Dr. Sam Valerius, from All Critters Veterinary Clinic in Grove City, Ohio, joins us to share information on the basic needs and common ailments of exotic pets. We discuss (in order) snakes, lizards, turtles, birds, spiders, fish, rats, mice, hamsters, and wildlife.

If you own an exotic pet, are contemplating getting one, or if you are in the veterinary field and interested in helping exotics patients in your practice, Dr. Sam is a wealth of information on exotic patient care.

You can find out more information about All Critters Veterinary Hospital at www.allcrittersvet.com

Welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction.

This is your host, Dr.

G and our music is written and produced by Mike Sullivan.

Today we have a special guest, Dr.

Sam Valerius from All Critters Veterinary Hospital.

Welcome Dr.

Sam, and thank you for joining us.

Uh, thank you, Dr.

G.

Yeah.

So one really exciting thing, and the main reason I wanted you to

join us today is that you not only take care of dogs and cats, but you

take care literally of all critters.

So before we get into all the cool and exciting things that you guys

do, can you give us some background information about you, about your

schooling and what brought you to where

you are today?

Sure.

So, um, yeah, my name's Dr.

Valerius, Dr.

Sam as people call me.

Um, and, uh, I've been an Ohio native and worked in Ohio basically my entire life.

Went to undergraduate at Ohio Wesleyan University up in Delaware, Ohio.

Um, and then went to Ohio State for veterinary school and graduated

about 10 years ago and have been practicing in central Ohio since then.

Um, and yes, about 50, 40% of my patients are cats and dogs,

and about 50% are exotics.

And that really includes the whole, the whole gamut of animals.

Um, we get the exotic companion mammals, so your rabbits, your Guinea pigs, your

rats, mice, hamsters, chinchillas, sugar gliders, um, any small mammal pocket pet.

Essentially we get our birds, so small, little budgies to

the large parrots, cockatoos, cockatiels, everything in between.

Uh, and then our reptiles, our snakes, lizards, and turtles.

And then what I call kind of the non-traditional species that

includes fish, uh, invertebrates.

So spiders, um, scorpions, hermit crabs.

Uh, I have people that do falconry, so we'll get some red

tail hawks, um, or owls sometimes.

Uh, and then non domesticated or native wildlife.

So pet raccoons, pet skunks, pet possums.

Um, I've dealt with wallabies and, and really just about everything,

but monkeys is what I tell people.

I'll see.

So, um, all the, all those different animals that, uh, you sometimes see on

TV or, or see, hear people ha owning.

I'm, I'm the veterinarian for them.

Um, I've not dealt with a ton of, um, really big cats, but I do have some

people that own bobcats and foxes is probably the, the biggest, um,

carnivores that I deal with essentially.

So, yeah, that's, that's my, my brief introduction.

Um, yeah, I mean, I got introduced to this really, it was, it wasn't a.

A goal of mine.

It wasn't like I grew up with all these different animals.

I grew up a dog person.

Um, and then, uh, when I got married, my wife's a cat person, so we have

five cats, you know, right now.

So plenty of cats.

And I would always tell people I love cats and dogs.

There's, there's nothing against them or nothing wrong with them whatsoever.

They're great pets.

Um, but there's a lot of other animals out there too.

And, uh, when I was in undergrad as well as in vet school, I trained under Dr.

Burton, uh, who started the Ohio Wildlife Center, who I know you

had on the Wildlife Center on, uh, your podcast a little bit ago.

Uh, and I, I've been volunteering there for, uh, 15 years or so, and, you know,

and you're becoming a veterinarian.

Oftentimes it's your experiences that kind of, uh, lead you down the path

of what you feel comfortable with.

If you have worked with large animals, you're gonna feel

comfortable with cattle and horses.

If you've worked with cats and dogs, you're gonna feel

comfortable with cats and dogs.

And I just, you know, have worked with a lot of different animals and

I am comfortable, um, Being put in a position where I may not know a

hundred percent of what's going on, but I can at least try and come up

with a plan of what's next to do.

Um, and I think that's why a lot of vets don't do that.

A lot of vets just don't have that experience.

Um, we don't get a lot of it in veterinary school, which you

can probably attest to as well.

Um, it's something that you really have to kind of seek out on your own.

And unfortunately, it's just there's too much in medicine.

You know, we get way too much information thrown at us to trying to, to figure

out what all the, the pickup while you're going through school can

be a little, a little challenging.

So that's, that's what I've decided to pick up, uh, over the years.

And, and yeah, we can talk more about whatever individual, um,

questions you have with that.

Yeah.

I think that it's great because throughout, you know, my practice, there's

always been people that have called asking "do you know who can take care of a snake?

Do you know who can take care of a bird?"

And, and a lot of people don't understand that you have to have

certain amount of experience and certain amount of knowledge to be able to

properly advocate for those animals.

Just, you know, if you don't have enough experience with something, we can

learn, we can find out stuff, but having somebody that has worked with those, those

animals is just really super important.

And unfortunately, not a lot of veterinarians want to work with

the exotics, as you mentioned.

And yes, I can attest to school doesn't really completely prepare us

to deal with all the different species.

Most everything is based on dogs, cats, and, and large animals.

So being able to, to find veterinarians that are willing to deal with these

small animals can be, can be difficult.

So, uh, let's, what I wanna share with our listeners is going to be some of the, the

common issues that we see in veterinary medicine with some of these exotics.

Uh, what are the important things to know about their care, and then some

of the cool cases that you have seen.

So I guess let's start with snakes.

Uh, so what are the, what are the common mistakes that people make

when they get a snake if they don't know how to, how to handle one?

It's funny, you start with snakes, because of all the animals I

deal with, snakes have to be one of the most misrepresented or misunderstood.

So many people have a fear of snakes, and it extends to veterinarians too.

Even among exotic animal veterinarians, there are places that will see.

You know, whatever animal, but they won't see snakes.

That's the one exception they won't see that animal for, for whatever reason.

Um, and by and large, most snakes are, are pretty nice.

Yes, there are a couple that you have to watch out for sure.

But, but by and large, they're, they're pretty easy to handle and I,

I enjoy working with them quite a bit.

Um, when you're getting a snake, uh, you know, the big thing to know is, you

know, what, what type of snake this is.

Um, there are a lot of different morphs.

Um, there are a lot of different common breeds.

The ball, python being probably the most common one that we see as a, as a pet.

Um, just understand, okay, what type of enclosure do I need for it?

What type of, and this will be a common theme among I'm sure our

discussion here, temperature, humidity.

Uh, you know, think about the basic care we need for a dog and cat, you

know, and expand that to other animals.

Now I'll kind of answer a lot of what you need to do.

We know a dog and a cat may need food, they need water, they need shelter.

So a snake will need the same thing.

It's just gonna be in a different package, essentially, you know, a dog is going to

live in a similar environment to a person.

So we don't usually worry about what the temperature is set to in the house

because if we're comfortable, the dog odds are, is comfortable and, and vice versa.

If they're not comfortable, we're probably not comfortable.

Um, if we're thirsty, they're thirsty.

We all know.

Give them a bowl of water.

We all know the feed them, and so on and so forth.

Well, You know, a snake, you know, depending on what snake you get, is

gonna be from a different environment.

It's not gonna necessarily live in a 70, 75 degree house.

It may live in a jungle, it may live in the sand, it may live in a hundred degree

weather, it may live in 60 degree weather.

It just kind of depends on, on where you're getting that

from in regards to, to eating.

You know, a dog is pretty easy to, to watch.

Hey, I ate breakfast, I hate dinner, rinse and repeat.

Every day.

A snake is going to eat once a week, once every couple weeks, maybe once a month.

You start getting to the really big ones.

You go to a zoo and you see one of those, you know, 20 foot

long big pythons or something.

It may only eat once a year, so, It's a lot more difficult to kind of watch and

manage, Hey, are we eating appropriately?

Are we getting our appropriate food in when we may not eat

at the same consistency?

And then, of course, you know, water and temperature, um, that's just more of a

basic, making sure we have a big enough enclosure with appropriate lighting.

Keeping them warm enough.

Uh, you know, it, it, it can get a little complicated, but really you

just have to start with the basics and then work your way from there.

One of the, one of the concerns that people have is

feeding live animals, the snakes.

Mm-hmm.

So I know that some people think that that is the best thing, but then there's

also concerns about the, the damage that these life prey can cause on the snakes.

So can you talk about what would be the, the best things to feed to a snake?

Yeah, in general, we're gonna talk about frozen, uh, thawed.

You know, rats or mice would be the most common thing.

So, um, these are, these are carcasses that you can buy.

You just thaw them out and feed them.

And most snakes, uh, take that fairly well.

Um, there is a, a misconception that a lot of snakes won't eat unless it's

a live animal, that that isn't true.

Um, there actually is fake, uh, how do I describe this?

Sausage patties, that you can buy some snakes nowadays.

It's not super common.

It's not a, it's a brand new thing probably in the past year or two

that they've started coming out with.

Um, so it doesn't even look like a rat.

It looks like a sausage link to me.

Um, but some snakes will actually adapt to that and eat that.

Um, the risk with a a, um, A live animal when you're feeding that,

number one is you ha now have another animal to take care of.

You know, depending on, you know, I'm assuming you're not going out

and buying this animal, you know, right away and then coming home and

feeding to your snake, cuz maybe your snake doesn't wanna eat right away.

And okay, now you've got a, a rat that you have to care for for a

week, two weeks, however long it is.

Um, they could have parasites, they could have other problems.

So you're gonna have to address that.

And then when you're actually feeding the snake, I mean, nature is not, uh,

nature can be a bit cruel sometimes, and that's both to predator and the prey.

And so you can have instances where the rat or mouse is gonna fight back.

You can have bites, you can have wounds.

So if you're having a, a pet snake for whatever reason, do you want to expose

your pet to the risk of getting bit?

And the answer usually is no, because now you're gonna have other medical concerns.

You could have an infection, you could have, you know, some sort of, some wound

care that can take a while to heal.

What if behaviorally a snake gets attacked by something it

may not want to eat a live prey.

Where we have seen that before where they almost get scared.

They're like, well, that, that brown rat attacked me last time and I don't

want to eat a brown rat anymore.

Um, and those are the only ones that you can find maybe to, to feed your snake.

So, you know, we would much prefer frozen, um, in just about every, every case.

Uh, there are some snakes that don't eat, um, live or frozen, more the egg

ones, but those aren't really pet snakes.

Those are really hard to keep in captivity.

So we generally don't even bring it up in conversation.

Usually you're gonna be looking for, for frozen.

So what are the most common issues that you see as far as diseases or

problems that, that snakes will, will have

easily?

The top two problems we see are parasites causing, um, anorexia or not eating

and upper respiratory infections.

And this gets back to what I said earlier about the snake.

How often does it eat?

Uh, that can be a very difficult thing to understand because there are times

when snakes won't eat for an extended period of time and they're perfectly fine.

They just don't want to eat.

Um, so usually we end up deworming them or doing fecal tests, the check for

parasites and, and treating appropriately Upper respiratory infections very common.

This gets back to humidity and temperatures.

If a snake is not kept in its normal range of temperatures, and even if it is,

sometimes they can still get sick, uh, you may see up respiratory infections.

We commonly see this with sneezing bubbles from the nose, um,

sometimes not eating as well.

Wheezing.

Um, your standard upper respiratory signs just in snake form, essentially.

Um,

something that I have heard is that snakes can grow faster

if they eat more frequently.

Is there truth about that, that you can change their, um, their growth rate

based on the nutrition that they get?

A little bit.

I would extend that to almost all reptiles, um, turtles, lizards and snakes.

Um, if they're good eaters, they're going to grow and they're going to get bigger.

If they're poor eaters, they're not going to grow as well.

Um, and their, their growth can be stunted.

Um, I have seen similarly aged animals, so let's say they're both

two years old and, um, you know, I, I can always remember this, uh,

bearded dragon, actually, I, I saw two beard of dragons, um, back to back.

One was a healthy wellness exam, nothing wrong with it, and it was a year

old, and it was, I think, 300 grams.

Just as a, as a, a general idea.

And then we saw another one right after it.

Now, this one, uh, no fault to the owner had a virus that stunted its growth.

It ate, but it ate much, much less than what you would expect to see.

Now this was also a year old, um, but this bearded dragon was 30 grams, so it was

a 10th of the size of the other lizard, even though they both were the same age.

And as far as the owners could tell, we're both eating well.

It just, eating well was different for each individual.

Uh, we will see that with, with reptiles across the board.

Yeah.

So speaking of bearding, like that's probably my favorite.

Le lizard is gonna be a, a bearded dragon.

So what are gonna be the, the things that people need to take into consideration

when they're bringing a bearded dragon or other lizards into the, into the

home to make sure that they're not having deficiencies and problems?

Oh, yeah.

So big thing would be, um, again, we talked temperatures, humidity, not a big

deal with bearded dragons, but making sure we're in a nice temperature range, um,

looking at our calcium supplementation.

So, um, it's very important we try to match the natural environment

for reptiles, whatever that may be.

So a bearded dragon is going to live out in a more deserted

area, some more hot, more arid.

We're gonna try and match that, having a nice hot, arid environment at home.

Um, we just still offer water just because that, that makes us feel good

to make sure they have some fresh water available, but it's not as important.

But calcium is gonna be very important if they're not getting the

proper calcium, um, in their diet.

Or through lighting.

Then we're gonna have the classic reptile disease that, um, hopefully anyone who's

ever owned a reptile has heard of, to some extent, metabolic bone disease.

Um, which is just basically you're not getting enough calcium and the

calcium in your bones is then used to supplement what you need to survive.

Um, I kind of think of like an astronaut disease.

If, you know, people go up in space, they don't need their bones as much,

they lose that strength in their bones.

Um, it's the same thing.

They're gonna lose their strength in their bones across most of their

body, primarily in their legs.

But it can be in their jaw, it can be in their spine, it can be anywhere.

You have a bonette and that weakness can lead to lefty

genee and again, not doing well.

Eventually pathological fractures can occur.

Um, these guys can recover quite well.

It's just you don't wanna have to get behind the eight ball

when you're dealing with this.

So adding supplemental calcium, they usually comes in a powder form.

You can mix them with their food.

Uh, we do it usually daily when they're young and we kind of decrease

it when they're adults, making sure they're getting that UV light.

Very important to, to supplement what Sunlight does as a natural state.

Um, we're here in Ohio, so.

Right now it's June.

Great time to take your reptile outside and get natural UV light.

I find these guys do infinitely better if they can get a little

outside time, you have to watch out.

They'll run off if you're not careful.

So you want to keep the mirror contained, or especially if beard or dragons

people will have harnesses that you can either buy or make yourself, um, online.

Um, very cute to kind of put little wings on theirs and have your little dragons.

Um, and then obviously during, during the cold, during the winter, we can't

do that in Ohio, so you have to kind of take the advantage when you can.

Um, but UV light, calcium lizard by far the two most important things.

And what are the things that lizards are going to be eating?

So usually they're gonna eat, they're mostly insectivores, but they're

also gonna be eating bugs or, berries, plants, some kind of greens as well.

Uh, you know, I would especially beard to dragons.

They're just like people.

They prefer meat and they don't eat as much greens as they probably should.

Sometimes you get lucky and you get one that really likes

their greens, but not always.

Um, but that combination, uh, you think of meal worms or crickets or

there's a variety of worms on that you can find and, and figure out which

one's best for your individual lizard.

Um, sometimes people will feed even small, uh, we'll call

pinkies or, you know, dead mice.

Um, some of those guys can eat that as well.

Skinks will sometimes eat that.

Um, there's, there's a variety and I think a variety's a good idea.

You don't wanna just have one thing, you know, just like we give dogs treats,

we can give treats to lizards too, you know, whether that be a special

bug for special occasions or a special berry if they're really like that.

Um, it just kind of, that depends on which one you're talking about.

And one of the things that some people don't realize is that

these animals can go into like a hibernation state if it gets too cold.

Uh, so can you talk a little bit about that, about, um, the, the

temperature ranges that they may go into hibernation and Sure.

How they come out of that?

Yeah.

So, and the, we call that bration and reptiles, and that's where they, yeah,

they go to a hibernate state where they'll just get very lazy, lethargic,

they'll stop eating, they'll stop moving as much, they'll kind of shut down a

little bit and think of hibernation.

Um, it can happen in a variety of temperatures.

It doesn't have to be a certain, it's 20 degrees cooler than what they

should be in or anything like that.

Uh, sometimes it can happen just as a seasonal thing.

They'll almost get like seasonal depression.

Just like people sometimes where, Hey, I've had this lizard verb.

Eight years and every winter for two months, they go into a formation period,

and then around March they come out of it.

All of a sudden that can happen.

Um, there are many animals that don't go in formation.

It really depends on the individual.

And I think that's, it can be challenging to figure out when and reptile is

sick versus when a reptile is going through a normal brumation period.

And sometimes you have to rely on just what is the history of this

animal And that, that is very tough.

If you just bought this lizard and it's your first winter going

through them, you, you may not know.

And unfortunately we as vets may not know either there's no magic blood test or

thing I can do to stimulate them to say, oh yeah, this is what's, what's going on.

Um, my general rule of thumb, and one good thing that people can do at

home is get a gram scale, just a a little scale that you can get from.

You know, Goodwill or, or Amazon does not matter.

Just get a scale and get used to weighing your animal once a

week, every other week or so.

And just seeing are, we losing weight.

You know, if you're not losing weight that hibernated state is, is taking over,

you're have a very low metabolic need.

The body is handling itself fine if you are losing weight.

And usually my cutoff is about 10% of their body weight.

So if you have a 500 gram animal and you lose 50 grams, that's a concern.

Now we need to see a vet, now we need to talk to someone and say,

Hey, maybe something's going on here.

We need to, need to look into a little bit more.

So going, continuing reptile, talking about turtles, there are so

many different types of turtles, right?

So we have the ones that need water and we have the ones that don't need water.

Mm-hmm.

So let's start with the ones that live in the water.

What are going to be their, their primary needs?

Yeah, so a again, it's gonna be checking out that water quality, um,

having a water filter, changing that water filter and making sure that they're

in a, a good environment essentially.

Um, even though they're water turtles.

And we'll briefly touch on, you know, land turtles with that too.

You know, even though they're primarily in the land of the

water, they can still have.

The other environment a little bit, you know, so if you've got a

turtle that's primarily on the land, it can still soak in some water

every now and then, that's fine.

Um, if you've got a water turtle, it's perfectly fine to what I call dry docking.

Taking it out and keeping it outta the water if you need, like give it

medication or you're cleaning the cage or, or something along those lines, um,

that is not going to, you know, kill this turtle by doing that for a little bit.

Um, when we have water turtles, we'll provide them good basking areas.

You know, I see some people that provide a small little rock and the turtle never

uses it and they're like, well, I don't know why is he, well, he can't fit, he

can't, he can't keep his body on there.

He is.

He's not a small snoop weight.

He needs a nice big basking area to come out and, and hang out in the sun.

Go down to a metro park sometime and just look in the river.

You'll see turtles basking all over the place.

Um, they love having a good basking spot.

So I.

Making sure we're just giving them enough space and opportunities

to choose what they wanna do.

Um, this kinda gets back to actually a temperature with,

with lizards a little bit.

I probably should have mentioned that.

You know, when you're giving a a temperature, you want a gradient, you

want one area to be a little hotter and one area to be a little cooler so

that that am animal can decide, hey, right now I wanna be in the hot area.

Right now I'm be in the cool area.

Just like, you know, if we're at home and we wanna put a, a hoodie on cuz

it's a little cold, the AC kicks on.

Or, you know, it's, it's the wintertime, you wanna put a blanket or, you know, some

of us just wear shorts all winter long.

It just depends on what your own personal feelings are.

It's the same with the reptile.

You wanna make sure they have options and they're not kind of stuck in

one area, um, without any place.

The the choose from.

And what are gonna be the things that they need as far as nutrition?

So nutrition, um, really depending on the trail, what we've

talked more about, fish or smelt, um, giving them some of that.

Um, you can get a variety of, of bugs too, some greens, depending

on what exactly you're looking at.

Even just chopped up lettuce is perfectly fine.

Um, we do usually like a multivitamin with our, especially our water turtles.

Uh, vitamin A is a nice supplement to have with there.

And, um, it's not one that is hard to, to give.

There usually is either a vitamin A powder, um, or just again, getting

it in fish is, is generally fine.

Uh, keeping up with that will prevent a lot of eye disease.

We see sometimes we'll get some ear infections actually in turtles.

Um, and then, yeah, I, I think that's the main multivitamin I'd look at.

Then how about land turtles?

Where are gonna be their needs?

Like, yeah, so again, we, we start, we start talking

like tortoises and such.

Um mm-hmm.

You know, it, and we start this, this is where it changes quite a bit based

on what turtle you're talking about.

Uh, and we still in, in the veterinary medical field are very early on

in deciding what is normal versus abnormal for many of these guys.

So you think of a desert tortoise, they're designed to live in a dry desert area,

and they're designed to go without water for a pretty extended period of time.

Sometimes, um, depending on which, well, let me give you an example actually.

So if we have a cat that comes into the hospital and they're in kidney

failure, we have thousands upon thousands of cats that we can look and say,

oh yes, this is what a normal range for the kidney values are, and this

is what kidney failure looks like.

And it's pretty easy to diagnose.

In turtles, we, we don't always have that because the creatinine value, which is in

cats that are value for kidney failure, for instance, let's say a cat with a 20

creatinine, that would be super high.

You and I would both go, oh my gosh, this is really bad.

We need to flush those kidneys out.

Very bad.

There are tortoises that would have a creatinine of 20, and that's normal

for them, um, because they're used to having their kidneys challenged

that much in their environment.

Um, so it, it's really hard for us to know a hundred percent this is what

we need when they can change based on, hey, they're used to having a dry season

where for the next three months they're not getting any water, and now they're

gonna go gulp down some water on this day and now take care of it for a while.

Um, in general though, We want plenty of, of nice, uh, hay to

kinda help with their digestion.

They're not going to eat, you know, most of these guys are herbivores.

They're not gonna eat bugs.

They will eat bugs from time to time.

But, you know, berries and fruits and, um, kind of a variety of things

that they can kind of pick at.

Uh, a lot of people like to keep the bigger turtles, um, or tortoises outside.

Um, again, in Ohio that's.

Pretty fine for most of the year.

Obviously we start getting a little colder months off to watch out for that.

Turtles are a lot faster and a lot more mischievous than

people give 'em credit for.

They will break out the fences, they will figure out a way to get around the lock.

Um, you definitely have to keep your eye out on 'em.

Don't, don't just walk away and say, well, I'll be back in five minutes.

Nothing will happen.

No, they will totally break free.

We've had turtles go into, you know, into the road.

People get called because they have no idea what this turtle is.

There are some common escapees that we deal with.

Some people will actually.

Um, put little duct tape on their shell and they'll mark down a phone

number, much like a, a dog tag, essentially say, Hey, if you find my

turtle, please call, call this number.

Cause I'm worried sick about them.

And he wasn't supposed to get out, but he did.

Um, you know, they, they, they are very inquisitive and they like to

run around and investigate things.

So, uh, especially with the torress, don't just get a small

little gallon tank and pink.

They'll be fine with it.

They like to come out, they'll walk around the house, they'll play

with toys, they'll run around with cats and dogs as best as they can.

Um, they're, they're very inquisitive animals.

And you know, we always tell people that they have to, to understand that

animals are a lifetime, you know, their lifetime that we have to take care of.

But these are animals that may outlive us, so, oh yeah.

What are the, what are the life ranges or the, yeah, the life

expectancy of some of these guys.

Yeah, so the common ones we start dealing with like, uh, box turtles

or sliders or, um, map turtles and such.

You may easily get to the 20 range or so.

Um, you start getting to the bigger ones, like the skata tortoises.

40, 50, 60, 70 years is not uncommon at all.

So, you know, I'm, I'm almost 37 actually, my, and uh, let's say I

already get a sulcata, you know, next week for my birthday or something.

Um, yeah, I could be easily dead and that thing is still doing

perfectly fine 40 years from now.

Um, if you look at normal life expectancy, so having a plan, whether

that be a family member, whether that be a will, uh, is uncommon

people to, to have that discussion.

Um, the worst thing you can do is.

Get one of those animals and then no one in your family wants it at all.

And that does happen because then, you know, now that people are taking it to

the vet, they don't really know how to take care of this animal necessarily.

They don't know what its needs are, what its medical history is.

Um, you know, we, we definitely would, would prefer, hey, try and have a

little bit of a plan or, you know, if you've got kids, maybe talk to 'em and

say, Hey, this is maybe yours one day.

You know, uh, depending on how, how things play out, um, and

getting 'em prepped for that.

Um, you touched about, you know, using the, the shell to as identification,

but one of the things that is important for people to know is that the

shell is extremely important to 'em.

Um, and they can have injuries to those shells that can be.

Really horrific, but yet they can heal from them.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Yeah.

So when I went, I did a visit at the, uh, auto Ohio Wildlife, and

they had a, a turtle that had a really horrible, uh, crack shell.

So is that something that, that happens often and what, what

does it take to help 'em heal?

Yes, it does.

So wild turtles, we see this all the time, whether it be a hit by a car

or, um, I've seen actually turtles get attacked by dogs and have dog bites

where they'll lose part of their shell.

The shell is a living part of their body.

It's not some, like a rock that's just sitting there.

Um, it has a blood supply.

It actually has nerves.

Um, you can get infections, you can get wounds.

When it comes to a, a broken shell, they actually heal really well.

It just takes time, you know?

Um, think of a, like a skin wound and you know, you're used to the cats and dogs.

We think of like a.

When's, say we spay a dog?

You know, skin and skin should heal 10 to 14 days.

You know, we used to two weeks, you're fine.

Everything's healed.

And think about anytime we get cuts, it's the same way.

You know, week or two, you're, you're pretty much healed.

Uh, turtles just take a much, much longer time.

Usually a shell's gonna take three to six months to heal.

Now that doesn't mean you need aggressive.

I'm taking it to the vet for three to six months.

That just means we just mean to be careful for three to six months.

Um, sometimes we'll use wires, sometimes we'll use suture.

I've even seen, depending on if it's a, a mild break, you can use just duct tape.

Honestly.

Um, the, the shell is very resilient and very good at healing.

So, We just need to kind of keep it in the right position, how,

whatever tool we need to do that.

Um, and then, uh, it'll, it'll take care of itself given enough time, maybe

some antibiotics if it's infected.

Um, if anyone, you know, if you've ever been online and you see those turtles with

Lego wheels on the bottom of their shell, you know, you can glue things, you can put

things on the shell to assist with that.

It's not gonna be internally absorbed.

That is perfectly fine to do that.

So that's why we can get away with some, you know, medical tape

or, or various other things just to kind of keep that in place.

Um, and then just checking in as need be to, to make sure it's healing.

I have seen a, uh, a couple shell injuries.

People get turtles, um, and they live in an apartment, maybe live on the second

or third floor, and they don't realize, again, that turtles are inquisitive and

they'll walk right off the balcony cuz they don't really know what they're doing.

Uh, they'll survive, they'll be fine.

They'll have a cracked shell.

Um, it'll look a little bloody, uh, definitely freak people out,

but we can definitely fix them.

So, how easy or hard is it to medicate a turtle?

Uh, it can be easy.

Um, we can train turtles to take pills or liquid sometimes.

Uh, oftentimes when we're giving in inject uh, medications to turtles,

we try to stick to injections.

So, you know, and we'll train clients how they give injections,

much like an insulin, um, needle at home for a diabetic cat or dog.

We will train them, Hey, here's an injection and we want you to give this.

Maybe every day, maybe every couple of days.

Um, in the really more aggressive cases, uh, I have placed

feeding tubes and turtles.

Uh, it's a really actually easy procedure.

I try to teach a lot of veterinary students that because it, it makes

things infinitely easier for us.

Cause now we have an opening directly that we can give liquid or pill medication to.

And again, we're gonna use that shell to the fullest advantage.

So actually, I, I usually tape the feeding tube to the shell and it makes

the turtle look like a little tank.

And then you have direct access to, to what you need to do.

And that feeding tube can stay there for one to three months.

The turtle doesn't mind it at all.

And then we just take it out when, when we're fully healed, whatever that may be.

Yeah.

. So let's go into birds.

I will tell you that when I was in, before I started vet school,

the veterinary practice that I worked at, uh, my boss loved birds.

So he had African grays, he had, uh, cockatoos.

So I was exposed to them.

, I fed them, I handled them.

And then when I went to vet school, I took the electives with Dr.

Oglesbee, and I did great at those electives.

And what I came out with at the end of that is I don't wanna

work with birds ever again.

Yes.

And, and it was, and it was partly, I, I knew how to handle them and

such, but I didn't know all the complexities of dealing with them.

Mm-hmm.

And I didn't feel comfortable providing the proper care that they needed.

So I would do certain things, but not everything.

So, uh, so I really appreciate that you're around to take care

of the birds that I will not.

Um, so what can you tell us, let's start with the, the smaller birds.

What are going to be the, the most common needs of, of smaller birds?

Sure.

And, and, and I would say your experience is not uncommon, even

among, again, exotic veterinarians.

Um, birds are not, uh, you either love 'em or you hate 'em.

It seems there's not really a middle ground with birds.

Um, part of it's because they're, they're very smart animals, just in general.

Mm-hmm.

They can learn a lot.

Um, their owners are usually very attached to them.

Uh, with the smaller birds, the problem you get is these are very

delicate animals, and this is one of those, the more, you know, the more

you get freaked out by things because you have a, let's say a little buggy

that's 20 to 30 grams, and I mean, we are huge in comparison to them.

It is so easy to.

To cause problems just by mishandling them in some way.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and it really, as a, as a vet, you really just have to, oh boy, here we go.

You know, let's make sure we know what we're doing with this.

And if you're not comfortable with it, you definitely can psych

yourself out with it quite a bit.

Um, most common, you know, birds in general are gonna

be very sensitive to smells.

So, and, um, and things around the household.

So candles, perfumes, um, anything will be a strong scent.

You wanna make sure that's not overbearing the bird or, or getting in the way.

Um, non-stick cooking utensils, um, are very toxic to birds that

can stick to their lungs and create respiratory problems.

So we don't want them around.

Um, the kitchen and, and even with the kitchen, you know, hear people that,

oh, my bird will be loose in the house, you know, and then he flies down.

Make sure he is not trying to perch on the hot stove or, you

know, a frying pan or something.

Cause you can get burns that way quite easily.

Uh, but respiratory infections, whether that be due to some strong aroma or just.

A general respiratory infection are by far the most common things we

deal with closely behind that would be fractures or injuries, injuries

to the wings, injuries to the feet.

Uh, again, even, even if you take great care of these guys, they have

very small legs and very small wings, and they're gonna be more prone to

just having very small injuries, but they're gonna be big for them.

Um, and whether that's be, you know, a kid mishandling them, or

the bird trying to escape a cat or dog in the house, there's, there's

a variety of reasons it can happen.

Yeah.

One of the things that I did do, and you know, when I did see some birds

was going to be like problems with their beaks, like overgrown beaks,

and they were unable to, to eat.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, so how common is that problem and what can people do to prevent that?

Yeah, it, it is quite common.

Um, again, I, I usually see it more in the bigger birds, but we

do see it in the smaller birds too.

Um, overgrown beaks, it's pretty easy to tell.

The beak is overgrown, as you can imagine, just like a nail would be very long.

The beak gets very long.

Uh, generally speaking, we believe this is due to inadequate

diet, um, or liver disease.

And, uh, I, I'd say we, we don't have a great success of actually

diagnosing liver disease on blood work.

I, I try it sometimes, but I don't usually see a, a great change with that.

But I usually blame the diet.

Um, we would prefer pelleted food and not seed food for most of our birds.

So you go to the pet store and you're looking for food.

You see.

This bright seed mix with a whole bunch of different colors and

it's got fun things on the front.

And unfortunately when you're in medicine, the more colors and the more fun things.

Um, we don't really like those, we want bland, boring stuff, you know,

that's the healthy option and that, and that's really what happens Now.

It happens, but not every bird gets an overgrow beak for meeting a seed mix.

It's just some of them do.

And um, we, so we would recommend, hey, try and get an appellated diet.

Usually once you get an overgrown beak though, it's gonna be that way lifelong.

It's not gonna just re you know, regrow back to normal

because you switched the diet.

So if we can try and prevent that, that would be ideal.

Um, making sure that we get a variety and we're eating the variety,

cuz again, birds are very smart.

So if you get that big mix of colors, they may like all the red things,

but they may not like the purple or greens or blues or so on and so forth.

So that food may be very balanced, but if you're only eating one part of it, you're

not getting that whole balanced nutrition.

So how about the, the bigger birds?

One of the biggest issues that I saw with the bigger birds was people

trimming their, uh, their wings mm-hmm.

And then causing damage and trauma for that, so, mm-hmm.

Why do people do that?

And what are the problems that can

happen from it?

Yeah, so one of the, you know, we try to, I try to bring it back to basics, you

know, with, with reptiles they're cold blooded, so we have to think about that.

And that's why we talk about temperature with birds.

They have wings, they can fly.

And so that is right off the bat, something that's different

from owning a counter dog.

And when they can fly, now all of a sudden you can have

different problems that occur.

A ceiling fan is now of a sudden a potential injury, you know?

Um, likewise, let's say you're a family of five.

You've got three kids.

What are kids doing?

They're running in and outta the house constantly all the

time going inside and outside.

Um, well now you have an open window or open door that bird can fly out and.

You know, how are you gonna get that bird?

Now if it's in a 50 foot tree, that can be very difficult to do.

And so sometimes wing clipping is done as a safety precaution just to make

sure, hey, we can keep this animal and it's not going to go outside.

Um, especially if it's the wintertime or, or if it's, you know, brightly colored.

It's not gonna, you know, blend in.

We have plenty of hawks in Ohio that will happily.

Take a look at that and say, that's a fresh meal, we're happy to eat you.

Um, other times it's done just because that's what people prefer to do.

I, I would prefer birds are not clipped.

I just think if you're gonna own a bird, that the reason of owning a

bird is to have something that flies.

So that makes sense.

But you just have to take those precautions, you know?

Um, the big thing with wing clipping that I see a problem is people do it too young.

You cannot do it on young birds.

A young bird, you know, much like a young animal of anything is trying

to learn how to use its body.

And if you clip those wings, and even with nail trims, they see

the same thing with nail trims.

You clip those nails too short.

Now they don't know how they grip, they don't know how to fly.

They don't know how to get their balance.

And let's say a year later you've got the bird and you're like, oh, you know what?

Maybe I wanna let those, those wings.

Grow out a bit, we're gonna have those feathers grow out.

That bird may have no idea how to fly at all, and it's gonna be the most

clumsy individual you've ever seen, and it's never gonna learn, unfortunately.

So really waiting to do that until you've had the bird for a while or

until it's older to decide, Hey, is this a, a good lifestyle choice for us?

Would, would be what I would recommend for, for wing terms, at least, you know.

And what are gonna be the, the problems if they do it wrong?

If they do it wrong.

Um, so I mean, I have seen cases where literally the, the

feathers don't grow back, period.

So now you know you're not gonna get that back when feathers are growing

and you can, you can google an image of what's a blood feather is.

Um, new feathers when they come in, have a blood supply to them.

And then once the feather becomes an adult or um, a, uh, fully grown feather, it

doesn't no longer has that blood supply.

So if you were to pluck that feather, nothing happens.

But if you were to cut that new feather.

It's an active blood supply.

It's just like cutting your skin and it will bleed.

Uh, it will, you know, think of like cutting a nail too short.

It's kinda the same thing, but I would say a bit more traumatic to the bird and

a bit more traumatic to the owner too.

And honestly, we get a lot of owners that don't want anything

to do with wink trims at home.

They do not wanna do themselves because they've either gone through that or

they've seen it, or they've heard of it.

And it is, it can be very scary.

Um, the birds will get actually anemic and weak from that.

They'll lose enough blood.

Uh, they don't usually die, but it is a very traumatic

thing for everyone involved.

One thing that, uh, I don't think a lot of people realize is that birds

will have air within their bones.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

So what are, what are the, what are the issues that are seen, for

instance, if they have a fracture,

Yeah.

So depending on what bone gets, gets fractured, uh, you may be able to do some

different orthopedic pins or you may not.

Um, honestly, I, I find with, with fractures, the bigger

issue is what, what's our goal?

Um, we talk about fractures and mammals.

We really only care about the bones.

Uh, but in birds, we care about the muscles almost just as much.

Um, and nerves.

If you are getting too much scar tissue, and let's say you'd have 95%

range of motion in your leg, you can go back to a normal function with it.

Same with a dog, same with, you know, a rabbit or whatever.

But now imagine a bird fractured to swing and.

You know, you get 95% function back, but that 5% means that wing

can't extend as much as it used to.

Can that bird get flight?

Can we get back to the same level of, of what that bird was

experiencing before the fracture?

Not always.

Um, really with, with the noc b the noc bones, the bones that

have air in them, uh, it makes it just a little more interesting.

But from a fracture repair standpoint, we can still do a lot

of the same things that we wanna do.

Um, it's just we have to be careful with the amount of inflammation that

you get with the surrounding tissue.

At least I find.

Yeah.

What are gonna be when with the big birds that my boss used to have, you

know, they had their, their feed, but then they also ate a lot of people food.

Like he shared a lot of stuff with them.

So what are the do and don'ts of sharing food with these big guys?

Yeah.

And yeah, I wish, sometimes I wish we'd see more side effects to that.

There are, there are people that feed their parrots

chicken, you know, and mm-hmm.

He used to, yeah, yeah.

Chicken, beef, you know, and you're like, I don't, I don't know if that's

appropriate at all, but I, I guess I've never really seen much of a side effect.

But don't, don't do that.

Just, you never know you're gonna have some gi side effects or something.

It's, it's just not good, you know.

Um, and birds like bread a lot, I think.

Uh, we try to avoid that too.

Uh, it just, it's just not, there's no calories in it, there's nothing in it.

They just fill up on it and then they, they don't get any nutrition.

So with kind of, uh, people, food, you know, again, trying to stay with

fresh veggies, fresh fruits, um, fresh food like that is, is fine.

Do you wanna share like, some berries or some grapes or wherever?

That would be perfectly fine.

A lot of birds do tend to like that.

Um, But just avoid the same things you'd want to avoid.

I mean, don't feed it Taco Bell or something like

that's, the bird will eat it.

The bird will totally eat it.

They, they have no problem with that, but it's not good for 'em.

They're gonna have problems.

Uh, primarily gi.

Primarily gi.

And when we say gi, we don't just mean intestines and stomach,

we also mean their crops.

So they have this pouch in their neck that holds food as well, called the crop.

If it gets full of things, you can actually feel it.

Um, some people will, will not realize that.

They'll feel it one day and think there's a mass under their bird's neck.

It's not a mass, it's normal.

Um, but you can have stasis, you can have a slowdown with that.

So, um, you know you're gonna have, you're gonna have problems,

um, with that crop as well.

Uh, birds also like to regurgitate their food sometimes, so it's

a little different than vomit.

So when we don't think of the classic consensus vomit,

but they will regurgitate it.

And if they're getting a bunch of food that they shouldn't have,

they may regurgitate that more.

And that's not something you really wanna clean up a lot.

Um, nor is it really comfortable for the bird to do that, you know, on a

daily basis that it's not painful, but just it's not a comfortable

thing to go through all the

time.

I think one other thing that is common is commonly seen in birds,

there's gonna be feather picking.

So what are gonna be the, the problems that can cause a, a bird to do that?

The, the problem with the smarter animals is that,

They need more things to do.

And we see that with dogs.

We see that with, with, well any animal really.

But the big birds, the big parrots especially, they are known to

being extremely intelligent.

They're known to really latching onto their owners.

They'll pick someone in the family and they usually say to themselves,

this is my spouse, this is my best friend, and we're together forever.

You know?

Um, and if that person, let's say, changes jobs, let's say they, you

know that there's a divorce in the family and someone moves out,

let's say that person were to die.

I mean, there's any, any any reason that you can think of that

that person no longer is spending as much time with that bird.

That bird is now.

Stressed that bird is now not experiencing its normal, um, behavioral

health that we've wanted to do.

And when you get stressed, just like with people, you think of people who you know,

kind of self hurt themselves or do things like that, birds will do the same thing.

And that that shows up as feather plucking.

So they'll take their big strong beak and they'll start plucking out their feathers

and it usually starts on the belly.

Um, but unfortunately we can see this extend throughout the body.

Um, Oftentimes you think of, you know, birds losing feathers to mites

or some sort of disease or something.

But by far what we usually see is just destructive behavior.

Um, it can be a really convoluted situation where you don't

have an obvious reason why.

It could be something simple.

You know, the bird loved the college, um, son that just went back to

college and now all of a sudden he can't take the bird to, to school.

But the bird is now left in this house with the parents.

And even the parents, they love the bird.

They wanna spend as much time as possible.

They're, they're talking to it every day.

They're giving it treats.

That bird still might sit there and say, no, this isn't good enough.

I don't, I'm not happy, and decide to, to feather, pluck.

Um, and there's a variety of things that we do for this, um, physical

inhibition, whether that be a coat or a an e collar situation.

There are some you can get specially made, um, for individual birds.

Sometimes we'll try some behavior drugs.

You think of your Prozac and, you know, a xanaxes and such.

Those don't work a ton.

But we, we have tried them before.

Um, you know, and, and a variety of other things.

Honestly, uh, the, the key thing I think a lot of vets use now is, um,

a dere and implant, um, which is just a, kinda like a microchip implant

that slowly releases into the body of the block hormones that seems to

help the most, um, for these guys.

But it's really variable on how long it lasts.

It may last a year, it may last a few months.

It kind of depends on the bird, but, but, you know, we

have some strategies for that.

But if we can try and find good behavioral health, make sure that the bird is,

you know, attended to and hopefully has a couple people in the household

that it likes, maybe it likes watching TV or listening to music or something

that kind of keep its mind busy all day long, that, that's really gonna help try

and prevent this as best as possible.

I.

So if somebody has a burden and wants to bring another burden

to the home, how easy is that?

What kind of things should they do?

And are there some birds that don't get along with each other?

Yeah, there definitely are birds that don't get along

with each other, and they're definitely ones that go along fine.

Um, I've seen people, you know, they'll get the, a bird of

the same, you know, species.

They'll both get two eclectic parrots or two cockatoos or cockles and goes fine.

I've also seen people get mixed birds, so it really depends

on, on what their goals are.

Yeah, if you always be careful, you get a big parrot with a small bird, that big

parrot can do a lot of damage to that small one, and it may not mean to, um,

but they'll, they'll bite their feet or, or bite their wings with with their peak,

and that can definitely cause some damage.

Um, generally speaking because, uh, Birds have, you know, bigger cages and they

are a little more vocal or, you know, communicative than, than other animals.

We can get two separate cages.

We can make sure that maybe in the same room they can see each other,

they can somewhat interact, but they're not physically together.

And, uh, we'll usually do that for about a month as a quarantine and then slowly,

you know, maybe get 'em out together at the same time and see what happens.

Now you have to be comfortable with your birds.

I mean, if all of a sudden one bird dive bombs, another one, you

have to have a plan of, okay, how are we gonna separate these two?

Do we have a towel?

Do we have some way to break them up real quick and hopefully not get bit ourselves?

Um, you know, but, but you can definitely mix and match birds a little bit.

Um, I would say like cockatiels are very easy usually to get along with.

They usually are perfectly fine.

You get enough space, they're fine to hang out together.

Um, you starting to, the bigger ones, the African grays, the cockatoos, uh,

they can, they can mix and match a bit.

You just have to kind of watch and see what their personality is.

Um, sometimes they do great and sometimes they don't.

Just really depends.

And they'll let you know.

They'll, they, birds are very talkative.

They'll scream, they'll talk, they'll, they'll let you know.

If they're not happy, they may curse at you if you're not careful.

So they, they'll, they'll let you know.

Yeah.

And I'm glad that you brought up as far as having a towel or something

like that, because I have seen the bites that these guys can give and Yeah.

You ha And sometimes you don't have time to get out of their way, like they are

so fast and they can just break your finger if they want, if they want to.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

So, so just being, being very careful with handling birds and like, uh, I, I

had an African gray at one point, and he would call you to come and pet him and

he would lower his head and want you to pet him, and he would kind of look at

you and then you started petting him.

And if you turn your head away, he would immediately turn

around and try to grab you.

Oh yeah.

So he was pretty sneaky about it.

So these are very, very smart, I would say.

If a situation breaks out and you're in emergency and you're like, oh gosh,

the birds are doing whatever and I need to do something, turn the lights off.

They have very poor night vision, so that's always gonna help.

Obviously you can't see as well either, but you're gonna see better than they can.

Um, and then a good towel just to block their vision just to, to separate

them is always, those two things will go a long way in, uh, protecting,

protecting yourself with, with big birds.

Yeah.

So let's talk about something that I personally do not like spiders.

Sure.

So, uh, one of my technicians loves spiders and she has a lot of different

types of spiders and, uh, I have learned from her that the different

types of spiders have different needs.

Um, so what are gonna be important things?

Cuz one of the, one of the concerns that she gave me is that whenever she

gets a spider, whoever gives a spider to her, gives her no information.

Right.

So it's kind of like, here's your spider, good luck with it.

Mm-hmm.

And she is somebody that's educated.

But a lot of people will get these things, especially like, first things

that comes to mind is torrential list.

Mm-hmm.

I go to some of these pet stores that sell torrential list and somebody will

just put in a box and take it home.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, and not know anything about them.

So what are the kind of things that you need to know if you are going to

have bring a spider into your home?

Yeah.

So if you're gonna get tarantula, I mean the first thing to really look

up is what type of tarantula it is.

And is this something that is, I'll say social versus antisocial.

So is this a tarantula that is going to.

Want to hang out with you, or is this an animal you're just gonna keep,

you know, in an aquarium on a desk somewhere or somewhere, you know,

wherever, uh, I mean, you're just gonna watch it from a distance essentially.

Um, because there are different, different ULAs that, that you're gonna

respond well or not to being handled.

Um, and you know, believe it or not, they, they do get stressed.

They do show signs of stress.

Um, they'll oftentimes lose the hair on their abdomen.

So if you see a spider and you're looking at a picture online and comparing it

to the one that's in front of you, and the one in front of you looks naked,

or it looks like it's missing some hair, that animal's probably actually

stressed, whether it be diseased or just it's been handled too much.

Uh, it may not be the healthiest spider actually.

So maybe inquiring into that and saying, Hey, what, what's going on here?

Why is this going on?

Um, I, I think depending on what spider dealing, if you start getting

into the realm of, we may not know all the information either.

This may be something that you're gonna have to really.

Dig into and research yourself a little bit and say, okay, how many of these

things have been kept in captivity?

For instance, you may get one that is not very good at captivity.

You may get some that are very good.

Um, obviously some of the t tarantulas are, are well

known for being captive pets.

Um, but other times they're not.

And it's like, well, this is gonna be a harder animal to keep

alive, honestly, in captivity.

So, you know, I guess, I guess the biggest thing is, yeah, don't impulse

buy these because, cuz you're, I mean, ideally no one's impulse buying a,

a giant tarantula that, that's got more stigma to it than the snake.

Um, but, uh, but definitely don't impulse buy these because you're gonna have a

hard time getting out of that situation.

Honestly.

It's not like you can take it to a shelter and say, Hey,

I'm, I don't want this anymore.

I mean, there may be some that take it, but it's, it's

gonna be few and far between.

Same with people, you know, Hey, can someone adopt my, my dog that I'm moving?

I can't take anymore.

Okay.

There are people out there looking for dogs all the time.

There are not as many people looking for tarantulas all the time.

So just once you buy one of these things, you're kind of stuck with it.

Just make sure you know a little bit of what you're getting into.

Um, and the people selling it?

Yeah.

They may just be a broker that has no idea.

They may just sit there and say, I know the name of it.

Hopefully, um, it's coming in a little container.

So, you know, ideally when you buy some animals, you're gonna come and

they're gonna have a, a pre-setup.

They're gonna have something that's gonna get you started already.

And tarantulas oftentimes are just sold in little containers, so they're not,

they're not really gonna have a setup.

You're gonna have to buy the whole setup as well.

Yeah.

So speaking of small containers, uh, fish.

Um, one of my pet peeves is kinda like the beta fish and such that, you know,

they have in the pet stores and they're in this tiny little, uh, environment.

So what are going to be the, the things that people need to think about

before they start getting an aquarium?

Um, you know, like as far as, um, is, is the number of fish important,

the type of fish important, the amount of the food, the, the water.

What are the kind of things that are important for fish?

Yeah, and I think, you know, obviously water

quality is the biggest thing.

So making sure that the water's clean and, you know, safe from

like, nitrates, pneumonia.

And usually you can go to the PetSmart or pet stores and they'll sell you

water testing supplies pretty cheaply that you can do and, and have a, a

parameter of what you're looking for.

Um, if you're really adventurous for aquariums, are you going

saltwater or freshwater?

You know, that'd be the the big question to start with.

Um, and then, and then going from there, um, some fish get along great with others.

You know, you think of your classic, uh, goldfish with some of those suckers on.

On aquariums, those guys get along fine.

Um, other fish don't.

Uh, I always remember when I was in grade school, um, my science teacher had an

Oscar, um, which looks like a mini piran.

If no one's ever ever seen one before and they really are a mini paranas,

they'll, they'll eat other fish.

And I don't think she really researched that beforehand because

then she, there was an Oscar and our other fish in the tank.

And, um, I mean, if, if you're fine, you know, with the Oscar

eating fresh fish, then I guess, I guess that's what you're going for.

Then it works out fine.

But, but those fish slow dwindled because the Oscar is eating it and it got bigger

and bigger and we'll see that sometimes we can see Oscar's, you know, eat each other

sometimes if we've got like a bigger one or more aggressive one and a smaller one.

So just being aware of, you know, how big of a tank you have, um, and what,

what fish you're getting in there, are they gonna eat each other or not?

Is, is really kind of the, the key starting point with that.

Um, a lot of fish medicine is.

Is done online, it's done over the counter so to speak.

You can get, you know, some antibiotics and some anti pesticides and such.

And, you know, people hear of like common diseases like ick or something.

You know, there's plenty of ick treatments out there.

You don't need to really, really go for a vet for that, and I don't

really, really see that much.

Um, but if you start getting into the more expensive fish like coy, um, the

coy can cost thousands of dollars.

And there are people that have really big COI ponds.

You know, just making sure you have a, an idea of what your problem's gonna be.

Um, I've seen lightning strikes on coy, for instance.

You know, so if you've got an outdoor pond, um, what is your plan?

Do you, you know, you watching that, making sure that

you're not overcrowding it?

If you've got a small pond, don't put a hundred fish in there cuz that's

gonna get dirty really, really quick.

And you're gonna have some, some fish that die off from that as well.

Um, there are actually vets that see fish.

Um, I actually have a friend who's a classmate of mine who only sees fish.

He does aquaculture, travels the world, and that's all he does.

So, I mean, if you're listening and you're like, I really love Phish

and I'd love to do that as, as a veterinarian, you actually can do that.

Um, one of my former students is at Michigan State, actually.

Um, and she's doing aquaculture.

So, uh, it's a, it's a budding field and, uh, we're just starting

to really expand our knowledge base on, on medicine that we can provide.

Um, but starting off by just knowing, hey, what size are we dealing with?

And are these fish gonna eat each other?

I think that's the basic first steps that you wanna do, wanna talk about.

Yeah.

Yeah, we don't think a lot about fish needing, you know, a veterinarian,

but I, I have seen, especially like on social media and stuff, like fish having

surgery and, and that kind of stuff.

So it's.

Yeah, we can definitely do surgery on fish.

We can definitely do a, a decent amount with them.

They do recover quite well.

Um, yeah, there's, there's a lot you can actually do with fish.

It's just, you just don't realize it.

My wife actually had a goldfish that lived well over 20 years.

People don't realize that goldfish can live a long time.

So people get 'em at, you know, state fair is not, well, we'll have this over

the summer or something, and then 10 years later it's doing perfectly fine.

You're like, man, what, what's going on here?

No, that can happen easily.

Yeah.

So let's talk about the other exotics.

So, you know, with small mammals, that's something that I'm a little more familiar

because I will do surgeries, , like on rabbits, rats, , sugar gliders.

Uh, but that's kind of the extent of, of what I do.

Just spell nere and then some minor issues.

So with, with some of these little guys, what are going to be the most

common problems that, that you see?

So little guys, you know, we think of like mice and hamsters

and rats and such wounds, infections, upper respiratory infections.

Um, honestly, we see a decent number of, uh, cancerous masses on them too.

Um, rat masses being by far the most common thing I see.

And I, I love rats.

I've known rats for many, many years.

Um, but they get mammary tumors extremely common.

Um, and, uh, you know, whether you pursue surgery, I mean, you know, that

that's, that's up to the, the vet and the client patient relationship essentially.

There's a lot of things to discuss with that.

But, um, you know, masses and, and deciding when to take

those off, how big they are.

And making sure that, that that animal can, can live through that surgery and

making sure it's right for the animal.

Because if you've got a, a three-year-old rat, I mean, that's an old age for a rat.

You know, we're not gonna just dive into surgery because it's gonna be

very difficult to monitor this animal.

We may not be able to get a catheter in very easily, like we think like a dog or

cat may be able to give fluids easily.

But we can do, we can do a good amount of things.

Actually.

I think people are surprised by how much we can do sometimes with these small guys.

Um, I have taken off masses that have been up 50% of the body size

of, um, gerbils and hamsters before.

So these animals come in, they've got an accesss or a mass that's the, the

size they are, and I can take that off, um, you know, fairly safely actually.

And they can, they can live a good quality of life for a decent amount

of time for that species, you know, so, um, but yeah, it, it's, uh,

those would be those common things.

Yeah.

What are some of the non-traditional animals?

I know that you will treat like skunks and foxes and that kind of stuff.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, one of the biggest concerns that, that I get to is, uh, you know, are these

animals allowed to be legally owned?

Yes.

So, can you, can you explain, you know, what can and cannot be treated?

Yeah.

Well, so I'll start by saying, and, and this is for any veterinarians

or veterinary staff, it is legal in Ohio, um, to treat any animal,

um, for up to 48 hours if you need, like, house by something without

any documentation whatsoever.

It can be wildlife, it can be anything.

So you get someone that brings in some random animal and they get, you know,

doesn't matter if it's wild or a pet or something, and it's in critical

state and you wanna, you know, try and do whatever you need to do to save it.

You are welcome to do that.

You are not gonna be legally held, uh, liable for the state by doing

something you shouldn't do at all.

Um, now owning one of those animals is a, is a whole different story.

So, generally speaking, you're gonna get a permit for native wildlife or what

we'll call, , controlled animals, I guess would be the, the proper word for that.

So native wildlife, you think, like raccoon raccoon's a a classic example.

Everyone's seen raccoons still in Ohio.

They're all over the place.

You can't just go out and, oh, there's a baby raccoon.

Eating on my deck, I'm going to grab it, throw in a carrier, take it inside.

Um, first off, that'd be a horrible idea to do.

The raccoons are a lot, a lot of work.

Um, so don't, don't just do that, but, but you need an actual permit and there

are actually people that breed and sell raccoons that you can then get

the permits for to keep these as pets.

So usually when I talk about non-traditional species like that, these

are people that, Hey, I love raccoons, I love skunks, I love whatever this is.

I have gone through a breeder and I have bought this animal and there is

documentation saying I've bought it and it's not some, some wild animal.

Um, you can get permits for wild animals too.

It's just a little more convoluted case.

It just kind of depends on, on what animal you're talking about.

Um, and then you have to renew that permit, usually yearly.

It's usually once a year, uh, with, with the state.

And then I usually, as a vet, I'll ask for that permit just to make sure, hey,

everything's on the up and up and we're, we're doing legally what we should do.

Um, And that, that changes quite a bit.

There are exotic animal laws in Ohio in regards to, you

know, some of these things.

For instance, snakes can only be so long.

They can't be more than 13 feet long, otherwise you run into trouble with 'em.

Um, you may run into trouble with some of the more aggressive animals.

So really just do your research.

And if you're outside the state of Ohio, then really it varies state by state.

There's no standard rule for this.

So, you know, the, the classic example I use is, is honestly, you know, ferrets,

ferrets are illegal in California.

Um, people may not realize that, but they're perfectly

legal in many, many states.

Um, prairie dogs are legal in a number of states, but they're legal in Ohio.

So I'll see prairie dogs.

Uh, it just really depends on what state you're in.

And if you go to, if you're moving to a different state, you may wanna

look into what the laws are for that, just so you're not getting in trouble.

Um, is there anyone really watching you and gonna turn you in?

Probably not, but just maybe difficult then to find of vet or to

find, uh, someone to help you if all of a sudden that animal's illegal

to own that, that may be harder.

Yeah, I think that that's one of the, one of the issues that also some

people get into is that they will take in an animal like a, a wild animal

and they raise it and they get it used to people and then they realize

that they cannot have it anymore.

Yeah.

And then they want to take it to wildlife.

And wildlife hands are tied because now this animal is used to humans

and they don't understand that they cannot just be relieved and they're,

it's limited what you can do for them.

So sometimes in trying to help them, we un help 'em.

Right.

Think, think about that raccoon and think if you, you know, if you're rescuing a

raccoon, odds are you love a raccoon.

You're like, I love these animals and I love raccoons.

I think they're absolutely amazing animals.

They're, they're, they're great mischievous, you know, I love

watching them out in the wild.

But think now, if you rescue a raccoon and it gets used to you, and it's used

to people and you say, you know what?

I'm gonna go dump it in a park.

You know, it, it's, it's a year old now.

I've rescued it, and it's, it's gonna live on its own.

Okay?

So you take it to a park.

Now, this raccoon has lived with you.

Its whole life.

And it looks at you and says, wow.

I, I like people.

People are very nice.

And now we're in a park and a family walks up and they're having a picnic

or something, and the racking goes, you know, I'm gonna go have some

food with this family, because that's what I'm used to doing.

What is that family gonna think?

If a raccoon and broad daylight is approaching them for food,

they're going to freak out.

They're gonna think this thing has rabies.

It's coming to to attack them or be aggressive.

They're gonna call the cops.

It is going to be a huge scene.

You are setting that raccoon up for failure.

You may not seem like it when you first do it.

You may seem, oh, this is so innocent.

I'm doing the right thing.

But down the line, that raccoon is going to suffer because of

unfortunately your love, you know?

And so you have to have to practice that tough love a bit.

You have to realize, hey, this is a wild animal.

We want it to stay wild as, as best as we can.

Are there raccoons and various other animals that become

education animals, like at the Ohio Wildlife Center or other places?

Yes, absolutely.

But that should be done by a licensed wildlife rehab or someone

who knows what they're doing.

You know, we should give, we should make every attempt to get these

guys back into the wild and not interfere as much as possible.

Uh, and the more we interfere, the, the more we really create

problems for them down the line.

You know?

And even if you don't think it's a problem, you know, realize that many,

many people are not fine with raccoons.

Not fine with skunks, not fine with foxes, and, you know, all

these other animals, they're gonna have problems with them, you know?

Well, I think that we have given a great overview to people, uh, about

just the importance of learning about the needs of these animals, right?

Like we have a dog or a cat.

These animals are not dogs and cats.

They have specific needs then.

And even the same thing.

I mean, when we're getting a dog or a cat, we need to learn about what

they need, what they don't need.

Like cats are, cats are carnivores.

They cannot be on a vegetarian diet.

Those are things that we need to learn the same thing with, with these other exotics.

So you are in Grove City, Ohio, so if people want to, uh, get ahold

of you guys, Um, how do they go

about that?

Yeah, so you can go on our website, all critters vet.com, um, and I'm on there.

We've got our email on there, info all critters vet.com or

info all critters vet.com.

Um, we have our phone number and a text message, uh, line as well.

You can text or call and schedule an appointment if you had a pet

that you wanted seen or anything.

Um, I, I would recommend if you're interested in one of these animals that

we talked about, whether it be a snake, whether it be a raccoon, whatever.

Um, if you're not local to me, uh, find a vet in your area that, uh, even

if they don't know a hundred percent what's going on, you know, I, I see,

uh, Hundreds of species of animals.

I am not gonna sit here and say, I know everything about every one of

them, but I'm willing to at least work with you to figure out what is

best for whatever species you have.

So find a vet that's willing to help you out too.

And, you know, come to a plan of, Hey, what vaccines we need, what

VCO or blood testing, or can you provide this if we need to get

this animal spayed or neutered?

Are you comfortable with that?

Is there some sort of legal document you need to sign?

Are you comfortable with that?

You know, um, fine of that.

Just, just reach out.

Um, there, there are more than what we think.

It's just not as prevalent.

And then, you know, again, if you have an emergency situation that

pops up, have an emergency plan.

Who are you taking this to?

If it's a Sunday night at midnight and something happens and you need scene,

do you have a plan for that as well?

Um, but you can reach all my information.

I'm happy to try and connect you to people if I'm not available.

If it's, if you know you're outta state or out of somewhere else

in Ohio, I can try and tell you, here's some people that I recommend.

Um, We all kind of know each other in the exotic animal field.

So we all, we all know, hey, this person, this person, this person, and

we are happy to recommend you the, to someone who's willing to help.

Yeah.

Excellent.

So, Dr.

Sam Valerius at All Critters Veterinary Hospital.

Thank you so much for, um, talking to us and thank you for being there.

And to all our listeners, thanks for listening and thanks for caring.

Thanks for having me on.