Everything we want in life comes through other people. The ability to have good conversations is how we share who we are, understand others and develop connection.

In this episode we talked about the elements of state and structure that lead to better conversations.

Welcome to honest talk about heartbreak, dating and relationships. Relationships so part as helping you navigate your path to happy ever after with your host.

Problems.

So good evening. We're here today for the art of conversation. So in the breakout rooms, we were talking about what made a conversation that made you feel connected and what was a conversation that made you feel disconnected, uncared for on, I think, is the vehicle for connection if we think that the ability to cooperate and collaborate is the human advantage, because as a species, we're not the fastest, we're not the strongest. We're not even the most adaptable, but we are the species that are able to through communication and conversation, we're able to band together and bond together.

And so I think conversation is something deeply human, and it's something that can make or break our ability to collaborate. So I think really, there's free key aspects to conversation. There's lots of things you can talk about in terms of conversation, but I think really, it's about how you come into the conversation. In past me touch people have been to Peru. I have seen when we talk about a model of what creates a good relationship from a bad relationship. And the line really is about one control that poor relationships or relationships of manipulation or control, and good relationships are where the two partners are free to be themselves.

Really. The key thing is vulnerability. Vulnerability creates empathy. Integrity creates trust, presence creates compassion, and kindness creates an atmosphere of atmosphere where they feel free. And so for me, in the same way, coming into a conversation is about the ability to share, the ability to really listen, the ability to say what you mean and mean what you say, the ability to be present to what the other person is saying. And the lines when you don't like what they're saying, or maybe someone makes an error in a conversation how you come into the conversation.

And that's probably the most saying conversations you've had that have been more negative in conversations. So who is dating, like on dating sites or having dates? And the one a lot of people talk about is the person who just talks about themselves, the person who has their list. And they were like, interviewing you to take off. There what whether you're going to match up and fulfill the role that they have for you. Whereas when we talk before, conversations that really go well are without a preset agenda, without someone trying to control it.

But it's more exploratory and it's more open to understand who you are, as opposed to try and impose what I believe on you. So there's something. So the second part, I think, is the dance, because I think there's how you come into the conversation, and then there's the dance between you of how that goes. And there's something really that I really liked that I heard from Tina. I'm going to Butcher his name, but Tick Nap name a Buddhist Monk. And he talked about compassionate listening. And he said the key to it was to listen with the sole purpose of helping the other person to empty.

And I think so many of us come into a conversation. We'd come in with an agenda we come in with, we're listening for our chance to say what we've got to say. And so we're not listening. And because we're so full of what we want out of the conversation is full of what we want from it to happen, from how it's going to go that we don't have the space to listen and we don't have the space to take it anymore. And it's like the old proverb, the old anecdote about the Buddhist Monk who was like someone asked him that was the secret to enlightenment.

And he said, Would you like some tea? And he said yes. And he just poured the tea in, and it was overflowing and pouring everywhere. And those four, I will show you, how can I teach you when you've got no no space to take in anything else? And in the same way in the conversation, if we're so far with what we're saying, we don't have the ability to listen and take in what someone else is saying. Oscar Tom Bailey, So it in a book. And his work is on deep listening.

And he points out that on average, we talk at 125 -25 words a minute, but we can listen or no, we think at 900 words a minute, so often there's a pressure in a conversation that like you feel that you want to get everything out. You want to get all your points and make it all across. But what you're saying is whatever you say in any conversation, there's always going to be things unsaid. You just you can't bring into the conversation because you're thinking is always going to outstrip the rate at which someone is speaking.

So he talks about there being five levels of listening, which is listening to yourself and what's going on inside you, listening to the content of what someone is saying, then it's listening to the context of what are they really talking about. And then it's listening for what's unsaid and listening for meaning. And so in order to do that, you've really got to be present and be able to let go of what's in your head to say, but be able to respond. So I talked about the lease to a relationship, a really vulnerability, integrity, presence and kindness.

And Joe Hudson done quite a bit of work on conversations, and he kind of structures conversations, and his framework is view, which is being vulnerable, impartial, having empathy and wonder.

So.

If you have that deep listening and that presence and all those kind of ingredients, vulnerability is really about share and who you are. In his words, impartial is about not having an agenda, like not making a judgment and in empathy is trying to refeel what someone else feels and wonder if he suggest is more a little bit deeper than curiosity in the moment, just trying to imagine, like, open your imagination.

So.

The dance is really about coming in without that agenda. But coming in with a presence and then being able to be in the moment and explore a conversation is really a space that opens up between two people, where you can look at what happens if you are really present, then the conversation shouldn't run out because there's always more layers of death. There's more understanding is, in essence, what a conversation is trying to understand each other. So I think about it as like a triangle, like that kind of triangle like that.

And so actually, maybe it's easier if I draw this. But so it's really about if you think of a triangle and there's, like, the tip of the iceberg that you share, like people who pass in the street, and maybe you say a couple of words to they would know that about you on that tip. So it's the superficial what people can see about you. Like how your day again, it's fine. And then it deepens to where you share more and more. And so with the people that you're really intimate with, you're going to share your inner world, like what life feels like for you, what's going on inside you, and how things really affect you.

So that's your trying. But then you also the person that you're in conversation with is also they have that same triangle. Now, if you think that there's a line going across that, which means that you only see the tip of someone else's triangle and a little bit more of yours. Now, as you share, someone gets to know more of yours, but also in there trying to understand it in their wonder in their curiosity. And then they're challenging because of the sparking of different perspectives, you're going to think differently about yourself.

And so you learn about yourself from conversations with others, because we experience life internally in how we feel it, which is one of the basic errors that we make in judgments for people is the fundamental attribution error that we judge ourselves differently from other people. Because we see ourselves internally, we feel what we feel. We accidentally we only see other people. Okay. So that's quite a lot on the content of conversations. But I think conversations are something that we have to experience.

So.

What we'll do is we're going to go into break out rings. So for ten minutes, five minutes each. But just going back to that quite a compassionate, compassionate listening from.

Canon.

And I remember the gist of what he said was to listen with the sole purpose of helping someone to empty themselves.

So.

All of us have a head field of stuff. Stuff has gone on and say stuff that we're worried about, stuff we're thinking about. So five minutes to be with someone, like, being present, being curious about how does that feel? Being vulnerable enough to share how we feel, what's going on for us, having the empathy to try and understand how much that feel like, because all of us, we can have different events and we'll feel them differently. So there's always something interesting in knowing how someone else is responding, how someone else is going, like, how their life is going, but also how it's affecting them.

Okay, so five minutes just really to empty. What's on your mind? How are you feeling about that? And what do you need to empty in order to have an open, vulnerable and, like, really be alive in a conversation?

I'm not sure when you say to empty. So.

If you were to write a stream of consciousness, what's on your head, whatever would come out, that's your conversation. This is what's on my mind. This is what got me. Because as soon as you say something, then that's gone, and then there's something else, and then there's something else. And the idea is to try and empty your mind in five minutes.

The custom man is there.

Well, the bad news is I've currently got you in a group of three who feels that they can empty their mind really quickly.

Yeah, me too.

I can make her.

Okay. I'm gonna swap he around.

Child just tempted. You know? Sandra, are you.

Just.

So the big question is, did Sandra empty her head?

Almost almost was closer than she actually stopped almost for 10 seconds to thinking, wow, I should never think about that so far. So we managed to get there.

And how stress are you, Janos?

Nothing actually enjoyed to see it that way. I think she is as well.

Okay, I'm good at summarizing. Okay, Rob, I summarized.

How do you feel?

I actually brought some logic in terms of, you know, you think of things and you think of them, but it's all on a plate. But in a sense, having to do that, I developed three streams of reality. You know, one stream was, okay, the present situation, in other words, rationalizing marriage and all of the things that go along with marriage. So there's lots of subs on an back heading and that stream. And then the next stream is developing a relationship. Under what circumstances, how that will work.

What a all of those various things. Then the other stream is how to move career wise, having learned the lessons of mixing marriage and career in the past, wanting to give priority to a relationship, how to balance that with career going forward and the realities of that. And then, of course, adding to that not as important or not as big, but it's where will I live out the rest of my days? Okay, so I think I managed to get major headings. So in summary, those streams, and it's a matter of how much energy one gives to how one rationalizes and all of the various things that come on each in each of those streams.

So it's not really so.

Yeah.

I think it's a little bit like journaling. If you have to write something down, once it's kind of out the or if you have to write an article or something, there's some kind of structure to it, and you have to use a framework like chronology of before, present, after or some other kind of way of structuring it. And that just helps all our thoughts. And one of the traps that we all can get into is we all make everything bigger in our head, and we're the only one that only ever happens to.

And when we actually can share that, other people can see it, and they have something there's certain universals that we all have.

It's funny that it made me a little bit nervous. I didn't actually go into line too much, because that's why I run out. But it made me a bit nervous. Actually. I'm not a big deal with people, and I think I lost a big deal with them. But then when it comes back to me is at all, I feel pretty vulnerable with people generally. But, yeah, it's kind of a such thing.

I always ask people really difficult questions, and then when they say, what about you? Oh, that's a tough question to the question.

The question.

Another question?

Yes. A little bit like, Nicole, I'm too conscious of the time, and they're conscious of the time when I'm speaking, even when I'm speaking, because I like it to be kind of balanced. And so I want to get as much as possible. Like you said earlier, you want to get everything in. So it's not relaxed. It's not really relaxed unless it survey spontaneous, kind of like what you're doing now, raise your hand, start talking. You've had a bit of time to think, but when you're having a conversation, you're quite conscious of the other person.

And also, like I was saying in my reason, the conversations that I've become a little bit of a warrior, because before, I used to be such a good listener, because I love to connect. And now I feel very irritated. If somebody just wants to talk about themselves and they have no interest in me, I actually want to tell the conversation. Now I've become like this. I used to be over the top the other way before. And then I realized that the people who were selfish and they were just at an agenda just to.

Mmm. And I decided for people who buy yourself, don't use my energy anymore. I'm just not interested. But places like this, it's just wonderful because everybody is listening. If somebody listens, I can be there forever. But most people, I find not even just in conversation. In places, everything is very commercial. It's time, and I'm projecting. Maybe I'm projecting, but that's the kind of experience I've had, and maybe it's in my head, it's in my mind. And now I'm manifesting this. It's possible as well. I'm thinking about all these things, but this is how I feel about conversations.

So even now, I'm really happy to express and I was talking about someone recently that I enjoy this group. And it's just so nice, because when I'm expressing, I'm learning so much about myself, like you were saying earlier, but I'm still very conscious, you know, I got to stop talking now because everybody has a chance, so I don't know how to deal with that. And it's just not in conversation. I visited a friend recently, and again, I'm just too conscious about other people. I'm not comfortable with myself, really.

I don't know how to deal with that.

That brings me quite lately because we've only come two of the three things so far, haven't we? So that brings me to the third part, which I think is ingredients.

Yeah.

No, my only save us. It's actually trigger me something we all have in that stage. One we all have in that stage when we want to share too much. But it's kind of a journey. You all have to go through that in order to get our tank a little bit empty or see the lesson behind. In order to improve yourself, you will have at the next level, then you were able to list them and see thus, how is the people actually acting? And that's normal. We all get to that level sometimes, and you will have after the next level, then you don't even need to listen people.

You can already see the outer their behavior, and you can easier communicate with them with the silent power. Honestly, when you reach that level, when you got the silence power. Wow. You don't need to say a word. You just look at another person. I and you know what will happen. That the level of the connections.

Thank you for that. That reminds me of something. Okay. Okay. So one of the things of conversations is so we take the first thing is how you turn up. The second is the dance. But the third is ingredients, like a meal. You can make a dinner in the quality of the dinner is going to depend on the ingredients, and it's going to depend on the ingredients, like the quality of the ingredients, the quantity of the ingredients, the variety, and then how you put them together. What I've got here is while you're having the conversation in it took me about ten minutes to be up to do that level of two triangles.

So what we've got here is where I talked about the triangles is kind of like you and the triangles of them. And overlaying on this Dunbar's numbers. Dunbar's numbers are the idea of how much, how many people we can connect with biologically. We're built as caveman. So we had a very small circle. And for most of our civilization, we've lived in villages of about 150. So Dunbar did some research, and he found that people could cope with about five really intimate relationships. So lovers, family, really close friends, about 15 to 25 really close friendships, about 150 people.

And so the way that we do that is by sharing more and more. So you get some self disclosure. What really bonds humans is self disclosure. So if you first meet someone, like, on a dating app or whatever, people don't give you so much attention. They're not that interested because they don't know you. You don't mean anything to them. So I think the ability to wrap up, like, give a taste of who you are in 30 seconds is the way that you build connection with someone, whether it's online dating or whether it's a speed dating or whatever.

But being able to encapsulate something deep and true about who you are in 30 seconds is a way of them getting a taste of are you someone who they'd be interested in finding out more and going any deeper, people that you recognize will give you a little bit more time. And so you've got maybe three minutes. People like friends, you can probably have a half hour conversation, and then people you really intimate with, you're going to go deeper, and it's going to be a three hour conversation.

So in essence, these are really the same can be the same topic, but it's level of debt and the level of the level of conversation and how much you're going to share of yourself that's involved in that. So I've been reading quite a bit on conversations. A lot of it was all the same stuff is basically come in, listen. And but I think it was the best book. In other words, the book, the way it be at best, is the kind of thing that we would do.

And that was a good talk by Daniel Tillman. And I'm just going to share with you this. He has a conversation operating system, canvas. And so he comes from a design background. And so he's talking about designing conversations. He talks about the ingredients, like he doesn't talk about ingredients. He talked about what are the dynamics within a conversation. And since the people, the diversity, like who's involved. It talks about the invitation initiation. How did the conversation start? What's the power dynamics and the permission. So if it's a boss and employee, if it's subordinate, or if it's equals, it's going to change the dynamics of the conversation, the ability to be silent, and the ability of how you take turns.

Like how you have the conversation. Because we have conversations on Zoom. When we have conversations in real life, we have conversations over email. So of all of those environmental factors set the conversation. Like I've seen, if you look at social media channels, Twitter is people talk about that being like the water cooler where people will just chat quickly. Facebook is like friends. Instagram is more visual, like a little bit more superficial or visual, and LinkedIn is more professional talk. And even if you have a conversation.

So even, like, if you're on a date, whether you're in a cinema or a bowling alley or a romantic restaurant, is going to change the dynamics of the conversation. So then there's the cadence and the rhythm of, like to be really there for someone to be curious, to be open is to have a really slow rhythm. And cadence is to really slow things down and Zoom in on how someone's feeling. But sometimes we just want to cover a lot of ground, and it's more about speeding up and looking at the big picture.

So then he's talking about trading and narrative, like, so, like the frames that we use before, during, after those kind of things, golden agreements, like agendas that people come in, and the ability to repair errors. So what it really depends on is really knowing yourself, because in order to relate to another person, you need to have a deep understanding of yourself.

So.

Knowing what you're about. So one of the ways of finding out about yourself is from conversation, but also the depth to which you know yourself. It's going to determine the depth that you can go to in the conversation. And so all of that goes back to the vulnerability. It goes back to the integrity, the wonder and the presence. And then in terms of ingredients, there's also federal Eldan created as a historian professor at Oxford University, and he realized that perspectives are really what matter, and sharing perspectives can open people's minds.

And so he created that the Oxford Mus, which was giving people a menu of conversation so that they would have, like, a dinner menu. And while they have dinner, they prepared with someone and have a conversational menu as well. How our conversation goes is what you bring to it, the presence that you like, your awareness in the conversation, like your ability to dance, and also what you can bring in terms of what's fresh to the conversation. So even within a relationship, sometimes couples can get style because they're not bringing anything new.

And so a couple that are too much in each other's pocket, and maybe you don't have any independence. They don't have anything to introduce new into the relationship. Okay, so does that make sense? Or any questions? Any thoughts?

Comments I have something about that. Actually, Rob is last year I had a new operation manager, and she told me, like, if you don't know what you want, how you want me to know what you want. And that's so bloody true. I didn't know exactly. I want to be in the higher position. So I show for her after IDE direction plan. And actually, I was more clear. I had more clear visions, but I always thought I thought about. But soon as when I got written down, actually start doing action behind.

Sometimes we just all the time thinking about in our mind about these things. I see when you writing down, you actually start manifesting. That's how our mind working. Because I see our memories. Our Masters. Is that's written? I have to do it. That's no more excuses. There's no more anymore. Like, oh, yeah, it will be. It will be. So I start doing actions. And guess what? Since that time, I'm not just respecting myself more. They do respecting me more because I'm respecting myself. And so often we're not respecting ourselves.

And that's why we can't communicate that to other people. Because I learn on that stage, my plate is full. When I say for you, yes, I have to say for myself, no. So guess what? What I get from this as well? If something what is good for me? Great. So I'm not pleasing anymore people. Look, you need to offer something as well for me. If you want something from me, my time, my energy, you have to give me something what actually benefit for me as well.

And that's when my grow and start more. That's when I start understanding myself more. Before I was just listening their things and I was creating their life. But actually, I wasn't any more creator of my life because I was always trying to solve their problems. I always trying to extinguished their problems. So, like, I was extinguisher manager. You know what's happened? People all the time, they find another problem and another problem. Another problem, and I rise. Fuck me. You wasting my time and my energy. It's your problem.

If you've got the problem with me, not mine.

I'm interested. Who else is how their conversation has really changed?

I.

Say my anus was talking about that there is a change in that challenge that brought clarity. Did you receive on it?

Since I found out about my boundaries, which was a few months ago, only I learned about boundaries, which I never knew off. And then I just put them into practice. And that came big time in conversation. And I was observing everything. That what made me feel the other person. And as soon as I didn't like this feeling about what they were saying, where they were trying for me to do or just for me to just hear them and for them to take my energy, I just completely get it.

And I was really, really strong with it. And, yes, I seem to have changed from that one. Or no, I speak differently now. And then I did a few months ago, for sure, even a few weeks ago, actually.

So, yeah, for sure.

Thank you, Carl.

I think one conversation that revolutionized my life was as at the very end of my teens at 19, I wasn't really sure what to do with my life. Education hasn't quite gone the way that I thought. So I sort of plan to join the military and essentially kill myself or other people. I was fortunate enough that my next on Habor was actually RAF. And he sat me down and he said, no, no, this is not what you think. This is what happens. And also, he had become unwell.

And yet you think, like war heroes get taken care of. And now he was left sick Gulf War syndrome, which eventually he did get paid back for, but was denied initially. And I just thought, wow, I had no idea. I just thought I was going to go out there and be a brave little soldier. And I'd be commended. And I'd be looked after. And everybody would say thank you for your service. So he kind of saved me from that. And he also taught me a few things about Naturopathy and the state of food politics and some geopolitics and just that one kind act and bearing in mind, I was 19 years old, and I like to collect records.

So I wasn't the most quiet neighbor you could imagine that that act of kindness changed my life forever. And I still haven't turned down the music yet. Yeah. Really change things.

So that really what comes to mind when an was sharing that. And is the idea that sometimes conversations are about challenge and about opening us up. It's a possibility, because sometimes we this is one of the reasons why it's so important to be open in conversation. Because if we don't like if we go in, what humans tend to do is we have this idea of what we want. And we're like, this is it. But actually, if you look at most people who achieve what they want, it was never a straight line.

And what they originally thought they wanted was never what they actually got. Like if they have got what they really wanted, originally, it would have been lesser than what they had because you evolve through the challenge. So there's a challenge. And then there's the focusing of making the decision. So there's, like, opening up to opportunities. And then there's closing and focusing to that. And then there's the acceptance of who you are, which enables you to move forward. Okay. So so there's something. And again, in the minute, Sandra.

There'S.

People. Yes, there are important conversations which tend to sometimes create a drastic change in your life, oftentimes based on positive thoughts that have been have been imparted to you. However, the things that are coming to my mind now are the negative conversations or the negative talks, not even conversations so much as being talked to. That created my backbone by giving me the result to say no, damn it. After all, I don't believe in that. I don't agree, and I'm not going to do that. So I think that people trying to put you in a box or trying to redefine who you should be or ought to be or what you can be can also spur you on to actually doing the opposite, you know, oh, you should be a lady doing this and blah, blah, blah.

You should be a nice, you know, whatever. Find a nice office job. Do that. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You're breaking all the boundaries. You're all to all of these fellows out do this, rambunctious, whatever. What kind of a career can you have? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Oh, you shouldn't be seen with these kinds of people because they're the wrong sort. You must talk to those people. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So in other words, those negative things that narrow your world and you have to make the decision that Nope, my world will not be circumscribed by these narrow definitions of who you can be and hope to be.

So I think there is some positive that can be taken from when people pile all kind of negative crap on top of your head as well. You decide not to invite that.

So what happened? It was like they painted the picture that you really want.

Or yeah, I just fought against everything that they just prescribed that I should be because all of that comes, I mean, applied for my girls school, and that was there in ladies out to behave like I had no choice. You get attention if you didn't behave properly, you know, ladies had to a certain your skirt had to be a certain length. Oh, you had to behave. And oh, yes and no, the gentleman had to disappear down the him before you dare come through the front door. But nonetheless, forget all of that.

But it's that kind of way. You get mixed messages also, and you have to find a way to decide what message is actually right for you. Because here I would have a family of women and men who would be telling me, you cannot do this. You cannot do that. You are now the family, the family or the reputation with this and whatever. And you are not this. And you cannot seem to be doing that. I am saying, but that's not in my head. I'm saying, but that's not right.

Those things are not right. So I am not going to I'm not going to do that because I know, it's not right. It's based on prejudice. It's based on old thinking about your role. I remember once my mother said to me, and the Bible says, the man is the head of house. I'm is that. That is, after all, no way. No, that's not. I was. And he or she is telling me that. But at the same time, she was the one who had the bank book, you know, and the bank accounts and whatever, and doing those kinds of things and everything was about the beliefs of her family.

So she was running things, but at the same time, telling me that I must be subservient, you know, that kind of mixed message. And I'm saying, hell, no, it's not happening. I don't need what I see from all of my family is not what you're telling me. And so I'm going to do what I see you doing, which is to be dominant, to know yourself and to call the shots, as you see. Don't tell me to be so servant. So that's. Yeah, I'm rambling. But that's it.

Really.

Thank you, an.

Yeah. No, Sandra, how she said all these is actually remind me last year when I came across with Italian who was saying the bullshit truths, you know, like, really, he start asking the parents why. Actually, we ask the Legion. We're not allowed to eat beef. And the mother said, Go out and search the answer for yourself. She didn't keep the answer. And that's the real challenge. That's when we do teaching somebody very well, that's when we supporting. And you know, what I learned with that is to self realizations without taking action behind our own self talk.

Because, Sandra, we all have in self talk. That's not other things to us. We're creating that self talk insight with self sabotaging, our self insight. We're not letting ourselves to do the things we're not nothing to be ourselves because we think what the others think. Guess what? I don't give a shit about. You know what my mom teach me? That's, like, opinion, like everybody to having, like, an asshole is just sometimes the wind coming through. That nothing else. It's no, nothing like a foundation behind it's.

Just a kind of talk from somebody to somebody to somebody. It's never been really true. Or maybe just simply not fit for you. You know, we all want to be unique. What we do to be unique. Usually we do to be average because that's what we do. Like to average people. If I want to be unique, I do that. 1% what nobody else do not like the 90 10% were due in that moment because that makes you unique when you do stand against the standards. If you want to be unique, do something hard to be unique, not opposite, like everybody has to.

Okay, so just to summarize what we've covered today, we talked about the free aspects of conversation being how you come to the conversation in terms of being vulnerable, being present, having integrity, being impartial, having wonder or curiosity and kindness. We talked about the dance, and particularly the listening.

Of.

Listening to allow someone to empty themselves of listening the five levels of listening, listening to yourself, but then listening to content, context, what's unsaid and the meaning and the ingredients, the amount that we're willing to share, the honesty that we have and helping each other explore. What is it like from your perspective and all of that presupposes that we let go of the judgment that has been spoken of that Sandra talked about. There's this judgment that wasn't true. And when someone says something that you know, they're not living up to, we all have a response to that.

When there's a standard that's ascribed to us that we know isn't really true, doesn't hold up, doesn't have the foundation. We're not really going to respond to that. Okay, so what we're going to do, we're going to go and break that Ridge for another conversation. But the first 30 seconds is non verbal conversation. So this is an mentioned about eye contact. So to just hold eye contact for 30 seconds with another person. So if everyone when we go in the breakout range, if everyone can, if possible, be on video, 30 seconds to hold eye contact to the present and just recognize what you feel and what happens after 30 seconds.

Okay. Right. That's all we'll do is we'll do eye contact, and then we'll come back. Okay. So then let me just adjust. So there's no need for conversation. You're just present purely present, trying to pick up from the other person what they feel, recognizing what you feel. Okay.

Sorry.

I can't be on a car on. The camera on, but I can observe.

Yeah.

No worries. I've just adjusted so that you're going to be in a room.

It's free.

Yeah. If you play the part, there's still something for you in some of that feel.

Thank you.

Okay. And we'll be back in. Okay. So we're gonna do. Yeah. So that's it the whole time you're there, and then I'll bring you straight back. So don't click the thing to come back early. Just stay in. How is that much more intense?

And.

Yeah, the Erie.

The Erie was.

I wonder if I mention it. Yeah.

There's some science about four minutes. It's like, is it 32 questions or something to fall in love to? And one of the things they suggest is four minutes just staring into each other's eyes just because of the vulnerability that creates.

But.

Yeah, it's it's quite frightening, isn't it? And people move to try and stop the silence.

I don't think I stopped in.

I.

Saw I was captivated, but I couldn't get enough of looking now, since he has spoken to nouns before, but she didn't to her camera. When I saw her face, I was in. Oh, then I didn't have my glasses on because I wanted her to see my eyes, so then I couldn't really see her. So I put my glasses on, and it was completely different. Then I looked at myself to see how I would feel about myself. I had no interest in myself. And this time she smiled.

My heart lifted. And then iphone Ellen was also on the call. So I was looking at iphone Ellen just to see how I felt. And actually, I could feel her present. But it was no way as powerful as looking at really amazing.

I.

Remember doing this activity in inner space in Manchester, and I got partnered with a lady, and she was looking at me M e. Right. And she burst out crying half way through.

So I was hugging her.

In the end, it was like it was quite emotional for her.

Yeah. It's something that you don't normally do. And we have the call about fidget. We have these displacement things that we sometimes we do that with a conversation. A conversation gets to intense, and so we'll throw something else will deflect so that we don't have to feel that. Okay.

So.

Now try with with a conversation. So same thing. But this time we're going to use one of the Oxford Muse questions is, do you find it easier to forgive or forget? Okay, so when I open up, the break out rings. And. Yeah. So that's the starting point. We're bringing. All the things have been vulnerable. We've been impartial of having integrity present. All of those things make the conversation one of dance. I dance between you. And so let me we'll see if it work with five. So we've got a new setup.

Okay. So the question is, do you find it easier to figure or forget? That's the starting point. You can go wherever you want.

I think we were pretty much on the same page and how we see things. You know what? I've actually forgotten what the actual original question was. My head just come back.

In the next week.

What that one sorry for? Yeah. I think it's the forgetting bit that we were sort of a it was all about and the definition that people will hold of that less forgiving bit, actually, because I think that just forgive someone. I think I feel like the old definition mission and possibly came from religious, from religion. It's kind of like if someone does you wrong, letting them off the hook type thing, and it's more to alleviate and liberate them than anything. But for me, I sort of feel it's much more about not a selfish thing, but if I can, if I can liberate, I'm trying to say, but trying to resolve the situation for within myself as well.

And if they're prepared to meet me on a level of respect and boundaries going forward, we can go forward. If not, then it's kind of like a lesson that they need to learn as well. And I'm not being particularly articulate there.

It's a now in the conversation I was having in let me think of how my understanding of forgiveness evolved from. Yeah, that kind of religious idea where I grew up in a Catholic upbringing, thinking that Jesus was a do gooder. It was like, I will do good for everyone else. And it just seemed like a week source of missive type of thing to growing up. I grew up in an all boys school. So if you have all boys, it's all about vitamin status of like, you can't let because if you're the one forgiving and whatever, that's where the Christian feeling seems weak because people will take advantage.

And so part of that was watching gangs to films and rings where you couldn't forgive, because if you forgive, it's a sign of weakness where people will take advantage and there has to be a consequence to an action. To the the kind of things are really recognizing that forgiveness is for yourself because you can like, if someone starts coming, there's the old man thing of walking across the water, and someone says, one month says to the other, like, you did this and you did this. And I said, yeah, but I did this, like, over here, and I let it go and you are still carrying it.

And then I can't remember the other, like, the profile of you poison yourself by the thought of not forgiving. And even if we look from a biological perspective, it's you that has the card store running through your system, it's you that incurs the damage from not forgiving.

So.

There'S kind of layers of, I think, in conversation, you can go back from what the origins and the nearness of your thinking has been. So thank you for that.

Anyone else or we definitely the forgiveness. It's more about the inner calmness. It's more for myself, feel it after. It's okay to be a human being. But that's not okay to continuously doing that stress more like a lesson. Don't do it that again. And I telling the people, look, I might even know that's my boundary. But as the line this time, I'm telling you that's a play. You did it first time that if you continuously doing that, I remove you from my life. That simple. And it's more for my self respect for my inner can keep it that up.

I do it. The ten to seeing the other one is bad because there is no good and badness in life. It's just different perspectives.

Thank you so, Casandra.

For my own Salvation. But it's also I realized from listening to on on that because we create all the situation the only way that I can ask for business. It's really because I've caused the harm myself. I've attracted that experience, and I'm actually sorry that I've made them. So I've made them go through that in order to help me, and they are hurting themselves. So I'm asking them to forgive me because, of course, then the discomfort of giving me that lesson. But honestly, I don't forgive very easily.

And I have to ask Jesus to help me and to do it for me most of the time because I realize that I'm still triggered I haven't really forgiven. Even though I try really, really hard, it's very difficult to really forgive me. I make it easier that way because I take responsibility. And I said, well, so then it's easier for me to ask, but I know that they come around again and they trigger me again, so I'm not definitely not forgiven them. So then when I was listening to the Jesus something, it does say, if you can't wait, asked me to do it.

And so I ask him, and I'm more relieved that way.

Thank you, Sandra. Then, Carl.

The issue of forgetting, I think that we are the sum of our experiences. And to say that something that is of such critical importance and of such a major impact in your life that you could forget to me, sounds like selective amnesia and doing yourself a disservice because you are the sum total of your experiences, and that is an experience that will inform and help you to define your ongoing journey in life and forgetting. To me, it should not even be a part of that conversation. It really should be about forgiveness, resolution and how to build getting.

I think something that is not helpful to suggest that we should forget because it's all part and part of who we are.

Okay.

So.

It is the question. So there's a lot to explore in that. And we talked about in our conversation. We talked about forgiving and forgetting and the dynamics. But what I'm interested in as well is in that question. What was it like to have that conversation where you've got to explore with someone?

Actually, I was interested because I think Nicole and I were moving along the same pathway. So there wasn't a conflict. In other words, we didn't have to stop to try to rationalize what we were, what we're saying. We could we found ourselves not in our heads, in agreement and figuring out, yes, you can see it and adding different things, because when Nicole is talking about going back to religion, the whole concept of forgiveness and it's true. I agree with her. And I think it's different when you've had some experiences that have really shuttered you to draw in terms of how you've dealt with it, because I was explaining to her that I don't hate my husband.

I can't forget the things that he's done. And I can't also ignore that there are issues that I am partially responsible for in certain respects. So I'm not taking myself out of it. But nonetheless, I know that for myself, I need to be able to see him, which I can because I have resolved. I can see him and have no sense of anger, and I wish him well. And if that forgiveness, then that forgiveness, because it means that, as Yano said, it's about you, it's about the internal sense of self and getting back to a sense of equilibrium balance.

But in terms of my feelings, and I think that I am at that point where I can see I can talk to him. Hello, blah, blah, blah. We talk about something without me having any kind of anger, but I can't, but I'll never forget it because it informs my way forward.

Yeah. In terms of your agreement, as your conversation was very cordial along the same lines. So I think there's some conversation because we're talking about conversations. So like the matter of the conversation rather than the details here, and I'm interested in. So we've had some instances where there's been a challenge which is open for, and then your conversation was in agreement, which what does that give you more conviction? Does it give you more confidence? And is there a danger in in a conversation where you agree with someone, you know, like group think, where, as in bad decisions are made by groups who are too similar with the lack of diversity of everything and diversity of opinion?

So I'm just wondering, in your instance, there of your conversation, is it a conference which gives you the conviction to move on, or is there a danger of it being, you know what? Some friends just yeah. Yeah, I agree. You're right. I don't know if you have any thoughts on how that felt.

I think because of the time frame we can't really see, because one needs to explore it a little bit in more detail, because, for example, when you start talking about the influence of the old religious texts and way of being and what you were taught and you start to unpick that as you go forward in life, there are other influences that also help to and as you're saying, group thing, friends, family pressure for the sake of the marriage, you need to forgive and move on. And those kinds of things, I think those would kind of come out as you have more of a conversation.

And it may be that I could probably say no on a particular point. No, I don't agree with you there because of my experience here. So there is a possibility for more diverse inputs to become a part of the conversation. But in general, because we're talking in generalities, at this point, we are in agreement. We feed in a similar way. But I think there would be nuances based on our individual experiences that would come to the fore. And I think we are I'm not averse to hearing somebody else's experiences because it enriches the conversation or the views that you can have about a particular subject, you know, and a value experience.

If you're talking from an experience that you have, then it's no less valid than mine. So put it on the table.

I think you call.

Well, that was interesting to hear Sandra talk about that. We shouldn't forget. And Rob, you are talking about Mafia films and one of their key phrases, isn't it? I forget about it. And I think that's quite a powerful thing. What I learned from the discussion earlier was that you can forgive, which means allowance saying, okay, it's okay that you did that. But forgetting, I guess that's a process of having enough reason or justification. So like Sandra was saying, in marriage, there was for the sake of the marriage, and sometimes it can be for the sake of family.

Okay, I'll forget it, but I won't forgive even. But the discussion I had in the breakout room as well, is that real? Is that actually genuine? I think if we go back to when we were having eye contact in private earlier, it's there's something that happens. There some level of connection, something triggers, something goes off, something stirs and changes in you. And I think that when we have conflict or reason not to forgive, this is all intellectualized in terms of how we framed it, how we set this up, how we created this boundary am barrier.

And yet really, you know, our essence, we want to connect and we enjoy connectivity and love and getting along. So what is another she said something, and it made me realize that not dealing with things is a form of forgetting, willful ignorant, not actually communicating and getting to that thing. And even if you have that conversation, it is still that ability to talk it and discuss it, not lose your temper, not take a step up or get frustrated because the other person is not seeing it your way.

I.

Think even in some recent dynamics, I've discovered people I feel have ran from situations instead of humanely talking about things, and that is a lack of capacity.

So.

What am I getting at? Just as I drop the mic because I don't want to go in phases, which is that when we decide not to forgive, it's emotionally driven. You know, that's what it boils down to and how we perceive this will hurt or affect us in some way. Whereas even if you don't decide to be friends, lovers, business partners, gym buddies, whatever it may be. But that discussion can still happen. And then there's understanding for the next time. But when we run or we set up barriers and we build up our walls, we don't get anywhere, and we don't grow as people.

We don't learn until we do. So it just depends. Really, when we talk about relationships is not just about romantic ones, it's about every type of relationship. And yeah, start.

Were thinking that I think we talk a lot about romantic relationships, but really the same dynamics. Relationship, it's a bit relationship or connection is really fractal in that we have a connection with life. We have a connection with ourselves, we have a connection with others. And in this societal I was in conflict at a group level or a national level, and it's all the same dynamics and in the same way that we deflect from connection in a conversation, we deflect in relationships and we deflect. If you really look at politics, it's really the problems we have, like national dare, NHS.

All that stuff is because of people won't vote for the person that will make the decisions to politicians, avoid the big issues, passing the bark, which is exactly the same as the reason why relationships have difficulties, which is the same as why we have personal difficulties. So when you look at the personal with, like, our way, our health, our finances, how we spend our time, all of that, kind of like how we manage our to find all that kind of thing is the same as everything.

So, yeah, there's some good points and made their car. Thank you. Thank you, everyone, for being here and taking part in this group conversation about conversations. Does anyone have any thoughts? Anything. We haven't covered anything we have covered that resonated or any thoughts about conversations. Before we go.

Do you recommend any book or anything like that website?

Yes. Specifically for what I.

Guess for conversation.

Okay. I would look at Joe Hudson's View podcast where he goes, he's got the View framework, vulnerable and like the first episode is vulnerable. Second is partial and empathy. He's really good at coming to the conversation. Good Talk by Daniel Tillman has more of a structure where he talks about designing conversations and Oscar Trumble for deep listening. And also Diana, Diana, Michele Holton. She wrote Some other people Compassionate conversations.

I think I'm now earlier in the of course, you got chart we talked about one of the boxes was about the speed at which the conversation would take place, speeding up or slowing down. Yeah. Yes. That whole cadence and rhythm. I think that's something that we don't we don't pay much attention to. And the whole issue of modulation during a conversation.

And.

It'S a dance. Once again, it's a dance. It has its own beat and its own rhythm. If you're out of tune, out of sing, you sometimes read the signals incorrectly. And I think we tend to think that a conversation is the spoken word, but it's everything else that goes along, just like that exercise that you did with looking into somebody's eyes that changes a conversation of the words that are being said have a different meaning. I'm looking over your shoulder versus if I'm looking directly in your eyes or I'm just not looking at you to the energy that comes from you.

All of those things. And Unfortunately, I think some of us are better at bringing the package together and let it be in sync than others are. And some of us are better reading the signals than others are. And sometimes the conversation. Don't worry. The intention is there that it should work, but it doesn't work because the elements are just out of alignment, and some of it is learned behavior. I don't think we should give up on that misalignment, but I think we all have to sort of look at ourselves and look at what's happening and learn how to get ourselves.

One car be dancing, soca music, and you're actually doing the Viennese was the other one is. I mean, they're just not speaking the same language. So it's how do we get how do we get in sync so that when we have a conversation in all its elements?

Well, I think we done.

It just makes it Fuller.

It's really about why are we done is because we're already filled with what we want to say. We've already come with an agenda with something, what we want out of it. And I think if you really look at the best conversations, you didn't know what you got out of, it was not something that you could have ordered. So we go into conversations as if it's McDonald's. And if I press these, do this, do this. Do this. I'll get this. And really the best conversations. You don't know what you're going to get out of it.

And it's exploratory. So what came to my mind? First of all, there is Daniel stolen talked about in the talk. He talked about Amanda Palmer. I've heard the name. I don't really know who she is.

But.

Apparently she came up with her husband. They were at dinner, and she just started she thought, what if, you know, like when you're in primary school and you pass notes to each other, and she just started writing her husband, and now and they started writing back, they have dinner conversations, like writing notes like children, because that's different budget changes the communication. But the real issue is that people come so much with what they want. And this is why I think dating is really difficult is because the conversations are people are already filled with what they want.

I'm just looking for this. I'm looking for this. I'm looking for this. I'm going to do someone if they got that. That. And I think I mean, recently when you look at like there was that tragedy of the Plymouth killer who just went and round page kill five people. And obviously, we do the details of it. But what I did catch it was he was putting on social media, like he was in in cell group of involuntary celebrate. So basically, he was frustrated because you're gonna get a girlfriend.

And there are so many men who are in, like, this red pill theory, and men can in their own way, because their approach to women is so filled with I want Miss response. I want her to sleep with me. I want her to love me. I want her to show me respect and admiration. But it's all about what I'm coming in with more. I want. And we talked about, like, you have to be open. You have to if there isn't space, you can't you know what we talked about that each one listening to me, you have to.

Like.

In human interaction, you can't go like, I want this because that becomes control and manipulation. It has to be. I want this. What do they want? And so it's really about aligning interests. We don't have to agree with everyone, but we have to align. And what that means is it's not necessarily in this one on the same wavelength, but looking at the context that's big enough that we can include and see where people fall to. So when we look at the levels of depression, anxiety and suicide, a lot of that is about a lack of connection.

And the lack of connection is because we're not open to the connection because we're so filled with what we want. And this is the thing of, like, Steve Jobs. When he first came out with the iphone and the ipod, he said, like most companies do, focus research. And Henry Ford said, if you don't ask people what they wanted, they'd asked for a faster horse. But he knew what they were really looking for was transportation. And it's because people are so literal and in the same way in relationships, we really don't know what we're looking for.

We need to be open to the experience. And then when we have the experience, we grow into what we know.

So.

Yeah, it's that ability to be in the conversation without being too tied to our agenda. It's kind of rambling on Nicole.

I.

Think mine probably ties into that quite well, actually, in that I think people often need to drop assumptions as well, assuming where someone's going with something, where they come from the perspective and that kind of thing, just being there, listening, trying to give an understanding. I think people have seen too much often. I know that when I'm talking to people sort of building up to something and just straight away, it's like, no, that's not what I'm saying in the outside thing. Yeah. But I think I think it probably comes under.

I don't know. I'm guessing past experiences that don't necessarily compare me to every other woman that you spoke to something or who was the person of the circumstance, because it might not be where I'm coming from, but also with the agenda that you can come into it with your own agenda or what you think you want to hear from that person. And that kind of thing, yes.

It's a lot of people talk about dating other time wasters. And what I really mean by time wasters is someone because they jumped to a consideration, like, you know, like, their nuts there that without really knowing the details of it.

Actually.

Now, when you said all this, I came something to my mind all these red things. This is not generally for the men's, just true. This is generally for the humankind. It means when somebody say no for them, people become so rude, sometimes abusive, present full. I just recently experienced in that because I'm working in hospitality and we go through about hell of the difficulties. But people in the door, they keep abusive. They're telling me after 20 years how to do my job, you know, because I'm saying I can't fit them in now almost working.

Let see, with my sickness of my arms, they don't need to know that shit. But guess what? There was effusive in the door because I said no and people are just not realized when somebody say no. And I can't imagine how the womans go through about that when they actually rejecting one man's. I have situations where men went for us, and that's why they are afraid to say no physically, like simply just saying no because they afraid how they react for that. And honestly, when I see these days, the people who are reacting, wow, it took me we are rude and abusive with others just because it said no.

We don't even know the reason why.

I think that for me, in customer service roles, a level of abuse can be had because the people are not well enough trained. They're giving you robotic answers. And they're also lying past the time that you have a right to speak to a manager to resolve a query, quite frankly. And they'll be obstinate and say no pretty much like a bouncer does at a nightclub. If they want to, they won't let you in. It's not their venue that they have some level of power, but they're just blocking you and they misuse that.

So it can also be yeah, people can get abusive and but that's because somebody is essentially trolling them. They're being obstinate. They're blocking without you cause and reason purely because they're not well enough trained or they don't actually have the power to do that.

That's not all. I'm working 17 hours a day, 17 hours smash up as well being conserving 400 customers. I got my own limit as the physical human kind to be. And then I seen 400 times. I have to say no. Do you think after 400 times, can I say nicely when people are acting 400 times rudely? Do you think you can that much handle it? After 400 times, would you be handled if you approach 400 Forman and all of them will say no and telling you you are rubbish or whatever, you don't even know your job.

I'm taking a picture. I will make sure you fire tomorrow because that's how people being DC 17 hours.

Though, to be honest, that doesn't even really make sense. How do you even have a shower or anything? You're at work 17 hours a day.

Sometimes I am as the manager because I'm that my short staffed yesterday was only my duty manager and myself because seven people call sick because of the bloody self isolation. Seven. Ali, he was very close to close my restaurants, but I'm not allowed because my dear track to say no, you got 100 hours there. You can use that. So that's how I get treatment, you know? So how you wish to me after for the customer after 400, 700 times treating the same way, but similar happening. What I see people good from both side pressure Womens as well when they tried to sing yes or no for the men's.

And as far, the two worlds are completely different. One is a paid service hospitality, so you're effectively giving somebody money to look after you. And in a way of speaking, even if it's a telephone advisor at Amazon, they are there to ensure that you get access to their service and business. So there needs to be a level of courtesy. And if things go wrong, then individuals need to be trained well enough to be able to handle that because people are annoyed, pay for an experience or pay for service for the manager fire.

But they're not paying. They're not paying because I can't let them in. It just simply and they're not even paying. But can you imagine how they causing stress for my team if that's people coming in and similar what the ladies feel, why they saying for garments, never again, because that's how we are as the humans. Sometimes we are very badly behaving for other people who say no, who's not accomplishing our dream.

A lot of things that are basically I think what comes to mind when Car was talking is things I've experienced. For example, if you are that there's a software or you Cook some kind of customer support and they've been given scripts and you try and get someone's help and they just give you the script to go, no, no, I just said that and they just give you the same script, which is another way of trying to avoid.

I.

Think I'm not sure what comment, but I think that's a different type of customer service, but all of it is about all of it really is about not really not really connecting. It's about an avoiding connection. Because if you think about what makes customer service, it's about you get obviously. And I think there is a level of entitlement which creates this way that people think that they can treat people like I'm paying. So I can treat you like scum. But all of it is about the inability it's the inability to connect and part of what the industrial model once we moved to service business, what that became was you sell your personality for, like a general hospitality or if you're in some kind of service business, what your employer is trying to get your personality and sell that personality so that it's friends.

So it's kind of like that fake friendliness thing when you go into cold or something, they have a good day or supermarket or something. But that's so at the core of it, I think it's about we're not really, like, bad customer service is when we feel someone doesn't care. Like when we try, we call a support thing and they go, Well, okay. Well, have you tried it on? And you've already told them ten times that you've been through everything, but they've got this checklist, and what it is is you don't feel that someone is listening to you.

So.

I think there's two sides of it. There's the side that is talking about of these unreasonable people that come in so much. I want this. And like, he's joined the analogy to this is what women are facing on dating sites where there is so much pressure. They're overwhelmed by a popular woman with loads of messages, is overwhelmed that you can't keep up with the messages. And yet these men feel entitled to a response and to sex oftentimes. So it's about it's a childish, entice woman where we've been kind of tool that pay money or something like that entitles you to something.

And then it's all got mixed up with human, like when we sold our personalities. So it's kind of fake interaction. Sandra.

But one can also look at a man who has invited a woman out to say dinner, and because he has paid for the meal, you know, he expects certain services in return, and when he's not forthcoming, he's abusive. It's happened to me where, you know, it's like, so what did you expect? Was the question that was asked of me when I point blank refused, and it's somebody who ought to know better, you know, that's why I was out with them in the first place, because this was a person who was in a very responsible job and would have had a lot of people genuflecting to him.

He thought that it was his right to expect that of me for having invited me out to dinner. And then they become abusive and rude because you're not complaining.

What comes to mind when you say that is really the word I was grappling for is it the difference between what breaks connection is when we become transactional, and it's feeling that you can buy someone dinner and it entitles you to sleep with them. It's feeling that you are a customer. And so therefore you should be the red carpet should be laid out for you.

So.

Yeah, it's transactional. And the origins of it are really in slavery, which slavery is really that someone is less than we are. And there's this whole human orientation to a lot in the world so that we are slightly better than others.

I yeah, I feel that everything is transactional. It looks like everything is in every way, even when you're working or you're offering something. And so that's why. I mean, I feel really uncomfortable about this even if I'm going to go on a date, I'm thinking, okay, I need to pay for this. Is it going to be so expensive? But I'm already looking at the payment. I'm looking at the payment, and every time I have a communication in internal communication, and if somebody does something good for me automatically, I think, how much is that going to cost me in the future?

And it stops me from living. It literally stops me from wanting anything because I know there's a payment. It's like this. In our society, we have to pay for everything. If it's not right now, it's going to be next week or next year or with something else. It's impossible to live like this, but that's how I really feel.

Well, that's horrible.

I could never I couldn't think that way. It was interesting when you did say everything's transactional, because the root of the word relationship. I always think of the word relay, like a relay race with a bat on what goes backwards and forwards.

So.

Without being too semantical, it is what goes backwards. And that's the form of transaction, isn't it? I haven't looked up the entire dictionary definition of transaction, but I guess trans movement, action, something like that. So with this in mind, do we have to set Robert, you saying that we shouldn't have principles and some level of reasonable, reasonable expectations about transactions, meaning that should we go on a date and let somebody spit in our face and say, oh, it's okay. I don't have any expectations here going to let it unfold.

I mean, at what point do we just have such an openness? Whereas what if we have a series of dates and none of them are really having any positive effectiveness? I'm not sure if I am. I being clear here. And what I'm saying is you're saying that we shouldn't come in with prerequisites, but I actually feel that doesn't experience give us those in a good way. Not so much like Veronique. That's torture. I'm afraid I couldn't live that way. But, yeah. What were you saying, Rob?

Okay, so life is transaction. Relationships are transactional, but it's what's the transaction. So it's the depth of transaction, because in life there are currencies. So money is a currency. Attention is a currency. Status is a currency. Intelligence is a currency beauty as a currency. So what? We energy, health. These are all currencies. So what we're doing is we're exchanging one for for others. So we exchange time, energy for money when we go to work. So that's a transaction. So you don't go in and accept whatever someone gives you.

But you have those principles and values that you have are what determine where the interaction you have is going to fall. So you go in. That's how you navigate from what's important to you, from your values, those kinds of things. And that's where you determine where it goes. Because when you are open and I'm going to distinguish between a pure transaction and a so I'd say a pure transaction is one where you're open and you're just exploratory seeing what comes up. And so what happens then?

If you think of, like, what comes to mind when I'm trying to picture it is a landscape. And it's like where the water settles, wherever the water settles is like where it's going to fall. So you go into an interaction, a date and you see where it falls, and it may be here. And it's the nicest pool that fits in with your landscape. Or it may be just this muddy puddle that doesn't fit in without guarantee for into the analogy. The exploratory is, does it match your values?

Is there an alignment? Are you on the same wavelength? So that so that's what really the date is serving whereabouts you are. And do you like the person? Can you hear him? Right. So ten is the issue of transaction. A pure transaction is human transaction. I'm going to give you my time and my attention, and I'm going to get back something human, whereas when it's money or a dinner that's been bought, that's a man made currency. So connection is built with human, like pure human currency.

So if you're talking about primary so attention, energy, love, affection, respect their pure human currencies. Now, if you get to say someone like he's got a sugar Daddy relationship, someone who's in a relationship for the money, you mixing currencies. So you've got pure human currencies of wanting, love, affection, that kind of thing in exchange for money. If I'm going to buy you dinner and get sex, that you've mixed currencies. So you're looking for a pure human currency that you've bought in the same way, like service, hospitality industry is.

So it's kind of Marxist sociologists talked about what's happened in service is, you know, like, when you go into where is it? They say the supermarkets and the Americas have a nice day to everyone, and it's kind of fake. And so what's happened is the people who tell sells when how are you How's your day going is fake. And you know, it's fake because they don't care about you. And they just list the preamble to their pitch. And so what happened is they have commercialized personality and connection, and it comes across as fake because it's a mixed method.

It's a mixed transaction. Does that make sense?

It is true.

And also, I think you can learn to pick up from someone on a date, whether they're really interested in having a conversation to get to know you, rather than they are going through a ritual to get to the endpoint of the reward that they expect in return for an evening spent listening to you and giving you all of whatever. Okay. And yeah, now it's true. And you're being indulged. You can tell when somebody is having an evening and they're actually enjoying your company for what it's worth versus one that is performing a ritual for the conquest, so to speak, at the end of the day.

And you can tell and what comes to mind. There is also in dating. There's all these pickup artists of do this, do this, do this, do this to get a girl. And yes. So what happens is again, if you have a fake relationship because you've created this persona which can get the girl, but what's behind it. So I really like Neil Strauss journey of talking about how in the game he talked about how he was able to go from unconfident to get girls. And then the true.

If you talked about the dark side of that and what do you do when you've got them and how it's not fulfilling it, it's not enough.

Yeah. Basically, what makes me now this realize we are like to be fixed when we are focusing too much in the enter results be fixated. So like somebody describe it for me like that. You got five doors, four of them open, only one of them closed. What you will do, you will fix it, which is close. Guess what. So plenty of the woman behind those doors who's waiting for you, but you're just only focusing on it, but you can't get it and you get frustrated. And that's how we do try to do with other people as well.

What we do this actually creating. We're making people feel like we wanted them to change the way, how we want it. We put them in the cage, we put them in the box. So why this relation never will work. Because you're not accepted the person who they are. You've got these ideal visions. How should be ideal partner. Guess what? There is no bloody ideal partner. You create it. As I keep saying, there is no good stuff. You create them, you make them to work together. There is a long ten journey, but we all want straight away the rules.

We want the cake straight away. But there is no cake. You have to make that kick first to enjoy after the kick.

Know, I think that can happen. People can invest in a false conceptual delusion of somebody. But for me, the fundamentals is a cliche thing. But just being good to each other, I mean, I might be a little bit over the top by opening doors and doing different things, but that's really what it comes down to, being sort of conscientious and a bit caring. And perhaps when you deliver communication just a little bit sensitive. So it's maybe not to hurt the feelings. I'm not sent to be dishonest, but just some level of that which the world doesn't owe us, does it?

As we know as an knows he's getting shit off his customers. The world will not treat you like that. So if we can have somebody who will just be good to you in a kind way, and that includes also, that doesn't mean being polite also, but it means maybe not accepting things. If you think, hey, you keep that spending your money on that or something.

That.

To me, is more more relevant than the kind of delusion of a perfect partner. Somebody who's good to you goes a long way.

I.

Think fixation is it is really what we do as humans. We fix table things. It's why if you look at businesses like Blockbusters, we offered the opportunity to buy Netflix, like, really cheap. And they were like, people are always going to want to go to go to the video store, no one's going to watch them online. And Blockbusters are gone. And there's a book that talks about how PayPal was something completely different. Ebay was something completely different. Instagram, all of the big companies we know now started off as something very different.

And the ones that fixate on, I know my path are the ones that don't make it because there's something flawed in your vision to start with. And it's formula for success is to let go of a fixation. And what you really want is not what you think you want at a star. And that's so true in relationships, like if everyone could get there, there's some celebrity that says, I wish everyone could be famous and be a famous star because they see see, it's not what they really want.

And in the same in relationships, if everyone could get to partner, they think they want, they'd seem fine. That's not what they want. So, yeah, yeah, fixation is and the openness. And I really think conversations are the way that we reveal our fixations. Let go of what we believe. That isn't true. The someone probably assumptions that's a lot of it is our assumptions that we since the Arm. And yeah, the ability to what we really want is the pure. What I talked about the pure transactions and the money and things like that are secondary transact, secondary currencies.

Like, we have money to buy happiness, we have money to buy time, we have money to buy things to make us happy, to impress people. All of these things. But it's the primary currency we really want. And connection really comes in most and that we have to get the primary currencies from people. And conversations is the way that we have the conjure. She formed those connections.

Let me add one more things for that. But recently I realized and how I describe everybody wants a chocolate without calories. So what I'm in behind is everyone to be dark, but they're not willing as to do the job for it. It's not really as to put the shit there, to work for it, to do the action, to be Proactive, to do the things they just simply wanted. The chocolate without calories. That's how I can describe it. They want to have a million pounds, but what they do for it, they're just crying every single day.

And that's a drama personality inside, because we're all having that. I do having. I think we're all having. That's the human nature. That's how human put in mind twin. That's part of it great. But to express it and continuously let it to run, that's a huge difference. That's when you become responsible for your own action, you own it. You're not letting that program to run. It what I learned last year, the word responsibility that make me the selfrealization. Otherwise, it will all the time just running the same program, and I will just stay in one place.

One of the things that I think we are forgetting is that with the signification of romance and relationships is that people don't make you happy and fulfilled. That's your job for you. And if you can't work on yourself to make yourself a better person, then nobody else can do that. So having this list of all these things and attributes that you're looking for in somebody, it's to enhance your relationship and fulfill it and make it better for both of you. But it can't make you any different to who you really are.

That's your job. That's who you need to fix yourself. You need. You know, and I think we have lost the plot wherein we think where somebody says, you complete me. I mean, in the movies, you completely my rear end. I mean, what the hell does that mean? I am complete already. I mean, you know, words and out.

Okay.

I'm serious. I am me. Okay. Yes. You can bring out certain action. In other words, I love a good laugh, and you love a good laugh. And so we have lots of good laugh and that sort of thing. Yeah. And there's that synergy. But essentially, it's not your responsibility to create a better version of me or a newer version or a lesser version of me or whatever it may be. I am me. And I think that's why some people are frustrated because they are not put it in the work.

They think that somebody will make it for them. And so they abuse you, and they come at you with all kinds of aggression and thing and whatever. And I'm not happy, and I'm not fulfilled. And why is it that they are not?

I.

Because you're a bad parent if you don't pets likely what people pay on pets.

I.

Had another one in mind. Why are we paying so much for cars that are about all clothes when we can buy a Tshirt in prime for, like two pound £3? And yet people are paying £300 and oh yeah, why is breakfast? You know, I grew up when my mom I never really liked eating in the morning and I was always late being up. My mom was like, oh, you got to have breakfast. This is the most imortant meal of the day. Something recently I learned that phrase, the breakfast been the most important meal of the day.

Not only is it a lie, because it actually there is no harm in missing and fasting, but it actually comes about from a serial manufacturers advertising campaign. In about the 30 to 40s 50s of breakfast is the most important meal of the day. And it was to sell some sugary shit that doesn't know one any good. So, yeah, I think there's the problem of capitalism is it capitalizes on our weaknesses. And I saw something headline on the news of like free gambling as created gambling problems in lockdown.

And it is wherever you can make money out of people's weaknesses, people's needs people's desires or tears. That's when money is made.

So.

That the opposite of that is really just to summarize is conversations. I think what we really want in life, what we really value is the pure currencies of time, attention, love, affection, respect, feeling valued. But so often we try to shortcut and which way I can buy it. And I think that's really the power of conversation is that conversation can reveal the gaps in our thinking. It can help us project where we're going, and it can help us learn from each other and share who we are.

So we can really be seen so we can really be understood and really be loved.

So the other word to add to that is honest, honest conversations, not all in different way.

It's more about communication because these days what we do, we only communicate to reply. Nothing else we do, which is reply. But when you start understanding from where that's coming, who they are, that's when you start connecting, that's when you communicate. That's a core communication we don't do as to humans, which is sending so much information out there these days to get the other person. So knuckle and saying, okay, I'm out. It's an at.

Okay.

Right.

Well, thank you, everyone, for this collection of communications and conversations. So I think it's art of relating next week is, oh, great. So, anyway, have a good week. Everyone have good conversations. See you next week.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.