Episode Summary: in this conversation, Brian, Jenn, Kristina and Olabanji delve into Brian’s plan to leverage his family farmland as a tool for climate action. They explore his considerations for expanding tree planting as an efficient strategy for carbon sequestration

The conversation assesses the benefits and challenges of this approach, and discusses the types of trees most suitable for this purpose. 

The discussion also touches on how these actions could contribute to carbon offsetting on a larger scale. 

As the conversation broadens, issues related to carbon offsetting in general are brought to the fore, including concerns about accountability and the effectiveness of the carbon offsetting system in meeting our carbon reduction goals.

For more information on the project and to order your copy of the Carbon Almanac (one of Amazon best-selling books of the year!), visit thecarbonalmanac.org

Want to join in the conversation?

Visit thecarbonalmanac.org/podcasts and send us a voice message on this episode or any other climate-related ideas and perspectives.

Don’t Take Our Word For It, Look It Up!

UC Davis article: Grasslands More Reliable Carbon Sink Than Trees

You can find out more on pages 226, 230, 231 and 202 of the Carbon Almanac and on the website, you can tap the footnotes link and type in 348, 220, 219 and 218

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Featuring Carbon Almanac Contributors Brian Tormey, Olabanji Stephen, Jenn Swanson and Kristina Horning 

Brian is a Real Estate Title Insurance Professional and Goat Farmer in the US. 

Olabanji is from Lagos Nigeria. He’s a Creative Director and visual designer that helps brands gain clarity, deliver meaningful experiences and build tribes through Design & Strategy. He founded Jorney - a community designed to help people stay productive, accountable, and do their best work.

From Langley in British Columbia, Canada, Jenn is a Minister, Coach, Writer and community Connector, helping people help themselves. 

Kristina is working on design theory and using the design process in everything. Currently in Prague (that it is where she is originally from) and her base is US

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The CarbonSessions Podcast is produced and edited by Leekei Tang, Steve Heatherington and Rob Slater.

Hi, I'm Christina.

I'm from Prague.

Hi, I'm Jen, and I'm from Canada.

Hi, I'm Ola Ji and I'm from Nigeria.

Hello, I'm Leaky and I live in Paris.

Hi, I'm Brian and I'm from New York.

Welcome to Carbon Sessions, a podcast with carbon conversations for every day with

everyone from everywhere in the world.

In our conversations, we share ideas.

Perspectives, questions and things we can actually do to make a difference.

So don't be shy and join our carbon sessions because it's not too late.

Hi, I'm Jen and I have just come in from being out in the garden.

I have been collecting red currents.

Raspberries, strawberries and huckleberries.

And I was a little bit frustrated because there is some large creature

that, that has been rolling around in one of my garden beds and has

ruined my little cantaloupe seedlings, so that I was trying to start.

So, um, I'm here.

I'm really happy to be here and I'm a little bit miffed about that.

Well, I love cantaloupe, so I miffed too.

Hi, I am Ola Ji, and I just got back from the gym right before this call.

I'm not angry about anything.

I mean, it's been a pretty simple day, but I'm excited to see you all today,

especially Jen, and yeah, it's been a while, so yeah, let's get to it.

Hi, I'm Christina.

I am looking at this wonderful.

Oh, Woodsy landscape.

So I'm really relaxed and happy and I'm looking forward to our conversation.

Uh, because in last week I have been focusing on

regenerative design, uh, writing.

So, Looking forward to today.

That's great.

Uh, and hi, I'm Brian and I'm coming Today's call with, uh, a thing I'd share.

I, I live in New York and it's, we have, you know, pretty strong seasonality here.

Where, when it is, Very pleasant and nice outside because we've

got such cold and wintry months.

Um, it's just a joy to be outside and, and we're almost at that

peak really long part of the day.

And so my days are starting even earlier than usual, and I'm going outside.

We have new puppy.

And, uh, the new puppy has not been helping me, but has been there with me

while I have been pulling and sort of expanding and pulling a lot of mug wart,

which is sort of an, uh, a very invasive kind of, uh, species here where I live.

And, but it's just been so lovely each morning to go spend a, a slug of time

out, you know, before the sun comes up.

Even though I'm just weeding, it's, I just love being outside and it's, it's

that time of year in New York where it's, it's really wonderful to be outside.

So I'm in a good space.

I didn't work out, but I pulled a lot of mug wort, so, so maybe

a little bit of a workout.

I pulled a lot.

Okay.

Well, today I think we're going to, To sort of talk through a conversation that

we, um, that we had almost sort of by accident last week, but, but couldn't, we

had some difficulties with our technology and it didn't get fully recorded.

Um, but this week we're gonna dive back into it again and, and keep the

conversation going for our listeners.

Um, We were discussing a few things and, and it led to me discussing, you know, the

sort of decision about doing some larger planting, uh, on the family farm I grew

up on, around doing, you know, some larger tree planting in part as a, a even more

efficient means of carbon sequestration than the sort of like, The low growth,

blackberry bramble, sort of e uh, what's happening on this part of our acreage now.

Um, and, and that's sort of just, so that's where we'll start again.

Um, and we were, we got into a really great conversation, so I guess I'll,

I'll start us there and say, you know, like that's a thing that, that my

brother and mother and I are currently sort of looking at and thinking

about is, do we, you know, sort of.

Go through this process and sort of invest in going and, and doing

a larger timber plantation on another portion of our property.

Um, and you know, Christina, I may turn it over to you cuz you had some

interesting insights on sort of, you know, carbon and versus different types

of like grasses and other kinds of things that can do carbon sequestration.

Yeah, we, uh, I heard about, uh, Comparison of trees and grasses, how

much carbon they sequester, and I did not find the table, but I'm sure somewhere

in the ether there is some table.

What's the best thing per acreage?

If I want to focus only on carbon sequestering and um, After we talked,

I, I sh I just was thinking because of the regeneration, uh, focus for

me, I have been thinking is that, is the tree it or is the prairie it?

And um, from the past I thought, well, what originally was done?

It was.

That by something like Permaculture does, creating spaces for people,

setting up food forest and letting go and, and not needing too much many

people and too much work to keep up with, uh, with the food forest compared

to just the re tree for lumber.

Um, So I guess my main idea was maybe it's too narrow to look at just one thing.

Mm-hmm.

And spread it into how, if I have a land, how can I not only plant

things, but also maybe create community that would benefit from it?

And, uh, Some kind of connection maybe to the world through internet by monitoring.

So doing the multi-layer, uh, approach.

Mm-hmm.

So that, those were my thoughts.

Oh, and also this might be interesting for listeners.

We talked about problem when you do seedlings, how to keep them without

being destroyed and eaten up.

That's right.

And so I.

I called my friend and I said, what do they paint?

Because in Czech Republic they paint this white paint on top of

the new seedlings right at the tip.

And so I called my friend who's ecologist her and she said,

well, it's paint doesn't matter.

Medium, that white paint that something is.

It wouldn't hurt the nature, some ecological paint, but what

they do, they add sand with high silica sand into the paint.

And so that sand is the one which is, uh, too gritty for, uh, your teeth.

It could.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So that's, oh my goodness.

That's the trick.

That's the trick.

So that's ok.

So for listeners, so last week Christina shared these great

insights and did send me on a couple different research missions.

I, I, and I have some things to share from, from one of those on.

Grasslands versus trees for carbon sequestration.

I'm excited to go back to that.

The other one was Christina Shared, cuz we were discussing that when

you do a lot of young sapling planting, you tend to protect them

from the sort of local herbivores.

In, in Oregon where this farm is, we have plenty of local herbivores,

whether they are the, the wild deer or you know, part of our large.

I, uh, heard of cashmere goats that often will get out of our actual

managed pasture and into wherever we would've planted the trees.

And, and Christina mentioned this painting of tree tips and I grew up, I've worked

at a timber company, I've grown up around tree planters, and you just always put

these like plastic sleeves around them.

I've never heard of this ends of the, the shoot painting.

I've never heard of that before.

But the sand and the paint sort of makes sense cuz it'd be so

unpleasant to bite and chew.

It's like, it's like a household hint for tree plant hor horticulturalists.

How can I ask how, like how does the.

How does the plant then breathe?

Like where, where is this paint?

Like on, on leaves or on the, the, I think you said it was just on the,

on the tips of the samples or on the, you've sort of taken, just dab

it in the paint before you plant it.

So some parts of it won't go through the, you know, uh, they won't receive

light and chlor, you know, the whole chloroform reaction won't happen.

Mm-hmm.

But the rest of it, well, the rest of the seedling.

Well, so not the, because correct me, Christina, it's not, you weren't

saying it's the whole No, no.

Seedling, no, just a little bit, just the tip.

And also I only saw it on, um, evergreens.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Oh, wow.

And so, At the tip there is the highest tip, and then usually

there are two tiny side mm-hmm.

Branches.

So just on the tips of those three, the rest of the seedling is green.

But those are always like the tender part of it.

So it's also what the animal's going for.

But then they get this unpleasant experience of sand in their teeth, which

having had sand in my teeth, uh, it is not a, you know, that's, no, that's no fun.

I would stop eating whatever I'm eating if it had sand in it.

Ah, Christina, I, I love this.

I can't wait.

I'm actually, I can't wait to talk to some of the foresters that

I know their friends in Oregon.

And ask them if they've ever heard of this.

I don't.

I've never heard of this before.

And so I was like, and I was searching the internet and couldn't find it very easily.

I was like, maybe it was my searching quality.

I'm really excited to go explore this more because it might be that

you've just started a little idea, like a little meme that like goes

and moves through other foresters growing a whole bunch of evergreens

on the whole west coast of the us.

You know, like maybe this will be a new thing to avoid all these plastic sleeves

that people put around, you know, young seedlings and it's, they're, yeah.

That's amazing.

Brian, what kind of trees are you planting?

We, we grow, uh, Doug fir and we, there's a, there's a whole

bunch of variety in there as well.

Maple and pond, Ponderosa pine and a handful of other, but

principally speaking, Doug Fur, um, used in your classic

construction, lumber kind of stuff.

When we're finished recording, I'll walk you over to my window.

Oh yeah.

Because I have some that are very, very big.

Very, very big.

That's excellent.

That's excellent.

Um, that's wonderful.

Well, uh, so I'm gonna go back to that other thing, Christina, that you

were speaking about that last week.

You shared with me about cuz we were, part of how we got into this discussion

was I had had to take a flight for work and I was sort of feeling some,

some guilt over just having to take a flight and needing to travel and the

carbon impact and was sort of talking about this carbon, you know, okay,

well at least maybe this, I need to go do some more carbon sequestration.

Right.

Uh, plant some trees in the way that I can.

And Christina had this interesting comment about grasslands and carbon

sequestration vis-a-vis forest.

And I found this this great article covering a big longitudinal study done

by uc Davis, a university out on the west coast of the United States states, and.

It.

To sum it up for our listeners here, without going into all the

nitty gritty, what I found in my sort of, uh, sort of reading

through a number of things was that.

Uh, in grass, in larger grasslands or grass fields, the carbon

sequestration is principally being done down below the soil level, right?

It's down in the root structures of, of these grasslands versus as

we look at the forest, the carbon sequestration is being done.

A small part below ground, but principally above ground in the tree itself, right?

Um, the thing we see above the ground.

And so if you are in an ecosystem where fires are either a natural or realistic,

even if not natural part of the process, and you're going to, the fire will pass

through and burn what is above ground.

Then you actually are, as those fires go through, you're, you're releasing

much of that carbon back into the ecosystem as carbon dioxide, right?

And so that fire takes the stuff above ground and releases

a lot of carbon dioxide.

Whereas interestingly, a grassland fire does release some carbon dioxide, right?

That's the natural function of the, the, the grass is burning

because so little of the carbon is sequestered in the grass itself.

That when the fire goes through, not a lot of carbon dioxide is created relative to

the amount of carbon that remains stored in the root systems below earth level.

And so this main difference in sort of, um, benefit from a, from

a long term carbon sequestration.

Side of things, in part breaks down into is the area that you're talking

about sort of fire likely or fire?

Not likely.

And like that was really interesting to me to sort of like be like, oh yeah, in some

ecosystems, This grassland methodology is net net in a, in a long-term way

better at carbon sequestration than even these really big trees that we grow.

Um, and, and in other ecosystems, the trees can do a better job of

carbon sequestration if they don't.

Get lost to fire.

So it was a really interesting, uh, research project that Christina

sent me down this last week.

I learned a lot.

Wonderful.

Yeah.

Well, and it, and I think part of what we were talking about last week that

this led to was sort of this idea of, you know, you plant a tree and, and the carbon

does start being sequestered, but Right.

Trees, like, they're not sequestering a lot of carbon when they're really small.

It, it's, it's a, you know, it's small and then it starts to grow.

And then Jen, if we looked outside your window and we saw these real,

I'm guessing you have some really, maybe some very big dug fur.

You're in the Pacific Northwest.

That's where my family farm is as well.

And like the trees get very big and very beautiful.

I mean, they're wonderfully beautiful and they really are.

I mean, there's a lot of carbon in these very huge trees.

Um, But we sort of had this interesting conversation, um, that Ola Bonge was

leading us in around, you know, when you go do something like fly on a plane

or go do something, and you sort of are attempting to offset it in some fashion

by choosing to plant a tree or do, or, or do something that's creating an offset.

There's this interesting, um, and, and maybe problematic is

the better adjective to use.

Disconnect between how much carbon is being sequestered today.

You might have started the process today in response to you just emitted

this much carbon dioxide or, or created the, the emission of this

much carbon dioxide, one metric ton.

And you might say, oh, I'm gonna go offset one metric ton.

But you're, you're, it got omitted today and you're starting the process

of offsetting one metric ton in most of these, um, programs and things like,

you're starting the process that over the life of the thing you've just done,

maybe the next 5, 10, 15, 20, 30 years, one metric ton will be sequestered.

But there's this real time gap where if you do that, you know, uh, if

you, if you sequester a metric ton over the next 20 years, that's very

different in the ecosystem than.

Releasing a metric ton today.

Right.

It's very interesting.

I purchased a sus, I don't buy new clothing very often and I think about

it for a long time before I do, but I purchased a sustainably made B Corp.

Mm-hmm.

Um, you know, made in Canada.

Fair trade, et cetera, dress recently, and they had the option to offset the carbon.

Mm-hmm.

Pay a little bit more for a carbon offset, which I chose.

Um, but, but you know, you think about it, it came from Toronto.

To Vancouver, so, so, you know, wonderful that, you know, all the

people are working in Toronto that get, make these things get paid well.

Um, it's made with bamboo, it's made with regenerative, you know, crops,

et cetera, and you do all of that.

And then it gets put on a plane and sent and it's like, oh, I don't know, like you

say, it's um, And they'll, they'll plant trees and they'll do all these things.

But when you know when is, is that enough?

Is that fast enough?

Yeah, I mean, it's good.

Is it good enough, is the question?

I don't know.

Is that a thing?

And I'm curious, Jen, so as you were going through that purchase, the company

you were buying from gave you that option, like inherent in the purchase.

You had sort of two options there.

It was like an upgrade almost.

Yeah.

Yeah, it was a few dollars more.

And it said, would you like to offset the carbon from the shipping?

And so they, you click a box and it gives you the dollar amount and it's mm-hmm.

Yes or no.

Um, with this, and there's another, there's a jewelry company also that I've.

I purchased one or two things from a few years ago, and they use, um, recycled

gold and silver, and they, um, they're also, uh, a sustainable jewelry company.

Everything is redone and they also have a carbon offset option.

So I'm seeing it in some of the places.

Um, That I, you know, the, the few places that I will order something from, um,

that this is becoming more of an option.

So it's interesting because like you say, when how, and how

long it feels, it feels great.

Mm-hmm.

To click that button and say, oh yeah, I'll spend an extra four bucks,

or whatever it is to, you know, do something good for the planet.

But in reality, When is that happening?

Yeah.

How and, and what is the implication?

And, and, and Ji had asked this great question last time is, does the

rise of some of those options start to make consumers more comfortable

with doing the thing that emits the carbon dioxide Now, Because they're

like, oh, but I am offsetting.

Right?

And so Jen, you started your comment there with like, I don't buy new

clothing, but for very rarely, right?

Like that's, that like reduced part of the three Rs, right?

Like and then when you are, you're doing it in this fashion.

But for many people, I think Alli's question and he.

He, oh, he's here now.

Sorry, Banja.

I'm gonna let you ask your question then.

He's back.

He disappeared.

He's back.

He disappeared for a bit, but he ran to the gym again.

Oh, don't mind me.

Thanks.

Thanks for holding up, Brian.

Um, yeah, back, back to the question.

It was quite, um, We want excuses sometimes as people

to do what we want to do.

And so we'll look for the closest out or the easiest way to do it.

So, um, and I think when we were talking about it was also

alluding to like tree planting.

Um, so if I plant trees on Ecosia, for example, does that

give me the liberty to go?

Uh, to continue living the way I do orit carbon the way I do.

Um, and I think that was sort of the, the, what the question was around.

And, um, speaking to what you were just saying, Jen, So like, um, so you buy

something and, and the company gives you the chance to pay, uh, a little

extra to offset the carbon that might have been emitted in the process of,

um, making or transporting that to you.

Uh, and so you just, thoughts around that, it's like, is that okay?

Um, because if we, if we really consider it, I think not doing

it at all is the best option.

Um, and only when we.

Absolutely have to, and that's when we emit carbon.

Uh, well, I, I guess, uh, it's, it's just for our listeners to answer or

consider, or consider, I would say.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I don't know.

I would like, let's put that question to, to each of us, you know, Christina,

do you think that as these options arise, do you think some of them.

Allow people to feel comfortable doing things.

They, they're checking that box, but they, if, but for that box that says

they're gonna offset the carbon dioxide, maybe they wouldn't have done the thing.

The, the, the box check makes them feel more comfortable doing it.

Yeah.

It's a complicated question because it's not one solution will fix all.

Uh, this little bit reminds me when organic, uh, produce started showing

up in the markets and in, uh, and they got, uh, Problems with reality,

what's organic and what's not.

So they started, uh, uh, you had to get special label and that label was very

expensive, so it shut down some farms.

So this kind of seems like this kind of beginning of where we have good

intention and uh, When it starts making money, that means other people will take

advantage of it and all those things.

And so the solution for the Organic Farms for, as I know, was know Your Farmer and

it's seems like it's a similar action.

What do you mean by what are you doing?

What is it?

Who is, uh, Planting the tree or creating permaculture gardens or,

uh, what community creates Mm.

Streets without traffic.

Is it because it's all fits into that?

Uh, space.

So, did I answer a question or did I go around?

I said no, Christina, I think you, I think you spoke to the question very well.

Um, and I was gonna turn it to Jen and see if you have any thoughts on that.

You know, I, I, I can speak for myself, um, that.

Again, it, it, it's the feel good.

You know, you get that little dopamine hit when you click the

button and say, Ooh, look at me.

I'm doing something good for the planet.

But, but how real is it?

Um, you know, how real is that action?

And, and how, how fast is that?

And I haven't thought about that before because, um, I think while it's

good to do every little thing that we can, um, as Ola Benji said, there

are things that would be better to just not do, um, in the first place.

So as we get more and more used to ordering things that are delivered

to our homes from groceries from.

Those food, food kits are really popular here, where people get

the food kit delivered and you, you cook with what's there.

Um, or, or, or ordering things from, you know, the big company that you

can get everything the next day.

Um, It's all those trucks driving around.

It's to deliver all of this stuff.

And it's the carbon that is created by being online, um,

that we forget about too.

Right.

Um, so I don't know.

It, it's it, where are we focusing our carbon energy.

Yeah.

And, and if I could add to that.

Mm-hmm.

I know that we're also talking about the offsetting of already emitted carbon.

So if you go ahead and plant a tree, you already emitted

the carbon and that's done.

So you go plant a tree to offset the carbon and it's gonna take

a while for the tree to grow.

And um, it's gonna take.

A long time for that tree to sequester that exact amount of

carbon that you've just, um, emitted.

So the time factor, uh, the time factor also plays a role

because it's not the same.

The, the, the carbon is not immediately sequestrated if that English is correct.

After immediately you plant the tree.

It doesn't just, it's not like a plus and minus thing.

There's some other process and maybe there's a couple other things that could

happen to the tree that you planted.

It might not survive.

Someone might step on it or it might be uprooted or it's like there's

a ton of things that surround the tree well, and thanks to

Christina's hack, it won't be eaten.

Yeah, exactly.

Exactly.

And so I think that's, that's something else.

And that's why reduce, like you said, becomes really critical.

It's like, uh, the best way to sequester carbon is not to eit it at all.

Yeah.

I, I had some time to think about this question you asked last week,

Olivan, when, when we were having this conversation 1.0 and, and I, I, some of

what I reflected on is, and Jen, your, your example was a great one, right?

So you went to go purchase this one, this one dress, and

it had an option to select it.

But what it didn't have with it was sort of really like a grade.

There wasn't sort of like an independent valuation of like, how accurate is it

that you're clicking and you're giving an, it's, you're, you're doing that,

you know, sort of, uh, intentional choice of giving the extra $4, let's

say it was to towards this purpose.

But you don't have a little bit of, like, there's not, I'm guessing there

wasn't like, sort of some accountability inside of whether that $4 really.

Achieve the goal of neutralizing the, the, the environmental impact.

But I was sort of thinking about your question, Ola Ji and saying to myself

like, well, if in the beginning what we see is we see people start saying,

oh, well let me go do it in this way.

Meaning like, just like Jen's example, check the box, four extra

dollars to go do a carbon offset.

If that's how it starts in the beginning, but there isn't necessarily accountability

and that doesn't necessarily truly offset the carbon in an equal way.

You know, like maybe that's okay if.

That's just how it starts.

But then over time we sort of keep the trend and the pattern changing

in a, in a way where maybe, as you know, one company has given, has

created that solution for the fashion company Jen bought her dress from.

And as more fashion and other delivery companies start to use

that feature in their website and consumers start to demand that, then

more companies will, will start up.

Who will go do that kind of.

Offsetting technology and offsetting in the real world thing.

And then they will be competing with each other.

And as they're competing with each other, then the part of the way

they compete with each other is they get people to prefer their type of

offset better than someone else.

And maybe the way they do that is they prove their efficacy more thoroughly

and maybe they, they create some accountability and like, and if it

starts to like, as long as it keeps.

Trending in the right direction.

It feels like, it feels like even if maybe the first step isn't a holistic

solution, maybe that's okay as long as there's like a second step and a third

step and a fourth step and a fifth step.

Yeah.

That was how I sort of thought about it after our conversation last week

was like, maybe there's like, as long as there's these other steps and,

and the first steps aren't perfect, and maybe they accidentally even, I.

Incentivize behavior that wouldn't have happened.

Maybe Jen, if you had gotten to that stage and that option wasn't there,

you'd sort of thought twice when you're like, oh, this is shipping from Toronto.

Hmm.

Maybe I'm not, maybe, maybe you would've not chosen to buy that dress

as a result, but now with this option there, you're like, okay, I'll buy it.

But in the long run, maybe those kind of things evolve enough.

The process we get, we get the engine going enough that.

A new kind of ecosystem shows up to create accountability and efficacy around that.

Yeah.

And, and part of, part of why this, I like this particular company, I'm,

I'm just looking on their website and it says, for every dollar contributed

carbon checkout offsets 2 45, 245 pounds of global greenhouse gas

emissions that would otherwise have been released into the atmosphere.

Um, And, and I'm not sure if how they do that.

Um, but this does talk about their not wasting, uh, leftover

scraps of garment, that the materials they use are compostable.

Um, that, um, the things they make are made to last and are, you know, are not.

Fashion that'll go out of style.

They're sort of basic trends and they've got all sorts of certifications

as far as, um, the clothing industry goes for, um, sustainability.

So I trust it that way.

And, but, but it's still, you know, I wish, I wish they were local or

I was local, I guess, but, but I think it's a beginning at least.

Um, And, and, and maybe, maybe more and more companies will start to come

online with more than just what feels like an extra tax by being transparent

about how they're doing things.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think that's right.

And I think it's brilliant the way you put it.

Uh, And, and I think you, you're thinking about it in a really amazing way, um,

Brian, because that's how culture changes.

And if we talk about it enough, if they're doing it and we're talking about it,

then maybe others will do it as well.

And if we continue to talk about it, then perhaps everybody gets to do it.

Um, and then the culture starts to just shift.

It becomes, it becomes the norm and.

And then perhaps agencies and nonprofits will start to do the extra

work of, um, saying, Hey, you're taking this amount of money to, for

this course, and how's that going?

Um, just like, just like people started or company started priding themselves

in being a B Corp and it sort of started in a similar fashion and.

Um, it's such a thing of pride and it's, it's even an edge to be a B Corp now,

and, and we, I believe that's similar to, it's similar to what's, uh, what's

going to happen here as well, so, yeah.

Yeah, I agree.

I think there's that sort of like, at least I wasn't aware of B Corps, I

don't know, five or eight years ago.

Like it wasn't on my radar as a.

As a thing to be attentive to as a credential of a sense.

Um, and Jen, just to jump back to it, I feel like at least in

the show notes, we should share this dress and fashion company.

Like it sounds like it's the kind of company our listeners

might appreciate knowing about.

Yeah.

Well, good.

Thank you for all this, uh, great conversation.

I love, I love learning.

Yeah.

It's what.

It was a great conversation.

It's wonderful to be part of the new story and very exciting to to tell it as well.

Thanks everyone.

Thank you all.

Thank you.

Thank you.

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