Join The Franklin Institute's Derrick Pitts for a conversation with astrochemist and founder of advocacy org Black in Astro, Ashely Walker. Listen as they discuss resources for Black scientists entering the field, the importance of diversity within astronomy and other hard sciences, and Ashley's work exploring the environments of the ice giant planets Uranus and Neptune!

Links for this episode:

• Learn more about Ashley's research, Black in Astro and the work of the organization's leadership team!
• Check out some of the resources Ashley recommends, like Dr. Nia Imara's tutoring project Onaketa and the Women+ of Color Project
• Check out some of Black in Astros sister orgs, like Black in Chem, Black in Marine Science, and Black in Physics
• Learn more about the field of space law
• Learn more about NASA's Dragonfly Mission out to Saturn's largest moon, Titan

Hi, I'm Derrick Pitts, and welcome to The Curious Cosmos.

In the world of science, universities serve the role of not only

conducting research, but educating and training new generations of

scientists to work in the field.

But so often, the halls of academia can feel closed off,

inaccessible and unwelcoming.

My guest today is here to shed some light on higher education,

particularly for Black students pursuing advanced degrees in science.

Ashley Walker is the founder and president of Black In Astro, formed

through a need for support and community amongst predominantly early career

black people working in astronomy.

Ashley is a PhD student at Howard University, where she studies the

atmospheric processes and evolution of the ice giant planets of our

solar system, Uranus and Neptune.

She received her bachelor of science in chemistry from Chicago State University.

Ashley, thanks a lot for joining us today.

Thank you for having me!

So Ashley, you know, you and I have talked off and on over

the last few years about the problem of underrepresentation in physics,

particularly astronomy, for people of color, African Americans, and can you

help us sort of like describe that problem of underrepresentation in physics?

Absolutely.

So, underrepresentation in physics.

It's an issue that has been ongoing, but as time progressed, we're now seeing a

lot of people just leaving with their bachelors, or some people are actually

transferring out of certain institutions or switching fields because they don't

feel seen, they don't feel heard.

A lot of times, they just don't see themselves or see other people within

the hierarchy that look like them.

And so, this problem has been going on for quite some time.

Even if you go back and look at the distances between when the

first Black man got his PhD or his bachelor's in comparison to, obviously,

unfortunately, the Black woman, Black LGBT folks, Black disabled folks,

it takes all of us quite some bit of time to go through these programs.

And so, unfortunately, this has just been replicated throughout history and time,

because we're in 2023 and they were still getting the first black, whatever, right?

Insert here.

A lot of people are like, "why are we still dealing with this?"

Without realizing the systematic structure of oppression that has

been bestowed upon us, unfortunately.

Now, when I first met you a number of years ago, I contacted you

because I was amazed to find out, to find out about you in astrophysics

and also to find out about the number of other Black women in astrophysics.

That really stunned me.

So I'm wondering...

Given that, would you say that the interest in studying physics is

growing, or are more students of color asserting their prerogative

to have a place in advanced physics?

It's a slight bit of both.

Mainly the assertiveness, and I'm so happy to see that because when I go to NSBP

- Derrick: NSBP is the National Society of Black Physicists.

I see all these new, bright faces that are just

like, "I like science," right?

When I went to AAS.

AAS?

The American Astronomical Society.

We were almost in tears to see so many new people of color.

That we were just like, "oh my god, this is the most we've ever seen!"

So we're excited to see that students are now taking the initiative,

but there's also a thing about retention, about keeping some of us

who have been around for what, five plus years, some of us are leaving.

And that's where the sad face comes in, because a lot of the people, a

lot of my friends that are currently getting ready to defend that are

people of color, they're just basically like, "yeah, this isn't for me.

I'm getting my PhD and I'm going into tech" or "I'm going here" or "I'm

going there," where they just feel like this is just not for me, based on

job placement or just the overall like community in general, and how people

are feeling about their blackness, their brownness, their queerness, you know.

Like just how they feel and they want to be in a safe space.

And so I'm happy that a lot of people are making themselves, again, more

assertive and that there are people that are like, "yes, I'm going to stick around

for a bit longer," but at what expense?

You know what I mean?

Retention seems to be an issue in higher education in general, but here

in physics and particularly for people of color in physics, you know, you're

pointing out that's a major issue.

So what kind of support is there?

In higher education for students of color in these high level sciences like physics.

So something that I do want to shamelessly plug is Dr.

Nia Imara.

She has a organization called Onaketa.

And this is a woman who is doing some amazing work within the field,

and she's an amazing mentor of mine.

And so what she does is, her and some of the grad students and postdocs,

they go back and help younger students, K - 12, high school students that look

like us, to get this math and science skills that are needed because we

normally don't have these things, right?

And then there is also my other good friend who has the Women of Color Project.

These are groups that are making sure like, hey, do you

want to get to grad school?

Okay, let me show you the process of how to get there.

And obviously, I can't help but to plug my own stuff, right?

Oh, we're getting to that.

Go ahead!

Yeah, Black in Astro, where we provide travel support for undergrads.

We also do talks.

One of my event coordinators, Dakotah Tyler, who's all over

TikTok and all over social media.

He does planetarium shows.

I'm a science communicator.

You have Dr.

Ron Gamble, who just does some fascinating NASA stuff and doing

things with the multiverse and how he is building black students.

And like, Hey, what do you need help with the math?

I'll never forget.

I went to him for math.

He said, "we're going to get this done in 15 minutes.

You're not going to spend several hours doing this."

Right.

And so we have Ms.

Caprice Phillips, who also does Sci-com and making sure that,

like, students feel supported.

So we have some amazing people within this community that are taking the time out

to say, "Hey, what do you need help with?

And how can I help you to get there?"

Wow, that's great.

That's fantastic.

Because I mean, that's one of the major things that happens to students

of color in these systems is that they feel isolated and they feel alone.

And this is a great way to provide the support that they need to get

through some of these difficult challenges, and the subjects.

We mainly want to make a community where it's a support network,

a collaborative effort, because we want to make sure that people also get a

chance to publish papers with each other.

That's something that we rarely see within science is an

all-Black publication, correct?

And so that's something that we want to see.

We also want to make sure that we provide services such as travel grants.

Why can't you get to this conference?

How can we help you?

We also give students a stage, regardless of what level that

they are, to present their work, so that other people can see it.

You know, recruiters for jobs, for internships, for educational institutions

can see like, this is what you're missing from your department, this

is what you're missing from your research group, you know what I mean?

To just give them a chance to be themselves.

Yeah, that's incredibly important.

And are the National Science Organizations supporting

organizations like Black in Astro?

And that leads me to another question.

What other organizations are there like Black in Astro?

So, we actually are funded by the Heising-Simons Foundation.

So we're really, really excited.

And we also are in collaboration with OSU, the Ohio State University,

and a couple other universities and institutions as well.

And we have new members coming on to help us this upcoming year, and for

future years, which we're really, really grateful and happy for.

So other organizations, obviously I have another one, Black in Chem, and

I helped co founded Black in Physics, so there's other ones, so there is a

big umbrella of the Black in X org.

Huge shout out to Black in Marine Science, I love them over there,

they are doing the thing over there.

Fabulous.

So there are a number of other Black in X organizations that

are very similar and that are really just pushing the envelope on how

they can support black scientists.

How can they get their faces out there?

Our goal is, what do you need?

How can we support you?

And this isn't just like a US based thing.

This is also a global thing.

So for black and astro, on my e-board, we have Cheyenne Polius who is from St.

Lucia, but she's currently in London.

We also have Dr.

Tana Joseph as well.

We know that we have Black people all over the world that are interested

in space sciences and astronomy.

We also have space law.

So, we definitely want people to know that Black people do space, right?

That Black people do astronomy, Black people do science.

It's just, what is your niche?

How can we help you?

That's really great.

Can you tell us a little bit more about what space law is?

I mean, you know, I know when folks listen to this program and they hear

space law, I'm not exactly sure what they're going to think of what that is?

So, our space lawyer, AJ link, LLM, let me get his titles correct, sir!

He does lectures about space law and policy, and that's why I brought him in.

Basically, how does the law apply to space, and how can we look at

different entities within space, because you can't own space, right?

You can't, you can't really own space, but we know that there are, like, treaties

and certain convictions and international agreement plans that go into space law.

For him, like, he basically wants to make sure more people are aware of this.

You know, his role is more so making sure that like people are

more aware of what's happening.

And how can we make these connections between astronomy and space law

and how can we work together for Black people and humanity?

Because if you want to own your own company, how can we help you there?

If you want to just have a small stock in space.

Things of that nature.

One of the things I see here is that you seem to be the thread of

connection through all of these different Black in X organizations that you've

mentioned just a few minutes ago.

And I'm wondering, how is it that you find the time to work on

this in with all of the work that you're doing for your PhD program?

Oh, man.

It's about balance.

Do you sleep?

Do you sleep?

I do sleep.

That's good.

But it's about balance, right?

Because I'm well aware about, like, what I want in this community and

how can I serve my community better.

But I'm also like, okay, how can I be a better grad student?

How can I continuously learn about my failures as a grad student?

Because that's the, like, that's the whole point of grad school, right?

Right.

Mm hmm.

That's right.

So, how can I continue learning about my failures and my

successes, my small wins, right?

Mm hmm.

So I do what I can.

I try to have a healthy work life balance.

I know that's a challenge, because there is

so much that has to be done.

There's so much that you have to be on top of.

And you do have your own objectives in pursuing a PhD.

I mean, that's the direction that you're going.

When I introduced you earlier, you know, I mentioned how you're studying

atmospheric processes and evolutions of these ice giant planets in our solar

system, and that's no small challenge.

And it's an incredibly interesting field.

And the work that you're doing is absolutely pioneer work too, because

these are planets that people may not gravitate to as the planets they want

to study in the solar system, right?

But you're right out there on the edge of discovery of a very different kind

of environment in our solar system.

So, what are some of the big issues or big problems, big questions about

that region of the solar system that you're really interested in

trying to investigate more about?

So what we're primarily looking at with Neptune and Uranus, if anyone

is familiar with the Decadal Servey that just came out last year, and so...

Most of the general public has no idea what that is!

For reference, the Decadal Survey is a study conducted by the National Research

Council across a number of science disciplines to determine what the

hot topics are for the next 10 years.

These surveys are incredibly important because they determine which areas

of study will be most readily able to secure funding for further

research for the next 10 years.

So careers often are either made or broken by where a research

area shows in a Decatal survey.

For the first time, both of them actually had talked about E.

D.

I.

Work, which I was like, oh my God, right?

I was so excited.

And within that, they also said basically the Uranus orbiter

is the top priority mission.

What we wanna see, we wanna see a Uranus orbiter.

So if you are now seeing a lot of Uranus stuff and ice giant stuff coming

on your feed, that's because it's the last place that we have went to.

In like 30 years, we have not went to Uranus.

Why haven't we explored Uranus very much?

Because Uranus and Neptune are so far out, it takes a long time

to get a spacecraft out there.

So, if you're going to do this, it's going to take decades in order to mount

a mission to actually make it happen.

And so, there's a lot of things that we just don't

know about its atmosphere.

You know, we're doing these things from ground based remote sensing and space

telescope observations, such as JWST.

One thing that I'm really, really interested in knowing is like, what

are the clouds doing and how are they interacting with each other?

How is it producing, basically, the weather?

Wait, now let's take 30 seconds just to describe the

environment of Uranus for this audience.

It's the 7th planet of the solar system, mostly made out of water,

ammonia, and methane, and it takes 84 Earth years to orbit the sun.

So the environment of Uranus is extremely cold, it's like negative 353

degrees Fahrenheit if I'm not mistaken.

It's not a place that we would want to live, and it stinks!

So it smells like eggs.

Yeah!

Crazy!

So it has this H2S, which is hydrogen sulfide, in its upper atmosphere.

So while we're looking at this particular molecule, and particularly

in how it's impacting Neptune and Uranus, that's what my goal is.

Mm hmm.

We also want to know, like, the inside of Neptune and Uranus.

So one of the arguments is, is it a rock planet or is it an ice giant?

If you go online, there's this infamous photo.

You seeing like the cloud layer, the water ice layer, the ice layer itself.

And then you see the rock, like the mantle and all that.

And a lot of people use this imagery within the ice giant communities.

To like say, what do we really want to call them?

How can we understand Uranus's unique tilt and rotation?

How can we understand its moons?

How can we understand its rings?

So these are things that we're really, really wanting to know.

And we're, fingers crossing, hoping that the Uranus orbiter mission

gets picked up one day and we go and figure out what's actually happening.

Fantastic.

So Titan is the largest moon of Saturn.

The Dragonfly mission is a mission that's a combination drone and

rover that would be able to do science experiments in different

locations on the surface of Titan.

Can you tell us a little bit about the Dragonfly mission?

So they really want to see what is happening in the atmosphere.

They want to know about the geological and the chemical

reactions that are happening there.

They want to know about its upper atmosphere, because again, we haven't

went to these places because it's the only moon in our solar system

that is relatively close to Earth.

So we want to know, like, how Titan can help us unlock the keys to earlier.

Yeah, Titan is a really crazy place because this is a moon

that has Lakes of liquid methane that flows across the surface.

This is an atmosphere where it rains liquid methane.

So it has these kind of like similarities to Earth's environment

in that, you know, Earth has a kind of like a hydrologic cycle.

And in a way, Titan kind of has a hydrologic cycle sort of thing, even

though the temperatures are that low.

So it's a really intriguing place.

Absolutely.

It's very, very much.

And so, and the atmosphere is very, very dense.

But it has very, very little oxygen.

When you're done with your Ph.

D., where do you think you want to go work with that?

So I've already stated to my advisors I want to be a P.

I.

of a planetary mission.

I want to lead the science team.

I definitely want to go back to NASA, obviously, for obvious reasons.

Now you said go back to NASA.

You had a post bachelor's degree internship at Goddard Space Flight Center.

Yes.

And what were you studying?

So there, I was studying the stratospheric ice cloud chemistry,

which led me to Neptune and Uranus.

But I initially did it with Saturn's moon Titan.

So we used all of my expertise and just was like, "Hey, let's

put this on Uranus and Neptune."

Wow, incredible.

Can you tell us a little bit more about your personal experience as a

woman of color in astronomy as you were coming through as an undergraduate

and now as a graduate student, maybe there's a little bit more for you, but

you didn't have the support network of black and Astro as there is now.

What was it like for you to navigate your hard science courses when

you were just getting started?

I had support within my classmates, and I had

outside institutional support.

But in terms of internal faculty members and stuff like that, I, I think I

had maybe the support of the physics department, but the chemistry was very

much, you need to go over to physics.

Ahhh, okay.

Mm hmm.

Like if you're gonna be an astronomer, do physics,

but don't do chemistry.

I was very much being told you should be a science communicator permanently,

but I don't think you should be a PhD faculty member or a research scientist.

They felt like my skill set was more so with science communication than it would

have been with actual, hardcore science.

And so...

Wait a minute, wait a minute.

Do you think that was some kind of a bias?

Oh, absolutely.

Oh, absolutely.

And I did absolutely tell them about that, because I was just like,

this is why people leave the field.

I've had multiple instances, multiple things happen where people...

cause we had like defenses.

And I had a professor that did not come to my defense, who was trying to

ask me like, do you know what this is?

For example, I think it was photo dissociation.

And so if we know that I work with upper atmospheres, obviously

I know what I'm talking about.

Yes, of course!

And I didn't answer the question because I had

graduated already at that time.

And so I was just like, why am I answering?

You know, you get where I'm going with this.

And so her rebuttal, because I didn't answer her, her rebuttal was like,

"see, you don't even know what that is.

You're not prepared for grad school."

That's terrible!

And so, yes, yes.

And it was on the heels of me not getting into grad school the

first round, but I was at NASA at the time of this conversation.

And so, things of that nature, right?

There was times where I have been scolded by former advisors, publicly,

because certain things weren't done at a certain time, right?

So there are certain things that I had to literally navigate as a Black woman

in comparison, like, to now where I am in a really supportive environment

where my, first of all, my advisors would never tell me nothing like that.

If my advisor feels like I'm not adequate enough in something, he's

going to say, "read this over."

He's just going to bluntly say, "Read this over," but he's not going to say,

"well, you don't even know what this is.

And..."

he's not going to do that.

Well, would you say that your better advisors have a heightened sense

of understanding that you do have a place here and it's not up to them to

determine whether you have a place or not, but to support what you're trying

to do as professors and advisors?

Absolutely!

Because for them, they always say it really wasn't that long ago, and they

don't want people to go through the same things that they went through.

Students are like your children, essentially.

You want to make sure you put them in good hands.

And the one thing I do love about this space is that they're

like, hold us accountable.

Tell me when I am wrong.

Tell me if I'm hurting your feelings.

Tell me if I'm X, Y, and Z.

They're very, very in touch with how graduate students feel

and how things make them feel.

So, how can I do this better?

And they apologize when they're wrong, too.

Oh, that's great.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, this is supposed to be a working relationship anyway.

So what kind of advice do you have for people that want to help foster

diversity in the hard sciences?

Well, first and foremost, the number one thing is don't

always look to the person of color to do all the hard labor.

Don't look to Black people to do the hard lifting, the heavy labor, everything.

Also, when they are trying to express their feelings, just give them the

floor, give them the ability to express themselves because they

want to be able to talk freely.

But lastly, making sure that you use your privilege to give them opportunities,

make opportunities, and say, "Hey, someone recommended me for this, but

I think you'll be better for this."

And uh, my last question for you, what do you

want Black and Astro to do next?

So we just won the 2023 Royal Astronomical Society Annie Maunder Award.

A medal.

Wow, congratulations!

Thank you.

So we will be going across the pond to receive the medal in person.

Award Ceremony Clip: ...the medal is awarded to Black in Astro, that focuses on

inspiring, developing and enriching Black scientists in astronomy, astrophysics,

and space science related fields.

So we'll continue to provide, collaborate with other

people in different countries.

We'll continue to support our people the best way we can to get them either,

whether they want to be into space sciences, whether they just want to

have a business in the space sciences, whatever it is they want to do.

That sounds wonderful.

Well, thank you very much for taking the time to do this.

I really do appreciate it, you know, I'm so supportive of the work that

you're doing and that Black in Astro is doing, and all across the spectrum of

Black in X, and hopefully we can figure out some way that I can support you

and support those programs even more.

Absolutely!

It's great to see you again.

Likewise, likewise!

And thanks so much for doing this.

No problem.

Thanks again, Ashley, for taking the time to speak with me.

You know, whenever I chat with Ashley, I'm always so impressed by her ability

to accomplish all that she does.

Her work broadens our horizons, both on Earth and in space, whether she's

bringing diversity and equity to science academia, or exploring ice giants.

I know I'm looking forward to hearing of what discoveries she'll make

at the edge of our solar system.

We'll also have links to all the resources Ashley mentioned

throughout the interview in the show notes for you all to check out.

Thanks for joining us today.

We'll see you next time on The Curious Cosmos.

This podcast is made in partnership with RADIOKISMET, Philadelphia's

premier podcast production studio.

This podcast is produced by Amy Carson.

The Franklin Institute's Director of Digital Editorial is Joy Montefusco,

and Erin Armstrong runs Marketing, Communications, and Digital Media.

Head of Operations is Christopher Plant.

Our Mix Engineer is Justin Berger, and I'm Derrick Pitts, Chief

Astronomer and Director of the Fels Planetarium at the Franklin Institute,

and your host for this podcast.

Thanks so much for listening.