the phone call that said, we are

choosing you. And that set into motion, the reality of a week

long experience, where I was followed with cameras, and

series of interviews on camera, that engage me in dialogue with

members of the gay community with drag queens, as well as

answering my own questions. In regards to where I am

theologically spiritually and why I would participate in such

an experience, I would say that it turned out to be a very

transforming although challenging result.

And so it is evolved that you actually did

the performance and you made some connections with some

interesting and fascinating characters who you worked with

and, and just telephoto how that experience actually went tell us

about some of the folks that you've worked with on this

television program and, and how they work together, we'll get to

some of the trip stuff in a minute. But I'm really

interested in the the folks you've worked with,

I think it's great to give me an opportunity to

talk about that, because it is an amazing world culture

experience. And so I was I was immersed with a, a crew of

professional, camera crew professional, every one crew.

And the featured celebrities, if you will, on the show are three

drag queens, so I had the opportunity to work with Eureka,

who is considered to be my drag mother work was Chandeleur and

also Bob the drag queen. And that's the name that he goes by.

As I encountered and met with them, I I was made aware of some

of the vernacular that was to be important. Although my drag

mother is biologically a man, and as a man goes by David, when

in drag, and during our time together the whole time I

referred to her as you Rica. And I was referred to as a her my

pronouns are he, his and him, which are very important.

However, they referred to me, as a girl and daughter, during this

journey with my drag mother, as we would get together, whether

it be the makeup artist, or the other folks, it was clear that

the majority were most comfortable referring to each

others in the feminine. And it became very natural. How are you

doing girl? What's taking place at my drag daughter. And so what

I did discover, however, was working with all of these folks,

that drag was so much more than just a performance that some

would say over the top personality wise. I discovered

that drag was a calling for these folks. And they were they

were sharing and living out what they would call their their

fierce reality of exposing the world not just to drag but

creating awareness for the area. LGBTQ community, wherever that

may be. And so the name of the show we're here comes from the

fact that everywhere there are gay individuals. And so when

they arrive on the scene, what they're simply exposing, if you

will, are those gay members of that community that are willing

to either participate in the show and the experience, or for

all of the allies and other straight folks in the community,

to be educated, made aware, and given the opportunity to

experience a drag show. And in so doing, it created a bridge in

most circumstances, between the community and the LGBTQ

community, and creating an awareness, there were certainly

those moments and not just my episode, but other episodes,

where it was not as positive from some of the townfolk. But I

was fortunate in Evansville, that we did not receive any

protest, or anything of that nature. The

basic premise of the show, this isn't on HBO, is

that the crew, the drag show comes to town, small town,

America, wherever our places that would not in many contexts

would be known for having diversity and opinions turns to

having drag shows, and they recruit filarial folks, and they

make it known that theory or and it's it, and it's meant to, to

generate attention, that's for sure. On this and to raise

awareness here about this issue. And yeah, and I just have to,

you know, I watch the the program that you were on, and

some of the other ones as well, and, and saw that there is, you

know, genuine affirmation and affection between the folks and

encouragement and all kinds of other things that happened. And

I thought it was pretty cool. And yet also challenging. And

the Yeah, you know, you and I are both clergy in the United

Methodist Church. And when I first heard about this, I just,

I just really thought to myself, Oh, my, I really wonder how this

is going to go down. And meet Yeah, you do, man. And so that's

part of the reason we have this conversation, here's unpack

this. So you could speak for yourself, because, you know, a

lot of rumors, a lot of stories, good stuff have happened. And,

you know, this is been public sighs So I don't know, through

church channels, but through, you know, national news, and so

on your times, and things like, that is your opportunity to

speak for yourself. But I'm interested in breaking down a

little context of how this worked. In the church. As far as

I can see here, basically, Craig, you got kind of three

different dynamics, at least going on, you got the dynamic

with your daughter, which is a part and your family, which is a

part of the whole process here, you get the dynamic with the

folks on the show the what you're basically being exposed

to the best of my knowledge, at least to the LGBTQ community, in

depth at this level, which you would never have been before.

And then you got the dynamic in the church. So we want to talk

about the people of United Methodist Church on this

podcast, and you're one of the people, your daughter's one of

the people. And the people of the church that you're a part of

are part of that as well, as well as the dynamic in our

denominational system conference appointments and so on. How did

it go down? How did you kind of frame this going into the church

prior to, you know, committing to be a part of the show?

Sure. There are a couple of things that I did that

were very intentional. The first one was that when I was aware

that I was going to be participating, for sure, and I

made that decision. I met with a church staff. And all of the

church staff were made aware of my participating in the show the

episode what it would entail. And I made sure that they

understood why I was doing it. One for the relationship with my

daughter, but also because of the need, in my opinion, for the

church to reach out to all people but especially to the

LGBTQ community, which have been, by and large, not only

ostracized but certainly not included. Often churches will

use a term everyone's welcome here. And welcoming is fine, but

welcome is not the same as invitation. And and inviting

someone to truly be included. I use the analogy that it's one

thing to unlock the door. It's another thing to hold the door

open and guide people through it. And so with the church, I

told the staff, but I made a conscious decision not to make

the church aware at that point in time. Now, what has been

missing misconstrued is great secrecy was on my part, the the

ability for the church to continue to be themselves once

the camera crew came and filmed me on a Sunday morning. I was

giving the church plausible deniability and I was giving my

my supervisor and others plausible deniability so that

anything that did come down as a challenge or controversy would

not be on those people that I serve or be on those who I

worked for, but would come back towards me, that didn't work

quite the way that I dissipated. But I did invite the camera crew

to come on a Sunday morning. The reason that was important to me,

because I could have said, I'm aware of this, I could have

said, I really don't want you in the church. But of course,

that's the reality right now.

What else he said would send right there, wouldn't

it?

Yes, absolutely. And so I said, I'd like you to come

and film in the church. And they did on a Sunday morning. And

they filmed both our services. On the one service that we

livestream, they, they were much more conservative with their

cameras, because they didn't want to be seen in the live

stream. In the next service that was not being a live stream.

They were certainly more visible around the sanctuary. They were

not interrupted, there was no noise. But certainly the

congregation was aware that something was taking place. So

in between services, when I met with me, people of the

congregation at our our normal coffee and get together time,

people would ask, and I shared with them, that this is an HBO

reality show that I am participating in, as an

affirming pastor. And because I'm affirming and serving a

church that is not 100% affirming. That's why they've

chosen to include me in this episode. Some people heard that

well, other people did not. And so controversy down the road

ensued, when people looked back to that day, and began claiming

that they were not informed well, that it was not explained

well. And what I found out is that there were those on the

crew that had a different answer to people in the church than my

answer. It was not meant to the skies, it was meant to truly

talk about what the whole role of the show was. And so many

people in the church that day heard, we're filming a reality

show about small communities. Although that is true. That was

not the full story. And so after that, there were some

challenges.

Let me ask you this a couple things here, just about

the context here, because this is the crux of the matter, kind

of what, while you're no longer in that church, and this is kind

of the, you know, where the rubber hit the road here. And

we'll we'll get to that. So that here in just Just a minute,

we're there folks filming your services who were in drag or

somehow extra, you know, a traffic it that way?

No, absolutely not. That that has been a

misconception that there were drag queens in the worship

service. And the misconception that I myself was preaching in

drag. That was never, there was never anything on the table of a

desire, and it certainly never took place. Okay.

And just to clarify, just because it's kind

of the moment you met with your staff, and you did not meet with

church board or staff, parish or anybody like that priorities. So

just to be clear about, you know, how these are some of the

areas where you could be kind of questioned or you know, your

decision making could be questioned, at least in this

whole process. So there, so the foot film crew came, it was a

bit of a surprise for, for some, at least, that this would happen

in this kind of lead to Fun, fun, fun after that. So, big

boy, so you know, it kind of came down in the local church,

and then I'm sure with your super district superintendent,

others, that this got people's attention. And then well, I'll

just unpack a little bit some of the some of the good stuff and

some of the rough stuff that happened in the local churches

setting because there had to be both.

Well, the good stuff and the local church with this

particular show that happened during the filming, was the fact

that the camera crew of the majority of which are members of

the gay community, many had not been in church in a very long

time or never been in a church, because they didn't feel

welcome. And I remember one of the camera crew, whose pronouns

are her. And she said, well, at least lightning hasn't struck me

down. And she was referring to the fact that she had come into

the church as a gay individual, and she had not been killed by

the Lord God. And they're, they're being in the midst of

the church folk, was a wonderful thing to see. And for them to

experience that another positive thing is that the sermon I

preached that day and I did not change the sermon for the

episode. I planned my messages out three months in advance and

I continued with that, in this message, oh, there was talk of

unconditional love. One of the assistant producers that talked

to me afterwards and simply said, you know, that that

message you talked about unconditional love I, I really

liked that. I really liked that. They never heard that before.

And kind of referred to it as if it's something I came up with on

my own. And I clarified that for them. So that was a really neat

moment. The challenges really are our challenges that came

after the episode was aired. So in between the filming and

episode airing, all that took place in between at that time,

was that I did go to my supervisor, superintendent, and

I did go to my personnel leadership, and let them know of

my participation at that time. It was after the fact

just to get a little context or I'm sorry,

great little context. It was filmed in like summertime July

of 21, an area like November 21, over the Fourth of July 4 of

July weekend of 22 2021 in the aired in November of 21. So

there was some significant timeframe between right yes,

very much. I made them aware that I participated.

And once I made them aware and met with my supervisor and the

bishop, an executive assistant, they made it clear that I should

go ahead as my personnel Team tab Paris had asked me to, and

send a letter to the entire congregation, sharing my

participation, and apologizing for any trust for trust that was

broken. Because trust had been broken among some I did send out

that letter. And once the letter was sent out there, of course, a

lot more questions. Because truth be told that July 4 Sunday

when they found was very low attendance, as it is in most of

our churches. And I knew that and so people as they found out,

were feeling duped, feeling betrayed. And that's where the

the terms of secrecy came out, and so on and so forth. The

rough time really came not so much in those moments, because I

was answering their question, I was meeting with groups in the

church to explain and to give them a chance to air, their

concerns, anger, or what they're feeling. When the episode

finally was aired on November the eighth, that very next week

was not a challenge. There was only one article in the local

newspaper. And the church was doing fine. Please know that all

during this time, after that Fourth of July, when they were

in the service. I didn't preach about the show, I didn't talk

about the show I really didn't feel I had permission to. And so

that was never addressed. Once the show aired, the second week

after the show aired is really when things began to break

apart. Unfortunately, it was during that time that a member

of the congregation who had previously been so supportive,

changed and decided not to be supportive, when they saw me

dressed in drag, even though that was mentioned in the

letter, even though I was spoken about the fact that was a part

of the experience. That was enough to anger this person.

They started sending out emails to many people becoming angry,

that snowballed into some other folks in the church jumping on

that experience. And between the the anger, aggravation, the

nastiness I would say and and the criticism not just of me,

but of the LGBTQ community. And and my motivation being taken

out of context. It was a very painful, painful time. And it

was at that time, I went to my supervisor for help to say, I

cannot lead this church right now. Because I've lost that

ability.

And all this came down in a relatively short

order. I say the if I'm were call here correctly, Craig, the

program aired on November the eighth and by the end of

November, this all came down and you were you were no longer in

the pulpit? Is that is

that that is correct. My last sermon was

November the 15th. I didn't know it's gonna be my last sermon.

That was after November the 15th, that the emails were

generated. And an air of a letter going out to our

preschool parents to make an announcement that had not yet

been cleared or even shared, went out. And so there was quite

an upheaval, of challenge and confusion during that time. And

I was supported by my DS in that he agreed I should step away for

my own mental health. And I made that clear at that point in

time. It was not until two weeks after the 15th that an official

letter came out from my superintendent, sharing with a

church that I was being relieved of my pastoral duties due to my

mental health. It also shared and I think this is important

bread for a lot of people to understand it also shared that I

had done nothing that is a chargeable offense in regards to

our denomination, I had done nothing that was morally wrong.

I had simply found myself in the midst of a very large

disagreement with people that were very angry. And to that

end, I needed to step back, that that letter was designed to let

the church know that I was still in good standing, that I was

being removed from that congregation. And that during

that time, I was to, you know, not be involved with the church

as,

like you made some important points there in terms

of, you know, what we're talking about here, Craig, bigger, we

got what happened, you and kind of the micro, but the macro was

what's going on the whole United Methodist Church, how we handle

situations such as this. And so let me just, you mentioned you

were not brought up with any charges, you are not accused of

any, you know, moral failing or anything along that line. You

did not to go against the discipline, as far as I know,

and, and anything like that. And yet, you found yourself in this

circumstance, you mentioned about the superintendent

supporting you. How do you think things were, you know, we talked

about how things were handled in the local church setting, which

was rough. How do you think things were handled from the

conference in superintendency? In the bishop and cabinet, so

on, how do you? How do you feel about it?

Well, I certainly felt supported. And what I mean

by that is not supported in what I did decide to participate in.

But I felt supported in my role as pastor. And, and I felt

supported in that. They, they believe that what I did, they

understood. And in principle, there was some not all, but

there was some agreement with and they were, they were willing

to be there for me, and especially before the show aired

during those months, when, when the cabinet was made aware of

this experience. There was no admonition, you know, placed

upon me No, no structure strictures of any kind, I was

able to continue in my ministry, and everything was moving along

in a very normal and good way. So I felt I was never felt

isolated. That was the word I would use. Once the show aired,

and the problem happened. And they started to deal with it. I

was certainly sympathetic with the role that my leaders had to

play, they received a lot of criticism, once it made public

news that I was relieved from my duties in the church, and I

appreciated them willing to take the hit, if you will, and

criticism during that time, without coming back to me, and

and adding any more salt to the injury.

So just to be clear, then you were not

punished as such, you were not, you know, removed against your

will, from the church. Anything along this line, this was a kind

of between a rock and a hard place situation, as far as I can

tell. And by being fair here, Craig. Okay, I just want to make

sure that that kind of context here. And yet you've put in a

very difficult circumstance, you had to leave the church and

admit, with no appointment just to use our in our United

Methodist vernacular, it you were, I'm not even sure how what

your official status was, but you are certainly no longer

appointed to that local church, or whatever the circumstances,

but you had a reduction in salary. And you've kind of

lifted Limbo in a way in terms of our appointment system goes

is, so what let me just ask you, what is your official status as

we speak right now? And in the end of end of January of 2022?

And I have to answer honestly, today, I don't know.

So that's part of the issue. That's part of the

issue that we we are a lot of our church stuff is in limbo

right now, as we do with difficult circumstances. But

please say more. Yes.

Yeah. Normally, during a time like this, the

status would be either still appointed to the church but not

serving. It could be a voluntary leave of absence, or an

involuntary leave of absence, neither of which are applying in

this circumstance. And so that's a question I still need to ask

and, and I it's really ironic that I don't know that I have

not asked that lately, because in the early weeks, please no,

there was a lot of, of stuff within me. I had to deal with

emotion. situationally, and so those were questions that

weren't even formulated for me now I'm I'm, I'm two months into

this. And nearing the end of the time when I'm allowed to stay in

the parsonage which is the church home. And I find myself

now needing to ask that question. What is my current

status? I can say? For sure certain They have made it clear

I am still a pastor in good standing. I am a pointable. And

so those things certainly do apply. But I currently I don't

have I shouldn't say that there is I'm sure an official status

I've not been made aware of what that is?

Well, that's part of the deal. It's got to be, you

know, we I think, I think the circumstances, grn are have

happened in the past, but not quite as much as I'm aware of at

least, but I think they're going to be more and more, you know,

and sometimes people have been brought up on charges. You know,

in our discipline we had, when it comes to matters of human

sexuality, we all are aware and I met the church about the

controversies regarding the discipline, disciplinary

statements regarding the ordination of the same of

homosexual people LBGT up people and regarding marriage to same

sex people, is our crux of the matter we have here that's going

on in our church. And so in that matter, our did you come into

this within the church to kind of be a troublemaker to kind of

instigate stuff to try to pick out the depict? I'm just asking

you here, because I think these are questions that are going to

our asking here are, were you trying to instigate a response

here among the church? Or whatever they are? Were you

motivated to somebody come to you and say, Hey, you be our

point guy here. Anything along that line? Anything politically

related? So?

Yeah, not intentionally, at what I would

say that to be truthful about myself is that it's pretty much

second nature for me to jump in, for sure. That's, that's, I'm a

person that jumps in with both feet, and then works out some of

the pieces after the fact, in many situations, in this

experience. I think the question is also, you know, was I aware

is going to create this much controversy? No, I was aware,

there'd be some challenges clearly, and that not everyone

would be happy with it. No, it would it be for me in ministry,

to have intentionally moved in this direction to be a catalyst

of change at this level. That to me would really be

inappropriate. I'm certainly capable of doing things in

churches unconventionally to bring about light of an issue.

But in this particular case, honestly, this was a, a case

where I, I did jump in, and became involved in the

experience, looking for the positives in this. And the

positives, which I discovered a course was the information and

an awareness that I came into being immersed in the drag

culture, the the gay culture, and and I found it to be a

wonderful and accepting experience and wounds. And but I

will be honest about when when things do happen to this, I

don't, I don't back away meaning although I ended up stepping

away from the church because things have gotten so

emotionally challenging and difficult. My original words to

my personnel team in the church. Were simply these I said, please

allow me to stay here and lead this congregation through this

challenge. I'm aware it's made a hardship, I aware that there's

anger and frustration. But please allow me to lead you

through this hardship and for the congregation to get an

example of a pastor that leads through conflict. They agreed to

that, until the nastiness through the email the

conversations, folks that wrote to the pastor perish with with

air concerns, until that they were planning to allow me to

stay and do just that lead them through but I lost that.

And the leadership piece, Craig has to do with how

we are spiritual leaders of a congregation a community of

faith, and then also be a be impactful into the our

neighborhood, our neighbors, our community. So it kind of begs

the question, and we're gonna go here to some biblical and

theological stuff, you're here now. And, you know, there are

those who say, Okay, well, what biblical basis are you doing

this? You know, what would Jesus do in this situation? How are

you going to lead people through this spiritually, when some

people do not buy that this is valid, theologically or

spiritually, biblically. Speak to that a little bit?

Yeah. Well, theologically, I mean, what I've

come to understand is that Jesus was one of the most radical

persons ever to exist on the planet. And Jesus made it very

clear that love was an experience for all people. No

strings attached. No question. What by his example, Jesus led

by spending time with all walks of people, but certainly the

stories in the Gospel that are lifted up the most are the ones

where Jesus spent time with people that were not accepted. I

think that's an important thing to look at from a biblical

scholarly point of view. Because if if the gospels were written,

as some people have have claimed that the Gospels are fiction,

they were just written by people for their own desire. Well, if

that were the case, and they were trying to, to lift up a

positive experience of themselves, they would not have

included any of those experiences, because that would

have put them in harm's way which it did. Every one of

Jesus's followers save one were martyred physically. And one was

certainly isolated on an island by himself. And and so when they

incorporated these stories, it becomes clear that what they

wanted us to understand is that Jesus was altogether different.

And that his intense intent as a rabbi, as a believer, as one who

knew the scriptures, as one who taught others the scriptures was

saying, it's not working the way that you're doing, that the God

that I am with and the God that I represent my mother, my

father, loves all people. This is how you love you hold the

hand of the leper. You forgive the adulterer, you have a meal

with the embezzler. You spend time with the unwed mother. And

and in so doing and welcoming children in the midst of an

adult confrontation, you are setting an example of the

antithesis of society of that time, which is male dominated,

power dominated and rural dominated. Jesus comes in to

say, oh, no, no, no, no, you have that wrong. And and his

course end result is death upon the cross, although it was was

his giving his life it was also the result of people so angry at

what he had done to the status quo, that they came after him

now, what I can identify with is never his crucifixion. I've

never been crucified. I don't feel like I've been crucified.

But I can identify with the incredible depth of anger, that

people of faith are able to dish out when they believe that their

theology is threatened. And I will certainly say that in this

experience, by unabashed sharing, that God loves all

people, that that drag is a reality and that gay persons are

welcomed as they are, they do not need to change that

threatened many persons theologies. And when that Bible

is threatened, and they're unwilling to change or even have

discussions, it's already too late. And so I find myself

succumbing to that reality. So

how, how dare you say that Jesus loved all people,

my God, man, you all about now? And I guess, what do you all

about? So you know that I think that's the reality that we're

dealing with here now is that you mentioned just in what you

share there, you know, several biblical passages on scenarios

that Jesus was involved with. And so let's just let's

extrapolate out this little bit here. What do you think Jesus

would do if he was dropping into a situation you found yourself?

I think he would handle it even better. I think

that Jesus would have been able which I wasn't able to, at that

time, Jesus would have been able to, to go to those who were the

most angry, the most hateful, the most critical, Jesus would

be able to still go to them, and be with them and and not only

forgive them, but to invite them to a path of reconciliation,

and, and create a hope for that. That was something I was unable

to do my own hurt, feelings of heart and spirit. My own human,

very very fleshy anger and aggravation prevented me from

being able to take that step. I also think Jesus would have been

harsher in some areas. I think that when, when I first shared

with our personnel, team and staff parish, about what I've

been involved in, and they were upset and wanted a letter sent

and so on, so far, I think Jesus would have come back at them and

saying, Why on earth are you going to do have this person

send out a letter and apologize? When when really what this

person has done is offer love. Really what this person has done

is put themselves in someone else's literal shoes and put

themselves in somebody else's circumstance because Jesus tells

us when you're confronted with such things, you don't just give

What what you, you don't just give what you're able to give

you give more. And I think that would have been a challenge at

that point, and certainly a challenge to the church, to say

if you're angry about the inclusion of people different

than yourself, then you're not the church. Wow. And Jesus had a

lot about the lukewarm and that

kind of word there and, and done by golly, it just

sounds darn accurate to me. It sounds biblical. But let's, you

know, a part of what we're talking about here is not only

the dynamic in the church, and God loves the people in the

church. But God believes or you believe, and I believe they got

also loves your Rica and the other folks that you worked with

in the LGBTQ community and your daughter, and others. You know,

many people listen to this, clergy, families of folks LGBTQ

and so one, let's talk a little bit about the opportunity here

and about opportunity to last in some cases for the church, to

connect with people who are sometimes called the other, you

know, just different than what the norm would be expected to be

in your particular case here. Tell me what you learned about

how many people in LBGTQ community feel excluded from the

church, or feel far from God, and feel, feel ostracized in

some ways? And what are some ways we might go to start to

bridge some of this?

Okay. I would certainly say what I learned is

that there's incredible consistency in the stories of

rejection from the LGBTQ community, and primarily

rejection from faith and from church. And in the midst of that

rejection, they still are welcoming of me, intrigued to

talk about faith, and consistently shared different

voices sharing, that they still had a love of God, a love of

higher power, they still were spiritual people, but they just

realized they could not be included in institutional or

organized religion. The stories of hurt, rejection, and pain

were almost unbearable. And they weren't told to me all at once.

These were these were a camera person put their camera down for

a moment say Can I just tell you something? A makeup artist that

in the midst of putting makeup on my face would say, Well, you

know, I was I was homeless for a while as a kid in foster homes

and on on on the stories just just became a reality therapy

reffed of love. I gained a street cred is what I call it.

When I put on a dress. I had no idea what street cred. So as

much as there has been admonishment from from some

people of faith, there has been incredible blessing upon me from

from others in the LGBTQ community. And it's not just

that I have, quote, unquote, taken their side. What they have

communicated to me is that I have street cred because they

have never encountered a pastor willing to go that distance in

order to understand communicate, and to be with them. So the

opportunities that that can be lost, I'm hoping to capitalize

on so for example, you had talked in early on in the show

that their blessing? Well, yes, they were an individual from the

congregation started to go fund me for my family. Now, let's

keep in mind that Linda, and I've been in ministry 34 years,

we've never had anything like this needed or done for us on

our behalf. And in a period of just four days, a GoFundMe

raised just shy of $60,000. It came from 1400 different people,

the majority of those people giving 510 and $20, very few

large gifts. And out of those 1400, at least 140 of them left

personal messages in the GoFundMe account of

encouragement, of support. And being a part of the team. It was

overwhelmingly positive. And it was incredible. So to that end,

I've started a online faith community, which currently has

just shy of 150 participants. I've also started a podcast, not

not quite as sophisticated as yours at this point. But I have

just done three podcast. It's called dream catchers. And from

that we've been able to have people that follow up asking

about the scriptures I reference sharing the most powerful things

is they they're so excited to listen to this with their

sibling who's gay. They're thankful to be able to sit there

with their son or their daughter and listen to that experience.

It's amazing what that medium has has been gun to do. In other

words, what I've discovered is that just like the show's title,

we're here, there are people that are hurting in the gay

community everywhere. And in our communities of faith. There are

numbers upon numbers of people that may not be gay themselves,

him or herself, but certainly have siblings and friends and

others. I have 27 pages of affirmations and stories from

people. Throughout this experience, as well as I have

people continuing to connect with me some from my former

churches, sharing their story, one will only one that I'll

share. And that's from a gentleman who contacted me, and

reminded me that I did the wedding for he and his wife

nearly 30 years ago. And he felt that he was able to finally tell

me that the marriage lasted 13 years, until he came out as a

gay man, and is now married to his partner, his husband, and is

not only happy content, but still keeps in good relationship

with a mother of his children. These are the kinds of stories

that I continue to receive. And they're feeling permission to

talk about them in a faith context, for some in the very

first time in their lives.

So great opportunity here and opportunity

lost as well for further for the church. Because these, these are

people who matter to God, they do. And therefore they should

matter to the church if the church is an embodiment of

loving of all people. So I want to ask you one or two more

things, and I'll let you go what's next for you. You've

mentioned a couple things here. I know God has planned some

things in your heart and is also let's talk about the opportunity

to maybe before you're you've got a new platform, you've got a

new audience that is out there, as one audience may be

diminishing or changing. There may be some new opportunities

here. So tell me a little bit about what's next for you.

Locally, what's next is an event in March, that the

pride community is holding as a fundraiser for the pride board,

to raise funds that will one support a new inclusive

community of faith, to provide scholarships and financial aid

to people from the LGBTQ community that have no other

support, or they'd have been rejected from their families.

Very excited about that. The event will also include the

reigning Miss Gay America, which is a national person who will be

coming and performing. Here's the really cool thing for me, as

I've been talking, as recently as this weekend, to a group of

both allies and members of the LGBTQ community, and bridging

that gap now spiritually. So as I began to lift up the

possibility of an inclusive community of faith, there has

been excitement generated, there has been support generated. And

so to that end, on this after this March 5 experience, we'll

be announcing the first gathering of our inclusive

community of faith place yet to be determined. But right now

we're looking at it taking place in one of the local breweries

and bars, where people feel much more comfortable to come and

gather together and share their stories of life of faith and

sacrament. And that's what it's going to become. So I'm really

excited about that and really pumped up. In addition to that,

what's next is that we, we are still uncertain of where we're

going to be living next. And so we're in the process of doing a

couple things, both looking at homes, but also waiting for

information in regards to a next appointment as an elder in

United Methodist Church. And then thirdly, keeping in contact

with the wonderful friends that I met at HBO Max, we're here has

been approved for a third season, I've been able to keep

in contact with Eureka, my drag mother, and receiving her

support through this experience. And continuing that conversation

as to what may happen next. I know another piece will be a

faith based camp for middle school and high school kids that

is fully inclusive. We're already looking at that in July

for Indiana, and we're looking for that we're not I don't know

the date yet. But at a camp in Illinois, there is a real need

for young people that are dealing with the reality of

their sexual identity that is not heterosexual to be able to

go to camp and be in a safe, faith based environment where

they hear the reality of God's love and get a chance to ask

really hard and tough questions. And we look forward to being

involved in that experience. And so those are the things that

keep my brain going keep me up at night. And also get me

thinking about what

so it's not like your life ended did it you

didn't end when all this came down and you know, in some ways

Yeah. Some ways you No opportunities were some

opportunities may have closed or altered for you and you know,

opportunities have come in. That's a good thing. And,

Leslie, I want to leave with this kind of thought or this one

last emphasis because I really like to try to, you know, we've

talked about some really tough stuff here today. But, you know,

I also like to kind of leave on an encouraging note if I can,

and that is with with this, let's just say that there is

that person. Maybe it's United Methodist clergy person, maybe

it's the United Methodist, Methodist lay person, or a,

someone related to that maybe it's someone who is LGBTQ

themselves, but has not come out with that. Or maybe they have a

son or daughter or a sister, or a mother or dad, or some in

their life or a friend, or somebody in the choir, or

somebody the youth group, who they how do I handle this? How

do I do this? How can we be men and women, young people of

faith? And given all the pressures in our world right now

and just particular to this particular issue, which is so

pertinent our United Methodist Church, as we know someone's

going to come down this year on this whole matter? Really? But

what encouraging word would you get to that United Methodist

person because as the United Methodist people podcast about

how, what is a step forward? What's an encouraging word of

that person?

The step forward continues to be dialogue and

conversation, not debate and controversy. I would say to all

of those folks, you're not alone, you're not alone and

questioning how is this going to work? And you're not alone in

saying, Is there a place for me, there are plenty of resources

that are beginning to be available more and more, you

won't find them in Christian curriculum. But I would look for

those local communities that have a pride board, or an LGBTQ

place. And if not, as I tell on my broadcast, I always give out

my email, they can contact me at Craig do craig.duke@gmail.com.

And I'll get them to the resources that they need.

Another good resource is the reconciliation ministries. That

is a national experience. And several churches have become

reconciling churches, which means they're not only

affirming, but they're hoping to reconcile, bring together, those

who are trying to understand the gay community, those who may be

against it, those that may be in the midst of it, as Brad just

said, and bring them together for a time of reconciliation and

hope. The church continues to be a place of hope. I continue to

be a person of hope. I serve the God of hope. And and I would

say, don't lose your hope. Don't despair. Because although it's

challenging to talk about those issues, that we don't yet feel

comfortable. It is only through that conversation and

relationship, as Jesus taught us relationship with one another,

will we be able to go any further together. So I encourage

you to continue to talk and converse and pray and have faith

that God will deliver us from whatever our situation is going

well. So thank you for that. And I just want to say

to you that, from my perspective, as your colleague

and friend, that I just really commend you for taking a stand

for the gospel, even in the midst of some really difficult

circumstances. And to put yourself out there, you know, it

sounds a little bit like Jesus and Matthew and some of the tax

collectors and so on. And maybe a little bit Wesleyan about

being in the bars and pubs and things like that. It just sounds

like there's some opportunities there. And I know it's kind of

personal for me, because I know some of the folks you're

involved with your church you serve as a church, I have a very

close connection with and and know that there's opportunities

here and for mission ministry, but we have to choose to work

through it. And I love what you said about being in conversation

and comment here. That's our purpose here of the United

Methodist people podcast to navigate a way forward with

conversation and commentary, and to have a positive spin on

everything that we're doing. So thank you, Craig, appreciate

your being out there, my man and being out there. So thank you so

much.

Well, thank you for the opportunity to have

conversation today. And to be able to share I appreciate that.

All right.

Well, you've heard Craig Duke and we'll put

Reverend Craig Duke, we'll put connections to everything that

he's about his email and the various organizations that he's

talked about here on our website, United Methodist

podcast.com. Our show notes there, and we appreciate you

being with us today. Good people on the United Methodist people

podcast with Reverend Dr. Brad Miller.