Professor Irina Shklovski, University of Copenhagen, has a powerful story to tell about her burn-out experiences.  In Part 1 she talks about how she got there, having an amazingly supportive department and colleagues, and how her body tells her when to stop. Implicated in this are issues such as being across two departments, defining her scholarship, starting a new uni during COVID, the downside of getting grants and what it’s like getting to the point of not being able to function and having to ask for help. 

Apologies for missing music - trying to get that sorted!

Overview:

[00:29] Episode introduction

[01:58] Navigating two departments…during COVID

[10:32] Deciding for CS, being uncomfortable, having impact 

[24:25] Journey to burnout

[29:35] Making the call for help

[38:45] How her body tells her when to stop

[42:32] Wrapping up

[45:17] End 

Click here for a walk-through transcript

Related Links

• Gender studies (TEMAG) - Linköping University
• Irina Shklovski, Uni of Copenhagen web page
• Kasper Hornbæck
• Pernille Bjørn
• Bob Kraut, Carnegie Mellon Uni, HCI Institute

Welcome to Changing Academic Life.

2

I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick, and this is

a podcast series where academics and

3

others share their stories, provide

ideas, and provoke discussions about what

4

we can do individually and collectively

to change academic life for the better.

5

Irina: if you try to do

everything, you will break.

6

Geri: That's the voice of Irina Shklovski.

7

And Irina did try to do

everything and she did break.

8

Irina is a professor at the

university of Copenhagen in Denmark.

9

And she shares with us, her

really powerful and moving story

10

about her burnout experiences.

11

In part one here, she talks

about how she got there.

12

And having amazingly supportive

department and colleagues that

13

caught her, when she did break.

14

Tied up in that journey to

burn out is a range of issues.

15

Trying to straddle two departments.

16

Working out how she defines

her scholarship . Starting

17

at a new uni during COVID.

18

The downside of the

upside of getting grants.

19

And what it's like getting to

the point of not being able to

20

function and having to ask for help.

21

Irina: I said, Kasper, I'm in trouble.

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I, I don't think I can do this.

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I'm, I'm too tired.

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I, I can no longer think straight.

25

I can no longer contribute.

26

I, I'm just in a fog.

27

Geri: There are so many lessons

here for all of us, and I'm really

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grateful to Irina for her vulnerability

and honesty in this discussion.

29

Irina: My name is Irina Shklovsky.

30

I'm at the University of Copenhagen,

in the Department of Computer

31

Science, and a little bit in

the Department of Communication.

32

[So split departments?] Well, it

used to be 50 50, now it's 80 20.

33

But then, since I can't settle

down, I decided it would be

34

great to have a 20 percent guest

appointment at Linköping University

35

in the Gender Studies Department.

36

So, starting in September,

I'll be 60 20 20.

37

I collect them.

38

Geri: How do you manage that?

39

to ensure that you are 60 20 20?

40

Because I imagine a risk is that

everyone, even though you're only

41

20, by the time you go to a faculty

meeting there you've used up your 20 but

42

people still expect work or whatever.

43

How do you manage it?

44

Irina: It's not possible to manage it.

45

So I know I'm signing up

for more work overall.

46

I think the Linköping

position because it is...

47

Geographically separated and because

there are, um, I have committed to

48

spending four weeks a year inland

tripping, so geographically and

49

Temporally, that is very circumscribed.

50

I'm hoping that I can then basically

allocate just a couple of hours.

51

a week, outside of that, for all

of my Linköping related issues.

52

However, given the fact that I will

have, I'll be the primary advisor of a

53

PhD student there, and a primary advisor

for postdoc there, that is likely going

54

to become a challenge at some point.

55

But actually split positions

are very difficult.

56

I struggled a lot.

57

I started my position as 50 50 in

communication and computer science

58

at the University of Copenhagen.

59

Um, compounded by the fact that I started

one week before the first COVID lockdown.

60

So that was exciting.

61

And the goal was the reason for

my position was to bring more

62

collaborative capacity and activity

across the two departments.

63

None of which happened because for the

first year I didn't really meet anybody.

64

[Of course.] Because I started and about

10 days later everything locked down.

65

I didn't really even have an

office in computer science yet.

66

So I met people on Zoom.

67

But that turns out to be quite

difficult to really do anything with.

68

Geri: When you don't have an existing

relationship, especially I imagine.

69

Irina: Yeah, absolutely.

70

So I struggled for a while and then,

and the intention was, that the first

71

semester when I started I wasn't teaching,

I was going to spend, I expected myself

72

to spend a lot of time having coffees

and getting to know people and going

73

to meetings and just kind of finding

out what the departments were like.

74

Instead, I spent that time

homeschooling my child.

75

And like everybody else, being locked down

and figuring out what the hell's going on.

76

And then in the fall, my second

semester, I started teaching.

77

Again, it was COVID.

78

It was.

79

At least in Denmark, it was

partial lockdown, so it's not

80

like a lot of people were there.

81

Everybody was wearing masks.

82

You couldn't really meet

people all that well anyway.

83

So, yeah.

84

After a while, I asked my, both of my

heads of department, like, what do I do?

85

And they said, look, we're not

expecting anything at this point.

86

Just figure something out.

87

Um, so yeah, that's

essentially what I did.

88

I sort of bummed along and...

89

And I realized that being half

and half in two very, very, very

90

different parts of the university.

91

[Do you mean physically?]

Well, also physically.

92

[Okay].

93

So the two departments are

separate physically, it's a 30

94

minute bike ride between the two.

95

Um, they're in two different faculties

that have different rules, different

96

norms, different expectations.

97

It's kind of like being in two

different universities at the same time.

98

And I realized it just wasn't

working for me, because when you're

99

new, when you're starting someplace

new, you can't be halfway there.

100

It's when all the meetings are important.

101

You can't choose.

102

You actually have to show up to all

the faculty meetings, and the section

103

meetings, and the research meetings.

104

And, because it's the only way to build

a relationship and create a presence.

105

Um, and if you're doing it

in two departments, that's

106

a hell of a lot of meetings.

107

[That's a lot of meetings].

108

And at the same time, you're meeting

people who also want to grab a

109

coffee, who want to get to know you.

110

Again, that's a lot of meetings.

111

Two departments worth of people,

and two very large departments

112

worth of people, that's a lot.

113

And so it's actually impossible.

114

It is impossible to feel like you

have arrived in both departments.

115

And COVID of course

made it more difficult.

116

So after about A year and a half I

started feeling like I understood how

117

the computer science department worked.

118

And I still felt like I had no idea how

the communications department worked.

119

Geri: Did you have a physical

office by that stage?

120

And did you have an

office in both locations?

121

Irina: Let me tell you, having two

different offices is not a gift.

122

I had to create a system to keep

track of where my books are.

123

Which office they're in.

124

Because otherwise I kept losing them.

125

And forgetting.

126

And because the offices

are quite far apart.

127

It's uh, it's a challenge.

128

Geri: You're not just dropping in

next door to have a quick check.

129

Irina: No, not at all.

130

So, so that has been,

that has been interesting.

131

And so I actually realized that I needed

to reduce my position in communications.

132

To something much smaller.

133

So that I didn't feel the pressure

of needing to become, a solid part

134

of that department, without really

having the capacity to do that.

135

Um, and now, as I dropped it to

20%, it now feels like I am spending

136

just 20 percent of my time there.

137

Because I'm like, okay,

I'm there once a week.

138

[For a whole day?] Usually for a day.

139

But it's okay.

140

Because I'm there once a week, I'm part

of a center, we have a meeting, and

141

it's much better because at least I feel

like I'm I'm doing those 20 percent of

142

my presence there is kind of engaged.

143

Um 50 50 is incredibly

difficult to figure out.

144

Especially if it's a new institution.

145

Geri: But are you still expected

to go to all the meetings?

146

Or do you just really just

engage with the center?

147

Irina: From the start I said, look, I'm

not going to go to all the meetings.

148

And then I realized that

was actually not possible.

149

If I wanted to become

part of the department.

150

Um, so now I have to choose.

151

And so, I've still, I've decided that

I want to become a stronger and more

152

central part of computer science,

and I'm going to focus on that.

153

And I will spend less time,

um, on communication for now.

154

And it's a choice, but I had to make a

very distinct choice because otherwise,

155

you end up with feeling like you need

to be part of it, to perform that.

156

And nobody can tell you what that needs

to look like, but everybody kind of

157

expects you to know how a department

works, and who is there, and what they do.

158

But that takes enormous

amounts of time to figure out.

159

Geri: Even when you're full

time, an enormous amount of time.

160

Irina: And so I had to actually

accept the fact that I cannot

161

fulfill the original goal.

162

For what I was hired for, and then

I needed to give myself time and

163

space to provide myself a basis

from which to begin building that.

164

But it wasn't something that

I could build off the bat.

165

Of course, COVID didn't help.

166

Hmm.

167

Yeah.

168

Geri: How did you decide for

computer science and not comms?

169

Irina: I think for a long time, when

I did my PhD, I was really, I was in

170

Human Computer Interaction Institute

at Carnegie Mellon University,

171

which is part of computer science.

172

And I remember being so extremely

frustrated with feeling, always

173

feeling like the social science

and more humanities work I did

174

was seen as something extra and

not interesting and not important.

175

Or needing to provide something usable for

computer science and otherwise not valued.

176

And so for a while there, I shifted and

I moved much more towards communications

177

and social sciences and more humanities

and spent some time, uh, you know,

178

building relationships with people in STS.

179

And developing, I think, a

sort of a critical tool set.

180

But more recently, my work has turned

around and I realized that what I have...

181

At least in what I want to do, it

may be far more effective in computer

182

science than in communication.

183

Because what I want to do is actually

take that critical tool set and move

184

it towards the technical practice.

185

That I love critique, and I think

looking critically at technology

186

and its impacts on society, and what

happens and how we do things, and why,

187

and what are the power relationships

and the institutional configurations,

188

I think it's really important.

189

But I'm much, much more bothered

by how the hell do we change that.

190

I'm much, much more

bothered by the so what.

191

And by why have we ended up here?

192

And how do we do something differently?

193

And for that, I need to

speak to computer science.

194

And an only way to speak to

computer science is to be part

195

of it and to understand it well.

196

Um, because otherwise

critique is just critique.

197

Nobody wants to be just critiqued

and be told that they're wrong.

198

Geri: So that's been the journey.

199

What was your undergraduate degree?

200

Just curious.

201

Irina: I have two bachelors in

psychology and an art history and

202

I have a minor in mathematics.

203

[Laughter]

204

And I almost had enough credits

to do a minor in computer science,

205

but I never got around to it.

206

I got distracted by skiing.

207

Geri: So really interesting mixed

background, I'm curious about

208

the journey from more criticality

to more impact and the so what?

209

Can you say any more about that?

210

Like, was there a time when you

were just happy sitting more

211

with the critical perspectives?

212

Irina: Well, when I was a PhD student

I remember walking into my advisor's

213

office And my advisor is Bob Kraut.

214

And saying, Bob, I mean, I want what

I do to kind of make a difference.

215

I mean, like, why, what's the point?

216

What's the point of doing this?

217

And he looked at me and he said,

You're in the wrong business then.

218

We do research for research's sake.

219

You're supposed to do it

because it's interesting.

220

And then sometimes it makes a difference.

221

You don't have much control over that.

222

Laughs.

223

And I understand that position,

and I was never comfortable with

224

it, and it was never enough.

225

And I think I shifted, I shifted and

really enjoyed gaining a much more

226

critical tool set, and reading a broader

swath of literature and engaging in these

227

debates across the different communities.

228

In part because I was never satisfied

with one community's position on anything.

229

Mm hmm.

230

And in part because I get

distracted really easily.

231

And I'm interested in too

many different things.

232

And, and so, I think for me

that was beneficial that now I,

233

I, I can understand and engage

with a lot of different debates.

234

And I can understand

where people come from.

235

And why they make the arguments they do.

236

And that, in fact, now allows me to

think about how do we make all of

237

that impactful and potentially useful.

238

In changing how we make things.

239

And I think it was

necessary to go through that.

240

And eventually you sort of realize

that you have to pick your battles.

241

You can't do it all.

242

So I, I eventually realized that

I was much more interested in

243

trying to talk to people who will

vehemently disagree with me rather

244

than those who would agree with me.

245

I'm trying to figure out how do

you present artistic research

246

to CHI, rather than artistic

research to SIGGRAPH, for example.

247

Right?

248

I mean, because I think that actually,

that has a different kind of impact.

249

That bringing these different

positions can then begin to get

250

people to think differently.

251

Like I have a new course

that I'm designing for the

252

Masters of Computer Science.

253

And I'm trying to figure out if there

is a way I can smuggle phenomenology.

254

into a computer science course

without them actually quite noticing.

255

Geri: It seems like you're comfortable

being uncomfortable then, because in

256

seeking out people who disagree or not

just speaking to the community who would

257

understand exactly what you're doing, but

speaking to a community where you don't.

258

What you're speaking about or

the way you may be speaking is a

259

little bit different because you

think you can make a difference.

260

That's work.

261

That's additional work to do, all of that.

262

Irina: You know, I think partly this

has to do maybe with my own background

263

is that, you know, coming from

Kazakhstan and then moving to the U.

264

S.

265

Always being in between.

266

Um, once you move at that age,

you're not really one or the

267

other, you're sort of in between.

268

Am I Soviet, post Soviet?

269

Most definitely.

270

Am I American?

271

There's certainly a part of it.

272

I've lived in Denmark for a

significant portion of my life.

273

Am I Danish?

274

Well, definitely not, but I am

no longer either American or from

275

Kazakhstan in, in, in predictable ways.

276

I think it's also because when I

was doing my PhD, I was different

277

in that I did a social science PhD

in a school of computer science.

278

Um, and I remember at my defense,

somebody asked me, How is any of this HCI?

279

And, And so I think it's, in many

ways, I find that I'm comfortable in,

280

in these, in this in between space.

281

It's not a, I mean, it's

not a comfortable space.

282

Geri: No.

283

Right?

284

From what you've said, it's

not a comfortable space.

285

Irina: It's not a comfortable space,

because you always have to pick your

286

arguments and figure them out and figure

out how do you, how do you position

287

yourself and argue in a way that you

might, you know, eventually be heard.

288

But I also find it more

productive and interesting.

289

And so I just inhabit that.

290

And I like a good argument.

291

Geri: It's fascinating.

292

We, we bring our whole

selves to research, don't we?

293

Like your in between ness, you've

just talked about it playing

294

out in multiple dimensions of

who you are, what makes you you.

295

Irina: But isn't that the point?

296

The point that, especially if you think

about it, um, from the way we reflect

297

now on research, with the push to

identify your own positionality, With

298

a push to really identify that we want

to avoid the God trick, we want to, we

299

want to make sure that everything is

partial and your perspectives matter.

300

It is, we always bring ourselves, it's

just often we don't quite notice that.

301

Geri: We don't notice, we don't

recognize where and how it influences.

302

And you say that we're now more encouraged

to reflect on our positionality and

303

that, but not all research areas do.

304

There are still many

out there that [Sure].

305

Do this, depersonalized, knowledge

production, de personalized

306

decontextualized knowledge production.

307

Irina: Absolutely.

308

I mean, right.

309

There's normative expectations in science.

310

We've built science to fundamentally

gain its legitimacy from working as

311

hard as possible to not be political,

to be separate from politics.

312

That's the whole point of how

science gets its legitimacy.

313

No wonder.

314

Geri: It also sort of reflects

Bob's response as well, in a way.

315

Irina: Yeah, to some extent, yes.

316

But I think I understand, I completely

understand now that position.

317

The position where, where...

318

Um, I think there is, eventually

I had to decide that I wanted to

319

fight this fight and not that one.

320

That these are the things I was

interested in and not those.

321

And that, my scholarship will

always be defined by my interests.

322

And in the end, he's right.

323

It is what's interesting to

me that's going to drive me.

324

But then my actions and my activities,

what I do, I always sort of beat up

325

on myself for not writing enough.

326

But in part that's because I

spend a hell of a lot more time

327

giving talks, and, uh, but giving

talks outside of the academy, um.

328

Writing non academic pieces or putting

together reports with non profits

329

and things like that in part, because

that's the kind of impact that I want

330

to make and I find is really important.

331

And of course it's also

driven by my interest.

332

But, in the end...

333

And I think what was also right, you

never know what's going to make impact.

334

And if something does make

impact, that's just luck.

335

But if you put yourself into

something, sometimes it might, yeah.

336

Geri: In talking about, um, beating

self, but not writing papers and

337

doing these other forms of output.

338

To what extent is that a privilege

of your current position because you

339

have like a tenured, full professor

position in a respected department.

340

Irina: Full professor position, certainly.

341

Tenured, absolutely not.

342

[You don't have tenure].

343

Denmark does not.

344

No.

345

Denmark does not have tenure.

346

Geri: So do you have regular

evaluation cycles then?

347

Irina: Um, to some extent,

The system is different.

348

It's not that we have regular, well,

yes, we do have regular evaluation

349

cycles, where we are evaluated overall

as a department, we're evaluated,

350

um, sort of on the sectional level.

351

Um, there is certainly career

development, um, annual career development

352

meetings and processes like that.

353

But also, our contracts state that

it's at will employment at any moment.

354

The university can decide

they want to shift direction.

355

Give me six months notice.

356

Geri: So, is there any career risk to

you in choosing to write an article for

357

a non profit or for some other external

body versus, another journal paper?

358

Irina: I don't see it that

way in part because I think...

359

Um, at least where and what

I do impact still matters.

360

And in many ways I do produce

quite a bit of academic writing.

361

I think mostly the beating

myself up is for, I actually

362

want to write these papers.

363

Um, and because that's the other

thing, you eventually figure out.

364

Um, if you try to do

everything, you will break.

365

And I've learned through experience

that everything's a choice.

366

And if you want to do something,

you're giving up something else.

367

And that's just how it is.

368

Time isn't stretchy.

369

[It isn't, is it?] No.

370

We really like to think that

it is, but it's really not.

371

Geri: It's the one

thing we cannot control.

372

[No].

373

Not an extra second in our day.

374

Can you share a little bit more

about that journey, because you've

375

had quite a journey there, haven't

you, to get to this position?

376

Irina: I have.

377

You know, there's an aspect

to being an academic.

378

Is that there's a lot of things

that can begin to happen.

379

You know, you try and you strive and you,

you write a bunch of grant proposals and

380

you try to put your networks together and

then there's a moment when all of that

381

happens and it's all so happy and it's

all happy but suddenly when it rains and

382

pours and there's just not enough of you.

383

And the interesting thing in the academy,

right, we act like, you know, it's a

384

little bit of an entrepreneurship model.

385

You have to go after things and get them.

386

And when you do, it's just more work.

387

Mm hmm.

388

In the end.

389

Yeah, right.

390

You know, the good news is you won.

391

The bad news is you now have

to do this grant proposal.

392

And you have to really deliver, right?

393

And it's always there.

394

I don't think we account for that.

395

I don't think, I think it takes

quite a lot to account for just the

396

amount of work all of this takes.

397

And it's really easy to put yourself in a

position where What you want to do is so

398

many things, there's not enough of you.

399

And, I ended up having to

coordinate, an EU horizon grant.

400

I'd never even had an EU grant before.

401

I had no idea what it entailed at all, and

I suddenly ended up being the coordinator

402

for this two million euro thing with

like, six partners across four countries.

403

Geri: You put this proposal together, you

led the proposal, like it wasn't just...

404

Taking over the coordination

from someone else.

405

Irina: No, no, I loved the proposal,

but initially the first couple

406

of times I applied, somebody

else was supposed to coordinate.

407

And then they stepped out, and

the last time we applied, it was

408

like, okay, well I'll step in.

409

Geri: So this is a topic that

you've had multiple goes with.

410

Irina: Right.

411

And when it got funded, it was exciting.

412

And then I realized, well, we made

mistakes in writing it, because

413

I had no idea how EU proposal.

414

I'd never done it before.

415

Now I know.

416

And, I, I put a lot of myself into it.

417

I didn't even get a lot of,

Publications or things coming out of it.

418

I still, I feel there's

a lot to be written.

419

I just haven't had the

capacity to write it.

420

But it took so much to do the

coordination, to do the management, to

421

do the kind of emotional and people work

that's required to make all this happen.

422

Not to mention, deliverables for the

EU, which are a lot of work as well.

423

And I never quite given myself a break.

424

And so the idea was I

was going to switch jobs.

425

I was going to, and my project was ending.

426

It was ending in December.

427

And I was like, okay, I am

going to start my job in March.

428

[So which switch are you talking

about?] so switching from ITU

429

to University of Copenhagen.

430

Geri: So the coordination of the

grant happened while you were at ITU.

431

Irina: Yeah.

432

And I thought I've been

finishing the grant.

433

And then I'll have three months.

434

I will take a break.

435

And then two months I'll take a

break and then March 1st I will

436

start the University of Copenhagen.

437

It'll be great.

438

Did not happen that way at all.

439

I had to finish the grant.

440

The grant also took, the finishing of the

grant, even though officially it stopped

441

in December, took another two months.

442

There was no break.

443

I finished one, started, started

the other, started the new job.

444

COVID happened.

445

And it kept going and kept going and kept

going and I had a new job and I needed

446

to perform and I needed to teach and then

there was COVID and then there was...

447

And I kept going.

448

Eventually I noticed I stopped reading.

449

I would try to read and I would

get through half a paper and I

450

wouldn't be able to finish it.

451

But then I would be stressed

out and needing to finish

452

something else and then...

453

Then I noticed writing got a lot harder.

454

But I could still really

sort of power through and get

455

things down just a lot slower.

456

By the time the fall of 22 arrived,

I realized I was in serious trouble.

457

Geri: What was that time period?

458

Irina: So this was all during COVID, this

459

2020, that's when COVID started, and so

460

new job, and it was also the finishing.

461

Geri: And the EU grant was

a three year, four year?

462

Irina: It was a three year thing.

463

Geri: So it's a three year before then,

and then Going straight into this, which,

464

what would be an incredibly stressful time

for anyone embedded in an organization,

465

let alone starting somewhere new and

trying to straddle two departments.

466

Irina: And trying to start straddle

two departments and having to

467

deal with sort of the pandemic

lockdown and everything else.

468

And I also, I was, I had I had a new

469

So in 2021, we hired, I had three

470

We went through this

enormous hiring procedure.

471

So in fall of 2021, it was in fall

472

I was, I was, I stopped, stopped reading.

473

I stopped, I stopped being able to write.

474

I was teaching and I walked

into my section head's office

475

and it's Kasper Hornbeck.

476

And I said, Kasper, I'm in trouble.

477

I, I don't think I can do this.

478

I'm, I'm too tired.

479

I, I can no longer think straight.

480

I can no longer contribute.

481

I, I'm just in a fog.

482

And he looked at me and said, Why

don't you take a break and don't teach?

483

What do you mean, I have a course?

484

The next week, Kasper walked somebody

into my office and said, This person

485

is going to take over your course.

486

Um, for the next month.

487

Just to give him all the materials.

488

It was shocking.

489

The course was developed.

490

I'd developed it the year before.

491

I had all the materials.

492

And it was amazing.

493

I suddenly was like, Oh.

494

And I thought that was going to be enough.

495

It was going to be enough to

just step back and to be able to.

496

And it wasn't.

497

I was writing on...

498

in an ERC Synergy proposal with two

colleagues and I suddenly realized

499

that what was happening was they would

they would be like, okay, you need to

500

write this part because this is your

part and I would try and I wouldn't

501

be able to so then we'd have a phone

call and I would speak and I would talk

502

we would have a discussion then they

would write it for me and send it to

503

me and say, is this what you meant?

504

and I would edit it and send it back

I could not produce my own text.

505

Geri: Did you tell them that

you were feeling just worn out?

506

Or were they just nice

colleagues who did that?

507

Irina: We had a discussion and

I suddenly realized, Look you

508

guys, I'm having real trouble.

509

I'm, I'm having, I'm having a problem.

510

And I'm clearly, I'm, I, I

need to go on sick leave.

511

I'm not doing well.

512

And they said okay.

513

And we submitted the proposal.

514

And I had other things that I

wanted to finish because at that

515

point my department and Kasper and

everybody said I really don't know

516

really you need to go on sick leave.

517

This is not working.

518

This is really not working and I was

terrified I Was terrified because I had

519

all these things that I wanted to do.

520

I had all these things

that I had lined up.

521

I had three students in the

first six months of their PhD.

522

I had other projects

that needed to happen.

523

I had a course that needed to finish.

524

I had all of these things.

525

And suddenly my department

said, Just leave.

526

Just go on sick leave.

527

And it was one of the

scariest things to do.

528

And I had a long conversation with

my colleague, Pernille Bjorn at

529

the time, who said, It will be okay.

530

Just do it.

531

And I, I, I realized

I had no other option.

532

Mm hmm.

533

I couldn't read.

534

I couldn't write.

535

I couldn't even really give

a coherent talk of any kind.

536

I could barely formulate

what I wanted to express.

537

I was not capable of

performing my job in any way.

538

It was really bad.

539

And so I stopped.

540

And my department was amazing.

541

[They sound it].

542

They stepped in.

543

I was paper's chair for

NordiCHI at the time.

544

And, and I emailed Eve Hogan,

who is the general chair.

545

And I said, Eve, I, I, I can't do this.

546

She's like, fine.

547

And so Susanna Bødker stepped in as

an extra papers chair in my stead

548

for a while until I got on my feet.

549

And she said, fine.

550

No big deal.

551

And I emailed my colleagues and I

said, I have these students and,

552

you know, can you please take care

of them as school supervisors?

553

And they said, fine.

554

We'll do it.

555

And then I didn't open my

email for a month and a half.

556

And I found it, I, I just, I wandered

the city for a couple of weeks.

557

I read silly sci fi.

558

I watched a lot of...

559

I realized I hadn't watched

TV for, for, for a while.

560

I watched TV.

561

I went and saw movies.

562

And it was coming up on Christmas.

563

I did shopping.

564

Christmas shopping.

565

I think it's the only year people

actually got Christmas presents from me.

566

Because I had the time to do Christmas

shopping for once in my life.

567

And I couldn't sustain

it for longer than that.

568

[What, longer than a

month and a half?] Yes.

569

So I slowly kind of came back, but I

still, I knew I still, I was not well.

570

I was really not well.

571

Geri: So I wanted to come back to that.

572

Um, but it sounds incredibly amazing.

573

That first time you went into Kasper's

office and just said, I can't do this.

574

What did it take for you

to, to get to that point?

575

Irina: I think for me, it's always

been extraordinarily difficult

576

to admit that I needed help.

577

Hmm.

578

And so it was pretty, it was, it was a

pretty big deal for me to basically walk

579

into Kasper's office and say, I need help.

580

[Hmm.

581

That's what I'm just wondering].

582

But also at that point I realized...

583

that I was not able to do

what needed to be done.

584

I was not able to teach

the way I wanted to teach.

585

I was not able to engage with

my students the way I wanted

586

to engage with my students.

587

And I think at a certain point I panicked.

588

I panicked.

589

I went into his office and

I said, I think I need help.

590

Geri: Because you did use words like

power on and things like that before

591

when you were recognizing that you were

starting to have struggle reading or

592

writing, but you powered on, powered on.

593

So this pressure on yourself.

594

Irina: I know that I

should have taken a break.

595

Probably even before I started my new job.

596

I know that I was burnt out then, already.

597

But there was always something else to do.

598

And there was always something

else that just needed to be done.

599

And I think it's really easy to

fall into this process where you're

600

like, But, I just need to get this

done and then things will be a lot

601

easier and then I'll just rest.

602

Geri: I love that, I just, and then.

603

I just need to, and

then it will be better.

604

Irina: It never actually happens.

605

No.

606

But it's really easy to convince yourself

that that's something you need to do.

607

And that's, as long as you get just

this one hill, just this one hill,

608

and then it'll be all downhill

from there and it'll be easy.

609

I think we all say that to ourselves.

610

And I just dragged it out too long.

611

And it's taken me nearly two years.

612

To begin coming back to a point where I

feel like I have control and capacity to

613

do the work in the way I want it done.

614

Geri: So control and capacity.

615

Irina: And it's taken a lot

to learn that sometimes.

616

And I want to do things But my body is

telling me to stop and I have to stop now

617

Geri: How does your body tell you How

does your body tell you because I mean why

618

all our bodies tell us in different ways

619

Irina: My body my body is funny

my body tells that to me in

620

rare with random inflammations.

621

And my doctors always get very confused.

622

When I show up, for example, with like,

I get this sudden elbow tendinitis

623

and everybody's like, Did you hurt it?

624

Did you hit it?

625

Did you...

626

Nope.

627

Just developed.

628

It's my body telling me to settle the

hell down and not use my arm for a while.

629

And it's annoying, but now I know

that that is, I've pushed really far

630

when that starts, begins to happen.

631

And I know.

632

Geri: So when your body starts telling

you, like you get an inflammation

633

somewhere, um, in the beginning, did you

realize that that's what was going on?

634

Irina: When that started happening,

I realized I needed to pay attention.

635

But until I went on sick leave and

actually really paid attention,

636

I really began to pay attention

to what was going on with me.

637

And I realized I hadn't paid

attention to me for quite a long time.

638

It's easy to ignore.

639

And then I started noticing.

640

When I was coming back, I was off

for about a month and a half, and

641

then I started coming back, and

everybody was like, Don't come

642

back too fast, come back slowly.

643

I could tell when I was going too fast.

644

I would suddenly get sick, I would

suddenly get these random inflammations, I

645

suddenly, my body would just push me back.

646

But because I was cautious,

I started noticing that.

647

And I've learned.

648

I've learned to pay attention.

649

I've learned to be okay with being like,

okay, I can't say yes to things now.

650

And I've also learned to try and

plan a little bit for times when I

651

know that the pressure and the level

of demands is going to be high.

652

Um, but I still struggle with

making sure I don't overdo things.

653

The past me always thought that

something that I'm signed up

654

for is going to be a good idea.

655

[I know].

656

The current me is not quite

so sure most of the time.

657

Geri: You talked about, you try to

plan now, like one of the things

658

you've learned is to recognize when

there may be coming up periods of

659

increased pressure and planning more.

660

What might that look like practically?

661

And that's where we leave

it now for part one.

662

If you recognize some of Irina's story as

your own, and you're also about to break.

663

Please.

664

I hope you're able to find the

support you need to step back.

665

And stop and get help.

666

And know that you're not alone in this.

667

And if you're not yet at that

breaking point, I'm curious.

668

What has struck for you here that you

might use to stop yourself breaking?

669

What do you take away?

670

For me, there were the reminders

about reflecting more on the

671

pressures I put on myself.

672

And the stories I tell myself

about just this one more thing,

673

and then it will be better.

674

About learning to listen more to my body.

675

And also about paying more

attention to my future self.

676

When I'm making decisions.

677

And one thing that

really struck me in this.

678

Was the power of having

amazing colleagues.

679

And for Irina, amazing colleagues who

didn't hesitate to step in and support.

680

And it makes me think about how we can be

those support people for others around us.

681

And we'll all take our turn.

682

I'm sure.

683

In needing to reach out

for help at some stage.

684

It's the give and take of academia.

685

So we'll be back next week with part

two, where arena goes on and shares

686

much more of the practical strategies

about how she's managing the return

687

to work and managing the workload.

688

And trying to take care of herself there.

689

You can find the summary notes,

a transcript, and related

690

links for this podcast on www.

691

changingacademiclife.

692

com.

693

You can also subscribe to

Changing Academic Life on iTunes,

694

Spotify, and Google Podcasts.

695

And you can follow

ChangeAcadLife on Twitter.

696

And I'm really hoping that we can

widen the conversation about how

697

we can do academia differently.

698

And you can contribute to this by rating

the podcast and also giving feedback.

699

And if something connected with you,

please consider sharing this podcast

700

with your colleagues together.

701

We can make change happen.