Hi there and a very warm welcome to Season 5 Episode 56 of People Soup – it’s Ross McIntosh here. 

P Soupers - it's the third part of our mini series - my new collaboration with Dr Richard MacKinnon from WorkLifePsych - where we delve into all things related to psychological flexibility and ACT. We're aiming to show you how relevant it is - not only to your work life, but your whole life. Listen on to part 3A of the mini series where we introduce and begin to explore the process of cognitive defusion. We talk about how our unhelpful thoughts can be grabby, sticky and loud, we consider how they impact on our behaviour and reflect on the liberating phrase - "A thought is just a thought".

People Soup is an award winning podcast where we share evidence based behavioural science, in a way that’s practical, accessible and fun. We're all about sharing the ingredients for a better work life from behavioural science and beyond.

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FOR ROSS - EPISODE 3 PART 1 RICHARD COLLAB DEFUSION

[00:00:06]

[00:00:29] And a focus on that. means that we don't end up doing what many people think we do, which might be standing on a chair and role playing, giving a presentation or adopting some kind of confident body language. But instead we're saying, well, that's just a thought about you. Doesn't mean it's true. Doesn't mean you have to listen to it.

[00:01:00] Ross: Peace you buzz, it's the third part of our mini series, things related to Psychological Flexibility and Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, or ACT. We're aiming to show you how relevant it is, not only to your work life, but to your whole life. Listen on to part 3A of the mini series where we introduce and begin to explore the process of cognitive diffusion.

[00:02:09] Our mission is to unlock workplace potential with expert perspectives from contextual behavioral science.

[00:02:30] With your help, we're reaching more people with stuff that could help them in their lives, both in and outside of work. For now, get a brew on and have a listen to part 3A of my collaboration with Dr. Richard McKinnon.

[00:02:51] Ross: We're gonna be taking a pause and thinking about our thoughts. Particularly how we can develop a new relationship with our thoughts. And if that sounds a bit woo woo, don't worry because we're gonna unpick that. When we talk about relationship with thoughts it might sound a bit unusual, but we're going to be considering the nature of our thoughts, just how many we experience every day for a start.

[00:03:31] Richard: And last time we talked about the power of noticing and being present in the moment. And a point that comes up all the time is, that's all very well, but what if I don't like what I notice? And so today is all about this skill of learning how you can be Not like the stuff your mind gives you and continue at the same time.

[00:04:09] Ross: Yeah, I love the language you use about sticky and grabby and tangled, because that's how it can feel as a human. We can get really immersed in those thoughts and treat them as if they're like 100 percent true or 100 percent worthy of our full attention.

[00:04:28] Richard: And we talked about, daydreaming last time and how that's lovely. It's really nice to get lost in, you know, nice thoughts, but we can also get tangled up in thoughts about stuff that either has happened in the past or hasn't happened yet. And we can all identify with that feeling that we're struggling with that to the extent that it's taking us away from the here and now that we're really living in an internal mental life.

[00:05:20] Controlling our thoughts

[00:05:40] Our minds just don't work that way. So fundamental, this whole skill set is learning how to maybe step away from those automatic responses, those learned responses to the thoughts we don't like, and try something kind of radically different, which is to end the struggle with them.

[00:06:23] And, So the mechanic takes out the old spark plugs and puts in new ones. the engine doesn't remember the old spark plugs and that, that memory of them. But it's not the same thing that happens in our minds. We've got the memory of past, uh, thoughts and those memories of when things didn't go well last time.

[00:07:04] Richard: Cheer up, calm down.

[00:07:10] Uh, uh, they're not effective strategies for us.

[00:07:15] Richard: And you know, the, the way that it amazes me that we have this rich inner life and yet we don't really get taught the skills of how to navigate it. You know, we don't have conversations about, just because you've imagined that, it doesn't make you a bad person. Just because you have that memory, it doesn't mean you have to sit with it and let it play out for the next 15 minutes.

[00:08:06] So a lot of what we're taught, or a lot of what is expected of us, really, flies in the face of our, our wellbeing and our, our capacity to navigate this stuff that our own mind is giving us. There's a, there's a real irony in that.

[00:08:21] Ross: You're absolutely right. I think these skills that I certainly wasn't taught in my education or my further training and degrees, and I don't know about you Richard, but sometimes when I share this idea that we can change the relationship with our thoughts, and particularly perhaps using a metaphor, people will say to me, Oh, I thought it was just me.

[00:08:59] Dragged down by our own thoughts

[00:09:26] What potential could we unleash in everyone if everyone understood that It's just a thought. It's not a restriction. It's not an ultimatum. It's not a command. It's just another piece of mental stuff. Flotsam. Floating through my awareness.

[00:09:57] Richard: This is one of those words that [00:10:00] it's useful to explain what it is because it doesn't technically exist in, in English in the way that we're using it. You know, people don't go around talking about de fusion. And in fact, if you start to write this, your computer will probably automatically correct it to delusion, um, which is again, a not very commonly used word, but what we're talking about here.

[00:10:48] Do I need to? Must that always be that way? And, and, and you're not even necessarily deal with each of these thoughts, but instead I use a lot of physical metaphors to sort of keep your hands by your sides. Keep your hands out of the machinery. Don't try and do anything with them because they're going to move along.

[00:11:27] And we're keeping our hands away and just letting it go on its merry way. That is so different to control attempts, removal attempts, replacement attempts. And Probably before we go any further, it's worth just broadening this out a little bit to make the point that in ACT terms, Acceptance and Commitment Theory terms, we can use the word thinking to describe all that mental content, rather than getting super specific about the difference between all these things.

[00:12:19] And that distinction is a really important one to make. But does that make sense? And if we view it as a skill, why would we want to learn it in the first place?

[00:12:51] That's that unhelpful stuff. That's that thinking, that thoughts that my mind generates. And quite often we're like this. And what I've done there, for those listening on audio, is I've clasped my hands tightly together. And they're like glued together. And if I try and struggle to get them apart, now, that bond actually gets stronger.

[00:13:40] And for me that kind of I dunno if how that's landed, but for me, that kind of represents why we would want to do this.

[00:14:00] Ross: Hmm

[00:14:07] We can buy into them as truths when they don't really deserve that. And we're fusing with them. They're taking, maybe too much of our attention, too much of our energy, shall we say. And diffusion is that, being still having them. This is a really important point. We still have the thoughts. We're not getting rid of them.

[00:14:46] You just wouldn't be looking through them. And therefore the world would look quite different. once you realize you can have thoughts and not need to do anything with them, why it really frees up an awful lot of attention and energy and capacity, because there's no more struggle. There's no more need to solve these thoughts or process them or work at changing them into something more pleasant or something nicer.

[00:15:15] Ross: hmm.

[00:15:55] Richard: So these thoughts often present themselves with a sense of urgency [00:16:00] or fact, or like I said earlier, an ultimatum. And I think we can all identify with things that we don't want to experience mentally, like thoughts about ourselves and our abilities, or how likable we are, or how successful we are, or thoughts about the future.

[00:16:38] Given this content by our minds

[00:17:07] It's giving me mental content. It's giving me messages What I do with them is up to me And sometimes I might just take them and put them over here You And crack on with what I was doing anyway. So if we're able to start and listeners and viewers, this is something you can start with this. Where is my mind and what is it giving me rather than I am everything I experience mentally?

[00:17:53] Ross: And yeah, it gives us that choice and it frees us up to appreciate and observe different perspectives [00:18:00] on maybe something we've been struggling with and been so deeply ingrained in the way we think that we can't see the wood for the trees.

[00:18:31] And a focus on that. means that we don't end up doing what many people think we do, which might be standing on a chair and role playing, giving a presentation or adopting some kind of confident body language. But instead we're saying, well, that's just a thought about you. Doesn't mean it's true. Doesn't mean you have to listen to it.

[00:19:12] So no, what would I do? And then of course, confidence will come after doing it. But seeing the thoughts about myself that hold me back, that criticize me, or that are full of fear of failure. I can, instead of, I need to deal with the fear of failure to see, well, it's just a thought and actually if I do nothing to it, it's going to move along.

[00:20:13] So I don't need to do anything with them That is one of the things that brings me the most satisfaction as a practitioner. so that's why I kind of, I'm, I'm passionate about this because whether it's ruminating over the past, being fearful over the future, criticizing myself, being judgmental about other people.

[00:20:44] Ross: hearing you describe this, it kind of blows my mind all over again, just to hear someone else say it. And I know this, and I practice these skills, but it's just such an important message. a thought is just a thought.

[00:21:29] Is it something happening in the room? Is it something on the screen? Or is it something up here that is just a thought? And do I need to give it the attention it's asking for? But we do want to give you more to work with. But if that's all you heard, that's a really, really good start.

[00:22:18] That's it, folks. Part 3A, The Introduction to Cognitive Fusion, in the bag. Next week, we continue with a deeper dive into cognitive diffusion. And surprisingly enough, that will be called Part 3B. A hearty thanks to Richard. We're having great fun with this collaboration.

[00:22:49] you enjoyed this episode of the podcast, we'd love you to do three things.

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[00:23:42] Richard: Fantastic. I'm really enjoying these recordings with you. And if it's not obvious, I'm also learning a lot in how we're talking this through. It really, really brings it to life. So thank you very much.