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Arrow of Destruction & The Wireless Troll
Episode 314th March 2022 • Making a Monster • Lucas Zellers
00:00:00 00:36:08

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D&D players have spent almost 50 years breaking the game. This week: the arrowhead of total destruction, nuclear warhead powered by extradimensional spaces; and the wireless troll, communication via regeneration.

Read the transcript and get more from the show:

https://scintilla.studio/monster-arrow-of-destruction-wireless-troll/

Get stat blocks, bonus content, and other monstrous perks: www.patreon.com/scintillastudio

Join the conversation: www.twitter.com/SparkOtter

Meet my guests:

Jeremy Vine: www.twitter.com/talumin

Jarrod Jahoda, Mid-Level Adventurers: www.twitter.com/midlvladventure

Danilo Vujevic, Thinking Critically: https://www.thinkingcritically.co.uk/

Rebecca Gray and Steven Myers, Eberron: A Chronicle of Echoes: https://www.sivisechoerstation.com/

Music by Jason Shaw at Audionautix.com

Transcripts

Rebecca Gray:

You guys are doing specific monsters from older.

Steve Myers:

That's not specific cheats.

Steve Myers:

It is different cheeses,

Rebecca Gray:

Cheeses!

Rebecca Gray:

We're cheesing things I don't know if that's what you call it.

Lucas:

uh it's going to be what I call it now, because it's way better.

Lucas:

Because a lot of the ways in which the game has created its own

Lucas:

lore, its own D&D cryptids started back in third edition and 3.5.

Lucas:

and Fifth edition stands at the top of this teetering tower of nonsense that is

Lucas:

50 years old and has given rise to a huge variety of things that are just in the

Lucas:

game now and have names and wander about the world of D&D in the same way that

Lucas:

wandering monsters roam around dungeons.

Lucas:

So

Rebecca Gray:

peasant rail gun,

Danilo Vujevic:

something like the quantum ogre,

Jeremy Vine:

I loathe the arrow of destruction,

Lucas:

the False Hydra,

Jarrod Jahoda:

a wireless troll,

Steve Myers:

Larry the Kung Fu Kraken.

Steve Myers:

I hate this one, so, so much.

Lucas:

Welcome to Making a Monster, the bite-sized podcast where we look

Lucas:

at the monsters in Dungeons and dragons and other tabletop RPGs and discover

Lucas:

how they work, why they work and what they mean for these episodes.

Lucas:

I've assembled a crack team of D and D podcasters from all over

Lucas:

the world to track down monsters, born of the system itself.

Jeremy Vine:

I'm Jeremy vine, I'm a professional dungeon master.

Jarrod Jahoda:

My name is Jarrod Jahoda, and you can find me on any podcast

Jarrod Jahoda:

platform under Mid-level Adventurers.

Danilo Vujevic:

I'm Danilo, the host/producer/editor of Thinking

Danilo Vujevic:

Critically, a D&D discussion podcast where we take a single word or

Danilo Vujevic:

topic and discuss what it means in the D&D and wider TTRPG framework.

Rebecca Gray:

Hello, I'm Rebecca

Steve Myers:

and I'm Steven.

Rebecca Gray:

And we are from A House Sivis Broadcasting Eberron

Rebecca Gray:

A Chronicle of Echoes podcast.

Lucas:

So let's talk cheese!

Lucas:

we'll move on.

Lucas:

Cause

Rebecca Gray:

going.

Lucas:

yeah, cause I want to talk about one thing that I know has changed from

Lucas:

older editions to this edition are the exact mechanics of the way portable

Lucas:

holes and bags of holding work, and it's still bad putting them together.

Lucas:

And I think it used to be worse.

Jeremy Vine:

So the idea is that there are dimensional spaces like a bag of holding.

Jeremy Vine:

The bag, you can just put as much stuff- well, a lot of stuff into,

Jeremy Vine:

and also things like a portable hole, which is a hole that you can put in

Jeremy Vine:

the ground very much Bugs Bunny, where you can just kind of draw a hole in the

Jeremy Vine:

ground and then jump in and then pull the hole above you so you're hidden.

Jeremy Vine:

Another one is rope trick, which is actually a spell where you basically

Jeremy Vine:

just drop a rope and you climb up the rope and you hide in a little

Jeremy Vine:

cabin at the top and the only thing, and then you can pull the rope after

Jeremy Vine:

you so no one knows you're in there.

Jeremy Vine:

Uh, there's a really interesting, I think in Eberron, where they've got

Jeremy Vine:

these, the electric trains, and all of the first class cabins are actually

Jeremy Vine:

these extra dimensional spaces.

Jeremy Vine:

So you can have these gorgeous rooms and libraries, while you're

Jeremy Vine:

still traveling on the train.

Jeremy Vine:

But there is a problem when these things start to interact because.

Jeremy Vine:

I guess two negatives in a positive world kind of thing.

Jeremy Vine:

really force these things together, there's going to be a bit of blowback.

Jeremy Vine:

A lot of people wonder what happens if you put a portable hole into a bag

Jeremy Vine:

of holding and previous editions, I believe it was something very nasty.

Lucas:

So someone of a mechanical bent has devised a way in which we can use this

Lucas:

particular interaction to create a weapon of mass destruction for very little cost.

Lucas:

I don't know if I sent you the diagram that I found, but

Lucas:

I feel like this isn't the

Lucas:

only,

Jarrod Jahoda:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lucas:

when was the first time you saw this?

Jarrod Jahoda:

Probably about 10 years ago or so.

Jarrod Jahoda:

You know, like a lot of these things, they originated in someone's home game

Jarrod Jahoda:

and a thought experiment somewhere.

Jarrod Jahoda:

And it wasn't until really like the late nineties, early two thousands when

Jarrod Jahoda:

the internet became popular and there were message boards and websites and

Jarrod Jahoda:

forums where people could start talking about and really refining these ideas.

Jarrod Jahoda:

And so the D&D forums lit up with all of these things.

Jarrod Jahoda:

And the Arrowhead of Mass Destruction is one of them.

Jarrod Jahoda:

It's this idea where you roll up a portable hole and put it in

Jarrod Jahoda:

a like special compactor thing, right in front of a bag of holding.

Jarrod Jahoda:

And when the arrowhead impacts, the portable hole gets shoved into the

Jarrod Jahoda:

bag of holding and detonates a massive explosion because in older editions,

Jarrod Jahoda:

that's what happened when two intraplanar devices tried to swallow one another.

Jarrod Jahoda:

It was just too much for the universe.

Jarrod Jahoda:

And so a massive explosion, occurred, killing everything in anything, destroying

Jarrod Jahoda:

castles and walls and all this nonsense.

Danilo Vujevic:

The interaction between these two extraplanar items causes

Danilo Vujevic:

a rupture in spacetime and tears the fabric of reality apart and things go

Danilo Vujevic:

flying and this, that, and the other.

Danilo Vujevic:

So you're turning an otherwise one d6 arrow into a 10 foot sphere of,

Danilo Vujevic:

delete the terrain here, please.

Jarrod Jahoda:

In fifth edition, it's narrowed down so that if two extra

Jarrod Jahoda:

planar openings or bags or holes or whatever, go into one another, they

Jarrod Jahoda:

just destroy themselves and spit out everything that was in them, which is

Jarrod Jahoda:

a much more like non-lethal version.

Jeremy Vine:

I loathe the arrow of destruction, which as a dungeon

Jeremy Vine:

master, I just call garbage.

Jeremy Vine:

I just don't allow anything like that.

Jeremy Vine:

It's the equivalent of creating a mini black hole gun and going, yeah, I'm

Jeremy Vine:

going to go down the shops and rob a bank with the mini black hole gun inside.

Jeremy Vine:

It's probably not a good idea, uh, just to have in general.

Jeremy Vine:

So I generally just say it doesn't doesn't work.

Jeremy Vine:

But it was this weapon of mass destruction that players figured out,

Jeremy Vine:

Hey, I can do that pretty easily.

Jeremy Vine:

I can get these things together.

Jeremy Vine:

It's an interesting idea.

Jeremy Vine:

Um, it's certainly a, a nuclear option.

Jarrod Jahoda:

The first time I ever saw this particular idea, I was all aboard.

Jarrod Jahoda:

I was in it.

Jarrod Jahoda:

I was like, if you can find those things and if you can craft that arrow without

Jarrod Jahoda:

killing yourself, you can use that arrow because if you think about it,

Jarrod Jahoda:

you're working with two highly volatile.

Jarrod Jahoda:

Well, they're not volatile.

Jarrod Jahoda:

They are perfectly safe to use by themselves, but the closer they get to one

Jarrod Jahoda:

another and they gotta be pretty close.

Jarrod Jahoda:

If you're going to put them into an Arrowhead, then if you can figure that

Jarrod Jahoda:

out and in such a way where not only can you manufacture it, but carry it safely.

Jarrod Jahoda:

Like, I'm like, if it was me and some of done that, but they have

Jarrod Jahoda:

been like, we've made this thing.

Jarrod Jahoda:

I'm like, okay, you have successfully made this thing.

Jarrod Jahoda:

How are you transporting it?

Jarrod Jahoda:

I'm just going to put it in my quiver.

Jarrod Jahoda:

Are you now?

Lucas:

you know,

Jarrod Jahoda:

Okay, let me know how that works.

Jarrod Jahoda:

The next time somebody kicks you in the backside or you

Jarrod Jahoda:

get smacked by a falling rock.

Jarrod Jahoda:

Cause, uh, I don't think that if that arrowhead is designed

Jarrod Jahoda:

to crumple, it's designed to crumple, but Hey, you live your

Jarrod Jahoda:

life, man.

Steve Myers:

See, this is just all it is.

Steve Myers:

It is making a game more complex for the sake of screwing over your players,

Rebecca Gray:

which is why we have the house rule that it doesn't work.

Rebecca Gray:

I think that I dealt with players who tried to use this and they did not like

Rebecca Gray:

my answer which my answer was that it's a myth, that it is an absolute myth that

Lucas:

Oh,

Lucas:

yeah.

Steve Myers:

pop rocks and putting together pop rocks and Coke.

Steve Myers:

Everyone knows it's a myth, but no one's willing to do it.

Steve Myers:

No one really wants to do the pop rocks and Coke just in case

Steve Myers:

it is going to cause problems.

Lucas:

Right.

Lucas:

Even if it doesn't kill you, it's gotta be a bad time.

Steve Myers:

it's, it's going to be uncomfortable and, you know, the.

Steve Myers:

They were trying to have an unseen servant deliver it to yeah.

Steve Myers:

Instead of the arrow, the arrow is much more concise and I think we

Steve Myers:

need more trick arrows like that, you know, like world ending WMD, arrows

Steve Myers:

in D&D just need to be a thing.

Rebecca Gray:

Yeah.

Rebecca Gray:

Let's, let's continue to add more weapons of mass destruction to our games.

Rebecca Gray:

Listen,

Steve Myers:

I'm learning from the morning.

Steve Myers:

All right.

Steve Myers:

Morning causing arrows.

Steve Myers:

That's what it was.

Steve Myers:

Yeah.

Lucas:

Someone did it.

Lucas:

And now we have the morn land.

Lucas:

Okay.

Steve Myers:

had a game that took place in a pocket universe we said,

Steve Myers:

that's how we ended up there is that we had put a bag of holding into a

Steve Myers:

portable hole and ended up there.

Steve Myers:

And I, I think that if your players are headed that route.

Steve Myers:

have someone else step in like, Okay.

Steve Myers:

you guys are messing with time and space.

Steve Myers:

The inevitable is of time and space.

Steve Myers:

Three, five, go ahead.

Steve Myers:

Just whip them out, have them show up and be like, you guys are

Steve Myers:

trying to break space and time.

Steve Myers:

No, stop it.

Danilo Vujevic:

Would I allow it?

Danilo Vujevic:

Yes, but with probably so many strings that it would turn off the, the player.

Danilo Vujevic:

The one example I saw of the mechanism, it was quite an involved mechanism.

Danilo Vujevic:

You know, you've got a pin that holds something in place

Danilo Vujevic:

that has to shatter on impact.

Danilo Vujevic:

And, obviously with any of these kinds of payload type weapons, you have to be

Danilo Vujevic:

able to set it up and arm it essentially beforehand, but still have the strength

Danilo Vujevic:

within it to withstand the torque and the pressures of being flung out of a bow.

Danilo Vujevic:

I would be like, okay, well a, you need an artificer or maybe a wizard

Danilo Vujevic:

and they need a lot of time and you'll need some resources and probably

Danilo Vujevic:

some failed experiments and the cost to cover, oh, you've torn a 10 foot

Danilo Vujevic:

hole in your lab that landlord is probably not super stoked about.

Jeremy Vine:

I feel that dungeon masters, particularly don't like it because you

Jeremy Vine:

create these wonderful monster that they get to, you're going to, um, have

Jeremy Vine:

against the potty for a long time and they shoot them with one arrow and

Jeremy Vine:

suddenly, well, now there's a power vacuum as well as the vacuum of space

Jeremy Vine:

that the creatures just being sucked into.

Lucas:

Yeah.

Lucas:

And nature abhors both.

Lucas:

I wonder if this is the kind of thing that you could build an entire

Lucas:

adventure around, like the creation of the arrow of total destruction

Jeremy Vine:

I would say you could probably build

Jeremy Vine:

certainly a module around it.

Jeremy Vine:

I probably wouldn't make it an arrow destruction.

Jeremy Vine:

I make it like a ballista, like a massive or even a catapult that a

Jeremy Vine:

king is trying to build, like, it becomes the nuclear deterrence, like,

Jeremy Vine:

if I have this, no one will come against me, but also I've got it.

Jeremy Vine:

Now I've got to go out and, and use it against people and take over places.

Jeremy Vine:

But the, for the adventure is like at the adventure level,

Jeremy Vine:

they have to assemble the pieces.

Jeremy Vine:

They have to go out and find a certain bag of holding that will work for, they have

Jeremy Vine:

to find a suitable, certain portable hole.

Jeremy Vine:

They have to find the right things like the right arrow that will

Jeremy Vine:

stand up to just the friction of using it in the first place.

Jeremy Vine:

Um, and this, this idea that each level, each little adventure, he's

Jeremy Vine:

getting another aspect of this weapon.

Jeremy Vine:

And eventually once you have the weapon you're unstoppable and

Jeremy Vine:

that's where the campaign ends.

Jeremy Vine:

So that's where the adventure is over.

Jeremy Vine:

You've got the thing.

Jeremy Vine:

Now.

Jeremy Vine:

It doesn't matter whether you can use it or not, because you now have it.

Jeremy Vine:

It's like just the, just getting there is the.

Lucas:

yeah.

Lucas:

It's almost like the rod of seven parts, except that instead of creating

Lucas:

something out of the lore of the world, we've created something out of like

Lucas:

the, you know, the lore of the world,

Lucas:

you know what

Jeremy Vine:

It's like, it's just suddenly become a really Metta matter idea for it.

Jeremy Vine:

It's like out of the rules of the world, we have created a, an artifact

Jeremy Vine:

rather than creating the, the artifact first and bringing up rules for it.

Jeremy Vine:

I definitely would, consider it certainly.

Jeremy Vine:

And I feel that this is something that is built into the game, that there

Jeremy Vine:

are these artifacts, these weapons that are too powerful to exist.

Jeremy Vine:

These magical swords that can take over your mind, books of ultimate evil,

Jeremy Vine:

rings that can rule the world, one ring to rule them, all that kind of thing.

Jeremy Vine:

This is built into the game.

Jeremy Vine:

I feel that what players want is them on a regular basis.

Jeremy Vine:

Uh, rather than remembering that these, these ultimate power will

Jeremy Vine:

eventually ultimately corrupt you and you don't want that part of the

Jeremy Vine:

story, you just want to get to it.

Jeremy Vine:

You just want to achieve the ultimate power.

Lucas:

Yeah.

Lucas:

Cause then you have this game where you have to manage

Lucas:

massive international politics.

Lucas:

And I don't know, like, I, I know if that were my game, I'd

Lucas:

be like, all right, wait, now

Jeremy Vine:

see.

Jeremy Vine:

I feel,

Lucas:

feels somewhat unsatisfying at that

Jeremy Vine:

I think at a certain level, if you've got this arrow,

Jeremy Vine:

like nothing can stop you.

Jeremy Vine:

Depending how many of the arrows you have if three dragons come against you, you

Jeremy Vine:

can shoot all of them with one arrow.

Jeremy Vine:

And it does become well that the creatures don't want to be hit with a nuke.

Jeremy Vine:

They want to fight back.

Jeremy Vine:

So they're going to stop doing preemptive strikes again.

Jeremy Vine:

And I think that a lot of the time, particularly fifth edition, people tend

Jeremy Vine:

to forget that you're only heroes because you're the main characters, that the

Jeremy Vine:

monsters know where they're doing, the monsters don't want to die and they will

Jeremy Vine:

come after you if, if they learn that you have something like this, people will try

Jeremy Vine:

to take it from here and using it doesn't mean that they contact it from here.

Lucas:

Yeah.

Lucas:

there's no shortcut to, uh, to invincibility.

Jeremy Vine:

And also again that if you can make it so can other people that when,

Lucas:

oh yeah.

Lucas:

Now you have to make it first.

Jeremy Vine:

Now the bandit Lord has it and start shooting you with it.

Jeremy Vine:

And it's a lot less fun for, for play characters when suddenly

Jeremy Vine:

your exploit is used against you.

Lucas:

Especially if the bandit Lord is everywhere.

Lucas:

Uh,

Jeremy Vine:

Everyone's got a mini vortex grenade that just sucks you into the warp.

Jeremy Vine:

Uh, and it's, it's not fun for most people.

Lucas:

Yeah.

Lucas:

I think this is us sort of encountering the limits items being numbers,

Lucas:

being abstracted and physics being not necessarily directly mapped

Lucas:

over the real world, because this isn't a game that's designed for

Lucas:

realism it's designed for balance.

Lucas:

So one of the things that I always like to think of the bag of holding is this is an

Lucas:

item that enables us to ignore encumbrance rules so that we can not spend 30 minutes

Lucas:

of our weekly session figuring out right.

Lucas:

You know, counting pounds.

Lucas:

And so then, you know, that's how the bag of holding got here.

Lucas:

And then we started to ask a lot of questions about extra dimensional spaces.

Lucas:

And I think what happens when you put them together is us throwing up our

Lucas:

hands and saying, all right, this is no longer helpful, so they explode.

Steve Myers:

well.

Steve Myers:

So we streamlined that process in, in my games I was running them by

Steve Myers:

saying, all right, we won't do that.

Steve Myers:

And in exchange, you guys have a coin purse of infinite holding.

Steve Myers:

The coin purse can only take coins.

Steve Myers:

They have to be of a printed denomination that exists within the world.

Steve Myers:

is the only thing they can go in there and it will automatically

Steve Myers:

exchange it based on currency.

Lucas:

Oh

Steve Myers:

all, yeah, that, that way I could make it easy

Steve Myers:

to not have to deal with all of that, because again, I hate math.

Steve Myers:

I'm not here for math, I'm here for storytelling.

Steve Myers:

And as soon as math gets in the way, I'm not going to enjoy it.

Steve Myers:

I

Rebecca Gray:

ignoring.

Steve Myers:

My first DM did not.

Steve Myers:

My first DM was big on encumbrance rules and I, as a had to deal with that.

Steve Myers:

Like I was a

Lucas:

Oh

Steve Myers:

to sneak out a treasure chest full of stuff by being

Lucas:

Uh

Lucas:

huh.

Steve Myers:

it's a suit of heavy armor guys.

Steve Myers:

I don't know what you want.

Steve Myers:

It's armor in there.

Steve Myers:

We carry it out for me.

Steve Myers:

I'm too weak to physically carry out this treasure.

Steve Myers:

Please it for me.

Lucas:

Yeah.

Lucas:

I mean, that would prevent your rogues from putting a, you know, a massive oil

Lucas:

painted portrait of great value into their pocket and then sneaking out the window.

Lucas:

So, you know, there's,

Steve Myers:

Yeah.

Steve Myers:

That is also true.

Lucas:

there's a level at which some of this is useful.

Lucas:

And I think we've gotten that we've gotten the Arrowhead of total destruction at the

Lucas:

limit of which, you know, by, by taking some of these quality of life improvements

Lucas:

and then asking the kinds of questions, they were never meant to withstand.

Steve Myers:

Yeah.

Steve Myers:

Yeah.

Steve Myers:

Yeah.

Steve Myers:

I think that everyone wanted game to be as streamlined as

Steve Myers:

possible and not have problems.

Steve Myers:

And then we had to push the envelope.

Rebecca Gray:

I mean, but that's the natural thing when it comes to a lot

Rebecca Gray:

of, a lot of D&D is people go, but what if I did this, which is the brilliant

Rebecca Gray:

part about D&D is that people can go.

Rebecca Gray:

But, but what if I, but what if I, there could a bunch of swords in my bag of

Rebecca Gray:

holding, which would a rift in the bag of holding, but I knew exactly where in the

Rebecca Gray:

Astro plane, my bag of holding would rift to, and I put a portal on the other side

Rebecca Gray:

and all of those swords would go shooting out of the portal and into the dragons.

Steve Myers:

Yeah, that's your

Rebecca Gray:

welcome new cheese, birthday.

Lucas:

the idea here is the wireless troll.

Lucas:

And this one only works because we have DNDs picture of trolls

Lucas:

as almost fungus people.

Jeremy Vine:

Yeah, I feel instead of a troll, a probably

Jeremy Vine:

a better example is Wolverine.

Jeremy Vine:

I'm going into and going, well, maybe even Deadpool.

Jeremy Vine:

That's a, another good example of this idea that no matter how severe

Jeremy Vine:

the injury, eventually you'll be regenerating from a certain point.

Jarrod Jahoda:

Yeah.

Jarrod Jahoda:

So the idea is that eventually, somehow your party kills a troll.

Jarrod Jahoda:

You then take the troll and chop it up into exactly equal pieces.

Lucas:

Precision is important.

Jarrod Jahoda:

Yeah.

Jarrod Jahoda:

Because the way that in some fantasy settings, trolls work, as they regenerate

Jarrod Jahoda:

from the largest leftover piece.

Jeremy Vine:

And the idea of the wireless troll is essentially that

Jeremy Vine:

trolls regenerate a lot unless they take fire or acid damage.

Jeremy Vine:

As a fun aside, they believe this is because the troll god will eat you

Jeremy Vine:

when you die if you have been burned because you're ready to cook or if

Jeremy Vine:

you've already been half digested.

Jeremy Vine:

Uh, so he's fine with that.

Jeremy Vine:

And that's why trolls believed that they are only vulnerable for these things

Jeremy Vine:

because otherwise they grow back there.

Jeremy Vine:

Okay.

Jeremy Vine:

And this idea that if you are on a journey, uh, you cut off a finger

Jeremy Vine:

or a hand or something of the trial, and it will grow the hand back.

Jarrod Jahoda:

So by cutting them all up into like one inch cubes or

Jarrod Jahoda:

whatever, which how anyone would know to do this is a, like a really

Jarrod Jahoda:

high nature check in my opinion.

Jarrod Jahoda:

And then you like leave pieces or leave a piece with like someone you

Jarrod Jahoda:

really like to let them know, or maybe you have multiple pieces that

Jarrod Jahoda:

you leave and you like from different trolls and you like tag them all.

Jarrod Jahoda:

So, you know, which troll goes to which person, right?

Jarrod Jahoda:

The idea being that if they ever need you and they're in dire straights,

Jarrod Jahoda:

they just cut up their small piece of troll, which then your piece

Jarrod Jahoda:

of troll begins regenerating.

Jarrod Jahoda:

And because it's growing bigger, you realize that.

Jarrod Jahoda:

And you're like, oh, Bob needs us back in Bob town.

Jarrod Jahoda:

And so you can go back to Bob town.

Jarrod Jahoda:

So it's like this, it's like a more involved in less efficient

Jarrod Jahoda:

way of like the sending spell.

Jeremy Vine:

But you carry that, that troll hand with you, that

Jeremy Vine:

stumpy hand and keep it in a bag.

Jeremy Vine:

And if your followers need to get a message to you urgently, what they

Jeremy Vine:

can do is tell the troll this cause that you've got them captured.

Jeremy Vine:

Apparently if you've been able to cut up the hand, they kill the troll and

Jeremy Vine:

cut them into tiny, tiny little bits.

Jeremy Vine:

And then the hand that you have of the troll is the largest piece of the troll.

Jeremy Vine:

So that's what regenerates, that's what grows the troll again.

Jeremy Vine:

And now it can tell you the message.

Jeremy Vine:

And I can see that working.

Jeremy Vine:

I like that idea of honestly, Wolverine being able to do that.

Jeremy Vine:

Well, you got to have a certain amount of body left and it's like, great.

Jeremy Vine:

That's that's the bit that, uh, I mean, even I'm going to doctor who, I mean, I

Jeremy Vine:

feel that's something that happened in the David Tennant run that I had got chopped

Jeremy Vine:

off and they were able to grow a new

Lucas:

whole deal.

Jeremy Vine:

Grow a new doctor from just a hand.

Jeremy Vine:

And it's the, kind of the same idea that, but what level does

Jeremy Vine:

the memory get maintained as a dungeon master is so ripe for abuse.

Jeremy Vine:

So ripe for abuse, that the fact that you're keeping a captive troll

Jeremy Vine:

I mean, this is where the ethical concern start to come up for me.

Jeremy Vine:

Like where do you draw the line of, uh, trolls are, trolls are kind of evil

Jeremy Vine:

for the most part, but not necessarily.

Jeremy Vine:

It's a very D&D thing.

Jeremy Vine:

Cause I don't think trolls always have these regenerative ability in, in mythos,

Jeremy Vine:

in the folklore that we have in our world.

Jeremy Vine:

The trolls are the three Billy Goats, Gruff.

Jeremy Vine:

Oh, hide under bridges and I attack people.

Jeremy Vine:

Um, I mean, if you look at Discworld, which I usually do, trolls are not

Jeremy Vine:

even, flesh and blood , they are stone and they're just super tough.

Jeremy Vine:

They're not regenerative.

Jeremy Vine:

You can damage them with a pickax, but uh, you're not going to be able to like

Jeremy Vine:

patch it back up with plaster later on.

Jarrod Jahoda:

So I think it's hilarious as hell, and really, ingenious in

Jarrod Jahoda:

a way, but it's built entirely off of meta knowledge, you know, um,

Lucas:

break that down for me.

Jarrod Jahoda:

So the meta knowledge being like, oh, well, trolls regenerate from

Jarrod Jahoda:

the largest pieces in fantasy setting XYZ.

Jarrod Jahoda:

Right?

Jarrod Jahoda:

That's the meta knowledge.

Jarrod Jahoda:

If you want your ranger to be able to figure that out, well, they are going

Jarrod Jahoda:

to have to have whatever creature type trolls are in your setting as

Jarrod Jahoda:

their favored enemy in like five V.

Jarrod Jahoda:

I think they are giants by default.

Lucas:

Yeah, they are some, they're this weird sort of fungal variant of giant.

Jarrod Jahoda:

Yeah.

Jarrod Jahoda:

So your favored enemy would have to be giants.

Jarrod Jahoda:

Number one, number two, you have to be proficient in nature.

Jarrod Jahoda:

And number three, you would have to roll like a 30 nature check to figure this out.

Jarrod Jahoda:

Right.

Jarrod Jahoda:

Which is possible.

Jarrod Jahoda:

But then I would require like a 30 survival check add five days to chop

Jarrod Jahoda:

it up into all these little pieces.

Jarrod Jahoda:

What are you gonna do with the rest of the pieces?

Jarrod Jahoda:

Because if any piece gets cut up damaged, eaten by a bird, then other

Jarrod Jahoda:

than another piece will start growing.

Jarrod Jahoda:

So you have to do that.

Jarrod Jahoda:

Oh, you just burn all the other pieces, like, okay, maybe that's possible,

Jarrod Jahoda:

but if you bury them, maybe they all like, just stick back together

Jarrod Jahoda:

and then you get a mutated troll and your pieces are in dirt anyway.

Jarrod Jahoda:

So it's a fun idea.

Jarrod Jahoda:

And there's ways to like really mess with them if they want to put the time into it.

Jarrod Jahoda:

Um, so I really liked the idea.

Jarrod Jahoda:

It's so creative, but also I want them to try, but I also

Jarrod Jahoda:

don't want them to succeed.

Rebecca Gray:

Okay.

So here's my issue with that:

at what, at what point, at what point

So here's my issue with that:

does the finger of the troll not count anymore as part of the troll?

So here's my issue with that:

I would say for me, gosh, I love this.

Steve Myers:

I would say

Rebecca Gray:

for me, Either A, once the troll regrows his

Rebecca Gray:

finger, it doesn't work anymore.

Rebecca Gray:

B that trolls are like earthworms and the finger, once far enough

Rebecca Gray:

away from the original troll, will just start regenerating anyway.

Jeremy Vine:

And at what point does it become you?

Jeremy Vine:

It's a little bit of Theseus' Boat as well.

Jeremy Vine:

It's like which one is the, is the, you?

Jeremy Vine:

Oh, the Ship of Theseus, I should say.

Danilo Vujevic:

Like in the example, it's that they start growing from

Danilo Vujevic:

the finger, which, which implies I kind of have to regenerate a brain.

Danilo Vujevic:

And at which point is it the same troll or is it a different troll?

Danilo Vujevic:

And they

Lucas:

oh yeah.

Danilo Vujevic:

and the memories and surely they have

Danilo Vujevic:

a brain cause they're humanoid.

Danilo Vujevic:

So you would imagine their brain is in, not in their fingertip.

Danilo Vujevic:

Which is where memories are stored as far as we know.

Danilo Vujevic:

And I think it's broadly applicable to 99.9% of humanoids.

Danilo Vujevic:

Maybe that's what I would argue actually.

Danilo Vujevic:

Now I've, I've thought it out and spoken out, maybe in my world at

Danilo Vujevic:

the troll would regenerate at the fingertip, but just be like, ah, why

Danilo Vujevic:

have you bought me into this world?

Danilo Vujevic:

And just be like, this is a horrible experience and I'm, I I'm

Danilo Vujevic:

pissed and I know nothing about anything, cause I'm a neutral.

Danilo Vujevic:

which would be hilarious.

Danilo Vujevic:

I'd love to play that like a troll being born and there were eagerly

Danilo Vujevic:

waiting their message for it.

Danilo Vujevic:

Just to be like in agony.

Danilo Vujevic:

I was just angry at being born in such a horrible manner.

Jeremy Vine:

And I love the idea of a wireless troll of sending messages.

Jeremy Vine:

It's like, I feel this probably works in an evil campaign.

Jeremy Vine:

If you, if you want to show your players that somebody is a really bad guy, that

Jeremy Vine:

is what you have them, or you have them send, like they just send a hand and then

Jeremy Vine:

suddenly an entire troll pops out of it and goes, I've got a message for you.

Jeremy Vine:

What, what on earth is going on here?

Jeremy Vine:

And now they're going to find a troll too.

Jeremy Vine:

So.

Lucas:

Oh, yeah, of course naturally.

Jeremy Vine:

That's a good way to do the quantum ogre as well.

Jeremy Vine:

You just have them show up with like a little troll head that

Jeremy Vine:

suddenly pops up and you've got a full troll coming out of it.

Lucas:

Yeah.

Lucas:

Um, I call it the kick, the dog moment, like in the same way that the hero has to

Lucas:

save the cat, the villain has to kick the puppy and, uh, this would be a great way.

Lucas:

Like there's always that thing that villains do to let them

Lucas:

know it's okay to hate them.

Lucas:

Usually it's they're hard on their lackeys.

Jeremy Vine:

Crossing that moral event horizons, like how could

Jeremy Vine:

you be mean to that person?

Jeremy Vine:

We thought you were a good, bad guy, but you're actually just fully evil.

Jeremy Vine:

Whereas I like to have the pet the dog moment, uh, which is not basically

Jeremy Vine:

the opposite where you have the villain, do something nice and show

Jeremy Vine:

that they do have on a insert in regards to just their beliefs, uh, more

Jeremy Vine:

important than the rest of the world.

Jarrod Jahoda:

I would probably have it as like a big, bad wizard

Jarrod Jahoda:

type character who has essentially little jars filled with bits of

Jarrod Jahoda:

trolls from all of his lieutenants.

Jarrod Jahoda:

Like that's how you became a Lieutenant for him, right?

Jarrod Jahoda:

Like you had to go out and slay a troll and dice it up.

Jarrod Jahoda:

And like, you don't know why he doesn't tell you until afterwards.

Jarrod Jahoda:

And he's like, all right, you're a Lieutenant.

Jarrod Jahoda:

Here's your bit of troll.

Jarrod Jahoda:

This is what you do with it.

Jarrod Jahoda:

And this is what I do with it.

Jarrod Jahoda:

And if it ever starts growing, you better report here on the double with

Jarrod Jahoda:

all your armies or whatever it is.

Jarrod Jahoda:

And so like all, and maybe that's the adventuring hook.

Jarrod Jahoda:

Every time they defeat one of the lieutenants, they find like this

Jarrod Jahoda:

glass vial that just has like a one inch cube of rotting flesh in it.

Jarrod Jahoda:

No reason.

Jarrod Jahoda:

And eventually they identify that it's a troll and then they learn that it's like,

Jarrod Jahoda:

oh, they're all from different trolls.

Jarrod Jahoda:

And you know, so it's like this adventure look like who is doing this and why?

Lucas:

Yeah, this is messed up.

Lucas:

We got,

Jarrod Jahoda:

Yeah.

Jarrod Jahoda:

I don't know who's doing this, but they got some issues they need a counselor.

Jarrod Jahoda:

Meanwhile, like troll wizard here in the back is like, yes, yes.

Jarrod Jahoda:

Succumb to my plans!

Lucas:

Oh man, can I put troll wizard on the list?

Lucas:

Cause I want to do that.

Jarrod Jahoda:

Yeah.

Jarrod Jahoda:

You know, there's like Grushek the Troll Wizard who has like become the predominant

Jarrod Jahoda:

troll in his area because he's just killed all the other trolls to use them

Jarrod Jahoda:

as early warning triggers or whatever.

Lucas:

Oh man.

Jarrod Jahoda:

I liked his idea.

Jarrod Jahoda:

I'm glad we've talked about this.

Jarrod Jahoda:

I'm going to use this.

Lucas:

If this becomes anything, like if you ever write that out, let me know.

Lucas:

I will play test the heck out of it.

Jarrod Jahoda:

I love it

Lucas:

I just.

Lucas:

So many of these are, are better off in the DM's toolbox.

Jarrod Jahoda:

Now.

Jarrod Jahoda:

And in five V specifically, player characters are super powerful.

Jarrod Jahoda:

So why would you give them something like that?

Jarrod Jahoda:

Leave that as like a bad guy to give the bad guy an edge, you know,

Lucas:

Yeah.

Lucas:

And talking of like morally ambiguous villains, um, who do you have to be to,

Lucas:

to even to conceive of this and then, you know, muscle through and actually do it?

Jarrod Jahoda:

uh, I think you have to have been picked on in

Jarrod Jahoda:

a playground a lot and have a, a very vengeful sense of justice.

Danilo Vujevic:

Out of everything we've discussed, this is the most plausible

Danilo Vujevic:

and the most grounded, I think, as you put it, because it is apart from one very

Danilo Vujevic:

literal rules as written, utilization of the rules is otherwise completely mundane.

Danilo Vujevic:

Um, the only caveats would be this again, it's always, it's always because

Danilo Vujevic:

of the implication for the waste 90 fans out there, uh, with me and.

Danilo Vujevic:

You know, when my players to do this, then there might be some questions

Danilo Vujevic:

around like kind of the grim reality of what they are attempting to do and

Danilo Vujevic:

any witnesses and so on and so on.

Danilo Vujevic:

Otherwise, no, it, you know, if it were a big, bad evil

Danilo Vujevic:

guy then yeah, it's plausible.

Danilo Vujevic:

I think what else that alone is it's plausible, but

Danilo Vujevic:

unlikely for various reasons.

Danilo Vujevic:

One being is that I hope my player characters wouldn't get there

Danilo Vujevic:

because not that they will have to be heroes, but even pushing it.

Danilo Vujevic:

This is pushing the definition of heroics.

Danilo Vujevic:

And secondly, my specific big, bad would not resort to something

Danilo Vujevic:

is, beneath him as, as well.

Danilo Vujevic:

This is, um, And I would like to think that many other big bads would

Danilo Vujevic:

have more sophisticated means of long range communicate, uh, that doesn't

Danilo Vujevic:

revolve harrowing experience even for the most gruesome of goblins.

Lucas:

Can we call this counter cheese?

Lucas:

Like I see your cheese and I raise you more cheese.

Rebecca Gray:

here is stinkier cheese.

Rebecca Gray:

Steve's over here grimacing at me.

Steve Myers:

Well, I don't like it.

Steve Myers:

Like three, five had clones as well.

Steve Myers:

Like there was a clone smell in the psionics, so you could actually make

Steve Myers:

clones of people and that all just, I can't man, I can't my brain, my brain

Steve Myers:

refuses to be involved in any of that.

Steve Myers:

It's it's a nightmare.

Steve Myers:

It is a logistical nightmare.

Steve Myers:

What if you're all the same exact size?

Steve Myers:

All of the cubes, same exact size.

Steve Myers:

What happens.

Rebecca Gray:

Yeah, I don't know.

Rebecca Gray:

Could you cube something?

Rebecca Gray:

All the, the exact same size that let's be real is isn't that

Lucas:

Yeah to what

Steve Myers:

I, imagine I could get two cubes out of it.

Steve Myers:

Two cubes, the exact same size, and then burn the rest of it.

Lucas:

Just statistically speaking

Steve Myers:

two fingers.

Steve Myers:

Exact same size, both.

Steve Myers:

Yeah.

Steve Myers:

Like here, here's where we're at.

Steve Myers:

And now, now what happens?

Steve Myers:

I don't want to like, yeah, no, I know this is no, I'm sorry guys.

Steve Myers:

Just it doesn't work.

Steve Myers:

That's not the way trolls work.

Steve Myers:

You guys are wrong on so many levels.

Steve Myers:

You've kept a troll captive.

Lucas:

Your cheese scientists were too busy wondering whether they

Lucas:

could to ask whether they should.

Lucas:

Thanks for listening to Making a Monster.

Lucas:

If this episode has entertained or enlightened you in any way,

Lucas:

please share it with the people who play D and D with you.

Lucas:

Your recommendation will go a long way to helping people trust

Lucas:

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Lucas:

And it's a real gift to me and the creators I feature.

Lucas:

You could also leave me a like, or a five star review on Spotify, iTunes,

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or your podcast player of choice.

Lucas:

It's a small thing, but it really does help new listeners discover the show.

Lucas:

If you really like what I'm doing, you can support me through the book of

Lucas:

extinction, a project I'm creating with Mage Hand Press that enables D and D

Lucas:

players to make a real difference in the climate crisis and rapidly accelerating

Lucas:

mass extinction by telling the stories of the animals that we have already lost.

Lucas:

There are already five episodes of Making a Monster about

Lucas:

the creatures in that book.

Lucas:

So set this podcast feed to newest first and take a journey with me into a world

Lucas:

wilder and more fascinating than you probably thought it could be special.

Lucas:

Thanks to my collaborators on these exploit monsters episodes.

Jeremy Vine:

I'm Jeremy Vine, I'm a professional dungeon master.

Jeremy Vine:

You can find me on social media on Twitter at Talumin, T A L U M I N,

Jeremy Vine:

or you can listen to my podcasts Tell Me About Your D&D Character,

Jeremy Vine:

which is on SoundCloud or D&D and TV

Jarrod Jahoda:

My name is Jarrod Jahoda, and you can find me on any podcast

Jarrod Jahoda:

platform under Mid-level Adventurers.

Jarrod Jahoda:

I'm one half of the creative team.

Jarrod Jahoda:

Matt is the other half, or you can catch Matt and I on Newly Forged,

Jarrod Jahoda:

which is our Twitch stream D&D game.

Jarrod Jahoda:

It's a homebrew game set in a post-apocalyptic magical world.

Jarrod Jahoda:

And, uh, you can follow us on Instagram, Twitter at mid LVL

Jarrod Jahoda:

adventure to keep updated.

Jarrod Jahoda:

And we've recently started releasing our podcast episodes on YouTube as well.

Danilo Vujevic:

I'm Danilo, the host/producer/editor of Thinking

Danilo Vujevic:

Critically, a D&D discussion podcast where we take a single word or

Danilo Vujevic:

topic and discuss what it means in the D&D and wider TTRPG framework.

Danilo Vujevic:

that has been going on now for almost 65 episodes and a year and a bit weekly drops

Danilo Vujevic:

everything from your esoteric, left-field, weird things that you would never

Danilo Vujevic:

attribute to D&D all the way to encounters and experience, and much more obvious

Danilo Vujevic:

topics, including soft skills, such as friendship and social and meta things such

Danilo Vujevic:

as podcasts, which was a weird itself.

Danilo Vujevic:

Naval Naval gazing.

Danilo Vujevic:

One to record.

Rebecca Gray:

Hello, I'm Rebecca

Steve Myers:

and I'm Steven.

Rebecca Gray:

And we are from A House Sivis Broadcasting Eberron

Rebecca Gray:

A Chronicle of Echoes podcast.

Rebecca Gray:

It's a very different kind of podcast.

Rebecca Gray:

We're a little bit scripted, a little bit improv and a whole lot of fun.

Rebecca Gray:

So we hope that you'll stop in and check us out and find out what

Rebecca Gray:

it's like when D&D meets radio.

Lucas:

We'll be back next week.

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