Alex (SO/SP 6w7 693) joins us for a deep dive into the often-misunderstood inner terrain of the Social Six — where loyalty is a vigilant scan for danger, and the mind’s ceaseless activity is less about worry than about building a livable world. From the outset, Alex speaks to the dissonance of being typed as a Six, resisting the caricatures and one-dimensional projections that cling to the type. 

We explore the deep patterns of fear and mental over-responsibility that began in childhood: a sense of being a small, visible target in a world ruled by unseen authority. Alex opens up about health anxiety, asexuality, and the complexity of labels — both how they can offer coherence and how they can confine. 

Alex also brings in the character of Zuko from our shared favorite show Avatar: The Last Airbender as a mirror of his own journey — from rigid loyalty to false authority, through crisis, to a reclamation of inner truth. Together, we explore how Six navigates the labyrinth of mental gates that must be opened before love can be received, and how trust — in the self, in others, in life — is painstakingly built, tested, and sometimes, finally, allowed.

LINKS

Learn at The Enneagram School

https://theenneagramschool.com/

Intro Course

https://www.theenneagramschool.com/intro-enneagram-course

Get Typed

https://www.enneagrammer.com/

Sinsomnia Podcast (Dreams)

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/sinsomnia/id1684154994

House of Enneagram

https://www.youtube.com/@houseofenneagram 

TIMESTAMPS

00:00 - Intro

02:31 - Participating in Enneagram communities, creating memes while waiting for typing results, reacting to being type 6, unpacking the projections onto 6, "finding a mental home"

12:27 - Being a 'cog in the machine', erasing individualization, a "thought-terminating cliche", having mental tweezers 

17:10 - Childhood memories, fearing authority larger than parents, fear/anxiety of being a "sitting duck" to external powers

23:36 - "Going haywire", the vetting mechanism of 6, fearing and joking about death

29:01 - Ketamine treatment, expanding perspectives assisting with anxiety, limited "mental real estate", social narratives and afterthoughts, an unreliable narrator

38:09 - 6s not taking responsibility for personal perspectives, pinging off of others, judgment off of 'needing others', self-honoring and life-giving, self-sufficiency narratives

46:03 - 6s archetypal connection to labels, being asexual, attention to collective ideals/gaze

52:30 - self-deprecation being limiting, therapy, social rejection, deconstructing 'what I deserve to have/want", identifying the super-ego

59:11 - not making progress, fear of social vulnerability, 6's inner splitting, exploring the underdog position

01:06:59 - Avatar the Last Airbender; relating to the Zuko character arch, shedding the false authorities, enacting personal will, changing inherited reality perspectives

01:16:22 - 'vetting' self-love, matrix of mental gates, a core need to have 'right' orientation, observing the other center's participation

01:23:54 - Outro

CREDITS

Interview by Josh Lavine 

Edited by Kristen Oberly 

Music by Coma-Media from Pixabay 

Coma-Media: https://pixabay.com/users/coma-media-24399569/ 

Pixabay: https://pixabay.com/ 

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#enneagram #enneagramtypes #enneagram6

Alex 0:00

And it's like,

Alex 0:02

some things

Alex 0:05

I don't vet at all, where other things I'm like, Hmm, like, these people are specifically don't know my type, and they're conspiring to make me go not crazy. But you know, these people don't know my type, they don't know anything, like, vet, VT, vet. And then another person says, Hey, Alex, you look good in green. And I'm like, I believe you uncritically.

Alex 0:26

So the process is it definitely is tied in with the ego.

Josh Lavine 0:34

Welcome to another episode of what it's like to be you. I'm Josh Lavon, your host, and on this show, I interview accurately typed guests about their experience as their Enneagram type. Today, my guest is Alex Bassett, who is a social self pros, 6.7 with 693, tri fix, and that's 9.8 3.4

Josh Lavine 0:49

Alex 3:47

I was, like, moderating a Facebook group, and we had like, a, like, a close group chat, and we just talked all the time about all our ideas and stuff. And I'm like, Hey, I also earn the Learn the Enneagram, and in that process, you know, I got deeper knowledge of all the types and the subtypes, as they call them. You know, this is before I got to,

Alex 4:06

Alex 5:00

Uh, you maybe unique compared to everyone else's. I just made a shitload of Enneagram memes while I was waiting for not not only just Enneagram in general, but around being typed like i They're all low quality. They're not they're not all winners, but a lot of them, I think, resonated with people in the group. And it was, it was pretty fun. You know, people thought I was insane. And, you know, they're not wrong. But, uh, when I finally got the type, it was just like, these motherfuckers don't know anything. They don't know me. They don't know like, you know, they just saw this one thing and ran with it, and it's just, you know, that was my initial in person impression. But then I'd like, as the month went on, I just like, well, let me, like, actually think about this and think about, you know, how they view five versus how I view five versus, you know what five kind of is, and just sort of realizing that there is sort of a hollowness or maybe single pursuit to five that I don't have, you know,

Josh Lavine 6:05

and that I think this, this is, this is pretty interesting territory, like this. Okay, let me think about how to put this you. And this is such a common experience for people who get typed is that they have, well, not just the fact that they could type to six is but that they that people enter into getting typed with ideas about what type they are and ideas about what each type is in the Enneagram. And often, part of the journey of learning the Enneagram is actually realizing how much of, for example, how much of your own type you've projected onto other other types, how much, how different each of the types are from your initial impression. And so there's a lot of texturizing and expanding of each of the type definitions that you get as you kind of go deeper and deeper into the Enneagram. And one of the things so what I'm hearing from you is that you had an idea of type six that was repulsive to you because of some facets of it that were in the social context, in milieu that you were swimming in, that were part of the definition of sex that you had identified, that you had pinned on six, right? And then we got type two six. It was like, gross, yeah. And you more identified with an intellectual independence and just the cerebral intensity of five, which, by the way, cerebral intensity is very much six. Quality to six is, it's the center of the mental center, right? And so anyway, so I can say more about Yeah. So what are the what? What are, can you help texturize that? Like, what are some other aspects of the six that you had been holding in your head that when you got typed as a six, you felt repulsed by,

Alex 7:50

yeah, so another thing so sort of how I viewed six, because I tried to, like, put it out to, like, what function these types have, you know, in the greater scope of, like, human evolution, right? So just like, sorry, I'm

Josh Lavine 8:05

just laughing because that's very social self press, but yeah, go ahead.

Alex 8:09

You love to see it. I do going to sword club anyway. So I kind of saw six as sort of the gatekeepers of progress in the world. And this is before I really got into the triads. Like, I saw six as sort of the people who block it, the people who are like, No, we cling to tradition. We've always done it this way. And it's just like, and that's how a lot of people view it, because they put their own type projections onto six. So that's what you hear. Is just like, oh, like, these are the people, when you want to make the world a better place, they're going to get in your way because they don't like change. So a lot of that's like, mental control

Josh Lavine 8:49

because, because they're attached into traditional frameworks that they have a hard time letting go of, in the traditional framing of

Alex 8:55

six, right, right? Yeah. And, I mean, and that's not totally untrue, so you know, you got to live with that, sure, but like you know, you learn to realize that the people also trying to break down the gates are also sixes. And I think you know once, but so it's like it's just discovering all these dualities within six instead of this, just one part that's advertised is has been the biggest learning journey of not only learning about six, but accepting it within,

Josh Lavine 9:28

yeah, okay, I think this is a there's a lot of nuance to this point. You're saying because sixes are the attachment type of the mental center, and are, I mean, my language for it is that they're piecing together a map of reality based on other people's maps, consciously or unconsciously. And one of the things that can happen is that, you know, if a six say grows up in a particular if a six like sometimes six can be. Traditionalists, like they grew up in a particular environment, exactly particular culture, then they can anchor into the values and the perceptions and general point of view of that culture and feel like that's a it's it's helping it helps them have a sense of certainty. Helps them stabilize. It helps them feel like this is who I am. And at the same time, there's so many sixes that have a like, powerful defiant streak against the authorities that they grew up with, and that coexist in the same type. So you have this kind of like loyalism. At the same time you have this deep questioning. And it's kind of like as a six maybe a way to put it is that, like, there's this deep desire, at least as I understand it, you told me, if you've experienced it this way, there's this deep desire to commit to something, to to know what I'm devoted to, to know what I'm anchoring to. Is like, this is my point of view. This is what I feel certain about. But sixes don't want to blindly accept something, and so there's a lot of like, internal vetting that goes on before they actually ingest and take in and put, kind of like install it into the foundation of the

framework, yeah? Finding a mental home, essentially finding a mental health, beautiful way to put it. And I would say, like, in the process continues like, I think you know that that's also part of the duality, like, the questioning or like. And I think the questioning happens no matter what it's just is it voiced or not? At least in my estimation, just because sometimes it's just like, okay, you know, is this really worth, you know, going to war over it's like, no, especially when you have your own aims and ideas and things you want to do, right? The mental home is for safety, right? But it's, it's also like a base to explore, at least, that's how I see it. So like, how far can you reach out? And I think the six can get trapped. But also it can, I don't know. It's just all this duality. It's making my brain, no, I'm kidding, exploring. I think they can get trapped within, not accepting the home, but also, just like getting too stuck inside it. That's, that's how I see it. One

of the other things that you mentioned about the stereotypes of six is that they're like a cog in the machine,

yeah? Like, where the focus is put on their function, the the functionality within the system, right? That's, that's immediately erasing individuality by by definition, right? Yes, they're not actors. They don't have agency. They're just keeping the machine going. And it's, you know, there's a bit of a predestination thing that could go in there, right? It's like, I'm individually, you know, a copy of the machine. But, yeah, it just, it's a thought terminating cliche is what I'll call it. It's a way to stop the exploration. It's a way to stop the discussion. It's a way to move on, to get to the more the interesting part, right? When it's just like, well, like, we have this whole book here, like, just go to the thesaurus, go to the glossary. You know, it's all organized, right?

So your reaction is against actually, I love what you're saying. Your reaction is a thought. What was it? What was the phrase you said, thought terminating cliche, a thought terminating cliche. That is such a great phrase.

So nines get it too. And three is obviously, I mean every type, in a way, but I think the attachment types, especially are victims or perpetrators.

So the way I'm taking it, what you're saying is that your objection to the cog in the machine metaphor is that, first of all, it de individualizes six definitionally, yeah, and it's as if it's as if it's saying that sixes either are born into a system and then are happy to sort of live out their lives as the cogs that they have been predestined to be, or that sixes are, you know, like they enter an organization, for example, And then they just, like, find this little place and little place that they can functionally fit and keep the gears turning and keep the thing going. But they're not offering any insight or originality or kind of improving the system. They're just kind of like, make keeping it going. You could say, Yeah, that would be the the like, the neutered stereotype of of the six from that framework of, like, the cog in the machine. And I think what you're saying is that, and which I agree with, is that sixes are like, Yeah, this. So they may, they may, like, participate in a structure or a system, but they're bringing this, this mental. And this questioning mind, where it's like this, like you could say that the individual out the individuality of six, is partly discovered in taking on a framework and then noticing the inconsistencies, and then poking at it, and then, kind of like you're doing in this conversation right now, like, Hey, I entered the Enneagram, and then I noticed these stereotypes, and I compared that to my experience, and I noticed that that was wrong. And so here we are in this conversation, kind of like taking our mental tweezers and pulling up, pulling apart these distinctions.

Yeah. It's like, yeah, you're not. They're not. They're sort of seeing like, Oh, you're in this position. This is your position, and you don't get away from it. It's like, well, no, like, the six can basically take anything you give them and make it better mentally. Like, yeah, yeah. And obviously, and then take, like, not only, and I think a lot of innovation can be brought about that way too, even if it's not necessarily, like, creating a new process or, you know, new thing that changes the world because, because that's luck anyway, right? There's a lot of, it's just stumbled upon serendipitous like, but, and see, we're analyzing that too, right? What? What's the process of not being a cog in the machine? But the six is often not, is it's just if they're giving the given the freedom to, I mean, or they give themselves the freedom. You know, we don't really live in a free world, but like with some modicum of freedom, like, you know, they can create a whole new system with its own cogs, with its own it's, it's just, there's just so much that goes into it that it's just putting it into this one role. It is just lazy and intellectually like, it's like, you know, less than nothing about this type, if you think that way, like you just like, oh, that's, that's someone in a position. All right, done thinking about it, which could be a projection. I think I want

to get into personal territory with you. And this I'll

maybe I want to disarm the traps.

Okay, I want to I want to start with your childhood. In your in what you submitted as kind of like prep for this interview you had. I want to read something you wrote about your childhood. You said you're immediately concerned with authority that was greater than your parents as a kid. And you said, I've been mostly ambivalent to them for my life, and didn't really care about their comings and goings, speaking about your parents, but your parents, but to spin it as a sixth thing I was definitely afraid of, in quotes, God's judgment and the weather which which have been authorities of humans since ancient times. The actual example would be me waking up during rough thunderstorms as a kid and just watching the weather weather channel until the storm ended.

Yep, definitely. So

what was happening there? Can you take us back into that memory

of watching the weather channel?

Yeah? Like, what were you Yeah, what were you thinking and fearing or feeling at that?

I was just basically told what tornadoes can do to a house, and I'm like, Well, you know, it's very loud outside. Clearly, there's about to be a tornado, and, you know, we're all gonna die, right? So, yeah, I would just get up and be like, Okay, what's this? What's the situation, all right, what's the so I would just get up. It would be like, 330 in the morning, right? I'm definitely, like, I'm like, seven, you know, I'm definitely supposed to be in bed or whatever. And I would just turn on The Weather Channel and just like, watch and see the warnings and watches and, you know, the estimated time of ending for everything going on. And I would just be, like, locked in, zoned in, into and I think I never got, like, reprimanded or in trouble. Like, I think my parents just saw and they're like, Okay, this is how this kid is like, so it's fine. And, you know, I guess the Weather Channel is an authority to me, at least it was when I was seven. You know, I haven't gravitated too much from it now, but you know, we can investigate it, you know, we can expose the Weather Channel. Um, but, yeah, yeah, it was definitely a big thing. And then just like, learning about religion was definitely like, okay, like, yeah, you can get in trouble with your parents, but like, there's like, you know, your parents have, like, there's like, this thing higher than your parents, and they can just, like, make you go to hell or whatever. And I'm just like, you know, and that kind of stuck with

me, okay, so that's what you mean by authority is greater than parents, yeah. And at the at the time when you, when you were watching thunderstorms, were you thinking about it as an act of God?

No, okay, I definitely didn't see it as an act of God, because I wasn't able, well, yeah, I wasn't able to connect the two yet. I. Uh, but it's just like, unconsciously, sort of, it was there.

So when you're talking about the weather has been an authority of humans in sanctioned times. That's more of an adult interpretation, not what you were holding. It's like seven year old. You

are subject, we are subject to all of these comings and goings of Nate. I mean, humans and natures, gods, all that we're just, we're just like sitting ducks, right? And, you know, all the innovations of human is just just kind of been to manage that, to be less vulnerable to all of that stuff. I guess that's the isolation practices. Could be that too for me myself.

That's a, that's a good and interesting point,

human weather. What do

you mean by human weather? Like

I'm trying to protect myself from the human weather and the Enneagram is like the weather channel. Okay? I just made that up. I don't know how good.

Okay, okay, but I guess I want to pull go back to this childhood story, because it's what's striking to me about it is that it's, well, there's, there's, I've never heard of a seven year old just staring at the Weather Channel and waiting for a storm to pass. I mean, it's kind of like, it's kind of a a stark image, you could say, of like fear and trying to understand what's happening and aware of a power that is greater than you that could destroy your house. And just that, that intensity of awareness as a seven year old, and then the fixedness of your attention on the on the Weather Channel screen, just to monitor the progress of this storm is, is kind of amazing. And it's kind of, I don't know there's something, I mean, there's something very six about it, in the sense that it's like, I'm afraid of a thunderstorm. I I want to know what's going on, a sense of a sense of control and soothing myself by having, by getting more information about the thing, anything else that you'd pull out of that,

yeah, it's actually, what, like, 2019 I guess I could have made that an example, too. In 29 1819, I like, had like, a horrible health anxiety episode, right? And it's like, you know, you hear the stories of people just like, going on WebMD, like, all right, you're gonna die, right? So you go to the authority, which is not the authority. The authority could be a doctor, you know, depending on how severe your health anxiety is. Well, for me, it was, fortunately, but, uh, you know, just like, I just discovered something on my arm, and then was, like, suddenly crazy for like, six months. Just like, reading all the links, I'm like, oh, okay, I have necrosis in my hands, and I have some, like, you know, weird, like, brain disease no one's ever heard of, or, like, you know, or anything and everything. And, like, I remember asking, like, hair, like, I would go get my hair cut, and I'm like, Hey, is there like, anything, like, red and pulsating on my scalp right now? And they're like, no, what the like? So, so I think that's a way of that authority, seeking, scrambling and just being, I think, and just like, going haywire because you can't find safety because you don't know what's going on. It's like, compared to when covid happened, like I was, I mean, I was anxious in the way all of us were about this, but at the same time, like, Okay, this is, these are the parameters of this disease, and this is how it works. So I'm like, Well, I have the tools needed to avoid that and not have it happen to me, right? And I haven't had it, you know, so,

but this okay, but going haywire, that's such a good I mean, that's the thing that happens with sixes is going haywire, and it happens when it's like, my my radar isn't functioning, or some or like, I'm picking up too many signals and I can't determine which one is true, or there's information overload. I can't orient here. I don't know what's going on, for example, with some, yeah, so with something that is, like, health related, for example, it's like, I need to know what the diagnosis of this thing so I know what it is and I'm dealing with and if I don't have one, and there are competing ones, then I'm lost in madness, confusion. I don't like something could happen that I don't know. Is that, am I articulating it in the right way for you? Does that feel on target? Yeah. Okay. And so what? So what? How do you when you're in that state of madness, confusion, disorientation, what do you do

that? Kate, in that situation, I had to do the like, and for millennials, I had to do the impossible, insurmountable like death defying, task of calling a doctor and getting a doctor's appointment scheduled, if you know, you know, like, I had to get that done. And then I went and saw a doctor. He's like, Oh, this is just a benign, like, cyst. Like, yeah, it's not nothing crazy. It's like, everything looks okay here. And then, like, you know, I was saying, again, you know. Yeah, you could have been like, amazing. No, I'm kidding. I didn't think that at all. I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, Yeah, I didn't think I was so relieved at the time, like, because, because, like, when you're in that state of mental illness, essentially, is what I think it is. Even though, when you're in that state of mental illness, like, you just start, you just get these, like, I'm, like, noticing my body, because I'm usually not someone who notices my body. I'm my body anymore, like in my head, like you start noticing your body, but it's all like, the bad things like this, oh, sharp pain here. Is like, Oh, I have a headache. It's like, oh, like, why is my vision going blurry all of a sudden? It's just psychosomatic. It was, it was intense. How

did you know that the doctor could be trusted.

I had to pay a lot of money because I didn't have insurance. I think the hoops I had to jump through probably at least at the time. Now, not so much, but, and, you know, they've studied medicine for years, right? They're at least going to look at it and and, kind of like, know what's going on? Even if they blow me off, it'll be like, um, at least it was looked at least I like, kind of like, checked it off. I just checked it off. My to do list. I did some amount of work to, I investigated, you know,

I guess what I'm getting at is, like, the the vetting mechanism of six, like, how right? How is six? How is six determines what is trustworthy, right?

And it's like, some things I don't vet at all, where other things I'm like, Hmm, like these people are specifically don't know my type, and they're conspiring to make me go not crazy. But you know, these people don't know my type, they don't know anything like vet, vet event, and then another person says, Hey, Alex, you look good in green. And I'm like, I believe you uncritically. So the pro the process is definitely is tied in with the ego, yeah?

But it's funny because there are certain topics that will send you into a panic, like, if you have Yeah, I think up on your head, yeah? Like, it's

because I don't know anything about science. No, I don't know anything. I think it's just I don't have any base in medicine or the healing arts, right? So I am, you know, your mind can only go so far. You know, I've done research since then, but, like, I have, literally have no base. So, you know, you're floating in space, right? Where I do know some things about the Enneagram. I do have a means to navigate that, you know, intellectual territory, where, in this one, I don't, so I had, I had to, and like, in my attempts to investigate, we're just making things worse, you know. So it's like, I can't even properly vet this information because I just don't know,

because you don't even have a sense of the framework yourself and by which you can vet it. Yeah, exactly.

And then, and then maybe that pain makes it even worse is

like, yeah, and the potential consequences to you are, are high enough? Yeah, it's a high stakes. Yeah,

there's nothing. What is it? Nothing cures existential anxious like health anxiety.

Um, I don't know if this question is too on the nose, but do you fear death a lot? I used to

like that. That's actually interesting. So, like in that time, I definitely did, and that made it very apparent, because, because it's like, I kind of have an esthetic of, kind of like talking about death and, you know, being a little dark and like and people know, know about me that I kind of joke about it a lot. And so in that it taught me, yeah, I definitely fear non existence in that sense of death. But, um, I think in 2023 I sort of, I did medical ketamine, and I it was pretty intense. It was super fun. Actually, it was for, like, depression and anxiety. But after I took it like, you know, I didn't really, like, have any grand realizations or or anything like that. I just saw some cool shit, you know, and what felt like the other side, you know. And after that, I it was just gone. Like, I just didn't stay up at night thinking about it or anything. I was just like, oh, you know, when it's over, it's over, you just kind of move on. So it sort of like broadened my view of what existence is. And, you know, like people who do drugs say that all the time. I don't know if you know or anything, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, in a sense, gaining that knowledge sort of like staved it off.

I see, yeah, partly the question came from, I mean, that's for. Of all, that's just comment on that. That's a really interesting point about the an expanded perspective allows you your anxiety to it's kind of put it this way. It's like, it's, yeah, we get anxious about things that we can't understand. Like you said, I don't know what's going on with my this bump on my head, and therefore I'm sent into a panic, and all of a sudden, though, like this thing that is this impending inevitability my own death, which strikes fear in many people's hearts. When you have an expanded perspective through something like a different experience of consciousness, right, then you can kind of like, file that idea away into a different into a into a wider orientation, and it reduces the anxiety around it, is what you're saying. And

that speaks to the core struggle of the type. And why these stereotypes exist is, is because of that limited, you know, mental real estate, the limited base of exploration that they have no wonder, like people are gonna that's all they know. Of course, they're gonna stick to it, you know. But you widen things out a little bit and suddenly these, these like stereotypes, fall apart,

widen out from inside the Six's point of view, or widen out the idea of six from the external point of view.

I want to say both. Yes, okay, but the latter, more more so the latter, if you want to focus on one sort of see it in the human evolution, like it's not demons doing it to you. It's germs. And once you have that frame, it's a it changes everything.

It's part of the the reason I asked about death is because, as a social six one what I would expect, just formulaically, you to be the most fearful, or what would produce the most anxiety is social things like position relative to other people, or the status of your relationships, or things like that. Like maybe a stereotype would be text and someone doesn't read it, and it's like, oh God, are they mad at me that that kind of a thing? Does that function for you at all?

I think it can, but I'm not the most communicative person on the planet. I will, I think the biggest way it would manifest is I'm, you know, I go to an event or a social thing, and I will just kind of, like, replay the events when I'm done, when I'm processing everything, and I'll just like, invent narratives that don't exist, like, oh, like, this one little glance, or this one little and in the moment, you know, I'm just doing my thing. I'm not in the moment, I'm not thinking about this. It's always after I'll just, like, think, oh, like, yeah, this person was put off by that. And it's just like, it's all kind of made up. So yes, I do do that.

This, you're kind of you have this quip that I've noticed in you, where you'll often make fun of yourself or your own mind for just making something up, like this thing has no basis. It's kind of like a throwaway quip that you, that you say, and I'm wondering it's kind of like this underlying awareness of the unreliability of what comes up in your head, and maybe, like the human head. Do

you have thoughts on that? Yeah, it's definitely a protective mechanism, because the, if I'm right, the result of that is a lot scarier than just throwing it away. Just like, oh, that's stupid, right? So it's like, internally dealing with that, those fears, but like, I don't know if they are right. It would require further action on my part too. So I have to, like, mentally understand and develop skill. And, yeah, it's, it's rough.

So is that like pointing to a willingness to just discount something you're noticing out of a

Yeah, it's like not having proof, not having certainty. Yeah, is when you don't have certainty. It's, it's hard to nail it down, right? You

have a secondary nine, wing, eight fix, right?

Yeah, official,

that's what, that's what came up for me when you were talking about that. It's kind of like this willingness to just let something slide off, like, whatever, you know, like, yeah, I could go into this anxious spiral about something, but also maybe it's not even trustworthy. So who fucking cares? It's like, well, whatever that's not and what does that? What does that leave you? Like, or, actually, let me put another way. Another way. One of the things that I've been really interested in recently is how type six, like the inner lines, 369, how they're all connected, and how the line to nine from six, so six integrates to nine, or that's the traditional framing of it. But in my view, actually, we take on both the positive and negative qualities of both directions depending on the level of health. Whereas, you know, for example, what I've seen with sixes is that despite their extraordinary mental alertness and their tinkering minds and their willingness to ask questions, the line to nine represents a way that they can sometimes kind of just mentally give up, you know, whatever, you know, yeah, like they get so far, yeah, and it's just kind of like, all right, I don't, I don't care. There's a deflate, like a mental deflation. It's like, I'm staying alert, I'm trying to make sure that I understand what's going on around here. And then I overwhelm myself. And I'm just like, You know what? I'm a fucking Karen or, or another way to put it, actually looks like you have response. You wanna respond on that

first Sure. Okay, yeah, yeah. What came up when you were saying that is so like, how I think of the lines and, like, as you were talking, I'm thinking of, like, you say, we take on positive and negative aspects of each line. And I'm like, Hmm, I wonder if there's one word that could define both of those relationships, you know, within a single type, both of their lines. And I think you drew the duality you drew for six and nine at least, was like, abdicate, mental abdication. Where, like, when I was coming into this conversation, I always, I didn't always, but like the, you know, the how I think about the end of how that's developing within is my six to nine is acceptance. You know, that's the word that comes to mind. And I just maybe that could go to three lines too. But, yeah, it's, in some sense, it's like, it's definitely, there's definitely an acceptance angle. Just like, okay, like, it's part of the settling down too. You know, there's certainty there, but the abdication as well. I think, at least in my case, I tend to not, I tend to forget other people can do things and act and exist in their own capacity. You know, other than hating me, of course, you know they're, you know, that's the best thing they're good at all. So I think there, there becomes an acceptance. There's like you can't think your way out of it. You have to accept the other person's agency and power and two way street around things. And if you don't get anything back that, I think that's when maybe the abdication or not clear enough signal signatures, signals, I'm sorry, um, that's, that's what that can make the abdication occur. But I think, um, in someone who has more anxious attachment style, maybe that'll make them kind of go for it even more. I don't personally, but I think that definitely is a possibility. Well, lack of acceptance.

I like your word acceptance. And I think that would be, you could say the high side of the nine or six, integrating to nine in a healthy way. And so I agree. I think that's part of the map. But the kind of more fixated or average part of the map that I'm pointing to is this way that sixes can, well, actually, it's part. It's just even inherent to the six structure, where sixes are often not taking full responsibility for their own perspective and choices. You know, this is part of the attachment thing in the mental center, right? It's like, it's like, no, they made me do it. Or, like you said this thing, and that's why that thing that, yeah, that's where six is, like, it's like a defeat, despite being so alert and spending so much of their life force energy trying to, like, Get clear on things and know what's going on, be prepared and all this kind of stuff. There's also a subtle mental diffusion happening, or an abdication of self responsibility, especially in the mental Center, where it's like, I'm not taking ownership for having a perspective. I'm not arriving at a perspective in an independent way and then planting a flag in it as as mine, or something like that.

Yeah, it's like abusing the net, the mental network and just finding one thing and clinging to it as a way of acknowledging

the whole Yeah, yeah. This, this is a bit of a shift topic, but I wanted to bring up something that you said in our previous conversation around how you've come to a place of acceptance around how important it is for you to ping off of other people, where your output and your mental activity is sharper when you're just like in conversation with people. And actually, here I'll tell I'll read you the note that I wrote. This is because I asked you. I was asking you about like, what are some. Things you've overcome, especially as you integrated and accepted your diagnosis, your diagnosis in quotes as a six, your typing as a six, terminal

illness got it, yeah,

seeing that you have a need for dialog and engagement and not being disgusted by it, in contrast to the larger American lionization of self sufficiency, plus in our Enneagram community, the judgment around attachment as needing others, especially around Bermuda, as not having a hyper, individuated self. So I guess I'm speaking out of the other side of my mouth, because I literally just talked about self education with this line of nine. However, at the same time, there's something kind of paradoxically self honoring about noticing you have this need for dialog and engagement, and how that actually brings out the best in

you, yeah, and that is sharpening my own individuality, right? People, the people bring me new ideas, and I get to run through them right ideas I wouldn't know about otherwise. And I get to hear their views. They get to hear my views. And like, we just, it's just life giving to me, like, it's just where, what brings me joy and happiness and and it's just mentally exploring different ideas with other people. And I had just had these like, I think that doing that is is normal, natural and happy and healthy and all that stuff. But I just like, you know, I don't think I'm Batman, you know, training underground, right? Even in fighting like, you have to get better by sparring, right? And my favorite part of martial arts is sparring is just duking it out, you know? So maybe that's not the mental center, but, I mean, it applies there too. But yeah, like this, this self sufficiency narrative to like that you can do it all on your own, and that makes you more individual is just like horseshit. It's yeah, we evolved together, not alone. And like that is just the state of existence, and I have to, like, relay it all the freaking time, that I can be enhanced by others. They don't only and that I'm not really losing anything by doing that. I'm gaining things. So, I mean, that might have been the best way to put it, but that's, that's how I have come to feel about it, and that's trying to be less disgusted by the wording around it, too.

Yeah. Well, I think, I think this is a really powerful point and a really important one, because there is so much, especially in the West, as we said, this kind of lionization of individualization and self sufficiency, and especially as attachment types in the mental center, we can kind of attach into that perspective and measure ourselves against this kind of expert, I don't know, collective expectation or or ideal. However, in the same way that attachment types can struggle to find themselves, you know, the whole attachment journey is like, who am I really? That crystallizes into an ideal of someone who knows who they are and can be themselves no matter what context, and can be self sufficient, all that kind of stuff. And so we project that ideal, kind of agree upon this ideal as a collective, and then we attach into that ideal and measure ourselves against it. And so part of the journey that I think is cool that you're expressing is that this is an ideal that I was kind of born and raised in, but real kind of, uh, disentangling myself from it and actually realizing that the ideal is unhealthy and unrealistic. And so I just think that's that's powerful as a six,

yeah, and that universal mental vetting is always at work there, right? Like, how, like, how, how attached Am I to this ideal versus what I am versus like, because the individual there's that ideal is there for a reason, right? You know, if you, if you, you know if I just introduced myself as son of Carl or something, that'd be weird as hell, like, and just realizing that hex Ed isn't as self sufficient as they say they are in general. Like, what's the king without their kingdom? Yeah? So, so it's just like, just like, recognize reality and have fun with it. That could, that could be that,

yeah, that's well, that that would be a title of six, wing seven, right there. Yeah,

that's the wing seven, because that was hard to see too. But I, I definitely see it now, and I kind of, like, love it. I love it for me, like this.

How do you Yeah, how do you see your settling,

basically, just willing to, like, strike out. Yeah, mentally. And what is it, not only like strike out mentally, but also just kind of like, twist and turn and see the absurd, like the serious versus the the silly, in a way. And I know six, six does it too. But like, just not having any, like, reservation around, like, if the extrapolate, extrapolating, like, how ridiculous things can get, like, with, with my family members, often our humor style is, we'll just kind of come up with, we'll kind of like, just do improv on the side and just let it go as insane as possible, you know. And suddenly we've invented entire governments around, you know, like, go Gurt, you know, like, okay, yeah, it's like, just kind of going the extra, you know, 10,000 miles with an idea is how I see it 6.7 rather than, you know, like putting it on the counter and just like looking through it even more and investigating what makes it up. No, no, we're just, we're just like, putting it in a rocket ship and hitting right into the sun.

Yeah, that makes, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, it's like it's playing, playing with, playing with ideas, playing with imagination. X means, yeah, there you go. Memes, yeah. Memes, yeah.

Okay. Another

topic I want to explore with you is your relationship, and also the kind of the archetypal relationship of six with labels. And I was literally just speaking to someone else, another six about the usefulness of labels and the complication of labels, stuff like that. And anyway, I think, you know, I'm about to go with this, but you identify as asexual, yes. And so you can, you, can you talk about the I don't know what the experience was of discovering that word and no understanding that you related to it. And then, what was it? Was it relieving? Was it just Yeah? Where, yeah? What was that like for you?

So, like, think talking about society ideals, right? And what we're raised with, I was definitely raised with, like, like, the homophobia that that all the All men are, so it's so like, um, when I found out about it, I'm just, like, not gay, right? Because I'm like, I don't know why I was worried about that, right? Because you have to like someone to like someone to do that. But like, I didn't under I didn't understand what liking someone

meant, right? And there's, I would just want to add, there's maybe some three fix in there as well, in the sense of just Yeah, no, valuing what the collective values, you know, and being, being terrified of the collective gaze, judging you based on you being something that it doesn't value,

right? Yeah, I want to enhance it by default. I want to enhance my position if I can, like, not to lower that position if I don't have to. But, yeah, so, yeah, discovering it was a huge relief. It was super eye opening, right? And I'm glad, like, at the time I was, I was like, 20, I think, and so

you were just real quick, you were worried that you might be gay because you didn't have attraction for women. That was what was going on.

Yeah, yeah, somewhat. And because, like, because I didn't, like, on a whole, I didn't kind of understand what it was. But like, you know, my peers and stuff would be like, oh, like, you know, they talk like, people talk about that stuff. And I would just be like, right? Because there's like, half of me is just like, Oh no, the gay card, and then the other half is like, Well, when I fall in love, I'll fall in love. You know, I had a very simple view about I'm like, oh, like, you just find a person you love and then you love them. That's how it works. And I just haven't found the person I love yet. And, you know, because I had girlfriends and stuff, but it was like, there's just, like, this extra oomph to get to that, like that I just can't do it's like, making a phone call now, but, uh, yeah, so it was kind of a, it was a huge relief to have a name for it. And, like, ultimately, labels are just intellectual shortcuts. It's just like, when you start adding layers of romanticization and, like, moral value and stuff, that's when it gets weird. But, but on, on their own, labels are good thing. And I thought that one was very, very good to realize, because I didn't it meant I'd, like, just had a clear means of navigating the world. Like, okay, I don't have to worry about this anymore. Like, this is, this is what I am. And, you know, I'm just going to get a lot of awkward questions in the future, and my siblings outing me, and people not knowing what it is, you know. And it's just like, you know,

the thing about labels with six is that it's here's the here's the duality that I see with sixes, and the relationship to labels is that, on the one hand, if you find one that is that you identify with you. It's massively relieving, because it's a thing that the collective has agreed upon. You could say, like, we have to give something a name. You know, it's like, this is an established thing. We understand it, or at least enough to, at least we understand it enough to have given it a name. Maybe there's mystery underneath it, but it's just okay this, it's got a title at the same time. Sixes can rail heavily, defiantly against labels when the collective holds them in such a way that's oversimplified, that's unfair, when people with certain labels get victimized, or they're treated unfairly, or they're not seen in the right way. And so and so this, it's a double edged sword,

right? Because, because what a label means to you might not it means something else to some, someone else, right? Even if, yes, yeah, the source is sort of the same, like, um, you know, you get all these like to say specifically in that there's like a bingo out there. There's like an asexual bingo out there, and it's just ways people don't understand or misrepresent the label, right? And there's like, the the free space is like, Okay, this is an asexual person, you know, their hormones are out of whack. That's like, the free space, get your hormones checked, okay? Or, like, you know, people will just because, because that's not their experience, and they've never heard of it, right? That their mental real estate is only goes this far, and asexuality kind of takes this much, right? So they kind of, like, use what they already have within their own real estate to, like, invent ideas and misrepresentations around it. Like, what's another one of the fun bingo ones, like, you're just too ugly to get laid. Or, like, um, I don't know, some other mental deficiency, but like, as a man, you know, another label, right? Like, the they all intersect, and I kind of like, you know, like, I don't get hassled too much because, you know, I'll put it on, or I could versus, versus women who have wait, like, you know, people who, like, they'll, like, smash together those labels like these, can't go together. Women make babies. Like, yeah, it's a big fucking hassle. But also, like, like, you said, a double edged sword. Like, super helpful. But also, like, you know, deadly, I rambled there. Sorry,

that's okay. Okay. I wanted to ask you. I wanted to ask you about this one. One of the questions I ask in the guest prep survey is, is there a life lesson that you've had to learn over and over again? And I love your answer, it was that putting yourself down and self deprecating does not protect me as much as it limits me, and I'll keep reading. So not only in terms of keeping myself inactive and away from my full potential, a moving target as life goes on, but keeping others out indefinitely, also it is a way of avoiding confronting the emptiness that can spur many others to action. It's an easy trap, and I plan for more cycles to continue.

Yeah, definitely learning. Gonna keep learning that lesson, right? Because I can, there's like seeing it, and there's like doing it.

I think that six, nine stem, particularly, is like, that's like the stem of self deprecation, yeah,

yeah. It's definitely not an easy process. Because, like, the whole thing is, not only do you have to realize all all of this painful information about yourself, about how you're not doing everything you could or being everything you could, but also like what steps it takes to to get over that. And I think I will continue to learn that lesson until I act but, you know, like, right now I don't have, I don't always have full awareness of it. I think in that moment I did, because I just got out of therapy. But, um, like, sort of, like, like, the engagement and the community I like, is very hard for me to get to because, like, there's, if we get into more, like, therapeutic territory, there is a lot of, like, criticism, not only around my skill, around doing it, but like having to ask at all feels like kind of stretching out too far. And then it's like, well, you don't have this thing you want. Why is that? It's like, well, one, you do have it in some ways, but in other ways you don't deserve it like and just like, struggling with that is very hard. And I think the abdication versus acceptance thing definitely cycles in there too. Yeah, it's definitely not easy.

Is this one of the reasons why, why you're going to therapy?

Okay, yeah, yeah. And I realized that, like, family of origin would have family of origin also just like social rejection for, you know, various social reasons that don't always apply to the masses can create this. So it's like, and some of the stuff we talked about before, it's like that, self sufficiency, me having to go out and ask for something. It's not the fun back and forth. It's me having to literally, like, take something from someone else, just like, the uncertainty around that it can be like, too much, even for just like, hey, do you want to hang out? Like, to me, that's like, making 10 phone calls in a row, if we're doing, you know, measuring in units of insurmountability, right? It's like, even, like, minute, daily things that people don't think about, they just do, are just like, Yeah, I've just constructed this, like, horrible thing. Like, crazy, not crazy. It's just been constructed, right? And I, and I'm had, I'm learning to not only see it for what it is, but take it seriously and deconstruct it, which is also what fun, six

power. What is that's true, that is, actually, I love that. You just point that out. Yeah, I agree. That is a six power. But what

is the construct? The construct is, um, sort like the construct in this specific case, is what I deserve to have and what are, what is an acceptable way of getting what I want right? And I think when other people are involved in that process, it becomes much harder.

It feels like we're moving into super ego territory with that statement, like, what's an acceptable way of getting what I want? Yeah, you are

good catch. Yes, I didn't think about it that way, but it totally is.

Yeah. Can you follow that thread? What does that bring up for you?

What it brings up? What does it bring up? If I follow the super ego thread, yeah, it just brings up ideas. See, it's sort I think I get, will get stuck in a loop of action and reaction, cause and effect, and put morality around it, of things I should and shouldn't do, and kind of like, not see the system at work that not only created the construct, but will destroy the construct. And I think that probably is really important for a super ego, because if you, if you let a moral construct get too big, or like, you know, put morality on something that doesn't have it, you will limit yourself for life, and you will just stop as a person, not only mentally, but in every center, I think You imagine, at the heart center, probably the strongest.

How does this operate? In the context of, like, making a phone call to ask someone to

hang out, how does this operate? So it'll be when I actually do do it, which is very rare, I will just put a bunch of things in a message that shouldn't be there. Like, I will just, like, give them seven ways to opt out.

Okay, okay. Like, Hey, do you want to hang out? Tell you don't. Totally don't have to no pressure if you don't want that kind of thing, yeah.

Like, if you, if you're not a solid form that day, like, just forget. I even texted you, like, I wished, I wish the messages will self destruct, but they'll forget. I even asked at the end,

yeah, okay, I'm getting a sense of it.

So, yeah, it's just like, so the vulnerability, yeah,

have you? Have you made progress there?

No, but we're working on it. I I'm aware of the issue, and the team is working internally to correct it in 20 years.

What makes it what makes it so hard to make progress on

that it's just like, too risky to me, right? It's just like standing at the edge of the cliff and jumping right, even though it's not if someone asks me to hang out, you know, I'm just like, can I, or can I, and I move on with my day. Yeah.

Well, this is coming full circle around the the fear of the social instinct. I mean, it seems to me, because it's like, that's, it's a really vulnerable thing to put yourself out there to make an invitation, you know? Yeah, I know you're partly being tongue in cheek when you said no and but I. That also true.

So I would say, like, one of the ways I could keep myself from from doing that is like creating, like, kind of, you know how I said abusing the network. I will take these bad ideas about masculinity and self sufficiency, and double down on those to avoid the responsibility of of reaching out and, you know, you know, making myself better. I think,

Okay, this is kind of getting to that six inner split thing where it's like, because, let's see how to put this. Because when, when you're so like, when you've been so like, available to external guidance and orientation for your whole life, and you're in a position where you're going to make yourself vulnerable by asking for, you know, by, for example, making a social limitation, or when you're going to make any decision, because you've been so open and available, you've absorbed all these different guiding vectors, and some of them pull in different directions. So just in that simple instance of, hey, I want to invite this person out to go to get a lunch or something. It's like, on the one hand, you could justify that by saying this is a good thing, because in the field of inner work, this is like progress for myself. It's also it'll be good for me on the other hand. And there's a million other things you could say there, but in the opposite direction, the other vector says, well, actually, I shouldn't need to have this. I should be self sufficient. I should be fine being independent and on my own. And what it means to be man is like, not to need for or, you know, all that, all that kind of stuff,

especially as someone who doesn't like, feel the need to date, but that like that makes it even worse, because you I have to,

I had like, like to, I wouldn't call it a gap, per se, but to like, like, you have the same social and social and community needs as everyone else, but you I don't have access to the the usual ways people get it, because I just don't have any interest. So like and that, and that creates a lot of like confusion, and, you know, solidifies the construct even more. It's like, even more so you should need anyone, because you don't, you don't feel romance or or, you know, you don't want to anyone. Yeah, that's

so interesting. Because I would have, I actually would have thought it would gone the other way, where it's like, well, I have no sexual interest in anyone, and therefore I'm not posing a sexual threat, and that makes me, yeah, you know, a safe place for people. Yeah,

it could Yeah. And socially, I think I have used that as a strategy. I think, like, one of the main benefits is, is that, like, straight women and stuff, is, like, I that that just is there. I don't really advertise it unless, like, like, a hit on or something. But, um, yeah, yeah, that definitely is a, is a benefit that I have that is correct. You You guessed it correctly. But, uh, internally, I'm not thinking, like, you know, I could leverage this. I mean, no, I'm like, to me, that's just reality. Like,

yeah, I had this is bringing something else to about, like, one of the things that I'm always fascinated by watching sixes is how it's like sixes. Sixes can take any circumstance and and find the way that it's like, not good. You know what? I mean, it's like, this is the, this is the way, this is the, the way that the situation is set up. Um, has put me in an underdog position.

Yeah, that's possible. Yeah, I think with the seven wing, it's a little less. But definitely, I definitely need something I can do. It's definitely on my resume.

Yeah, do you relate to that framing? What I just said, i

i Let's see, like I definitely can and do do that. I don't like to admit it. Yeah, I think it's a practical gaming I just don't like that's

one of the things I Yeah. I was wondering if we're getting into that territory. Because one of the things I see six is get the most offensive about is, or, if you put your finger on that, it's kind of like,

yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a good thing to point out. Like, it's just something to, I think, to be more conscious of. And I get to that level of nine reality rather than delusion?

Yeah, yeah. Well, actually, there would be that would be the the difference between acceptance and self application in a certain way, right? Yeah. That would be it.

Exactly, yeah. And sort of that victim hood is a way of self abdicating. I mean, I guess we did that, so it's obvious and unspoken, but

yeah, it is. But no, actually, I'm glad you made it explicit, because I think I'm so fascinated by this, like six, the word victim operates in six, in six psychology in this really profound way. And I think six is also have an allergy to admitting that, or to like, like, if you point out, like, Hey, you're kind of doing this victim thing, like, I'm not being, you know that that's and not saying that's what you're doing at all right now, but it's kind of, um, yeah, it's funny. I don't know. Do you have thoughts about that, just that whole

phenomena? Sure, it's like, that's where you gotta, that's where vetting, that's where it's just another vetting opportunity, right? Like, in some ways, you are a victim, and that requires, that requires acknowledgement, that requires you know the adaptations or or whatever you got to do with that, right? But also, like, um, where was I going? Like, you also have to acknowledge where you are an agent, like, what, what was your role in this and that this, this is not a like, a good shield to rely on, because, like, you know, it's very easy for a victim to become an oppressor and still claim to be a victim, right, right, right, yeah. So it's, it's just the constant vetting and discovering and accept it, yeah, it's, it's a process for sure, yeah, yeah. It's like, and if you don't admit you're a victim, that can be just as disastrous as using it as your first line, because both, both aren't accepting reality, which is, I'm using that word a lot, and I don't usually do it, but it really just seems to, like, make everything clear when discussing the scope of like, six as a type, and Honestly, like the attachment types in general. Yeah,

yeah. I'm wondering, what else have we? Have we not discussed that is important that we get to

Avatar The Last survey.

Oh, my God, I fucking forgot about that. Actually, yeah, we should go there. We should go there. We should go there. We should go there. All right, so I know that. I know that you watch, you have watched one of my favorite shows of all time, Avatar, The Last Airbender, one of my favorite shows of all time. Also, it's just for everyone who's watching. It's a master be yours too. It's, yeah, yeah. It's, it's an unbelievable show. And we have, I think we have a minor disagreement about the the type of this character, but, but our favorite character on the show, Zuko Prince. Zuko is the fire Prince show, and I think he's a three and four. You think he's a six, right? Okay, but instead of getting, let's not get into a debate about his type. But what are what are you? What do you relate to about that character in his arc? And just to say, by the way, it is the most, one of the most compelling character arcs in any TV series that I've ever seen, yeah, the way, and the execution of it is so spectacular, yeah. So let's

see if I can try to tie it into the discussion we have been having. Okay, so if we use reality, so like Zuko, essentially, where he starts out as a prince, right? And his father is the ultimate authority, not only of his household, but of the entire land. And he's just had this whole like mental Fire Nation is great. Fire Nation is this that, and he like his we are. We're introduced to him having that turned on its head right where, because he doesn't realize, like the the nature of his environment yet. So he essentially is banished, right? And the only way to get his honor back, to get the acceptance of the authorities that he has accepted in his life is to, you know, capture the avatar and like and he believes it's a doable task. You know, he's probably three fixed at least. And through, through that journey, he he has to, he is forced to accept, like his mentally, that the world is bigger than his mission and his ideas and and what his father wants, he's literally forced to confront that. He's forced to, like, like, not only, you know, fight the avatar a bunch of times, but also realize how, like, how dirty the Fire Nation is, how, you know, like, how they're kind of ruining the world, how everyone hates them, how even have skills like his sister, he realizes, shit, I'm sort of losing it, but like eventually joint spoilers on a 20 year show, but he realizes that the real fight that needs to occur to make the world a better place, rather than his. It's just his own life, right? Because he eventually, you know, gets what he wants. You know, it's dishonest means, because his sister is the one who took avatar, the avatar out. He he gets it through like inauthentic means, but even though he has it, and I think even even more than that, he didn't earn it. I think that's a problem, but even more that he he knows that he didn't do the right thing, right? He can't unlearn what he has learned about the world. And eventually, you know, he like, spirals out, until eventually he's like, No, I I'm joining the avatar, and I'm gonna beat you. Yeah, that was roundabout way. But

as okay as we were talking, I actually just was going through a little calculation in my head and I and I actually think you might be right. I think he's a six because, because, because he's he's gotta be reactive type. He's gotta be. He's just too, he's too he's angry, quick trigger. Yeah, he's too quick trigger to be. He's not like a composed three. So anyway, but yeah, so I just think he's, let's see I want to respond so well, okay, what do you relate to about his journey?

I think, sort of the shedding, using like as your as your mental real estate grows and grows and grows you, you have to shed like you realize that a lot of these authorities are farces, right, even though they have real power to kill you, right? Ultimately, like the these, it's just ultimately not, it's not real. I mean, the weather is real, but like and through, through that process you like become more individualized and empowered to like, just have more freedom in the world and to enact your own will, rather than what you've inherited through birth.

Yeah, I have some commentary here, so like, okay, Prince Zuko again, one of my top favorite ever anime or characters in any show, the heart sensor journey that he goes on, just to put it in that this kind of, like the heart sensor, and then there's the mental sensor, and they're and they're obviously intertwined. But heart sensor, it's kind of, he's wanting the approval of his father. He's been banished from his kingdom. His father's an and the only way he can redeem himself, as you said, is to go like do this, what his father thought was an impossible task, go find the avatar and capture him. And this whole journey, he's obsessed with winning back the approval of his father, and then when he finally comes to a place of self acceptance and understanding his own values and seeing himself through his own eyes and through the eyes of his Uncle Iroh, and realizing, Oh, actually, the people have really supported me and who love me for who I really am are not my father and my insane sister, but actually my uncle IRA, who who embodies these gentler, more peace oriented kind of values. That's when he, kind of like, finds himself, you could say the mental center version of that story is that he's been raised in the context of the Fire Nation, which is this kind of war mongering society that's all about aggression and dominance, and his father has set him on this task to redeem himself, And he feels responsible to the king. And it's all about, you know, I mean, and also six, archetypically, you could say, oriented around the archetypal father as a as a figure or an energy. And this whole thing about, like, changing your perspective, where it's like, as a six I grew up in a particular worldview, and then having that deconstructing that worldview through my life journey, and then arriving, piece by piece at an entirely different worldview that totally contradicts and is an opposition to the one I started in. That is that's a really profound mental journey, you know, really, really profound. And, yeah, so I guess, so I'm seeing those as two things side by side. And as with that framing, are there things like that? I guess we've talked about it with the in the context of your relationship with images and ideals of masculinity and things like that. But are there others that you relate to in terms of that journey,

basically using the mental center to discover, decide what like, and maybe this is social just kind of right, because ultimately, look, in this Zuko case, he's decided he's like, deciding the real value of the social, social, social currencies he values, right and honor, is this one social currency. And then, you know, like, from his father and his nation versus his uncle, and realizing, sort of like, how these processes should work, versus how, you know. They, they work for specific people. And yeah, like, I think, like going with these standards, like these standards will never love you, okay, they don't have that capacity. They may just, you know, bestow upon you leverage and honor and power, but they won't give you what you actually need and want, and what people are willing to give you if you let them. And I think in Zuko case specifically, like he always had his uncle ready to love him and and, and he did. He did and, and this is like, just with, without

adhering to these, like twisted standards of the Fire Nation, right? He loved him for who he was, and, you know, all that juicy good stuff, Heart Center currency.

So, yeah, I think I definitely had to discover some of that too, that you can only love yourself so much, and that that's just sort of helps you sail through the world, and it creates a lot of but like, you can't shut everyone else out just because you love yourself, because then you'll just, like create something else.

Say more about that, that statement you can only love yourself so

much, seven when you're saying that, so like, yeah, and I think this, this could be at the core of my struggles. Because, like, I definitely don't love myself a whole lot, right? I could definitely learn to do that better, but it, I think it can only get you so far, right? I think people will see and value that within yourself, that you just can do that and but also like, I think I like, I don't know, drawing unnecessary distinctions, but it's not gonna, it's not always gonna take you where you need to go. I guess

so in a way, I'm like, vetting self love all the time, but, but, like, in a way that won't try it on.

Oh, that is an other. That's part of the whole construct, right? That, yeah, there we go. Yes, so that, but I'm fascinated by that. So it's kind

of like you're me too, like I'm like discovering some as I talk.

I guess the way I'm I'm receiving that is your your you have this kind of therapeutic mandate to learn how to love yourself, to inhabit more self love, and your mental center is coming in to vet when it's appropriate to do that, how much it's appropriate to do that, in what context, towards what ends, when it's effective, or whatever. And this whole matrix or labyrinth of mental gates that self love has to kind of pass, it's almost like a Yeah, yeah, that before it kind of can fill you up,

right? So, yeah, me taking on just the distorted values of the culture for good or for ill. It's almost like a filter, because like, like, Okay, you love yourself. Like, what is what is yourself? Like?

Yeah, yeah. You know the way I'm, I'm welcome to attachment type, right? Well, I'm kind of finding my way into it, because I feel like this is part of, I mean to paint it in a in a more generous light, what I would say is that as a six, you have this, like, core, core, need to have an orientation that you feel is right, reliable, certain, and you're trying to figure out what is the place of and of self love in that orientation, or how does it function in it. And there's all kinds of questions about, like, what? What's the self what is self love anyway? So all that, and it's kind of like having gotten to a place in your journey where you've essentially rejected a lot of the conventional values that you were raised in, or that you're kind of disentangling yourself from. Yeah, the collective standards. You're in the process of piecemeal, or, yeah, piece by piece, constructing your own orientation. And that's an actually very arduous process.

And so connected to the other centers and yeah, and also you

just have to figure out, like, what you actually believe is true. Believe is true, you know, and yeah. So in other words, this, this, like, self love can't fully fill you up until you feel like you have that answer, maybe, as a way to put it, yeah, until you've, like, fully constructed your mental model. Yeah. Uh, almost like it's like, uh, the heart center is waiting for this mental center to feel like it has justified itself enough before, right? Fully,

like I'm preparing my case and I'm gonna go to the heart center court and make it, but I'm not ready yet. Okay, give me a few more weeks.

Yeah, yeah. And, and, what are you waiting for? For clarity?

What a great question. I don't know, yeah, I guess I'm still, I'm still still looking for what that is, or what skill that is, you know, it could be a practice, like a meditation practice. It could be just like, you know, therapeutic stuff, definitely trying different things, though. But I do not have that answer yet, but I have faith that one day I will. It's like, intellectually, I get it, but it's like, it's just hard to bring it to the other centers that makes sense to embody it, or to like and like. I'll have moments of it, you know, when you're with like, cherished ones, right, where you can just kind of like be yourself and not worry about anything, but it can be fleeting.

Yeah, I That's amazing. I mean, it kind of, my initial impression is that feels like the mental Center has to, I don't know, unmuddy itself, so that the channel is clear for the other senders to, kind of like, fill in, or something like that. But we got

some Captain Planet village up there,

got the cobwebs out, yeah, yeah. Okay, fascinating. I'm glad we got there. That was a really, that was a really interesting, yeah, just point of just how the centers get I don't know, like, how, how the centers are in relation to each other, how they get scrambled, how it's like, the mental center, in a certain way for you, is doing a heart centers job, or, like, it's like, hold on, Heart Center, we're not ready yet. Like, I got to figure this out first. You know, like a bottleneck, yeah, whereas, yeah, for I'm trying to think how that would relate to me. I mean, as me as a heart type, you'd be other way around, where it's like, I'm the way for me as a hard type, the way it has worked sometimes is like, I can't, I can't know what I believe until I'm certain that this thing that I believe will earn me admiration, that's where I can get really stuck. And then I like, does that make sense? So it's like the heart center putting constraints on the mental center instead of

the other way around. It makes sense? Yeah, I understand it. Yeah, yeah. I don't do that.

Yeah. It's a I don't know that's one that I've had to really work to grow out of. Anyway, where are we at? How are you feeling right now? Is there anything else that we haven't discussed and what's this been like for you? Nothing,

nothing comes to mind, but I think I had fun. I thought this would be harder, not saying it wasn't hard, like, difficult, to unearth all this mental stuff. But I thought, I don't know I was, like, anxious and nervous as always, that I wouldn't have be interesting enough. But you know, you're professional, you gotta make it work. Yeah? So it's asking good questions. Is, is the best part about getting getting good answers, right?

Well, thank you for your openness and for your willingness to do this, and for Yeah, your real time exploration of some of these kind of insights that

came up from my mental

Okay, yeah, there it is. That's I mean, six wing seven, yeah, okay. Thank you and namaste. Thank you for tuning into my conversation with Alex. If you liked this conversation, then please click the like button or hit subscribe if you're watching on YouTube, or if you're listening to this as a podcast, then you can leave up to a five star review and also leave some comments if you're watching on Apple or Spotify. Those are free and very effective ways of supporting me and the show and the work that we do at the Enneagram school. If you want to learn more about the Enneagram, then I would love for you to come check us out at the Enneagram school.com go right there to our website. We have a list of all of the interviews that we've done. You can browse them by type and instinctual stacking. And I also would love for you to check out our intro course, where we lay out all the basic concepts of what makes the Enneagram, the Enneagram, and do deep dives on each of the types. That's the place to start. If you're a beginner, or if you're an advanced student, and you want to know kind of our perspective on the Enneagram, then that would be the place to go. If you think that you're a good candidate to be interviewed on the show, I would love to hear from you. You can contact me through the contact form at the Enneagram school.com preference strongly goes to people who have been typed by the typing team@enneagrammer.com the typing team over there is, in my view, the way. World's most accurate, most precise Enneagram typing team, and you can go check out their typing services on their website, as well as their members area, where you can watch them type celebrities in real time and learn how to type from from the experts. Finally, I want to say this podcast is part of a larger network of collaborators. I want to plug our Dream Girls podcast insomnia, where they explore the relationship between unconscious and dreams and the Enneagram. And I also want to mention our other podcast called House of Enneagram, which is kind of a creative roof under which all of our collaborators are contributing. And so we have people from the typing team, people from the Enneagram school, people from insomnia et cetera, all kind of doing a rotating cast of exploring different aspects of the Enneagram and the ways that the Enneagram can be used as a lens to understand art, pop culture, current events and things of that nature. So all the links to all that stuff will be in the show notes, and that's it for me. Thank you very much. See you next time you

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