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From Dyslexia to MedTech Startup Success—Gwen Hannema's Journey
Episode 60 • 5th March 2025 • Designing Successful Startups • Jothy Rosenberg
00:00:00 00:38:58

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Summary

Gwen Hannema shares his insights on the challenges and triumphs of launching medtech startups, highlighting the critical importance of having a solid shareholder agreement to avoid potential pitfalls. With a multilingual background and a personal connection to the medical field through family experiences with back pain, Gwen emphasizes the value of grit and perseverance in the face of adversity. He discusses his journey from engineering to entrepreneurship, revealing the lessons learned from previous startup failures and how they shaped his current venture, Orthosens. Gwen's innovative approach integrates implantable sensors into existing medical devices, aiming to revolutionize patient monitoring without the limitations of battery life. Through personal anecdotes and professional insights, he inspires aspiring founders to trust in themselves and remain resilient amidst challenges.

Notes

Gwen Hannema, a seasoned entrepreneur with a multilingual background, shares his journey through the challenging landscape of medtech startups. Born in Switzerland and having lived in various countries, his rich cultural experiences fuel his passion for innovation. The conversation delves deeply into the contrasts between the startup cultures in Europe and the United States, highlighting the European tendency towards risk aversion and the stigma associated with failure. Unlike in the U.S., where past failures can be seen as valuable learning experiences, in Switzerland, admitting to failed ventures can lead to being labeled a 'failure.' This stark difference in mindset is explored through Gwen's personal anecdotes about his own entrepreneurial failures, which shaped his resilience and determination to succeed.

The episode also emphasizes the critical importance of language and communication in both personal and professional realms. Gwen's upbringing in a multilingual household instilled in him the belief that language skills are invaluable assets that no one can take away. He passionately advocates for nurturing language learning in children, reflecting on how it opens doors and creates opportunities. As a dyslexic individual, Gwen faced significant challenges in education, but these experiences have only strengthened his resolve to make a positive impact in the world, particularly in the medical technology field. His current startup, Orthosens, aims to revolutionize how orthopedic implants communicate with healthcare providers, ensuring better patient outcomes and transforming pain management solutions.

Gwen's insights into startup dynamics extend to the importance of having a solid shareholder agreement. He recounts lessons learned from his previous ventures, emphasizing the necessity of clear agreements among co-founders to prevent misunderstandings and conflicts that can derail a company. The discussion culminates in a powerful message about grit and perseverance, encouraging aspiring entrepreneurs to face challenges head-on and to maintain belief in their vision, regardless of the obstacles they encounter. As Gwen puts it, "Trust in yourself and don't take no for an answer." This episode not only inspires with stories of resilience but also equips listeners with practical advice for navigating the complexities of startup life.

Takeaways

  • Learning multiple languages opens up opportunities that no one can take away from you.
  • Emotional detachment from the challenges you face can help you solve problems effectively.
  • Establish proper shareholder agreements to avoid major conflicts and misunderstandings down the road.
  • Family support plays a crucial role in building the grit necessary for overcoming challenges.
  • Building a startup involves learning from past failures and continuously iterating on your ideas.
  • Developing a clear vision for your startup's impact can guide your long-term goals.

Chapters

  • 00:04 - Cultural Perspectives on Risk and Failure
  • 05:18 - The Multilingual Journey
  • 10:32 - Challenges and Learnings in Startup Ventures
  • 22:05 - The Importance of Founders' Agreements
  • 26:01 - Lessons Learned in Entrepreneurship

Transcripts

Gwen Hahnema:

Foreign.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Rosenberg, the host of Designing Successful Startups, where today's guest is Gwen Hahnema.

Gwen Hahnema:

I would say in general Europe, sorry, we are, we are less willing to take risk.

Gwen Hahnema:

And also with respect to failing, if you mention here in Switzerland, typical environment, you say I failed two startups.

Gwen Hahnema:

People say oh wow, you're a failure.

Gwen Hahnema:

Why, why, why did you continue and persevere in the us?

Gwen Hahnema:

When I met last week in in in Davos, there was a US investor.

Gwen Hahnema:

And when I say I failed two startups before, I say ah.

Jothi Rosenberg:

In this episode, Gwen and I talk about his amazing multilingual background.

Jothi Rosenberg:

His dad speaks eight and his mom speaks six languages with a strong drive to accomplish that himself based on knowing that no matter what happens in life, no one can take that away from him.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Gwen went from an engineering background to starting three med tech startups.

Jothi Rosenberg:

So far he's had bumps in the road, even failures as he calls them, but he learned from his mistakes as we all do.

Jothi Rosenberg:

He has a strong vision for his current startup called Orthosens, that allows critical sensors inside the body to send real time data to receivers outside the body without the risk of a battery inside the body failing.

Jothi Rosenberg:

He is motivated by family members with serious back pain, just like me.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Gwen's profile in Grit is based on a disability.

Jothi Rosenberg:

His is that he is dyslexic and at 8 years old could still not read, whereas mine was losing a leg and a lung before I was 19.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Both of us were told what we can't do.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Gwen's brothers were not dyslexic, so he learned to work twice as hard to get ahead.

Jothi Rosenberg:

And when teachers dismissed him as never going to make something of himself, with the backing of very wise parents, he fought back and refused to accept Kant.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Similarly, my rallying cry became who says I can't?

Jothi Rosenberg:

Whenever someone tried to manufacture a roadblock in front of me.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Both of us refused to accept that defeatism in life and in business.

Jothi Rosenberg:

And that Grit has sustained us justice as it sustains all startup founders.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Hello Gwyn, welcome to the podcast.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Thanks for having me.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Can we start off by having you tell everybody where you're originally from and where you live now?

Gwen Hahnema:

So originally from I was born in Canton Bern, so capital city of Switzerland.

Gwen Hahnema:

Then I moved around in Canton, Solothurn to the Netherlands, in Gouda, then in France for a couple of years, Switzerland in Lausanne had the chance to do my master's thesis in Melbourne in Australia and then back to Switzerland and so I had to travel a bit around and now we are based in Campton Jura, where we are developing our startup.

Jothi Rosenberg:

So big, huge circle back to Switzerland.

Gwen Hahnema:

Correct.

Gwen Hahnema:

That's it.

Gwen Hahnema:

And you can hear from my accent, I'm half Swiss, half Dutch, and my English accent, you have the typical Dutch, you know, you have.

Gwen Hahnema:

If I exaggerate a bit.

Gwen Hahnema:

So this is, this is just to have a bit of my background.

Jothi Rosenberg:

So it's good to.

Jothi Rosenberg:

When you mentioned the town you were in Holland, when I was young, we had a, what we call an au pair.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Like a, you know, it's someone from a.

Jothi Rosenberg:

From a foreign country usually who comes and stays.

Jothi Rosenberg:

And ours was from Amsterdam and she taught us all to say Gouda correctly.

Gwen Hahnema:

Cool.

Gwen Hahnema:

Fantastic.

Gwen Hahnema:

So, you know, I wouldn't think that the cheese is good there, but at least you can put it on the map.

Gwen Hahnema:

Yeah.

Jothi Rosenberg:

So it was funny because we, this past summer, we were in Amsterdam on the beginning of a river cruise that starts in Amsterdam and ends in Budapest.

Jothi Rosenberg:

And, and so we were with a, a tour guide and, and she held up a big round of cheese and she said, does anybody know what this is?

Jothi Rosenberg:

And I said, she looked at me like, you know, what is going on?

Jothi Rosenberg:

Why does an American know that?

Jothi Rosenberg:

Because everybody in America calls it Gouda.

Jothi Rosenberg:

And it's just, it's hard to.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Hard to hear that.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Anyway, so wait a minute.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Which is your first language?

Gwen Hahnema:

So French is my mother, Tom.

Gwen Hahnema:

Also Dutch with my more on my father's side and mother's side is.

Gwen Hahnema:

Is French.

Jothi Rosenberg:

I see.

Jothi Rosenberg:

So pretty much equal those two.

Gwen Hahnema:

Correct.

Jothi Rosenberg:

And then you, you obviously, you know, you know English quite well.

Jothi Rosenberg:

And, and you must have had to learn a few extra words when you were over in Australia.

Jothi Rosenberg:

You know, they have funny words for things.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Well, they're not funny to them.

Jothi Rosenberg:

And then besides.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Okay, so besides those three, what else.

Gwen Hahnema:

Do you speak fluently?

Gwen Hahnema:

Portuguese.

Gwen Hahnema:

And my wife is half Brazilian.

Gwen Hahnema:

Spanish and Italian, so I've learned Portuguese, Spanish.

Gwen Hahnema:

I've traveled in South America for three months backpacking before starting my first startup.

Gwen Hahnema:

And so I learned it also in school, but then I mixed with Portuguese, so I stopped.

Gwen Hahnema:

And now I'm 100% so fluent in Portuguese and then Spanish.

Gwen Hahnema:

I will catch up.

Gwen Hahnema:

And also a bit of, of German.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Okay, and what, what languages will you try to have your kids learn?

Gwen Hahnema:

That's a good question.

Gwen Hahnema:

My daughter actually speaks, so French, Portuguese.

Gwen Hahnema:

She started also with English.

Gwen Hahnema:

She's three years old and she started school now in German.

Gwen Hahnema:

So she.

Gwen Hahnema:

Keep gentle.

Gwen Hahnema:

I'll start Dutch later on.

Gwen Hahnema:

But she, she's already tackling four languages at three.

Jothi Rosenberg:

I don't know how that brain can do that, it's unbelievable.

Jothi Rosenberg:

I wish we had that built into our education process over here, but we don't.

Gwen Hahnema:

I'm grateful that, you know, it was more on my parents side.

Gwen Hahnema:

My father speaks eight language, my mother six and my older brother learned Chinese.

Gwen Hahnema:

He's been living five years in Guangzhou.

Gwen Hahnema:

And they told us already one thing when, since we were young, they said learn languages because everything can happen in life, but nobody can take that away from you.

Gwen Hahnema:

And I'm trying to, to give that back somehow to transmit that also to, to my daughter because I think it's, it's really opens a lot of, of possibilities.

Jothi Rosenberg:

So your daughter is three.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Okay.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Yeah.

Jothi Rosenberg:

So that's just, I mean that's when they're just beginning to learn a single language.

Jothi Rosenberg:

That's just, just astounding.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Okay, so you told me that you had an engineering background and you got your, got your master's in what, what branch of engineering?

Gwen Hahnema:

So I finished my master in mechanical engineering.

Gwen Hahnema:

I had a specialty in aerodynamic high fluid dynamics and computer simulation.

Gwen Hahnema:

And then I managed during my masters.

Gwen Hahnema:

That's the first introduction I would say to the medtech field because in Melbourne I was studying the stability of arteriosclerosic plague, aneurysm, et cetera.

Gwen Hahnema:

And to be able to qualify that with the numerical model.

Gwen Hahnema:

And then I was my first step in the, in the medtech field and I can combine basically the two between engineering and medical.

Gwen Hahnema:

in the medtech field back in:

Jothi Rosenberg:

But what, what was the thing that you saw not being done or not being done well, that made you make that jump and start that first one?

Gwen Hahnema:

the first startup was back in:

Gwen Hahnema:

We finished studying at, at EPFL, so the institute of Engineering in Lausanne.

Gwen Hahnema:

And basically we, we were quite into 3D printing and numerical models and we said, well, we can optimize leverage, you know, the, the design freedom that is offered by 3D Printing to develop a lot, a whole lot of products.

Gwen Hahnema:

So one was doing this, a custom insole that could adapt to, to specific foot from, from each patient.

Gwen Hahnema:

We also wanted to look into 3D printed heart valves.

Gwen Hahnema:

But in the end we, we didn't manage to convince with respect to the, the proper business model between consultancy service and so after two years we stopped.

Gwen Hahnema:

But it was already a good learning.

Gwen Hahnema:

And then I took on a job as a researcher in Jubendorf, close to Zurich.

Gwen Hahnema:

And six months later I started my Second startup that was more related really to back pain, treating back pain in a percutaneous way.

Gwen Hahnema:

So if you have irradiating back pain, it goes all the way through your legs.

Gwen Hahnema:

And I was quite familiar with that topic because in my family I've close family members that suffered from.

Gwen Hahnema:

From lumbar stenosis or different kind of back pain.

Gwen Hahnema:

And so there it starts really iterating on what could we do and what is not, what was not done.

Gwen Hahnema:

And there the idea was basically instead of putting a standard screws, I mean four screws and two rolls in the patient back, we wanted to place percutaneously.

Gwen Hahnema:

So in 15 minutes instead of two hours, a small implant that was basically widening, widening up again the space between the vertebrae to do a decompr.

Gwen Hahnema:

And you could do that in an outpatient procedure instead of a normal inpatient as it, as it was still currently done.

Gwen Hahnema:

And so that's where it started.

Gwen Hahnema:

We got along.

Gwen Hahnema:

Maybe we'll discuss a bit later what went wrong and what we could potentially avoid with a big an active shareholder.

Gwen Hahnema:

An active founder disputes that basically that ended up killing the company.

Gwen Hahnema:

But then I learned a lot during that journey.

Gwen Hahnema:

Now I started my third one flying solo now and there we are basically developing implantable sensors to make implants talk talk.

Gwen Hahnema:

So any standard orthopedic implant, we can integrate our sensors in it a battery free, it's externally powered.

Gwen Hahnema:

And then we can get key physiological data to the patient, surgeon and.

Gwen Hahnema:

And healthcare professional.

Jothi Rosenberg:

So I may be jumping to conclusions but.

Jothi Rosenberg:

So you haven't told me any of the details but you had on number two, you had issues with founders which.

Gwen Hahnema:

Correct.

Jothi Rosenberg:

I've had numerous times.

Jothi Rosenberg:

I think, I think, I think I've had three major catastrophes because of something a founder that just kind of goes, I don't know, crazy.

Jothi Rosenberg:

And I don't mean crazy in the diagnosis kind of way.

Jothi Rosenberg:

I just mean causing.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Causing just a lot of pain and trouble.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Anyway, the jumping to conclusions is.

Jothi Rosenberg:

So then you said this one, I'm solo.

Jothi Rosenberg:

There are other way to solve the founder's problem other than not having one, right?

Jothi Rosenberg:

No, absolutely.

Gwen Hahnema:

It was just in terms of launching.

Gwen Hahnema:

So I'm open, you know to have also a late co founder if he or she can bring really some value to the company.

Gwen Hahnema:

Was more back then in the time when I had to launch.

Gwen Hahnema:

I said okay, let's go this one.

Gwen Hahnema:

You have other challenges from investor, let's say yeah, from a risk perspective.

Gwen Hahnema:

If I invest in a company, you're a solo founder that had also other barriers.

Gwen Hahnema:

But I think learned a lot during the previous journey and I have some entrepreneurial scars that I can also leverage when I talk to investors.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Well, let's talk about the environment.

Jothi Rosenberg:

What do you think about the environment of trying to do a startup and maybe we should be specific a medtech startup in Switzerland or in whatever you know about sort of more broadly in Europe compared to the sort of hotspots for startups which is sort of the northeast United States, Silicon Valley, maybe there's a pocket or two elsewhere like Austin, Texas.

Jothi Rosenberg:

But what do you think of the challenges that are you're facing that may be harder for you than if you were doing this somewhere in the, in the States, let's say.

Gwen Hahnema:

That's a great question.

Gwen Hahnema:

I would say in general in Europe, sorry, we are less willing to take risk.

Gwen Hahnema:

And also with respect to failing, if you mention here in Switzerland in typical environment you say I failed two startups, people say oh wow, you're a failure.

Gwen Hahnema:

Why do you continue and persevere in the US When I met last week in Davos, there was a US investor and when I say I failed to start up before I say ah, that's good.

Gwen Hahnema:

So it's a more, I would say from that aspect we have a long way to go.

Gwen Hahnema:

In Europe we are way more risk adverse than in the U.S.

Gwen Hahnema:

i wouldn't in, in terms of Switzerland, I say we have quite some, some tools for non dilutive funding.

Gwen Hahnema:

For instance, with the previous company managed to secure a free 2 million in non dilutive funding to take the project off the ground.

Gwen Hahnema:

In this one we are roughly a half a million and we are preparing.

Gwen Hahnema:

So there are different mechanisms of grants that you can have for research grants that can help, you know, get the project off the ground.

Gwen Hahnema:

But I would say then in this, this death value that you typically have when you're between pre seed, pre seed, seed round maybe here they are expecting way more in terms of product development in the US if you have a clear vision and already a product development roadmap to raise capital, I think it's way easier.

Gwen Hahnema:

I cannot judge but this is the feedback I've heard also from quite a fellow entrepreneurs with their, with their startup journey and that they're now pivoting also to the US to raise more capital.

Jothi Rosenberg:

I can, I can comment on, on two things you just said.

Jothi Rosenberg:

One, the, the number of failures.

Jothi Rosenberg:

I want to make you feel better because prior to the one I have right now and we don't know how it's going to end, I did eight, two had good outcomes that Means six did not.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Okay, now I wouldn't actually call all six of them failures.

Jothi Rosenberg:

It's just that it's because some of them did sell.

Jothi Rosenberg:

It's just that that no one made any money and so that's not considered a success.

Jothi Rosenberg:

The one that I am currently still trying to find an exit for, it won't be a great exit either.

Jothi Rosenberg:

And you know, they say 8 out of 10 startups fail, right?

Jothi Rosenberg:

I mean that's a statistic that we bandy around all the time.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Pretty much right on that.

Jothi Rosenberg:

I won't do a tenth, I'm not doing another one.

Jothi Rosenberg:

So it's my question.

Gwen Hahnema:

I would have asked you if you would want to do one more.

Jothi Rosenberg:

No, I don't want, I don't have to prove that.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Yes, Indeed, you know, 8 out of 10 fail because that would say that it's going to be a failure.

Jothi Rosenberg:

But I don't think it would be.

Jothi Rosenberg:

But the lessons you learn are different for each one.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Right?

Jothi Rosenberg:

And, and you, and you try not to make the same mistake that, that you made before, but you know, the situation is never going to be exactly the same as, as what you had before.

Jothi Rosenberg:

And all the things that you're, you've learned from the previous ones are extremely valuable to you and to, and to others.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Which is one of why we do these podcasts to try to, you know, talk about what went wrong and let's hear some of some of your challenges.

Gwen Hahnema:

I wanted to ask you the question, what would be your main three takeaways for the, the, the, the founders or the upcoming founders that, that listen to this podcast?

Jothi Rosenberg:

I think there are a set of things and I think it's like, you know, just about five things that you have to come out of the gate when you, you say, okay, I've got this great idea, I think it can change the world and I want to, and the only way of course to do that is to create a company.

Jothi Rosenberg:

So I want to create a company.

Jothi Rosenberg:

And, and you know, you say and, and you have to focus on these five things because unless you are rich and you're self funding and you can afford, you know, not to, to raise outside money, the only way to, to, to really get going and raise a significant amount of money, which I'm, where I'm talking about the series A is to prove product market fit.

Jothi Rosenberg:

I'm kind of working from the end back to the beginning to prove product market fit and, and, and, and immediately get paying customers because that's what proving product market fit means.

Jothi Rosenberg:

And that is nowadays it didn't used to be.

Jothi Rosenberg:

It is nowadays an absolute requirement to raising a Series A, and Series A's can be pretty substantial.

Jothi Rosenberg:

And then you're, and then you're focused on growth.

Jothi Rosenberg:

But you got to figure out, so the, the steps are, you know, you got to figure out who should be the CEO.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Now that may seem easy in your case, but it's not always.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Because if there's a group of founders, then it, you know, and, and let's suppose you're all scientists or you're all engineers, or in some way or another, you're not sales and marketing people.

Jothi Rosenberg:

And I made a huge mistake.

Jothi Rosenberg:

The first opportunity where I, I was being asked by my co founders to be the CEO, and I had a pretty serious case of imposter syndrome.

Jothi Rosenberg:

And because I was coming out of academia, I'd been a professor, I had had something.

Jothi Rosenberg:

I mean, it was, it was a really good design for a supercomputer.

Jothi Rosenberg:

And I understood there was a market need for it.

Jothi Rosenberg:

And so we were, we were, we were going for it, but I was not.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Had no sales and marketing experience whatsoever.

Jothi Rosenberg:

And the first investor I met with kind of dug deep into that imposter syndrome and said, who the heck do you think you are being the CEO?

Jothi Rosenberg:

You don't have the right credentials.

Jothi Rosenberg:

And that made, made me just, you know, want to go get that experience.

Jothi Rosenberg:

But the other investor that I talked to next said, no, that's wrong.

Jothi Rosenberg:

The tech founder who can articulate and with clearly and with passion, what is the problem that we're solving and why are we uniquely positioned to solve it?

Jothi Rosenberg:

Because in the first, you don't need a lot of customers to kind of prove these things.

Jothi Rosenberg:

You know, you need, you need a handful without being a, you know, a great sales guy who can manage other salespeople and can, you know, put a process in place to, to grow the sales of a company, that's not what you need.

Jothi Rosenberg:

You need somebody that can sell three, five customers and that could be a person that doesn't have any sales and marketing experience, but they can talk, you know, till they're blue in the face about how great their thing is.

Jothi Rosenberg:

And so who's the CEO?

Jothi Rosenberg:

And then getting the team, okay, you've got to have a strong team.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Doesn't have to be the best team in the world, but they have to be a strong team.

Jothi Rosenberg:

And, and you have to find a lighthouse customer usually that can help you define minimum viable product.

Jothi Rosenberg:

And you iterate on that, and then you're going towards product market fit.

Jothi Rosenberg:

And then you're selling those multiple customers.

Jothi Rosenberg:

It I do believe that if, if you come out of the gate and you do those five things and you let everything else not distract you, that you can dramatically increase the odds of success.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Now, I just lectured to you on your podcast because you asked me a question.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Hi.

Jothi Rosenberg:

The podcast you are listening to is a companion to my recent book Tech Startup Toolkit how to Launch Strong and Exit Big.

Jothi Rosenberg:

This is the book I wish I'd had as I was founding and running eight startups over 35 years.

Jothi Rosenberg:

I tell the unvarnished truth about what went right and especially about what went wrong.

Jothi Rosenberg:

You could get it from all the usual booksellers.

Jothi Rosenberg:

I hope you like it.

Jothi Rosenberg:

It's a true labor of love.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Now back to the show.

Gwen Hahnema:

That's great insight.

Gwen Hahnema:

And I also think for this imposter syndrome, you know, I've heard early on from a fellow MedTech founder, that serial entrepreneur.

Gwen Hahnema:

Now he stepped down, he grew his company, he's doing robotics surgery.

Gwen Hahnema:

And then he stepped down and I think they reached 200 employees.

Gwen Hahnema:

And then he stepped down from the initial CEO position to the operational position and now just to scale because he recognized I don't have now the experience.

Gwen Hahnema:

I managed to grow the company until this milestone.

Gwen Hahnema:

Now I leave it to more experienced people and still learning on it.

Gwen Hahnema:

So this I think, but at the same time, I think that with the technical background you have still to learn as you, as you mentioned, you know, the sale component and that you're able to acquire the first three key customers.

Gwen Hahnema:

But then I think you can articulate, you have more tools in your toolbox, basically articulate what you're trying to do and achieve.

Gwen Hahnema:

But still you should be aware at a certain point in time you can stretch, you can grow, but at a certain point in time you have to be clear also when do I step down and when another person has more competence than me to be able to push this company forward in the next growth stage.

Jothi Rosenberg:

And I did that three times subsequent to this first startup.

Jothi Rosenberg:

And you know, making that mistake and not being the CEO of that company because it ended up selling on 2 million in revenue, it sold for 106 million.

Jothi Rosenberg:

And not being there personally cost me 10 million.

Jothi Rosenberg:

I still had some stock, but it cost me not having founders CEO stock cost me $10 million to make that.

Jothi Rosenberg:

That was an incredible mistake.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Bigger than most people's mistakes.

Jothi Rosenberg:

The bigger mistake, of course, is if you make a mistake that causes the company to completely fail.

Jothi Rosenberg:

And what would you say?

Jothi Rosenberg:

So you kind of alluded to some of the Things that happened on number one and number two, what would you say the biggest thing that, that caused their demise was?

Jothi Rosenberg:

You know, in each case I would.

Gwen Hahnema:

Say the, the first one, I mean we just finished, just finished university, we just wanted to start.

Gwen Hahnema:

We had no business expertise or experience and there I would say we were, we were too naive thinking, you know everything when you do your roadmap or from the funding side, from the product development side, we are too ambitious and everything takes roughly twice as twice or three times as long as you expected if you're not able to reach those milestones.

Gwen Hahnema:

Also from an investor perspective they think that you're not able to deliver also on your promises.

Gwen Hahnema:

So the first one I would say we didn't have a convincing business model because it was a kind of hybrid between consultancy service with 3D printing and numerical optimization which was still not trendy, trendy back then.

Gwen Hahnema:

Trendy back then.

Gwen Hahnema:

The second one I think this one was a big also some I would say stupid mistakes.

Gwen Hahnema:

We incorporated the company, we were three equal shares, no vesting, no cliff fully issued.

Gwen Hahnema:

And then we basically saw okay, everybody should work at the same pace and the same contribution to the company.

Gwen Hahnema:

And in the end we had no proper shareholder agreement also in place because we were based on trust.

Gwen Hahnema:

And you think those people were way more senior than I was and I thought that okay, I will learn from them and from their business expertise and, and you put a lot of faith and trust into people but when it goes south it's better to have all those contracts in place where you say okay, we sat around the table, we, we agreed on what's what, what we'll do, how we will act in case something happens and then you just remove all the emotional component out of the equation.

Gwen Hahnema:

And I think that was a big mistake that we did.

Gwen Hahnema:

And to give a bit of, of insights to the people who may want to launch a company, it may be sounds stupid simple but really sit down together and look not only on the personal side but the private side what success would mean from a company perspective and how do you want to structure your next five to 10, 10 years of life on the private side as well and then see if you can find something together that is basically that can combine with the different visions from each of the co founder and see from there how we can build a clear strategy to be able to move forward and then obviously investing, I mean with respect to the shares that you have a CLIFF Clear at 12 months or 18 months that you see who is contributing to what put maybe an Independent advisor on your board.

Gwen Hahnema:

I'm not on my board.

Gwen Hahnema:

The board of my own company.

Gwen Hahnema:

I have two external people.

Gwen Hahnema:

And so then we are able to clearly, you know, differentiate between shareholder, a decision at the strategic level on the board and then the execution team.

Gwen Hahnema:

And I think if you have already those, those things in place, it can avoid a lot of pitfalls because on my side, that's what happened.

Gwen Hahnema:

I mean, through a venture competition in Switzerland.

Gwen Hahnema:

And then the jury member they just saw on looking on LinkedIn profile, okay, one founder is not active.

Gwen Hahnema:

She's doing 10 different things, just she's not fully committed to the company.

Gwen Hahnema:

And then you want to, you want to go through maybe a reverse vesting or an exercise.

Gwen Hahnema:

It's not easy.

Gwen Hahnema:

But then we basically came into a lot of emotional in the equation.

Gwen Hahnema:

And then I said, okay, let's take an external mediator that can help us out in this process so we have a neutral point of view that could assess and help us doing that.

Gwen Hahnema:

Managed to sign a settlement agreement.

Gwen Hahnema:

And then you think, okay, I sign a settlement agreement in front of a mediator, that's doctor in law everything.

Gwen Hahnema:

And in the end then two weeks later, basically she doesn't want to comply and she take the company hostage again.

Gwen Hahnema:

So then you're like, okay, wow, what's going on?

Gwen Hahnema:

We had to recapitalize.

Gwen Hahnema:

We recapitalized the company because it was close to bankruptcy.

Gwen Hahnema:

And then we said, what are the learnings from that?

Gwen Hahnema:

Because when I was running around to seek for a different investor, they were all laughing at me and saying, hey, Gwen, I mean, you had an inactive founder that took hostage of the company and now you want to be able to, to execute and deliver on the next, your next milestones, but you don't have a proper shareholder agreement in place.

Gwen Hahnema:

I mean, no way.

Gwen Hahnema:

And obviously it makes total sense.

Gwen Hahnema:

And I would say that was my.

Gwen Hahnema:

Maybe at a certain point that I also learned is, you know, you have to be emotionally detached from the problem that you're solving.

Gwen Hahnema:

And maybe because I was, they were leveraging the fact that I was attached from a personal level, that people in my, in my family were suffering from back pain, and that I wanted indirectly was a kind of childish dream to say, okay, I can, I can develop something that I know will go in the body of a close relative.

Gwen Hahnema:

And I would have followed this whole development process and I think they leveraged this, maybe this emotional connection on my side.

Gwen Hahnema:

So that was a big mistake.

Gwen Hahnema:

I learned a lot.

Gwen Hahnema:

But I would say from, from the founders who are listening to Us go through this exercise, look clearly how you want to structure the business.

Gwen Hahnema:

What are the objectives on the long run?

Gwen Hahnema:

Also in the private side, I mean, you want to have kids in the next couple of years, you want to move into other countries.

Gwen Hahnema:

I mean, just to see how you can combine those elements, just to be sure that everybody is aligned.

Gwen Hahnema:

And you have that in writing.

Gwen Hahnema:

I think that was a big learning from my side.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Well, what about the current one, orthosense?

Jothi Rosenberg:

Has everything been going, first of all, tell us a little bit about where you want this to be in five years.

Jothi Rosenberg:

And then could you also just say, has everything gone perfectly smoothly or have there been any hiccups on this one?

Jothi Rosenberg:

But not obviously serious ones because it's still going fine.

Gwen Hahnema:

Yeah, absolutely.

Gwen Hahnema:

So we started the company one year ago and we are basically developing so those implantable sensors to integrate into any standard implants to make them talk and gather those key parameters.

Gwen Hahnema:

And our objective by:

Gwen Hahnema:

So what we are aiming to do is solving a big problem in orthopedics.

Gwen Hahnema:

I mean, outside a quote, Bill Hunter from Canary Medical, he's saying basically we, with surgical robots and everything, we are putting implants with micrometer precision in the body, but we are measuring the outcome with a sex step.

Gwen Hahnema:

And for me, that resonates quite strongly because it's true.

Gwen Hahnema:

I mean, for lumbar fusion procedure, you have over 250 techniques, 18 methods to be able to assess the outcomes for patients, and there's no standardization to be able to qualify those outcomes properly.

Gwen Hahnema:

lives by:

Jothi Rosenberg:

Are there other types of sensors besides ones that are related to the spine that you could also begin to gather data from?

Jothi Rosenberg:

Like, are there sensors that people put around in the heart or any other organs that would be measurable by you through the skin?

Gwen Hahnema:

So yeah, there's one company that was required by Abbott or St.

Gwen Hahnema:

Jude Medical before, it's called cardio MEMS.

Gwen Hahnema:

And they were basically measuring the pressure inside, inside of the arteries to be able and do that remotely to detect early failures.

Gwen Hahnema:

Basically what we have is, I can show you, I have a small example.

Gwen Hahnema:

This is a alif cage.

Gwen Hahnema:

So that you put for, for lumbar fusion, for instance.

Gwen Hahnema:

So you go from an anterior approach and then they are basically regenerating the height between the vertebrae.

Gwen Hahnema:

So they remove your disc and then they put it in between and it will create a bone fusion between Your vertebrae.

Gwen Hahnema:

And what we do is basically we can integrate inside of those existing implants with our own sensors.

Gwen Hahnema:

And then you have an external wearable device that is powering a bit like your cooking stove, you know, with inductive coupling.

Gwen Hahnema:

It's powering from the outside as one of our usp.

Gwen Hahnema:

And so we are not limited with an implantable battery life like for instance Canary Medical.

Gwen Hahnema:

If they want to do real time data transmission, they'll be out of power in a couple of days.

Gwen Hahnema:

And we had a different approach by saying, well let's put all the complexity outside of the body and be able to easily recharge those battery to power the implant from the outside and not have an embedded battery.

Gwen Hahnema:

Also it will avoid me, I think some gray hairs from a regulatory perspective to get that through the fda.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Well, I was going to ask the FDA the big FDA question, How long will that take do you think once you're ready to get FDA approval?

Gwen Hahnema:

That's a good question.

Gwen Hahnema:

For now, I think it's at least two years that we have to go through.

Gwen Hahnema:

We have to schedule a pre sub meeting with them to really go through the different details and see if we agree on the product classification and then the evidence that they would need to clear the device.

Gwen Hahnema:

But basically why did we go from.

Gwen Hahnema:

From Europe?

Gwen Hahnema:

It's a bit funny but why from Europe?

Gwen Hahnema:

You go to the US and basically with the new mdr, so medical device regulation that's still a mess in Europe we love to overregulate things.

Gwen Hahnema:

Basically we were up class a lot of implants were upclassed through Class 3 device.

Gwen Hahnema:

So that means that you have to do a really stringent clinical trials with at least two to three year endpoint to be able then to hand in your regulatory dossier for them to give you the CE mark.

Gwen Hahnema:

Now here what is interesting is in the US as we can integrate into existing implants, we could integrate already the sensor and leverage predicate device.

Gwen Hahnema:

You don't attach a clinical claim to your sensor and your monitoring device, but then you're able to gather that data through real world evidence, you know, with the post market surveillance once it's in the market and then you can file a separate standalone approach.

Gwen Hahnema:

Standalone application.

Gwen Hahnema:

So it's a two stage approach, but you can already generate revenues, you're not getting reimbursed, but you can already generate revenues based on real world evidence afterward for the standalone application.

Gwen Hahnema:

So this is the strategy that we decided to go and that's why the FDA pathway will enable us I think in a two Year horizon to be then on the market once we're ready.

Jothi Rosenberg:

That's exciting.

Jothi Rosenberg:

So, you know, we always say that startup people must be gritty.

Jothi Rosenberg:

They must have grit.

Jothi Rosenberg:

And so where would you say your grit comes from?

Gwen Hahnema:

It's a grit.

Gwen Hahnema:

I can tell that I can confirm that a lot of people, they are always telling you as a founder, the numbers of obstacles.

Gwen Hahnema:

And I think also on your side, you faced it quite often.

Gwen Hahnema:

I would say one thing that really came is, well, first since my young age, I'm dyslexic and so I had always to work more than my two brothers to be able to in school, et cetera.

Gwen Hahnema:

So always had to put extra work to be able to achieve, let's say, the same result as they, as they did.

Gwen Hahnema:

And then maybe on a, on a personal side, what really happened is I always dreamt as a, as a lot of young boys to be a pilot.

Gwen Hahnema:

I said, okay, let's go to the Champions League, let's do a fighter jet pilot.

Gwen Hahnema:

And I never had the courage, you know, to apply because the rejection are super high.

Gwen Hahnema:

I mean, I think in Switzerland you have 1,200 and it takes six to seven per year.

Gwen Hahnema:

And the fact that I never had the courage to apply.

Gwen Hahnema:

Once I finished graduation from university, I needed to do my mandatory military service.

Gwen Hahnema:

wait, I knew that I had until:

Gwen Hahnema:

And I never had the courage to do that.

Gwen Hahnema:

And when the, the, the, the deadline ended, you know, because I turned 24, I say, okay, you didn't have the courage to do that.

Gwen Hahnema:

And now not to have any more regrets in your life, I would always try to, to leave no stone unturned.

Gwen Hahnema:

So try everything.

Gwen Hahnema:

And if people tell you no with respect to the startup, if you believe in what you're doing, you should persevere and you should say, okay, no, then I go to the next person.

Gwen Hahnema:

And the more doors you knock on, like the likelihood that somebody will tell that your story will resonate with them increases.

Gwen Hahnema:

So I think maybe those are the two, I would say the, maybe the origin of that grid, but that you have to cultivate and nurture as a startup founder, kind of, that's really an.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Interesting story because you've got both the disability and, and how that caused you.

Jothi Rosenberg:

That's a, this thing of, you know, that's adversarial that you had to overcome, which makes you work harder, which is, which is good for you ultimately, but, but then you also had this other thing which, which ultimately caused you to, to not say I can't.

Jothi Rosenberg:

And the parallels between those two things in you and in me are, are amazing because the, the phys, the, the.

Jothi Rosenberg:

The disability for me is that I lost a leg and a lung before I was 19 and had to.

Jothi Rosenberg:

To recover from that and rebuild my self esteem which took, and in my case I use sports, excelling at sports to do that.

Jothi Rosenberg:

But then I also had everybody saying well, you can't ski, you can't swim straight, you can't bike, all these things.

Jothi Rosenberg:

And so every time I had somebody say you can't.

Jothi Rosenberg:

I'll never forget there was an employee of mine who when I was excited about giving money as a donation for someone that was trying to raise money by riding her bike from Boston to New York City, which is a four day ride, and the employee said to me, oh, you're so excited about that.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Too bad you can't do that.

Jothi Rosenberg:

And that day I bought a bike and the next year I did it.

Gwen Hahnema:

Wow.

Jothi Rosenberg:

And, and so it's the same.

Jothi Rosenberg:

And those things that you know, the, the discipline and hard work from fighting back from a disability and in, in and, and then not accepting, you know, can't or something negative also has I think set you up for the long term to be a very successful entrepreneur.

Gwen Hahnema:

Wow.

Gwen Hahnema:

You had really to overcome a tough challenge as well.

Gwen Hahnema:

And I would say also one that just popped up is, you know, when we arrive from the Netherlands, from Gouda, if you pronounce it correctly, to France.

Gwen Hahnema:

The mentality from the teacher was really different in the Netherlands.

Gwen Hahnema:

If she had for instance.

Gwen Hahnema:

I always remember that because if you had for instance made some mistakes in writing or in your math, they were giving you some small stickers and say hey, those you did really great.

Gwen Hahnema:

This one you should improve.

Gwen Hahnema:

I really like the mindset.

Gwen Hahnema:

And then you come in France, I mean that was maybe not reflective for the, from the school, but the first thing they did is that professor, she put me on the stage in front of everybody and she made me speak in French.

Gwen Hahnema:

And I mean I was shy, I had anxiety.

Gwen Hahnema:

I was also dyslexic and I couldn't read and everybody was making fun of that.

Gwen Hahnema:

And then I still remember that outside and when she met with my mother, she said wow, your, your boy is, is eight years old, he's not able to, to properly read French.

Gwen Hahnema:

He will, he will be not nothing in life.

Gwen Hahnema:

And I still remember what she said.

Gwen Hahnema:

She said yeah, but he is eight and he speaks already three languages.

Gwen Hahnema:

What about you?

Gwen Hahnema:

And that I had always the chance that you know, my parents created this kind of safe environment where they say, doesn't matter what other people think.

Gwen Hahnema:

I mean, you work on, on.

Gwen Hahnema:

On your challenges and those are then your own re.

Gwen Hahnema:

So don't let people turn you down maybe because they face something in their life and they.

Gwen Hahnema:

They're not able to lift you up.

Gwen Hahnema:

So I think this was really something also that pushed me and I had the chance to have that environment, you know, at home that my fathers and my father and my mother, they always pushed us, saying, you can choose whatever you want will be there and it gives you the courage to fail as well and to, to pick yourself up.

Gwen Hahnema:

And I think that was really, I'm really grateful for that.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Was that, was that scene with your mother, like the first time you saw her publicly back you up and, and, and make you feel strength in the face of somebody being unfair?

Gwen Hahnema:

That's a great question.

Gwen Hahnema:

I have to admit before that nothing pops up now.

Gwen Hahnema:

But I would say that at least was really something that, that really.

Gwen Hahnema:

I remember.

Gwen Hahnema:

So it.

Gwen Hahnema:

I'm certain that based on her character, she would have done it also before if something was not fair and she would have just said that maybe more daily.

Gwen Hahnema:

You know, in Europe, you have the German speaking part and no filter.

Gwen Hahnema:

I really like that.

Gwen Hahnema:

And I think she would have stood up for our kids, as most of the parents do.

Gwen Hahnema:

But this really resonated with me because then it was a kind of mental switch where I said, okay, I have this environment, the safe environment where I can fail.

Gwen Hahnema:

Give me the courage, you know, to just improve, knowing that I always have somebody that's backing me up.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Great story.

Jothi Rosenberg:

That's just really moving.

Jothi Rosenberg:

A moving story.

Jothi Rosenberg:

And I think that that's a wonderful place for us to kind of wrap things up.

Gwen Hahnema:

Time flew by.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Time did fly by, indeed.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Well, thank you very much for, for doing this.

Gwen Hahnema:

Well, thanks for, for having me and.

Gwen Hahnema:

And best of success to all the founders who want to start their journey.

Gwen Hahnema:

Trust in yourself and don't take no for an answer.

Gwen Hahnema:

Believe in the dreams and you will learn a lot during the journey.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Great words to end by.

Jothi Rosenberg:

That's a wrap.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Thanks for tuning in.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Today's takeaways are learn languages because nobody can take that away from you.

Jothi Rosenberg:

You have to be emotionally detached from the startup challenge you're solving.

Jothi Rosenberg:

To avoid major problems down the road, it's important to have a proper shareholder agreement and, and place trust in yourself and don't take no for an answer.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Emotional support from family can empower you to overcome challenges and develop the essential grit you need and the show notes contain additional useful resources and links.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Please follow and rate us@podchaser.com designing successful startups.

Jothi Rosenberg:

Also, please share and like us on your social media channels.

Jothi Rosenberg:

This is Jothi Rosenberg saying TTFN Tata for now.

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