What does it take to truly collaborate?

How can leaders create environments where diverse perspectives are valued, trust is nurtured, and meaningful conversations drive innovation? 

Finding Your Collaborative Edge™ is a podcast for leaders, teams, and professionals who want to unlock the full potential of collaboration in their organisations and lives.

Hosted by Anni Townend and Lucy Kidd, co-founders of Collaboration Equation™, this show explores the essential elements of psychological safety, inclusive dialogue, and diversity of thought and feeling—helping you cultivate a mindset of curiosity, care, and courage.

Each episode delves into real-world leadership challenges, expert insights, and powerful stories from those who are finding their Collaborative Edge™. Whether you’re a senior leader, team manager, or someone passionate about creating human-centred workplaces, this podcast will inspire you to build connections, embrace difference, and lead with authenticity.

Join the conversation and start your journey towards more impactful, collaborative leadership.

Find out more at: www.collaborationequation.com

Follow us on LinkedIn: Collaboration Equation

ABOUT THIS EPISODE:

In this episode we are delighted to be in conversation with Kat Parsons, Group Head of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion at Centrica

Together we explore:

• The power of open questions to create connection and build trust
• How diversity metrics can get in the way of inclusive behaviours—and how to move beyond them
• What it means to invite others to feel what it’s like for someone else
• Finding freedom in career change and personal rebranding
• The courage it takes to step aside, so others can step forward
• Knowing when, and how, to ask for help—and to receive it

Kat’s three encouragements to invite you to explore your Collaborative Edge™:

1. Find the areas you are less comfortable with, get curious and immerse yourself 
2. Notice the differences between you and others and create some flex to meet each other well
3. Real success is seeing others find their voice to step up and lead the way

About Kat:

Kat is the Group Head of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion for Centrica, a thought leader who has experience driving company wide cultural change and inclusion where all colleagues feel they belong - Every Colleague Counts: Powering Inclusion: Fuelling Change.

Kat’s passion and drive for change led her to join the Fellowship of Leaders, appear on the HIVE Top 75 D&I leads in EMEA and the WiTHL Women to Watch list, The Pride Power List is 2023 and 2024 as well as multiple Head of D&I Awards. Kat’s work supported ISS receiving a highly Commended commendation at the European Diversity Awards.

Connect and collaborate with Kat:

On LinkedIn

On Instagram

Learn about Centrica : https://www.linkedin.com/company/centrica/ 

Learn about Work Boutique : https://www.linkedin.com/company/work-boutique/ 

In this conversation we referenced Diversity Umbrella and Meno vests 

Thank you to you, the listener and viewer. And a huge thank you to Brown Bear Studios for the production of our show, to SHMOGUS Media and Pennywriting for the marketing of it.

Please share, subscribe and continue to join us in Finding Your Collaborative Edge™. 

Anni Townend:

Hello and welcome to Finding Your Collaborative Edge, the podcast for leaders, teams and professionals who want to unlock the full potential of collaboration in their organisations and lives.

Anni Townend:

Hosted by Anni Townend and Lucy Kidd, together with our guests, we explore what it means to truly collaborate through their insights and experiences of finding their own collaborative edge where more is possible together than alone.

Anni Townend:

In this episode, we are delighted to be in conversation with Kat Parsons,

Anni Townend:

Group Head of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion with Centrica.

Anni Townend:

Kat, a very warm welcome to you.

Kat Parsons:

Thank you for having me.

Anni Townend:

We're delighted to have you.

Anni Townend:

And we would like to start with a question about who you are.

Anni Townend:

And we often invite people to say something about who they are through their name

Anni Townend:

and as a way of getting to know you and who you really are, Kat.

Kat Parsons:

so Kat or Katherine but only my mother now calls me Katherine uh usually because I was in trouble

Kat Parsons:

um but yeah Kat my dad calls me Kat bird which is uh which is slightly odd and the reason for that

Kat Parsons:

is I'm not very good at remembering people's names so once your name is in my head I will know you for

Kat Parsons:

the rest of my life excellent so at university school I won bird so my dad calls me Kat bird

Kat Parsons:

which I think is quite nice even to this day my surname was Maiston I was Kat Maiston for

Kat Parsons:

quite a number of years and then I met my wonderful now wife Fee, Fiona and the first

Kat Parsons:

opportunity I jumped at the chance to change my name to Kat Parson so KP. Rebrand, that's what I

Kat Parsons:

liked. And how long have you been married to Fee? Seven years this year. Amazing. I'm together for

Anni Townend:

ten. Wonderful and you are in the middle of a big major project together. Yes we are yes we are

Kat Parsons:

not doing things by halves.

Kat Parsons:

So as well as both having very busy full-time jobs,

Kat Parsons:

two kids and a dog,

Kat Parsons:

we're also renovating our house

Kat Parsons:

and not just a bit of sort of new skirting board and paint.

Kat Parsons:

We've literally ripped the entire thing to pieces.

Kat Parsons:

At one point, we only had a front wall and a back wall

Kat Parsons:

and everything else in the house had disappeared.

Kat Parsons:

So yeah, just a bit of tinkering really.

Anni Townend:

Amazing.

Anni Townend:

And we're going to hear more about

Anni Townend:

how you collaborate with people as we go along.

Lucy Kidd:

Well, I thought we might just dive straight in there actually.

Lucy Kidd:

We normally start with the professional role and how collaboration works at work.

Lucy Kidd:

But I'm guessing that yourself and Fee have had to pull out all the stops on really, truly partnering and collaboration and working through all the struggles and challenges that home renovation brings.

Lucy Kidd:

What are you learning together about what true collaboration really means?

Kat Parsons:

Yeah, it's definitely not a small project.

Kat Parsons:

I think so I'm construction background and I can tell you more about that later.

Kat Parsons:

So I know the industry very, very well, very male dominated.

Kat Parsons:

I've always worked in male dominated spaces.

Kat Parsons:

And Fee is equally construction background.

Kat Parsons:

And that's sort of how we met.

Kat Parsons:

In our old house, we'd sort of done bits and pieces.

Kat Parsons:

We love getting our hands dirty and trying new things.

Kat Parsons:

We decided that we wanted an absolute shack of a house to sort of rip to pieces.

Kat Parsons:

So we found this amazing house, an absolute shack, but stunning in terms of its location.

Kat Parsons:

It was actually Fee's idea.

Kat Parsons:

Usually I'm the one that comes up with these crazy ideas.

Kat Parsons:

But Fee said it'd be really good, given our backgrounds, that we try and do the entire build with an all-female team.

Kat Parsons:

So I was like, I'm in.

Kat Parsons:

Like, let's have a go.

Kat Parsons:

So through our networks, through collaborating, we managed to get a team of 36 women together for the design element, just with people we knew, recommended other people.

Kat Parsons:

It was so good to have sort of team meetings where all of a sudden, instead of being the only woman in the room, it was all women in the room.

Kat Parsons:

Amazing.

Kat Parsons:

And to be able to have the different energy as well.

Kat Parsons:

So if there was an issue, you know, especially in building it, there's always a and you think, oh, no, there's going to be issues.

Kat Parsons:

And there's a lot of signs going on.

Kat Parsons:

Yeah. And you're like, oh, no, how are we going to do this?

Kat Parsons:

But it was so different. You know, we had like our structural engineer, Holly, was like, right, I can hear what you're saying here.

Kat Parsons:

Anni, who was our M&E consultant, what I can do is.

Kat Parsons:

And there was all this sort of like flex.

Kat Parsons:

And within five minutes between our architect as well, Marta, they'd fix the issue.

Kat Parsons:

And we were like, oh, OK, you know, I was ready for like a bit of a sort of roll your sleeves up.

Kat Parsons:

How are we going to do this? But yeah, it all sort of happened.

Kat Parsons:

So that collaboration then spread into the trade side of things.

Kat Parsons:

And we are hopefully moving in by Christmas as long as the pace continues that we're going out.

Kat Parsons:

But yeah.

Anni Townend:

Well, I hope you are in by Christmas.

Anni Townend:

That would be wonderful because I think you and your children are living in a caravan at the moment on site.

Anni Townend:

Yes.

Anni Townend:

So that must be absolutely the art of collaboration.

Anni Townend:

but you just described how together with the the women that you brought to 36 women

Anni Townend:

women in construction came together what did you notice about the kind of behaviors that

Kat Parsons:

facilitated that collaboration yeah so it's it's been really interesting because in terms of the

Kat Parsons:

construction industry 14 of the industry are female and one percent are women on tools so it was we

Kat Parsons:

always knew this was going to be like you know we've not made things easier for ourselves you

Kat Parsons:

have literally just gone to sort of bob the build around the corner and got an off-the-shelf solution

Kat Parsons:

but every single woman that worked on the project we asked them like what do you love about your job

Anni Townend:

lovely what is like your biggest pain point like what's the thing that just really grinds your gears

Kat Parsons:

that you just think what you know why and almost like what's that experience when you rock up on

Kat Parsons:

site and it's like oh oh there's a woman on site because fee and i have our own experiences of you

Kat Parsons:

know well varied experiences of being on sites from positive and quite a lot of negatives but it was

Kat Parsons:

interesting you know I've been off site for 10 years now probably and the things that the team

Kat Parsons:

were raising are still things that I was struggling with when I was on site so the toilet facilities

Kat Parsons:

then being sort of locked and having to go and ask for a key or the PPE is like you know personal

Kat Parsons:

protective equipment is like too big so you've you're wearing men's overalls so your crotch is

Kat Parsons:

around your knees your your sleeves are sort of you know dangling you look like you're wearing your

Kat Parsons:

dad's you know outfits um which is not professional and it's not safe especially when you're in charge

Kat Parsons:

of sites and stuff so again these sorts of things are being raised and also that sort of raised

Kat Parsons:

eyebrows of you know sort of site engineers or you know site managers sort of like oh you know are

Kat Parsons:

you qualified to do this you know you hear us you know an apprentice or you know oh no i'm in charge

Kat Parsons:

you know those sorts of almost being underestimated is something that came up quite a lot so disappointing

Lucy Kidd:

that some of the same issues are still there 10 years on and interesting on a couple of levels

Lucy Kidd:

from our perspective in terms of collaboration,

Lucy Kidd:

some of the work that we bring and invite and encourage.

Lucy Kidd:

So we always start with safety.

Lucy Kidd:

These days it's psychological safety and physical safety,

Lucy Kidd:

kind of hand in hand.

Lucy Kidd:

So some issues that you're talking about there around physical safety.

Lucy Kidd:

And we know that you've done something to try and drive change around that

Lucy Kidd:

in terms of the equipment, but also the, I want to say, costume, clothing.

Lucy Kidd:

Costume, yeah, right.

Lucy Kidd:

Sometimes it feels like a costume.

Lucy Kidd:

and that was the image

Lucy Kidd:

that was in my head

Lucy Kidd:

as you were describing

Lucy Kidd:

that feeling in that

Lucy Kidd:

big oversized clothing

Lucy Kidd:

must feel like wearing a costume

Lucy Kidd:

rather than really being you

Lucy Kidd:

and being able to bring

Lucy Kidd:

and professional

Lucy Kidd:

yeah

Lucy Kidd:

what do you call it

Lucy Kidd:

clothing

Kat Parsons:

yeah I suppose it is

Kat Parsons:

clothing or equipment

Kat Parsons:

yeah

Kat Parsons:

personal protective equipment

Kat Parsons:

yeah so

Kat Parsons:

as well as

Kat Parsons:

renovating the house

Kat Parsons:

and trying to do it

Kat Parsons:

with the all female team

Kat Parsons:

and and

Kat Parsons:

and and

Kat Parsons:

we decided that again

Kat Parsons:

it sort of grew

Kat Parsons:

arms and legs a little bit

Kat Parsons:

so when we were looking

Kat Parsons:

at the kit

Kat Parsons:

the clothing that we were

Kat Parsons:

wearing on site

Kat Parsons:

we were like

Kat Parsons:

well actually

Kat Parsons:

it would be great

Kat Parsons:

to showcase what is on the market now.

Kat Parsons:

So we partnered with a company called Work Boutique

Kat Parsons:

who had literally only started,

Kat Parsons:

there was two sisters that run this family organisation

Kat Parsons:

and this was their sort of like new venture of,

Kat Parsons:

actually they'd seen a gap in the market

Kat Parsons:

and instead of having to go to individual,

Kat Parsons:

you know, clothing makers, PPE providers

Kat Parsons:

to get like, I prefer these trousers and that top

Kat Parsons:

and these sort of things,

Kat Parsons:

they sort of combined into one place.

Kat Parsons:

So we were literally at sort of, you know,

Kat Parsons:

about to press go on the project,

Kat Parsons:

ready for the beginning of 2025.

Kat Parsons:

and I had this sort of link with someone that I knew.

Kat Parsons:

And so I met Sophie and she said, like, it would be great to get the whole crew,

Kat Parsons:

you know, properly kitted out to really showcase what you can have.

Kat Parsons:

Well, we had, I mean, at that point it was winter.

Kat Parsons:

So we were everything from, you know, beanies.

Kat Parsons:

Everyone had, you know, their own rain jackets, different trousers, boots.

Kat Parsons:

You know, we had so many different brands of boots.

Kat Parsons:

And the idea was, you know, go and test it.

Kat Parsons:

Don't just sort of dress up basically and be like, oh, thanks for this.

Kat Parsons:

It was give us the feedback so we can go back to the manufacturers.

Kat Parsons:

And it was things like sizing as well.

Kat Parsons:

We were all so different shapes and sizes.

Kat Parsons:

I'm 5'9".

Kat Parsons:

Our main builder, Yaz, was probably touching five foot.

Kat Parsons:

You know, she was absolutely tiny.

Kat Parsons:

But, you know, we managed to find kit that fitted for everyone.

Kat Parsons:

And it was, again, something that's so basic.

Kat Parsons:

We should be able to get kit that fits.

Kat Parsons:

Like, this is for safety, as you say.

Kat Parsons:

So that was a great collaboration.

Kat Parsons:

Again, as soon as summer months started, we had shorts, we had, you know, T-shirts,

Kat Parsons:

everything that we needed to be sort of kitted out.

Kat Parsons:

So, again, the whole team were all branded up, which was brilliant.

Anni Townend:

and there's a real sense there of feeling confident and like you said professional as well and that

Anni Townend:

i belong here there's something there isn't there around belonging rather than having to fit into

Kat Parsons:

clothes and equipment that isn't made for you yeah and practical and it's made for somebody else

Kat Parsons:

in pink why does everything have to be in pink i look at home no actually i'm ginger so i'd actually

Kat Parsons:

look quite good in pink but i don't wear like that's not i don't need to have pink boots and

Kat Parsons:

pink hard hat that's not that's it's not about making people look different it's about providing

Anni Townend:

with the kit so that again make exactly what you say yeah and the irony that wearing oversized

Anni Townend:

things that don't fit actually probably make you unsafe on site rather than feeling safe

Kat Parsons:

slopping around yeah you know the amount of times i'd sort of be tripping over myself

Kat Parsons:

because you know the kit the kit didn't fit and that went into my world when i joined

Kat Parsons:

and Centrica is British Gas, that was one of the first things we looked at,

Kat Parsons:

was again making sure that our engineers weren't just sort of wearing men's kit.

Kat Parsons:

So now that we've got maternity wear, we've got all sorts,

Kat Parsons:

because again, it's a basic requirement that we should have.

Kat Parsons:

It's often those basics that get overlooked though, isn't it?

Lucy Kidd:

And we find that, you know, sort of moving on from the physical safety side

Lucy Kidd:

to the psychological safety side, that basic need, human need,

Lucy Kidd:

it's all about working at the human level rather than just thinking about the job roles and the titles,

Lucy Kidd:

But that basic need that we all have as humans to feel well met, to feel seen and heard.

Lucy Kidd:

And we can't always feel totally understood, but we can feel accepted and welcomed and respected.

Lucy Kidd:

And what are some of the ways that you're bringing that into your role at Centrica?

Lucy Kidd:

What are you finding that's working? What are the challenges? What's helping?

Lucy Kidd:

Yeah, there's a few things. So I think, again, I absolutely have no qualifications in diversity inclusion at all.

Kat Parsons:

So don't tell anyone that.

Kat Parsons:

But in terms of my background, my construction then into health and safety is where I pivoted my career.

Kat Parsons:

And I found with health and safety, there was a sort of, again, it was, first of all, I was female, so I got an eye roll.

Kat Parsons:

Secondly, your health and safety, that gets another eye roll.

Kat Parsons:

So I was double eye rolled when I was arriving on site.

Kat Parsons:

But I found that, again, in terms of that sort of connection with people and to get change to happen,

Kat Parsons:

if I could get someone, you know, right, OK, how are you feeling today?

Kat Parsons:

you know oh you know what is the biggest thing that is a pain in your behind whilst you're trying

Kat Parsons:

to get this work done is it the amount of paperwork is it the kit you're wearing is it the you know

Kat Parsons:

what is it that's that's really sort of holding you back and if i could get that out of them and

Kat Parsons:

then prove to them that i could then fix that so it was almost i found it a bit of a game in terms

Kat Parsons:

of being able to get have that connection tell me what the issue is now i'll put it through the

Kat Parsons:

system because once it's in the system it has to be fixed so it was that kind of it's logged logged

Kat Parsons:

once it's logged if you know it's got you know it's got to go through the process so that's what i

Kat Parsons:

sort of found in terms of that sort of connection piece and i think that's then when i've moved

Kat Parsons:

through you know i sort of fell into diversity inclusion someone sort of said do you fancy this

Kat Parsons:

i said sounds a bit fluffy to me which is my biggest regret ever i was i'm not a fluffy person

Kat Parsons:

i'm you know i'm all about process and i'm all about finance and i've had these hard skills in

Kat Parsons:

these male environments so yeah so i initially turned the job down saying that i wasn't a you

Kat Parsons:

know a fluffy sort of individual and all these emotions and things i'm the most empathetic person

Kat Parsons:

there is but i found it was almost like a weakness but again using that in my role now you know i you

Kat Parsons:

know one of the events i did recently i get given a lot of sort of like can you come and do like 10

Kat Parsons:

minutes and have a bit of a you know keynote on whatever and uh 10 minutes is not very long to be

Kat Parsons:

able to connect with people and i do march up and down the stage and i do say things that people kind

Kat Parsons:

of go oh like to sort of grab attention and i decided to sort of just spread my wings slightly

Kat Parsons:

and I strapped some of our male colleagues into men-o-vests.

Kat Parsons:

I don't know if you've heard of men-o-vests.

Kat Parsons:

So these are like, basically it's like a gilet and it's skin tight

Kat Parsons:

and it goes all the way up, right up to sort of under your chin

Kat Parsons:

and you're basically sort of strapped in.

Kat Parsons:

And it simulates menopausal flushes and it's randomly timed.

Kat Parsons:

So I had three male leaders that were sort of, I'd sort of voluntold,

Kat Parsons:

you know, it'd be great if you sort of, you know,

Kat Parsons:

used your position in the organisation.

Kat Parsons:

You know, this is not a joke.

Kat Parsons:

This is sort of, you know, what our female colleagues are experiencing.

Kat Parsons:

So off they went, you know, into this big conference and strapped up.

Kat Parsons:

I was sort of like, oh, what are they wearing?

Kat Parsons:

What's going on here?

Kat Parsons:

So I did my sort of up and down the stage.

Kat Parsons:

And I said, you may notice that a few of your colleagues

Kat Parsons:

were wearing a slightly different outfit today.

Kat Parsons:

And these guys were literally on fire.

Kat Parsons:

Like you could sit there, we're shifting in their seats.

Kat Parsons:

And we kept sort of checking back in with them every now and again

Kat Parsons:

to say, you know, how are you feeling?

Kat Parsons:

And this guy was like, I can't concentrate.

Kat Parsons:

Like I can feel it coming on.

Kat Parsons:

So again, in terms of that empathy of someone else's situation,

Kat Parsons:

But, you know, that's been absolutely golden for me to just, you know, allow someone to walk in someone else's shoes for a bit because I can talk and talk and talk.

Kat Parsons:

But, you know, if you can really get someone else to sort of feel how someone else is feeling, even for an hour, I think that's where real change happens.

Anni Townend:

That's really good. And in terms of empathy, what I noticed is when people come on site, you say to the women, what do you love about what you do?

Anni Townend:

So you start with a question. So you start with that curiosity. And I can picture you striding up and down the stage and people being very curious about why are they wearing those things and having that experience and bringing it out into the open and being able to talk about the experience together.

Anni Townend:

I think is so, so important. But starting with the question, you know, what do you love about what you do? And again, at Centrica, you asking the question, so tell me what are the pain points? What's really hard for you? And inviting people to share their experience.

Anni Townend:

And that demonstrates care and they're sharing something of themselves which takes courage.

Anni Townend:

And it's something which is so important to us in how we encourage people to collaborate with each other.

Anni Townend:

And it is about empathy and human connection and acting on it quickly rather than waiting for it to happen.

Kat Parsons:

That's it. Yeah, I think you're right.

Kat Parsons:

And again, you know, as you sort of I found this in my career, you know, as sort of you work under different leaders,

Kat Parsons:

you'll pick up bits that, you know, are good and not so good.

Kat Parsons:

And sometimes I've found that, you know,

Kat Parsons:

the leaders that I've worked under have been very, you know,

Kat Parsons:

they've been promoted because they're great at finance

Kat Parsons:

and they're great at this and they're great at...

Kat Parsons:

But in terms of that sort of people part, you know,

Kat Parsons:

business is people, majority of the time.

Kat Parsons:

Every environment I've worked in has been people focused.

Kat Parsons:

But I think sometimes people aren't trained in people.

Kat Parsons:

And having that connection is, I think, very difficult for some people

Kat Parsons:

because I think people sometimes feel there's a line of like,

Kat Parsons:

well, that's personal, that's outside of work.

Kat Parsons:

don't ask. Whereas we're saying bring all of it, bring all of you. You know, I want to know whether

Kat Parsons:

you've had, you know, my wife's menopausal, Fee's menopausal. She struggles a lot. She shouldn't

Kat Parsons:

have to leave that at home. You know, she should be able to go into work and say, I've had a crap

Kat Parsons:

nice sleep. Like Kat's been winding me up because she's a hundred miles an hour. I can't keep up.

Kat Parsons:

You know, she should be able to say that and then have that sort of empathy in the workplace that

Kat Parsons:

again allows her to thrive and have space. What do you do when you meet resistance? So you're kind

Lucy Kidd:

know if you're there you're wanting to encourage these conversations you've got the questions you're

Lucy Kidd:

building the connection and you're encouraging people to bring their whole selves into the

Lucy Kidd:

into the conversation into work to share all of them what do you do when you meet resistance how

Lucy Kidd:

do you stay curious caring and courageous in those moments um resist i i love a challenge

Kat Parsons:

i am a nightmare i think that's why again i've probably chosen the career path i have

Kat Parsons:

in terms of I love a tight deadline, a tight budget, a pain in the ass client.

Kat Parsons:

I love it when things aren't necessarily easy,

Kat Parsons:

which is probably why we're renovating our houses we are.

Kat Parsons:

But I find that a personal challenge.

Kat Parsons:

If things were too easy and things sort of coasted,

Kat Parsons:

either they're not landing properly and it's all surface level,

Kat Parsons:

you're not going to get systemic change if it's just going to roll over, I think.

Kat Parsons:

Because again, in terms of people's biases and people can say things.

Kat Parsons:

I think that's one of the things I've noticed as well, again, is in terms of leaders saying,

Kat Parsons:

oh, can you just provide me with something to say?

Kat Parsons:

Just, you know, give me the, and I'll just read the cue card out that you've provided.

Kat Parsons:

And I'm like, no, no, you need to understand what it is and live and breathe and believe

Kat Parsons:

in the words coming out of your mouth as opposed to what Kat has told me to read out loud.

Kat Parsons:

But that resistance, I'm constantly curious.

Kat Parsons:

And I've very much ingrained that to my kids who ask far too many questions now about a lot of topics.

Kat Parsons:

I think it's nice to see them doing that at home and they hear me talk about this stuff all the time.

Kat Parsons:

And I think actually that allows me again in terms of that connection in the workplace.

Kat Parsons:

You know, that's the next level coming up.

Kat Parsons:

And I've brought my daughter into work more than once for British Gas.

Kat Parsons:

And she has a little British Gas T-shirt and she strides up and down the stage as well brilliantly.

Kat Parsons:

And again, to be able to hear her talk about some of these topics.

Kat Parsons:

Some of the leaders, you know, male leaders in the room have been like, you know, that was actually inspiring.

Kat Parsons:

And I was, you know, slightly, I'm supposed to be the one who's being paid for this, but, you know, to hear her talk about, you know, how important inclusion is from her point of view and what diversity means to her and what the world looks like from her point of view.

Kat Parsons:

But I think it's trying to make, if there is resistance, what is the root cause? That's my health and safety background. What's the root cause of that resistance and how do you then unlock that?

Lucy Kidd:

because everyone's got a story to share often we find that the what seems to be the resistance on

Lucy Kidd:

the surface actually isn't what the real issue is you say what's the root cause get into conversation

Lucy Kidd:

build the connection ask the next question and the next question and the next question

Lucy Kidd:

that old kind of what are the five whys to get another practical perspective but to do that you

Lucy Kidd:

certainly what we find is building the trust building the safety is so important first so

Lucy Kidd:

sometimes we might share something about us or share something about when we've experienced

Lucy Kidd:

resistance or kind of not wanted to do something or felt really nervous when we first started this

Lucy Kidd:

podcast I don't speak from my own experience but I was not happy speaking to camera and then

Lucy Kidd:

suddenly six months down the line with coaching support encouragement kind of talking still feel

Lucy Kidd:

anxious and still don't quite know where the conversation is going to go but the the sort of

Lucy Kidd:

the mission and our quest to invite more curiosity, care and courage into the world is more important

Lucy Kidd:

than that moment of uncertainty of not knowing. So I think, again, sort of building the trust,

Lucy Kidd:

but also being connected to that bigger purpose, that higher reason. What's your sort of big

Kat Parsons:

purpose, big mission that brings your courage? I think courage is really different. I think I'm

Kat Parsons:

quite, I'm not phased by a lot now. And I think that's because of, again, career path and experiences

Kat Parsons:

and all sorts of things.

Kat Parsons:

So nothing really knocks me too much now,

Kat Parsons:

which is nice.

Kat Parsons:

So it's then sort of sharing with others

Kat Parsons:

how, again, it's that sort of comfortable thing.

Kat Parsons:

I will say something

Kat Parsons:

that is completely outrageous first,

Kat Parsons:

which then everyone else goes,

Kat Parsons:

oh, okay, well, she said that.

Kat Parsons:

So it's fine.

Kat Parsons:

But I did an event not that long ago,

Kat Parsons:

again, with British Gas.

Kat Parsons:

And, you know, in terms of my job title,

Kat Parsons:

diversity, equity, inclusion.

Kat Parsons:

And when I arrived at Centrica,

Kat Parsons:

it was very diversity focused.

Kat Parsons:

It was about targets and numbers.

Kat Parsons:

And, you know, we've got to hit these metrics.

Kat Parsons:

and I think they'd sort of forgotten what inclusion was.

Kat Parsons:

So they were being quite excluding with their sort of strategy.

Kat Parsons:

And we are, you know, we're British Gas, we are engineers in vans

Kat Parsons:

and, you know, majority of our workforce is male.

Kat Parsons:

So I did an event, all the British Gas engineers meet up in sort of local village halls and stuff

Kat Parsons:

to do various safety things and get vans checked and stuff.

Kat Parsons:

So I got myself an invite to come and just sort of hang out with these guys for an hour

Kat Parsons:

and no agenda.

Kat Parsons:

And they were like, oh, Kat from head office is coming.

Kat Parsons:

They were like, who is this Kat from head office?

Kat Parsons:

So I got introduced on stage.

Kat Parsons:

It was like a very small stage in this village hall.

Kat Parsons:

And this sort of area manager was like,

Kat Parsons:

cat's here to talk about diversity and things.

Kat Parsons:

And obviously look at the state of us.

Kat Parsons:

We're 25 white guys between the age of 26 and 66.

Kat Parsons:

So I was like, wow, that's a tough intro.

Kat Parsons:

Thanks for that.

Kat Parsons:

know you've already sort of shot me down before I've even opened my mouth but I sort of again I

Kat Parsons:

was talking about uh fee being menopausal a lot of them had wives and partners I was talking about

Kat Parsons:

my son being autistic ADHD and how parenting I'm parenting two completely different beings one who

Kat Parsons:

is sharp as a tack who's you know 11 uh and Rowan my son who's ADHD autistic and I've you know

Kat Parsons:

that's difficult I you know I do clash with him there's a way of managing him so again he's

Kat Parsons:

thriving and I'm not pulling my hair out so I sort of sharing sharing sharing and then very quickly

Kat Parsons:

they were sort of I said you know have you got any questions you know then there's questions all the

Kat Parsons:

time and you know they were saying oh you can we'll get shot down we'll get you know it's that

Kat Parsons:

cancel culture well you know you're going to report us for saying something I said no like literally

Kat Parsons:

just hit me like what have you got to say and then very quickly it was like can we say queer

Kat Parsons:

and I was like well well don't like shout it at someone but like if someone identifies as queer

Kat Parsons:

then you can use that.

Kat Parsons:

Why do we have pronouns?

Kat Parsons:

So we did a bit of a chat about pronouns.

Kat Parsons:

There was a, can I say hermaphrodite?

Kat Parsons:

I was like, well actually it's intersex

Kat Parsons:

and intersex is this and blah, blah, blah.

Kat Parsons:

So very quickly they were all asking all these questions

Kat Parsons:

and the one about the word queer,

Kat Parsons:

there was two guys sat next to each other

Kat Parsons:

and they'd started on the same day 25 years previously

Kat Parsons:

so they'd known each other inside and out.

Kat Parsons:

And this guy said, oh this is great,

Kat Parsons:

I'm going to bring my brother on the way home

Kat Parsons:

and tell him I can call him queer.

Kat Parsons:

And then the guy next to him looked around and he said, we've worked together for 25 years and I didn't know your brother was gay.

Kat Parsons:

And he said, oh, it just never came up in conversation.

Kat Parsons:

I was thinking, what have you two been talking about for 25 years if that, you know, if you not talked about your family and all sorts.

Kat Parsons:

So, again, it was like wildfire.

Kat Parsons:

So, again, just giving them that sort of courage to say, like, hit me, you're not going to get, you know, told off or reported or anything.

Kat Parsons:

Just ask me the question that's burning and then I'll answer it.

Kat Parsons:

Wonderful.

Kat Parsons:

And then you'll know.

Kat Parsons:

So that's worked brilliantly.

Anni Townend:

really good technique. And what you're describing there is that you gave courage to them to ask

Anni Townend:

questions that maybe they were frightened of asking for getting it wrong. But through your

Anni Townend:

sharing your personal experience and being very open and that kind of being vulnerable in your

Anni Townend:

courage to share everything, what it's like being a parent to your autistic son, what it's like for

Anni Townend:

going through menopause, what it's like for you, being in that room with all that going on,

Anni Townend:

gave permission for others to be open and to share their experience and to ask the questions.

Anni Townend:

So that back to that safety, creating that safe environment, but also being very inclusive of

Anni Townend:

people and of inviting them in, you know, saying, ask me your questions.

Kat Parsons:

and it's not it doesn't need to be heavy as well I think that sometimes people feel that

Kat Parsons:

conversations we really like right it's very serious that's all you know I always throw humor

Kat Parsons:

and I find it's the best way to connect with people and there was a really nice again same

Kat Parsons:

situation this guy was uh sort of saying about how his nephew was transitioning to be his niece

Kat Parsons:

so everyone was like oh this is interesting everyone turns around and sort of listens to

Kat Parsons:

this guy and he said oh and he went to an old boys school so we're looking for our money back now

Kat Parsons:

because he's transitioning to be a girl of course they were all like falling over themselves after

Kat Parsons:

they realised it was safe for them to sort of he'd made a joke they all laughed but again it was it

Kat Parsons:

just sort of lightened it and then they were all asking questions of each other and brilliant it

Kat Parsons:

doesn't need to be yeah like a such a heavy topic and it's such a difficult climate at the minute

Kat Parsons:

for it with all this sort of woke this and everything else yeah it's just about connection

Anni Townend:

and inclusion and creating that environment in which people can be connected to each other and

Anni Townend:

share their real lived experiences and not have to leave like you were saying about fee not having

Anni Townend:

to leave that she's menopausal at home and pretend she's something else it's tiring pretending to be

Anni Townend:

somebody else oh it is yeah yeah and especially from a sexuality point of view again it is it was

Kat Parsons:

always so tiring on site when you sort of you know what does your husband do yeah right okay you know

Kat Parsons:

how do you navigate that you know you just sort of tipped her around pronouns it was it was

Kat Parsons:

exhausting and I think someone asked me before whether I felt it had limited my career from

Kat Parsons:

you know being sort of hidden and leaving my version at home and then being me in the workplace

Kat Parsons:

and I think having reflected on that I think it probably did if I had have been just who I am

Kat Parsons:

yeah but you know I wouldn't have to waste so much energy on trying to be someone else or a version

Anni Townend:

I thought people would find more palatable and you mentioned at the very beginning of our

Anni Townend:

conversation that you'd leapt at the opportunity to change your name and rebrand can you say a bit

Anni Townend:

more about that was that part of that claiming this is who I am at home and at work I think so

Kat Parsons:

yeah I think yeah you know I'd gone almost I think I was so almost obsessive about you know I was

Kat Parsons:

Kat Maiston and I almost had a not a brand it's not the right word but like people knew who I was

Kat Parsons:

in the environment I was working in in construction environment etc and I almost was sort of so

Kat Parsons:

obsessed with the fact that I could not possibly change my name because people were like well who's

Kat Parsons:

who's that like I almost felt I needed to keep it and then it took me quite a long time and I was a

Kat Parsons:

bit like I don't need like again it I think had so much sort of baggage or background of yeah trying

Kat Parsons:

to work out who I was all of a sudden when I had this opportunity it was I'd made a career change

Kat Parsons:

as well like a drastic career change and I just thought I don't need to be Kat masted anymore with

Kat Parsons:

all that sort of background and stuff I just thought right I'll just new career I'll embrace

Kat Parsons:

being KP instead of instead of KM and and I absolutely I think I think it mentally was really

Kat Parsons:

good for me as much as I was like I don't need to change this this is not you know in terms of

Kat Parsons:

you know same-sex relationship or anything I was not conforming or anything else I didn't want a

Kat Parsons:

double barrel I just felt that yeah just have that complete sort of fresh start I think I just really

Lucy Kidd:

like that it sounds like that brought some freedom as well for you how did that come through when as

Kat Parsons:

you stepped into that new role I loved it I absolutely loved it I was like yeah it was

Kat Parsons:

almost like I'd sort of not that I dissolved who I was like obviously you know it brought me to where

Kat Parsons:

I was but I just felt I was just suddenly had this blank sheet of paper so I you know new industry

Kat Parsons:

new career I'd learned a lot but I'd almost like right done that that's that chapter done and now

Kat Parsons:

this is this is what Kat Parsons is going to be and what what do I want to do I think it's that

Kat Parsons:

point as well you know when you you know it was it was tough getting through construction industry

Kat Parsons:

into positions I'm highly ambitious I'm very driven I'm very competitive my kids never ever

Kat Parsons:

win a board game because I'm on them and I don't think that's a bad thing I don't think it's a bad

Kat Parsons:

thing to be competitive you know I don't push anyone else down to be able to push myself up you know I

Kat Parsons:

will bring people along with me but you know it was nice to have that sort of moment in time to be

Kat Parsons:

like right who do I want to be what are the values what are the things that really make me tick

Kat Parsons:

to get myself in a career where I just spring out of bed in the morning most mornings um but it's

Kat Parsons:

definitely tough like working you know being paid professionally in diverse inclusion is

Kat Parsons:

tough because people offload and they tell you the most horrendous things about their situations

Kat Parsons:

and all sorts and it's almost like right how do you fix that and I think I like that fixing I like

Kat Parsons:

to sort of problem solve and then but it's a lot when it's someone's well-being is is affected by it

Lucy Kidd:

And one of the things that's really important to us in the work we do is helping people find their way through as well.

Lucy Kidd:

So that's sort of that driver to fix.

Lucy Kidd:

I'm a rescuer from childhood.

Lucy Kidd:

There's a whole story there, as there is for many of us.

Lucy Kidd:

And I know I certainly have to catch myself from stepping in and fixing and rescuing with my kids,

Lucy Kidd:

with the leaders and teams we're working with, with friends,

Lucy Kidd:

and finding a way to really encourage people to self-sustain

Lucy Kidd:

and navigate their way through.

Lucy Kidd:

What's that like for you in the role when people do share?

Lucy Kidd:

I'm going to put that back on you, actually.

Kat Parsons:

I find that really interesting.

Kat Parsons:

So I have to catch myself, because I'm a fixer,

Kat Parsons:

if someone will come to me and they'll say,

Kat Parsons:

and I'm like, right, you could do this, this, this, this.

Kat Parsons:

And sometimes I have to go, no.

Kat Parsons:

Like, you tell me how you think you're going to fix it.

Kat Parsons:

And again, with my kids, I'm constantly like, right,

Kat Parsons:

I'll email school and I will, no, no, no, actually,

Kat Parsons:

No, you can do that.

Kat Parsons:

You can do that.

Kat Parsons:

You know, trying to sort of give them the skills.

Kat Parsons:

Having been a rescuer, that must be quite difficult because obviously in terms of that empathy to be able to want to sort of nurture someone and help them.

Lucy Kidd:

And help them.

Kat Parsons:

Do you have to be quite conscious then?

Kat Parsons:

Absolutely.

Lucy Kidd:

Exactly the same.

Lucy Kidd:

So it's like seeing the way for my son at the moment trying to choose university options and being quite introverted, not always great at representing himself and kind of asking for the help he needs.

Lucy Kidd:

So that whole balance between stepping in and doing it for him versus helping him find the confidence and the skills.

Lucy Kidd:

Often it is the skills when you've not been in those situations before to help him gain his independence, gain his confidence.

Lucy Kidd:

It's constantly that balance and that choice between stepping in and stepping out the way.

Lucy Kidd:

And we're often helping leaders make that choice between when do you step in, when do you step back?

Lucy Kidd:

especially when they're experts in their field,

Lucy Kidd:

giving the answers versus really helping people find their own way through,

Lucy Kidd:

finding their own answers.

Lucy Kidd:

Anni, are you a fixer or a rescuer?

Anni Townend:

I'm not.

Anni Townend:

I'm not.

Anni Townend:

My challenge is one, accepting offers of help from others,

Anni Townend:

not an easy one for me.

Anni Townend:

And the other would be asking for help when I need it.

Anni Townend:

So there's a real conversation for me around help.

Anni Townend:

I'm not a rescuer.

Anni Townend:

and a helper but that comes from my own challenge to when people offer help like you do Lucy

Anni Townend:

I'm learning to say yes please only the other day you offered a phone call to me at any time of day

Anni Townend:

or night ordinary I would have said I'll let you know how I am in the morning in fact I said yes I

Anni Townend:

will and that took a lot of courage to say yes I will and in doing that making a commitment to

Anni Townend:

myself that if I did need help then I could call you any time of the night which was amazing

Anni Townend:

and asking for help when I need it so not only accepting offers of help but

Kat Parsons:

accepting I think I say maybe a lot someone says oh would you like a hand I go oh yeah maybe

Kat Parsons:

meaning yes please otherwise the answer would be no I recently had surgery on my wrist

Kat Parsons:

I'd got some ligament damage from I'd had it for a very very very many years and I just never got

Kat Parsons:

around to fixing it and I thought right I'm gonna I'll get it done but it meant I couldn't drive for

Kat Parsons:

six weeks I literally was in a cast in a you know in a splint and all sorts of stuff and it was

Kat Parsons:

awful because I couldn't do anything and I was having to get my kids to help with all sorts

Kat Parsons:

my literally getting dressed you know all of these things and it was so difficult to say

Kat Parsons:

like can someone help me and that was a massive learning curve for me being the one that again

Kat Parsons:

that sort of fixer I'm the one who gets stuff done leave it to me everyone you know I'm the one that

Kat Parsons:

that's going to drive this forward to suddenly being the one in the back seat literally because

Kat Parsons:

I couldn't drive I couldn't drive but yeah having to rely on everyone else to do things for me was

Lucy Kidd:

really really tough really tough did it change how you sort of went back into

Lucy Kidd:

your role at work back into kind of the family and relationship was is there more space for help

Kat Parsons:

yeah I think so I think I sort of let go of things a little bit and I realized that others

Kat Parsons:

were quite capable of stepping up in certain things that maybe I couldn't and again I think

Kat Parsons:

that's that thing about allowing people space so don't just jump in and fix and the problem is I am

Kat Parsons:

100 miles an hour so it sometimes yeah it's um it was quite tough for me to sit back so I am

Kat Parsons:

consciously trying to do that more to sort of give others space to pick things up we've all got you

Lucy Kidd:

know i'm often and always struck by just how much people have to offer when they've got the the

Lucy Kidd:

confidence or the invitation or the space the opportunity the challenge and really that's you

Lucy Kidd:

know what we talk about collaborative edge finding collaborative edge so when everyone has the safe

Lucy Kidd:

and the space to bring their full offering their full potential in whatever way that is whatever

Lucy Kidd:

shape that turns up in what's possible is so powerful so we're always thinking about and

Lucy Kidd:

looking for how do we do that work and so we've got our way of doing it inviting the mindset and

Lucy Kidd:

behaviors of curiosity care and courage and really exploring what that means in practice

Lucy Kidd:

in conversations in meetings in in conferences and events in every opportunity day to day

Lucy Kidd:

what are you finding because i'm hearing like you're you're really wanting people to bring

Lucy Kidd:

their whole selves to work you're thinking about the different challenges people are facing in their

Lucy Kidd:

jobs as an organization what helps everyone to come together and do that and when do you see that

Lucy Kidd:

magic and that power of that collaborative edge yeah so there's I was I get invited to a lot of

Kat Parsons:

brunch lunch networking conferences drinks there's a there's a lot that sort of comes through uh my

Kat Parsons:

inbox in terms of yeah that sort of collaboration and then when I've been to some of them it's the

Kat Parsons:

same conversation or the same outcome the same voice is the same like there's there's not like

Kat Parsons:

that kind of new thing and equally there's not an action that comes out the room so it's like

Kat Parsons:

yeah the same conversation and then we all leave and then i'll see it again in another six months

Kat Parsons:

for another brunch or something like there's there's no there's nothing that moves it forward

Kat Parsons:

and being very action focused i think that's the thing that really frustrates me

Kat Parsons:

so i sort of took it upon myself actually quite recently there's a company called diversity

Kat Parsons:

umbrella who they run the british diversity awards the european diversity awards they've

Kat Parsons:

just done the employee network awards and they do the rainbow honors there's four sort of massive

Kat Parsons:

diversity awards throughout the year and i'm a judge for them and i've been a judge for a couple

Kat Parsons:

of years now so my job is to go through i get it all sort of shortlisted it says 10 submissions per

Kat Parsons:

category and i go through every single word because i i want to make sure that you know one

Kat Parsons:

the right person is winning you know to really sort of understand what they've been doing but

Kat Parsons:

Equally, I'm like, God, that's a great idea.

Kat Parsons:

Like, oh, I'll have that.

Kat Parsons:

I'm constantly almost sort of stealing their ideas of like that could work.

Kat Parsons:

That's a really good idea.

Kat Parsons:

So I pushed back on Linda Riley.

Kat Parsons:

She's the CEO of Diversity Umbrella.

Kat Parsons:

And I said, you know, in terms of nice for the challenge, I said, you've got a gold mine of a bank of like the best of the best organisations, individuals, role models that have given you information about how they're really cranking the dial for diversity inclusion.

Kat Parsons:

and you know the awards are great and the recognition is is fantastic and that really

Kat Parsons:

drives best practice forward but what about those other nine people in the category that didn't win

Kat Parsons:

or get highly commended what happens to to that and she was like well that's a fair challenge okay

Kat Parsons:

fine you know so so i said well okay let's do something different we all get invited all these

Kat Parsons:

bits and pieces and stuff let's do it and let's get like the right people in the room at the right

Kat Parsons:

time so it was last week there was 15 of us uh met up in london for a bit of lunch and a little bit

Kat Parsons:

champagne which always helped the conversation flow but it was I've not been to an event like it

Kat Parsons:

it was 15 people around one table having one conversation it wasn't like everyone splintered

Kat Parsons:

off but it was like we were just sort of feeding off of each other so you know someone would spin

Kat Parsons:

the conversation in a different direction say well why are we not doing this why someone else said oh

Kat Parsons:

I could offer support on that or I know someone and then by the end of it there's like I don't

Kat Parsons:

want to call them working groups it sounds a bit sort of stuffy but there's there's now like

Kat Parsons:

spin-offs of like right let's let's let's have a look at a podcast you know how do we amplify

Kat Parsons:

these voices let's have a look at summits let's have a look at I've done conferences in in Centrica

Kat Parsons:

where I went to Diversity Umbrella and said these are my three pinch points I can't get these things

Kat Parsons:

moving like who have you got from anywhere any sector that is really doing some good work on this

Kat Parsons:

and then they came in and I was like this is brilliant it's almost bespoke for exactly what

Kat Parsons:

I needed and it's then allowing me to sort of push things forward in my own organization so

Kat Parsons:

That collaboration, the vibe in the room and the energy and the connection so quickly because I see these people around out and about and I give them a wave and I don't really have time to, you know, let's have coffee.

Kat Parsons:

Let's have coffee to be able to sort of condense that into one.

Kat Parsons:

Yeah, exactly.

Kat Parsons:

It was one big coffee.

Kat Parsons:

Yeah, it was it was phenomenal to be able to do that and have that connection with 15 people in such a short space.

Anni Townend:

And all involved in the same conversation.

Anni Townend:

So everybody having a voice.

Anni Townend:

And I imagine that everybody was really listening to each other.

Anni Townend:

sparking off each other feeling that sense of we can do this together through collaborating that

Anni Townend:

collaborative edge but also something you touched on earlier around being competitive we're really

Anni Townend:

curious about that kind of edge between collaboration and competition and how through together finding

Anni Townend:

your collaborative edge as a group, everybody having a voice, you then have a competitive

Anni Townend:

advantage, you know, because you want to succeed together. And that energy fuels great, you

Anni Townend:

know, great success, collective success.

Kat Parsons:

Yeah, I think it's been weird, actually changing careers. So again, being in construction and,

Kat Parsons:

you know, you'd never speak to anyone else in the other organisations, because it was

Kat Parsons:

like trade secrets, like who are you working with? What clients have you got? You know,

Kat Parsons:

those sorts of things. So it was very separate. And you'd be sort of like, you know, boo,

Kat Parsons:

hiss you know if anyone from another organization came anywhere near you being in diversity inclusion

Kat Parsons:

is so collaborative because i could tell you my trade secrets that i do at centrica but you're not

Kat Parsons:

going to be able to recreate that in your organization unless you have the culture the

Kat Parsons:

leadership all these sorts of bits that you need to actually deliver the whole recipe i suppose

Kat Parsons:

so i can tell you everything i'm doing like i'm absolutely an open book i'll have that virtual

Kat Parsons:

coffee I'll tell you how I'm doing it but then it's on you and the rest of the team the people

Kat Parsons:

team you know the culture you know whatever it is the leaders to be able to then deliver that

Lucy Kidd:

and the culture and the leadership are so important impactful is there anything you found that's had

Lucy Kidd:

the biggest difference at that level so although we work kind of across the whole organization

Lucy Kidd:

we know that unless those most senior leaders don't fully believe in it aren't living and breathing

Lucy Kidd:

in whatever change it is we're helping them drive across the organization culturally

Lucy Kidd:

it's not going to fly it's not going to stick there'll be moments and there'll be

Lucy Kidd:

conversations there'll be points but it's not going to be sustainable what are you noticing

Lucy Kidd:

what have you learned what are some of those top tips to share across diversity inclusion but

Lucy Kidd:

anyone who wants to drive change across an organization i think one of the best things i

Kat Parsons:

did it was slightly controversial at the time and i get mixed feedback from it but i i think it worked

Kat Parsons:

brilliantly was um we had uh this is my last organization we had um employee networks there

Kat Parsons:

was six or seven of them and they all needed sponsors so i went into the the most senior

Kat Parsons:

people in the organization and i said right we'll have a one-to-one you know let's just have an open

Kat Parsons:

chat about how you feel about like what is diversity like what is what does it mean to you

Kat Parsons:

and i said can you tell me like out of the networks like what are the two that you think

Kat Parsons:

like I really sort of warmed to those.

Kat Parsons:

And what are the two you think I would not even know where to start?

Kat Parsons:

Like not a clue.

Kat Parsons:

And then I paired them with the one.

Kat Parsons:

That's a great question.

Kat Parsons:

I paired them with the one that they were like not a clue.

Kat Parsons:

So my best example was a guy called Keith.

Kat Parsons:

He was the MD for one area of the organisation.

Kat Parsons:

And he said do not pair me with the Women's Network.

Kat Parsons:

I have like what?

Kat Parsons:

He said I hire the best person for the job.

Kat Parsons:

And then you look around his team and they all look like Keith.

Kat Parsons:

There was just cookie cutters of Keith everywhere.

Kat Parsons:

so I was like well okay so I thought I'd just have a couple of like one-to-ones with him

Kat Parsons:

little coffee when when I was in the office so I was saying Keith like you know what what is it

Kat Parsons:

so we did have a bit of a dig down it didn't take much at all and all of a sudden there was like

Kat Parsons:

this penny drop moment and then I met up with him again and he said I've got some news for you I

Kat Parsons:

said oh okay Keith what's going on here he said I've signed the women in rail charter the women

Kat Parsons:

in something else charter the women in all these he was like I'm in like I completely understand

Kat Parsons:

so we've gone from like i hire the best person i've got a daughter so this this is important

Kat Parsons:

to all of a sudden he was like right no actually okay but so if i'd paired him with whatever he

Kat Parsons:

wanted to be paired with he wouldn't have had that moment of like ah okay so then i used keith

Kat Parsons:

constantly everyone was i was saying keith keith keith keith and then everyone was like how do we

Kat Parsons:

be more keith so then it was a sort of competition at that level as well they were trying to keep up

Kat Parsons:

with Keith. I use Keith all the time as an example. And yeah, it worked brilliantly. But

Kat Parsons:

that was based on, again, connection, him being able to trust me and be open and me just giving

Kat Parsons:

him a good old shove out of his comfort zone to go and, you know, connect something that he was

Anni Townend:

maybe shying away from. It's a great encouragement to everybody who's listening and watching us in

Anni Townend:

conversation is to go and seek out that difference, isn't it? Something that back to resistance,

Anni Townend:

And something you might resist might actually be the very thing that unlocks something in you that changes so much more than you, but other people as well.

Kat Parsons:

Just go and jump in. I think that's what it is. People are scared to jump in. So a light shove.

Anni Townend:

And a mischievous one, too. I think you bring that. I know, you know, you spoke about humour earlier on, but there's definitely a mischievousness in you that is very winning.

Anni Townend:

I can imagine.

Anni Townend:

Warming.

Anni Townend:

Yeah, winning and warming, you know, that people will trust you

Anni Townend:

because you wouldn't have invited and encouraged them to do something

Anni Townend:

without believing that it actually...

Anni Townend:

And I never would have let him drown.

Kat Parsons:

He absolutely had me. I was there.

Kat Parsons:

That's the difference, isn't it?

Kat Parsons:

It wasn't an option to show him up to say, well, you know,

Kat Parsons:

the white middle-aged leader in charge of the women's network.

Kat Parsons:

Floundering.

Kat Parsons:

Yeah, exactly.

Kat Parsons:

This was about success and he was absolutely glowing.

Lucy Kidd:

Yeah, he was brilliant.

Lucy Kidd:

And I think that's what makes the difference time and time again

Lucy Kidd:

is when you're committed not just to your own success

Lucy Kidd:

but to other people's success, to really,

Lucy Kidd:

and believing in them and their potential

Lucy Kidd:

even before they can see it themselves.

Lucy Kidd:

So Keith, great example.

Lucy Kidd:

He knew he probably had something more there to share and to offer

Lucy Kidd:

and to not just think and believe it's a good idea

Lucy Kidd:

but to actually take action and to make things different

Lucy Kidd:

and to recognise that he can be part of that.

Kat Parsons:

I think that's a mental thing for me as well

Kat Parsons:

because, again, success previously in my previous careers

Kat Parsons:

was about one person.

Kat Parsons:

It was about me meeting targets and KPIs and budgets

Kat Parsons:

and all these sorts of bits and pieces.

Kat Parsons:

It was very much an I thing, you know, how I fitted into the team

Kat Parsons:

and I felt like I had to be sort of, you know, bigger

Kat Parsons:

and really stamp an impact.

Kat Parsons:

And I think now, you know, this change of career

Kat Parsons:

and the environments I work in,

Kat Parsons:

The success is watching those people suddenly find a voice and they step up and they're then sort of leading.

Kat Parsons:

Honestly, just every day it just fuels me.

Kat Parsons:

So it's nice. It's nice to see others shooting up the ladder as well.

Lucy Kidd:

Wonderful.

Lucy Kidd:

There's a lovely unspoken encouragement there thinking about, you know, we've had encouragement to really share practical things that people can take away from these conversations to go away and do.

Lucy Kidd:

So there's an unspoken encouragement there to let go of some of the things that you feel have to be done by yourself and to invite others to do it with some safety and with some support and some guide rails.

Lucy Kidd:

But to really help them find their own courage to go and do that.

Anni Townend:

What other encouragements as we draw to a close do you have for listeners and viewers?

Anni Townend:

Other encouragements?

Kat Parsons:

I think, again, that curiosity, I think is absolutely key.

Kat Parsons:

and if there's things that you are that sort of niggle where you think oh I'm sort of shying away

Kat Parsons:

from this conversation because I'm not really sure I understand like that's the one go and find

Kat Parsons:

yourself a podcast listen to go and find someone in an employee network who can tell you about it

Kat Parsons:

who can really make you sort of understand because I think that lived experience and

Kat Parsons:

hearing someone's story is the bit that just gives you that clarity I think on other people's

Kat Parsons:

perspectives and I think you know from my point of view my brain works in one way as I've said I'm

Kat Parsons:

an hour let's go let's go let's go and again my son grounds me constantly because he the way his

Kat Parsons:

brain works is so different to mine that I really have to sort of catch myself to think it's not just

Kat Parsons:

my way or no way it's around that flexing I think you really do have to flex when you're working

Kat Parsons:

with people that you know not everyone's going to want to be an absolute ball of energy like me

Kat Parsons:

if someone's being quiet in the room for example is it that they need a bit longer so Rowan has an

Kat Parsons:

eight second processing time I have a three second tolerance on a response which causes quite a lot

Kat Parsons:

of friction sometimes and I have to catch myself so how do you again encourage those people into

Kat Parsons:

the conversation by giving them the right setting is it afterwards is it a catch-up is it do they

Kat Parsons:

just need a little bit of a tease to come into the conversation so yeah I'd say yeah go and go and find

Kat Parsons:

find the areas that you feel less comfortable with and go and you know give yourself a good

Lucy Kidd:

immersive experience in that area. And it's such, there's another encouragement there around know

Lucy Kidd:

that about yourself and know that about others, that process and example, kind of once we know

Lucy Kidd:

those seemingly small things about ourselves and about each other and we share them, then we find

Lucy Kidd:

that wonderful collaborative edge meeting space where we can both bring the best of ourselves.

Anni Townend:

Yeah. Thank you so much, Kat. That's been really wonderful being in conversation with you. And

Anni Townend:

at Anthropy 26.

Anni Townend:

We're recording ahead of that

Anni Townend:

when we last saw you there

Anni Townend:

and had a wonderful connection then.

Anni Townend:

Thank you for today.

Anni Townend:

Yeah, thank you for having me.

Anni Townend:

It's been great.

Anni Townend:

We'll be sharing Kat's LinkedIn details

Anni Townend:

in the show notes for this episode

Anni Townend:

so you can follow, connect

Anni Townend:

and collaborate with her.

Anni Townend:

Thank you to you, the audience,

Anni Townend:

for being alongside us.

Anni Townend:

There's also a link to our website,

Anni Townend:

collaborationequation.com

Anni Townend:

to discover more about us

Anni Townend:

and how we can help you to find your collaborative edge.

Anni Townend:

Please do share and subscribe to this podcast,

Anni Townend:

Finding Your Collaborative Edge.

Anni Townend:

A huge thank you to Brown Bear Studios

Anni Townend:

for the recording and production of our show

Anni Townend:

and to Shmogus Media for the marketing of it.

Anni Townend:

And a thank you to you, Lucy,

Anni Townend:

for your partnership and collaboration.