D&D players have spent almost 50 years breaking the game. This week: the arrowhead of total destruction, nuclear warhead powered by extradimensional spaces; and the wireless troll, communication via regeneration.
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https://scintilla.studio/monster-arrow-of-destruction-wireless-troll/
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Join the conversation: www.twitter.com/SparkOtter
Meet my guests:
Jeremy Vine: www.twitter.com/talumin
Jarrod Jahoda, Mid-Level Adventurers: www.twitter.com/midlvladventure
Danilo Vujevic, Thinking Critically: https://www.thinkingcritically.co.uk/
Rebecca Gray and Steven Myers, Eberron: A Chronicle of Echoes: https://www.sivisechoerstation.com/
Music by Jason Shaw at Audionautix.com
You guys are doing specific monsters from older.
Steve Myers:That's not specific cheats.
Steve Myers:It is different cheeses,
Rebecca Gray:Cheeses!
Rebecca Gray:We're cheesing things I don't know if that's what you call it.
Lucas:uh it's going to be what I call it now, because it's way better.
Lucas:Because a lot of the ways in which the game has created its own
Lucas:lore, its own D&D cryptids started back in third edition and 3.5.
Lucas:and Fifth edition stands at the top of this teetering tower of nonsense that is
Lucas:50 years old and has given rise to a huge variety of things that are just in the
Lucas:game now and have names and wander about the world of D&D in the same way that
Lucas:wandering monsters roam around dungeons.
Lucas:So
Rebecca Gray:peasant rail gun,
Danilo Vujevic:something like the quantum ogre,
Jeremy Vine:I loathe the arrow of destruction,
Lucas:the False Hydra,
Jarrod Jahoda:a wireless troll,
Steve Myers:Larry the Kung Fu Kraken.
Steve Myers:I hate this one, so, so much.
Lucas:Welcome to Making a Monster, the bite-sized podcast where we look
Lucas:at the monsters in Dungeons and dragons and other tabletop RPGs and discover
Lucas:how they work, why they work and what they mean for these episodes.
Lucas:I've assembled a crack team of D and D podcasters from all over
Lucas:the world to track down monsters, born of the system itself.
Jeremy Vine:I'm Jeremy vine, I'm a professional dungeon master.
Jarrod Jahoda:My name is Jarrod Jahoda, and you can find me on any podcast
Jarrod Jahoda:platform under Mid-level Adventurers.
Danilo Vujevic:I'm Danilo, the host/producer/editor of Thinking
Danilo Vujevic:Critically, a D&D discussion podcast where we take a single word or
Danilo Vujevic:topic and discuss what it means in the D&D and wider TTRPG framework.
Rebecca Gray:Hello, I'm Rebecca
Steve Myers:and I'm Steven.
Rebecca Gray:And we are from A House Sivis Broadcasting Eberron
Rebecca Gray:A Chronicle of Echoes podcast.
Lucas:So let's talk cheese!
Lucas:we'll move on.
Lucas:Cause
Rebecca Gray:going.
Lucas:yeah, cause I want to talk about one thing that I know has changed from
Lucas:older editions to this edition are the exact mechanics of the way portable
Lucas:holes and bags of holding work, and it's still bad putting them together.
Lucas:And I think it used to be worse.
Jeremy Vine:So the idea is that there are dimensional spaces like a bag of holding.
Jeremy Vine:The bag, you can just put as much stuff- well, a lot of stuff into,
Jeremy Vine:and also things like a portable hole, which is a hole that you can put in
Jeremy Vine:the ground very much Bugs Bunny, where you can just kind of draw a hole in the
Jeremy Vine:ground and then jump in and then pull the hole above you so you're hidden.
Jeremy Vine:Another one is rope trick, which is actually a spell where you basically
Jeremy Vine:just drop a rope and you climb up the rope and you hide in a little
Jeremy Vine:cabin at the top and the only thing, and then you can pull the rope after
Jeremy Vine:you so no one knows you're in there.
Jeremy Vine:Uh, there's a really interesting, I think in Eberron, where they've got
Jeremy Vine:these, the electric trains, and all of the first class cabins are actually
Jeremy Vine:these extra dimensional spaces.
Jeremy Vine:So you can have these gorgeous rooms and libraries, while you're
Jeremy Vine:still traveling on the train.
Jeremy Vine:But there is a problem when these things start to interact because.
Jeremy Vine:I guess two negatives in a positive world kind of thing.
Jeremy Vine:really force these things together, there's going to be a bit of blowback.
Jeremy Vine:A lot of people wonder what happens if you put a portable hole into a bag
Jeremy Vine:of holding and previous editions, I believe it was something very nasty.
Lucas:So someone of a mechanical bent has devised a way in which we can use this
Lucas:particular interaction to create a weapon of mass destruction for very little cost.
Lucas:I don't know if I sent you the diagram that I found, but
Lucas:I feel like this isn't the
Lucas:only,
Jarrod Jahoda:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lucas:when was the first time you saw this?
Jarrod Jahoda:Probably about 10 years ago or so.
Jarrod Jahoda:You know, like a lot of these things, they originated in someone's home game
Jarrod Jahoda:and a thought experiment somewhere.
Jarrod Jahoda:And it wasn't until really like the late nineties, early two thousands when
Jarrod Jahoda:the internet became popular and there were message boards and websites and
Jarrod Jahoda:forums where people could start talking about and really refining these ideas.
Jarrod Jahoda:And so the D&D forums lit up with all of these things.
Jarrod Jahoda:And the Arrowhead of Mass Destruction is one of them.
Jarrod Jahoda:It's this idea where you roll up a portable hole and put it in
Jarrod Jahoda:a like special compactor thing, right in front of a bag of holding.
Jarrod Jahoda:And when the arrowhead impacts, the portable hole gets shoved into the
Jarrod Jahoda:bag of holding and detonates a massive explosion because in older editions,
Jarrod Jahoda:that's what happened when two intraplanar devices tried to swallow one another.
Jarrod Jahoda:It was just too much for the universe.
Jarrod Jahoda:And so a massive explosion, occurred, killing everything in anything, destroying
Jarrod Jahoda:castles and walls and all this nonsense.
Danilo Vujevic:The interaction between these two extraplanar items causes
Danilo Vujevic:a rupture in spacetime and tears the fabric of reality apart and things go
Danilo Vujevic:flying and this, that, and the other.
Danilo Vujevic:So you're turning an otherwise one d6 arrow into a 10 foot sphere of,
Danilo Vujevic:delete the terrain here, please.
Jarrod Jahoda:In fifth edition, it's narrowed down so that if two extra
Jarrod Jahoda:planar openings or bags or holes or whatever, go into one another, they
Jarrod Jahoda:just destroy themselves and spit out everything that was in them, which is
Jarrod Jahoda:a much more like non-lethal version.
Jeremy Vine:I loathe the arrow of destruction, which as a dungeon
Jeremy Vine:master, I just call garbage.
Jeremy Vine:I just don't allow anything like that.
Jeremy Vine:It's the equivalent of creating a mini black hole gun and going, yeah, I'm
Jeremy Vine:going to go down the shops and rob a bank with the mini black hole gun inside.
Jeremy Vine:It's probably not a good idea, uh, just to have in general.
Jeremy Vine:So I generally just say it doesn't doesn't work.
Jeremy Vine:But it was this weapon of mass destruction that players figured out,
Jeremy Vine:Hey, I can do that pretty easily.
Jeremy Vine:I can get these things together.
Jeremy Vine:It's an interesting idea.
Jeremy Vine:Um, it's certainly a, a nuclear option.
Jarrod Jahoda:The first time I ever saw this particular idea, I was all aboard.
Jarrod Jahoda:I was in it.
Jarrod Jahoda:I was like, if you can find those things and if you can craft that arrow without
Jarrod Jahoda:killing yourself, you can use that arrow because if you think about it,
Jarrod Jahoda:you're working with two highly volatile.
Jarrod Jahoda:Well, they're not volatile.
Jarrod Jahoda:They are perfectly safe to use by themselves, but the closer they get to one
Jarrod Jahoda:another and they gotta be pretty close.
Jarrod Jahoda:If you're going to put them into an Arrowhead, then if you can figure that
Jarrod Jahoda:out and in such a way where not only can you manufacture it, but carry it safely.
Jarrod Jahoda:Like, I'm like, if it was me and some of done that, but they have
Jarrod Jahoda:been like, we've made this thing.
Jarrod Jahoda:I'm like, okay, you have successfully made this thing.
Jarrod Jahoda:How are you transporting it?
Jarrod Jahoda:I'm just going to put it in my quiver.
Jarrod Jahoda:Are you now?
Lucas:you know,
Jarrod Jahoda:Okay, let me know how that works.
Jarrod Jahoda:The next time somebody kicks you in the backside or you
Jarrod Jahoda:get smacked by a falling rock.
Jarrod Jahoda:Cause, uh, I don't think that if that arrowhead is designed
Jarrod Jahoda:to crumple, it's designed to crumple, but Hey, you live your
Jarrod Jahoda:life, man.
Steve Myers:See, this is just all it is.
Steve Myers:It is making a game more complex for the sake of screwing over your players,
Rebecca Gray:which is why we have the house rule that it doesn't work.
Rebecca Gray:I think that I dealt with players who tried to use this and they did not like
Rebecca Gray:my answer which my answer was that it's a myth, that it is an absolute myth that
Lucas:Oh,
Lucas:yeah.
Steve Myers:pop rocks and putting together pop rocks and Coke.
Steve Myers:Everyone knows it's a myth, but no one's willing to do it.
Steve Myers:No one really wants to do the pop rocks and Coke just in case
Steve Myers:it is going to cause problems.
Lucas:Right.
Lucas:Even if it doesn't kill you, it's gotta be a bad time.
Steve Myers:it's, it's going to be uncomfortable and, you know, the.
Steve Myers:They were trying to have an unseen servant deliver it to yeah.
Steve Myers:Instead of the arrow, the arrow is much more concise and I think we
Steve Myers:need more trick arrows like that, you know, like world ending WMD, arrows
Steve Myers:in D&D just need to be a thing.
Rebecca Gray:Yeah.
Rebecca Gray:Let's, let's continue to add more weapons of mass destruction to our games.
Rebecca Gray:Listen,
Steve Myers:I'm learning from the morning.
Steve Myers:All right.
Steve Myers:Morning causing arrows.
Steve Myers:That's what it was.
Steve Myers:Yeah.
Lucas:Someone did it.
Lucas:And now we have the morn land.
Lucas:Okay.
Steve Myers:had a game that took place in a pocket universe we said,
Steve Myers:that's how we ended up there is that we had put a bag of holding into a
Steve Myers:portable hole and ended up there.
Steve Myers:And I, I think that if your players are headed that route.
Steve Myers:have someone else step in like, Okay.
Steve Myers:you guys are messing with time and space.
Steve Myers:The inevitable is of time and space.
Steve Myers:Three, five, go ahead.
Steve Myers:Just whip them out, have them show up and be like, you guys are
Steve Myers:trying to break space and time.
Steve Myers:No, stop it.
Danilo Vujevic:Would I allow it?
Danilo Vujevic:Yes, but with probably so many strings that it would turn off the, the player.
Danilo Vujevic:The one example I saw of the mechanism, it was quite an involved mechanism.
Danilo Vujevic:You know, you've got a pin that holds something in place
Danilo Vujevic:that has to shatter on impact.
Danilo Vujevic:And, obviously with any of these kinds of payload type weapons, you have to be
Danilo Vujevic:able to set it up and arm it essentially beforehand, but still have the strength
Danilo Vujevic:within it to withstand the torque and the pressures of being flung out of a bow.
Danilo Vujevic:I would be like, okay, well a, you need an artificer or maybe a wizard
Danilo Vujevic:and they need a lot of time and you'll need some resources and probably
Danilo Vujevic:some failed experiments and the cost to cover, oh, you've torn a 10 foot
Danilo Vujevic:hole in your lab that landlord is probably not super stoked about.
Jeremy Vine:I feel that dungeon masters, particularly don't like it because you
Jeremy Vine:create these wonderful monster that they get to, you're going to, um, have
Jeremy Vine:against the potty for a long time and they shoot them with one arrow and
Jeremy Vine:suddenly, well, now there's a power vacuum as well as the vacuum of space
Jeremy Vine:that the creatures just being sucked into.
Lucas:Yeah.
Lucas:And nature abhors both.
Lucas:I wonder if this is the kind of thing that you could build an entire
Lucas:adventure around, like the creation of the arrow of total destruction
Jeremy Vine:I would say you could probably build
Jeremy Vine:certainly a module around it.
Jeremy Vine:I probably wouldn't make it an arrow destruction.
Jeremy Vine:I make it like a ballista, like a massive or even a catapult that a
Jeremy Vine:king is trying to build, like, it becomes the nuclear deterrence, like,
Jeremy Vine:if I have this, no one will come against me, but also I've got it.
Jeremy Vine:Now I've got to go out and, and use it against people and take over places.
Jeremy Vine:But the, for the adventure is like at the adventure level,
Jeremy Vine:they have to assemble the pieces.
Jeremy Vine:They have to go out and find a certain bag of holding that will work for, they have
Jeremy Vine:to find a suitable, certain portable hole.
Jeremy Vine:They have to find the right things like the right arrow that will
Jeremy Vine:stand up to just the friction of using it in the first place.
Jeremy Vine:Um, and this, this idea that each level, each little adventure, he's
Jeremy Vine:getting another aspect of this weapon.
Jeremy Vine:And eventually once you have the weapon you're unstoppable and
Jeremy Vine:that's where the campaign ends.
Jeremy Vine:So that's where the adventure is over.
Jeremy Vine:You've got the thing.
Jeremy Vine:Now.
Jeremy Vine:It doesn't matter whether you can use it or not, because you now have it.
Jeremy Vine:It's like just the, just getting there is the.
Lucas:yeah.
Lucas:It's almost like the rod of seven parts, except that instead of creating
Lucas:something out of the lore of the world, we've created something out of like
Lucas:the, you know, the lore of the world,
Lucas:you know what
Jeremy Vine:It's like, it's just suddenly become a really Metta matter idea for it.
Jeremy Vine:It's like out of the rules of the world, we have created a, an artifact
Jeremy Vine:rather than creating the, the artifact first and bringing up rules for it.
Jeremy Vine:I definitely would, consider it certainly.
Jeremy Vine:And I feel that this is something that is built into the game, that there
Jeremy Vine:are these artifacts, these weapons that are too powerful to exist.
Jeremy Vine:These magical swords that can take over your mind, books of ultimate evil,
Jeremy Vine:rings that can rule the world, one ring to rule them, all that kind of thing.
Jeremy Vine:This is built into the game.
Jeremy Vine:I feel that what players want is them on a regular basis.
Jeremy Vine:Uh, rather than remembering that these, these ultimate power will
Jeremy Vine:eventually ultimately corrupt you and you don't want that part of the
Jeremy Vine:story, you just want to get to it.
Jeremy Vine:You just want to achieve the ultimate power.
Lucas:Yeah.
Lucas:Cause then you have this game where you have to manage
Lucas:massive international politics.
Lucas:And I don't know, like, I, I know if that were my game, I'd
Lucas:be like, all right, wait, now
Jeremy Vine:see.
Jeremy Vine:I feel,
Lucas:feels somewhat unsatisfying at that
Jeremy Vine:I think at a certain level, if you've got this arrow,
Jeremy Vine:like nothing can stop you.
Jeremy Vine:Depending how many of the arrows you have if three dragons come against you, you
Jeremy Vine:can shoot all of them with one arrow.
Jeremy Vine:And it does become well that the creatures don't want to be hit with a nuke.
Jeremy Vine:They want to fight back.
Jeremy Vine:So they're going to stop doing preemptive strikes again.
Jeremy Vine:And I think that a lot of the time, particularly fifth edition, people tend
Jeremy Vine:to forget that you're only heroes because you're the main characters, that the
Jeremy Vine:monsters know where they're doing, the monsters don't want to die and they will
Jeremy Vine:come after you if, if they learn that you have something like this, people will try
Jeremy Vine:to take it from here and using it doesn't mean that they contact it from here.
Lucas:Yeah.
Lucas:there's no shortcut to, uh, to invincibility.
Jeremy Vine:And also again that if you can make it so can other people that when,
Lucas:oh yeah.
Lucas:Now you have to make it first.
Jeremy Vine:Now the bandit Lord has it and start shooting you with it.
Jeremy Vine:And it's a lot less fun for, for play characters when suddenly
Jeremy Vine:your exploit is used against you.
Lucas:Especially if the bandit Lord is everywhere.
Lucas:Uh,
Jeremy Vine:Everyone's got a mini vortex grenade that just sucks you into the warp.
Jeremy Vine:Uh, and it's, it's not fun for most people.
Lucas:Yeah.
Lucas:I think this is us sort of encountering the limits items being numbers,
Lucas:being abstracted and physics being not necessarily directly mapped
Lucas:over the real world, because this isn't a game that's designed for
Lucas:realism it's designed for balance.
Lucas:So one of the things that I always like to think of the bag of holding is this is an
Lucas:item that enables us to ignore encumbrance rules so that we can not spend 30 minutes
Lucas:of our weekly session figuring out right.
Lucas:You know, counting pounds.
Lucas:And so then, you know, that's how the bag of holding got here.
Lucas:And then we started to ask a lot of questions about extra dimensional spaces.
Lucas:And I think what happens when you put them together is us throwing up our
Lucas:hands and saying, all right, this is no longer helpful, so they explode.
Steve Myers:well.
Steve Myers:So we streamlined that process in, in my games I was running them by
Steve Myers:saying, all right, we won't do that.
Steve Myers:And in exchange, you guys have a coin purse of infinite holding.
Steve Myers:The coin purse can only take coins.
Steve Myers:They have to be of a printed denomination that exists within the world.
Steve Myers:is the only thing they can go in there and it will automatically
Steve Myers:exchange it based on currency.
Lucas:Oh
Steve Myers:all, yeah, that, that way I could make it easy
Steve Myers:to not have to deal with all of that, because again, I hate math.
Steve Myers:I'm not here for math, I'm here for storytelling.
Steve Myers:And as soon as math gets in the way, I'm not going to enjoy it.
Steve Myers:I
Rebecca Gray:ignoring.
Steve Myers:My first DM did not.
Steve Myers:My first DM was big on encumbrance rules and I, as a had to deal with that.
Steve Myers:Like I was a
Lucas:Oh
Steve Myers:to sneak out a treasure chest full of stuff by being
Lucas:Uh
Lucas:huh.
Steve Myers:it's a suit of heavy armor guys.
Steve Myers:I don't know what you want.
Steve Myers:It's armor in there.
Steve Myers:We carry it out for me.
Steve Myers:I'm too weak to physically carry out this treasure.
Steve Myers:Please it for me.
Lucas:Yeah.
Lucas:I mean, that would prevent your rogues from putting a, you know, a massive oil
Lucas:painted portrait of great value into their pocket and then sneaking out the window.
Lucas:So, you know, there's,
Steve Myers:Yeah.
Steve Myers:That is also true.
Lucas:there's a level at which some of this is useful.
Lucas:And I think we've gotten that we've gotten the Arrowhead of total destruction at the
Lucas:limit of which, you know, by, by taking some of these quality of life improvements
Lucas:and then asking the kinds of questions, they were never meant to withstand.
Steve Myers:Yeah.
Steve Myers:Yeah.
Steve Myers:Yeah.
Steve Myers:I think that everyone wanted game to be as streamlined as
Steve Myers:possible and not have problems.
Steve Myers:And then we had to push the envelope.
Rebecca Gray:I mean, but that's the natural thing when it comes to a lot
Rebecca Gray:of, a lot of D&D is people go, but what if I did this, which is the brilliant
Rebecca Gray:part about D&D is that people can go.
Rebecca Gray:But, but what if I, but what if I, there could a bunch of swords in my bag of
Rebecca Gray:holding, which would a rift in the bag of holding, but I knew exactly where in the
Rebecca Gray:Astro plane, my bag of holding would rift to, and I put a portal on the other side
Rebecca Gray:and all of those swords would go shooting out of the portal and into the dragons.
Steve Myers:Yeah, that's your
Rebecca Gray:welcome new cheese, birthday.
Lucas:the idea here is the wireless troll.
Lucas:And this one only works because we have DNDs picture of trolls
Lucas:as almost fungus people.
Jeremy Vine:Yeah, I feel instead of a troll, a probably
Jeremy Vine:a better example is Wolverine.
Jeremy Vine:I'm going into and going, well, maybe even Deadpool.
Jeremy Vine:That's a, another good example of this idea that no matter how severe
Jeremy Vine:the injury, eventually you'll be regenerating from a certain point.
Jarrod Jahoda:Yeah.
Jarrod Jahoda:So the idea is that eventually, somehow your party kills a troll.
Jarrod Jahoda:You then take the troll and chop it up into exactly equal pieces.
Lucas:Precision is important.
Jarrod Jahoda:Yeah.
Jarrod Jahoda:Because the way that in some fantasy settings, trolls work, as they regenerate
Jarrod Jahoda:from the largest leftover piece.
Jeremy Vine:And the idea of the wireless troll is essentially that
Jeremy Vine:trolls regenerate a lot unless they take fire or acid damage.
Jeremy Vine:As a fun aside, they believe this is because the troll god will eat you
Jeremy Vine:when you die if you have been burned because you're ready to cook or if
Jeremy Vine:you've already been half digested.
Jeremy Vine:Uh, so he's fine with that.
Jeremy Vine:And that's why trolls believed that they are only vulnerable for these things
Jeremy Vine:because otherwise they grow back there.
Jeremy Vine:Okay.
Jeremy Vine:And this idea that if you are on a journey, uh, you cut off a finger
Jeremy Vine:or a hand or something of the trial, and it will grow the hand back.
Jarrod Jahoda:So by cutting them all up into like one inch cubes or
Jarrod Jahoda:whatever, which how anyone would know to do this is a, like a really
Jarrod Jahoda:high nature check in my opinion.
Jarrod Jahoda:And then you like leave pieces or leave a piece with like someone you
Jarrod Jahoda:really like to let them know, or maybe you have multiple pieces that
Jarrod Jahoda:you leave and you like from different trolls and you like tag them all.
Jarrod Jahoda:So, you know, which troll goes to which person, right?
Jarrod Jahoda:The idea being that if they ever need you and they're in dire straights,
Jarrod Jahoda:they just cut up their small piece of troll, which then your piece
Jarrod Jahoda:of troll begins regenerating.
Jarrod Jahoda:And because it's growing bigger, you realize that.
Jarrod Jahoda:And you're like, oh, Bob needs us back in Bob town.
Jarrod Jahoda:And so you can go back to Bob town.
Jarrod Jahoda:So it's like this, it's like a more involved in less efficient
Jarrod Jahoda:way of like the sending spell.
Jeremy Vine:But you carry that, that troll hand with you, that
Jeremy Vine:stumpy hand and keep it in a bag.
Jeremy Vine:And if your followers need to get a message to you urgently, what they
Jeremy Vine:can do is tell the troll this cause that you've got them captured.
Jeremy Vine:Apparently if you've been able to cut up the hand, they kill the troll and
Jeremy Vine:cut them into tiny, tiny little bits.
Jeremy Vine:And then the hand that you have of the troll is the largest piece of the troll.
Jeremy Vine:So that's what regenerates, that's what grows the troll again.
Jeremy Vine:And now it can tell you the message.
Jeremy Vine:And I can see that working.
Jeremy Vine:I like that idea of honestly, Wolverine being able to do that.
Jeremy Vine:Well, you got to have a certain amount of body left and it's like, great.
Jeremy Vine:That's that's the bit that, uh, I mean, even I'm going to doctor who, I mean, I
Jeremy Vine:feel that's something that happened in the David Tennant run that I had got chopped
Jeremy Vine:off and they were able to grow a new
Lucas:whole deal.
Jeremy Vine:Grow a new doctor from just a hand.
Jeremy Vine:And it's the, kind of the same idea that, but what level does
Jeremy Vine:the memory get maintained as a dungeon master is so ripe for abuse.
Jeremy Vine:So ripe for abuse, that the fact that you're keeping a captive troll
Jeremy Vine:I mean, this is where the ethical concern start to come up for me.
Jeremy Vine:Like where do you draw the line of, uh, trolls are, trolls are kind of evil
Jeremy Vine:for the most part, but not necessarily.
Jeremy Vine:It's a very D&D thing.
Jeremy Vine:Cause I don't think trolls always have these regenerative ability in, in mythos,
Jeremy Vine:in the folklore that we have in our world.
Jeremy Vine:The trolls are the three Billy Goats, Gruff.
Jeremy Vine:Oh, hide under bridges and I attack people.
Jeremy Vine:Um, I mean, if you look at Discworld, which I usually do, trolls are not
Jeremy Vine:even, flesh and blood , they are stone and they're just super tough.
Jeremy Vine:They're not regenerative.
Jeremy Vine:You can damage them with a pickax, but uh, you're not going to be able to like
Jeremy Vine:patch it back up with plaster later on.
Jarrod Jahoda:So I think it's hilarious as hell, and really, ingenious in
Jarrod Jahoda:a way, but it's built entirely off of meta knowledge, you know, um,
Lucas:break that down for me.
Jarrod Jahoda:So the meta knowledge being like, oh, well, trolls regenerate from
Jarrod Jahoda:the largest pieces in fantasy setting XYZ.
Jarrod Jahoda:Right?
Jarrod Jahoda:That's the meta knowledge.
Jarrod Jahoda:If you want your ranger to be able to figure that out, well, they are going
Jarrod Jahoda:to have to have whatever creature type trolls are in your setting as
Jarrod Jahoda:their favored enemy in like five V.
Jarrod Jahoda:I think they are giants by default.
Lucas:Yeah, they are some, they're this weird sort of fungal variant of giant.
Jarrod Jahoda:Yeah.
Jarrod Jahoda:So your favored enemy would have to be giants.
Jarrod Jahoda:Number one, number two, you have to be proficient in nature.
Jarrod Jahoda:And number three, you would have to roll like a 30 nature check to figure this out.
Jarrod Jahoda:Right.
Jarrod Jahoda:Which is possible.
Jarrod Jahoda:But then I would require like a 30 survival check add five days to chop
Jarrod Jahoda:it up into all these little pieces.
Jarrod Jahoda:What are you gonna do with the rest of the pieces?
Jarrod Jahoda:Because if any piece gets cut up damaged, eaten by a bird, then other
Jarrod Jahoda:than another piece will start growing.
Jarrod Jahoda:So you have to do that.
Jarrod Jahoda:Oh, you just burn all the other pieces, like, okay, maybe that's possible,
Jarrod Jahoda:but if you bury them, maybe they all like, just stick back together
Jarrod Jahoda:and then you get a mutated troll and your pieces are in dirt anyway.
Jarrod Jahoda:So it's a fun idea.
Jarrod Jahoda:And there's ways to like really mess with them if they want to put the time into it.
Jarrod Jahoda:Um, so I really liked the idea.
Jarrod Jahoda:It's so creative, but also I want them to try, but I also
Jarrod Jahoda:don't want them to succeed.
Rebecca Gray:Okay.
So here's my issue with that:at what, at what point, at what point
So here's my issue with that:does the finger of the troll not count anymore as part of the troll?
So here's my issue with that:I would say for me, gosh, I love this.
Steve Myers:I would say
Rebecca Gray:for me, Either A, once the troll regrows his
Rebecca Gray:finger, it doesn't work anymore.
Rebecca Gray:B that trolls are like earthworms and the finger, once far enough
Rebecca Gray:away from the original troll, will just start regenerating anyway.
Jeremy Vine:And at what point does it become you?
Jeremy Vine:It's a little bit of Theseus' Boat as well.
Jeremy Vine:It's like which one is the, is the, you?
Jeremy Vine:Oh, the Ship of Theseus, I should say.
Danilo Vujevic:Like in the example, it's that they start growing from
Danilo Vujevic:the finger, which, which implies I kind of have to regenerate a brain.
Danilo Vujevic:And at which point is it the same troll or is it a different troll?
Danilo Vujevic:And they
Lucas:oh yeah.
Danilo Vujevic:and the memories and surely they have
Danilo Vujevic:a brain cause they're humanoid.
Danilo Vujevic:So you would imagine their brain is in, not in their fingertip.
Danilo Vujevic:Which is where memories are stored as far as we know.
Danilo Vujevic:And I think it's broadly applicable to 99.9% of humanoids.
Danilo Vujevic:Maybe that's what I would argue actually.
Danilo Vujevic:Now I've, I've thought it out and spoken out, maybe in my world at
Danilo Vujevic:the troll would regenerate at the fingertip, but just be like, ah, why
Danilo Vujevic:have you bought me into this world?
Danilo Vujevic:And just be like, this is a horrible experience and I'm, I I'm
Danilo Vujevic:pissed and I know nothing about anything, cause I'm a neutral.
Danilo Vujevic:which would be hilarious.
Danilo Vujevic:I'd love to play that like a troll being born and there were eagerly
Danilo Vujevic:waiting their message for it.
Danilo Vujevic:Just to be like in agony.
Danilo Vujevic:I was just angry at being born in such a horrible manner.
Jeremy Vine:And I love the idea of a wireless troll of sending messages.
Jeremy Vine:It's like, I feel this probably works in an evil campaign.
Jeremy Vine:If you, if you want to show your players that somebody is a really bad guy, that
Jeremy Vine:is what you have them, or you have them send, like they just send a hand and then
Jeremy Vine:suddenly an entire troll pops out of it and goes, I've got a message for you.
Jeremy Vine:What, what on earth is going on here?
Jeremy Vine:And now they're going to find a troll too.
Jeremy Vine:So.
Lucas:Oh, yeah, of course naturally.
Jeremy Vine:That's a good way to do the quantum ogre as well.
Jeremy Vine:You just have them show up with like a little troll head that
Jeremy Vine:suddenly pops up and you've got a full troll coming out of it.
Lucas:Yeah.
Lucas:Um, I call it the kick, the dog moment, like in the same way that the hero has to
Lucas:save the cat, the villain has to kick the puppy and, uh, this would be a great way.
Lucas:Like there's always that thing that villains do to let them
Lucas:know it's okay to hate them.
Lucas:Usually it's they're hard on their lackeys.
Jeremy Vine:Crossing that moral event horizons, like how could
Jeremy Vine:you be mean to that person?
Jeremy Vine:We thought you were a good, bad guy, but you're actually just fully evil.
Jeremy Vine:Whereas I like to have the pet the dog moment, uh, which is not basically
Jeremy Vine:the opposite where you have the villain, do something nice and show
Jeremy Vine:that they do have on a insert in regards to just their beliefs, uh, more
Jeremy Vine:important than the rest of the world.
Jarrod Jahoda:I would probably have it as like a big, bad wizard
Jarrod Jahoda:type character who has essentially little jars filled with bits of
Jarrod Jahoda:trolls from all of his lieutenants.
Jarrod Jahoda:Like that's how you became a Lieutenant for him, right?
Jarrod Jahoda:Like you had to go out and slay a troll and dice it up.
Jarrod Jahoda:And like, you don't know why he doesn't tell you until afterwards.
Jarrod Jahoda:And he's like, all right, you're a Lieutenant.
Jarrod Jahoda:Here's your bit of troll.
Jarrod Jahoda:This is what you do with it.
Jarrod Jahoda:And this is what I do with it.
Jarrod Jahoda:And if it ever starts growing, you better report here on the double with
Jarrod Jahoda:all your armies or whatever it is.
Jarrod Jahoda:And so like all, and maybe that's the adventuring hook.
Jarrod Jahoda:Every time they defeat one of the lieutenants, they find like this
Jarrod Jahoda:glass vial that just has like a one inch cube of rotting flesh in it.
Jarrod Jahoda:No reason.
Jarrod Jahoda:And eventually they identify that it's a troll and then they learn that it's like,
Jarrod Jahoda:oh, they're all from different trolls.
Jarrod Jahoda:And you know, so it's like this adventure look like who is doing this and why?
Lucas:Yeah, this is messed up.
Lucas:We got,
Jarrod Jahoda:Yeah.
Jarrod Jahoda:I don't know who's doing this, but they got some issues they need a counselor.
Jarrod Jahoda:Meanwhile, like troll wizard here in the back is like, yes, yes.
Jarrod Jahoda:Succumb to my plans!
Lucas:Oh man, can I put troll wizard on the list?
Lucas:Cause I want to do that.
Jarrod Jahoda:Yeah.
Jarrod Jahoda:You know, there's like Grushek the Troll Wizard who has like become the predominant
Jarrod Jahoda:troll in his area because he's just killed all the other trolls to use them
Jarrod Jahoda:as early warning triggers or whatever.
Lucas:Oh man.
Jarrod Jahoda:I liked his idea.
Jarrod Jahoda:I'm glad we've talked about this.
Jarrod Jahoda:I'm going to use this.
Lucas:If this becomes anything, like if you ever write that out, let me know.
Lucas:I will play test the heck out of it.
Jarrod Jahoda:I love it
Lucas:I just.
Lucas:So many of these are, are better off in the DM's toolbox.
Jarrod Jahoda:Now.
Jarrod Jahoda:And in five V specifically, player characters are super powerful.
Jarrod Jahoda:So why would you give them something like that?
Jarrod Jahoda:Leave that as like a bad guy to give the bad guy an edge, you know,
Lucas:Yeah.
Lucas:And talking of like morally ambiguous villains, um, who do you have to be to,
Lucas:to even to conceive of this and then, you know, muscle through and actually do it?
Jarrod Jahoda:uh, I think you have to have been picked on in
Jarrod Jahoda:a playground a lot and have a, a very vengeful sense of justice.
Danilo Vujevic:Out of everything we've discussed, this is the most plausible
Danilo Vujevic:and the most grounded, I think, as you put it, because it is apart from one very
Danilo Vujevic:literal rules as written, utilization of the rules is otherwise completely mundane.
Danilo Vujevic:Um, the only caveats would be this again, it's always, it's always because
Danilo Vujevic:of the implication for the waste 90 fans out there, uh, with me and.
Danilo Vujevic:You know, when my players to do this, then there might be some questions
Danilo Vujevic:around like kind of the grim reality of what they are attempting to do and
Danilo Vujevic:any witnesses and so on and so on.
Danilo Vujevic:Otherwise, no, it, you know, if it were a big, bad evil
Danilo Vujevic:guy then yeah, it's plausible.
Danilo Vujevic:I think what else that alone is it's plausible, but
Danilo Vujevic:unlikely for various reasons.
Danilo Vujevic:One being is that I hope my player characters wouldn't get there
Danilo Vujevic:because not that they will have to be heroes, but even pushing it.
Danilo Vujevic:This is pushing the definition of heroics.
Danilo Vujevic:And secondly, my specific big, bad would not resort to something
Danilo Vujevic:is, beneath him as, as well.
Danilo Vujevic:This is, um, And I would like to think that many other big bads would
Danilo Vujevic:have more sophisticated means of long range communicate, uh, that doesn't
Danilo Vujevic:revolve harrowing experience even for the most gruesome of goblins.
Lucas:Can we call this counter cheese?
Lucas:Like I see your cheese and I raise you more cheese.
Rebecca Gray:here is stinkier cheese.
Rebecca Gray:Steve's over here grimacing at me.
Steve Myers:Well, I don't like it.
Steve Myers:Like three, five had clones as well.
Steve Myers:Like there was a clone smell in the psionics, so you could actually make
Steve Myers:clones of people and that all just, I can't man, I can't my brain, my brain
Steve Myers:refuses to be involved in any of that.
Steve Myers:It's it's a nightmare.
Steve Myers:It is a logistical nightmare.
Steve Myers:What if you're all the same exact size?
Steve Myers:All of the cubes, same exact size.
Steve Myers:What happens.
Rebecca Gray:Yeah, I don't know.
Rebecca Gray:Could you cube something?
Rebecca Gray:All the, the exact same size that let's be real is isn't that
Lucas:Yeah to what
Steve Myers:I, imagine I could get two cubes out of it.
Steve Myers:Two cubes, the exact same size, and then burn the rest of it.
Lucas:Just statistically speaking
Steve Myers:two fingers.
Steve Myers:Exact same size, both.
Steve Myers:Yeah.
Steve Myers:Like here, here's where we're at.
Steve Myers:And now, now what happens?
Steve Myers:I don't want to like, yeah, no, I know this is no, I'm sorry guys.
Steve Myers:Just it doesn't work.
Steve Myers:That's not the way trolls work.
Steve Myers:You guys are wrong on so many levels.
Steve Myers:You've kept a troll captive.
Lucas:Your cheese scientists were too busy wondering whether they
Lucas:could to ask whether they should.
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Jeremy Vine:I'm Jeremy Vine, I'm a professional dungeon master.
Jeremy Vine:You can find me on social media on Twitter at Talumin, T A L U M I N,
Jeremy Vine:or you can listen to my podcasts Tell Me About Your D&D Character,
Jeremy Vine:which is on SoundCloud or D&D and TV
Jarrod Jahoda:My name is Jarrod Jahoda, and you can find me on any podcast
Jarrod Jahoda:platform under Mid-level Adventurers.
Jarrod Jahoda:I'm one half of the creative team.
Jarrod Jahoda:Matt is the other half, or you can catch Matt and I on Newly Forged,
Jarrod Jahoda:which is our Twitch stream D&D game.
Jarrod Jahoda:It's a homebrew game set in a post-apocalyptic magical world.
Jarrod Jahoda:And, uh, you can follow us on Instagram, Twitter at mid LVL
Jarrod Jahoda:adventure to keep updated.
Jarrod Jahoda:And we've recently started releasing our podcast episodes on YouTube as well.
Danilo Vujevic:I'm Danilo, the host/producer/editor of Thinking
Danilo Vujevic:Critically, a D&D discussion podcast where we take a single word or
Danilo Vujevic:topic and discuss what it means in the D&D and wider TTRPG framework.
Danilo Vujevic:that has been going on now for almost 65 episodes and a year and a bit weekly drops
Danilo Vujevic:everything from your esoteric, left-field, weird things that you would never
Danilo Vujevic:attribute to D&D all the way to encounters and experience, and much more obvious
Danilo Vujevic:topics, including soft skills, such as friendship and social and meta things such
Danilo Vujevic:as podcasts, which was a weird itself.
Danilo Vujevic:Naval Naval gazing.
Danilo Vujevic:One to record.
Rebecca Gray:Hello, I'm Rebecca
Steve Myers:and I'm Steven.
Rebecca Gray:And we are from A House Sivis Broadcasting Eberron
Rebecca Gray:A Chronicle of Echoes podcast.
Rebecca Gray:It's a very different kind of podcast.
Rebecca Gray:We're a little bit scripted, a little bit improv and a whole lot of fun.
Rebecca Gray:So we hope that you'll stop in and check us out and find out what
Rebecca Gray:it's like when D&D meets radio.
Lucas:We'll be back next week.