Croatia’s Adriatic coast may look made for effortless island-hopping, but choosing the right route can transform the trip. Travel writer Mary Novakovich joins Daniel to unlock the islands, ferry hubs, food and local customs of coastal Croatia, drawing on decades of travel and her own family ties to the country.

Check our website for more >> https://www.destinationunlocked.com

Mary begins in the Kvarner Gulf, where Krk, Cres, Lošinj and Rab each offer a different character, before travelling south through Zadar, the Kornati archipelago and Šibenik towards the better-known islands of Dalmatia. Along the way, she makes a case for looking beyond the headline stops: staying longer on Mljet, exploring Stari Grad and Jelsa as well as Hvar Town, or taking a simple foot ferry to the car-free islands of Zlarin and Prvić. From quiet pebble beaches to busy ferry ports, the episode is both a route-planning guide and a portrait of a coastline whose appeal lies in its variety, layered history and remarkable sense of local character.

For independent travellers, there is practical advice on the choices that shape an island-hopping itinerary. Passenger catamarans are fast but cannot take cars; car ferries offer more freedom once ashore but serve fewer routes. In high season, Mary recommends booking ahead and often using Split as a hub, even when that means returning to the mainland between islands. She also explains why a small-ship cruise can work well, particularly for reaching secluded coves, swimming spots and hiking routes.

The conversation also moves inland to Lika, where Mary’s parents were born and where she spent an unforgettable childhood summer in 1976. She discusses her award-winning book, My Family and Other Enemies: Life and Travels in Croatia’s Hinterland, which combines memoir, family history and travel writing to explore a region deeply affected by the Second World War, the break-up of Yugoslavia and the Croatian War of Independence.

Food is never far away: grilled fish with blitva, slow-cooked peka, Kvarner scampi, Dubrovnik’s šporki makaruli, Istrian truffles and waterfront fish festivals all make an appearance. Mary also tackles rising prices, overtourism, beach etiquette and imported tipping culture, while explaining how to experience Dubrovnik without spending the entire stay inside its crowded Old Town.

Finally, Mary shares her quick-fire essentials: swim in the Adriatic, pack water shoes, visit in September, try rakija and bring home a bottle of Croatian olive oil. She also nominates one heavily promoted attraction that she would happily skip: Biševo’s Blue Cave.

This is destination unlocked with me, Daniel Edward.

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Hi.

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Welcome back to Destination Unlocked, the

Conversational Travel podcast featuring

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genuine locals and true travel experts.

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And today we are joined by

Mary Kovich, who's going to be

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unlocking coastal Croatia for us.

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She a travel writer, covering a variety

of places, but the area that I think

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she is best known for is Croatia.

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She's even got personal family ties

to the country, which has explored in

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her book, my Family and Other Enemies,

which we'll chat a bit about in this

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conversation along with loads of tips

for your upcoming trip to Croatia.

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If it's on the cards, enjoy.

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So Mary, where are you

unlocking for us today?

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Mary Novakovich: I'm unlocking

Ireland hopping in Croatia.

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Daniel Edward: Croatia is a country

which when it comes to Adriatic

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coastline, if you un wiggled all of

the islands and crits and all of these

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things, I think it's got a longer

coastline than Italy along the Adriatic.

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It's a wonderful coastline to explore.

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as we go through the conversation,

we're going dip into a few different

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places along the way, but I can't

help but start with Croatia being

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quite a strangely shaped country.

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It is sort of like a boomerang that

sort of wraps around Bosan, Hertz,

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gaa, sort of to make sure that they

don't get any coastline at all.

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Croatia is very much about the coast.

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Mary Novakovich: Yes, that's right.

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Or the funnier thing you mentioned

Bosnia and the ov bit Bosnia

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actually has a tiny, tiny bit of

coastline in the place called Naum.

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which is a legacy of many of

the previous empires that, that

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used to rule the whole region.

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and it's, it's not the best bit

of coastline you could possibly

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wish for, but it's the only bit.

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Daniel Edward: They've been gifted.

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It, it's,

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Mary Novakovich: Yes, indeed.

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Yeah.

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Daniel Edward: let's start

with a moment of history.

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How did this area sort of come

to be in its current form?

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It is so confusing.

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Mary Novakovich: It is confusing,

and I'll have to keep this very, very

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brief, otherwise I can spend the next

hour talking about the history of

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Croatia, which is fascinating for those

who like history and like Croatia,

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but There's an awful lot of it.

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very briefly, it's had, many

rulers since it was its own

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kingdom back in the Middle Ages.

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it was ruled by Venice

for hundreds of years.

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it was then ruled by the Hapsburg,

so it was part of Austria.

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It was actually the Austrian coast,

the Austrian Riviera, and the

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Austrian were the ones who pretty

much developed tourism, back in the

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19th century all throughout Kuia.

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When Napoleon, was

rampaging through Europe.

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It was also part of the French Empire,

briefly only for about eight years

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and then Austrians got it back again.

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it became part of Yugoslavia after

the first World War, the second World

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War came along and interrupted things.

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Germany and Italy occupied it.

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It was annexed by Italy.

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they were tossling over the

islands after the second World War.

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And then it was fully yugos again,

communist yugos with Tito in

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charge until 1991 when it voted

for independence from Yugos Avia.

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And then the wars of independence came,

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So we've had 35 years now of Croatia

being its own country as it hasn't been

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since something like the 11th century.

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Daniel Edward: It's a turbulent

history, but it shows that

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everybody wanted a piece of Croatia.

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And over the last, 10 to 15

years, I have seen a surge of

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interest touristically in Croatia.

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there are certain places in the country

which have been calling for people

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to visit Dubrovnik is the one that is

probably the first on people's mind.

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I think we're gonna end there.

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Where should we go first along

our sort of island hopping jaunt.

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Mary Novakovich: if you look at

Ireland specifically, which means

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we exclude Istria, but then Istria

is, is a very popular place.

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The biggest number of tourists actually

throughout all of Croatia is from Germany.

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Germany and Austria, Slovenia,

because they can drive there.

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So that whole northern part of Croatia is

full of tourists from nearby countries.

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And then you get to the K Gulf,

which is the first set of proper

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islands, K Es, hin and Arab.

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And that was very much a

combination of the Venetian

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empire and also the Hapsburgs.

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, And the combination of the

architecture is just, fantastic

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seeing it all just thrown together.

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they're all very different islands.

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Uh, Rab for example, tiny, tiny island

has about two dozen sandy beaches, which

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is very unusual in Croatia 'cause it's

almost all pebble and rocky beaches.

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, Kuk is the biggest island that's

joined by a bridge to the mainland,

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which makes it very easy to visit.

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And they've got some

great wine there as well.

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and then you need to get the ferry to

go to ses, which is the biggest island.

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Used to be tied with Kku.

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And then they had some, coastal erosion.

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So Es is now the biggest one,

and it's very underpopulated.

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It's more sheep than people.

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Beautiful place.

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And then you, get the ferry to Es

and then you cross a bridge and then

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you get to Los, which was one of the

favourite places amongst the Habsburgs,

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for their summer holidays because it

was just so full of, wild herbs and

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it's a very soothing, relaxing place.

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Those are the main islands.

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And of course you have little

archipelago off losin as well.

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little place called Suk, which is,

again, Sandy beach, very unusual.

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And there's bottle nose dolphins

of the southern coast of hin.

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you go further south

and you get towards ard.

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And ARD is one of the most

beautiful cities in all of Croatia.

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that goes back to.

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Pre Roman times.

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And in fact, if you go to the main square,

you've got ancient Roman Rubins from the

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forum, by zine , church, which is now

a, classical concert venue renaissance

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church, 16th century monastery.

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I mean, everything in this one square,

which sort of encapsulates zadar.

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And then you have the, islands which are

very easy to reach from Zadar as well.

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So a lot of ferries and, and boat

tours go to the zadar, archipelago.

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one of the loveliest islands, which is

a bit far from there, it's called Otok.

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that's close to, ti National Park, which

is, oh, I dunno how many dens there

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are now dozen, several dozen Ireland.

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There's no permanent

, population there at all.

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And it's this incredibly barren,

beautiful, sprinkling these strange

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islands and the Adriatic and the contrast

between the brownness of the islands

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where you see some olive groves and some

sheep on their own and dry stone walls.

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And then you've got the vividness

of the Adriatic sort of turquoise,

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blue, green, everything.

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It's just, it's absolutely stunning

and it's very popular for people

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on boats, either, you know, they're

doing their own sailing or they're

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on a skipper, boat or a yacht.

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, And it really is an absolutely

beautiful, very, very stark,

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but, a stark beauty to it.

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so that's easy to get to from Za.

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And then we get further south,

to, a coastal city called Shi,

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which it's strangely underlooked.

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I don't know why.

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it's one of the stops on cruise ships

ours is zaa, but not big ones because

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they can't actually get into the

channel that is in front of Sibenik.

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But you have a little series of islands,

near Sibenik, two of them I've been to,

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which actually adorable little places.

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They both have band cars.

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One is called Ardine and

the other one is pvi.

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And they are really just laid back

little islands where you just go and

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swim and have some food just relax

and not do much of anything really.

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You get the little foot

fairy that goes for shoe.

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It's like a few euros to get there.

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Very easy.

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Daniel Edward: You've mentioned ferries

quite a lot, which makes sense given

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that we're talking about islands.

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How easy is it as a first time visitor,

or at least somebody who doesn't

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speak the local language to sort out

these ferries to get here and there?

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Is it something that you just book

online and you turn up, you've got

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a QR code on your phone, or is it a

little bit more old school than that?

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Mary Novakovich: actually everything you

can book online and if anyone is going

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doing anything vaguely resembling the

high season book ahead, especially if you

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have a car, because a lot of the islands,

for example, once you arrive, it's

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hard to get around on public transport.

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And if you have your own car, then

it's easier to explore the islands.

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Having said that, if you do have a

car, then you are limited only to car

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ferries rather than the catamarans,

which are for passengers only.

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So you have to decide, you know,

if you're travelling light and you

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want to catamaran, then you can

maybe get somewhere, get an Uber.

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You can get Ubers all over Croatia now,

and then you can hire an e-bike or hire

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a scooter or hire a bike once you are

there to get around, we've done that a

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few times where we've hired a scooter

and it's just one of the best ways to

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get

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Daniel Edward: And by scooter, are you

talking sort of moped style scooter?

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Mary Novakovich: yeah.

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Like a, you know, a 1, 2, 5 cc, whatever,

I wouldn't recommend the electric scooters

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Daniel Edward: You be all over the place.

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Mary Novakovich: on, on those roads.

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No, you don't want to do that.

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Daniel Edward: So how easy

is it to actually get between

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the different islands?

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Mary Novakovich: they're different.

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ways.

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And, and generally, it's hard

to go from Ireland to Ireland

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depending on where you are.

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very classic example

is in central Dalmatia.

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Split is the second largest

city in the country.

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And it's a ferry hub.

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It's a very busy place in its own right.

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' cause it's second largest city.

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But if you are doing island hopping,

I found, and having done this several

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times now, that it's actually easier to

go back and forth from split, because

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that's where the ferries start and end.

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So say for example, you want to

go to the island of Bach, which is

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the largest end dalmatia and one of

the two closest islands to, split.

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You really need to go

back and forth and split.

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And then if you want to go from

Bach to Kova, it gets complicated

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because you can only go there on

a foot ferry under a catamaran.

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So best to go back and

forth and plan for that.

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there are two different, ferry lines

that have passenger catamarans,

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and then is the one that has

both catamarans and car ferries go

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online, book it, pay for everything.

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It's all very straightforward.

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They have, English versions of it.

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and yes, book well ahead.

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if you're going there in the

summer, I would not leave that.

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The chance, if you're planning

an island hopping holiday.

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Daniel Edward: I enjoyed Split.

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I think it's a great place to spend

a bit of time anyway, so I like the

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fact that it's easy to fly in there.

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You don't have to go to Dubrovnik,

for example, and move up.

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You can just go straight to split, and

then stay there, bounce out from there.

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I've never thought of an island hopping

option as being that with sort of a

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central base and then, almost like

an asterisk, you zip out from there.

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but it, makes perfect sense and if that's

where the easiest transportation options

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are, you're gonna make your holiday

more relaxed by doing it that way.

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If you are living at large and you

are going out on a privately skipper

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yacht, and there are quite a few of

these available, it is big business

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out in the Adriatic to rent a private

boat, which is crude for you, so you

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don't even have to worry about that

side of things then are you doing

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it as a one way down the coastline?

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Mary Novakovich: yes.

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In fact, I've done a couple of, cruise,

journeys in Croatia where it's the

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small passenger yard and you are

one of like 38 passengers maximum.

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And those have become

really, really popular.

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Almost a little bit too popular because

for example, I was last year on the island

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of Ula, and I was in a stack of 10 of

these ships beside another stack of 10.

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And if you are in the 10th ship,

you have to walk through nine

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other ships to get to your own.

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Yeah, I know.

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now.

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It is very popular for a very good reason

because it's actually a fantastic way of

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exploring the coastline and the islands.

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because you'll have all sorts of

different types of itineraries.

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You can have ones that begin and

end in Dubrovnik, ones that begin in

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Dubrovnik and end in split or vice versa.

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Ones that go up the, in the northern

part of Dalmatia around zadar

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ones that go into the Kavana Gulf.

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but the most popular are between

split and Dubrovnik and the different

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permutations of journeys, different

island combinations: I've done one where

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it was a hiking cruise, so everywhere

that you stopped, you would do a

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proper hike you can do whatever you

want in the afternoon or the morning

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and and then, eat on the island.

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and that was a brilliant way

to, explore more than, rather

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than just going to cities.

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And I've done that too.

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and also the swim stops.

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they always find beautiful coves where

they anchor and they bring out all

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the, the kayaks and paddleboards and

foam noodles and, you just swim there,

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just play in the water, so, you haven't

got to be on a privately skipper the

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yacht to do that, where you haven't

got to be a, a sailor to do that.

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You can just join one of these

where have daily swim stops.

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And that's one of the

magical things that you can

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Daniel Edward: That sounds lovely because

you're getting away from the mass crowds.

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I mean, I'm sure you're not gonna

be the only small ship in a cove.

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They probably know each other's secrets,

but you're still away from the, bulk

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of the tourists that have arrived.

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You said that split to Dubrovnik,

or Dubrovnik to split tends to be

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the most common or popular option.

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Is that because of the ease of

access to Split and Dubrovnik,

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or is that because the journey in

between them is particularly special?

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Mary Novakovich: Well,

probably a bit of both.

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there are many more popular islands,

you do end up going to the same places.

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And there's a reason for that

because it has all the infrastructure

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for the ships, for the tourists.

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And there are also beautiful

places, so people want to go

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to the example, the island.

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and people will dock in Q Town, which

is the most popular place on the

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island, sort of ignoring the fact that

there's a beautiful village called

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Ysa on the other side of the coast.

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starry Ard, which is the one that all

the car fairies go to Beautiful place.

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People don't really go there much.

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They all descend arc of our town.

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And Ka our town is beautiful, but

so are the parts of the island.

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So it's looking at itineraries that

don't always do the obvious thing.

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another beautiful place that people sort

of only see tiny bit of is the island of

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Ette, which has the mil national park on

the sort of the north northwestern part.

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Probably just about a third of

the island is a national park.

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And it's a beautiful place.

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There's two inland lakes.

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There's wonderful hiking and cycling

and, the rest of the island, unless

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you're actually staying there and you

have a car, people never really see.

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and it is definitely worth exploring.

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I think sometimes it might be worth

looking at an itinerary and then

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using that as a base for your own.

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Daniel Edward: So to balance

it, do a part of a, a cruise.

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So you're getting that highlights package.

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You're getting access to the swim

spots that you might not otherwise

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find in these little secluded coves

and stuff, which just sound idyllic.

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And then say, I'll take another

week with a rental car, or indeed,

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on the scooters and do it my way.

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Mary Novakovich: every cruise I've

done, I've always been, talking

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to other passengers who've, topped

and tailed it with other, parts of

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Croatia which makes perfect sense.

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In fact, I did one, it was a sailing,

a catamaran sailing holiday with the

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skipper and a crew actually was the

owner of the company and his skipper.

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it was only three nights, around

the Shanik Archipelago and ti and

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that was on a, four cabin catamaran.

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and there was another, two American

friends who were there, and that

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was the last thing they had done in

a whole month of being in Croatia.

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Other people, they'll add five days

in a beach resort or they'll add

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another week exploring inland Croatia.

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So they'll go to Kaka National Park,

they'll go to Plet Pizza Lakes,

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they'll go to Zagreb so you can

combine that with so many other things.

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I've always added other

days somewhere else.

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Because while you are there, why

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Daniel Edward: Absolutely.

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If you're gonna make the journey,

especially if you're coming from the

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States, it's a lot further for us

coming from the uk it's, I mean, it's

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not close, but it's certainly not far.

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Now your journey to Croatia talking

of close and far is quite interesting.

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What was your connection to the place?

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Mary Novakovich: My

parents were born there.

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well, actually my, when my father

was born, it was still the kingdom

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of Serbs, KOTs Snes, which was

the precursor to Yugos Xavier.

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My mother was born in Yugos, Xavier,

but actually as is now Croatia.

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And I first went there in 1976 as a child.

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I was, sort of shipped

there for the summer

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on my

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Daniel Edward: On your

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Mary Novakovich: yeah.

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yeah.

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To stay with a, an aunt and uncle.

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And, I met a whole load of

cousins I never knew I had.

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that was an unforgettable

summer for many reasons.

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One, it was, I was, terribly

homesick and being the youngest

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and the only girl in the family.

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I was a bit of a sport

brat, put it that way.

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And here I was in a place I didn't know.

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And it was very alien to me.

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It was a tiny mountain village

in the middle of nowhere.

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And the closest place that anyone's

ever heard of is Pete Pizza Lakes.

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And even that was about

an hour's drive away.

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My parents were ethnic Serbs.

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So I grew up speaking Serbian and

I realised when I got there that my

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cradle tongue was not adequate anymore.

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And I was floundering.

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I was trying to, you know,

pick up the language.

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And by the end of the whole summer,

total immersion, which works, was fluent.

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I was dreaming in it.

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I was thinking in the language.

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I came back speaking English

with ob Serbian accent.

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If you want your children to learn a

language, throw them in the midst of

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all this and have them get on with it.

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And that was obviously well before

the days of, you know, Google

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Translate and things like that.

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That was a very special time, even though

it was really hard work to begin with.

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And that I, that made me fall in

love with it, with the region called

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Leeka, which is the name of the

region that my parents are from.

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Obviously the war interrupted, things

a lot, but, I've been, constantly

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visiting now for, decades and each

time really finding out more parts

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of the country that I had known

but didn't really know very well.

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, for a small place, there is so much

diversity all around the country.

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Daniel Edward: Yeah, even from the very

small amounts that I've experienced so

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far and in my reading about Croatia and

Yugoslavia, there's a lot in that region.

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The Balkans, as an outsider, it's

confusing, but , as somebody who

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was an insider outsider in that, you

didn't grow up there yet, your family's

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culture very much was from there.

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The reasons that people moved from

there wasn't necessarily positive.

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And now to see the places change

over time and now be welcoming again,

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must be bit of a personal journey.

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Mary Novakovich: Yes, absolutely.

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And also, and the pockets of, Croatia

where they used to have a large

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Serbian minority obviously is, is a

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the last, push of the, Croatian War of

Independence, a lot of them, more than

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I think 200,000 SRBs were expelled.

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so that presence is much

smaller now than it used to be.

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so it, it's bittersweet for me

because I also love the sea.

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my parents' old region try to pick

itself up after the war because that

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was where a lot of the fighting was.

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and you still see houses that had, mortar

shells and, ruins but then other parts

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of Leika, especially towards the west,

place called, um, CHUs, pet the Valley.

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It's becoming a place for active

holidays and adventure tourism and

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lots of cycling holidays and hiking

and, and kayaking and fishing.

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and what's also nice is that people,

even though a lot of young Croatians

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have essentially been immigrating really

since the early nineties and the next

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generation, they've been immigrating.

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And so you find a load of,

Croatians in, you know, Germany,

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very large number in Dublin.

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, But some of the diaspora, they're coming

back and they're taking up old family

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businesses, or they are grandchildren of

ones who'd immigrated in the, early 20th

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century I met a young la just last week

whose grandfather had immigrated he was

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able to come back, to live in i in his

twenties to live in, in culture, which is

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one of the most beautiful places to live.

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So why not?

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and so all these stories have been coming

out it's good to see that, I mean,

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there's still a long way to go because,

, they have had, , a lot of, population

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drain over the decades and, people are

trickling back which is, wonderful to

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see.

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Daniel Edward: Well, I think a huge

part of it is the work that you

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and other travel writers are doing.

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Because tourists go, they come back

raving about it, and then people

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with heritage there suddenly re-see

a country which they've inherited

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certain stories or feelings about.

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They see it through new eyes, they

reconnect with it, and suddenly they

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realise they want to go to, uh, maybe

spiritual home is pushing it too far,

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but, there is a cool to the place that

is deeper than just the surface beauty

384

of the coastline or the national parks.

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you wrote a beautiful book that

connects with your family story and the

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country, my family, and other enemies.

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Mary Novakovich: Yes.

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Well, , I have to say, um, one of the

best things I ever did was come up with

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that title because my family and Other

Animals is one of my favourite books.

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and if you come from my parents'

region, at some point you will

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be an enemy as my parents were.

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and that was pretty much, decades of

my travels in Leika, starting with

393

that first unforgettable summer in

394

stories of my family at the same time.,

395

One of the chapters was, a very

long road trip I did with my mother.

396

she was probably in a very early stages of

dementia and it was the most bad tempered

397

journey I think I'd ever taken in my life.

398

And the two of us never stopped

squabbling we just brought

399

out the worst in each other.

400

But, I did manage to get her stories

of the Second World War, but she

401

was only 10 when it finished.

402

And I also got stories of other members of

my family, other family friends, because

403

it was important to tell these stories

they haven't really been told, especially

404

the Serbian experience in Leika.

405

I don't wanna get into too much detail

of the 91 War, but, pretty much it

406

started to leak, the first fighting.

407

, There were so many aspects of our history

that haven't really been explored.

408

I felt, it was a big responsibility

for me to try to tell these

409

stories before everyone.

410

They were pure to tell

them, , or they've since gone.

411

A lot of people I talked to

in my book have since died.

412

So , having the sort of the family

history and memoir in addition to a

413

travel log in a region that people

didn't really know, it was begging to

414

be told and I was really pleased I was

415

able to do it.

416

Daniel Edward: And it deserves that longer

format because a lot of your work is

417

articles which are constrained in their,

length by the number of pages or indeed

418

the number of columns that you're given.

419

You've gotta be so selective about

what you're able to put into it.

420

This, you got the gift of space.

421

Mary Novakovich: I had 70,000 words I

had no format, no template, no subheads.

422

I came up with my own chapters, my

own word length, and the liberty,

423

the freedom of writing a book

like that was absolutely glorious.

424

I, I loved it.

425

I'm actually working on, book two at the

moment, and my agent is trying to get a,

426

a book deal keeping fingers crossed, you

might get something soon it's another

427

Croatia travel log, but it's a, very, very

428

different

429

type of story.

430

Daniel Edward: Oh, well when that happens,

come back and we'll talk about that book.

431

that's very exciting.

432

When you are out there on trips or

indeed just, on your longer term travels

433

that may inspire a story down the line.

434

Do you keep a notebook in your pocket?

435

Is that your style?

436

what sort of things do you do?

437

Mary Novakovich: When I'm chatting

to somebody, and I know instantly

438

they've got a great story.

439

I bring up the voice memos on my iPhone.

440

and funny enough, the only thing I

use AI for, the only thing is the,

441

instant transcript that you get with

your voice memos on your iPhone.

442

It's complete gibberish most of the time,

but you can get enough out of it before

443

you have to listen to it again to get

all the gibberish, into proper English.

444

But it's good if you need a

couple of really quick quotes

445

when you're on deadline.

446

so I'm, I'm voice memos all the time,

you know, long hand, tonnes and tonnes of

447

photos of everything, signs, directions,

opening hours, all sorts of things.

448

And so I look at my, phone library, which

is about 13,000 photos at the moment.

449

And I think, what is, oh yeah, that

was how to get to such and such place.

450

And, you know, that was remind me to,

you know, that was where that sign was.

451

I was at Village was.

452

Even if I'm on holiday, I

don't really do holidays.

453

And the very, very, very rare

times I've done a holiday, I've

454

actually written about it anyway.

455

Daniel Edward: It's funny, every

holiday turns a Busman's holiday

456

For a travel you never know

when the story's there.

457

And

458

why on earth would you

ignore it if it's there?

459

Mary Novakovich: Exactly.

460

yep.

461

I don't think I've actually gone

anywhere in the past 20 years and

462

haven't written about it in some way.

463

Daniel Edward: Are you one of

those people who takes pictures of

464

your meals

465

before you eat them?

466

Mary Novakovich: I do, and they've

come in handy for many reasons.

467

one is if I want to, alert people to

this fantastic restaurant, and wonderful

468

food, but also because I quite often

will revisit a restaurant when I'm

469

writing about something and I need

to remind myself what the dish look.

470

' cause I said all of this as, Nora Efron,

, very famously said, everything is copy.

471

And that includes photographs of meals.

472

'cause I never know what I might

be writing about a particular,

473

Croatian dish or a French dish

or Italian dish or whatever.

474

And I need to remind

myself visually what it

475

looked like.

476

Daniel Edward: What are

those Croatian dishes?

477

Mary Novakovich: Oh, loads, loads of them.

478

If you're on the coast, grilled

fish, simply grilled fish is

479

one of the loveliest things.

480

And my favourite side dish to go with that

really basic thing, it's called ble deva,

481

bleep va is actually chard, Swiss chard,

chard, whatever you want to call it.

482

And it's soften with, with

potatoes and lots of garlic and

483

it's sort of mushed together.

484

And it's just the taste

of the Adriatic for me.

485

And you have that with a plate of

grilled mackerel or sere or whatever,

486

and that's, that's all you need.

487

And that's such a, you know,

olive oil everywhere, obviously.

488

and another really lovely thing

I love to eat is, Burak, which is

489

found all around the, the Balkans.

490

It's a philo pastry pie, although

if you're in Bosnia, depending on

491

the filling, it's called Peter.

492

So don't, that's another story.

493

It is like a, a spinal cita, but

it's sometimes it's, it's in a coil.

494

Other times it's in like a pizza,

like a big round thing, cut

495

like a, like a pizza would be.

496

And either with cheese, a

cheese or spinach or with meat.

497

that's a favourite thing.

498

Although in Croatia they say,

well, it's not a Croatian thing

499

'cause it's a Balkan thing.

500

But I don't care.

501

I have it.

502

I just had some lot of it

503

last week.

504

Daniel Edward: I think in

505

northern Greece, they claim it as well.

506

Mary Novakovich: Well, yes.

507

and in Turkey.

508

'cause obviously anywhere where

the Ottomans have been, you will

509

have philo, pastry and it all,

they've been all over the BS.

510

Also, a method of cooking called Pcca

PCCA's, the name of the dish, and it's a

511

cast iron pot with like a bell-shaped top.

512

and you put in one of the loveliest things

is when you put octopus, or veal or lamb

513

and then you put all the veg with it.

514

So you put potatoes and carrots

and onions and lots of garlic.

515

And that all cooks together on

hot embers and on top of it is

516

stacked with hot embers as well.

517

There's a little ring around the

base of the lid to hold all the

518

embers, cooks there for hours.

519

And the succulents is just incredible.

520

Absolutely beautiful.

521

In fact, one of my loveliest packers

I had recently was on the island of

522

Purvi, it was just so, so beautiful,

so succulent, so just delicious.

523

But you normally need to, you have to

book that in advance because it does

524

take hours of cookie can't just rock up.

525

And unless you're in a certain

really, really big touristy places

526

with massive turnover, they can

generally, rustle up a pcca on site.

527

But, generally need to book anything

like three hours ahead to a day before.

528

In Dalmatia, , in, , the Qana Gulf.

529

They're famous for their, Longines called

Shamp, which are so deliciously sweet.

530

and they have, different,

pasta dishes as well.

531

A lovely one they have in the Dubrovnik

region is, sh Sparky macaroni, which

532

is sort of like a long twisted , pasta

with a slow cooked beef sauce.

533

It's been cooked in carrots

and cinnamon and it's

534

really,

535

really

536

Daniel Edward: Oh, with the cinnamon.

537

nice.

538

Mary Novakovich: I know.

539

It just gives that, that richness

and Oh, really, really lovely.

540

Then if you go to Istria, you

have, oh gosh, truffles with

541

everything but real truffles.

542

So it's not fake truffle oil with that

Totally, you know, kills everything.

543

It's proper real truffles and

everything's delicately flavoured

544

with that.

545

Daniel Edward: and that, and

that connects in with the

546

neighbours in Slovenia as well.

547

They

548

love foraging for, truffle

and other mushrooms.

549

Mary Novakovich: Yeah, absolutely.

550

Oh, yes.

551

Forging, in fact, I was

on a, truffle hunt inria.

552

Last year where it coincided with the

very tail end of wild asparagus season.

553

So you walk along and you then pick the

very thin spears, I mean, really, really

554

thin, like, a pencil lead sort of with,

and you just pick that as you go as well.

555

And that's a really big thing in April.

556

Just talk about seasonal

things, fish festivals, seafood

557

festivals throughout the summer.

558

Absolutely fantastic.

559

They have all the local fishermen, they

set up grills on the waterfront and

560

you buy a, plate of grilled mackerel,

grilled sardines, grilled squid and,

561

you know, a couple of the local wine.

562

And, there's music playing and

it's one of the loveliest things.

563

when I happened to turn up

doing a seafood festival, I'm

564

really, really

565

Daniel Edward: So you

say, if you happen to

566

turn up, makes it sound like there's

a little bit of luck involved.

567

Mary Novakovich: Sometimes, I did

actually turn up purely by luck.

568

We were in Kula, in the fishing

village of, Lombard, and they

569

happened to have a Friday fish Fest.

570

And we turned up on the first one

of the summer, and it kicked off.

571

It was, I, I think it was

actually the 21st of June.

572

So it was the first day of

summer, 'cause it was a Friday.

573

and they built a big bonfire on the beach

and people were actually jumping over the

574

I know I, I was mad.

575

I don't think they do the

bonfire even every Friday, but

576

they did it on the first one.

577

And then , the town of Bo on the

southern coast of Bra, which is close

578

to the most famous beach in Croatia

called La Art, the Golden Horn.

579

That's the one that's got the shape

of a v that everyone thinks it's

580

sand, it's not sand, it's pebbles

Anyway, Ball every Wednesday night,

581

in July and August they have a big,

a really big seafood festival in the

582

waterfront, which is just great fun.

583

So Wednesday in Ball, Friday in, Lombard

and then in September, loing will have

584

its, weekend Fish Festival September

is a really nice time for doing that.

585

It's required a bit a bit more laid back.

586

the Islanders reclaim their place for

themselves, and that's a nice time

587

to be there as

588

Daniel Edward: Yet by that point,

they deserve it because they've

589

become so popular over the summer

and they're probably making a good

590

amount of, income now from the

tourism that they can celebrate a bit.

591

When it gets to the end of

that peak season, Croatia's

592

not as affordable as it used to be.

593

Mary Novakovich: no.

594

I really sad to see, it didn't help

when, Croatia joined the Euro a few

595

years ago, and that gave a lot of,

companies the excuse to hike up the

596

prices and the government said they

were going to clamp down on that.

597

Never really did.

598

and then the course, the cost of living

crisis came along and everything has

599

been getting expensive and the prices

have actually gone really really high.

600

I have to choose very carefully

now when I'm eating something.

601

I mean, it depends on where you are.

602

Obviously the smaller places, outside

of roic for example, you know, you can

603

find much more affordable places to eat.

604

but it is sad.

605

And, and every summer, newspaper

articles say, oh, what can we do?

606

What the prices are so high, we've

got to get people to lower them.

607

Daniel Edward: to bring us to somewhere

which is undeniably one of the most

608

expensive places in the country, but

also a place which I don't think can be

609

avoided or, or anything should be avoided.

610

I, I think it's, a, a jewel

of, Croat crown for a reason.

611

that reason might be Game of

Thrones, but it's probably something

612

more than that and it's roic.

613

Mary Novakovich: Absolutely.

614

You know, I've never

watched Game of Thrones.

615

I think I might have called

about two seconds of it.

616

And I, I was completely appalled

by the violence and I thought,

617

Nope, I'm not having this.

618

, I'll leave it to people who like that sort

of thing, and I'm not one of them, but

619

you can't move for Game of Thrones tours

all throughout Dub all and Split as well.

620

'cause it was filmed there

and a few other places.

621

it, it is just now full

of Game of Thrones fans.

622

and it's, I think it's too much

personally, I really do because

623

you come off the ferry in Split

and , they're touting tours to come

624

visit the Game of Thrones Castle.

625

You mean Clea Fortress?

626

It's not The Game of Thrones castle.

627

Stop it.

628

So you get to Dubrovnik obviously massive,

massive amounts of the series with

629

film there, the island of locker room,

which is a beautiful place to visit.

630

And I recommend going there, not just

for a couple of hours, spend the whole

631

day there, have a picnic, have a swim,

relax if you like, game of Thrones.

632

The actual throne is in locker room and

have a photo of yourself with a, thing

633

sticking outta the throne or whatever.

634

But it's a great new, beautiful

place and no one can stay overnight.

635

It's purely just a day trip.

636

but yes, Dubrovnik,

it's bonkers, it's busy.

637

although having, just been there a

couple weeks ago I topped and tailed,

638

a visit to other places nearby and

even though it's really expensive

639

now, it's 40 euros to walk the walls.

640

It's a Lot of money.

641

It's gone.

642

That has gone up hugely.

643

But it is a, wonderful thing to do.

644

It really does give you a

perspective on Dubrovnik that

645

you don't get anywhere else.

646

The last time I was walking the

walls a couple weeks ago, it wasn't

647

as insane as it has been before.

648

they've severely cut back the number of

big cruise ships coming into Dubrovnik.

649

And that has made a massive difference.

650

And it's about time that happened, because

that's when you just get, um, even, you

651

know, you still get, groups of people,

you know, with the, tour leader, you

652

know, holding onto a flag or whatever,

leading 50 people at the same time.

653

but it's, you just sort of, if

you dip in and outta Dubrovnik,

654

you know, you can, you can, you

haven't got to stay in the old town.

655

You can stay in south ta,

which is a beautiful place.

656

A beautiful coastal town.

657

either you can get, get the bus there

or you can get the, you can get the

658

boat from Dubrovnik or the TI Islands,

which, I visited two weeks ago and

659

I was doing a mini den hopping,

tour of the three dens that are

660

just, literally north of Dubrovnik.

661

And people can use that as a

base and get their foot ferry and

662

go to Dubrovnik and come back.

663

Or the big beach resorts on the

peninsulas out just north of the

664

old town leopard and Babin Cook and

those, you have your own world there.

665

You have the sea, you have a big resort,

you've got beaches and you've got loads of

666

restaurants and things to do around there.

667

And then you can get the bus into

Dubrovnik, spend a few hours there and

668

then come back or go there in the evening

when it's a totally different vibe.

669

' cause the day trip isnt gone

670

Daniel Edward: and that is one of the

things that, you'd certainly miss if

671

you're going on one of those mega cruises

because they're out by five or six in

672

the evening and you, you just don't get

to see place in the different lights.

673

everywhere has multiple personalities

and, you only get to see one of them

674

if you're there for too short a time.

675

I think there's a lot to be said.

676

I particularly love arriving

in a place at night.

677

It's my favourite time to arrive because

you don't see the showy part of it.

678

It's a lot more honest.

679

And if you can put up with it at night,

then for sure you'll be able to put up

680

with it the next day once

681

they've put their makeup on.

682

Mary Novakovich: Absolutely.

683

In fact,

684

Even in in town which had developed

a, reputation for, a Croatian version

685

of a, of abi a and, it did get out

of hand, I'm afraid a lot of young

686

British and Australian visitors were

the ones who were drinking too much,

687

passing out in the in park benches,

walking around, you know, wearing next

688

to nothing in Croatia, you have to

remember, it's a conservative Catholic

689

country, so don't walk around in a

690

bikini

691

Daniel Edward: I won't, I promise.

692

Mary Novakovich: Good.

693

Not a good Um, and so, but

they've cut down hugely.

694

They've, they've brought out fines

for any sort of public misbehaviour

695

and they've also cut down massively

on the noise levels for all the beach

696

clubs, which has made a big difference.

697

I was in the choir last summer sitting

there at nine o'clock in the main square.

698

and it had a really pleasant

buzz rather than just healing

699

with birdy dressed, drunk people.

700

that's gone.

701

Which is really, really good.

702

'cause father is beautiful and

you don't really want to be

703

surrounded by drunken, stacking hen

704

parties if you can help

705

Daniel Edward: I think that's one

of the positives of Croatia becoming

706

a little bit more expensive though,

because certainly when Croatia first

707

hit my radar, it was being marketed as

the cheapest way to go abroad into good

708

weather with nice beaches, cheap drinks,

that was the marketing, and you're

709

gonna get a certain type of

traveller following that sales pitch.

710

Mary Novakovich: I tend to disagree

because I've been a lot in the sailing

711

community in Croatia, and if you have

a certain amount of money, a lot of

712

people have a certain mindset, so if

they want higher quality, whatever

713

that might be, tourists, ones with high

incomes, they don't always have the right

714

sort of

715

Daniel Edward: It's like the

716

Burlington Club,

717

isn't it?

718

Mary Novakovich: absolutely.

719

absolutely.

720

I've seen terrible behaviour from

very, very rich people in Croatia.

721

money doesn't

722

equal

723

Daniel Edward: No,

724

Mary Novakovich: It's

a difficult one really.

725

I'm an average middle income

person, I can't afford to spend

726

45 euros on a plate of food, just

so I couldn't do that in London.

727

So why don't eat out in these places?

728

I also don't want to be, put off going

to someplace where you don't have to

729

spend that much, but you just have to do

lots of research and find these places.

730

why should somebody who loves a place be,

put off just because they can't afford it?

731

Whereas anybody can just sworn

in, with very deep pockets, demand

732

everything and usually get it.

733

do you really want people like

that Apps, crawling over Croatia?

734

I

735

Daniel Edward: So in terms of

etiquette, you mentioned it's

736

a fairly conservative society.

737

what other things should people

be, aware of to fit in and be

738

respectful of, the local culture?

739

Mary Novakovich: First

of all, if you go into

740

a

741

church, please

742

cover your shoulders

and take your hat off.

743

I've seen so many girls and you

know, Skippy, little tops and, you

744

know, strappy little things and

shorts and say, if, if you don't

745

dress for it, don't go into a church.

746

. You find that in France and Italy

and Spain, other Catholic countries.

747

So just do not do that.

748

Tipping is an interesting thing, because a

lot of Americans come to Croatia and a lot

749

of Brits and the American tipping culture

has completely invaded so much of Croatia,

750

the bits where all the tourists go.

751

Croatia does not have a tipping culture.

752

The Americans unfortunately have now

given a lot of Croatian businesses the

753

idea that, okay, tip, yes, we like that.

754

And I was at a beach bar where the code

for the wifi was tip is not included.

755

Yes, I know.

756

So I don't tip because

that's not the culture.

757

Do you want to round up a bill, if

you want to, you do not have to tip.

758

And, and I got, because I speak the

language, just my most recent visit

759

to Dubrovnik, and I've had people,

I could see that they actually, when

760

I'm speaking to them in Croatian, and

I could see that they've deleted that

761

added tip bit when they give me the

card reader because they will now put

762

it on and you haven't got to tip, you're

buying a drink, you don't have to tip.

763

It's just one of those things where,

sorry, Americans, but that part of

764

the culture is just something that is

wrecking people's experiences because

765

it's now expected because people like to

make money and they've got used to that.

766

And Brit are, is bad.

767

I was in one place where, a couple,

they've been doing yoga, every morning

768

in this particular piece tonne.

769

And he insisted on tipping the yoga

instructor and the man was really,

770

it's like, no, no, honestly, do,

you don't have to gimme this money.

771

And he, he was insistent.

772

they're not being modest.

773

that's just not the dumb thing.

774

Daniel Edward: it changes an economy

beyond recognition to, expect these weird

775

additional payments and, apologies if

you're somebody who, who doesn't see them

776

as weird additional payments, because

that's what you've been told to do.

777

But I am a big believer if you're

going to employ somebody, you

778

should pay them a fair amount

for the job that they're doing.

779

And if you're going to accept a

job, you should make sure that

780

it pays you the amount you want

to be paid before you accept it.

781

I think in certain places, 25% tips,

that is a quarter of the price added

782

on.

783

Again,

784

I don't get it do not

785

it.

786

Mary Novakovich: I find it really

interesting being in France, going off,

787

you know, going inside off, off ta off

a tangent where , they include a service

788

charge, everything has a service charge,

and then people still tip on top of that.

789

You don't have to do that.

790

I know they'd even, they

don't even realise that.

791

They're just so used to having to tip.

792

So anyway, Croatia not

793

a

794

tipping

795

Daniel Edward: And that is

something that should stay the case.

796

Mary Novakovich: Absolutely.

797

Daniel Edward: What is your

top thing to see or do in

798

Croatia?

799

Mary Novakovich: Swim,

800

ply beaches are my favourite.

801

Don't like sandy beaches particularly.

802

Sand gets everywhere.

803

Buy a good pair of, swimming shoes or

even a cheap pair of swimming shoes.

804

You can get them for like 10 euros

in any sort of souvenir shop and just

805

go into that water is too beautiful

to ignore and just swim snorkel.

806

It doesn't take too long to heat up.

807

I was swimming at the end of May, early

June, and it was perfect temperature.

808

A lot of Croatians won't

start swimming until St.

809

Anthony's Day in June because

it's just the traditional thing.

810

But I forget that.

811

also because of the pebbles and the way

that the Adriatic flows, it's clean.

812

It's amongst the cleanest seas in Europe.

813

so you don't have the debris that

the sand pulls in and out when

814

you've got pebbles everywhere.

815

But you do have sea urchins.

816

So look out for sea urchins.

817

Daniel Edward: What is a

tourist trap or a common

818

mistake to avoid?

819

Mary Novakovich: I think the

tipping thing that we touched

820

on is a common mistake to avoid.

821

actually I do have a tourist trap

and it's going to go against grain of

822

what a lot of people , write about.

823

And like, the island of v an

island off the island of V called

824

Bibo is home to the blue cave.

825

Now you've got tours from all over Dalma,

central Dalmatian having a day on a boat

826

and you go to the Blue Cave and then when

you get there, you have to pay 24 euros

827

to sit on one of the, official boats that

go into this incredibly beautiful cave.

828

You and 5 other boats, six at a

time, go into this cave, 10 minutes,

829

you are out again for 24 years.

830

I didn't think it was worth it.

831

I'm glad I did it to see what exactly

it was like, 'cause people write about,

832

I've written about the Blue Cave 'cause

it's one of those things that you

833

mentioned in passing, but after having

seen it, I could give that one a miss.

834

Daniel Edward: What's your

favourite time of year to

835

visit?

836

Mary Novakovich: September.

837

Definitely.

838

It's a fantastic time to come

because it's still summer.

839

I've also been in October third week of

October when it was still 25 degrees and

840

the water was still, wonderfully warm.

841

low twenties.

842

So for me, that's fine.

843

Daniel Edward: Would you

say is your top book or film

844

about, Croatia?

845

Mary Novakovich: Strange.

846

You should ask that.

847

obviously, my family and other

enemies, subtitled Life and travels

848

in Ous Hinterland by Marian Kovich.

849

, That one does actually show a

lot of signs of Croatia that

850

people don't, don't normally get.

851

but more seriously, it all depends really

on, if you want nonfiction or fiction.

852

I, read a fantastic book, by a

Croatian writer, and she wrote in

853

English, Lydia Helia, and a book

is called Slanting Towards the Sea.

854

It's a novel set, around

zadar it's a great story.

855

beautifully told, really well written.

856

And, it really does give you

some interesting insights

857

into the creation mindset.

858

Daniel Edward: What is your top food or

859

drink to try in Croatia?

860

, Mary Novakovich: My favourite drink is,

Akia, which is generic word for brandy.

861

all different types of brandy.

862

You can have fruit brandies, you

can have walnut, herbal brandies.

863

That's, that's pretty good.

864

Any, any one of those?

865

Who do you have gupa,

their version of gupa?

866

food, well, I mentioned pleva.

867

I mean, one of the loveliest things

is just some grilled fish in bleep va.

868

Daniel Edward: And final question.

869

If you're heading to Croatia,

you wanna bring something home

870

of Ament from your time there?

871

Uh, you don't particularly

want it to be made in China.

872

You want it to be

873

authentic and local.

874

What should you keep an eye out for?

875

Mary Novakovich: So much of, the

coast produces olive oil and they

876

make some very, very good olive oils.

877

And if you can buy a

bottle of that, that's

878

definitely worth bringing

879

Daniel Edward: Marian Kovich,

travel writer and author of the

880

award-Winning My Family and Other

Enemies Alive and Travels in Croatia

881

Hinterland.

882

Thank you so much for

unlocking Croatia for

883

us today.

884

Mary Novakovich: It's been my

885

pleasure.

886

Thank you

887

for having me.

888

Daniel Edward: coincidentally,

Croatia is next on my travel list,

889

so I'm gonna be putting many of

those tips into practise pretty soon.

890

Thank you once again to Mary Kovich,

fantastically insightful conversation

891

there about Croatia's wonderful coastline.

892

I'd love to hear your

tips and tricks as well.

893

And if you visited or visit

soon, do get in touch.

894

Drop me a message, tell

me how your trip goes.

895

If you haven't yet followed

Destination unlocked, maybe this

896

was your first time finding us.

897

Do make sure to click follow wherever

you're currently listening to this

898

episode, , and that way you'll be

able to easily find us again the

899

next time you want to go armchair

travelling somewhere wonderful.

900

I'll see you then.

901

Bye-bye.