Today I was joined by professional speaker and storyteller, Joe Mull. This conversation was full of wisdom and wit as Joe shared about his experience of being a social chameleon and learning the moments where it’s more important to give up being liked in order to do the right thing. This ties into his work as a “leadership nerd” (his words) where he helps teams give up their team drama and put in the work to learn how to have healthy confrontation (which, as it turns out, is much easier to deal with than the drama that emerges when we don’t nip things in the bud). He talks about offering the benefit of the doubt and the power of leaning into the discomfort of confrontation. Whether you’re dealing with drama in the workplace or at home, Joe is full of spot-on advice that you’re going to love.

About the Guest: 

Joe Mull speaks and writes about commitment in the workplace. He is the host of the popular BOSS BETTER NOW podcast and author of the book No More Team Drama: Ending the Gossip, Cliques, & Other Crap that Damage Workplace Teams. He is a father of 3, a Disney fan, and is woken up every morning by a needy but loving Dalmatian named Flash.

Connect with Joe and learn more:

bossbetternow.com to subscribe to email or podcast

Instagram @joemull77

About the Host: 

Friends! Here's a somewhat stuffy bio of me:   

I am an author, professional speaker, coach, host, and entrepreneur. My first book, Leading Imperfectly: The value of being authentic for leaders, professionals, and human beings, is available wherever people buy books. I speak internationally to willing and unwilling attendees about authenticity, vulnerability, and leadership. My clients include American Express, General Electric (GE), Accenture, Yale University, The Ohio State University, and many others. As a speaker, I am doing the two things I loves the most: making people think and making people laugh! 

I host my own events multiple times a year. They are 2-day events called Living Imperfectly Live (and sometimes they are 1-day virtual events). They are a space where humans from every walk of life can come together to be part of a community on the pursuit of badassery. The goal is to help attendees start living the life we say we want to live. 

Alas, you're here because of an idea I had a number of years ago and didn't think I was good enough to pull it off. I finally acted on it and alas Diner Talks with James was born! As you can see from what I do in my professional life, Diner Talks is alligned with everything I believe in and teach.  If this wasn't dry enough, and you would like to know more info about my speaking, events, or coaching feel free to check out my website: JamesTRobo.com.

Let’s Be Friends on Social Media!

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jamestrobo

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jamestrobo

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamesrobilotta/

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/JamesRobilottaCSP

Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/JamesTRobo

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Welcome to diner talks with James. slide into the booth and let's have conversations we never want to end with friends. We never want to leave over food we probably shouldn't be.

My friends welcome to another episode of diner talks with James. I'm James and I'm pumped to be here kickin it with y'all. How you doing today, my friends. I was just down south this past weekend. And I got to meet people from Waffle House like they were at. They were like, show and talk about internships and job opportunities and stuff like that. And I went up to the booth and I fan girl hard, y'all. We got a great conversation I told about the podcast, they gave me an email address to reach out to to tell them about the podcast. I have no idea what comes from that. Even if it's a free waffle, it will have been worth it. But I'm just want to let you know that's how committed I am to diners, y'all, we out here. Just think I made them a little bit nervous. I want you really into this. But anyway, friends, I'm excited that you're here and kickin it with us. I'm excited for you also to meet who I got coming out and just a hot second my man Joe Mull, Pittsburgh native holding it down with a black and yellow, black and yellow, black and yellow, black and yellow. He is because he has become a very dear friend of mine. And I look up to him in many ways. I'm just excited for you all to get to kick it with him and hear His grace and his brilliance and his and his great jokes. Now he's, he's a speaker, he writes about commitment in the workplace. He's the host of the popular boss better now podcast, he also wrote a book called No More team drama, that's team with an M not teen drama, because that book would have done better than his book no more teen drama. But anyway, no more team drama, ending the gossip cliques and other crap that damage workplace teams. He's a father of three, I've met all three of them. And I like all three of them. He's a huge Disney fan and is woken up every morning by a needy but loving donation Flash. Flash is quite the ball of energy and quite the poach. I'm excited to bring out right now my man, Joe, Mull.

James, my friend, I'm so excited to be here with you. Thank you for having

me work with the diner man. Thanks for squeaking into the booth.

Listen, I have watched you have such an impressive array of guests on this show. And now that I am here, it is clear that this program has taken a huge step back. So I'm sorry that you've had to kind of reach deep into the well to for me, but I'm just excited to brag that I'm in the company of the others who have been here. Thanks for having me and

go do the little things we do for each other. I love it, man. Thank you so much for for hanging out with me, Joe, it's been, you know, you and I have known each other now for only about two years, maybe two years. And, and so I'm slowly getting to know you had the opportunity to come out and stay with your family and the just outside of Pittsburgh. And it's just been such a joy brother such a joy. I'm excited that that this friendship has happened to my life.

Oh man, likewise, you know, when you meet somebody, and you can just kind of instantly connect with who they are at their core and with their personality, their sense of humor and their energy. And, you know, I think our mutual friends, Christina and Tammy are the ones who connected us, you know, shared friends in the speaking world. And they were kind of like how do you all not know each other and then boom, we found ourselves in a storytelling group together and the bromance began,

the bromance began we found out just how deep the rabbit hole goes with how our paths have aligned as well. But Joe, this show is called the diner talks, we can get to all that stuff later. But this show is called diner talks. And so I need to know brother I need to know you know, this past weekend I was down in Atlanta and I got an extra opportunities you heard I got to meet with some wildflower folks and then I naturally went to a waffle house as well as the all star specials always calling my name. And but I'm wondering for you do you have or maybe in your past life had a late night guilty pleasure moves or a spot that you'd like to go to? Is there a typical order for you?

Gotcha. Well, first of all Waffle House is a required stop if I'm going to a town that has one because in western Pennsylvania there's one it's a bit of a haul for me to get there. So my wife and I for years when we would travel we were driving to the to the beach for the summer or something like that or like to her summer vacation. We see a waffle house we are pulling over right I am a scattered, smothered and covered brother. Oh, that's I am we are Waffle House devotees. So I would have been fanboying out probably just as much as you did. So I completely get that. In terms of the late night order, though, I'm much more a like stay at home late nights snacker and spend a lot of years as quite the ice cream connoisseur and I'm going to tell you why. After years of experimentation and study, is the single greatest pint of ice cream you can get your hands on. It is Ben and Jerry's salted caramel core. They've got these, like facinated got this core combo that goes right down the center. And it's got, like these little pieces of you know, like those Biscoff cookies you get on Delta Airlines. Oh, yeah, sure. Sure. Right. So so they've got little pieces of like that sort of thing in there. It'll change your life, if you can get your hands on a Ben and Jerry's salted caramel core. And I made some changes a few years ago with kinds of the food I'm eating and trying to be a little bit healthier. And so that is a rare treat now late at night, but for a time. That was the go to

that was a regular tree. There. Sure. Yeah.

Part of the problem, though to regular.

So here's the thing. I am also a bit of an ice cream connoisseur. I am also a lover of Ben and Jerry's. Yes. Have you been up to this spot in Vermont? Have you been

no, no. What's it? Yeah, so you've been there? Yep.

You got it. Yeah, you got to put it on your list is just outside of Burlington, Vermont. It's great. You get to go and you get to try and try ice creams. You get to watch how it's made. And then you get to eat more ice cream. So it's really a great trip. I go, that's my

Yeah, that to me feels like telling an alcoholic that he should go to this great bar. I'm not sure that's the smartest move for me, as I'm trying to stay committed and disciplined around some of this. But But I'm a buyer of the company and they do great. They do great stuff. What's your go to Ben and Jerry's?

So I also am big fan of the cores. I've had the product that you shared. It is delicious. I'm a peanut butter fudge core guy though.

It's a good move. I can't push back now that's up there.

I can't push back.

What am I gonna say to that? No. Okay, respect. You know,

here's here's a disappointing fact that I learned the other day that I don't think I ever really just paid attention to Tina is a big fan of Haagen Dazs has this like white chocolate chip raspberry thing or whatever? Truffle thing? It's very good. Yeah. And so So I went and picked us up both some ice cream because it was just like, You know what, it's been a hard week we get an ice cream. And and I held both of them in my hand. And I would say that Ben and Jerry's one is disappointingly heavier. They are both a pint of ice cream. But not all pints are created equal. It's incredible. I was like, oh, no, that's probably bad. That's probably the weight of butter. I don't know what that is. But yeah.

Now, some folks might have actually been excited about that and been like, look, I'm getting so much more value for my dollar here. I'm fully committed to the ice cream experience. And the proof is in the amount of effort I have to put into lifting up the pint. Exactly. You took it the other way. It was like a danger signal.

Yeah, yeah, shame. I'll do that

I love it, brother. I love it. Well, that's fair. I'm glad fellow ice cream lover in in the diner here. That's that's great, dude. So now you're Are you are born and raised in western Pennsylvania. Correct.

I was raised in Pennsylvania, first in central Pennsylvania up until about 12 years old. Okay. Then when my parents split my both sides of my family had go back a couple generations in Pittsburgh. So well, my parents split around 12 We moved back to Western Pennsylvania. And so I grew up outside of Pittsburgh in all of those kind of middle school and high school formative years. But I was actually born in Frankfurt, Germany. My dad was in the army. And my mom was over there with him. And I was in her belly. And so that meant I was over there too. And when the time came for me to make my entrance, I actually was born on the army base in Frankfurt, Germany, which was not planned and not supposed to be allowed. But that is a thing that happened because when when mom went into labor dad was like, we're doing this here. And that's all there is to it. And so yeah, so I was born in Frankfurt, Germany, and I think they brought me home back here to the States when I was like nine months old. Yeah, but yeah, I spent most of the rest of the formative years in PA

Wow, no, does that mean I don't know how this works. Does that mean you could apply for German citizenship or was on an army base?

Well, I still here's what my understanding of it is. So I this I have no accuracy to it whatsoever. So you know, people listening if you take this as gospel, like do a Google search. But my understanding of it is that I had a right to claim dual citizenship until I was 18. And then, after 18, if I wanted to continue with German citizenship, I would have had to declare it. And I don't know that I would have been allowed to maintain dual citizenship. But I, the only thing that's different for me is that my birth certificate actually says certificate of us Birth Abroad. Hmm. Fascinating. Yeah. I was always the kid in social studies class, they were like, Wait, does that mean you can be president? Yep. And I was like, Oh,

we're thinking of it. Yeah, no, my

understanding is that, that I can, yeah, that because I was a US citizen. To US parents born abroad, that I would still qualify, I don't think you actually have to be born on us land. As long as you have that US citizenship here. Again, not an expert. Check out the Google for more information.

Well, when you run for president don't all that stuff will get drugged up, and it'll be a hot mess for you. And you know, good luck with that part of it. I believe, though, Joe, I believe that you're a citizen.

Thank you. I will get you my long form birth certificate if you need it at some point.

This is the start of your campaign, right.

I'm here to make a special announcement.

Yeah. 2020 44. Here we go.

Do you ever have it? Would you ever have a desire to do that? Because not in a million years? Would I ever have a desire to do that? Like I'm politically involved? And I care about a lot of that stuff. But the idea of actually trying to vie for public office in that way like, No, I just I couldn't imagine doing it.

There is part of me that is intrigued by it. I think the opportunity to make impact I think I would get really frustrated at the game. Yeah. And I think it would be getting increasingly disappointed at the game.

Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yes. And I I have, I am both not self confident enough. And I don't have the temperament for it. I would be too easily stung. By all of the people who said horrible things about me who had never met me, I'd be like, but you don't even know me. And then it would I would just turn to rage or something really unhealthy. And I would I would be the guy who's clip went viral because he said something horrible. Somebody in the audience

know thyself know.

He strings swear words together like a pro.

tapestry.

That's awesome.

Yeah, that's a Christmas Story callback, by the way. That's awesome. Yeah.

Not every jokes for everybody. Joe.

was for me, though. I appreciate it.

You're right. Yeah, I think it's, I think it kind of goes back to the same thing is why why I enjoy being self employed. Right? Like, I think I think I'm just better at being self employed than I am better at being having a boss. And so I think it goes back to something it would strike a similar nerve to me.

Yeah, yeah. I remember, someone told me when I started my business, that the beauty of being self employed, is not only do you get to decide what you want to do, and when you want to do it, you get to decide who you do it with. And that has proven to be probably the most valuable aspect of being self employed. Because, you know, like, one of the core values that we serve in my business was joy. And we we have turned away business just because we learned quickly that, you know, the folks we were working with, weren't, weren't bringing the joy. And so, you know, life is too short to be miserable at work. Yeah, it's a big part of what actually what I ended up talking about on stages, but it's a core part of how I like to operate to and I think if you try to go into elected office, you got to represent everybody, and there's a whole lot of not joy in that.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, I agree with you, my dad, my dad is convinced that I will run for something one day, which is really, yeah, he thinks he thinks that. Well.

I could totally see that though. Yeah.

Yeah, we'll see. I mean, at some point in time, I mean, I'm not I'm not completely opposed to it. I just not, I'm not there yet. I think there's also a huge part of it's like, well, I didn't go to law school, and I didn't go here. I think I'm also like, do it or do it right or not do it at all kind of guys. So I probably would just be like, Oh, it's so nice that I'm helping to run this small town. I'd be like, I need to run the biggest city. That's kind of the way I go right. Um, yeah. It's a sad it's a sad but true fact about me that, you know, I'm working on discovering what enough means in my own life.

But I feel like now that you've mentioned this on the podcast, then now you can be recruited, like there's some mid to large sized cities who would really been fit from somebody like you at the helm. So like Portland give my man a call here because he can help. All right. So go online, check him out and then start to like a grassroots campaign to recruit James to come to your city like Charleston South Carolina. Where are you at? You know, like this is the guy

get you a James?

That's right. I was calling James.

Exactly, exactly. Yeah, maybe we'll start with Dennison so so Joe born of a born in Frankfort raised in Central PA, what what was the what was the Young Joe? Mo? Like? What? What What were you interested in? What were some of your passions? What did you want to be when you grew

up? Oh, man. The two words that springs to mind. When I was young, I was small and smart. I liked school. I liked learning. I liked my teachers, I didn't mind doing homework. Like for a lot of years, that was just who I was. And, like small and smart is a pretty lethal combination in the 80s when there's no anti bullying programs to help kids not be cruel. And so I had a hard time actually. And so my favorite pastimes in my formative years, were evading ridicule. And trying not to get made fun of right, you know, I ended up though kind of finding a home, in the arts in music and theater. And I think where a lot of kids end up right, who maybe are looking for a way to be themselves and to connect. And it ended up leading to me getting a degree in music, not to jump ahead a few years in your line of questioning there. But all those things are kind of tied together. But that that that's what I think of when asked about those formative years.

Yeah. Yeah. The we're what Were you bullied for? I mean, obviously, bullies don't necessarily need a reason. But was it your size? Was your stature was it was because you were a nerd. All of the above? Like, what what did they pick on you for?

I think it was probably all of the above. I think that there are some kids who are I think I was probably a little awkward. I think I didn't, I wasn't comfortable in my own skin. And I think other kids pick up on that, you know, and I think that, you know, some kids just figure out that they get good attention when they make their peers laugh. And so they end up making their peers laugh at the expense of other kids. And so I think it was it was some of that. I remember, always feeling like I was getting made fun of because I didn't have the name brand clothes, like we didn't really have a lot of money growing up. And so I remember kids wearing Nikes and ocean Pacific shorts, and you know, I was wearing the off like a Kmart off brand stuff. And, you know, we'd go school shopping, and mom would have to put it on layaway and pay for it over months. And the stuff was just not the stuff that all the other kids were wearing. And you know, having a lot of like, Oh man, this is gonna go well, people are gonna give me crap about this. And you know, but like I never was. I never resented mom or for that, you know what I mean? Because I knew what her situation was. It was it wasn't it wasn't in line with what we could do at the time. But so yeah, I mean, not to get too heavy. But I think all that stuff kind of comes together to make school kind of miserable for some kids. And that was my story. Yeah.

Yeah, man, that's, that that's that's sucks. My parents weren't necessarily big name brand buyers either. But I wouldn't say that not because we didn't have the means. I just don't think that's that's not the way my mom raised and whatnot. So I'm not I'm not gonna say our situations were the same. But that's, you know, that's kind of the way my mom rolled, right? Like my couponer in this day, like still a couponer heavy Yeah. Yeah. And so yeah, and, but I'm wondering for some of those for some of those, that that bully period, like that's where we start to form our self esteem, right? Like, for me, I was I was a slightly larger kid. And I was always tall, and then in middle school, like my weight caught up to my height, and then I kind of just kept kept growing the same size all the way up. So I've always kind of just been this you know, a refrigerator of a man. And so, but that's, that's where a lot of my self esteem stuff came around my my own my weight, and whatnot. And that was exacerbated by my father a little bit and just passive aggressive comments that were made. Yeah, and stuff like that. And so a lot of that stuff sticks with Yeah, you know, I'm wondering for you, is there anything for you that's stuck like are there still like some of those inner demons? that you that you fight from that period?

Absolutely. You know, I'm very aware of probably giving too much credence to what other people think, or maybe more importantly, what other people might think, you know, I find myself having myself like this, there are several

back there. For my interview with Joe rose over personality

Her name is Stella, she's an 82 year old woman, and she revives back here behind my frontal lobe. You know, I think it's interesting, I see some good and some bad that has come of it, I've learned to be a kind of social chameleon, I have, I have learned how to kind of adjust my my style, my tone, my personality to kind of blend in to whatever the room dictates or whatever's happening in the group. And in some ways that served me really well, like I can go to a board meeting and a business dinner and really kind of a highfalutin, sophisticated place and absolutely be on par with everybody there. And then I can also go to whatever is the opposite of that, and hang to you know, and so, in terms of being able to like flex my style, and meet people where they are like that, that has been, I think a part of it. And on the other side, though, it's kind of this quest for your authentic self, that I think even into my 40s, now, I'm still figuring out, especially when you then go out into the world, and you build a brand around your name, and you get on stage and you, you start to build this kind of collective idea of the work you want to do. And people want to follow you and tune into you. And it's like, wow, if I don't come to this with authenticity, then then that is really selling both myself short. And the people who are, you know, spending their time trying to listen to what I might have to say. And so I better figure out what is my authentic voice? And when am I speaking in service to them versus, you know, being worried about what somebody might think or say, and that so that's a whole kind of ongoing wrestling match, you know?

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I was talking to a group of men at this conference that I went to this weekend, and I do, I do a program called men work in progress. And it's all about how this idea of we as men choose cool over great, and how that hurts us a lot of time as men, right? Yeah. And then so one of the questions that I asked in there is, you know, if you if you had to choose, would you rather be liked or respected? Hmm. And, and so for me, for me, I mean, first off, I think in life, you can be both right, but I'm making people choose because that's what I'm allowed to do. And you know, it is, I'm loving the microphone. No. But, but still, when I think about that, for myself, in relation to what you were just sharing is that I think the answer is respected. But all of my actions, the way I carry myself the way I ask the way I ask others the way I let them influence me, all of my actions point towards liked. Yes. And I don't always love that about myself, but I have a deep desire to be liked. I tend to get a lot of opinions from a lot of people who some who are great, and some have I don't need to be getting their opinions for before I make a move. Yeah. And so yeah, so I think there's there's a lot, there's a lot in there. For me, that's kind of similar. It sounds like to you, just the way that we let the moment or who's around us or I don't know, how will potentially be looked at influence our actual decision?

And I think that the answer to the question is like every other question, the answer is probably? Well, it depends. You know, I think there are some times when maybe the circumstances require you to be liked very quickly, in order to then be able to do the work that would lead somebody to respect you. From a speaking perspective, you know, we all know what all the data says about how quickly people form opinions of you when they look at you on stage and I need them to like me for in the first few seconds so that the rest of the rest of the thing we're going to do together here for the next 60 minutes is gonna work. Yep. And so there's a certain amount of stagecraft that comes with that. And that's intentionally choosing I think liked before respective and thinking of it more as I guess a process. What's interesting is, when you ask the question, what popped into my head is this kind of baseball boys club that exists in my community? So we've my son plays, Belle plays, plays soccer and baseball, and he loves both of them. And in our community, the baseball teams are run by this sort of entrenched group of guys who are kind of open listening. They're very clearly vicariously living the the ballplayer dream through their kids lives a little bit and it's a very To insular culture. But what I figured out very quickly is, if I'm not liked, then like the teams that my kid gets to be on, and the amount of playing time he gets suffers, and that sucks like that is that is just not the way it should be, and not the way that it should work. But that's the reality of it in this community. And so I've had to kind of play apart for a couple of years, went around some of these guys, and, you know, some of them drive me crazy. I've come home and said to my wife, like, oh, like, why do I care what these guys think they're the worst, you know. But it's in sort of service to to miles and knowing that, like, hey, he wants to try playing in the infield this year, and he's clearly got the chops to do it. And I don't want to be that dad, like, in the coaches, you're like, Hey, you got to play him in the infield, because that's not how it works, either. But there is clearly a certain amount of favoritism that gets played among some of those kids. And the team's gonna get put on based on the relationship the parents have with each other, and the coaches have with the parents. And so in that kind of circumstance, the answer is it depends. And, you know, like matters. Yeah,

yeah, that's the truth. And this is you use the term social chameleon. That's actually something I've called myself before. There's actually a piece of my book where I kind of talk about how is this You I wrote this book about authenticity and leadership and stuff like that? And I write about it be like, does that mean I'm not authentic? Right? Does that mean I'm like, as your real deep into some of that kind of stuff of like, yes, yes. Because I can play the game and I can change who I am. I mean, does that mean that I'm all of a sudden not authentic? And I think for me, it comes down to values, right? Like in those conversation with those, those other baseball fathers in your case, or baseball parents in your case, right? It's not that you're compromising your values or anything like that, right? It's not like, alright, let's all the guys are going in the outfield and doing lines of coke before the game. Right. All right, well, I got to do because Miles has got to play. Right. Like, it's not like that's what you're doing. Right? And so you're not compromising who you are at your core? Right? is fascinating. The ability to, to play in multiple arenas, like you can like I believe I can. And yeah, that question of going home and falling asleep of like, okay, am I am I still authentic? As I can do that?

Yeah, yeah. And here's the difference. So one of the coaches is famous for yelling at some of these kids. And he will, from time to time, say things like, you swing like a girl, he does this sort of gendered terminology. And it got to the point where I had to say something, and that's the difference for me is, you have to do both. Like, I couldn't lay my head on my pillow at night and watch him inject that into the minds of these kids. And the first couple times he did it, I said something to my son, you know, pulled him aside and said, Hey, that's not okay. Because I can think of at least 100 women right now. Kick isn't. And, you know, and so we'd have these deeper conversations about where that comes from, and how that's really unhealthy. And, and I'm thinking, okay, great. Like, that's my duty to my son and the kind of person that I want to raise him to be. But then like, just like you said, where do Where is, the commitment to my values forced me to step into the discomfort of some of those conversations. And in the moment, like standing there at the fence at the ballpark being like, Hey, come on, man. Like, you know, you got a daughter standing back there. You can't be saying that garbage. You know, and then having him kind of be like, oh, you know, and maybe never been called out on it before. I'm sure. But it's like versus respected. And that value piece comes into play.

Hmm. Yes. Yeah, I completely agree. And we all know people because we've all been that person who doesn't say anything there. Right? Like, well, I don't want to make waves. I don't want to make an awkward situation. Or you know, who am I to crow called another grown ass adult out. But like, right, that's the moment where we're That's right. Right. It's it's just choosing to do the right thing, even though the right thing is hard. Or the right thing is awkward.

Yeah. Yeah. Or that day, or there were 19 times it was said, and you didn't say anything. And that was the big, big part of it. For me, that was hard. And being like, okay, like, when are you going to speak up? You can't just keep letting that happen, you know, and yeah, knowing that then that might take away the liked, which then takes away the full opportunity for my kid. You know, and so all of that gets mixed up together. And you know, but my obligation is to role model for my son how we need to be in the world. And so that was more important than him getting to play shortstop.

Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. That's, uh, yeah, the tough moments, but those those are the moments that matter. And those are the moments that stick. For sure. So, yeah, that's beautiful brother, you know you. So you talked about how you You got into theater. And I also found myself in theater. And you can hear just in your voice I knew it the first time I met you. I was like, I know this man can sing. Yes, because you have a you have a tambor and a to your voice now McKeel Yeah, that's even just your speaking voice. And so yeah, so So theater theater was the game, you went to school for music? Yes. What what was what was the goal there will be like, I'm gonna go to school for music so I can what?

So I really wanted to be on Broadway. So I am a song and dance man at heart. And I didn't really figure that out until high school. The career goal was either Broadway or I wanted to be a high school choir teacher, because my high school choir experience might have saved my life, you know, as hard as it was in school to be able to actually find a group of people that I fit in with a little bit. And that allowed me to do something good, and that people saw as valuable and, you know, to kind of rebuild my self esteem through that experience, I think was was, you know, invaluable to me at that age. And to be able to maybe do that for other kids was something that really appealed to me. But that's always the fallback, right, like every person is like, I'm gonna go be on Broadway, and we're, I'll get my teaching certificate. You know, that's kind of like the stereotypical plan. And so I ended up going to a four year degree program and learned a couple of things very quickly about whether or not that was going to happen. If anybody listening to this wants to go be a music teacher, someday, you should start taking piano lessons yesterday, because I went, Oh, no, having never done it. And it really is a kind of a foundational core skill. You can't really teach music to other kids, if you can't read music and play music. And I came to that late, I didn't come to that until halfway through high school. I put me on stage in high school and said sing, and I could sing and I learned how to really sing. And that was all great. But to translate that into teaching, I was great at the voice coaching stuff, because I had great voice teachers, and I knew how to do all that. But some of the technical music, you know, I really struggled with it by the time I got to college. And so all those things together, prevented me from I ended up being in a classroom somewhere.

Wow. Yeah, that is I hadn't even thought about that. I mean, yeah, it's because it's not like you're in your music class, your choir or something like that. And someone's gonna bang the notes out for you. They don't like pull up their clarinet and be like, Alright, shall we play this next chord for you? Right? Yeah. Especially with multi parts and everything. Yeah. Yeah, start? Yeah, one of the one of the first courses that you take is in piano 101, probably, right knowledge.

It is in college, if you are a voice major, you have to do piano classes for four years. Unless you've been playing for a while, then you can opt into lessons. But I get, you know, my, my major was voice and so I get asked, you know, every couple months by some other family that will meet who knows I have a degree in voice and they'll say, Oh, my daughter's thinking about majoring in that in college, what advice can you impart. And I give two pieces of advice. The first is, if you haven't started practicing the piano, start right now. Take lessons and make a point to practice two hours a day every day for the entire four or five years of your college experience. And when you're done, you will be just barely, maybe I hope passably good enough to do it at the level that you would need to make this a career. And then the second piece of advice is when choosing a school to major in for music, looks specifically as schools who teach you how to get a job. Because I went to a great school who had a great music education program for teachers. But if you're majoring in performance, there was no audition coaching. There was no setting you up to helping you connect to internships are teaching you how to become a working musician, whereas I had another friend who did go to one of those schools, and his experience was night and day different.

Intro Yeah, so there's music education schools, and then there's music performance, or I read Kinda, yeah,

yeah, you go to a conservatory, you go to NYU, it is all about working. It is all about understanding how to audition. It's all understanding what how to plug into that network and that community and where to go and how to become a working musician. And there's a lot of different ways you could be a working musician, it's not all Broadway, it's, you can do studio work. You can do ensembles. You can, I mean, there's so many different ways you can do it. But I didn't know that at 2021 22. Because I didn't get that in my program. And I'm not I don't mean to sound like I'm blaming them. I had an phenomenal experience. And I wouldn't change anything about it. Because everything I ever did led me to where I'm at right now. And I'm super grateful to that. But if you are really wanting to make that your career if you really want to make singing your career, that piece about auditioning and working has to be a part of the school piece.

Yep. Yeah, for sure. I Also, I wanted to be marine biologist. And once I realized my GPA wasn't where it needed to be, for me to be a marine biologist, I also was like, Well, I guess I'll be a teacher. And I didn't have to learn the piano to do that. But I feel a few less barriers to entry there. Still, it's interesting how I kind of had these grandiose visions of being a mere and by a marine biologist on television, right, that's what I want. Yeah. Um, and, and so there's always been this piece inside of me of that performer. And if I told you this, but going to college I chose between marine biology or theater, and I wound up choosing marine biology because I thought it'd be smart to get a practical degree, or a hard degree that I could plant a flag game. And if I put myself where I needed to when I was later, not when later in life, then I could always do theater, or do music or whatever. And so who knows if, I mean, obviously, I made the right choice for me because I am where I am today. Now, but it's interesting circuitous route. To being a performer again, essentially, is what we do as speakers.

Well, listen, my friend it's clearly makes you the only person qualified to write produce direct and star in Jaws The musical Yeah, okay, this needs to happen. We got to combine this glorious marine biology passion with that theater background, my friend, and we need to put that on stage. I feel like it's part of your destiny.

It's it's time.

I think it is just a musical brought to you by the new mayor of Dayton, Ohio. Public Theater,

leaving with porpoise.

There's a lot of teeth in it. Yeah,

exactly. All right. I think that's the end of the show for us. anymore.

Thanks for never having me back.

Thanks for deleting this podcast from your favorite Johanna kids. So, so so we, we were in school, we're taking the music route, thinking about being a teacher realized we don't know a lot about piano. And then we fast forward to where we are today, right? Where you are a professional speaker who talks about drama in the workplace, company culture, retention, etc, etc. And so, obviously, there were some steps in between there. Something that you and I have in common is that now we were both involved in college, and so involved that we wind up working at universities, no one goes to college with the idea of working at a college maybe as a professor, but But you know, as far as working in the administration side, we worked in higher ed and student affairs and whatnot, developing student leaders, running residence halls, and the like. And I'm wondering for you, I don't know if it was during that period, or if it was during a a later job that you had, I know, you worked in the healthcare industry for some time. But when did you start to develop your passion for leadership?

Hmm. You know, it did probably start during my career in student affairs. So as you alluded to, when I finished my undergrad degree, because I didn't know how to get a job singing, I had done a whole lot of, you know, student affairs II stuff in undergrad being an RA being a fraternity president, you know, all that stuff that most Student Affairs people do when they're undergrads. I ended up just and I loved that I was really intrigued by a lot of the conversations we were having about student development and about creating Living Learning Communities and residence halls and all that sort of thing and the college experience, and I was good at it, I was really good at it. And most importantly, there were jobs, real jobs that you could get like in the newspaper like that you could apply for and so I ended up going into Student Affairs after undergrad and spent 10 years there. And what I figured out is that I was really good in the front of the room. Everywhere I went, every stop I was in. I enjoyed the process of creating and delivering experiences at the front of the room that were engaging for audiences, whether that was our a training or student development programming. I eventually found myself in health education and promotion and did a lot of alcohol education work with fraternities and sororities and having to figure out how do you take a group of people who don't want to be there and turn a program into something that they go, Oh, wow, I want to think differently about that. That was really exciting to me. It was like, you know, it's you know, people fall in love with solving a Rubik's cube as fast as they can. Like, I imagine that that's what that feeling is like, how do I how do I like Create line of sight between, I got to go to this stupid alcohol thing on a Tuesday night because our fraternity president said we have to be there. Verse two walking out of the room, and being like, that was great. And I'm gonna change my behavior. Yeah, that's a magic trick, right? If you can figure out how to do magic, right. And so really learning about what makes people tick, and how they end up thinking differently about things, I think is, is what led me to it. And then, after 10 years of doing that kind of work, I was tired of making no money at all. I was like, $30,000 a year for the rest of my life. I'm not sure about that. And so I ended up making the decision to take a little bit of a step back before I could then go forward. Because the next kind of stop for me would have been like Assistant Dean of Students role, but I would have given up a lot of that program development work that I loved, and would have been putting a lot more fires out. Anyway, I ended up applying for a training development job with a healthcare organization. And that's how I ended up in that role. And that the biggest need, there was leadership development. And so it was like, I could take all of these things that I had learned over the years in student affairs and performing arts and sort of marry them together in a training job, and it was the perfect fit for me.

Yeah, that's awesome. That's crazy. It takes guts to It takes guts to leave a job that is comfortable one that you like, and yes, you know, as, as most people in education, they get gaslit to, you know, the saying that? Well, you just got to appreciate what you have. And this is where we are. And this is your calling. It's a calling. Yeah, exactly. Now, the scariest word in higher education is opportunity.

bill collectors are calling that's who's calling. Okay. They also

see an opportunity. But yeah, but to put all that down and, and go into corporate America, essentially. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that that takes some guts, that also takes some, some confidence to be like, you know, what, no, this is what I deserve. This is what I want. And I have the skill set, and I'm ready to rock. And so, you know, in that, in that period of time, when did you become would you say I consider as both leadership nerds now? Yeah, look, we like to read about it. We like to talk about it, we obviously like to speak about it. When When did you turn into a leadership nerd when you when you elevate it?

I think when I found out how thirsty other people were for it. And I married it together. Like we all have a knack for things, right. And I think I figured out that I have a knack for taking complicated things, and translating them into ideas that are easier to understand and apply. So I could take a book that's 500 pages and pull out the three or four big ideas from it and package it together as part of a training in a way that leads people to be able to walk out of the room and say, Okay, I know what to do with that. And I don't think I realized that that was a strength until people told me over and over and over and over again that it was and I think then that you you come to a point and you say, Okay, these are the tools that I have to use. And so becoming the leadership nerd is a certain amount of this is how I create that experience for those folks. But the coolest part of it, James, and I don't know if you've had this experience as well, is that you get to pick and choose what's most interesting to share with others, or what you think will be most helpful to share with others. Like there are some really amazing popular books out there on leadership that have done nothing for me. I don't I don't necessarily owe it to an audience to still do the work of translating that. Because if I read that and think I don't think there's anything here like I don't think there's anything here that's really new for somebody, but I have this other book or article or speaker or podcast that I've heard and this person said something really smart. Or there's an idea here that I think we can unpack that I think is exciting, because it's new and different, then I can take that to a group or an audience and make it interesting for them to I don't know if that is a great answer to your question about when I became a leadership nerd. Yeah, it was kind of marrying together the proof that I had a skill at it and getting to pick the stuff that was most interesting to me.

Mm hmm. Yeah, for sure. So you can Yeah, you kind of you're able to pick an area to dive into and research or Yeah, you know, develop an expertise in and yeah, you were able to be very pointed in what you wanted to deliver and think about. I think also, I would assume a lot of it also is when you started writing your book No Word team drama and getting into the speaking world and doing more and more there, right? Like you, you have to work towards being a quote unquote expert as they like to send the speaker field, whatever that word really means. Right? And so yeah, so that is that, yeah, I think those those moments combined have turned you into the monster that sits in the diner with me today.

I think the hardest part is when I came out of it from a training background, like as a trainer, I want to tell the whole story every time and when I moved into more keynote speaking, I had a real learning curve, to figure out how not to pack a four hour training into a 60 minute keynote. That's not the thing that doesn't, it doesn't work that way. And so I had to understand that I may not have the time or the platform to, to say, this is a really complicated idea. And here are the 27 ways why, you know, but to say this is a really complicated idea here are the two or three things I think are most important for us to zero in on and the most helpful and the most useful for you. That's, that's a bit of a learning curve. You know, I don't know if you've experienced that in the speaking world, and all the different channels and forums and ways that you share your knowledge. But figuring out how to compartmentalize is a challenge.

Yes, yeah, for sure. I think I think in general, something that I still struggle with is finding the balance of wanting to be an educator, and also still but needing to be an entertainer, entertainer. Yep. Yeah. Right. And finding that balance, and that is, and which audience needs what, right, like the college market is happy for me to lean more towards the educator side. But it's it's been a it's been a learning curve for me to notice that in the in when talking to adults, they're not necessarily always here for all that, right. Yeah. That that this is another way to connect, and they're kind of looking for like, one really great nugget to take away as opposed to a whole bunch of things to try.

Yep, yep. No doubt. I was thinking about Lin Manuel Miranda, who we all know, wrote Hamilton, and yeah, yeah. super tight. And in one of the books that has come out about, you know, kind of documenting the writing process for Hamilton, he wrote a note to Stephen Sondheim and basically asked him, Hey, do I have to include all this all this stuff? Or is it okay for me to pick and choose the parts of this story that I think are more interesting? And I guess Sondheim wrote back and basically said, Hey, man, it's your show, and you get to decide what you think is going to resonate the most with the audience. And again, I'm paraphrasing this from my memory. So please forgive me if the story is not exactly accurate. But that's the gist of it. And, you know, I think that's the balance between the educator and the entertainer that we need to strike, right? What what is the balance that you want them to have when they're done? Is it 5050? Is it that you wanted to fill your program with 75% Deep substance and 25% Entertainment? For me, it depends on the circumstance, it depends on who the audience is, and what they're looking for what the meeting planner says they want. And so I kind of move back and forth within those percentages to try to figure out what the right fit is, you know, depending on the circumstance,

yep. Yeah, for sure. Sometimes I'll ask the meeting planner, okay, what's your ratio? What's your dream is to have this cuz I got stories, and I also got facts, or whatnot. And so yeah, that's fascinating to think about, for sure. It's been a lesson that I would say, I'm still learning. Yeah, definitely. I just wrote a brand new keynote call, do you even know me how curiosity creates community and loyalty, and and that's what I'm, I'm learning about and that one is that I'm just, I'm just still trying to find the balance.

I'm in the middle of that. Right now. I'm, I'm debuting a keynote in three days in front of now. It's a friendly audience. I spoke for them two years ago, it went very well. They've invited me back. So that's a little different than when you're going in someplace cold and so it's a good spot for me to test drive this new keynote. And twice as I've gone through the writing process, I've had to step back and say, Okay, there's a little bit too much sort of entertainment on the front end and actually a little bit too much training and subject matter depth on the back end. How do I mix them and blend them together? And it is it's it's a it's an art form that takes a lot of kind of constant tweaking you don't right at once to do it and say, Okay, now it's done Saturday. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So you know, Joe, you have spent the year a lot of your speaking career focused on drama, and, and trying to stop drama in the workplace, and as a way to as a vehicle stopping drama as a vehicle to increase retention, improve company cultures, etc, etc. Now, why did that become an area that you wanted to plant your flag?

Yeah, it was, it was identified as the most necessary thing by the leaders I was working with. So when I first went out on my own and started my business, I was doing a lot of traditional leadership development, training and translating a lot of the research in employee engagement on into like, here's what leaders need to do to create the conditions at work for people to thrive. And that's still really the center of what I do every day. But when I would get into these training environments, and when I would talk with leaders all over the country, and I would break down these, you know, six or seven conditions that we need to create for people to be at their best every day, we would always come back to this idea of fostering group cohesion and team spirit. And leaders were pointing that and saying that's the hardest one, because what do I do with folks who sabotage? And what do I do with those toxic people? And then, when we would put it in the language of the employee engagement space, we talk about actively disengaged employees, and what do I do with those folks? And so I ended up finding that in longer form training environments, I was spending more and more time talking about that. And so it was just the next thing. It was okay, well, this is the next thing that we need to help people with. And so I went away and started, do I mean, literally go away, but I rented a chalet on the top of the mountain for monk clothing for six years, and I emerged with my book, I went to a cabin in the woods for a week, though, to get it off the ground. And ended up doing a lot more deep dive research into theme, things like teamwork. And that had led me down the path into some of the really interesting like, behavioral economics research in why people make decisions and how they, what assumptions we make about other people, the stories we make up in our minds, and the shortcuts our brains take about why people do what they do and say what they say. And it all kind of came together into a new keynote. So this is the kind of situation where the keynote came before the book. And I was writing, I wrote a keynote called No More team drama, and I kind of test drove it for about a year with audiences. And then I said, Okay, this is the next book. I need to go deeper on some of these things based on the conversations I was having.

Hmm, yeah, that makes sense. To me. The the drama in the workplace is something that I know I have certainly experienced. I'm sure it is a time something that I have caused. I mean, not not a little of me, of course, but just so dashingly witty, you know. And a perfectly timed joke will really upset somebody. But, but yeah, I mean, it's definitely something I've witnessed something that I have, am guilty of, and also something that I am now worked on in the teams that I would I would that I was present on as well. And so at the at the core of drama, at the core of drama is a lot of times it's people think it's just people who want to start shit. Right, like people out here, just like, like you said, they're everywhere. What was the exact phrase you said about? They're actively disengaged? Yeah. Yep. Is is is a lot of drama caused by people who truly don't care? Or is more drama caused by feed people who feel like they're not heard?

I would certainly say it's the latter. That doesn't mean that the former isn't a part of it. One of the things that I wrote about in the book extensively, and that has been at the center of my work for the last couple years, is helping people understand that our brains, our personalities, have some default settings that lead us to more favorably judge ourselves and more harshly judge others than we should. And the result is, we end up moving through the world with two completely different sets of rules, one for us and one for everybody else. Right. Stephen Covey famously said, we judge ourselves by our intentions, we judge others by their behaviors. And we have a boatload of social science research that tells us that it's true. One of the things I'll do from the stage is I'll say, What do you assume about somebody who's late to work? And people yell out, oh, they don't care. They didn't try or they overslept. And they, you know, and you get this list of character defects. And I say, Okay, what was the reason the last time you were late to work? And you get all these completely legitimate circumstances? Right? And then Okay, what if somebody had a problem with you being late to work on that day when your kids spilled on shoes on your pants as you were about to walk out the door? They'd be like, well, that's bull like I work really hard and they should know that well. Okay. gratulations, you've I just have just identified the root cause, which is that you get the benefit of the doubt for yourself, but we don't necessarily give it to others. Right? So our brains tell us that when we see somebody do a questionable thing, it's because they're of questionable character. It says, this is a bias that we have. And it's just almost always not true. There's almost always a legitimate reason why a good person would act that way. And so when we get into Team drama, what we're really getting down into is, how do we short circuit those shortcuts that our brains take where they make up a story about why somebody said what they said or did what they did? That isn't true? How do we know? How do we identify when that story has worked its way into our brain as truth. And what roles do leaders play in tearing apart some of those assumptions and creating the kinds of relationships across teams that keep those those bad stories from taking hold in the first place? Oh, man, you kind of triggered a little keynote there. I'm sorry about that.

Oh, that was fire. Here's what I wrote. Here's what I wrote down while you were talking. When we see people do questionable things, we question their character. Yeah. And that's real. Like, I mean, that Covey, quote is powerful. We judge ourselves by our intentions, we judge other people by their behaviors. I know I'm paraphrasing a little bit there, but, but you got it. Nailed it. So that is something that first off, I didn't need to be called out that today. So I was not. I don't appreciate that. And but my wife does.

Hey, Tina, you're welcome.

But I think, yeah, that that is, that's so real, especially as we start to look around, as we start to look around, just how divided our world is, right? Yes. Yeah. Right. I mean, exact same thing is that we're not the benefit of the doubt isn't there, right? And just like you simple as, you know, there's a rule in comedy called if that is true, then what else is true? Right. And it's a really great way to write funny comedic places. Because you get into really cool play, you know, you can really kind of dive down deeper and deeper, and you create a really fun world. But that same principle, we do unconsciously, every day when we meet somebody, right? It's like, oh, you're wearing a mask? Well, that's true. I'll tell you what else is true. Oh, you're not wearing a mask? Well, that's true. I'll tell you what else is true. Right? Yeah. Oh, you're vaccine or you're not vaccine? Oh, you voted here? Oh, you voted there? Oh, your favorite color is red. And you wear red hats. Let me tell you about that. Right. Like, like, I'm a Red Wings fan. Then so, but still, right. Like, the rabbit hole goes deep, very quickly, when assumptions are the one driving the train, then so?

Well, what can I follow up on that for a second? Because then what happens next is, and this is the reason that team drama takes hold in a lot of groups large and small, is that we take that assumption, which we perceive as the right story, and we seek out validation for it. So you know, I talked about in the program and talk about drama triangles, which is that, you know, if you are bothered by something that somebody says or does at work, do you go to that person and say, Hey, this really bothered me and I had a reaction, I think we should sit down and talk about like adults? No, that does not happen. Like anywhere, you know, what we do is we go to another, and we say, Hey, do you believe that so and so did this or did that or, you know, was wearing that mask? And we are waiting for that person to look left and look right, and then say, I know, right? And, you know, we will seek out the comfort of validation because it's easier to spend stepping into the discomfort of confrontation. And that's why we then create gossip, and we create infighting, and we have all of these kinds of cliquish behavior, because we constantly seek out validation of our first reaction opinions, because that feels good, right? It feels good to be told not only that we are right, but that we are righteous, right. So we seek out people to tell us that we have a right to feel offended in that way. Because now that gives me permission to experience contempt for the other person. And so we've now created the seeds for all of this conflict in this drama, and we allow these unhealthy patterns of conflict to emerge. And in most workplaces, the adults haven't been taught how to actually engage in healthy conflict, which it turns out is what I said at the beginning. It's going to the person is saying, hey, you know, you said this and it bothered me and I'm having a reaction to it. I think we should talk about it.

Right. Okay, let me make sure I wrote this quote down right Joe. We will seek out validation rather than lean into the comfort of the discomfort of confrontation.

Pretty close, we seek out the comfort of validation, rather than step into the discomfort of confrontation. The comfort of validation. Yeah. Great. We do it every day, right? Like if you if your neighbor does something weird, and you know, you've had other conversations with a different neighbor about the weirdo across the way. Yep. You know, the next time that that neighbor does something weird, you're going to the neighbor and being like, Yeah, guess what, you know, guess what he did? Again, you're waiting for that person to say I know, then, you know, that's easier and more comforting than it is to go across the street be like, Hey, man, what gives this? Yeah, this is not working for me.

Yes. Yeah, I completely agree. I mean, we do that. You see it anytime somebody is getting ready to have an argument with somebody also, rather than away anytime someone's ready to, you know, potentially go through a breakup is that they're waiting for this other person to validate the things that are pissing them off, right. And they're just their own. They're not watching for anything good. They do or anything good. They say, they're just waiting for you to see, there it is. There was again, you did it. I told you, right, or I knew it. And we're building our own walls and our own arguments that we then, like you said, go talk to somebody else for validation rather than having confrontation. And this also leads into like, the deeper level of drama that I wanted to connect with you on is the power of groupthink. Yes. Which is, you know, what, when drama really does start to it's it's a virus, right? And it spreads. And it turns into groupthink. And you know, groupthink is that is a pretty dangerous thing, right? I do I do a decent amount of work with fraternity men. Yeah. And you just need to turn on the news to learn what group think fraternity man, none of those. None of those people set out to hurt anybody that night? Yeah, no, right. But they still that's what happened. Right? And, I mean, I know this is not just fraternity men, like I do dumb stuff with my friends all the time, right? Like I have a street sign from my hometown on my garage. Right? What it is Jo?

Be a Mary thief.

It's on public record. Right? But like, you know, like groupthink makes us do some dumb things and also makes us not listen, it makes us not rational, or, or what matter. We just don't pause. So I'm wondering, you know, how do you start to combat groupthink in some of these teams?

Yeah. So at one level, we start with, we have to know what our values are. And you know, in teams where there is persistent drama, I liken it to having weeds in the garden, you know that there is no amount of fertilizer and oxygen and co2 Exchange and water and pruning that is going to convert the weed into a begonia because it's a weed. And so one of the things that we have a responsibility to do as leaders is when we identify those actively disengaged in teams, those peat those people who create and thrive on drama, those folks who have shown us over and over and over again, who they are, I'm not talking about somebody who has a bad day, I'm talking about somebody who consistently over time has established themselves as a having a legacy of this kind of behavior, we have to pull the weeds because if we don't, then weeds spread, and they strangle the life out of the garden. And so we have to have a commitment. And that's hard in some organizations where some of that problematic behavior is being exhibited by people who do really important things or bring in a lot of money, or the only people who know to how to do this job. So it can be really hard to stick to your values in those kinds of circumstances. The other thing that we need to do is we need to set aside the time necessary to do the work proactively to teach teams how to interact with each other, when times are both good and stressful. And so, you know, there are a lot of people who think team building is a dirty word team building is an absolutely essential component of creating a high performing workplace and teams where people treat each other with respect and where there's psychological safety. And we do that by bringing people together by asking them to work together by helping them find things in common with each other, that don't have anything to do with work so that they can access each other's humanity. When we can see each other as fully formed human beings and not just, you're this list of tasks and duties, and she's this list of tasks and duties. Then, when somebody messes up, we're less likely to be like, oh, yeah, she's the worst and actually go, oh, you know, good person having a bad day. And that combats some of the stories that get traded in the group around why somebody said what they did, didn't said what they said or did what they did. And then the other thing, James is that we have to constantly question and that's a really a difficult piece as well. And in the moment, especially if groupthink is taking place, it's often unconscious. But if when we're doing the work proactively, we are deconstruct the decisions we made previously, it helps us get better at deconstructing them in the moment. And so that's a big part, I think, too, of learning how to create a workplace where people don't always fall victim to the demons that whisper in their ears and make up the stories about why other people do what they do. But instead listen to the better angels of their personalities and say, okay, yeah, I'm going to assume good intent here. That's a good person having a bad day. Let me see if I can show up differently.

Yeah. Yeah, it's so funny, because that that sounds great. And I agree with you. And I also know that we, as humans are quick to do things because we feel like our safety or comfort is potentially under siege. And, and so we're not as quick to give the benefit of the doubt, right? I mean, some of that conversation I have with Tina, a bunch of times where the cheese like, she's like, I don't understand why you reacted that way. Where was the benefit of the doubt? And I was like, shit, you're right. You're right. You know, like, I don't know what it was about that moment. But like, there was part of me that made me react this way. And I didn't think about both sides of the coin. And, and so that's something that is such a powerful term. That is that you truly need to be trained into, like you said, through culture, company, culture, work and team building and stuff like that into thinking, which is why go ahead.

Yep. I was gonna say, and, and it's, it's against human nature. You know, when you look at all of this research that's been done in terms of our different levels of thinking and, and how we respond emotionally, versus contemplative Lee to things, our default setting is to jump to conclusions, and is to make up those stories. And so, honestly, this is the learning how to play the piano conversation, right? If you want to have these skills, you've got to show up and practice it every day. And so you have to practice assuming good intent all the time, leaders have to take ownership of that on their teams and say, I'm going to force my teams to go through the these actions in order to become better added over time on their own. So every single time a member of my team comes into my office to say, you know, so and so did this, and you know, they don't care, they don't try that leaders got to say, okay, hold on timeout, that might be true. But what else might be true? What if there was a perfectly good reason for that person showing up that way? What might it be, and that takes work that and that takes a commitment. And that can be exhausting. But the more we have those conversations day after day after day after day, then it's like putting a little deposit into the piggy piggy bank of teamwork, because eventually it pays off with big savings and much more capital in that area over time.

Yeah, that's what I love about what you said is that, you know, team building isn't it's something that we were working on good communication and bad communication, right? Like, how do we talk to each other in good times and, and in stressful times? I appreciate that. Right? It's not like, you don't go to couples counseling, you shouldn't go to couples counseling, just when you're starting to be like, Oh, what's going on here? Right, right, like start going to couples counselor early, because you have to what you want to build in the practice. So yeah, you know, you gotta you got to start learning piano before you go to school for music, which is ironic, but it is what it is, right? That's

what it is, if you want to have those skills, and you want to be able to, to, you know, make I was gonna really reach for a bad analogy, like, make all the harmony work, but but if you want it, if you want it to actually all come together in the way that you know, I would have wanted it to come together as a musician. You have to you have to do those things. Yeah.

Joe, I love that. Brother, I appreciate you coming in here and dropping a little wisdom on them. Awesome, man. No, it's It's cool to tap into your brain, right? It's funny, because we are our friendship is only growing. And it's got a really cool way to go. And I'm excited to continue to get to deepen it. And we talk about our work, but we don't necessarily talk about what we talk about in our work as speaker. Yeah. And it's just, it's cool to

talk about business more so than the kind of the philosophies and the ideas

and all the research you did behind it and everything so yeah, man, it was really cool to hear you talk about it. So I, I appreciate you coming in here into the diner and just and just dropping a little bit honest, but also, you know, talking to us a little bit about some of that stuff that we learned in the stories we started to write about ourselves because the what the bullies said and what and, you know, I just appreciate you talking about it all with me Joe. Thanks for being here, man.

Hey, man, it's an honor. It's a pleasure. I'll come back anytime I loved it anytime I get to spend time talking with you and just riffing and laughing man, it's the best part of my day so thanks for having me.

I love it Joe. Joe let people know where where can they find you if they want to learn a little bit more man, you know, you put a lot of great stuff up on LinkedIn and and whatnot, but tell people a little bit more about how they can find

you. Thank you, man. Yeah, the probably the fastest, easiest way is just to go to boss better now.com You can find our podcast that way you can find our email newsletter that way that's connected to our website. So, boss better now.com

Boss better now.com I love it. Joe, thanks for coming in, brother. It's always good to see your face man.

Likewise. Thanks, buddy. Appreciate you,