I sit down with Ntsiki Biyela, South Africa’s first Black female winemaker. A woman whose journey into wine started in the most unexpected way… by saying “yes” to an opportunity that had the power to change her life, and absolutely hating it after tasting it for the first time.

We talk about what it feels like to enter an industry where you don’t see yourself represented, and the quiet (and sometimes not-so-quiet) challenges of being both Black and female in a traditionally white, male-dominated wine world. What stands out is Ntsiki’s perspective - grounded, honest, and often filled with humour. Whether it’s people assuming she couldn’t possibly be the winemaker, or customers confidently explaining her own wines to her, she meets it all with a mix of grace and sharp insight.

But this episode isn’t just about breaking barriers - it’s also about redefining wine itself.

Ntsiki shares how she is making wine more relatable, especially for people who didn’t grow up with it. Instead of talking about “truffles” and “plum” she brings it back to something much more human: How does the wine make you feel?

And through her involvement with the Pinotage Youth Development Academy, she’s helping young South Africans find their place in the wine and hospitality industry, and opening doors that once felt closed.

We also talk about her own label, Aslina Wines - named after her grandmother - and the moment when she proudly shared her award-winning wine with her.

Deutsch: Du kannst diesen Podcast auch auf Deutsch hören: “Africa with André auf Deutsch”

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Aslina Wines: www.aslinawines.com

Pinotage Youth Development Academy: https://pyda.co.za/

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Welcome to a new episode of Africa with André, where we celebrate Africa - One Story at a Time.

[00:00:18] André: I consider myself very lucky to have grown up in the country with the very best wine in the world, South Africa. I'll just give our French and Italian listeners a moment to calm down, then continue with my interview.

The South African wine industry has for many, many years been what I call a very white industry, and by that I don't mean the wine itself because we have excellent red wine too.

But rather that the majority of the wine makers and the wine estate owners are white people. So, I wanted to hear from a black winemaker what it is like to enter and work in this industry. And I'm very excited to introduce you today to one of the few black winemakers, and the first black woman winemaker in South Africa, Ntsiki Biyela.

Hi Ntsiki, and welcome to my podcast.

[00:01:03] André: Let's start with something fun. Do you remember the first glass of wine that you ever tasted? And be honest, did you like it?

My mind went straight to the flavors of the fruits and that it's gonna be nice and sweet. And then, 'cause it was a red wine, I tasted this thing and it was just horrible. And then he asked, "so what do you think"? And my answer was "nice" 'cause I didn't wanna make him feel bad about the most horrible thing I was having in my mouth.

[00:01:48] Ntsiki: Yep.

[00:01:57] Ntsiki: For me, it wasn't really about studying wine, it was an opportunity to change my life. It was an opportunity to do something. I knew that I wanted to study. And I knew I wanted to go to university. My grandmother, my mom, they couldn't afford that for me. But when the scholarship came to say, "yeah, you gonna be studying wine making", I was like, "yeah, sure".

And then they were like, it's in Afrikaans, which is a language I had no clue of. Then I was like, okay, "sure, I'll learn".

[00:02:30] Ntsiki: Yeah.

[00:02:40] Ntsiki: So yes, I was starting something I had no clue of, that I didn't know. And, and I'm grateful that actually I pulled through. And here I am, and we're at Aslina Wines tasting, having different wines. And now I've got wine that I say I like, and wines that I don't like.

And yeah, it's been, it's been a fun journey. A difficult journey at the same time.

[00:03:03] Ntsiki: Yeah, so I grew up in the village KwaNondlovu, and then we moved to another village, and I went to school there.

[00:03:12] Ntsiki: Inland, Northeast.

[00:03:14] Ntsiki: Yes. And so I grew up there, and when I was growing up with my grandmother and my grandfather. So, we didn't have boys at home, so I was the one looking after cows, milking them, mostly with the boys.

So hence, I think even being in the industry, I would say it's male dominated. I'm like, yeah. 'cause I don't think they could do something more different than I can do, if we studied the same thing.

I went to school there, finished my high school, and when the opportunity of getting a scholarship to study at Stellenbosch University came, and I didn't question it. I was like, "yes, I’ll do it". No clue what I was talking about, but it was like, "I'll do it". Yeah.

[00:03:55] Ntsiki: So, my grandmother wanted me to do land surveying, and so I thought, I'm gonna do civil engineering.

And there was a phase in high school, we were talking about chemical engineering. I said, yes, I'm gonna do chemical engineering, and I applied for scholarships, for chemical engineering. And I was getting those beautiful letters coming with "we regret". And then you like, you open the next one, it says, we regret and it just became one of those.

Yeah. So, this couldn't have come at a better opportunity.

[00:04:45] Ntsiki: looking at the university side, being lectured in a language you don't understand. It felt like, you know, the information being shoved down your throat, so you block. And I only learned really Afrikaans when I was working, working with my team in the cellar, speaking Afrikaans. 'Cause our Afrikaans was Afrikaans, English, Zulu all mixed in one line, and that was fine.

[00:05:13] Ntsiki: Yeah, the, the students will make noise.

Yeah. You know, so what we did basically was we, we got tutor classes. So attend the Afrikaans class and you get out of the class and go to the tutor class. Yeah. And basically, go and learn there.

[00:05:36] Ntsiki: So, so when I finished my studies, and I was working as a wine maker, it was very interesting that it wasn't the people who are working in the industry, other than the consumers coming through

[00:05:47] Ntsiki: who were in shock.

Um, it's a small winery, so I'll be sometimes at the tasting room. And then they would try and tell me how the wine should be tasting like, and I'm like, Hmm. And then they're like, oh, maybe just if you might know, um, just in case, you know.

Then they'll ask a question and then I'll tell them from the beginning of it all and then elaborate, and then, well, how do you know that? I'm like, because I make wine.

And, and see the shock and like, and then I remember this one person, she was like, "oh, I just made an ass of myself". And I was like, "well, you're not the only one". You know.

I remember one of off the farm, a farmer came in 'cause we were buying grapes. He wanted to sell his grapes, and then he was looking for a wine maker.

And my team was like, "oh yeah, there is a winemaker".

And he's like, "no, no I'm looking for the winemaker, not a cellar supervisor", because I'm grateful of the way I was looking at things even then. It was one of those, like he's not expecting the picture, as you said, it's male dominated, it's white. The picture for a wine maker, everyone's got it engraved in their mind; that this is how a winemaker looks like, and this is how a supervisor looks like.

So, he was like, "no, no, I'm looking for winemaker, not a supervisor". And then he just met my boss He was like, nope, there she is behind you". They had to smile.

I suppose you could either get angry and defensive, or you can have this little journey. And if you actually have a lot of joy out of that journey and seeing their faces. That was the thing, but also the understanding to say, you know what? You came to a space and people are not expecting you, so they're in shock of seeing you, they're not expecting you. You are an unexpected person to be doing this, what you do.

And so to have that, I'm gonna go have that grace and understanding in that part, to say, look, they're in shock as much as you are also saying, I'm in shock to be in this environment, you know? So.

[00:07:36] Ntsiki: It's normal now that you're gonna meet a black winemaker. Yeah. And, but it doesn't make it easier. But there's growth.

[00:07:49] Ntsiki: You still get those experiences, you still get those experiences, and it's one of those that you look at it to like, you can put a law, but you cannot change a person. Because humans are humans. There are these personal things.

I tell you there was this one time and we had a, an intern here, she had to go around giving people brochures of our wine. She came back fuming. Fuming, angry, and we're like, "what's wrong"? " No, I gave this guy a brochure and he said, I don't buy black wines"

So, if I'm saying it still exists, and what I said to her, " look, understand you're not everybody's cup of tea". And I, and I understand what she was feeling, she's young. It's her first experience, or maybe not first, but I said, "in those situations, you just smile at the person because, honestly..." there's nothing you can do for them.

[00:08:42] Ntsiki: You can't change them from speaking ill of whatever they want to say. You know, you can only control your own emotions towards that, to say, "you know, it's okay".

[00:08:52] Ntsiki: Sadly, they're missing out.

So it is not always easy, but did you have a moment when you said, when you felt, "yes, I'm in the right place. The wine industry is, is where I belong"?

[00:09:31] André:

Do you agree that South African wine is the best wine?

So it, it has been that, but we've gone out of it.

[00:10:08] Ntsiki: Yes.

[00:10:19] Ntsiki: So, Aslina Wines launched it in 2016, and the name, it's my grandmother's name, I was raised by my grandmother. So, to pay tribute and honour, um, the woman who raised me and basically taught me everything about life. Basically, it just fitted, to name the company after her.

We currently, we don't have our own cellar, we don't have our own vineyards. We sourcing grapes. And on the wines we have, we've got our Sauvignon Blanc. We've got Chardonnay, we've got Chenin, we've got a Cabernet Sauvignon, we've got a Bordeaux blend.

We just launched our value range called Ndubs.

[00:10:57] Ntsiki: Uh, which is a Xhosa word for "Ndubela", and that's like a pick me up. When you're tired, and drink that's what you can get your energy, to be able to do whatever you need to do.

[00:11:17] Ntsiki: So that I can prep food and eat. Because my grandfather would be like, I was like, "I'm so hungry". "Just go make Ndubs". And so it was.

[00:11:28] Ntsiki: They're dry.

[00:11:39] Ntsiki: ...so I get home, you wanna cook, you're like, oh, I need a glass of wine. Let me have this while I'm prepping so that I can open my wine that I'm gonna have with my food.

And which is your favourite? I know it's like asking a mother, which is her favourite child, but do you have a favourite of your...?

There are two wines I always call I "go to war with". It's our skin contact Chenin blanc, and Umsasane.

[00:12:03] Ntsiki: Yes. So Umsasane is a Zulu word for the Acacia Tree, which is an iconic tree Africa, but that's my grandmother's nickname and that is our Bordeaux blend. And then we've got our Chenin Blanc, fermented on the skin. And so those are the two wines.

[00:12:23] Ntsiki: So currently we're renting at Delheim wines, working at Delheim, where we're making our wines, storing it there, and distribute all over the world. And we use most of their grapes and then we source from other places to top up.

[00:12:40] Ntsiki: Yes.

[00:12:41] Ntsiki: No, she's late.

[00:12:48] Ntsiki: I had told her that when I start a business in the future, it'll be named after you. Uh, she saw me starting to work as a winemaker, but she didn't see me starting the business.

[00:12:59] Ntsiki: Yeah, I know, I know. I always say living my values, I'm mostly based on what she taught me. So, she lives through things we do, the way we do things.

What do you love about being a winemaker?

[00:13:45] André: Okay. So, you enjoy the whole, the whole journey from grape to glass

[00:13:59] André: Is there something that people always get wrong about wine making, where you say, "i, I wish people would understand this part of the process", 'cause people always get it wrong.

'Cause they only think that it's all about swirling the glass as a wine-maker in the cellar and, you know, it goes beyond that. There's logistics in this whole thing. It's like you're playing chess. There is a lot of administration behind.

And my friends who were with me say, "you can't say that the winemaker is standing right here". And she reacted just exactly like you. You just shrugged your shoulders and said, "yeah, whatever". And she said to me, "you can have whatever opinion you want to, it's your palate". And that doesn't mean the next person doesn't like it, but you, your palate doesn't like this wine. And that's fine.

People used to speak about truffles in my wines. they would be like, oh, I can pick up the truffles. I thought they're talking about, you know those Lindt balls? And then I'm like, mm-hmm. And I'm like, no idea what they're saying.

Until one time one of the chefs, we're doing a podcast, and he talks about and then I drizzled truffle oil". I'm thinking he melted the chocolate. And then he drizzled it on top. And then I spoke to him. I'm like, so can you explain to me about this truffle? Then he's like, okay, come with me.

We went to the kitchen, he showed me the truffle, and I was like, oh, it's a mushroom. And then he explained about it, and then I smelled the raw truffle and I smelled the cooked truffle. I smell the oil, and only to find that it smells like a Calabash when it's been fermenting milk. That is what I know.

But now when people are talk about truffles, and they always try to look for this chocolate in the wine, so now when you are smelling what you are smelling and you're picking up that, you're picking up something that your brain relates to.

[00:16:24] Ntsiki: So, okay, so I was thinking when you're smelling wine, it's just you.

[00:16:37] Ntsiki: Yes. So we use that for drinking our traditional beer, yeah. And then there's a different one that we use, which is made also of vegetable, that we use for fermenting milk. So, which we call it amasi. So, the logo of Aslina Wines is the Calabash, that is a clay pot that we use for, um, the traditional beer.

[00:17:07] Ntsiki: Yes.

What else do you do to make wine more relatable to more people in South Africa, and I know one of the things is using words that mean something to that community, like the calabash instead of truffle.

How does the wine make you feel? Does it say, have a glass? Does it make you feel comfortable? Does it make you see yourself relax because at the end of the day, why do you want to drink the wine?

I've been wine tasting with many people, and the taste, when they say, "do you smell the, the". And then half the people are just nodding saying yes, but they don't, really, because they don't actually know.

Yeah, yeah. And so, giving us the freedom to say what we smell, and what we feel I think is yes, is very good.

So, I remember when I was in, I was in London, we did a tasting and someone tasted the Chenin, and she was having her hands up, like, you know, like a prayer of sorts. And I was like, "guys, she's having a moment".

And then she was like, "I'm having a conversation".

Those are moments that make you pause, to say, actually, where does it take you?

[00:18:58] Ntsiki: Yeah. Yeah.

In the South African wine industry, and correct me if I'm wrong, along the way, but in the past, lots of the labourers working on the farms, were paid in wine.

People were paid, a part of their salary was, wine. Yeah, leftover wine, that was not a brilliant quality, but left over wine from, from the wine making process, but, but that doesn't happen anymore.

[00:19:29] André: So, in that case, the wine was accessible, but you're wanting to make it relatable, so that people could enjoy, enjoy the wine.

[00:19:39] André: Tell us about one or two of your favourite stories or experiences from your wine making, be it with a wine maker, be it with a staff member, be it with a guest. Tell us one or two stories that will make us smile.

Pour us in two cups. And she tasted the wine and she was like, "it's nice" and the facial expression, you know, when you've had something very sour that is, the facial expression was like,

[00:20:18] Ntsiki: Yes, it was that. And she was like, "it's nice". And I was like okay, but I could see she was happy, she was proud.

[00:20:31] Ntsiki: So that means you're giving back and

Is that giving back though is not giving I the future. So Pinotage Youth Development Academy, we're training young people through the value chain of the wine industry, and then we do job placements. Um, so I'm one of the directors on the board. And so we are basically taking young people who are living around the industry. Who actually look at the industry and think, I don't belong here actually.

But you like, "no, you do. You can get in. You can make a career out of this, you can", and then they get trained. But we focus mostly on personal development.

What that look like is, you're going to have mentors, you're going to have coaches gonna talk to the people because most of our issues as humans is really internal. We can do stuff. But we've got these doubts because of our life experiences.

So, we try and deal with that, while we're giving technical skills.

[00:21:28] Ntsiki: 18- to 25-year-olds.

[00:21:41] Ntsiki: Yes, so they attend an academy it's a full-time academy. You get in there, you attend classes, you write your tests, you do placements where you're gonna go do your practicals, then come back. It's a year. So, you do your practicals, you come back and people from the industry get invited to come and basically talk about what the industry does, talk about the issues for life, talk about just everything and anything, to get them job ready, get them prepared for the world.

[00:22:10] Ntsiki: Yeah.

[00:22:13] Ntsiki: Since 2012.

[00:22:21] Ntsiki: yes, our marketing and service person is one of them. Others are overseas. And others are all over the industry. Others are in the hospitality.

So, they all over like. For me, what I like the most is that when they start, they remind me of myself, your head down, you're scared of the world, and then you walk out.

Your head is held up high because you'll see the possibilities.

I like to end my episodes with questions about favourites.

Who is your favourite South African person? Dead or alive?

[00:22:58] André: And What is your favourite wine varietal and why?

I'm gonna say Cabernet, because it just doesn't give stress. I feel it's just low maintenance.

[00:23:15] Ntsiki: Both.

We've all met people who say A, B, C, "Anything But Chardonnay", they just won't touch Chardonnay. And your Chardonnay is so, I'm gonna say smooth again, because it, it is smooth and I've used that description for a lot of your wines, but it's just so easy drinking, but it still has depth and body and you can, there's a touch of traditional Chardonnay there. If it's too wooded, then people get put off. But it's, no one can say A, B, C anymore if they're in the presence of Aslina Wines, ‘cos its very good.

[00:23:50] André: And the last question, what words would you give to young women, who maybe want to come to the wine industry? Or I suppose it could be any industry, but to young women who want to do something like you've done?

[00:24:19] André: Yeah.

And two, I think it is important that once you get into the place, ask people for help. Don't ask people to do stuff for you. When a person says to me, "I've done one, two, and three, but I think I'm stuck here". Sounds better than somebody said to me, "so I wanna do one, two, and three. How do I start"? I just wanna walk in the opposite direction, because of that.

[00:25:09] Ntsiki:

[00:25:18] Ntsiki: Thank you so much, thank you for coming through, visiting our tasting room.

[00:25:27] Ntsiki: We're hopeful, we live in faith.

We heard today about the challenges of being black and female in an industry that's largely white and male dominated, and I heard a lot of stories about support and understanding and help, which is probably more than I expected before I came to this interview.

Ntsiki told us about her journey from not having had a single glass of wine, to making some pretty spectacular wine, and how she's giving back to grow the future generations of winemakers through the Pinotage Youth Development Academy.

I hope you've also found this episode inspiring, especially how Ntsiki's broken through traditional barriers to fulfil this dream. It wasn't originally their dream, but it became a dream.

Let me know what you loved about this episode on podcast at Africa with andre dot com or on Instagram.