In this episode, Trisha interviews Chika Miyamori, Chief Culture Officer at Ideal Leaders and founder of CQ Lab in Japan, whose lifelong mission is building bridges across differences and turning them into power.

What happens when a strong organisational culture becomes its own blind spot? Chika draws on her corporate career spanning Suntory, HP, and GE across more than 50 nationalities, weaving together CQ, the Hofstede cultural dimensions, and the Intercultural Development Inventory (IDI) into a powerful integrated approach — and explores what it truly takes for organisations to move from merely managing differences to thriving with them.

Show Notes

Connect with Chika Miyamori on LinkedIn.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

1. Thriving on Differences: How CQ Shapes Strong Organizational Cultures by Chika Miyamori (currently available in Japanese — an English version is in the works!)
2. Hofstede Insights: hofstede-insights.com — including the Cultural Workplace Questionnaire (CWQ)
3. The Intercultural Development Inventory (IDI): idiinventory.com

Join Trisha in this journey of growth and discovery throughout the year via Substack or LinkedIn.

[00:00:39] Trisha: Hi there everyone. I'm Trisha Carter, an organizational psychologist and an explorer of cultural intelligence. I'm on a quest to discover what enables us to see things from different perspectives.

[00:01:01] The shifts in our thinking, our regular listeners will know that we speak about cultural intelligence cq, and it's made up of four areas, motivational CQ drive, cognitive CQ knowledge, metacognitive CQ strategy and Behavioral CQ action. In this podcast, we often focus. Particularly on CQ strategy, the thinking about our thinking, because in my books, I think it's the critical part to building cultural intelligence.

[00:02:06] And there she led corporate communications and public affairs.

[00:02:57] And I think helping their leaders grow and develop, welcome Chika.

[00:03:08] Trisha: It's wonderful to have you. Yeah. Very, very happy to dive into a little bit of your work and experience, because I know we've got so much to learn from you. So Chika, I always start with the same questions for all my guests. First, what is the culture other than the culture you grew up in, that you have learned to love and appreciate?

[00:03:31] Necessarily stuff for human beings. Without culture, we are not able to survive. And if we use the culture in a more effective way, it can be a really good tool for us to collaborate in a more effective manner. But sadly, sometimes we use the culture in a bad manner that will bring out ization and conflict and misunderstanding.

[00:04:04] Trisha: Yeah, it's some of your organizations was that culture, you know, more supportive than others? You don't need to give examples, but just.

[00:04:27] culture and sometimes strong corporate culture is very helpful to, you know. To think about that same direction, same goals, execute it and communicate in the same manner. But if the culture gets strong enough or too strong, it will be a weakness of their corporations.

[00:04:58] You know what I mean?

[00:04:59] Chika: cause it's easier for us to live in. That kind of strong culture is comfortable and we were successful. But when some uncertanties, when some unpredictability comes in, it's very difficult to see the different perspective outside the organization.

[00:05:33] Chika: The first and deep transformation for me is the time I worked for HP uk. I relocated from Japan to the UK during my HP time, and I found out that, oh my God, my common sense isn't working here at all. And even though we speak the same language, English, my team there are French people, German people, and someone from Eastern Europe, someone from Singapore, someone from India.

[00:06:13] And

[00:06:28] I am not a native English speaker. I have a strong accent, and therefore I think, oh my God, my English fluency is the problem, or my lack of competency is the problem. So I didn't see the fact of the culture, but later when I found out, oh my God, if I knew the cultural impact on the workplace, I might have avoided these mistakes or problems.

[00:06:59] Chika: 10 years

[00:07:07] Chika: and the most difficult for me was the time when I came back from UK to

[00:07:34] with people. And then I was very afraid, you know, appreciated by my US boss, UK boss, European Bosses, but in Japan, my teammate.

[00:07:53] Trisha: Yes. She moved over there and she has just developed terrible skills.

[00:08:26] So in the first meeting with the journalist or the client, I keep smiling to make the meeting be more comfortable or effective or cozy. And then one month later, the hiring manager in UAE he told me, Chika, you need to go back to Japan because we are not able to trust you. You smile too much.

[00:08:53] Chika: And I didn't know what is happening at all.

[00:09:19] I didn't know that, but when I read that article, okay.

[00:09:28] Trisha: Oh, that is and, and there's an element, a part of me feels a bit sad for that younger chica in the sense of, you know, the pain that is, it's not fun when you get misinterpreted

[00:09:50] Chika: Right. It was really painful. Thank you, Trisha, for understanding the younger Chika and when I met the culture and the cultural intelligence, I thought I don't want anybody to experience that pain.

[00:10:31] Are there also good stories there as well?

[00:10:47] Our working hours is really, really long.

[00:11:00] And one day teammate came to me saying, Chika, life is not just work. You need to enjoy your life here in the uk, for example. And where is your family? Your family might not be happy to see you work so hard. So that kind of the different perspective really helped me to see what is life is all about. And if I don't, I didn't go to the uk, I may have continued working very hard.

[00:11:36] Trisha: And listening to people building that understanding of their perspective really sort of expands out your sense of how you can show up at work and who you can be. Yeah I can see how, you know, you have. The experience you have catalyzed the shift to being someone who builds bridges between culture, organization, and people.

[00:12:25] Chika: As far as I understand from our mentor Dr. David Livermore, my book might be the first one to write about the CQ and organizations. The reason I took this theme as my book is that I've been working in the field of corporate communications, which means sometimes I was responsible for the corporate culture and organizational culture, and then I also had a big struggle working in the different nationalities.

[00:13:24] If what would happen if we apply them to the organizational level? And then I can see many great point for us to leverage. And again, I wanna talk about the strong culture. If the culture get strong enough or too strong, it will bling as the pain. So therefore, be aware of. Where is the limit of the strong culture or be aware of how to embrace the differences.

[00:14:06] Trisha: And. If you, so tell us a little bit more, and I'm sort of thinking in the back of my head, perhaps some listeners don't know Hofstede's work. We sort of make some assumptions. I introduced CQ at the beginning of the podcast, but we haven't introduced Hofstede so can you explain just a little bit for those people who may not have an understanding. And we can put your website obviously, which will have the links to you, and if people want to complete the Hofstede questionnaire, they can follow up with you. And I can also put Hofstede's website in as well in the show notes, but tell us now just a little bit about it so that we can understand it better.

[00:15:12] The first one is individualism versus collectivism. I think listeners may understand what they are all about. The second one is how to deal with power, because we really wanted to work and live in an equal society, but we also know that there are lots of inequalities in the world. There are more powerful people in the world.

[00:16:01] Do you want to have more predictabilities before making decisions? This is the emotional needs for us. So there is a two orientation called uncertainty avoidance versus Ambiguity as Threat. So this is the third one that will affect our decision making process. And first one is called achievement. And achievement means what is a success for you?

[00:16:48] So this is the two orientation achievement process, quality of life.

[00:16:55] Chika: Yeah.

[00:17:01] achievement side.

[00:17:23] Chika: My philosophy is not to tell anybody that culture is good or wrong or

[00:17:29] Trisha: Yes.

[00:17:32] Trisha: And I think that might be where organizations get it wrong.

[00:17:38] recently in my clients, they wanted to have their employees to be more automotive. What I mean is that they want them to think by themselves. They really want to want them to get initiatives, but from the cultural perspectives, it's not easy for Japanese to be automative automatically.

[00:18:15] Because if we only have a psychological safety we are going to the group think where. The real important questions or problems will not be solved in the group because it is too comfortable.

[00:18:45] Trisha: yes. You can't expect people to speak up unless you've created a culture where it's safe to do so.

[00:18:53] Chika: Especially when the power distance is very high. Like the countries in, for example east Asia, middle East, or Southeast Asia or South America they are.

[00:19:10] They're happy to follow the direction from the boss

[00:19:23] That's completely different.

[00:19:26] Chika: therefore, how your followers behave in that kind of environment, then change the strategy is the required skill for leaders.

[00:19:58] And you have a number of tools in your toolkit, as we said right at the start. You're an IDI qualified administrator, so that is the intercultural development inventory, and that's something that I've done a little bit of work in as well, and I'm accredited, but definitely not to the, I haven't used it as much as you have.

[00:20:26] Chika: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:29] Chika: Okay, so IDI, intercultural development inventory tells us the level of the differences we can see. For example, at the very first stage when we were born, we are not able to still see the differences. Well, as we grow or as we are socialize, we see the different group of the people and we react to them with emotions let's say us versus them.

[00:21:03] And then when we develop a little bit more, we accept all the differences, but working with differences is not easy. Sometimes it's very exhausting. Therefore, we tend to focus on commonalities. For example, we are all professional.

[00:21:26] And that's really

[00:22:06] Well, I prefer to call it co-creation. This is the stage to build differences for more positive manner to create or find out third and fourth solutions. So this is the stage where we can decide to adapt or not to adapt.

[00:22:35] Many people really want to be innovative and have a sustainable growth. But if they are at the stage of minimization what may happen in the area of new business development or hiring or promotion. How to, you know, handle risks. Again, there might be a blind spot. Therefore, it is easier and important for them to, to go beyond minimization and reach the level of acceptance and cooperation.

[00:23:14] And CQ Drive is all about this.

[00:23:31] example, and when the prioritization is really at 10th, which means people don't have a CQ strategy or CQ action. And at the minimization stage, I think they have a kind of the skills in terms of strategy and but tend to ignore the knowledge part because they really want to focus on the commonalities. This is how I use and integrate those tools.

[00:24:26] And thinking about one of them being right and the other one being wrong, you know? So sort of seeing that one way is better than another. And if we, if those other people are operating that other way.

[00:24:48] So at least there we have the CQ drive, which is, you know, motivating people to lean towards. But leaning towards similarities. So yeah. At that point there's some knowledge education, would you say that comes in helping people to understand how the differences at each end of the continuums of thinking are both positive and can each contribute in some way?

[00:25:40] For example, I will go and find a new job where I will go and create a new facilitation style while my counterpart will be in charge of making the timelines or operations side or analysis, you know what I mean?

[00:26:02] Chika: And both of them are important to be successful.

[00:26:24] Pandemic was getting started and so the executive team with on the board, within the board came together and we needed to make a decision. And so one of the things that we shared as a team was where we stood on that assessment. Because we recognize that assessment would have us thinking differently about risk, and we needed to be able to think about the risk, and then also to think about being able to handle ambiguity and uncertainty because that was such a time of ambiguity and uncertainty.

[00:27:21] Your high uncertainty avoidance speaking there, you know, so it's, it just, it helped to have probably a more open discussion.

[00:27:40] and we don't need to talk about our personality, but this is just a preference.

[00:27:55] Trisha: Mm. Yes. And I think when we are saying. We are talking about different ways of thinking. It's it. It gives you opportunities to see, well, maybe I need to think like that, you know, so we don't need to minimize the differences. We can actually see the values in them. We can see the value in being with somebody who might think differently.

[00:28:42] And at the end of the workshop they said thank you Chika this is really great because we can expand the perspective and this is what we really as a seek facilitator, what we really wanted to hear from the clients.

[00:29:13] You're stepping into that acceptance of the other person for who they are, not trying to change them or minimize them. Yeah. And then you are adapting or co-create, what did you call it, your.

[00:29:45] Chika: Right. They apply their knowledge and motivation and try to find. Third solutions or fourth solution, and there are lots of opportunities and options for them if they have CQ

[00:30:15] Chika: And I really wanted to recommend everybody to integrate the tools if you are CQ professionals, because if we integrate, it will give more power to everybody.

[00:30:30] Yeah. You've lived in the uk, in Spain, and the us and you're currently based in Tokyo. How does the Japanese business context present unique challenges and opportunities when it comes to building culturally intelligent organizations?

[00:31:23] We need to go with the information of 70% was

[00:31:45] quickly.

[00:31:49] To way.

[00:32:06] And I think it is called recursion of Culture because we understand and we wanna change in a positive environment.

[00:32:24] Trisha: Yeah, there is and there is that sense of that's when we need our cq the most. So that's when we need to be leaning into what's going on in my head. What am I thinking about this situation? Or what am I thinking about the unconscious things that I've absorbed from my childhood and being aware of it to be able to overcome a little bit.

[00:32:55] In your book, you talk about the strong organizations and you say you need much more than just purpose. They need to be able to leverage individual values and differences, and that leaders need CQ to master the use of culture.

[00:33:24] What

[00:33:30] Chika: Well,

[00:33:38] They are linking to take them off and put the others' glasses with stair wheel, which is great.

[00:34:00] day. Therefore, it's very easy for them to change the perspective very quickly, and I think this is a beautiful gift for leaders,

[00:34:14] And especially when leaders are getting a. The top level, for example, it's not easy for them to have lots of perspectives because they are on the top. But if those top leaders have that kind of the prospect taking skills created by cq, what is the benefit for the organization as well as the people?

[00:34:41] Trisha: Absolutely and you can sort of see the added bonus that it gives them, you know, from in their position. I mean.

[00:35:02] That's exactly what they're doing. It is beautiful. I imagine it isn't always easy. Have there been times when you've encountered resistance, maybe from some leaders like that or when, you know, in some organizations, perhaps cultural differences felt more like obstacles than opportunities?

[00:35:33] and I have struggled to be quite honest with you, but one time I decided, okay. I can't change their mind and I wanna leverage those differences because they are, they have a very valid point, aren't they?

[00:36:10] I see the way you facilitate the most difficult people in our board members. and that was exactly what we need.

[00:36:21] Yeah.

[00:36:23] You're exemplifying. Yeah, exactly.

[00:36:31] Trisha: Yeah. I mean, it's rewarding work, but it is hard work, isn't it? And you are working across continents

[00:36:55] Chika: That's a really good question, Trisha. I'm not good at treating myself in a luxurious mode, but I try to to have a quick rest like a nap.

[00:37:21] On the other hand, I truly love the stuff I do for my work as well as my life purpose because I truly think that we are all different and which is such a great and beautiful thing and why you really want each one of us can live on their differences to collaborate in a more effective manner. That is my dream. I don't think I can see the harvest in my lifetime, but if I can contribute a little bit, that is one of my motivation driver.

[00:37:55] think for me in this past year, because my son has a baby now, so I have a granddaughter and so I think. It almost doesn't have to be for me, but it does have to be for future generations because we desperately need it. So I find that gives me a longer time view. So it has extended out my time perspective, because I'm

[00:38:20] Yeah.

[00:38:26] For your grandaughter

[00:38:32] Chika standard closing questions, but I'm really keen to know what advice would you give someone who's hoping to follow in your footsteps to be a cultural bridge builder themselves?

[00:39:17] Trisha: That's lovely. Yeah. Thank you. And as you look at your life and the people you've worked with, your family and community and at the future, what are you hoping for?

[00:39:32] Like you, I really wanted to build a

[00:39:49] In their own way, don't need to speak up all the time verbally, but if they wanna speak up in writing, that is also fine. But this is really important because each one of us has a gift and I want to make a society where all the gift are celebrated and it can be liberated.

[00:40:24] Chika: Thank you so much, Trisha, for having me and a great discussion and questions. I truly enjoyed

[00:41:01] Chika: Thanks so much.

[00:41:21] And join us next week on the shift.