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#28 Domain Driven Design for Data, a Primer - AKA Just Get People to Talk to Each Other - Interview w/ Danilo Sato and Andrew Harmel-Law
Episode 2814th February 2022 • Data Mesh Radio • Data as a Product Podcast Network
00:00:00 01:06:09

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Danilo's Webinar with Zhamak called "Data mesh and domain ownership": https://www.thoughtworks.com/en-us/about-us/events/webinars/core-principles-of-data-mesh/data-mesh-and-domain-ownership

Vladik Khononov, 7 Years of DDD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_HjtYAH0AI

Danilo LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danilosato/

Danilo Twitter: @dtsato / https://twitter.com/dtsato

Andrew LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewharmellaw/

Andrew Twitter: @al94781 / https://twitter.com/al94781

In this episode, Scott interviews two Domain Driven Design (DDD) experts from Thoughtworks - Danilo Sato Director and the Head of Data & AI (part of Office of the CTO) and Andrew Harmel-Law, Technical Principal. This was a further delve into Domain Driven Design for Data after the conversations with Paolo Platter and Piethein Strengholt.

Danilo and Andrew gave a lot of great information about Event Storming, domain definitions and boundaries, ubiquitous language, and so much more but the main theme was "just get people to talk to each other".

DDD is about bridging the gap between how the tech people talk and how the business/business people talk; if you are doing it right, both sides can understand each other and then the engineers can implement those business process learnings as part of the code.

For an initial PoC, Danilo recommends starting with 2-3 data products. It is better if you can do the PoC across multiple domains but it isn't necessary. Validate value and do it quickly. As Andrew mentions, the earlier you can show value, the less pressure there is overall. Look for the initial quick wins while also building for the long-term.

One key thing to remember, per Danilo, when doing DDD for data and data mesh in general: it is always an iterative process. Andrew briefly discussed a way to do DDD in more of a guerilla style than the blue/red books (well known DDD guides). Don't get ahead of yourself as Max Schultze mentioned in his episode. Do not let the size of the eventual task throw you into analysis paralysis.

Andrew talked a lot about how normalization and strong abstractions on the application side make it very difficult to re-add the context lost when you normalize. Both Andrew and Danilo talked about the need to embrace complexity. If you want context, you have to accept there will be complexity. In the pursuit of simplification, you lose the richness, and that is VERY hard to reconstruct afterwards.

Some practical advice for boundary definition is that the boundaries need to be very clear but malleable. Build everything with an eye that it will evolve. Before you start splitting into many 2 pizza teams, look at the big picture and select some coarse-grained boundaries. It is MUCH easier to split later than it is to glue things back together.



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All music used this episode was found on PixaBay and was created by (including slight edits by Scott Hirleman): Lesfm, MondayHopes, SergeQuadrado, ItsWatR, Lexin_Music, and/or nevesf

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