A decade ago, rosé was viewed mainly as a seasonal wine, with spring releases sold out by September. However, noted St. Supéry Estate Vineyards & Winery CEO Emma Swain in a recent episode of the St. Supéry Sips podcast, that is no longer the case.

“It certainly doesn't seem to be that way today,” she said. “Rosé is taking a much greater role throughout the year.”

Joining Swain on this rosé-themed podcast episode were Wendy Stanford, director of category management for imported wines at Wine.com, and Nicole Haarklau, food and beverage director at Hotel Vin, an Autograph Collection property in Grapevine, Texas.

Hello everyone. I'm Emma Swain and welcome to the St. Supery Sips podcast on Rosé. It's that time of year where the heat is kicking in around the country and it's warming up and delicious rosé is a favorite among all of us here today. I'm very happy to have with me special guests Wendy Stanford, director of Category Management Imported Wine at Wine.com.

Welcome, Wendy. Great to have you with us.

Thank you so much for having me.

And Nicole Haarklau, F&B director at Hotel Vin, an Autograph Collection property in Grapevine, Texas. Welcome, Nicole.

Thank you. Happy to be here.

Thank you so much. And we've been covering a lot of different topics on the podcast lately from Napa, Green Farming, sustainable fish, fish friendly farming and lots of wonderful topics like Sauvignon Blanc. And today is Napa Valley Rosé. And at Sainsbury we have two roses. One is our Napa State Rosé that we make from our state properties here in the Napa Valley.

And then we also bring in our sister property, Domaine de Il Rosé from Porquerolles which is also from Provence, and two very distinct and different styles of rosé that are just the tip of the iceberg for the differences in the categories that we get with rosé around the country. Excuse me. Sorry Ryan gave you an edit.

So one of the things that.

Over the years we've seen is rosé is just seasonal. And spring rosé is done by September. But it certainly doesn't seem to be that today rosé is taking a much greater role throughout the year on our wine list center, retail shops and at our dinner plate. So I'd like to just start a little bit talking about that seasonality.

And our last year's rosé is only getting better. Or is it the supply chain issues that could change the ideas that rosé or just seasonal rosé? Experts say most rosé should be consumed within a couple of years, yet many buyers only want rosé within the first six months, as if it's Beaujolais Nouveau. How does everyone overcome that, especially with these supply chain problems that we're faced with?

When did you want to answer that first?

Sure. So and why not come? We sell rosé year round. It's it's reached about 4% of our overall business. And that's been steady for several years. And, you know, our customers are buying rosé based on many factors. I think we'll be getting into sort of what styles and things a bit later. But I think in terms of, you know, buying it within the first six months of release, I don't find that to necessarily be true.

I do think that there is a preconceived notion that you are meant to drink it super fresh. But I think that our customers are buying rosé based on several factors. There's some brand loyalty, there are some style or color loyalty, but I think that they are perfectly happy to buy roses that are 1 to 2 years old, particularly if it's a brand they know and trust.

And also, you know, press really does a lot for, you know, selling, you know, allowing customers to try new brands or new wines that they may not have had the confidence to try courses, scores really come into play, too. And a lot of those reviews will say, you know, drink immediately, but sometimes I'll say drink within two years.

And so I think that there is a lot of flexibility there and our customers certainly buy it year round.

When do you do you see any difference in the style of rosé that's being bought year round from dry to sparkling to a little bit sweet or sweeter?

Well, our customers certainly are convinced, it seems, that it needs to be, you know, a sort of Provence style, so dry, pale, but there is some exploration there into other regions and other styles. But I think we've learned that it is hard to convince them to buy something like Tavel, which has a much darker color, because I think the perception there is that darker means sweeter.

And Tavel is certainly a dry wine and an incredible food pairing wine and things like that. But I think that it's going to take some continued education to get customers to understand that.

Oh, good point, Nicole. What are you seeing on premise as far as rosé, as a as a year round option?

Well, here at hotel, when we tried to incorporate rosé year round, but really, truth be told, it is a seasonal wine here on property where, you know, Memorial Day hits and, you know, maybe even a little earlier end of April and the rosé sales take off as they get into the warmer seasons. And I think it might just be a lifestyle thing here where people associate it with summer and the beach and pools and and that's an education piece, too, that we need to work on.

And that's where our job comes in. And we host wine dinners year round. And in the winter we're starting with rosé, and we're doing rosé events in November because we want people to continue to talk about rosé year round. But unfortunately, I think we're still have some work to do to get to the point where people are consuming it year round, at least on premise.

And if I were working at a resort in Miami Beach, perhaps things would be different because that would be more on brand for something like that. But right now we are still seeing it as a seasonal wine here.

And stylistically, is there a difference for you with the seasonality?

People here really choose Provence year round and again trying to educate. We have wines from California, France, Italy, all different types of rosé with different varietals. But the consumer here is still very drawn to Vermont style rosé.

Interesting. I was in London recently and as I was waiting for a wine shop to open, a gentleman came up as the wine shop to opened and returned to a case of rosé because it was the prior year vintage and I was quite surprised because it the wine looked fine and I was sort of surprised. Do you get any pushback, Nicole, on vintages?

I think as long as it's within the last two years, people don't have much to complain or be upset about. I think everyone is very happy with two years to present. But that's that's just here. I'm not sure. I don't know that I wish that there were roses that I'd be excited to open five years from now that have the ability to age and maybe we'll get there.

But I think right now, two years is the sweet spot.

Yeah. And the any other comments on that on the meeting.

Yeah. I mean I absolutely agree customers are okay with 1 to 2 years. But I think beyond that, there's just not much understanding that, you know, there are certain regions like Bendel where the wines are made predominantly Bhadra that, you know, can age a bit more. But again, I think it's it's a continued education and hopefully, you know, it's not going to become too homogenized as the popularity of Provence style roses continue to grow.

You know, hopefully regions stick with their styles. And, you know, we as as retailers and on premise can try to educate.

Yeah, I think for a long time we were stuck with rosé having a bad reputation. And I think that just like what happened to Malo happened to Rosé in terms of people associating just as a pink wine. And there's the huge growth of, you know, Sutter homes and white Zinfandel. And I think that people might have gotten confused along the way as to what rosé really was or is.

And I think it's taken a little bit of time to educate the consumer as to what it is and and that it's not necessarily a sweet wine and that there can be complexity to it. And I think we're finally in a place now where people are understanding that.

Yeah, I think so as well. And I think that you were quite accurate that there's this was this perception that roses were all sweet and they're not. And having a dry rosé is a wonderful complement to so many different cuisines and, and just to enjoy prior to dinner too. Wendy, what are your thoughts on on booming rosé and the continuing continuation of it?

Yeah, exactly. Like I mentioned before, I think, you know, it is a continue to education and I think on premise has a has a great opportunity to explain that other styles can look sweet to maybe the untrained eye like something like table is actually quite dry and an incredible perk for food. And I think, you know, when it comes to rosé, I think it's a bit easier for some consumers.

There might be some intimidation when it comes to choosing a wine to bring to a dinner party or even at the table. They may not know much about regions or particular vintages that are good and particular regions and rosé can just be a nice middle ground for people. And I think, you know, for them to understand how well it pairs with so many different styles of food is really a great thing.

I find that, you know, Mexican food can be one of the hardest things to pair with wine. And I find so many roses are really a good option for that. And so I think that that's that's a great opportunity for consumers to, you know, order with confidence and not be so intimidated. And I think rosé fits that category nicely.

You know? Good. Good point. And your point on color is really good. You know, Saint Super are Saint Super Rosé is is quite dark and we leave it on the skins a little longer. And we think sort of think of it as our summer red wine because it's a little bit hardier. It's got some good structure and and tannins, but it's fresh and great acidity.

And so it's interesting that that color can also be perceived as a sweetness factor, which ours is not. And our rosé that we import, of course, is from Provence, from Portugal. And it is that typical classic Provence style color and quite dry. So it's interesting. What are you seeing, Nicole, with color and perception from your customers is.

I'm really not finding that people are buying based on color as much as they are on varietal type and appellation. So they don't typically see the wine before ordering it or purchasing it. So we find that mostly it's location based for us.

Okay. And do you get a lot of questions about level of sweetness prior to ordering or.

Yeah, especially with the rosé champagne, we get a lot of questions about that, but typically the questions asked, is it sweet? And everyone on our rosé list is dry. So it's a pretty easy, easy to navigate it from a server perspective. But that's definitely a question and an assumption that consumers are still making.

So you also brought up a good point about appellation and and Provence. Rosé is still leading the way with five of the top ten bestselling roses and seven of the top best selling roses are French. And Wendy, do you think it's for the wine style? Do you think it's just the quality of the wine or appellation recognition? Then what are your thoughts on appellation?

Well, I think it's it's kind of all of the above. I think there is a sort of lifestyle, aspirational feeling around rosé in terms of while it's being dropped year round. And it's not particularly not necessarily seasonal anymore, I think it does sort of invoke that Mediterranean feel. And so I think that draws people to to places like like France and Provence and and beyond.

I think that some brands have had incredible marketing. Some have had celebrity backings. And so I think it's kind of all of the above. It's it's really 65% of our volume comes out of France for rosé and 17% out of the US. But Spain, Italy, Portugal, those are sort of next in line. I think based on the number of different brands that we have sold.

Our customers are they want to explore. But I think that there's just that feeling of confidence when it comes to French rosé.

You know, I also see people drinking a little lighter style and a little lower alcohol. And we see that with Sauvignon Blanc being such a great placement in the market, you know, there's a lot of growth behind Sauvignon Blanc. And part of that, I think, is having a lighter style wine that's fresh and lively. But I also, you know, with the quantity coming out of France and typically being a little bit lower alcohol, any thoughts on those trends kind of overlapping?

Nicole, you want to yeah.

I, you know, I, I, I think that. Mm. Sorry.

Okay.

Um, I think that we're seeing that begin now, but I don't think that here consumer might not be as educated in terms of wine in low A-B and lighter style. I think that we're seeing a huge uptick in an Aperol spritz, for example, right now and those zero proof cocktail lists in the area. But I think that health and wellness has become a priority to all, more recently than ever.

And and it's we're definitely noticing that that's a priority. But I haven't seen that in terms of wine and what's being ordered right now.

Yeah, I think we have a a live chat function on our website and our our recommendations songs. I think that they do get questions from time to time about AB but I would agree that it's a, it's a, it's a slightly less important, but it is it is definitely growing a growing trend looking for those sort of better for you wines and that means maybe less sugar and lower alcohol.

But again, I think that that's, you know, a small percentage of customers right now, but growing.

So when do you know so much of your online marketing is is showing the the wine, the packaging, the the bottle and telling the story is wine.com does so very well for the wineries online and having that online assistance. Do you feel that packaging plays as important a role as it does in a typical grocery store or wine shop store where perhaps you don't have access to all the other data?

Absolutely. I think packaging plays a role, you know, on our virtual shelf as well as, you know, brick and mortar retail shelf. You know, and I think that I mentioned this before, it may not be the coolest thing in the wine trade to talk about, but there is some influence that these some of these celebrity wines have had.

And these are quality wines. For example, Hampton Water from that's Jesse Bon Jovi's son's brand is a beautiful wine. It's made by Chopper Trent. And it has it is absolutely a lifestyle packaging and story. So, you know, they do talk about our patron in the story, but really it's more about the Hamptons and having, you know, rosé and it's that whole lifestyle thing.

So and I think the packaging absolutely relays that story. I think that there are some slightly more serious packaging, you know, that also draws maybe a higher end consumer. You know, interestingly, you know, typically our customers are little more than a third millennials, but when it comes to rosé, we skew much higher with the Gen X crew. And I think that, you know, so, you know, the celebrity thing is, you know, I'm not really sure how that plays with the Gen X, but I think that, you know, obviously the millennials are the biggest growing category and I think that it's definitely attracting younger consumers.

And so, yes, I think that packaging comes into play and and but more importantly, the story and we are, like you said, able to tell the story behind the wine, behind the behind the winemaker. You know, what is what's what really, you know, is this this is a real wine from a real place and has a real story and real people behind it.

And I think that's important. Yeah, I think that that is very important. And I think so so often over the past 20 years, we've had a lot of wines kind of come and go that aren't real, that don't are wines without parents, wines without place. And and I think that the millennial generation and the Gen-X generation are much more demanding today of that.

You know, where did it come from? How was it grown and who were the people behind it? That becomes important to them? And then, you know, the future of rosé. What you know, what are we seeing in the future as far as brand loyalty, growth, varietals, appellations? Nicole, any any thoughts on that?

Yeah, I think that France is going to continue to go strong for quite some time. I think that we're nearing a peak and it's definitely still going strong, though. So I don't really see that dying down. But I also think with the increasing costs of importing and supply chain issues that unfortunately don't seem to be going away any time in the future either, we'll see a lot more wine consumers drinking from, you know, California and the United States because it's going to be difficult as time goes on to continue to get the wines that people love and want to drink so much.

So I think that soon they'll start to be a little bit of a consumer switch, not necessarily because they want to, but because some people will get out priced on the wines that they're typically used to drinking. They'll be out of the budget now and others might be interested in trying something new, but I think we'll start to see that happen more and more, at least the next year.

Yeah, good points. Wendy, what are your thoughts for the future of rosé?

I mean, I pretty much I think Nicole is on. I think France is going to continue to be the leader. But I also agree that there's opportunity for wines from the US. You know, there's a lot of love for California out there. So I think that that's there's a lot of opportunity there. But like I said before, I do hope that it doesn't become like I appreciate the same supreme as the rosé.

That's a bit darker in color, a bit more of a serious dry rosé. I hope that that remains because I think it's so important to have that character sense of place since personality behind the wine. And so again I think it's you know, it's up to us and the trade to sort of continue to offer customers. I worry that, you know, in some maybe smaller brick and mortar stores, there's just not enough room on the shelf like we wine.com have where we can offer, you know, 500 different roses on a given day, you know, the customers want to want to travel and want to, you know, have that sort of lifestyle experience.

And while they do in their minds, think of France, I think that there is a lot of opportunity. I mean, with you know, we haven't really talked much about sparkling, but I mean, with Prosecco Rosé being, you know, a newly designated category, I think there's great opportunity there. And so I think we'll continue to see other regions grow.

But France will remain the top.

Yeah, I think you're you're quite right on that. I think France is not going to give up that position at all. And I think we're all enjoying those French rosé. We're just not enjoying the the shipping time to get them to the US, which is now taking 3 to 4 months longer than we we used to experience. And, and then of course it's just hitting the shore and not working through our three tier distribution system.

So and that of course, is taking longer as well. So you're seeing rosé show up, you know, five months later than you used to see it, which is a challenge for everyone when you're building your wine lists and trying to manage for the distributors and of course, for the producers, anything that I should have asked your thoughts on rosé that you feel like we should share?

Nicole Um, you know, I still think that we're still less and less of an issue, but still getting over the pink drink of rosé. And I think we've made a lot of progress. But I mean, just yesterday we were serving Rose Frazee out on our function lawn here and poured a glass for some for someone that had ordered it.

And her husband turned around and said, What is that? And she goes frozen out. You won't like it. It's a girly drink. And I you know, I just I want us to get over this, you know. And I think that when men Brad Pitt and, you know, put his name on Mirrorball with Angelina Jolie, which, you know, that's all changed now.

But that kind of started a movement, I think, where it was cool for men to drink rosé. And Brad Pitt can do it. I can do it. And, you know, more and more, you know, walking outside for brunch, you know, I see groups of six men sharing a magnum of rosé. I love it. I think that's incredible. And, you know, I still am.

Yesterday happens and I'm like, where where's this progress? And, you know, I think that there's still this, like, stigma against it. And I just I just wish everyone would get over that.

Good point. Wendy, any any parting thoughts?

Well, I mean, I think we've covered good ground. I you know, I think we just need to keep keep educating, keep, you know, giving customers choice. And I think, you know, I guess one thing we didn't really talk that much about, but is we do have customers seeking wines made from organically grown grapes and things like that. And, you know, there is some confusion, I think, out there about the difference between natural wines and organically grown grapes and all of that.

And so, again, I mean, that's that's about educating customers, but I do think that there is some interest there and it'll be it'll be interesting to see how that goes and how that expands.

You know, that's that's a good point, Wendy, because there are so many different certifications. And the rosé we bring from from France is organically certified. In France, we're certified Napa Green Here Winery and vineyard. And there's just a lot of different certifications and perhaps lack of availability of knowledge, of understanding the differences between those certifications. And so much of what we're doing is trying to be sustainable and what's right for the soil, what's right for the land, what's right for the people.

And there's there's a lot of components to it that aren't just any one category anymore. And so maybe we'll all have to get together and delve into that a little bit more next time, because I'm I'm curious what the Wine.com data is showing as people are looking at those certifications online.

Well, just to touch on that briefly, I mean, because there are so many different types of certifications wines can get from all over the world, we currently just use a green icon for any one of those, but I do think it's important to expand a bit on that and to be able to, again, I keep going back to education, but to be able to educate, customers are curious and they want to know what's behind that.

And so I think that there's opportunity to to tell that story.

Yeah, I agree with you. Well, thank you all so much for joining us today on the Sets of Recipes podcast. Please subscribe and listen to our other great guests and in the meantime, be well, be kind and cheers. Thanks for joining us.

Cheers. Thank you.

Thank you.