Jo is absent again, so Andy and Emily have a two-topic episode: first, the announcement of the Business of Children's Media Summit, taking place November 12th in Dublin; then a deep dive into Jeffrey Katzenberg's viral essay on AI and the future of animation.

Dennis Crushall from Precisify joins briefly to help launch the summit, which Emily has been quietly building for months in partnership with Cultural and Creative Industries Skillnet. Taking place at the Alex Hotel in Dublin, the day-long event is focused on going direct to audience — YouTube, gaming, consumer products, and franchise strategy — and features keynote speaker Erica Quinn, Director of Kids and Family Consumer Insights at Disney, alongside BBC Children's and Education's Anna Taganov. Tickets are €75 via Eventbrite, and there will be a live podcast recording on the day. Emily has also promised a pint of Guinness to every international attendee, a commitment Andy intends to make very expensive.

The second half is a sharp dissection of Katzenberg's 2,000-word Twitter essay positioning AI as the next Toy Story moment for Hollywood — expansive rather than destructive, with tech providing the tools and Hollywood providing the soul. Andy's most interesting observation is around the John Philip Sousa parallel Katzenberg draws: the real fight may not be about the technology at all, but about copyright compensation — and studios sitting on vast IP libraries, including the newly merged Paramount-Warner entity, could stand to benefit significantly if the law catches up. The episode closes on a fittingly ironic note: someone ran the essay through an AI checker and it came back 60% AI-generated.

🎟️ Get your tickets for the Business of Children's Media Summit: https://www.eventbrite.ie/e/the-business-of-childrens-media-summit-tickets-1998215489319

📊 Explore Precisify's research and reports: https://www.precisify.com/reports-and-playbooks

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Kids Media Club podcast.

I am Andy Williams.

I'm Emily Horgan.

And we don't have Joe Redfern today, but we do have big news.

We do have big news.

We are joined by Dennis Crushall from Precisify, who is one of the key sponsors of business of Children's Media Summit.

Hey, Dennis, thanks for joining us.

Hi, Emily.

Hi, Andy.

It's great to be back on the podcast with you both and looking forward to this event that we have on November 12th as well, which we're sponsoring in partnership with you all.

Yeah, it's so cool.

Really excited for this.

So we just announced it last week.

It's happening as Dennis said, November 12th in the Alex Hotel in Dublin.

That's one of the central, central hotels in Dublin.

In Dublin city centre, I'm partnering with cultural and creative industries Skillness.

So Garrett Lee from there.

We have been hatching this plan for a few months, more than a few, it feels like, and Precise Five come on board as a key sponsor.

Really excited for the event.

It's going to be about the business of going direct to the audience and I think that's one of the differences of it we're talking about, you know, we're definitely looking at insight and research about what kids are doing online in media and what, what kind of what, what their preferences are, what kind of shows they want, what kind of, what kind of content they're looking for as well as obviously the platforms and strategies that bring us direct to consumers.

So YouTube, of course, but also gaming and franchise consumer products, all that kind of stuff.

So it's going to be, it's going to be really cool.

I'm really excited.

I've, I, we've started announcing guests and I have a lot of other people on my hit list that make me very excited for what this could be.

Yes.

And you promised a pint of Guinness for every international guest that comes over.

I'm making it my mission to make your round at the pub to be the most expensive round ever.

Kang Sandy.

That's what real colleagues do, isn't it?

I have indeed, I have indeed promised I will personally buy a pint of Guinness for all international attendees that are coming.

That includes you, Andy, of course.

And I'll chip in with the round as well, if that's fine.

No, I will buy your pint.

You're fine.

But yeah, I mean, this is the thing.

It's exciting to do it in Dublin.

Myself and Dennis are both based here now and I've been Chatting about this for a few years, I guess, Dennis, ever since we've been.

Obviously we partnered with Preciseify on an event in London a while ago that was really, really successful.

But we talked about potentially bringing it to Dublin and with culture and creative industry skills coming on board, it kind of all just kind of clicked into place.

Yeah.

And I think Dublin's a great venue for people to come to centrally for an event like this.

I think as well, kind of what you said at the start, Emily, about that, what you said about direct to audience, I think that's a big thing that I think about, like in this digital world now, which is the new normal.

And even though it's going to keep changing, it's kind of good to start a new event where we're looking at, okay, what is the new normal and how would you plan event around that?

And direct to audience is very important.

I think a big area that we believe in as well is to kind of give.

There's a lack of research and a vacuum of data and insights in this space, which we do in a COPA compliant manner at Precisify, which we're really excited about sharing at the conference.

And that's basically how we properly connected after, after kind of knowing each other in London for a bit.

Dennis was, you guys published the Park Report, which looked at like things like kids media habits, like what platforms they're on.

I mean, I think some of the insights around that, particularly around YouTube being so clearly the key platform for kids, the front page of the kids Internet, like I, like I say that was the first thing that I kind of reach out to you about.

I was like, this is a great report, like, let me see the data, let me look at more, more of the insights.

And that's, you know, that's something that you guys have brought to those events in London as well.

It's like just trying to kind of get these conversations happening that are kind of productive and looking to the future or looking to the reality of the situation.

I mean, I think what makes the partnership work really well as well, I think you guys really produce, you provide the tools and the data and the research that I think people are kind of hungry for.

And actually historically a lot of producers and people within the industry haven't had necessarily at their fingertips.

I think it, it kind of answers a real, a real need there.

Yeah, yeah.

And we've seen that.

I think a big thing that we talk about internally is like, let's put content out there that's so good that people will want to Share it and it'll help them be better at their jobs.

And I think these events, I think that we partnered with you on before and events in general are a great way for the industry to come together to, like, share the different learnings.

Like, we've worked a lot in the toy industry where the toy was always quite a secretive industry because, like, there was a lot of like, oh, that toy, or is there a tweak on that toy?

And worried about IP with the products.

But on the marketing side, like, it's been such a massive change and the production side that, like, I think these events are a great place where people come together with common problems and to speak about them.

Yeah, a problem shared is a problem halved or something like that.

So I think that's what we're trying to do at these.

Over.

Over a pint of Guinness.

It's a problem in quarters.

Over a pint of Guinness.

Not too many Guinness.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It could be a problem in itself.

Could be a problem.

No, but it's those, those insights that I like, I really appreciated.

Like, obviously we've worked with them together.

I actually see them pretty regularly fed back to me through other clients as well.

So they're kind of, they're kind of really resonating with the audience and I think that's.

Or with, with the industry, should I say.

And that's something that's.

We want to bring into this.

This, this conference, this, this summit is, you know, looking at what we know about the audience from a platform and media habit point of view as well as looking at, you know, we've got Erica Quinn coming over, director of Kids and Family Consumer Insights at Disney, coming over to talk about what kind of content kids love to watch.

Right.

And what really connects with them.

So that's another interesting.

That's, that's going to be our, our keynote for the day.

As I said, there's panels on YouTube, we've got Anna Taganov from BBC Children's and Education coming over and we have a few more guests that are yet to announce, but I'm really excited about.

To talk about things like consumer products, publishing, licensing and, and gaming as well.

Gaming.

Roblox.

Obviously Joe.

Joe's not with us, but, you know, Joe is going to be putting together a pretty good set there too.

And they were planning on recording a podcast, a live podcast on the day.

Right, Andy?

Indeed, yes.

Very excited about that.

Cool.

So, like, there's, there's loads going on.

I think it's, I think it's gonna, it's Gonna be fun and it's something that, you know, we believe a lot in the value of it.

It's gonna be based in Dublin.

So, yeah, pretty short.

I mean, I said international.

International guests very welcome.

Not too far hop from anywhere in, in Europe at least.

And a short hop over from, from London anyway, or the uk.

And yeah, no, we're, we're.

I'm really excited about how it's all going to come together.

Yeah.

And I think, I think one thing as well is like the Irish market, like the local market, there's such a strong heritage around animation companies in general.

Whether that be like Brown Bag or whether.

Then as well, in the toy category, we've like the.

One of the biggest retailers in Europe for toys and slits.

Yeah.

So I think, I think there's a great indigenous culture in the animation, kids and family sector.

But then as well, it's great to see like the likes of BBC and Disney, I think are coming over from the UK and further afield, so looking forward to get all of these industry leaders in one room for the day.

I always say about the Irish kids media industry, we're a bit like kids media.

Like we are about rugby, right.

So Ireland and rugby completely over, over, over bats.

Right.

Like we are a small country, we're not brilliant at everything.

We don't have the resource or the population size to be, you know, the biggest football team in the world or, you know, but there's certain things where we apply ourselves and we excel.

One is rugby and the other is kids media because, yeah, loads of really great animation studios and producers based in Dublin, obviously Smith's as well, one of the biggest toy retailers.

So, yeah, I do feel like the potential, like it's not just potential.

There's just so much evidence there of how strong the industry is.

And this is hopefully going to come together to focus a little bit around the next what the new normal looks like.

I think what you said, Dennis, like, it is part of it has to be going direct to the audience.

The way the television industry, the TV industry has gone in terms of commissions, contracting and those premium platforms holding a bit less dominance versus obviously platforms like YouTube and Roadblocks.

So I think that's something that I really like people to get out as insights around going direct to the audience rather than going via the commissioner to the audience.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I think we talk about that a lot on the podcast, but it feels like if it feels like it's a great opportunity for an event that really kind of recognizes that and, and talks to that kind of situation.

Right, yeah.

And the only, the only other thing I would say is like, if you can't make the event or if you're preparing for the event, the research we mentioned, I'd give a call out that if you do go to precisify.com, you'll see our research there around Gen Alpha, Gen Z stuff.

So that will give you a taster for what the content's like.

But hopefully you can make it to Dublin.

Yeah, yeah, definitely make it to Dublin.

But yeah, those, those insights are really awesome, Dennis referencing them them regularly.

So a bit of housekeeping, 12th of November in Dublin.

It's going to be running from around like doors at 9:30, start at 10 till around half 5 till 6.

So it's going to be a full day of, of, of, of of an event.

And tickets are available via Eventbrite.

There's 75 Euro, thanks to sponsors like Precisify.

We've tried to keep the cost really accessible for everybody.

So yeah, hopefully that's of interest.

And the Eventbrite is linked.

It's called the Business of Children's Media Summit, but it's linked via my LinkedIn, my substack.

I think Andy's linked it too.

So if you're looking for the link, just drop any of us a DM and we'll get it out to you.

But yeah, hoping to see you there.

We're really excited about how it's all coming together.

It's been kind of months in the workings and I know we've referenced in the podcast a few times about plans for this year and this has been one of them.

And so we're really excited to see how this is going to work.

So that's going to be.

Yeah, please come along, get your tickets and let's get in it together.

Yeah, it'll be amazing.

I'm really looking forward to it.

Awesome.

Great.

Well listen, thank you so much for joining us, Dennis, and we'll see you in Dublin.

Yeah, see you then.

See you on November 12th.

See you then.

And just one final note, we'll stick all of the links in the notes on this podcast as well, so anyone that needs them, they'll be easy to access.

Thanks, Dennis.

Thank you.

Oh, that was good to talk to Dennis.

And I'm so glad that the business of Children's Media Summit is out and about in the world because we have been cooking this plan for a little while, haven't we, Andy?

We have, yeah.

I mean, yeah, it's exciting to see all of the responses to it with the news out there.

Yeah, great.

Well, what else.

What else is going on this week?

What else is.

What else is on your mind?

What are we talking?

That caught my attention was Jeffrey Katzenberg, ex DreamWorks, ex Disney, ex Quibi, wrote a long post on Twitter.

I refuse to call it.

Call it X, no matter what Elon Musk says about AI that very uncontroversial subject and its impact on Hollywood and the entertainment industry and kind of quite specifically on animation as well.

Yeah, yeah, I saw you.

You sent it through in the chat.

Like there was.

It was.

It was.

It was along.

It was, you know, probably over 2,000 words.

And he spoke.

He.

He's got.

He's got great perspective.

Right.

Like, he's been.

He's been in these moments before.

Yeah, yeah.

And he's.

He's kind of been.

He very much.

He positions himself as being at the forefront of some sort of big changes to Hollywood.

At Disney, there was.

There was the kind of almost traditional 2D animation studio, which then he was quite kind of critical in introducing 3D elements like the.

The massive CGI ballroom in Beauty and the Beast or the stampede, the stampede in the Lion King, that you started to have those big 2D Hollywood movies that would start to incorporate some 3D elements.

And then the big sea change was with Toy Story and Pixar, which he sees as being, in some ways having some parallels with AI at the moment, because he.

He talks about how there were a lot of.

He doesn't kind of.

He doesn't actually sugarcoat it too much.

So he does talk about how there were a lot of talented 2D animators in that period that never made that transition to 3D.

And it was 3D in the guise of kind of Toy Story and all of the films that followed that.

It kind of heralded a real sea change.

Disney pretty quickly shut down their 2D animation studio and then kind of pivoted entirely to 3D animation.

And in that change and that transition, it meant that some people were kind of left behind.

And so paints AI as being a similar situation.

But he is only.

He.

He is positive.

I mean, my read on this, on this was positive.

You know, he's.

He's.

He.

He cites, you know, the introduction of, you know, recorded music and orchestras that used to play live in cinemas being let go and stuff like that.

But ultimately his view is that.

Or his observation of history, in fact, is that these types of technical revolutions expand the canvas.

They expand what, you know, the medium of entertainment, the medium of art, you Know, filmmaking is art and ultimately the soul is still ne, like human soul is still absolutely necessary.

And that never changed, you know, and it never changed to the advent of recorded music.

It never changed through the advent of television.

It never changed through the advent of computer generated animation.

Like it always, it expanded the canvas every time and made for a bigger, you know, a bigger, better industry, basically.

Absolutely.

And he talks about, he, he gives, he talks about the example of 3D animation with toy Story.

And he said that despite the disruption and despite the fact that you had, in some ways it was, it was the end of big Hollywood 2D hand drawn animation.

Actually, the new animation that followed it was commercially more successful and there were more animated movies than they'd been prior to that.

I think he kind of, he saw the advent of 3D animation as really broadening out the market for animated movies.

And, and the fact that now you typically, you'll have one or two animated movies that will be in the top 10 movies a year.

And that when, when Disney were just doing, when some ways Disney were the main source of 2D hand drawn animation, that would be, that wouldn't be so such a regular phenomenon.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And you know, I think it makes, it makes the landscape bigger.

He sees there being, you know, more movies being made, more content being made and produced.

He does.

And ultimately it needs to have a soul to kind of cut through.

Yeah.

And so his pitch is the, that, yeah, the tech companies provide the technology.

Yes.

But the Hollywood, Hollywood provides the soul and the taste.

Yeah.

Creativity.

And so he sees that marriage as being a pretty productive one.

I.

Sorry, so I was going to say.

And he points to that example of Pixar again, because Pixar is, Pixar was born out of Silicon Valley, not out of Hollywood.

Yeah, yeah.

And his proposition is that Disney couldn't have created Pixar from within Disney studios.

It needed to be born outside of, outside of Hollywood.

And yeah, I think he sees a similar situation with AI and I'm sure, I think he's involved in some AI companies that are specifically kind of geared around animation.

And I think he maybe sees himself as partnering up with some creators and sort of technical geniuses from Silicon Valley to bring, to bring that kind of alchemy to Hollywood.

One of the things that really caught my eye though, on the essay and I thought it was an interesting.

So he, he goes back to the introduction of mechanical sound, the fact that you had enormous, that you had a lot of orchestras employed when movies were silent to, to provide live music.

For.

For movies.

And ultimately that.

That went away with the advent of mechanical sound and movies having audio.

And he wrote an article called the Menace of Mechanical Music, where he warned that the phonograph would become a substitute for human skill, intelligence and soul.

But Katzenberg contends that actually Sousa's fight was.

Wasn't so much with the machinery and the technology, but about the money and the compensation.

Yeah, basically his lobbying created a change in the law, which then created the Copyright act, which allows.

Allowed the terms under which that work could be used had changed, and then the composer would then be compensated.

And I wondered whether that example has more of a.

More connotations for Katzenberg and whether Hollywood is very much positioning itself that the current situation where effectively AI can be trained on copyrighted work without permission of conversation.

I wonder whether there may be still the will within Hollywood to kind of change those terms so the IP owners get compensated.

Yes.

And that would change things for a lot of people like Katzenberg that might be sitting on an enormous library of copyrighted content.

Yes, yes.

He talks about credit, consent and compensation needing to go into AI.

And I mean, I think it is this moment, right.

Of like, you know, on one hand, obviously, the AI, AI companies are famously asking for regulation.

Although, interestingly, this is the one regulation they're not asking for.

Oh, that's funny.

So my view on that is that they're asking for regulation, at least in some part, to create some regulatory barriers for new entrants.

So I think it shores up the early entrance position against competition.

But they're very much not asking for regulation of copyright because I think that will increase their costs.

Yes, it certainly will.

But it, I mean, it just feels like that kind of question of regulation, you know, or of, you know, structure, like different structure for how it's going to work is kind of maybe starting to.

I don't want to say crystallize.

They're not that clear yet, but it is starting to kind of come into focus a little bit more.

Yeah.

And I think you can see how if those terms over copyright did change that, it might play to the advantage of companies like Disney, maybe even Paramount and Warner, that are sitting on a kind of treasure trove of ip.

So.

So I thought it was interesting viewed.

Viewed from that perspective as well.

And I think going back to the Warner brothers and to Paramount and Warner, I notice that their commitment to release at least 30 movies a year, if you kind of drill down into more of the small print, a lot of those movies they're saying will be under 50 million.

And so I, I wonder whether there's a bit of a bet on the, the money saving aspect of AI.

Yes, yes.

Yeah.

And I suppose it comes down to a few different things.

It comes down to, you know, ethical AI practices in production and using AI to do the grunt work essentially so that, you know, artists are freed up to think bigger and bolder.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I think where it will undoubtedly have an impact if it's used kind of extensively, the speed at which productions can get going I think will massively work.

I think there's still a dilemma and attention for AI used in movies because I think my feeling is that Disney, Dreamworks, Sony, there'll all be an element of AI within those productions now.

But from a marketing and promotional point of view, it's often seen as being a negative.

So I think there's a tension there as well between how much it's being used and then how much that is being advertised.

Yeah.

And being transparent about it yet.

Yeah, yeah,.

Yeah.

Okay.

Well, super interesting.

I mean it's, it's, it's, you know, obviously Jeffrey Kastenberg is kind of a godfather of the industry essentially, so very notable to have his take on it.

Yeah.

I mean it's had a kind of mix of feedback on online and on social.

So some people have not kind of relished.

Relished it particularly.

And it did make me laugh that somebody put it into, put the actual essay into AI checker and it came out that it was 60% AI, 40 cent human.

And this is why we need people in the world to think to do that and so in creativity to think to do that.

Okay.

Yeah.

Great gas.

Okay, well listen, do you want to do the sign off?

Andy, this has been a bit episode.

Yes.

So, yeah, I hope everyone enjoyed this bumper packed episode.

You got two episodes for the price of one.

Please watch and listen wherever you get your podcasts and we'll see everyone next week.

Well, when I see.

We'll see everyone, we won't actually see you, but you'll see us, so listen to us.

Hey, I couldn't come for that, Andy.

AI couldn't come up with that.