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Elevating Recruitment Through Authentic Human Connections
Episode 23115th November 2023 • The HERO Show • Richard W Matthews
00:00:00 01:11:04

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On The Hero Show, host Richard Matthews engages in a dynamic conversation with Suman Cherry, a seasoned recruiter with over two decades of experience. Discover how she's reshaping the world of recruiting by prioritizing genuine human connections over the elusive 'unicorn' candidates. 

Tune in as Suman passionately shares with Richard why values and effective communication take precedence over skills when forging meaningful connections between companies and candidates.


Richard Matthews: [:

What's your mission in your business?

Suman Cherry: I really want to create

a better dynamic

and I believe that

my influence in doing that

is my ability to help people

companies like owners

and leadership teams

have a better life really

because they have someone else

helping them with this process

and they can go home

and they can breathe at the end of the day

and they can actually have the time

to spend with their family

and they're not worried about all these things

on the candid side

it's the same thing

I want to put people

in good organizations

that have the right values

and they have the right growth

and are taking the bus the right way

and I want to bring the people that

want that and are where they're

supposed to be

I want to create that value for them

because all of it is just

it really feels good to help people

because work is so important

what we do is so important

we're there a lot

it affects our mental health, it affects everything

being able to create an environment

or a way of doing it

that's very seamless and easy

and very honest and just up front


is needed in our world, honestly


Richard Matthews: Hello and welcome back to the hero show. My name is Richard Matthews. Today I have the pleasure of having Suman Cherry online. Suman, are you there?

Suman Cherry: I'm right here.

Richard Matthews: Awesome. So glad to,


so glad to have you on here. And I guess what I wanted to start off with before we get too far into anything is why don't you tell me a little bit about,


about who you are and what you're known for and then will dive into,


dive into your bio a little bit and we'll,

uh, we'll,

we'll go from there.

Suman Cherry: So that's

always like a difficult question, right? Like, who am I, right?


So I guess professionally, I mean,


I'm a recruiter,


I've been in recruiting for like 20 years and I've done a lot of recruiting on all aspects of recruiting and placed a lot of different people, work a lot of different companies, all about culture and understanding the best process, right?


on a personal level,


I have a child, I have one daughter, she's almost 11 and she's like, She's the main show, like she's the main event, you know, in our house. Like I think that's how it is when you have like one child.

Um, I've been,

I've been with [:

So we're both like very entrepreneur based and we're just,


I'm someone who just like really likes to expand and grow and be challenged and all the things that come with it. So that's kind of

who I am. My,

Richard Matthews: uh,

Suman Cherry: my,

Richard Matthews: my wife and I have been married, we'll be 15 years in about 20 days, which is cool.


and we got four kids, so I've got, my oldest is 13 and my youngest is 4, so we got them all across the board, and,


so, it's super fun, and yeah, my,

uh, um, I,

I run the company, my wife runs the house, so, which is great, because I wouldn't be able to run the company if she wasn't running the house.

Suman Cherry: Right, no, I understood that.

Richard Matthews: poor kids and homeschooling and traveling and all the stuff that we do. It's crazy. So let me just run through your bio real quick so people know who you are. And then we'll dive into your story and


and go from there. So Suman has over 20 years of experience in recruiting world.

eeds of both her clients and [:


And over 500 employees and interstitials, medical, oil, gas, construction, real estate. She understands the struggles companies face to find the right match and is committed to creating healthy and easy experience for all involved.

And I have to tell you, as someone who has just hired my 13th employee,


just this last week,


getting the right people is such a key aspect of running a successful company. That,


I've never worked with a recruiter and I'm curious to know what your thought is before we even get into your story, the difference between hiring on your own and using a recruiter to find the right person.


why would,

why would someone like me who hires talent regularly come to you?

a lot of responsibilities in [:

With the existing people you have and your, the process piece and all of it, right? Like it all stops at you when you're the CEO of a business, you know, or the president


and yeah,


the people that come on board your bus 'cause you're driving the bus, right? And you need those top, those right people to be on that bus with you because that's gonna decide where your bus is gonna go.

But the challenge is if you do it on your own, Yeah, you definitely can. But the challenge


is how much time do you really have to dedicate to the process itself? Right? It's not like the process itself is necessarily hard. It's time consuming. Sorting through hundreds of resumes is time consuming.

n owner of a business, like, [:

What if I can't fulfill this job? Like all of us have, right?


and having this external place, whether you work with me or an external recruiter, it gives you a more of a safety and it allows you to have more time. to work on the things that you really want to work on your business. Because most people don't even like recruiting.

People ask me all the time, like, I can't, I would hate your job. Like, I can't believe you do that for a life. Like, this is your career. And I'm like, yeah, but like, this is what I specialize in. This is what I live. So it's very different experience for me than if I'm doing 30, 40, 50, 60, a hundred different things and trying to squeeze in an interview, you know, trying to squeeze in that call.

So it's a very different place. So that's what I would say.

Richard Matthews: Yeah,

Suman Cherry: it's a different,

Richard Matthews: it's a different world for sure. And I know like


my experience,

I've got,

I've got a pretty, like, I don't know,

I don't,

I don't want to call it robust because it's probably not as robust as your process, but I have like, I have a process we follow and you know, when we looking to hire someone for a role,


re three people for the same [:


we'll have them.

Complete all of the same tasks and see how they're like doing. There's a lot of work that goes into managing three people through the hiring process,


to decide who, who's going to be the best fit for culture and all sorts of other things. And it would be,


amazing to have someone else do that for you.

Suman Cherry: Well, and also I think we, you know, what we bring as well is. We don't have,


our models different and I, we don't have to go into all the details, but we're not attached to the candidates because we do everything on an hourly consultative model. So we come in as an extension of your team. So we're very consultative based.

Like we're understanding really who you are as a culture, who are the players and what types of people are going to fit in, but we're not attached to the whole process. So we can give very unbiased opinions or, you know, We're very direct with our approach. It's a lot of transparency, honesty, and,


and that's a very important piece of it.

Richard Matthews: So

the thing,

the thing that sticks out to me, and this is because one of my personal goals is,


and [:


we've got a larger company now, right? We got like 13 people and like 30 family members that rely on the income that


our business produces.

Suman Cherry: Right.

Richard Matthews: And so I always look at my business like, hey, if I get hit by a bus tomorrow, how does it continue? Right. How do all of those people continue to get fed? How do all of our clients continue to get served? Not that I plan on getting hit by a bus anytime soon, not in my plans, but I want my business to be able to survive.

You know, maybe I break my leg and can't work for a couple of weeks, right? Those kind of things.

I need,

I need to know that everything gets,


gets taken care of. And one of my current goals is I've got a list of things that I'm like, these are the things that I'm responsible for all the time. And one of those is hiring, right?

And I'm like, I don't have. Really good systems in place that someone else can be taking care of that for me. And I'm no, I like, I don't have a sellable business. I don't have a protected business. I don't have a business that is where it needs to be and tell each of those processes to include hiring payroll sales.

everal things that as a CEO, [:

uh, our,



our, we've got most of our things that we do for delivery taking care of, and we're just starting to work on, okay, what are the next systems we need to put in place?

So the business is not Richard's business, it is its own entity that drives on it. And so hiring for me, and it's kind of interesting to be in this conversation, was I literally just put it down on my list the other day with my operations manager, and I was like, which systems do we need to start focusing on next?

And hiring was at the top of the list, because I was like, I can't be in charge of that forever.


so that's where someone like you would come in. And I'll take a visit to that part.

Suman Cherry: Yeah, and

I think, you know, I don't, I think that


the thing is recruiting. Is your competitive edge as a client, I mean, as a company as well, your ability to attract good people or the right people is going to set you apart from your competitors as well.

t or when an owner is coming [:

The whole process is going to get shortened, right? But when you have a competitive edge, like a recruiting agency helping you, it allows you to draw a larger net because that's what you ultimately want. You want, like I tell my clients, like I, my goal isn't necessarily to find the right person for you because you might get an internal referral.

You might get someone else. My goal is to find, provide you really strong candidates where you're like. I don't know which best person to choose out of the bunch, right? Versus, I guess I'm going to choose this person because they're the best out of the group I've met. And that's really what ends up

happening a lot of times.

Richard Matthews: Yeah,

yeah, I've been there. I get that. It makes a lot of sense too. And I know, like


mportant the company culture [:

um, it's, it's

it's own competitive advantage. Right. Where, you know,


I had a friend of mine I was

talking about

talking about this recently.

I was like, you know, my, my favorite, like flex in business is not how much revenue we make or how many clients we serve or any of those things. It's how long our employees stay with us and how excited they are to be a part of our team.


and so like my longest standing employees with it has been with us for almost like 13 years.

Like on part time project rates stuff all the way up


till now. And when we were finally able to offer him full time work, he was like, fuck yeah, please let me come. I would absolutely love to work with you,


full time. And that's where, that's the way I want to run my company. So,


you know, it's the human aspect can't be ignored for building your company and building your system.

Suman Cherry: No. And

the thing


is a lot of times the clients

I work with,

rk with those companies that [:

Our values extend outside of our work environment, right? It all extends into our life, right? So when we are talking to clients, The challenge


is that people don't even know that this amazing company has a position open. Like, you know what I mean? Because these large companies dominate things. They have a lot of money for advertising and marketing and all these things, and everyone has this perception of them.

And then people go work for them and it's just, they're treated like, you know, that they're just robots or, Oh, I'm sorry. Or

they get,

they get,


they get laid off, but they don't even know and they show up to go into work and, you know,


Oh. By the way, you don't have a job anymore. I mean, that's what they did, right?

Isn't that

Richard Matthews: I heard that. I have this,


this concept I'm working on,




I've named now, but I don't have all the pieces, like, worked out yet. But I'm calling it Family First Entrepreneurship.


and the idea is, you know, ever since the pandemic, but even a few years before that, since when we actually started building our company.

The remote work has really changed the way companies can exist today. Not every company, right? You know, you talk about oil and gas, someone probably needs to be touching things there, but


for a lot of companies, a lot of,


especially like we're in the service based business where we don't have, we don't have location,


like on location, we're getting done.

We can be a hundred percent remote.


and we're not the only company like that. There's a lot of us around.


so it's a large section of the market. And There's a new model for work, and one of the things that I've noticed is that your younger generation, so Gen X, Millennials, Gen Z in particular,


ng paid, at the top of their [:


it's actually number three. And, like, looking into the research on it, it's... Flexibility first, impact second, and income third. And so we started, I started looking at in our company, how do we build our company around that sort of ethos? That like, every one of my staff members knows, like, your first priority should be go to your kid's baseball game, not show up at work today.

Right? And how do we build a company that not just allows for that, but thrives with that being the environment? And my,


my goal is to be successful enough

that model,

that model over the course of the next several years that,


that other companies want to emulate it. But


that's sort of my,


my, my ethos on, on


how we're trying to recruit and build

our own,

our own culture.

Suman Cherry: And, and,

and I agree with you completely. Like something shifted after COVID. And I'm seeing it even with people who are, you know, outside of


e range I work with a lot is [:

Richard Matthews: Yeah.

Suman Cherry: That's kind of my kind of range.


it's the same as well, I mean, don't get wrong. People wanna be paid what they're, you know, people wanna be paid like they have to be paid,

Richard Matthews: they wanna be paid a fair wage,

Suman Cherry: be valued, right? What the market is. But that's not what the questions they're asking. Like when Covid happened and everyone went back home, And everyone really took it there.

A lot of people looked at their life and I think you can see it in the fact that there's been so many shifts in people's relationships. I mean, there's so much going on, right? You get on Facebook and you're like, okay, what's going on now? You know? But, and this happened like with the job side too, because people went home and like started realizing that their mental health and their connection with their family and missing out on the baseball games and missing out on these things, times with their kids.

That was lacking in their life and they need that more in their life. I mean, I worked with so many,


ood environment. I liked the [:

And they weren't flexible about that. And then, you know, we find them a company where there is flexibility, like not even a big flexibility. It's just, yeah, you can come an hour late, early. Yeah. You can leave an hour early. It's just that simple of a flexibility piece. Right.

Um, and,

and that's what people want and people want to be part of something where

the impact,

the impact piece

is something positive for our world because everybody knows that the way things are don't really working for people, right? So a lot of people want to be that change and they can see that in their work environment. It's not about being a family. It's about being a community. Let's be honest, right? You're a community.

borate with people and build [:

And I think that's what people are people. And that's like what you're talking about as well is that's what people want to feel when they walk into an organization, you know, or


Richard Matthews: that they're working.

Their work has,

their work has value, right? Like the,

uh, it's,

it's not, I'm not just trading my time for money because if I was just doing that, I could spend time at home with my kids and my family and the things that I really want to do.

But if I, you know, I need to pay for my life, can I also, if I'm going to take time away from my kids, can I take time away from my kids and have it be an impactful part on the world, right? I want to have both. And the reality is we can build companies that do that.


if we just started focusing on it, right.

If we started thinking about that and you know,


it's just, it's the next generation of making, making,


making the world a better place is how do we make the workplace better? And so I really agree.


so many years, didn't really [:

But there is a hustle. There is a little bit of a lack of, there can be a lack of transparency. There can be a little bit of, and I don't want to say this is the case with all the costs associated with them. You know, it's, there's,

it is,

it is very cost prohibitive for a lot of smaller businesses to spend $25,000 on a placement.

Right. So when I created this business, it was really what the understanding of, I wanted to offer something different for companies of how to hire, but really. I really do it from like a place where I want to change, like I don't ghost people.

I don't,

I don't not give candidates feedback. I hold my clients accountable.

positions where I don't get [:

I'm not going to do the ghosting thing. I'm not going to have a client that doesn't want to communicate. That's not, if that's what you want, then, you know, there's another models for that, but that's not what this model is. Right. So,

Richard Matthews: yeah,

that's really cool.


so what I want to get into then is I want to get into your actual story, how you got here, right?

Your origin story, right? Every, every good comic book hero has an origin story. It's the thing that made them into the hero they are today. And when we hear that story, were you. Born a hero or were you bit by a radioactive spider that made you get into recruiting, right? Or did you start in a job and eventually move over to become an entrepreneur?

Basically, where did you come from?

Suman Cherry: Um,

you know, it's so interesting because


I've always like loved people.


I'm a huge lover of you.


I'm interested in people. Like I want to know what their story is. I'm sure you're the same, right? Cause you do this podcast. I'm interested. I want to know what people's stories are, right?

I want to understand who they are. I'm just, I've always been interested in that. So I've always been in sales. I did sales,


, I did weight loss sales. I [:

You know, but anyway,




I mean, I liked it. I like that service based sales, right? I liked working with people. So then I did that for a number of years through college. And then out of college, I got a job,


working at Coors Brewing Company, which is so random. I got a job doing,


marketing and things.

I did that for a few years. And then

I had,

I had this guy call me up and he was a recruiter. And I said, what do you do? Like he was asking me questions about a job or something, some selling fax machines. Oh my God. Anyway. And I was like, what do you do? And he's like, I'm a recruiter. And I'm like, I want to do what you do.

He was like, really? And I'm like, yeah, I want your job. I want to be a recruiter. So I just kind of threw it out there. Right. That's And then like everything else, you kind of like just go on with your life. And then I,


orking at a company and they [:

It was a total grassroots, bare bottom, like training, like 200, 300 $400 $500 a day. I mean, they were watching your numbers. You were recording yourself on tape recorder, having to listen to yourself. I mean, it was legit, you know? And I did that for a long time. I did that for a number of years.


and then I dealt with something really hard in my own life.


I dealt with the loss of my first husband in my late twenties. So that kind of derailed my kind of life a little bit, you know? So I did, I took time off, but that experience,


something like that, it kind of just changes you, you know, when you go through experiences that are. Challenging. Right. And you kind of see who you're made of at that point.

these people money. Go like [:


I started working for myself

and it,

and it was fun, you know,

and I,

and I just brought in all these clients, these companies that I'd worked with before, they just wanted to work with me, you know, so I started doing that.

In the oil and gas world, and then it,


and then I ended up having the opportunity to staff this 150 million facility in Houston with like hundreds of people, and I did that for a number of years, and I made a lot of money, but it was unbelievably stressful, and I almost got divorced during it, it was, my daughter was really young at the time, and it was just so much, you know, like you were talking about, you can't, There has to be a balance, right?

ow? So that's what happened. [:


and that was, I don't know how many years that was.

Like, maybe 9 years ago. 9 8 years ago. And then I took some break. I took kind of a break from recruiting for a little bit.


and then I got, I'd get back into contingent recruiting again, and I started working with these partners, but I just never, like, I started thinking I hate recruiting. Like, I hate recruiting.

I hate recruiting. I kept thinking this. I think I hate recruiting. I have to find a new job. So I started, I went on some tangent of, like, you know, I went through my own healing. I mean, I'm sure all of us have done, a lot of us have done the work and I've, you know, having to go through all my stuff and kind of, and then.

I was like, I hate this. Like, Oh, I don't like this, you know, but then I had a client reach out to me during COVID and he just like, was like, would you be interested in doing some contract work? And I was like, never done a contract. And I started doing a contract and I just loved it. It was just totally different.

It wasn't, I hated recruiting. I just hated the way it was. I was having to do it.

Richard Matthews: He hated the model.

bit of it. I didn't like the [:


you just didn't have any. Skin in the game with it. You don't have that relationship with the client, you know, but when someone's doing you They're just more motivated to talk to you and to communicate with you

and and then I

and then I did


It was like really successful and then I was like, well, let's do it again And then I don't know a year later here we are and I brought on I don't even know how every I swear the time,


but it's great.

I love it. And we find great people and People who This was the job they were wanting and they're like, Oh my gosh. And then, and there's a lot of smaller companies we work with, just like under 50 people, a lot of them. And I work with the CEOs and the owners and the leadership team. And then, and I help them with the whole process, like just start to finish.

And I just love it. And it feels really good.


I just feel like this could [:

for people

Richard Matthews: Yeah,

I love,

I love that whole story because

it's a,

it's a classic entrepreneurial story, right? You're all over the place and then you realize that like, I can make this better, right?

I can do this better. I can add value here that didn't exist before.


and you can offer things to the market that weren't being offered before, right? That's the reason why


you're seeing the success for it. And even just hearing you talk about it, I'm like, man, that's exactly what like, I would never have considered a recruiter with the model that we've.

You know, the other model, right? The 25,000 workplace. And

I was like,

I was like, I can't afford that.


and it's not, you know, and I can do a good job on my own. It doesn't cost me 25,000 to do the work.

Suman Cherry: Right, but it

only costs you a few thousand dollars, like other five, you're like, well, I just have someone else do it, and I can work on other


Richard Matthews: You just have someone else do it, and I can work on other things. But for 25,000 that is, it's steep.


Suman Cherry: yeah, and the

cent placement fees. I mean, [:


Richard Matthews: That's like

a quarter of our income, right We can't afford that

Suman Cherry: Yeah like companies that are smaller, that are like smaller companies, but need to find good people and have the same expertise as, and honestly, I don't know how, you know, I don't want to, I'm, we're pretty good at what we do too. Cause we spend a lot of time with the candidates. We talk to them.

We spend the time like, you know, we're not just sticking something against the wall and hoping, but you know, and the thing is about the entrepreneur journey, like you said, it is like a lot of turns and it's painful.


it's falling down. It's a lot of. You


Richard Matthews: it's a,

e been doing this for a long [:

I got into my first business when I was like 11 years old.


and I used to think

I, I,

I convinced my father at, I can't remember if I was 11 or 13, but I convinced my father to give me a 50 loan on like a 10 repay back,


and take me to,


take me to,

uh. Large,

large box store and buy giant candy bars.

And I had a whole backpack full of giant candy bars on campus and I was selling them at like three X markup. And I made 1, 500 in sales before I got shut down by the,


by the,

uh, the,

the campus authorities were like, you can't have a business until you're 16 or whatever.

Suman Cherry: That's so awesome. I,


my, I was an entrepreneur as well.

Like I, I must've been like 6 or 7 maybe 8 And I used to like go and we would get, collect all the pine cones in the neighborhood and I would knock on people's doors and try to sell them for like a penny, a pine cone.

Richard Matthews: Genius.

Suman Cherry: But you know, [:

I've always been like very entrepreneur, you know, like always trying to figure out ways to add value and things, you


Richard Matthews: Absolutely. And

there's just,

there's just something to like, I used to think anyone can be an entrepreneur. And what I've realized is like, it's not anyone can be an entrepreneur. Not everyone


can deal with that risk reward stuff.


but great entrepreneurs can come from anywhere, right? It's like the classic ratatouille story on Disney, right? The,

uh, anyone, anyone can be,

anyone can be an entrepreneur, but


not just anyone can be an entrepreneur, right? You have to sort of be willing to have that crazy rollercoaster ride. In pursuit of how do I add value to the world,

Suman Cherry: right?

ke what your real purpose is [:

Everything comes back in like unlimited amounts of abundance, whatever that looks like, you know, But in order to get there, you really have to go through the process. Like, cause if I hadn't gone through the failures and all the things, like now I understand what my relationship and what needs to, you know, I need to understand, I need to take steps to make sure


that doesn't happen again.

My husband and I can have open conversations about what happened last time so that this time, you know, we've learned and we've grown, but if we hadn't experienced that, right. And we hadn't repaired that, we wouldn't know how to take on this now.

Richard Matthews: Yeah. Yeah.


there's so much to just the story of like how you get to where you are.

I love,

I love it. So

my next,

al world, heroes have what I [:

And the way I like to frame it for my guests is if you look at. All of your skills that you've developed over the course of your career, there's probably a common thread that ties all of them together that you're seeing this pop up

over and

over and over again. Anytime you're having successes, you're like, Oh, that's part of my strength.

What do you think


that framing your superpower is in your business?

Suman Cherry: Um, I'm,

I'm, I have a very strong ability to process information. quickly I can process information very quickly,


with my job specifically, and with things as with people as well. Like


I'm very intuitive in nature. And so I can like very much zone in, like if I'm looking through resumes and like I know exactly the types of candidates I'm looking for and those types of things, I can go through it really fast and process it quickly.

ay, but I can remember these [:

And so I can, I'm able to provide that information and it creates, you know, what I think my superpower really is. I have an ability to be, for people to feel safe around. I'm very authentic. I'm very real. I'm very, like, there's no mask with me. And so people feel the same to be the same around me as well.

Richard Matthews: Yeah, it gives people permission, right? Because that's one of the things


my wife tells me,


and one of my best friends tell me. They're like, you who's trust and it's green.




it's that, it's just that authenticity that when you are just... Who you are and you're not wearing a mask and

you're not

you're not wearing any, you know Any of the external things that keep people, you know at a distance for safety, you know


that people just have permission to take their own masks off and be themselves.

Suman Cherry: Yeah

Richard Matthews: That's a

yeah, that's a rare trait I would imagine,

Suman Cherry: I wouldn't know

if rare trait it's just something that


I [:

And so I do think it can be a hindrance for us because I think as adults, what can happen is it can lead to people pleasing. And I think it can also make us so that we feel like we have to be responsible for everyone else in our lives. And also that happens at work as well. So if someone else is in, you're uncomfortable to have conversations

with your,

with your bosses about, you know, you are having a raise or what's the next step for them, or there's an issue going on.

aid, looking from front of a [:

Cause like, that's what ends up happening, right?


we go into this people pleasing place or we want to get validation to feel good. Like, Oh, I did all these things for you. I did. I mean, I'm so good. Right? Like, cause that's what we did as kids. Right?

And then,

and then, but as adults, it doesn't work. It just, it was, it worked for us as kids because that was our safety place because that's how we had to create it.

But as adults, we have to put those boundaries up and then we have to be empowered and we have to not, we have to be whole safety for people, but through our own self, not through someone else's


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And now back to the Hero show.

Richard Matthews: That's one of my,


my favorite things about this show, right? If anytime you talk about superpower, the superpower is always one side of a coin and the other side of it is the fatal flaw, right?

Every superman has kryptonite. And if your superpower is that ability.


to be authentic and to be the kind of person that everyone just shares their life stories with the other side of that is like you said, it's like that people pleasing and being, you know, and learning how to set your own boundaries there.

So I guess my question for that,

um, is,

is if you are, you know, for me, my, my fatal flaw, I'm a very systems oriented person and like, I'm like, like, so that's my superpower is like building and developing systems around everything that we do. But the flip side of that is perfectionism. Right? And perfectionism keeps you from shipping.

And if you don't ship, you don't have anything, because you've not done anything. You've got, like, it's a really low bar to set for yourself. It's basically nothingness. So,


So I have to do things like, like, give, like, take


the initial, what do you call it,


like, design portion, and like, once it's designed and done, I have to immediately hand it off to someone else who's gonna finish and implement, because like, I get bored.

I'll either get bored, or I'll be like, I can tweak it forever and it'll never get shipped, never get put in place. And so I have to have Part of my process is to give it to someone else to finish right to have to push the publish button on and so if the flaw is that it is The people pleasing how have you learned to overcome that and rectify it?

So other people who might suffer from the same sort of fatal flaw can maybe learn from your experience there

Suman Cherry: Um,

I mean, I'm a firm believer in mentors and coaches and therapists and all the things space holders, whatever that feels to you, like I'm a firm believer that everyone,


own place to be able to, you [:


have that space held.

So I think that's number one for me. Like I worked with a lot of people that held space for me and I was able to kind of let go of that sort of place. What happens if I put that boundary up, like what, you know, and they're like, okay,

what does that,

what does that look like, you know,


and really be able to have that awareness that it even exists.

I think number one, having this awareness and the way you know, is if your life just feels like a series of obligations, if your life just feels like a checklist of obligations all the time, then it's that you're, because


you're giving so much of your energy away to everyone else, but yourself,

you're, you're,

you're pouring from this empty cup.

, I don't actually like that.[:

So taking the time to kind of have that place where you kind of rediscover who you are. Because the truth


is like, the greatest love story, and it's so cheesy to say this, but the greatest love story you're ever going to have is with yourself. And the more that you understand yourself, the more awareness you have for yourself, the more that you don't have shame for the patterns that you've done the things.

You just give yourself grace and then you say, okay, well I'm not going to do that again. You know, I'm going to set the, and you start with little boundaries, right? You start with little boundaries. You don't have to like. Go to the big boundary with the person at work who like talks your ear off and tells you all their marital issues and everything else and waste your time for an hour and you're like, I just want to get away from this.

Oh my God. I don't even want to be around this, you know, or

whatever's going on. But,

Richard Matthews: uh,

My wife has got the same superpower that you do, and


I'm the person that holds space for her, right? So


that about her, like it was [:

And I was like, Oh, she needs that person to help her learn how to set boundaries get really good at 15 years. And,


but it started off with things like, like


simple things. Like you can choose how you want to do your hair. You don't have to do your hair the way your parents wanted it done, right? Like, you're an adult now. And like simple things like that.


and stuff like, like, where do you want to go


for dinner? And she's like, wherever you want to go. I'm like, well,

that's not,

that's not what you want. Like, what do you want? And so like, just someone

who, who is,

who is looking out for your best interests. That's what you mean by something whole.

Suman Cherry: Yeah.

Yeah. And my husband's gotten so good at that as well. Like he knows me so well. He's just like. You okay? You okay? You need, like, something? Like, chocolate? Or you, like, make me some food? You know, like, it's always about food. I'm like, cook me something. But yeah, I think, and that's the thing.


let you feel safe, you know?[:

To be able to talk about those boundaries. It's scary putting in boundaries. It's uncomfortable because if you've never put boundaries in your life and you've always done other things for other people, then many, and finally take responsibility for everyone else's emotions, and that's just a control thing anyway, because you're just trying to

control like

Richard Matthews: when you get that,

Suman Cherry: when you get that

Richard Matthews: balance, right.

When you know how to set your own boundaries, set your things. When you do show up for the people who need that.

Suman Cherry: Yeah,

Richard Matthews: you can really knock you out of the park for that, right? You can give them so much value and you can help them in such profound ways.


and like, I. I've only heard a little bit of your story, but if you're anything like my wife, I've seen her completely change someone's life in the course of an afternoon because of how she can hold space for people, right?

Because she has that superpower and


it's very cool. So to see it in someone who's a founder and who's doing something with their business and specifically in like recruiting, like who, who would have thought, but that's, I mean, it makes sense as a matchmaker doing what you're doing.

Suman Cherry: But isn't that what it is?

the superheroes. The stories [:

And they're amazing and incredible. But like, chefs need to be it. And people who, superheroes need to be running organizations and companies and everyday things. Because that's really where the shift comes from. Right?

Richard Matthews: Yeah.

That's why I run this show. Is that funny? No. So

I want to,

I want to talk to you then about your common enemy, right?

Every superhero has an arch nemesis. It's the thing that they constantly have to fight against in the world and the world of business. We generally put it in the context of your clients and it's a mindset or it's a flaw that you're constantly having to fight to overcome.


so you can actually get them the result that they came to you for.

And for something like you, I would imagine it's probably in that world of like, hey, this is what people expect recruiting to be. And here's the new world you're trying to build. But what do you think your common enemy is in what you do?

the unicorn piece with this, [:


clients have this unicorn, not all, and I don't want to say all, but a lot of times what happens is when I first start working with a client, they've had a position open for a long time, and they have this like, essentials list of three pages long, and it's really not one job, it's like four jobs, and I'm like, no, this isn't one job, right?

This is like two or three jobs. I'm like, so, so I think that's number one,


is opening up their idea to They all want, they have this very specific, limited sort of idea of what a perfect candidate looks like. And a lot of it's from a skills perspective. They, the culture piece, they, Oh yeah, the culture piece, but the culture piece, like let's really talk about the culture piece.

ue. I think they're the most [:

And a lot of times those are the ones in leadership roles and those leaders have limited views, right? Because they all again, they're not valuing the values piece. They only are valuing the person that can make a lot of money for the company, but

it's more than that.

Richard Matthews: And it has to be, especially if you want to grow.



it's interesting. So like

on your,

on your first part, like the unicorn employee, I remember as a younger entrepreneur thinking that's what I needed, right? I needed to find a unicorn, right? And I was like, I need someone who could do all these things. I need someone who to be me. And I'm like, that's, but that's not actually what I'm looking for.

When people like CEOs are kind of a weird, you know, especially founders, CEOs, right? Like myself,


we're a weird bunch. We're like, we can do everything. That's because we have to, right? You have to learn a little bit of everything you have no choice. You don't have to learn to do it all. So you're like, when the people are like, you got to replace yourself in your business.

So your first thought is, so I need to find someone else who's as crazy as I am, a little bit of everything.

Suman Cherry: But they're not gonna be you

: Yeah, they're not going to [:

what I,

what I have learned, and hopefully this is the correct path, but that you find people. So here's my,


my, my thoughts is values and communication.

It's like 80 and skills is like 20%.


and as long as they can do the work or the work that they need to be done, can be trained like the values and communication are the biggest things. And what I've been trying to work on is all of my staff now is, and the way we've built our whole business now is single task, right?


we have,

we have this role that does this one set of things. It requires this one set of skills. And then you can hire based on communication and you can hire based on,


on values. And then it's just, it's like one set of skills that you're looking for, which makes finding people so much easier because you're like, I'm not looking for all these things.

I'm looking for someone who can do this and do this really well.

Suman Cherry: Yeah, I love that. I mean,

I think that,

I think that,


I, excuse me, I'm going to [:


very technical and there are very specific, you know, things that like, I do a lot of work with construction, like, you know, you, Project manager construction, you do need to know how, like, pre tech.

Richard Matthews: Like you need to know how to do

it, right?

Suman Cherry: Yeah,

you need to know how to do it, you need to know construction really well, you need to know how to work with vendors, and you need to know budgets and those types of things, yes. All those things are


very important. But I think the limitation is believing that you have to find someone who has, like, who comes from the exact same type of company that you've come from, versus someone who maybe doesn't have as much of one type of experience that can be trainable.

What parts are really trainable? Because some of them are essential skills. But what parts of it, and the communication piece is so important. Like, it is so important. I mean, how someone can even write an email? How do they speak to you? Cause, you know, we're the first line of communication with candidates, right?

if a candidate's rude to us, [:

Richard Matthews: Yeah.

Suman Cherry: Cause that's going to show up anyway.

Even if they have all the skills, it doesn't matter


Richard Matthews: it's so true. Cause I've,

I have found,

I have found that like, like we, cause


we're a podcasting agency, right? So

we run,

we run podcasts for all this stuff. So we do like


our major roles are all, you know, it's like design, audio editing, video editing,


writing, project management.


so there's only like five or six skills that we're looking for, and


we tend to silo those out of those skills, but like design, for instance, like I, they have to be able to be a good designer. Like the skill is a required part. That's like the foundation, but you can find a lot of really good designers, right?


it's not like they're a dime a dozen or anything, but


there's a lot of people who are really good designers. And what we're looking for is like, okay,


you're a good designer.


that's the, that's how you get in the door. And then it's like. Then it's the communication culture piece and the values, like that's what's going to decide whether or not you're going to be successful here, whether or not you're going to enjoy working for us, whether or not you're going to,


make it past the first couple of weeks.

Right. And that's


where, like, that's where

you have,

you have to focus on those things as well. So, you know,

Suman Cherry: I think there's another side to it. There's a responsibility piece on the employer that when you do onboard these people, these new employees, the onboarding piece is so important. The training, the, again, it's the safety piece, like they don't know you, they don't, they've never worked with you, there has to be that understanding that they're stepping into something completely new

and, and,

and there needs to be, leadership needs to create that environment for them to feel safe and to show them what growth opportunities might look like or what the next plans are, so to have conversations like that as well,


and also


eliberate training, not just.[:

I could squeeze you in for like a two hour place or whatever it is, you know, but like actual a training plan.

It's really important.

Richard Matthews: That's actually a, it's, that's fun to hear cause my,




my ops person and I, on Monday we had our ops meeting and we were putting together our list of like priorities and the,


I mentioned earlier, but our other priority on there was onboarding and offboarding and putting a, how we put


the onboarding training together for each of the roles.

And I was like, we don't have all of that yet. We have some of it. And like a lot of it's just again, because we're still a young company, I'm just doing it, right. And so we're,

uh, we're,

we're like, we, that's sort of one of our next systems we're looking at is how do we take each one of these roles and build like our onboarding training.

And so we've built our first one, which was just our communication standards in the company. And it's like a small, a short little like set of, you know, I think it's maybe like 20 minutes of things that go over all of our communication things, but it's like. I want to get systems for all of the things, like every, everything in there that's like training for the role, like, Hey, here's all of your expectations.

Here's how [:


and so it's not all in my head and it's part of like onboarding training.

Suman Cherry: You need a

blue, like it's all like, it's just so funny.

Cause this is what I'm working on my own business is this whole blueprint. Like what is the magic, right? What does the magic look like? And what's the blueprint look like? And taking all the ideas and everything I do and putting it on paper. And making sure it's like, like you talked about it. If I got hit by a bus.

Could someone else do it?

Richard Matthews: Yeah, absolutely.

Suman Cherry: I want to be able to create that.

Richard Matthews: So, so my next question for you then, if your common enemy is what you fight against, the flip side of that coin is what you fight for, right? Your driving force. And you know, just like Spider Man fights to save New York, or Batman fights to save Gotham, or Google fights to index and categorize all the world's information.

What is it that you fight for? What's your mission in your


Suman Cherry: Um,

I just, I think my mission is to create,


to create a better dynamic. [:


everything, my influence in doing that is my ability to help people Companies like owners and leadership teams have more, a better life really because they have someone else helping them with this process and they can go home and they can breathe at the end of the day and they can actually like have the time to spend with their family and they're not worried about all these things.

And on the flip side of that, on the candid side, it's the same thing. I want to put people in good organizations that have the right values and they have the right growth and are on the right, taking the bus the right way. And I want to bring the people


that are just like that, that want that and are like, that's where they're supposed to be.

rtant. We're there a lot. It [:

And so being able to create an environment. Or a way of doing it. That's very seamless and easy and very honest and just up front. It's just,


it's just something that I feel like is needed in our world,


Richard Matthews: So, so here's my, I'm going to switch on encouragement mode here for a minute instead of podcaster mode.

Own that. Own that. It's not cheesy. And it's something that like, right?


it's something that we need more of. Right. We need more of that mentality.

We need,

we need to see the better models succeed.

Suman Cherry: Yeah.

Richard Matthews: So, so own it and step into it

and, and,

and just own that super power. Right.


and my, my, my other encouragement on that is, is name it.

Right. Like

you have,

you have like these set of values, name it, right? Like I've got my, my, my sort of my beginning one here with this family first entrepreneurship, right? Name what, name


your methodology and [:

And I'm going to make the employee's lives better. And you're going to make a dent, right? You're going to make a dent. And,


that's, you know, that's what we're doing this for.

Suman Cherry: Well, I

appreciate your support. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, that's, that is what it is, right? I just want to create, I want to create a model that is new and different and that is honestly just,


better, more aligned to a better way, you know, that's it.

Richard Matthews: So

I was,

I was just talking about this with my son the other day. And I think you'll probably appreciate this, right? Cause

your, your,

your daughter's like 11 years old, but you know,

they get,

they get to that age, like right after 10, 11, where you can start having like real conversations with them, like adult conversations, cause they can keep up.

Right. They can like hold the,


the stuff in their head. And we were talking and

I was like,

I was like, listen, I'm always going to be a little bit jealous of you. And he was like, because we were talking about something. I think windsurfing is we're learning to windsurf together.


and he's [:

I'm like, you know, but he's getting to do it at 13, which means he'll have his whole life to get good at it. I'll never have that opportunity. And that's just one of many things that like our whole life and our whole job as parents is how do we put them in so much further forward of a place than we started, right?

That's what my parents did for me. And I look at like everything that they started with and all the things that I've gotten to do that they've never got to do because of how much they put in front of,


how much effort they put to make my world better. And I was like, that's just a small little microcosm, but the,


your, what you're doing in your business is the same thing.

You're like, listen, we're going to elevate this conversation. We're going to shift the world. We're going to make it a better place. And

it makes,

it makes it better for everyone, right? It makes the whole world, especially when the models are successful because other people start looking and go, you know, I like this.

I want more of this. Yeah.


and it's threats.

t is so true though. I mean, [:


you do as parents, you want to create these experiences for your kids that maybe you didn't have so that they can, you know, so they can have those experiences, you know,

and they can,

and they can grow and learn and have the opportunity, like at 13 to do something that you wanted to do, you know, at 40, you know what I mean?

Yeah. And I think it's And I'm

really direct with candidates too, like, I'm really direct with them. I mean, like I had a candidate recently and I was like, look, I really like you, but you're very negative. Like every, and I know you're frustrated because you've been looking for a job and this is a really frustrating time.

But I want to, and I ask them, I say like, can I be honest with you? And they're like, yes. And I'm like, here's, you have great experience. I can tell you're really struggling. I know you're really having a hard time with this. But every time you're talking about a company and you're not taking responsibility for any part of it as to why it didn't work out, that's showing something.

So it needs to be a [:


you didn't have the best experience here, but you don't want to bring that frustration when you're talking to other companies because you're a great candidate and you have a great experience and I know that, and she started crying.

It's been so hard, you know, and I was like, no, I get it, you know? And she was like, well, I appreciate you being honest with me. I said, practice. And I told, you know, and I, so I do try to like give kind of my two cents for what it's worth, you know, because I want,

I, I, I,

I mean, people deserve to be in good jobs with companies that like care about them and value them and pay them well, like they deserve that.

Like people settle for so much less than what they're

deserving. Yeah.

Richard Matthews: And there's a lot of us, right? There's a lot of good companies that will pay you well and will value you There.

Suman Cherry: A lot of good companies, people just don't

realize they exist. That's the thing. Like all the companies I'm working with are such great companies.

They're all very positive [:


you know, but. People don't know they exist.

Richard Matthews: Yeah, absolutely. So, I'm gonna move on. I got a couple more questions for you. This one is my,


my, my


practical question. I call it my hero's tool belt, right? And just like every superhero has, like, their awesome gadgets like batarangs or web slingers or laser eyes or, you know, their big magical hammer.


I'm gonna talk about the top one or maybe two tools you couldn't live without in your business could be anything like your notepad, your calendar, marketing tools, something you used to actually do what you do. What's something that you think is essential to getting your job done as a recruiter?

Suman Cherry: My phone.

I could not do my job without my phone.


gs, but it really is a great [:

Richard Matthews: It's a great resource.

Suman Cherry: But you really have to understand how it works. And you have to keep an eye on it because they'll try to charge you like a million dollars. You know, if you don't pay attention to that post before you know it, you're like, what is this? But, I think, you know, I think that



I think the,

I think the phone is like the most

Richard Matthews: So here's my question.

Has the phone shifted at all to be more video chat stuff like FaceTime, Zoom, stuff like this? Or is it still phone call, right? And I wouldn't use the old version of phone call because now it's like this, right?

Suman Cherry: Um,

you know,




do like Zooms and those types of things, but I don't know what other recruiters do. I'm pretty old fashioned. I'm just a very, like, let's get on the phone and have a conversation. Not some formal thing, like, let's pick up the phone. Hi, how are you? Let's have a conversation. Sometimes the next interview I'll do like a video or if my clients want a video piece, we can do that as well.

know a lot of people aren't [:


is people are working. So if someone's working


and they're busy, like they're at work, they have families, they did apply for your job, like. It's like, okay, I need you to stop everything you're doing. I need to set up the zoom call.

I need you to get away. I need you to have this 30 minute zoom call with me and just for the preliminary thing and then all this other stuff. So I, it sounds like a lot of hassle for me to be honest for the candidates. It seems like it would just be easier just to call them and be like, okay, well here's the job.

Tell me what you do. This is who it is. And I'm real honest with candidates too. I'm like. What are you looking for? And they're like, okay, well, I'm like, well, it doesn't pay that, you know? And they're like, okay. And I'm like, I don't think it's the right match, you know, or I think this, you know, whatever it might be, I'm very specific about it and I'm very honest with them.

The culture,

you know,

Richard Matthews: I think it's interesting that,


such a powerful tool, right? [:


I've shipped a lot of our stuff or what we do to, to video calls, but still like


I've got a, I've been surprised by the number of people are like, listen, the best.

Best tool ever is my phone. It's either one of two things phone or calendar. Those are like the two big ones.

Suman Cherry: Oh,

yeah I need my calendar too. So you can add that It's

Richard Matthews: like without the calendar

It's funny


my number of years ago she was like She tried to I don't remember what we were talking about But I was like listen, if it's not on my calendar, it doesn't exist And she was like you just operate your life out of your calendar. I'm like A hundred percent. Like if it's not on my calendar, it does not exist.

She was like, that's the

exact same perspective.

interviews with people, like [:

But I'm like, okay, well, AI is on a person. . Yeah. I mean, I think it, I think you can utilize it for, from a sourcing perspective, I used one, I didn't have much success with it. I spent a good amount of money. I wanted to use it out. I wanted to see what the whole thing looked like. I'm sourcing candidates, right?

Like, okay. They say, oh, they can get no. The level of candidates, were not even halfway the level of what I, that we, what we present


Richard Matthews: Yeah.


we have all this stuff going with ai. We do a lot of AI work with our company and Yeah, I,

we've realized,

we've realized,


I've realized something really important.

The AI is not human, which is, you know, we all know that, but so


the important part for that is, is what are humans uniquely good at and what are robots uniquely good at? Right.


and when you marry those two things together, that's where you get the superpowers. And so humans are really good at creativity and learning and community and culture and values, right?

bots are really good at like [:


two use a really technical term, irreducibly complex computation, right? Like those are things that,


that humans aren't good at. And so, so we look at things and we're like, okay, how do we take human beings who have these set of skills?


for our agency, a lot of it's creativity and make their creativity faster and better and stronger by using AI instead of trying to replace humans with AI, learn how to make humans superhumans with AI.

Suman Cherry: It's

exactly what I do too. I use the AI a lot with,


sourcing with like Indeed and different sites to go out and find things.

I mean, I use it, but at the end of the day, the conversation still is a human. Recruiting is one of those things. It's like matchmaking, you know, like. You're not dealing with,


a service, right? You're not selling a product. You're not selling anything. You're selling, I mean, You're selecting people. You're marrying two people.

an't really think of another [:

Richard Matthews: It's a

different outcome, right? Instead of lovers, you've got employers.

Suman Cherry: Yes.

Richard Matthews: Yeah. But it's the same kind of thing. Yeah. So, I gotta... I got one more question for you, and that's on


your guiding principles, right? One of the things that makes heroes heroic is that they live by a code. For instance, Batman never kills his enemies. He,


he only ever brings them to Arkham Asylum. So as we,


wrap up this interview, I want to talk about the top one, maybe two principles that you live your life by.

Maybe something you wish you knew when you first started out on your own hero's journey.

Suman Cherry: Um,

that I've done, you know, or [:

I don't, I just take responsibility and say sorry, and


I learn from it. That's really

that simple.

Richard Matthews: Yeah. Yeah, I love that.


and you probably won't be surprised to know this because you work in entrepreneurial circles.


but that answer. Integrity, some form of integrity. Has been the number one response to that question.


like 99 of the people that


I asked that question

on this,

on this podcast, respond with some version


of integrity. And it strikes me because one of the things that I started this podcast for was that cultural shift of, you know, our culture looks at entrepreneurship as villains. It's always, you know, every story you read on, you know, see on television or,


read in books or watch on the children's TV show.

It's always some variation of entrepreneur spills oil on ducks for money. Right.

Which is,

which is true, right? You see it in the movies and

you're like,

you're like, I remember last [:

Suman Cherry: and like the slick tack hair and it's like,

Richard Matthews: yeah.

That is not entrepreneurship that's not what it is. And the movie that came out last year, free guy, which was Ryan Reynolds.

He's like,



it was,

it was wonderful.


it was a great story, but


the crunch point of the story


was entrepreneur kills life for money. Right? Like that was the, like, that was


the villain was entrepreneur is bad guy because he's trying to do this thing for money and you're like, it's just not, it's not reality in the real world.


entrepreneurs are driven by integrity and driven by value and driven by this equal exchange of value with each other. And so I just love to hear that,


and to see it, you know, continue to be confirmed with everyone we've, we talked to on the show. So anyways, I appreciate that.

Suman Cherry: Good to know thank you

Richard Matthews: So that is basically a wrap on our interview, but I do finish every interview with something I call the hero's challenge.




so the question is simple.

Do you have someone in your network that you think has a cool entrepreneurial story? Who are they? First names are fine. And why do you think they should come share their story with us here on the hero show? I


Suman Cherry: I do have a really I have to like I do have some friends who have some really interesting backgrounds But I don't know if I would want I'd have to ask them before

Richard Matthews: We can see

if if they're

if they're interested maybe make an introduction after the show we always get some good


Suman Cherry: yeah, I do have

I do

I do have some friends to do some they have some fairly incredible stories and have been through A lot of things that are definitely entrepreneurs.

So I'll definitely think about some people put me on the spot there.

I'll have to think about it.

Richard Matthews: So,


in comic books, there's always the,


the crowd of people who are cheering and clapping for the acts of heroism.


so analogous to that as [:

Where can they light up the bat signal, so to speak, and say, Hey, Suman, I would love to get your help recruiting for my business.


and I think more importantly than where is who are the types of people to reach out?

Suman Cherry: Um, I,

I think if you are a smaller business and you have less than, you know, 200 people and you have a small HR team, maybe an HR team, maybe there's no one,


and you're really struggling to find good people and you're growing and you're expanding and you don't have the time to do it,


whether, and we do a lot of work in, right now we're doing a lot of work in construction and honestly construction of any level, residential, commercial.

New homebuilders, multifamily, luxury hotels, like all of it, GCs, everything.


if you're looking for project managers, superintendents, any types of estimators, like we, we have a huge network and we do it all over the country. We also working with high end landscape,


installation companies as well. So yeah, so


that's our clients.

Or, you know,

if you,

if you're just someone who wants to talk and you like want some ideas, like a company or something, and if you're a candidate.




you know, have, you know, looking for a new position and you're in construction or anything like that, you know, please send me your resume as well because I have new positions all the time.


you can find me on my website. It's Suman oh sorry. It's Um,

I'm over LinkedIn, Suman Cherry You can find me.


you can email me. It's really easy. It's

Richard Matthews: Awesome. So if you're in that space,


where you're either looking to hire or you're looking for, you know, to get hired, I would definitely recommend reaching out to,


to see when obviously you got to hear a lot of her story here today and just the kind of values that she wants to put forth into the world.


story with us here today. I [:

Do you have any final words of wisdom for our audience before I hit this stop record button?

Suman Cherry: I would just say that, you know, I think the key, and you probably understand this as well, is that you have to do things before you're ready a lot of times because you know, hiring is one of those things. You don't want to be put in a situation where You, if you have the opportunity to start looking for someone before you're ready, it's always optimal time to do it because you don't want people in your organization to get burned out because they're taking on a lot of other responsibilities and it puts you in a very scarcity place where you're just having to make kind of more desperate based decisions when you're hiring.

Yeah. So I would definitely say like you have to hire before you're ready. It's just one of those.

Richard Matthews: My,

uh, um,

I agree with that completely because I've made that other mistake where you hire after you're ready.


of capacity [:


our output, we start with the higher end process.


so, and I try to keep all of my staff at 80 capacity or lower because


they need the free time to think and to move and to just be human.


and like, and so if you're running someone at 100 capacity all the time, they're not going to be putting in their best work. And you're always sort of like struggling,


as a business to, you know, just get people in

right on,

right on time.

And so we try to keep everything at that 80 capacity. So I agree with that completely spoken from experience.

Suman Cherry: Well, I mean, it sounds like what you're doing with the company. Like this is you've done. Put some really impactful things and you're doing it. I mean, just having this conversation with you, I can see that you're really doing it the way that really is going to create a lot of value for your company and your people as well and your growth.

So I really think,

Richard Matthews: I

certainly hope so.

Suman Cherry: Yeah.

Yeah. I think it's amazing.

For sure.

Richard Matthews: Thank you very much. And thank you for coming to show today.

Suman Cherry: Thank you [: